Bastardi: Science and reality point away, not toward, CO2 as climate driver

Guest post by Joe Bastardi, WeatherBell

With the coming Gorathon to save the planet around the corner ( Sept 14) , my  stance on the AGW issue has been drawing more ire from those seeking to silence people like me that question their issue and plans. In response, I want the objective reader to hear more about my arguments made in a a brief interview on FOX News as to why I conclude CO2 is not causing changes of climate and the recent flurry of extremes of our planet. I brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics and LeChateliers principle.

The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred in many forms but can not be created or destroyed.

For the sake of argument, let’s assume those that believe CO2 is adding energy to the system are correct. Okay, how much? We have a gas that is .04% of the atmosphere that increases 1.5 ppm yearly and humans contribute 3-5% of that total yearly, which means the increase by humans is 1 part per 20 million. In a debate, someone argued just because it is small doesn’t mean it is not important. After all even a drop with 0.042 gm of arsenic could kill an adult. Yes but put the same drop in the ocean or a reservoir and no one dies or gets ill.

Then there is the energy budget. The amount of heat energy in the atmosphere is dwarfed by the energy in  y the oceans. Trying to measure the changes from a trace gas in the atmosphere, if it were shown to definitively play a role in change (and it never has), is a daunting task.

NASA satellites suggest that the heat the models say is trapped, is really escaping to space, that the ‘sensitivity’ of the atmosphere to CO2 is low and the model assumed positive feedbacks of water vapor and clouds are really negative. Even IPCC Lead Author Kevin Trenberth said “Climatologists are nowhere near knowing where the energy goes or what the effect of clouds is…the fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment, and it is a travesty that we can’t.”

We are told that the warming in the period of warming from 1800 was evidence of man-made global warming. They especially point to the warming from 1977 to 1998 which was shown by all measures and the fact that CO2 rose during those two decades. And we hear that this warming has to be man-made with statements like “what else could it be?”

However, correlation does not mean causation. Indeed inconveniently despite efforts to minimize or ignore it, the earth cooled from the 1940s to the late 1970s and warming ceased after 1998, even as CO2 rose at a steady pace. Some have been forced to admit some natural factors may play a role in this periodic cooling. If that is the case, why could these same natural factors play a key role in the warming periods too.

Ah, but here is where the 1st law works just fine. After a prolonged period of LACK OF SUNSPOT ACTIVITY, the world was quite cold around 1800. The ramping up of solar activity after 1800 to the grand maximum in the late twentieth century could be argued as the ultimate cause of any warming through the introduction of extra energy into the oceans, land and then the atmosphere.

The model projections that the warming would be accelerating due to CO2 build up are failing since the earth’s temps have leveled off the past 15 years while CO2 has continued to rise.

Then there is a little matter of real world observation of how work done affects the system it is being done on. When one pushes an empty cart and then stops pushing, the cart keeps moving until the work done on it is dissipated. How is it, that the earth’s temperature has leveled off, if CO2, the alleged warming driver continues to rise?

The answer is obvious. They have it backwards. It is the earth’s temperature (largely the ocean) which is driving the CO2 release into the atmosphere. That is what the ice cores tell us and recently that Salby showed using isotopes in an important peer review paper. These use real world observations not tinker toy models nor an 186 year old theory that has never been validated.

Finally, as to the matter of LeChateliers principle. The earth is always in a state of imbalance and weather is the way the imbalances are corrected in the atmosphere. Extreme weather occurs when factors that increase imbalances are occurring. The extremes represent an attempt to return to a state of equilibrium.

The recent flurry of severe weather –  for instance, record cold and snow, floods, tornadoes,, is much more likely to be a sign of cooling rather than warming. The observational data shows the earth’s mid levels have cooled dramatically and ocean heat content and atmospheric temperatures have been stable or declined. Cooling atmospheres are more unstable and produce greater contrasts and these contrasts drive storms, storms drive severe weather. A warmer earth produces a climate optimum with less extremes as we enjoyed in the late 20th century and other time in history when the great civilizations flourished.

Time will provide the answer. Over the next few decades, with the solar cycles and now the oceanic cycles changing towards states that favor cooling, there should be a drop in global temperatures as measured by objective satellite measurement, at least back to the levels they were in the 1970s, when we first started measuring them via an objective source. If temperatures warm despite these natural cycles, you carry the day. We won’t have to wait the full 20-30 year period. I believe we will have our answer before this decade is done.

UPDATE: I’m told that a follow up post – more technically oriented will follow sometime next week. Readers please note that the opinion expressed here is that of Mr. Bastardi, at his request. While you may or may not agree with it, discuss it without resorting to personal attacks as we so often see from the Romm’s and Tamino’s of the nether climate world. Also, about 3 hours after the original post, I added 3 graphics from Joe which should have been in the original, apologies.  – Anthony

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Richard S Courtney
August 16, 2011 10:10 am

Steve E and Robert Murphy:
It would help your case if you were to read what I wrote instead of blathering on with unfounded assertions.
Steve E, at August 16, 2011 at 7:33 am you say to me:
“The chart on the link below illustrates why stomata are not considered as accurate as direct samples of the atmosphere from bubbles in the ice.”
But at August 16, 2011 at 5:38 am I wrote:
“Firstly, and for clarity, I do not agree the ice core or the stomata data are definitive (as I have repeatedly stated on WUWT and elsewhere).”
I am NOT claiming that either the ice core or the stomata data are any good. I am claiming they both exist and that the stomata data have much better temporal resolution. I have repeatedly explained that the stomata data resolve for a single (growing) year but the ice core data resolve over decades.
And your chart provides error bars for the stomata data because there are several samples which enable such an estimate. There are no error bars on the ice core data because a single datum does not permit them to be calculated. So, the graph you provide shows exactly the opposite of what you say: It demonstrates why the stomata data are more accurate than the ice core data.
And the precision of the ice core data is completely unknown.
You, Slioch, and Robert Murphy are claiming the ice core data provide information that it is physically impossible for them to provide.
Science does not allow anybody to choose which data to accept without question and which data to ignore because it is inconvenient.
Robert Murphy, of course you can sample ice from a single year. I have repeatedly explained to you that the sample contains air which diffused through layers of the ice in the decades that the ice took to seal (the IPCC says 83 years). Diffusion occurs from regions of high concantration to regions of low concentration and, thus, reduces maxima and minima in the data set.
Please read what I write. Dispute it if you can, but please stop posting silly assertions that are refuted by what I have explained to you.
Richard

August 16, 2011 10:25 am

Regarding my observation that there is no evidence of global harm from the rise in CO2, SteveE says:
“You always bring up that argument, but what do you mean by global harm? harm to what? what do you mean by harm?”
SteveE, that is my challenge to you and to all other alarmists: show any global harm directly attributable to the rise in CO2. So far all I’ve heard is a cricket chorus.
And Robert Murphy says:
“The warming in the SH came before the rise in CO2, but the rise in CO2 came *before* the warming in the NH.”
Not really, Robert. There is very good correlation between the hemispheres: click
Robert continues:
“…we are pumping CO2 that had been locked out of the carbon cycle for hundreds of millions of years in the form of fossil fuels.”
So? If you can’t show any global harm from an increase in a tiny, beneficial trace gas, then there’s no problem – except in your mind. Is there?

Robert Murphy
August 16, 2011 11:01 am

“Not really, Robert. There is very good correlation between the hemispheres”
Of course there is good correlation, but that doesn’t mean both hemispheres started warming at the same time. The paper you posted here said that the CO2 rose before the warming in the NH. Did you read the paper? :
“This sequence of events is still in full agreement with the idea that CO2 plays,
through its greenhouse effect, a key role in amplifying the initial orbital forcing. First, the
800-year time lag is short in comparison with the total duration of the temperature and CO2
increases (5000 years). Second, the CO2 increase clearly precedes the Northern Hemisphere
deglaciation”
http://icebubbles.ucsd.edu/Publications/CaillonTermIII.pdf
You posted that. See that last sentence?
“So? If you can’t show any global harm from an increase in a tiny, beneficial trace gas, then there’s no problem, except in your mind. Is there?”
What does that have to do with the source of the current CO2 rise? Are you now accepting we are responsible for it?

August 16, 2011 11:11 am

Robert Murphy says:
“What does that have to do with the source of the current CO2 rise? Are you now accepting we are responsible for it?”
Robert, I have never said that human activity doesn’t contribute to atmospheric CO2, so quit playing word games. What I am repeatedly saying is this: The rise in CO2 is harmless and beneficial. If you have a problem with that, trot out some testable evidence showing global harm due specifically to CO2.
The demonization of “carbon” is the purpose of the entire debate, therefore, if CO2 at current and projected concentrations causes no global damage as claimed, then all the arm-waving by the alarmist contingent is meaningless. And if CO2 is harmless, then the next logical step is to promptly stop wasting the immense taxpayer funds being shoveled into the “climate change” scam.

August 16, 2011 11:34 am

SteveE says
I’m sorry can you rephrase that for me as I don’t quite understand, you say that the Uk data only show an increase of 0.01C/yr compared to 0.04C/yr for Spain and Morocco, and this proves that it is falsified?
Henry
We are talking about Gibraltar, not England
– Gibraltar (in Spain) is UK territory –
1) I randomly decide to check this station because I think it will give me a good global average
2) I find the maxima (0.01C/yr) not increasing as already established on my global tables
3) I decide to check 3 neighbouring stations
– an investigation within an investigation-
4) and find differing results in the neighbouring stations (0.04C/yr)
http://letterdash.com/HenryP/what-hanky-panky-is-going-on-in-the-uk
What would you think?

August 16, 2011 11:45 am

Anyway, before I sign off,
for today,
I hope you did have that drink on more carbon dioxide because it is good for you
but let me give you one piece of evidence that you all should give a thought
There does seem to be difference in global warming if we compare the NH with the SH
I am particularly drawn to the result in Tandil in the south of Argentine which was very much negative (cooling) and it appears that this was due to de-forestation.
So I’m asking myself: what does the opposite do?
Man made warming is caused by more forests and more greenery?>

Robert Murphy
August 16, 2011 1:22 pm

“Robert, I have never said that human activity doesn’t contribute to atmospheric CO2”
You’ve been claiming all along it is a minor source of the rise over the last 150 years. That is why you’ve been saying over and over how CO2 lags temperature. That is why you said, “And the fact is that rises in CO2 always follow rises in temperature…”. You said effects don’t precede causes.
That’s why I had said:
“…we are pumping CO2 that had been locked out of the carbon cycle for hundreds of millions of years in the form of fossil fuels.” I was explaining why what we have been doing is different than the normal way CO2 has risen in the past. It isn’t rising as a slow feedback to temperature; it’s rising mostly from the burning of fossil fuels.
and you replied to that sentence with:
“So? If you can’t show any global harm from an increase in a tiny, beneficial trace gas, then there’s no problem, except in your mind. Is there?”
That of course had nothing to do with what I had said, or what were talking about. You deflected the question, not very deftly.
As for our contribution to CO2 being minor, that’s wrong. We are responsible for essentially 100% of the rise in CO2 over the last 150 years.
But enough of these evasions. Every time I try to pin you down to the subject under discussion you keep talking about other things. I frankly don’t need the aggravation.

Rational Debate
August 16, 2011 2:27 pm

Reply to post: Robert Murphy says: August 16, 2011 at 11:01 am

Of course there is good correlation, but that doesn’t mean both hemispheres started warming at the same time. The paper you posted here said that the CO2 rose before the warming in the NH. Did you read the paper? :

“This sequence of events is still in full agreement with the idea that CO2 plays,
through its greenhouse effect, a key role in amplifying the initial orbital forcing. First, the
800-year time lag is short in comparison with the total duration of the temperature and CO2
increases (5000 years). Second, the CO2 increase clearly precedes the Northern Hemisphere
deglaciation” http://icebubbles.ucsd.edu/Publications/CaillonTermIII.pdf

You posted that. See that last sentence?

Unless you found far more than that in the paper to support your contention, you really need to reconsider that bit yourself. Temperatures can rise a LOT before deglaciation quite easily. Consider Antartica. Current average annual temp there is what, roughly -50C? Temps there could rise as fast as present day temps have been for a very very long time before deglaciation. Temps have been rising ever since the LIA, so a few hundred years, and neither the Antarctic, nor Greenland (or much of any other area with even moderate sized glaciers) have deglaciated. Meanwhile, it does confirm an 800 year lag, which from the brief context I’d sure read as worldwide – again, unless you can find far better supporting info for your view in the document itself.

Richard S Courtney
August 16, 2011 3:09 pm

Robert Murphy:
I see you continue making fatuous assertions. For example, at August 16, 2011 at 1:22 pm, this one:
“We are responsible for essentially 100% of the rise in CO2 over the last 150 years.”
Your assertion may or may not be correct, but there is no evidence that confirms it and much evidence which indicates it is wrong; e.g. I stated some at August 15, 2011 at 1:38 am where I wrote:
“In this and the other thread I have repeatedly pointed out that the observed dynamics of the seasonal variation indicate that the dynamics of the short-term sequestration processes can easilly sequester ALL of the anthropogenic and natural emission in each year. But they don’t.
This is direct empirical evidence that the system is not being overloaded by the anthropogenic emission such that about half the anthropogenic emission is accumulating in the air.”
Remove your blinkers, try to think for yourself, and stop spouting assertions you have picked up from some propoganda blog.
Richard

August 16, 2011 6:31 pm

Robert Murphy says:
“You’ve been claiming all along it is a minor source of the rise over the last 150 years. ”
Please quote my exact words. I’ve re-read this entire thread trying to find something I’ve written stating that CO2 is a minor source of the rise over the last 150 years. The fact is that no one knows exactly how much is natural, and how much is from human emissions. But we do know how much CO2 is naturally emitted vs human-emitted: click As Richard Courtney points out, your CO2 comment is debatable.
And it is you who deflects the fact that there is no evidence showing any global harm due to the rise in CO2. In other words, CO2 is harmless at current and projected levels. The entire AGW debate is based entirely on the putative threat from “carbon.” But the alarmist crowd can’t find any evidence of global harm from CO2, therefore they are sounding a false alarm.
And I’m still waiting for an explanation of the “.4C” figure you’ve given for the temperature rise during the MWP. You wrote: “During the Holocene, the MWP is just a minor warming compared to other earlier events like the Minoan Warming or the RWP, or the earlier Holocene optimum.” You can’t just fabricate your own facts on the internet’s Best Science site and expect your pseudo-science to be accepted without question. So: where did you get your .4C number from?

SteveE
August 17, 2011 4:30 am

Richard S Courtney says:
“I am claiming they both exist and that the stomata data have much better temporal resolution.”
I agree that they have a better temporal resolution, however as the graph i linked to shows they have a poor accuracy with regards to the CO2 measurement. The Ice core data is in agreement in several different geographical locations and matches the trend measured from mauna loa where as the Stomata data doesn’t.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k247/dhm1353/Climate%20Change/LawDomeMLOKouwenberg800.png

JeffG
August 23, 2011 9:25 pm

Joe Bastardi wrote:
“…the earth’s temps have leveled off the past 15 years while CO2 has continued to rise.”
False. The slope of UAH surface temperature over the last 15 years is 0.08 +/- 0.03 C/decade.

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