Emails, schmemails – its only harrassment when they do it,

Without even invoking the angst the media had over climategate emails, where somebody simply got fed up with the constant illegal sidestepping of FOI requests and dumped the whole lot…

FOIA said

November 17, 2009 at 9:57 pm e

We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to be kept under wraps.

We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents. Hopefully it will give some insight into the science and the people behind it.

…we have this comment via Instapundit about the current state of affairs related to obtaining public emails:

BLOG COMMENT OF THE DAY: “The Washington Post thinks it’s ‘harassment’ to request Michael Mann’s files from the University of Virginia (their Memorial Day editorial) but it’s cool with requesting and obtaining and asking for citizen-journalists to go through 24,000 of the State of Alaska’s emails involving Sarah Palin.”

I never thought I’d see any comparison of any kind between Michael Mann and Sarah Palin, and yet, here we are.

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67 thoughts on “Emails, schmemails – its only harrassment when they do it,

  1. The left are the most hypocritical and hateful people we have in this country and they continue to expose themselves as such every day.

  2. After much meditation and internal debate, I have come to the conclusion that Sara Palin is Much better looking than Michael Mann. There really is no comparison there.

  3. Found in the 24000 emails:
    Dear MM,
    Thanks for the advice on avoiding FOIA requests for emails. The part about getting all your associates to delete their correspondence was especially helpful. I also found your proprietary approach to denying FOIA most useful.
    On your advice I have deleted all emails I can find showing acts of impropriety, and have requested all my associates to do likewise. Should these emails be found missing, I will do as you have instructed and simply state that there was no more room on the server, and so the files were systematically removed and no longer exist.
    Kindest regards,
    SP
    Sarc/
    GPlant

  4. That was the first thing i thought when the BBC talked about the ‘release’ of Sarah’s emails. I don’t know much about american politics, but the hypocrisy stank with their differing treatment between that and Climategate.

  5. ‘Different ‘ is a key word when it comes to AGW faithful, for example someone flying for a once a year holiday is a planet killing monster , a green icon raking up multiple long haul flights to attend ‘green events ‘ is OK because its ‘different’ . So lies , misbehavior , poor conducted and abuse of the scientific process are all OK if there done in support of AGW , because that’s ‘different’ to when anyone else does it . So although its perfectly OK to use FOI against those that did not share the AGW faith, with no concern at all about academic freedom , its ‘different’ when it comes to those that support AGW.

  6. What’s that Krauthammer phrase? Ah Yes: Hypocrisy on stilts. (or something like that). In terms of contrast and based on the results of the Washington Post harrassment so far that indicate there is no smoking gun and that Governor Paln is who she says she is, there’s sure to be more questionable information from those University of Virginia files than from Alaska’s E-Mails. After all, Mann stopped being what he said he was, a scientist, a while back.

  7. In a further bizarre twist, this post is carrying a Google ad for investing in carbon credits, “the world’s next trillion $ market”. 42% returns are dangled before us.
    Stranger bedfellows have I yet to see.

  8. Well, after all, Sarah Palin’s emails are more important than the future cost of energy. She may have written something that can be tortured into an indication of mental deficiency. The bankruptcy of the individual trying to heat his home, the loss of reliably available power, the ability to power industry, and the base of our way of life pale in comparison to the possibility of a misspelled word.
    I love WUWT and the, generally, intelligent comments and discussions but, I can’t help feeling that humanity is headed South, It seems that mankind is good at survival and subsistence but poor at living well. Since we have been freed up from the daily grind of hunting and gatering we have descended into incessant bickering. Outrageous and nonsensical theories, economic, scientific, and otherwise win the day because of human greed and deviousness.
    On the other hand, I haven’t had my coffee yet so, everything may be OK anyway.

  9. Now how about we try to gauge how much the liberal media pores over Palin’s e-mails versus how much time they spent on the Climategate e-mails. Wanna bet it’s at least 100X more time and effort reading and dissecting Palin’s mail?

  10. Mann is politicized and so is Palin. Palin is a politician. What seems to be an intellectual integrity issue with Mann is he wants to be taken as an unbiased scientist while politicizing.
    John

  11. It is indeed rather strange. Palins mails will of course be of the Paradise Hotel type. Who said what to whom. Who will be in charge over what. Who will be boss. She said this and he said that.
    Feminine brain stuff.
    Mann’s mails should be of the more scientific stuff. How do we filter this and that away. How can we hide LIA? And so on. Yes, I know. Its feminine brain stuff, too.
    So it should be much more importat to see Mann-mails than Palin-mails. But it isnt. Its the same.

  12. I was late in looking at anything to do with global warming. The one thing that quickly put me in the skeptical camp was the stonewalling and refusal the share data and methods. One can survive mistakes and over enthusiasm. Trying to cover them up instantly turns them and the coverup into fraud and this is true even if the original event was just a mistake. Just ask the IRS. Mann should take a look at one happened to one congressman this last week when he tried to stonewall his “tiny” problem.

  13. This is funny….
    …..something for the MSM to talk about besides………..
    “Anthony Weiner (Pelosi’s pet attack dog) of New York on Saturday said he was entering a psychological treatment center and seeking a leave of absence from the House to deal with a …

  14. Chris F says:
    June 12, 2011 at 5:56 am
    The left are the most hypocritical and hateful people we have in this country and they continue to expose themselves as such every day.
    To be fair, the right are also the most hypocritical and hateful people we have in this country.
    None of us are any good.

  15. Sarah should have sent her email file to Michael Mann. Then the media would demand that he release everything.

  16. The climategate emails showed the true character of “scientists” like Mann, his dishonesty is plain ugly.

  17. Chris F says:
    June 12, 2011 at 5:56 am
    The left are the most hypocritical and hateful people we have in this country and they continue to expose themselves as such every day.

    While its true they expose themselves, the MSM consistently hide it or ignore it. It is only here in the new media that we get a glimpse.

  18. “The Washington Post thinks it’s ‘harassment’ to request Michael Mann’s files from the University of Virginia (their Memorial Day editorial) but it’s cool with requesting and obtaining and asking for citizen-journalists to go through 24,000 of the State of Alaska’s emails involving Sarah Palin.”
    Awesome point! And a disappointing reflection on the Wash Post, about which I have a higher opinion than the rest of the MSM.
    A commenter (Sal Minella; undoubtely hailing from New York City’s Little Italy …) here at WUWT correctly highlights the absurd inversion of priorities here:
    “The bankruptcy of the individual trying to heat his home, the loss of reliably available power, the ability to power industry, and the base of our way of life pale in comparison to the possibility of a misspelled word.”
    Yes; i.e., pales in comparison to the potential opportunity to ridicule a public figure that you detest with all of the rationality and maturity of an eight year old.

  19. The Left follows Saul Alinsky’s playbook. They are Alinskyites, tried and true. They are not our fellow Americans who look to the best interests of America when in power and who are the loyal opposition when out of power. They are out to destroy America as it was understood by our founders and as it was understood by Democrats as late as the administration of John Kennedy. They are succeeding. The one thing that might stop them is the New Great Depression that they are bringing upon us. What does this have to do with climate science?
    Schmidt, Solomon, and Trenberth, along with the editor of PNAS, recently subjected Lindzen to Alinskyite treatment. They violated the rules of PNAS to keep Lindzen’s work from being published and I have no doubt that they would relish the opportunity to publicly brand Lindzen a non-scientist and a crank. That is the Alinskyite method. The struggle over climate science is not something that takes place within science but is the defining political struggle of this generation. It is of a piece with the struggle over Obamacare. The bottom line in both cases is government control and micromanagement of individual lives. To attain such control, the Alinskyites are quite happy to destroy science in the process.

  20. Sal Minella: …we have been freed up from the daily grind of hunting and gatering….
    Sal, you’re from Florida, right? : >)

  21. ZT says:
    June 12, 2011 at 7:45 am
    Sarah is a hockey Mom and Mann is a hockey Dad puck.
    _____________________________________________
    Fixed that for ya.

  22. Instapundit is my all time favorite blog. Legal Insurrection, where the comment came from, is terrific as well.

  23. Chris F says:
    June 12, 2011 at 5:56 am
    The left are the most hypocritical and hateful people we have in this country and they continue to expose themselves as such every day.
    I would like to commend to you the idea of avoiding that generalisation in future.
    It smears the actions of what I presume are just one reporter across 72 million Democrats the way warmists smear West Antarctic temperatures across the entire continent. Of those 72 million, almost every single individual believes themself to be a person of intelligence, goodwill and integrity. They know that since your claim about them is false, they can’t trust you on any other subject either.
    American political discourse is farcically extreme at the moment, with each side assailing their opposition as if they were a uniform block.
    Democrats are demonised as pro-abortion, anti employment, anti free market, gullible global warming suckers, hypocrites, etc.
    On any issue that’s important to you, there will be some individuals ‘on the left’ who will agree with you about that issue.
    The Party that will win your next election will be the ones who canpersuade their opposotion that they share some common ground with them.
    In this case, I recommend “All people of good will, whether left or right, must reject the hypocrisy and double standard displayed here.” And you know- many on the left will agree with you, and think ‘tthe right is not just a bunch of ignorant bigots after all.”

  24. Inquring minds want to know! How much money does Sarah Palin spend on manicures? Where does she buy her shoes? What’s the gossip on that hubby anyway???
    Who cares about boring science! Everyone knows global warming is real.
    But, anyway, back to the Palin’s. Does anyone know where she got her cool phone??? My credit card is burning a hole in my pocket… let’s go shopping!!!

  25. Pingo says:
    June 12, 2011 at 6:15 am
    That was the first thing i thought when the BBC talked about the ‘release’ of Sarah’s emails. I don’t know much about american politics, but the hypocrisy stank with their differing treatment between that and Climategate.
    ==============================================================================
    Sarah Palin is a lightening rod in American politics. While I don’t believe she’s electable to the highest office, she carries with her a very significant following and voter bloc. Any conservative seeking the presidency should also visibly seek her endorsement. She can activate a base like no one else. She also evokes some incredibly irrational behavior from our friends on the left. Hypocrisy knows no bounds when regarding Mrs. Palin. As witnessed by this asinine e-mail request. Heck, we can’t get our president to release his academic records, but they’re going to sift through 24,000 e-mails of an ex-Governor of our least populated state. And they think we’re harassing MM……. go figure. If she misstates something, its headline news. In all 57 states. Why just the other day in a helicopter under live fire……… even after we landed we were getting shot at…….
    For those not familiar, the 57 state quote is attributable our president.(We only have 50.) The two helicopter offerings are fabrications given by our vice president and secretary of state trying to pretend they were some sort of war heroes or something. Apparently, for our MSM it is more acceptable to be lied to or that our smartest president evuh doesn’t know his constituency, or basic geography than it is to not be able to recollect all of the magazines we read.

  26. Yes, Monique, I am of Italian descent and I live in New York (state) but no, juanslayton, I am not retired. Hunting and gathering here are not very profitable as the US and NY take about 80 cents of every dollar earned. Upstate New Yorkers are beaten and squeezed until every possible drop of wealth is extracted.
    Our property taxes (my county has the highest in the nation) run at about 4% of assessed value while downstate (NYC area) and the capital district (where the cheating, lying scumbags (politicians)) live are taxed at about 1.5%.
    Politicians aren’t intelligent, atleast not in the way most posters here are. They are adept at misrepresenting facts, awarding contracts to cronies, receiving kickbacks and trying to sell the populace on absurdities (the need for gay marriage as the most viable path to economic prosperity) as opposed to addressing real problems (massive debt and unfathomable amounts in unfunded obligations).
    Welcome to my world. As a small business owner, I get a little depressed at times but, the Finger Lakes region is spectacular in the summer.

  27. I don’t think the managers of the Washington Post know how immature they appear. In their rush to destroy what they don’t agree with and to protect liberal causes at all costs, they have destroyed their business.

  28. Sarah Palin has real fire, and has demonstrated it.
    Michael Mann pretends to have fire, but won’t show it.
    Could the two be any more different?

  29. John_in_Oz says June 12, 2011 at 8:39 am

    Democrats are demonised as pro-abortion, anti employment, anti free market, gullible global warming suckers, hypocrites, etc.

    Accurate portrayal is not demonization, however, contrary to continued claims and assertions by those being accurately portrayed (a stuck pig crying the loudest and all that) …
    .

  30. John_in_Oz says:
    June 12, 2011 at 8:39 am
    “American political discourse is farcically extreme at the moment, with each side assailing their opposition as if they were a uniform block. The Party that will win your next election will be the ones who can persuade their opposotion (sic) that they share some common ground with them.”
    John,
    The US of A is nearly bankrupt, from decades of the ‘right’ compromising with the socialist left. The socialist left ‘compromises’ only when it advances their agenda. Otherwise, they divide the voters by pitting race against race, young against old, rich against poor, women against men, children against parents, union members against the majority of hardworking independent workers, legal immigrants and native born citizens against illegal aliens, public sector spending versus private sector creation of wealth, jobs, and tax revenues, etc., etc., etc.
    Fundamentally, the ongoing argument is about how we achieve our ‘unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’. Socialists seek government intervention, to redistribute wealth from citizens that earned it to citizens and noncitizens that did not, and create endless layers of regulations to prevent anything they perceive as unacceptable to a socialist society. They are never happy with their ‘successes’, always seeking greater redistribution of wealth and greater regulation of the society. Their unhappiness reflects their conscious and subconscious recognition that they have forfeited their liberty and much control of their life, for the trap of a wealth consuming and often failing government delivery of unearned socialist handouts. Socialism has created a morbidly obese culture and government. The road to economic and cultural health now requires harsh measures to ‘cut the fat’ and restore a lean, agile, and powerful US of A. Do you think we can convince the socialist opposition that our shared common ground is a return to individual responsibility for our lives, much smaller and less intrusive government, and less constraints on capitalism?
    The time for ‘compromise’ is past. We are on the cusp of economically and socially destroying our country. From here on, we must progressively dismantle the strangling burdens of socialist welfare programs and socialist regulations and free ourselves of these self-defeating burdens. The socialists will not ‘compromise’ on this. Confrontation is unavoidable…. but absolutely essential, lest this unique first experiment in our representative republic form of state and federal governments perish forever from the face of the earth.

  31. Conservatives greatly outnumber Liberals in America: click
    Comparison between the Weenie-in-Chief on a girl’s bike, and a real American on a real bike: click

  32. John_in_Oz says:
    June 12, 2011 at 8:39 am
    Chris F says:
    June 12, 2011 at 5:56 am
    The left are the most hypocritical and hateful people we have in this country and they continue to expose themselves as such every day.
    “I would like to commend to you the idea of avoiding that generalisation in future.
    It smears the actions of what I presume are just one reporter across 72 million Democrats the way warmists smear West Antarctic temperatures across the entire continent. Of those 72 million, almost every single individual believes themself to be a person of intelligence, goodwill and integrity. They know that since your claim about them is false, they can’t trust you on any other subject either.
    American political discourse is farcically extreme at the moment, with each side assailing their opposition as if they were a uniform block.”
    The ignorance shown in this comment, whether willful or not, is breath-taking. The Left has been led since at least the 1960s by Alinskyites who practice semantic warfare to a degree that would have startled Orwell. In Orwell’s time, you had to have the guns to back you up before you could practice unbridled semantic warfare. No longer. Now you have the president of the USA, the AG, all of the Cabinet really, the military Chiefs of Staff, and the entire Democratic hierarchy practicing Semantic Warfare against ordinary language and the nation. What proof do I have?
    How about Joe Lieberman? What more do you need? How about “wise latina?’ But here is the clincher. The Alinskyite Left created Rush Limbaugh. They did so through their remarkably aggressive and arrogant debasement of the language. PC means that the Alinskyite Left is permitted to designate what can be said and what cannot be said. Limbaugh lives off the Left’s folly. All he has to do is highlight the most recent egregious piece of semantic legislation and analyze it in terms of ordinary language. That’s all he does. Out of that material he produces great political analysis and hilarious send-ups. Limbaugh is simply ordinary language’s response to the Alinskyite Humpty-Dumpty who insists that words mean exactly what he/she says they mean, nothing more and nothing less.
    What does this have to do with climate science? Warmista practice in exactly the same way as the Alinskyite Left. They reserve to themselves the meanings of the terms found in the science. Dispute one of their claims and they will respond in the most arrogant way with the Village Idiot’s typical Begging of the Question by asserting that you do not understand their meaning. Well, Duh, by their definition we do not understand their meaning, until we learn to applaud at the right spots – that is all the understanding that we are permitted and that we deserve. Warmista are now locked inside their Gaia Models and have no contact with human experience of the world. That is by design. Otherwise, they would have to explicate their claims in ordinary language. That they adamantly refuse to do. The extreme example of this sort of thing is Post-Modern Science, so-called, which wants to clear the boards of scientific method, cumulative Natural History, and all empirical evidence. However, scratch the surface of PMS and all you find are relabeled versions of William James’ work found in his article “The Will to Believe.” For example, “The Precautionary Principle” is nothing more than a recycled decision matrix from Jame’s explication of Pascal’s Wager. Will they discuss James? Heavens no! Why? Because their ability to legislate the meanings of terms would be limited by James’ writings and, therefore, their non-reasoning would be laid bare for the world to see.
    You doubt the claim that the Democratic hierarchy has bought into Semantic Warfare? Then tell me what the heck “individual mandate” means. Explicate it in ordinary language.

  33. After not finding anything suitable for a character assassination, Der Spiegel decided to call Sarah Palin’s life “banal”. You gotta have something negative to say about your political opponent.
    This is a sad day for leftist journalism and for leftism.

  34. The mainstream media won’t cover stories like this:

    “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government can not pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”
    ~Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006

    Obama has added $2.3 Trillion in new debt in only two years, and has now begun a 4th undeclared war. He’s worse for America than Jimmy Carter, who was only incompetent. Obama is plainly anti-American.
    And an interesting take on the Palin email feeding frenzy.

  35. For anyone wondering if there is a bias in the media they only have to look at how ClimateGate emails vs. Palin emails are handled. Did the media even look up even one of the ClimateGate emails let alone scour all of them and ask the public for help in scouring them like they are doing with the Sarah Palin emails?

  36. oh for corn sake, I’ve had about enough gee golly references to hockey sticks and gosh darn violence today, so put a sock in it there, or somebody’s going to get their patoot loaded into the hooskow!
    That said, you folks seem to be a hecka fun crowd, doncha know, so I’m going to be inviting you to enjoy a little roller hockey (I know – rooooooller skates! but it’s better than nothin’ gee-golly!) out at Hamilton City where the North Valley Hockey kids will be setting up their rink and getting ready to play teams from towns like Antioch and Woodland and even Sonora. These kids are so gosh-darn excited to play hockey they’ll not only do it in roller skates they’ll do it in whatever old warehouse you got – lumber mill, old cold storage unit, whatever you got. We’ll rink it up and put down a few old folding chairs for gramma and grampa and there you go – HOCKEY! Right here in the rice fields of Northern California.
    You can also check out the “recreation league” at Cal Skate, that’s starts up again next fall. And there’s a grown-up league. You want to hear something even crazier? Little girls and nice ladies play too! Sugar and spice and SLAPSHOTS!
    Of course, we’re soliciting donations – hey, be the first one to get your fancy big ad on our wall of fame! See our website at http://nvhsc.org/
    Yep, shameless plug, geeshy sakes!
    So, you kids mind your p’s and q’s and keep that stick on the…er….cement… THANKS ANTHONY! Hope to see you rinkside!

  37. Mike Mangan says:
    June 12, 2011 at 8:25 am
    “Instapundit is my all time favorite blog.”
    I second that…Instapundit is my go-to blog for…well…nearly everything (I come to WUWT for climate news :^)!
    One Instapundit staple that we should adopt here at WUWT is the term “Unexpectedly.” For example, we all know the economy is lousy, but Reuters, AP, and other MSM outlets always include this term in their headlines when they can’t figure out why the economy is not doing better under Obama, as in “Unemployment unexpectedly rises to 9%!”
    So, we should apply the term to events which confound the climate alarmists, such as “Snowpack in Colorado is unexpectedly at record levels!” or “The rate of sea level rise declines unexpectedly!”

  38. Smokey says:
    June 12, 2011 at 11:54 am
    Come to think of it, Smokey, the reason they are busying themselves with her emails is that she gets into their heads and ruins their game plan. John Madden has often referred to this phenomena during SuperBowls. The wheels really come off when it happens.
    Her latest stint of touring the country (conveniently not campaigning or talking to the MSM) has them baffled.
    They don’t have an app for that.

  39. Frank K. says:
    June 12, 2011 at 2:29 pm
    Good suggestion! A little push-back in the semantic war.

  40. Latitude says:
    June 12, 2011 at 7:13 am
    This is funny….
    …..something for the MSM to talk about besides………..
    “Anthony Weiner (Pelosi’s pet attack dog) of New York on Saturday said he was entering a psychological treatment center and seeking a leave of absence from the House to deal with a …

    From attack dog to wiener-dog!
    (The Rake’s Progress)

  41. Theo Goodwin.
    Thanks for bringing up Alinsky…I’ll check him out.
    But I should add that the creative use of language by the Greens leaves the rest of us dangling in the wind.
    My two favourite examples of this type of ‘semantic warfare’ are:
    ‘Greenpeace’…how can anyone be opposed to GREEN PEACE?…Because of the way language works – being opposed to Green Peace means that you are in favour of BROWN WAR (or thereabouts).
    But their greatest success, the area where they have literally taken the high ground…is the term GREEN HOUSE EFFECT. Anyone who has ever entered a greenhouse knows it is a HEAT TRAP and that the heat is trapped by a physical barrier…anyone who understands the actual science of convection and radiation understands that what happens five or ten miles above our heads is complex but that there is no physical barrier to heat loss between the atmosphere and space. Maybe this is why they don’t like us flying…that temperature gauge on the inflight display is very educational! Even skeptical scientists are forced to used terms like ‘greenhouse gases’.
    Until such times as we come up with better terminology to describe our atmospheric ‘blanket’ we cannot win over the doubters.

  42. You put your finger right on it, John Whitman. That lack of integrity runs like a swamp through the whole AGW science establishment. It’s hard to know whether the cause is cognitive dissonance or tactical cynicism, but it’s had the most corrosive effect on science.

  43. mac the knife: “Socialists seek government intervention, to redistribute wealth from citizens that earned it to citizens and noncitizens that did not…”
    And, “Socialism has created a morbidly obese culture and government. The road to economic and cultural health now requires harsh measures to ‘cut the fat’ and restore a lean, agile, and powerful US of A.”
    Is that actually what’s happening? If you look at Smokey’s Gallup poll link above, it show that Conservatives outnumber Liberals by a hefty margin. If you look at the chart on page two of <a href="http://taxprof.typepad.com/files/129tn0251.pdf&quot;.this article by David Cay Johnson, it shows that the wealthiest 20% of Americans own 83% of the wealth. Not only that, but wealthy people themselves believe that the distribution of wealth should be more equal, according to the article.
    Exactly who are you going to “cut the fat” from? You’re painting a picture of a Socialist menace that doesn’t exist, and using that as justification to suggest that “we must progressively dismantle the strangling burdens of socialist welfare programs…” and “Confrontation is inevitable…”
    I hate to break it to you, but gutting the government and the remaining social programs isn’t about Socialism, it’s about handing the reins of power to Corporate America and hoping that they will throw you a few bucks when they open a new Walmart down the road. Good luck with that.

  44. Hey Footagus –
    Like AGW, its about the statstics —
    I don’t care that the wealthiest 20% own 83% of the wealth,
    the American experience has always been the the distribution of the rest was sufficient to create the largest
    and wealthiest middle class in history, and for that matter, the wealthiest bottom 20% as well.
    Also, that 20% probably is about 40% of the workforce…hardly a tiny elite.
    — Oh and wealth, mostly isn’t distributed — it is earned.
    So how many tree rings do you need to figure out a “fair” distribution of wealth?

  45. Footagus says:
    June 12, 2011 at 7:04 pm
    mac the knife: “Socialists seek government intervention, to redistribute wealth from citizens that earned it to citizens and noncitizens that did not…”
    And, “Socialism has created a morbidly obese culture and government. The road to economic and cultural health now requires harsh measures to ‘cut the fat’ and restore a lean, agile, and powerful US of A.”
    Is that actually what’s happening? If you look at Smokey’s Gallup poll link above, it shows that Conservatives outnumber Liberals by a hefty margin. If you look at the chart on page two of <a href="http://taxprof.typepad.com/files/129tn0251.pdf&quot;.this article by David Cay Johnson, it shows that the wealthiest 20% of Americans own 83% of the wealth. Not only that, but wealthy people themselves believe that the distribution of wealth should be more equal, according to the article.
    Exactly who are you going to “cut the fat” from? You’re painting a picture of a Socialist menace that doesn’t exist, and using that as justification to suggest that “we must progressively dismantle the strangling burdens of socialist welfare programs…” and “Confrontation is inevitable…”
    I hate to break it to you, but gutting the government and the remaining social programs isn’t about Socialism, it’s about handing the reins of power to Corporate America and hoping that they will throw you a few bucks when they open a new Walmart down the road. Good luck with that.
    ==============================================================================
    Footagus, I dislike entering this conversation. I understand many skeptics are liberal democrats and I am of much disdain to alienate any skeptics, that said………
    Wrong. You're framing the argument wrong, and you're wrong in engaging in the class warfare that has been part and parcel of the left. Anyone familiar with my writings will know I have plenty to say about this issue, and I would be correct of the various assertions I'd make. But today, I've something different to offer. I have a personal experience.
    After many years of struggle, mostly of my own difficulties, I've attained a lifestyle and income that can be termed as middle-class. While I'm rich in many things, I've never sought great wealth…….. only enough to feed, house, and cloth me and mine. And, most importantly, to earn it myself, without owing anyone and anyone owing to me. I've done my best to pass on this way of being.
    Recently, like millions others, my son-in-law and daughter found themselves without jobs…..as too, some close cousins and their families. I don't earn enough to carry them all through the hard times, but we do what we can. Lately, me, and them (my extended family) have become increasingly frustrated. While it appeared that people were hiring, my people weren't getting the jobs. Any jobs……labor, skilled or otherwise. These are people well versed in all sorts of work. Machinists, roofer, construction, truckers….. it doesn't matter, they're not above the job to do it.
    The day before yesterday, I found out why. One of my cousin's daughters accidentally got hired. By accidentally, I mean the manager went to her and stated if he’d been there, she wouldn’t have the job. She asked why……….. the response, ….“Because you are not on cash assistance.” For those not familiar with the term…… it is welfare. Where the government takes care of you because you can’t or won’t take care of yourself.
    Evidently, there is some program that gives companies some sort of extra money to hire people on welfare. So, they only hire people on welfare. Screw the ones that don’t admit defeat. God knows we don’t want to encourage that behavior. Apparently, the sorry sacks of shitte believe everyone needs to suck at teat of government, and by God we’ll force them to before they can earn their way through life. If the tree of liberty ever needed watering………
    Who ever or whatever sick SOB ever thought of that asinine program….. better pray to God…….. I cannot write any further without violating our laws.

  46. “I hate to break it to you, but gutting the government and the remaining social programs isn’t about Socialism, it’s about handing the reins of power to Corporate America and hoping that they will throw you a few bucks when they open a new Walmart down the road. Good luck with that.”
    I always love the angst some people have against “corporations”. Does that include “The Corporation for Public Broadcasting”? How about small businesses and one person LLCs (guess what the C stands for)?
    Corporations are, in the end, PEOPLE! PEOPLE who run, invest in, and contribute to business. Don’t like a particular corporation? Then stop purchasing goods from them! You are free to seek alternatives. But don’t tell other people who they can or can not purchase goods from! I personally love shopping at my Walmart!
    If you still don’t like corporations and think they all suck, then start your own business and show us all how it’s done. You can even be a non-profit if you want!
    And finally, about redistributing wealth. If you think taking money from rich people and giving it to the poor will solve all our problems, think again. When you tell someone they can only earn 10 cents on the dollar when their income is above a certain threshold, you can be sure they won’t have any incentive to earn any more than they have to in order to avoid the penalty. This is why “taxing the rich” will never work in the long run. And on the other side, giving someone something for nothing ensures that the person receiving the something will continue to do nothing to get their something. This is why Socialism never works in the long run (at least without the use of force by the government).

  47. Footagus says:
    June 12, 2011 at 7:04 pm
    Our +$14 Trillion dollar US national debt and even larger unfunded social welfare program commitments are a direct result of ever expanding and failing socialism. Our latest folly is National Health Care, aka ObamaCare. Expansion of the welfare state continues unchecked, as do our annual deficits and almost unrecoverable national debt. There are 308, 745,538 people in the USA, according to the 2010 census , with anywhere from 5,000,000 to 15,000,000 additional illegal aliens undocumented. Using just the census count, each US resident is now responsible for $45,345 of the +$14 Trillion national debt. This number more than doubles, if the unfunded socialist mandates are added in. The substantial additional debts from illegal aliens consuming welfare benefits remains undocumented. What part of this very basic data do you not understand? Are you prepared to forfeit your welfare checks (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ObamaCare, etc) to pay your personal portion of the National Debt? If not, who do you think should pay for your welfare checks? How do you think this debt is going to get paid when the bills come due? Do you think gross inflating of the US money supply, our current ‘monetary easing solution’ and last refuge of every failing government, is a viable course of action? “Good luck with that.”
    Nor can it be argued that this is a result of ‘Corporate America’, the favorite canard and refuge of progressive argument. Our rapidly expanding government is bloated, promising wealth transfer and security that increasingly it can’t deliver, and consuming wealth better deployed in the private sectors of our economy. Our bloated government debts further deplete our national wealth, diverted as interest payments to other countries that hold our debt. How is our bloated government addressing the bloated national debts? By inflating the money supply. The countries holding our treasury notes and bills have realized our inflating money supply is devaluing the US debt (T Bills/Notes) they are holding. Recent financial headlines indicate China, the single biggest holder of US debt and US dollars, is divesting their US debt holdings and calling for replacement of the US dollar as the primary medium of world wide economic exchange. When our biggest creditors finally refuse to buy our debt, the spit really hits the griddle. Interest rates rise rapidly, the value of our US dollar drops, and real, ugly inflation results. ” \I hate to break it to you”, but the government, the bloated and inefficient social programs, and the progressive socialists that support them are gutting the economy of the US. Denying this is like Anthony Wiener denying those are his ‘tiddy whities’…..
    In 2006, a freshman Senator Obama opined “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government can not pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”
    Senator Obama understood the problem in 2006. Why can’t Our Dear Leader ($3Trillion in debt later and counting…) and his feckless supporters, grasp that fundamental truth today?

  48. Senator Obama understood the problem in 2006. Why can’t Our Dear Leader ($3Trillion in debt later and counting…) and his feckless supporters, grasp that fundamental truth today?

    Easy answer. 0bama never actually understood anything.
    He has different speech writers today than he did then.
    And different people are pulling his strings now.
    The level of hypocrisy shown by the media is breathtaking, and this Palin vs. Climategate example is but one of many. Usually once I point out to someone what a “weasel word” is in a climate article, they soon realize that the entire “news industry” is either corrupted, or simply meaningless entertainment. The rare occasion when they are actually reporting news or covering an event is still awash with political point-scoring and climate brainwashing. It’s foul, and it’s disgusting, but it’s the reality we are dealing with.
    And for the record, no, Foxnews is not “right wing”, not even close. It’s just that media coverage is so far out to the left that anything close to the middle starts to look far-right in comparison…

  49. Mac the Knife [June 12, 2011 at 10:49 am] says:
    (… lots of great stuff …)

    All I can say is hear, hear!

    Smokey [June 12, 2011 at 11:20 am] says:
    Rolling-Blunder-v-Rolling-Thunder.jpg

    Oh man, that is perfect. Between that photo and those of the baseball pitches, he is clearly the weeniest weenie to ever move into the White House. Rolling Thunder baby!

    Theo Goodwin [June 12, 2011 at 11:28 am] says:
    (… lots of great stuff …)

    Speak it brother! (I’m really digging this thread.)

    Footagus [June 12, 2011 at 7:04 pm] says:

    Mac the Knife says: ‘Socialism has created a morbidly obese culture and government.’

    “Is that actually what’s happening? If you look at Smokey’s Gallup poll link above, it show that Conservatives outnumber Liberals by a hefty margin.”

    Try to think of socialists like cancer cells in the body of a free America. Even in a cancer ravaged human body, the cancer cells are outnumbered by normal cells by many, many orders of magnitude. Food for thought: perhaps the cancer would be defeated if all the cells showed up for the fight, not just the dedicated fighters. Unfortunately, sometimes the white blood cells are tricked and turned against the body by the invading disease. Other useful and accurate analogies include virus and bacterial infection.

    CodeTech [June 12, 2011 at 10:12 pm] says:
    “And for the record, no, Foxnews is not “right wing”, not even close. It’s just that media coverage is so far out to the left that anything close to the middle starts to look far-right in comparison…”

    Bingo. And it is yet another proof that to a liberal/socialist, anything that is not left-wing, must be right-wing. To turn a liberal into babbling idiot, just make them explain exactly what they mean when they use the phrase right-wing.

  50. Mann, Sarah Palin? Both extremists in their own way. Problem is that Mann has more influence.

  51. Theo Goodwin says:
    June 12, 2011 at 8:03 am
    [….] They are out to destroy America as it was understood by our founders and as it was understood by Democrats as late as the administration of John Kennedy

    The Democrats have been subverting the Constitutional Republic since before the American Civil War. Education and related academic disciplines related to science have been undermined by increasing socialism since the late 19th Century and early 20th Century, particularly with the Upton reforms. The Wilson and Franklin D. Roosevelt Administrations were especially involved with packing the Supreme Court of the United States and inferior courts with a judiciary dedicated to implementing social engineering through court decisions beyond the scope of powers granted to the Federal Government by the U.S. Constitution. Current court decisions often cite precedent cases from the Supreme Court justices appointed by the Roosevelt and Truman Administrations. The usurpation of the limiited government power granted by the U.S. Constitution such as the regulation of Commerce and Education began long before the Kennedy Administration. Communists and socialists have played key roles in the Administrations of Wilson and Franklin D. Roosevelt, before the Kennedy Administration.
    The role of communism and socialism in U.S. education and science is as old as the roots of communism and socialism. Oppenheimer’s relationship with communism was in no respect non-representative of the period in which he was a part of the educatonal establishment.

  52. “Other useful and accurate analogies include virus and bacterial infection.
    Seriously?
    Anyway, this is fascinating stuff!
    I’m curious to know if people here think that the issue of climate change is a Left-Right thing, or is it strictly a science issue?

  53. Considering I feel that both are capable of similar tactics to avoid the embarrassment light sheds on being a crummy person, I am not surprised that the two are comparable.

  54. [Blade says:] “Try to think of socialists like cancer cells in the body of a free America. Even in a cancer ravaged human body, the cancer cells are outnumbered by normal cells by many, many orders of magnitude. Food for thought: perhaps the cancer would be defeated if all the cells showed up for the fight, not just the dedicated fighters. Unfortunately, sometimes the white blood cells are tricked and turned against the body by the invading disease. Other useful and accurate analogies include virus and bacterial infection.”

    [Footagus says:] “Seriously?”

    Seriously.

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