Much like “flying cars”, atomic powered cars were a campy futuristic meme of the 50’s, for example, there was the Ford Nucleon concept:
From Wikipedia: The Ford Nucleon was a scale model concept car developed by Ford Motor Company in 1958 as a design on how a nuclear-powered car might look. The design did not include an internal-combustion engine, rather, the vehicle was to be powered by a small nuclear reactor in the rear of the vehicle, based on the assumption that this would one day be possible based on shrinking sizes. The car was to use a steam engine powered by uranium fission.
It looks a little bit like the Bat mobile from the rear:
Now it looks like we might actually see a real one, using Thorium rather than Uranium, which not only is safer to manage, you don’t have to worry about some terrorist car-jacking your ride for fissile materials.
Here’s the new concept. Thorium could be used in conjunction with a laser and mini turbines to easily produce enough electricity to power a vehicle. When thorium is heated, it generates further heat surges, allowing it to be coupled with mini turbines to produce steam that can then be used to generate electricity. It is said that 1 gram of thorium produces the equivalent energy of 7,500 gallons of gasoline.
Here’s the headline from Ward’s Auto:
U.S. Researcher Preparing Prototype Cars Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium
By Keith Nuthall
A U.S. company says it is getting closer to putting prototype electric cars on the road that will be powered by the heavy-metal thorium.
Thorium is a naturally occurring, slightly radioactive rare-earth element discovered in 1828 by the Swedish chemist Jons Jakob Berzelius, who named it after Thor, the Norse god of thunder. It is found in small amounts in most rocks and soils, where it is about three times more abundant than uranium.
…
The key to the system developed by inventor Charles Stevens, CEO and chairman of Connecticut-based Laser Power Systems, is that when silvery metal thorium is heated by an external source, it becomes so dense its molecules give off considerable heat.
Small blocks of thorium generate heat surges that are configured as a thorium-based laser, Stevens tells Ward’s. These create steam from water within mini-turbines, generating electricity to drive a car.
A 250 MW (I think this is a typo, they probably mean KW – Anthony) unit weighing about 500 lbs. (227 kg) would be small and light enough to drop under the hood of a car, he says.
Jim Hedrick, a specialist on industrial minerals – and until last year the U.S. Geological Survey’s senior advisor on rare earths – tells Ward’s the idea is “both plausible and sensible.”
…
Stevens says his company should be able to place a prototype on the road within two years. The firm has 40 employees and operates out of an in-house research workshop.
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Hedrick, the industrial minerals expert, says 7,500 gallons is “way more gasoline than an average person uses in a year. Switching to thorium-driven cars would make the U.S. energy self-sufficient, and carbon emissions would plummet.
“It would eliminate the major need for oil,” he says. “The main (remaining) demand would be for asphalt for roadways, natural gas, plastics and lubricants.”
Full story here.
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I want one. 8 grams of Thorium in a V shaped reactor block. The new atomic V-8. The only downside is that I won’t be able to overhaul the engine myself as I would imagine the Thorium would be in a sealed power module. I might add, that this endeavor sounds a little bit like a Tucker, long on promise, short on delivery.
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ADDENDUM:
I published this story late Friday night at 1AM and then went on a trip the next day, I was surprised to learn that people missed my cues and thought I took the Ward’s article seriously. I thought the headline and first sentence set the tone with “flying cars” and “campy”.
Few seemed to understand the Tucker comment at the end either:
“I might add, that this endeavor sounds a little bit like a Tucker, long on promise, short on delivery.”
The Tucker was a car sold on futuristic promises in the mind of a man that hadn’t actually designed or built the car. Preston Tucker floated the concept in Science Illustrated magazine in December 1946 followed by a full page advertisement in March 1947 in many national newspapers claiming “How 15 years of testing produced the car of the year”. He was immediately overwhelmed with pre-orders for a car that didn’t even exist on paper. Hence my comment: “I want one”.
Tucker then got a bunch of investors together to try to fill orders, and got some government help with loan of a WWII supply factory that had been idled after the war. The factory eventually produced 50 cars, but it was too late, as many had lost confidence and he was embroiled in an SEC investigation and court trial over investor funds.
The cars finally produced didn’t have many of the futuristic features that had been promised early on. Some were there, and Tucker was credited with inspiring improved auto safety as a result.
I thought my reference to a Tucker automobile was about as strong a label as anyone could make as the promises of this thorium car being hyped. The parallel seemed obvious.
I guess next time I’ll have to be more explicit. with a /sarc tag – Anthony
Anthony: I’d give you 50-to-1 that this is BS, if the question could be decided in a reasonable amount of time. Not for a large sum – I’d put my $100 against your $2. Unfortunately, I don’t think it can be resolved in a reasonable amount of time
I want to avoid libel here, so let me say that my opinion is nothing but opinion, purely my own, and relatively uninformed, at that.
Supposedly Stevens’ work is based Carlo Rubbia’s “energy amplifier” idea. I believe that the latter is legitimate, but some of Stevens’ writings don’t seem to have a lot to do with it, and seem to me incoherent with a generous admixture of technical gobbledy-gook.
I ask myself: Why do I quickly understand Rubbia’s idea but see nothing but headaches in trying to understand Stevens’ writing? I’m not a physicist – far from it! – but I just don’t see the sense in talking about electrons and positrons, as Stevens’ does, when Rubbia was talking about a proton accelerator knocking neutrons out of nuclei. I could say more like that, but since I’m not a scientist, I don’t think it’s my place to do so.
As I recall, the 1960s TV Batmobile was powered by an atomic turbine, that was loaded by the reactor in the Batcave. Jill St John fell into it in one of the first episodes ( the reactor, not the Batmobile ).
I was just reading that the actual Ford Futura car itself had a gas turbine engine, but only carried enough fuel for 15 seconds of running ! Sounds like a Tesla !
NOT plausible. I am dissapointed someone did not check (enthalpy of water for a steam turbine!)
Just the volume of water you need for a 250 MW plant is enormous. A 250 MW plant needs about 1-1.5 Billion gallons of water per year for the steam turbine and cooling, depending on thermodymanic efficiency … roughly at least 125,000 gallons per hour… or 2000 gallons per minute. Thats a little under 1/2 acre-foot of water.
250 MW under the hood of a car is not plausible to me, unless they’ve figured out a new steam turbine, or some other novel way to generate the electricity. Even a natural gas plant (where the gas drives a rotating turbine directly and also has secondary systems to utilize waste heat) sits on 00s of acres.
If this were true you could power the entire middle atlantic / new england area (eastern seaboard virginia and north), ~200,000 MW peak during summer from 800 car sized engines in a parking lot.
250 MW? Cold fusion. or a typo
http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/rwpg/rpgm_rpts/2001483396.pdf
-1 for credibility. This on the heels of Willis ignorant comments in his post about Native Americans. This blog is slipping.
and who is the fool who pays money for this fraud?
“Now it looks like we might actually see a real one, using Thorium rather than Uranium”
ROFLMAO
RobL says:
“This is pure BS. A huge amount of experimentation has never revealed that altering temperature and pressure (even using lasers and other things with ‘sciencey’ names) has no effect on decay rates. ”
Did someone try magnets? 😉
The key to the system developed by inventor Charles Stevens, CEO and chairman of Connecticut-based Laser Power Systems, is that when silvery metal thorium is heated by an external source, it becomes so dense its molecules give off considerable heat.
Small blocks of thorium generate heat surges that are configured as a thorium-based laser, Stevens tells Ward’s. These create steam from water within mini-turbines, generating electricity to drive a car.
A 250 MW unit weighing about 500 lbs. (227 kg) would be small and light enough to drop under the hood of a car, he says.
Molecules of the element thorium? Oh, really.
http://laserturbinepower.com/
Thorium as a laser fuel is a natural Alpha & beta emitter and lases very easily. What makes the Phoenix 2000 MaxFelaser systems differs from “reactors” or other lasers is that it is an “EMC” Accelerator driven non-critical reaction stimulating thorium as a Alfa-beta emitter. In nuclear physics, an energy amplifier is a novel type of nuclear power reactor, a subcritical reactor, in which an EMC energetic field is used to stimulate a reaction, which in turn releases enough HEAT energy to flash a working fluid to high temp and presser driving a high speed turbine-generator set. This is the basic working principles of the MaxFelasers. The EMC particle accelerator in the MaxFelaser is an electro magnetic induction coil operating at high frequency to propel the Thorium fuel Matrix to high energy levels and to contain them. The MaxFelaser uses this quantum mechanical properties of an external magnetic field to excite the electrons, the electrons (particles) collide with other particles and are diffracted as light. While an electron is undergoing acceleration, it can absorb or radiate energy in the form of HEAT and photons. It can be annihilated by a collision with a positron, the electron’s antiparticle, or an electron–positron pair can be produced from gamma ray photons with a combined energy at least equal to the energy at rest of the particles. (An ordinary CRT television set is a simple form of accelerator.) The EMC is a hybrid combination linear and circular accelerator, leaving an energy profit for power generation. The concept has more recently been referred to as an accelerator-driven system ADS-EMC MaxFelaser based on Thorium presents a solution to the global energy crisis and could help ease political tension globally.
A magic process that sounds like someone to a bunch of words from a physics text and stuck in them in a blender yielding a nonsensical description in terms of physics.
Two junk pseudo-science articles posted to WUWT in August and the month is not yet half way over.
How disappointing that WUWT is so determined to undermine it’s own credibility.
Watt’s up with that?
Suggest running such alternative energy claims by the physics department at the local university before posting.
Some results seem to indicate that radioactive decay rates can depend on temperature.
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24307/
Junk science? Controversy? Dunno….
I read the article in Wards, It specifically states that the process is sub-critical and does not result in U-235 as a by-product. I’d love for some of our resident engineers to get more information about the process and evaluate it. Of course, the EPA, Department of the Interior and other eco-fascists probably will not let the Thorium be mined.
Simple typo on “250 MW unit”.
That should have been a lower case M. Corrected
250 mW unit
The 250 milliwatt unit produces enough power over its lifetime to get a pissant’s motorcycle halfway around the inside of a Cheerio.
Did April 1st get delayed to August 13th this year?
FAIL
And who is that fool funding this obvious fraud?
Correction, a 250 MW unit would power an (Chinese) aircraft carrier. FIFY hee hee
Once again I am supprised and disapointed buy the vast majority of posts in this article.
I have a certificate in Electrical Engineering and have been involved in the Electrical industry for the past 40 years.
The claim of 250 MW is a total joke and an obvious error that is not worth commenting on.
A 1 MW diesel electric generator will not fit inside an average house.
Yet most of the 53 responses are hung up on this single issue.
I did not see any responses (correct me if I missed one ) saying. ” Hay, you’ve made a mistake in the power output. What is the correct number ? and are you able to substantiate your claim with current research ”
They make a claim for a working prototype in 2 years. Now while I agree it sounds to good to be true – the proof is in the pudding.
Science is advancing exponentially and there will be major break throughs in the next few years.
I believe the world is at a ” tipping point ” that has nothing to do with Warming.
Too many people are looking at alternative energy sources and something will be found.
Look at the past. What makes you think we are at the top.
I would pretty much agree with Smoking Frog. The writings do indeed appear to be gobbledygook. I came away with the distinct impression that they had been produced by a Markov chain random text generator that had been trained on a bunch of physics and engineering reports. 🙂
If you look at the Wikipedia article about spallation, you can come away with the idea that lasers could be used to produce neutrons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spallation — but that’s due to the poor organization and lack of depth of the article, not any actual physical process. Laser spallation produces dust, not neutrons. There are some experiments underway about accelerator-driven reactors with “tiny” accelerators, but tiny in this context that means ones the size of a small house instead of a small town.
Must be a 10,000 gallon water tank in a little red wagon hooked to the back, eh?
Anthony,
Thank you for bringing back memories of my youth. I remember articles like this in True Magazine and Popular Science.
.Seriously, I do enjoy these diversions.
Beside, these articles are no more nonsensical that the usual left wing apocalyptic fantasies carried as “news” by the “main stream media”. Except here the Gentle Reader can point out the fallacies.
Thanks again for all that you do!
Steamboat Jack (Jon Jewett’s evil twin)
PS,
In regards to the horsepower for an Aircraft Carrier. The practical upper limit for horsepower applied to a propeller is around 60,000. An Aircraft Carrier typically has four propellers so will use energy at a rate of 240,000 horsepower. At 746 watts/horsepower, the 500 lb. power unit noted in the article would not quite power an aircraft carrier as auxiliary loads such as the steam catapults take considerable energy. Perhaps they meant milliwatts instead of megawatts?
I read through the Wards article and it’s a bizarre collection it’s fission/it’s not fission. For example – “Stevens agrees, emphasizing his system is “subcritical.” This means no nuclear reaction occurs within the thorium. It remains in the same state and is not turned into uranium 233.” Subcritical implies nuclear reaction s are going on, it just that the feedback is less than one. Nuclear power plants run at a ratio of 1.000.
I chased web leads for Jim Hedrick to Hedrick Consultants Inc in Virginia but didn’t find an Email address for him. At least he is real, did work for the USGS, and is a rare earths expert. Anyone know him?
“It is said that 1 gram of thorium produces the equivalent energy of 7,500 gallons of gasoline.” That turns out to be 17 MWh. I had hoped it would be 250 MWh, and be a clue where that bogus 250 MW figure (and unit) came from. Hmm, 8gm – 139 MWh. Not close enough.
The note “thorium is heated by an external source, it becomes so dense its molecules give off considerable heat” is interesting because I read something about density changes. It turns out that was for Plutonium, which has three allotropes and different density which makes machining it difficult. (Not to mention it’s flammable and you really don’t want to inhale the smoke).
I was thinking he may want to use power from phase changes. People used to split granite slabs by drilling holes, filling them with water, and wait for winter’s cold to freeze the water. The expansion would be enough to crack the granite.
Unfortunately, a large force over a small distance is not much energy, and increasing density means shrinking, and that’s tougher to get energy from. All in all, it hard to give this guy a benefit of the doubt. Motl would be much harsher. The law of thermodynamics still apply, I see no way this can work without fission being the ultimate energy source. In fact, if you leave the car body out of this and replace the transmission with an electrical generator that powers the laser, then presto – perpetual motion device.
The reason I wrote my first post on the Rossi reactor was because there was a public demonstration that produced enough energy that it would be difficult to fake. I won’t follow this until there is a similar demonstration.
“I told you not to try to change the oil. Now there is thorium all over the driveway.”
Her are yet two more reasons this screams “scam”.
1 ) “when silvery metal thorium is heated by an external source … Thorium has highest melting point of all oxides at 3,182° F.”
Only a charlatan would describe a processes using METALLIC thorium, but then hype the properties of thorium oxide.
2) “admitting that developing a portable and usable turbine and generator is proving to be a tougher task than the laser-thorium unit.”
Turbines and generators have been commercially available for 100+ years! If the technology really worked, the inventors would have started using it for small-to-mid scale stationary energy generation using off-the-shelf componenets, rather than hyping a rather impractical initial use like cars.
My opinion — this is 99.999 % scam.
Correction: will it blend?
A magic process that sounds like someone took a bunch of words from a physics text and stuck in them in a blender yielding a nonsensical description in terms of basic physics.
A few thoughts on this new technology-
1. Is the original source of this article, Ward’s Auto, owned by The Onion?
2. Whenever phrases like ‘thorium-based LASER’ show up, you are being scammed or entertained (cf Dr. Evil).
3. A 250MW power unit that weighs 500 pounds has the same credibility as power generation technology invented by Capt. Nemo.
4. “Jim Hedrick, a specialist on industrial minerals…” “Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium”.
Is the correct spelling of the last name Hendrix?
5. An appropriate acronym that applies to these types of breakthrough ‘technologies’ is FM- Fricking Magic.
This will be the world’s first car with the famous 200mpg carburetor.
If this were really feasible, the first application wouldn’t be cars, sensible and needed as much as it is, but stationary power production. It would revolutionize 3rd world energy….which is precisely why it won’t happen, even if true.
The major oil companies, power producers and vendor/suppliers won’t permit it, and it will be blocked by endless environmental, health, and safety questions. Don’t believe for a moment that I wouldn’t buy the power plant alone to stick in my garage and unplug the grid…if it’s that good.
I truly hope this is a viable power source…and economically feasible. But there’s too many red flags popping up….and so far this isn’t passing my smell test, scientifically or otherwise. The company has 40 employees and works in the garage. Ford and Toyota have what kind of resources to throw at it?? Never mind that this would revolutionize military vehicles and tactical support.
“when silvery metal thorium is heated by an external source, it becomes so dense its molecules give off considerable heat.”
Is this accurate? I’ve never known heat to increase density.
Her are yet two more reasons this screams “scam”.
1 ) “when silvery metal thorium is heated by an external source … Thorium has highest melting point of all oxides at 3,182° F.”
Only a charlatan would describe a processes using METALLIC thorium, but then hype the properties of thorium oxide.
2) “admitting that developing a portable and usable turbine and generator is proving to be a tougher task than the laser-thorium unit.”
Turbines and generators have been commercially available for 100+ years! If the technology really worked, the inventors would have started using it for small-to-mid scale stationary energy generation using off-the-shelf componenets, rather than hyping a rather impractical initial use like cars.
My opinion — this is 99.999 % scam. But at least I got a good laugh this morning.