Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.

In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

Highlight scene from former VP Al Gore's Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An Inconvenient Truth. Dramatic correlation between temperature and CO2 over past 600,000 years. Implication that global mean temperature rise will parallel CO2 increases. But, which way does the causation go? {Annotations by ira@techie.com, TVPClub.blogspot.com}

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.

  1. Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
  2. To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
  3. We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
  4. But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
  5. You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
  6. The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
  7. The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
  8. A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.

B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.

  1. VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
  2. The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
  3. Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
  4. Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
  5. The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
  6. But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
  7. When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
  8. In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
  9. Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
  10. Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
  11. How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
  12. Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
  13. The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
  14. According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
  15. These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).

C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

IPCC 1990 recognized Medieval Warm Period (MWP) temperatures were above current levels. IPCC 2001 used the "Hockey Stick" chart that makes MWP disappear.
  1. I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)
2007 email from Sato to Hansen details seven analyses of 1934 vs 1998. 1934 starts off with a 0.5ºC lead and ends up in a dead heat.
  1. Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
  2. The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
  3. Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
  4. I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”

D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.

  1. I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
  2. However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
  3. There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
  4. However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
  5. Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
  6. If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
  7. As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
  8. You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”

I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)

Get notified when a new post is published.
Subscribe today!
5 1 vote
Article Rating
557 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 11:01 am

mkelly,
I guess my hypothesis didn’t specifically say “Global Temperatures of the last 100 years ARE INDEED higher than expected compared to temperatures of the previous several millennia due to human “experimentation” with the environment in the form of increased CO2. ”
I thought that was implied since the discussion was global warming, but I could have been more precise. You did indeed find a reference for local warming of several F, but that same page suggest that global warming was much less.

June 6, 2011 11:13 am

mkelly says:
June 6, 2011 at 9:17 am
Tim Folkerts says:
June 6, 2011 at 8:35 am
PS Do you have a source for you claim “higher than today by 6-9 degrees F”? A few quick web searches suggest that the the global temperature was maybe 2-3 F warmer than today.
“The Holocene Climate Optimum warm event consisted of increases of up to 4 °C near the North Pole (in one study, winter warming of 3 to 9 °C and summer of 2 to 6 °C in northern central Siberia).[1]” From Wikipeadia.
Depends on where you cherry pick from. 4 C = 7.2 F 7.2 F is between 6-9 FM

Indeed it is but the North Pole is not the globe! “the global temperature was maybe 2-3 F warmer than today.”

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 12:40 pm

Tim – I’m trying to make it so very easy for you. Not asking for information on how exactly UV heats land and oceans, not asking for information how exactly Nr IR heats land and oceans, not even asking for all of the Visible, just the little ol’ blue light wavelength. What could be simpler?
It doesn’t exist. I know that. You know that. That’s why it’s never produced.
However, some supporting this AGWScience fiction as if it is real science, don’t know that.
What they can see for themselves here though, I hope, is that Ira and you and Joel don’t ever come back with a simple answer showing proof.
That the whole of your time in exchanges with me is to avoid doing so.
Idiotic put downs and distraction from the actual question which you continue to generate in reply don’t count as scientific proof I’m requesting from you, the self-proclaimed and pal confirmed scientific expert you present yourself.
I’m still waiting for proof of this basic premise of the AGWScience Energy Budget, as in Kt97.
Either produce it or admit it doesn’t exist.
Continually not producing is certainly proof that it doesn’t exist, surely? After all these years there isn’t tons and tons of material readily available and explaining and proving the basic premise here? The alternative is to think that for all your claims, voiced so loudly to me in these discussions, of how well educated you are all are in ‘science’, is just a con. You’re probably cleaners in labs somewhere passing yourselves off as PhD’s, because, it can’t be just that you’re too thick to understand such a simple question on a basic scientific premise, can it?
So, out of the Blue Visible Light of the AGWScience Energy Budget, as in KT97, how much is actually reaching the surface of Earth? How exactly is this converting to heat the land and oceans of Earth? Show me proof in the real world that it is actually doing this.

Matt G
June 6, 2011 2:24 pm

Myrrh says:
June 6, 2011 at 3:58 am
This is the observed scientific evidence that shows only shortwave warms the ocean, but longwave doesn’t. (at least to any measurable amount)
Here it is. (measured shortwave)
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7i_1.html
(measured longwave)
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7i_3.html
Which one looks closest to ocean SST’s?
http://weather.unisys.com/archive/sst/sst-010114.gif
SHORTWAVE – so this is the source. (longwave, looks nothing like it)

Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 5:36 pm

Myrrh,
The proof is as simple as this:
* Blue photons arrive at the surface of the earth, at a globe-wide long-term average rate of ~ 5 J of energy each square meter. Some reflects, leaving ~ 4 J of energy each square meter that does not leave.
* The energy cannot be destroyed.
* Measured photosynthesis can only account a small amount of the energy. (And even with photosynthesis, the energy simply goes into chemical bonds — those chemical bonds release the energy again when the plant gets eaten or decomposes, so there is essentially 0 net change in any square meter over the course of a year).
* The only reasonable conclusion is that the energy goes into thermal energy of the surface.
The experiments to confirm this are so simple as to be almost not worth mentioning.
–> Shine sunlight on different colored paper. See if darker paper gets warmer.
–> Shine sunlight thru a clear plastic sheet onto black paper. Shine sunlight thru similar plastic sheets that have various colors and/or saturation of color. See if the clear plastic results in the highest temperature.
In both cases, the only difference in the warming would be due to various visible components of visible light. This is “proof” that visible light can and does heat objects. You could repeat the experiments with rocks or cars or water or your hand. I am 100% confident that you will indeed find the surfaces that absorb more visible light will be warmer.
PS I am NOT going to do the experiments for you.

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 7:11 pm

Matt G says:
June 6, 2011 at 2:24 pm
This is the observed scientific evidence that shows only shortwave warms the ocean, but longwave doesn’t
? Where do these show this?
The first one; so there’s more sunlight, visible, in the tropics than at the poles.
The second one; that more longwave loss, heat, occurs in deserty regions with little cloud cover and less from cold surfaces, duh.
The third one; measured heat of the oceans in °C colour coded for temperature, not showing that visible light is heating the oceans.
Do you know what a rainbow is? It’s created by water droplets breaking apart Visible light.
Y’all seem, quite unable to examine high energy/highly energetic and low energy outside of the AGWScience meme that these mean that highly energetic is powerful and low energy means it is weak, and that therefore believe these weak are powerful enough to create heat, to raise the temperature of organic matter.
But in real world traditional science this is the description of thermal infrared. A simple sleight of hand, giving the properties of one thing to another, and an impossible world is created pretending to be ours.
And from taking that on trust, because real scientists, especially those in the applied sciences such as engineers who work with these wavelengths and really understand them and can’t be conned into believing this, everything else that AGWScience says is then believed, and any real world science of actual physical fact is viewed through the distorting lenses it creates.
Light energies, and the shortwave either side, are actually very weak, their size is tiny compared with the longer infrared, they are bounced around the sky by molecules of oxygen and nitrogen, that’s how we get a blue sky – light scattered by molecules of the gas Air which is our atmosphere. A little bitty water droplet in the sky breaks up visible light to create rainbows, just how powerful does that make visible light? Same thing when they reach the oceans which around 70% of Earth’s surface, the water breaks them up and scatters them in a particular way called transmission, water is transparent to visible light (obviously the clearer the ocean waters), near IR also. There are good pages around which go through the different ways light can be reflected.
That’s how we see the colours of the world around us, by visible light energies reflecting back, not being absorbed. A near IR camera works on the same principle, it captures the reflecting wavelength, it’s bounced back out, reflected back, just as visible light is which is captured on film. Putting on a shirt stops UV from reaching your skin. They are not thermal. It’s the thermal energies which have the punch to heat organic life on Earth. S’fact. They have different qualities, properties, size, they can do different things, are used in different ways by Earth and the life in it. We use all these energies for life in one way or another.
Why do you have a shadow?
Light waves stay light waves in the oceans as they do on land; some wavelengths absorbed for photosynthesis where the energies are used in a chemical change not heat creation, or for transmitting more light. It’s the heat energies that create heat. That’s why they’re called thermal.
There are some, to me, irritating bits of fear mongering about UV creeping into the following piece on light in oceans, but otherwise a well-written piece. Enjoy it: http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewArticle.do?id=2472
After I’d posted my earlier reply to you, asking for information on what you meant by saying that longwave didn’t penetrate the skin of water, I’d not heard that before and wondered where it came from, I remembered another AGWScience meme I see often, even on the NASA page I linked to, and perhaps it is somehow tied in with this statement of yours.
The NASA page for example, that the heat we feel from the Sun is because our bodies can sense the difference in temperature between inside and outside, and stops there, at skin level. So doesn’t go into the way this heat from the Sun, thermal infrared, penetrates our bodies and warms us up, as in the description I posted how thermal raises our internal temperature because of its affinity with water in our bodies, by the vibrational state of energy and molecules. The biocab.org link on Heat Transfer.
What we have here then, is two vital pieces of information missing from AGWScience which only those who still know real world traditional science can appreciate.
The first is re the KT97 energy budget, that it’s thermal infrared which heats the oceans not these short wave light energies, so all those believing AGWScience here have absolutely no idea of the real physics, the real physical properties of energy and molecules in our world, and the second, that all the work done to date and knowledge gained about using different energies, especially infrared, for healing, which ironically NASA itself began in earnest when looking to find ways of keeping astronauts healthy in space, is a closed book to them.
How incredibly sad that so much energy is being devoted to deliberate create generations of ignorants in science, people who won’t be able to make things work or come up with new discoveries about our physical world because the basics have been so mangled.

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 7:22 pm

Tim – I asked for proof that that Blue Visible light converts to heat land and oceans.
Visible light reflecting and transmitting through transparent mediums to propagate more light is no loss of energy, this is not creating heat. It is not raising the temperature of the water.
Show me the proof that Blue Visible light raises the temperature of the oceans.
Specifically this proof.
Show me the experiments where this has been done.

June 6, 2011 7:56 pm

Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
June 6, 2011 at 6:32 pm
astonerii says:
June 5, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Joel Shore says:June 4, 2011 at 7:49 pm
The equation is worthless…………
astonerii, I accept your numbers above, which indicate that 99.999%+…….
==================================================
Ira, I loved your explanation. And I didn’t follow the conversation, I only read your comment. But, if it was too elegant or long-winded, we could try …….
Guys, CO2 emits as does all the other GHGs and absorbs multi-directional. You ought to be able to figure it out from there…..and your 12 step program to hell.
Sorry for butting in, just thought it was too amusing to pass on………. carry on. 🙂

Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 8:43 pm

Myrrh says
“Visible light reflecting and transmitting through transparent mediums to propagate more light is no loss of energy, ”
That is true as far as it goes — the light that is transmitted thru a materiel or the light that gets reflected from a material does not add energy to the material.
But no material is 100% transparent. Some light entering a sheet of glass gets absorbed. Some light entering a column of water gets absorbed. Some light traveling thru the atmosphere gets absorbed. Not reflected, not transmitted — absorbed.
For water, visible light can travel tens of meters, but it DOES get absorbed eventually. The darkness deep in the ocean is the simplest proof. Also, the fact that the ocean gets warmer where there is more sunlight is supporting evidence that the sunlight is warming the oceans.
See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Water_absorption_spectrum.png
or
http://www.oceanopticsbook.info/view/absorption/definitions
for measured results.
These are indeed the results of experiments to measure the absorption of light energy by water.
RECAP: Photons go in — they don;t come out. The result is thermal energy of the water.
P.S. I would still like to hear your definitions of
“heat”
“thermal infrared”
“light”
“visible shortwave light”
You use these terms with certainty, so presumably you can tells us what you think they mean.

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 9:02 pm

Wayne, I’ve been looking at this and trying to get my head around it, the following might be a bit jumbled.
http://ijolite.geology.uiuc.edu/02SprgClass/geo117/lectures/Lect15.html

Essentially all of the energy received by the Earth is energy from the Sun in the form of light and heat. ..
… The average temperature of the ocean and continent surface is 18°C, so the Earth radiates energy in the infrared portion of the spectrum.
All of the infrared radiation is absorbed in the top meter of the oceans. This is the process that “heats” the ocean. In other worlds, the absorption of solar heat energy is only effective in the topmost layers of the oceans. With depth, the longer wavelengths of visible light (red, orange, yellow) are absorbed. At depths greater than about 100 meters, only short wavelengths of visible light are transmitted (green, blue, violet).
Look at the Depth % absorbed, wavelengths absorbed
1 m 60% infrared (heats surface waters)
10 m 80% longer visible
150 m 99% [only short, green-blue-violet light remains]

This is saying that 60% of the Solar energy reaching the sea surface is absorbed in the first metre and this is thermal infrared, heat. The ratio then of thermal infrared to visible light at the surface of the Earth is 60/40, i.e., the higher % is Thermal IR.
This appears to be a disjunct with what it also says earlier the usual meme that most of the energy at the surface is light and not heat.
[On the slide presentation (http://ijolite.geology.uiuc.edu/02sprgclass/geo117/ppts/Lect15.pdf) the slide, “Absorption of solar radiation by the oceans”, .Radiation reaching the sea surface: .visible .infrared = heat .(ultraviolet)]
It also says re that 18&degC of the heated earth that it is direct relation to the heat of the source the Sun at 6000. New sentence. Saying that’s why the Earth radiates out in the infrared.
Isn’t there something about matter not being able to radiate energy it hasn’t received?
So, even if there is more visible than heat reaching the surface, since it has no part to play in heating the land and oceans it can be simply discounted, that leaves only what is left of the thermal reaching the Earth’s surface accounting for all the heating of land as well as oceans as described here. But, that doesn’t explain the disjunct in the actual absorption in the ocean.
The water is absorbing the longer wavelengths first, the larger in size being stopped earlier by the mass of the water and progressively so through the longer but now reflective nr ir and visible red orange yellow to the deeper levels where the shorter smaller continue to be reflected and transmitted through the transparent medium.
If it’s 60% of all solar in the ocean, then its 60% on the surface, isn’t it? And that applies to all Earth’s surface.
Am I missing something?

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 9:14 pm

Tim – do stop with “sunlight”.. Just give me the proof I require of you, and all you pushing this AGWScience Energy Budget, prove that Blue Visible light, that particular wavelength with its particular properties and with its particular processes in actions and reactions, etc., creates heat in oceans. Just do it.
That you keep avoiding just doing it is simply reinforcing the conclusion of your lack of ability to do it.

Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 10:46 pm

Myrrh says: “Just do it. ”
IMHO, I have done it, many times in many ways. I’m sure Ira understands. I’m sure Joel understands. Your lack of understanding shows more about your lack of ability, not mine.
You REPEATEDLY refuse to tell us what you actually know — making it impossible to ascertain what more you want to know. You have refused my suggestions that you do some studying of the topics to become more informed (telling me in another thread to “stop assigning you homework”).
If you are not willing to bring yourself to an understanding of basic physics, no amount of explaining on my part will help you understand. If you are not willing to tell us what you DO know, we have no way to know where to start teaching.
So tell us your understanding (preferably in the form of numbers and equations) of:
“heat”
“Thermal IR”
“thermal”
“blue light”
“visible light”
“light”
“attenuation”
“visible shortwave light”
“Light energies are actually very weak”
“They have different qualities, properties, size, they can do different things”
(what are these different properties and what are their values for UV, blue, red, and IR? )

wayne
June 7, 2011 1:11 am

Myrrh says:
June 6, 2011 at 9:02 pm
Wayne, I’ve been looking at this and trying to get my head around it, the following might be a bit jumbled.
http://ijolite.geology.uiuc.edu/02SprgClass/geo117/lectures/Lect15.html

Neat Myrrh, I’ll study it. BTW, got your comment at jonova’s, I’ll comment later, got sidetracked reading the rest of the some 500 comments there.
That link’s info is along the lines I have been looking for all along, knew it was there somewhere. Not all real science is dead, yet. 60% infrared huh? Interesting. I’m still here but my time got suddenly clamped! ☺
I’m getting even more interested as other commenters keep complaining of your persistence. I now wonder how much blue visible light is actually reflected to make our blue globe blue. Logically, there is also bound to be a mixture portion across all of violet, indigo, blue and green of various portions to give any photos of Earth the deep blue-green color. Your question is a good one and I’m not surprised of uiuc’s lecture on the relevance of IR.
Matt G:
Thanks for your first two links even thought I appreciate them for a completely different reason being the mean global averages on both. Those two pieces of data had also eluded me, the -42 wm-2 is very interesting. (but sorry, I do agree that those links prove what you thought they do)
Tim
The named divisions in those figures above were from an astrophysics site. The steps within ir ranges were by me to make all fine enough and consistent but not to make any meaningless tiny across all three (that is, a good spread).

Myrrh
June 7, 2011 1:52 am

Tim – how much longer do you think you can avoid giving me an answer?
I don’t have to tell you anything.
As you well know. Or should do.
This is your supposed ‘scientific truth’.
I’m asking you for an explanation and you are, according to the scientific principle in the real world, required to answer me.
You explain every one of those to me in the process of explaining EXACLTLY how Blue Visible Light heats oceans.
Just do it.

Tim Folkerts
June 7, 2011 5:40 am

Myrrh
Myrrh– how much longer do you think YOU can avoid giving ME an answer !?
I can’t give an answer in Russian to someone who doesn’t speak Russian.
I can’t give an answer about British literature to someone who doesn’t know who Shakespeare or Dickens or Austen is.
I can’t give an answer about the origins of the American Civil War to someone who doesn’t know about the Missouri Compromise or the Dred Scott case or Fort Sumter.
Similarly, I can’t give an answer about conversion of light into thermal energy to someone who can’t define “light”, “heat”, “thermal energy”, or “thermal IR” is! I can’t use mathematics to prove a result to someone who someone who admits he doesn’t know much math.
I’m not going even attempt to answer you until we are “on the same wavelength” as it were about basic science terminology. Define these terms and MAYBE we can move forward.

June 7, 2011 7:12 am

Phil. says:
June 6, 2011 at 11:13 am
“Indeed it is but the North Pole is not the globe! “the global temperature was maybe 2-3 F warmer than today.”
Phil think about the implications of over a thousand years of 6-9 F higher temperatures in the Artic/Northern Siberia etc. There was no methane runaway, the polar bears are still here, the Artic was ice free for some period, etc. All the horrible things folks talk about today already happened and as far as I can tell nothing bad was the outcome.
So the temp globally was 2-3 degrees higher than today it was still higher than today. And until we exceed natural past tempertures we cannot say that we are experimenting or that anything out of the ordinary.
CO2 was much lower back then but the temperature was higher. Kinda kills the whole theory don’t ya think?

Myrrh
June 7, 2011 1:55 pm

Tim – Gone on, have a go, we’ll all, whoever is left reading this, look at the experiments and the data and the measurements and follow along with you and I’m sure those with real science knowledge here can help explain anything I’m not sure of if you get stuck.
How difficult can it be to provide this? Surely there are pages and pages and pages of AGWScience describing the proofs for this premise, no? Showing how much UV heats water, salty and unsalty and how it does this given its properties and the properties of the water, how much Orange Visible raises the temperature of different rocks and soils by its physical properties and so on – how difficult can it be to pull out from such standard comprehensive physics and data that AGWScience must have built up over these decades supporting its premise that shortwave visible and invisible sunlight directly heats the Earth and raises the temperature of land and oceans to radiate out the thermal infrared claimed, just how much Blue Visible Light heats the oceans? But wait! This is claimed to be real world physics by AGWScience, not even presenting something new, so you also have the wealth of Science of decades previous to show how shortwave Light energies from the Sun heat the oceans and land!
So, don’t worry about any difficulties that I personally might have following the explanations of the physics and the research and applications, go for it.
Spread it out before us to have a really good look at it all.
How and how much does Blue Visible Light heat the oceans?
Show me figures, and the methodology and physics in the testing, show me the actual real world science to prove that Blue Visible Light heats the oceans of Earth as claimed by AGWScience in their Energy Budget, as in KT97.
Because you can’t even prove that Blue Visible Light is capable of heating water.

Myrrh
June 7, 2011 2:16 pm

Matt G – by the way, the duh comment I made was to the explanation, but realised after I’d posted that I didn’t actually see that of course it was obvious only because I’d read the explanation pointing out what had to be looked for, so the duh’s on me..
Anyway, what are you thoughts on the uiuc lecture I posted re absorption of thermal heating the oceans? Really would like to know where you got your information from that it doesn’t penetrate at all, “doesn’t penetrate the skin surface”.
Do you have any information from the same source which explains how and how much blue visible lightwaves raise the temperature of water?

Tim Folkerts
June 7, 2011 3:31 pm

And this brings us back to the topic of the original post: “Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming”
Intelligently discussing ANY subject requires a common vocabulary. There are lots of terms that are similar, but not the same:
* GW and AGW and CAGW
* atmospheric greenhouse effect and horticultural greenhouse effect
* heat and thermal energy
* heating and warming
* Thermal IR and IR
Intelligently discussing ANY topic requires understanding the key principles of the subject. For the greenhouse effect and determining the expected average temperature of the earth, this includes (among many other things)
* 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics
* temperature & heat
* Planck’s Law, Stefan-Boltzmann Law & black body radiation
* emissivity and albedo of typical surfaces of the earth
* Quantum theory of vibrations of polyatomic molecules
* attenuation of light and optical depth
* IR absorption bands of CO2 & H2O
* the photon theory of light
* lapse rate, troposphere, & tropopause
It is quite possible to give broad outlines without knowing the details. It is quite impossible to “prove” anything without knowing the science. Ira knew his audience was the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group, so he aimed his talk at that level.
So it is easy to say (yet again) ” Blue photons carry energy into the ocean, but blue photons do not come out of the ocean. Photosynthesis & other chemical reactions absorbs only a small fraction of energy of the blue photons. QED the majority of the energy from the blue photos gets absorbed and turned to thermal energy within the water.” Ira’s audience would understand that as sufficient “proof” that blue light helps warm the oceans.

Matt G
June 8, 2011 10:44 am

Myrrh says:
June 7, 2011 at 2:16 pm
I have looked further into the absorption coefficients for water and this link near the bottom shows them quite well. Firstly, I have to agree with your doubts about blue visible light with water. It is not good at absorbing blue visible light, but incorrect to suggest it doesn’t absorb at all. It is fair to say that blue visible light is the poorest at absorption in visible band because it has the lowest coefficient, travels the furthest and the colour we see with our own eyes, is mainly the one with is generally not being absorbed. It is absorbed eventually, but takes much further to absorb it. This in turn causes the water to warm per mm much less than other visible bands, but warms this little amount for a much further distance.
http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/o4s/001/mt001a_2.php
I seen the link about solar infrared suppose to warm the ocean by 60 percent in the first meter. I have looked into this further and this is shortwave radiation, not longwave radiaiton. The infrared in this context is that of mainly in the near IR band. Near IR (red visible) has a absorption coeffient 100 times bigger than blue visible light, but can warm the ocean about one meter below. The observed evidence why longwaves can’t warm the ocean below the surface is down to the absorption coeffient is extremely high, all is absorbed within the first 3 mm’s, depending on where in the band. (just nm’s in some regions)
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html
The problem then is this energy is easily lost being so close to the surface by latent heat. It makes it extremely difficult for energy to build up in the ocean depths. Thats why energy from shortwave can be long lasting and have a long term trend when it penetrates much deeper. Cloud albedo especially affects how much light penetrates the oceans. The absorption coeffient of water is the solid evidence that supports shortwaves warming the oceans and the previous links for observed shortwave and longwave over a period of years.

Myrrh
June 8, 2011 10:47 am

Tim – so we agree about something then… (the level of Ira’s audience of astute and tech savvy Technology, Engineering and Science Plus group).
Yes, I can quite imagine it’s very easy to say to such an audience:
“Blue photons carry energy into the ocean, but blue photons do not come out of the ocean. Photosynthesis & other chemical reactions absorbs only a small fraction of energy of the blue photons. QED the majority of the energy from the blue photons gets absorbed and turned to thermal energy within the water.” Ira’s audience would understand that as sufficient “proof” that blue light helps warm the oceans.
But it’s Myrrh you’re talking to.
Your QED is BS as I’m sure all the real scientists reading this understand very well indeed.
Provide the figures, provide the physics which shows exactly how Blue Visible light acts in water, and take out of the AGWScience energy budget whatever ‘amount’ has been given as Blue light’s contribution to heating the oceans and land.
Now, let’s do the other colours shall we?

Matt G
June 8, 2011 11:14 am

Typo- below is the correct spelling.
“coefficient”