Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.

In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

Highlight scene from former VP Al Gore's Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An Inconvenient Truth. Dramatic correlation between temperature and CO2 over past 600,000 years. Implication that global mean temperature rise will parallel CO2 increases. But, which way does the causation go? {Annotations by ira@techie.com, TVPClub.blogspot.com}

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.

  1. Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
  2. To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
  3. We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
  4. But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
  5. You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
  6. The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
  7. The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
  8. A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.

B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.

  1. VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
  2. The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
  3. Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
  4. Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
  5. The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
  6. But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
  7. When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
  8. In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
  9. Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
  10. Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
  11. How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
  12. Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
  13. The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
  14. According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
  15. These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).

C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

IPCC 1990 recognized Medieval Warm Period (MWP) temperatures were above current levels. IPCC 2001 used the "Hockey Stick" chart that makes MWP disappear.
  1. I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)
2007 email from Sato to Hansen details seven analyses of 1934 vs 1998. 1934 starts off with a 0.5ºC lead and ends up in a dead heat.
  1. Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
  2. The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
  3. Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
  4. I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”

D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.

  1. I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
  2. However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
  3. There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
  4. However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
  5. Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
  6. If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
  7. As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
  8. You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”

I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)

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Matt G
June 5, 2011 2:05 pm

wayne says:
June 5, 2011 at 11:30 am
Sorry I have confused you and thankyou for those data readings. I really do appreciate the time you spent on them. Part of the problem has been this discussion between me and Myrrh had continued from another thread, so we both knew what we meant, but of course the vagueness caused misunderstandings for others.
I have now noticed this just is a little misunderstanding.
Only reason why stated near IR is not hot was due to compared the overall sun, thats why stated a star of this type would struggle to heat a planet at this distance. It is enough to contribute with warming the planet Earth as a source from our star combined with the shorter wavelengths.
“On your main issue, no one was saying “all”, well, maybe Myrrh but not me, you were claiming no invisible infrared warming. I made that clear above and was asking you to provide the division of the portions of visible and above in comparison to the infrared.”
This is the main mis-understanding as I was replying to Myrrh, who was claiming no shortwave IR actually warming the planet and that the warming was just emissions from absorbed shorter wavelengths. The data you have given also backs up thermal IR to be a very small amount from the sun. I have not seen near IR and visible values hardly any different from quoted in the data you posted.
p.s. Thermal IR in this context was the bands including only MIR and LIR. (from 4-5µm) Sometimes when posting about the same topic in different threads can get mixed up what was mentioned before in the same one.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/25/snowball-earth-ended-by-methane-now-an-impossible-theory/#comments
“I don’t include most of MWIR (thermal) and none of LWIR (thermal) because it doesn’t penetrate the skin surface of water and can be classed as longwave. Shortwave radiation has never been meant to be thermal IR in my descriptions. These include skin layer mentioned, with longwave radiation that thermal IR mainly comes into. To be clear by shortwave from the sun, it represents a range of total energy from 0 – 4μm. This includes for example visible, uv and infrared (but only part of it)”
This was when Myrrh was claiming only thermal IR (heat) was from only the bands named thermal MIR and LIR.

Matt G
June 5, 2011 2:10 pm

Typo.
(from 4-5µm+)

Joel Shore
June 5, 2011 2:30 pm

RJ says:

Forget about science as this whole AGW / CAGW discussion mostly ignores science and evidence.

Well, yes, you certainly seem to be doing that. Tim and Ira and I, on the other hand, are not.

Using common sense it can not come from the atmosphere. Energy can not leave earth and somehow magically multiply itself in the atmosphere and return as a greater amount.

You have failed to show either that the accepted empirically-measured values quoted are wrong or that they violate the conservation of energy in any way whatsoever. On the other hand, you are defending nonsense that clearly does violate conservation of energy.

And if you read the Postma paper with an open mind (something so far you have refused to do) you would see the science to back this up.

You have read the Postma paper with such an “open mind” that you allow the nonsense that he spews to enter your mind with no actual thought process to consider whether it is science is pseudoscience. I, on the other hand, have explained EXACTLY what Postma gets right and what he gets wrong.

Richard M
June 5, 2011 4:15 pm

Joel Shore: Any model of the system would have the greenhouse gases radiating according to their temperature and emissivity.
Yes, and nothing I said contradicts that. All I stated was GHGs may get heated through other means. Also, all the models are showing a hot spot where none exists. Maybe the situation is more complex than you and the modellers think.

Joel Shore
June 5, 2011 6:13 pm

Richard M says:

Also, all the models are showing a hot spot where none exists.

This is just a meaningless skeptic talking point. See http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/03/yes-impossibly-stupid-weather-panic-is-the-new-normal/#comment-673349 and here http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/03/yes-impossibly-stupid-weather-panic-is-the-new-normal/#comment-673360

Myrrh
June 5, 2011 7:00 pm

Wayne, I’d written a post to you about the divisions of thermal and non-thermal, and posted it on the JoNova page by mistake, too many windows open.. If it’s still there, you can read it on:
http://joannenova.com.au/2011/05/so-what-is-the-second-darn-law/comment-page-9/#comment-332060

Tim Folkerts
June 5, 2011 8:12 pm

Smokey,
I think I am getting closer to understanding one more of our differences — and it is mostly about terminology.
We were agreeing (I think!) that the anthropogenic global warming (AGW) hypothesis is something like:
“HYPOTHESIS: Temperatures of the last 100 years ARE INDEED higher than expected compared to temperatures of the previous several millennia due to human “experimentation” with the environment in the form of increased CO2. ”
The null hypothesis would then be that temperatures are within normal ranges compared to past millennia.
However you then ADD an additional condition that “the ‘experiment’ you refer to should have some evidence showing global harm due to CO2.” That is a completely different hypothesis.
It is completely possible to have evidence for the first hypothesis (which is what I believe) without evidence for the second (which is what you believe).
Or stated another way, I accept AGW; you don’t accept CAGW. That, in and of itself, does not put us in disagreement. In fact, it has been pretty clear that Ira accepts AGW but not CAGW.
If we (and everyone) else is clear about WHICH hypothesis they are discussing and how various data supports or refutes that hypothesis, then discussions will be much more productive.

June 5, 2011 8:42 pm

Tim Folkerts,
Let me be clear: I accept the radiative physics that says there will be some warming due to CO2. In other words, I’m in agreement with Ira. The question is: how much warming? Dr Miskolczi estimates the sensitivity to 2xCO2 at zero. Dr Spencer estimates it to be 0.46°C. Prof Lindzen estimates it to be ≤1°C. No one has a definitive answer, but since there has been no warming for the past decade [while CO2 continues to rise], common sense would indicate that the sensitivity number is somewhere between Lindzen’s and Miskolczi’s. The IPCC’s estimate of 3°C appears to be increasingly preposterous – and they have a vested financial interest in alarming the public, so anything they say must be taken with a big grain of salt.
I don’t accept catastrophic AGW [CAGW] because there is absolutely no evidence that the climate is doing anything out of the ordinary. When a conjecture is completely evidence-free, the wise course of action is to accept that it is evidence-free for a good reason: the conjecture is simply wrong.
And you’re right, it is a different hypothesis to declare that CO2 is “harmless.” But in order to falsify that hypothesis, you must provide testable evidence of global harm due specifically to CO2. So far, my hypothesis states that CO2 is harmless, and that hypothesis remains standing. No one has falsified it per the scientific method.
Finally, I should point out that the trend line from the LIA is on track. It has not accelerated, which it certainly should have if CO2 was causing increased global warming.
I would suggest that you open your mind to the possibility that CO2 is, in fact, harmless for all practical purposes, and that a degree or two of warming from whatever cause is, on balance, a net positive for the biosphere – as it always has been in the past. The atmosphere is more starved of CO2 now than it has been for the past 570 million years, and agricultural production tracks the current increase in CO2, indicating that the rise in CO2 is beneficial.
Conclusion: CO2 is harmless and beneficial. More is better. And solid empirical evidence of global damage from CO2 is necessary to falsify that hypothesis.

June 5, 2011 10:05 pm

Joel Shore says:June 4, 2011 at 7:49 pm
The equation is worthless. The authors of the notes state that the CO2 radiation band is 100% absorbed within a specific distance. Your equation always leaves some energy left over that miraculously could in theory make it all the way out to space unmolested by CO2.
As an example, if I start with 12 steps which accounts for 99.975% of the energy, and use the 6 foot that is reported for extinction, that leaves half the units absorbed in 6 inches of atmosphere. If I change it to 36 steps which accounts for 99.9999999985448% of the energy, that distance for half of the energy absorbed changes to 2 inches.

RJ
June 6, 2011 12:33 am

Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
June 5, 2011 at 2:52 pm
“It cannot be from the Sun because the Sun sends the exact same number, 50, each cycle.”
But your example clearly shows the 50 balls are from the sun??
I don’t even know why we are debating this. The energy must come from the sun. If not the atmosphere is somehow (magically) creating additional energy.
Is science so confused by detail and poorly understood theories (conservation of energy) that scientific fiction (the extra 33ºC) can pass almost without comment.

RJ
June 6, 2011 12:47 am

Smokey says:
June 5, 2011 at 8:42 pm
“Let me be clear: I accept the radiative physics that says there will be some warming due to CO2. In other words, I’m in agreement with Ira. The question is: how much warming? ”
I think sceptics need to be clearer with their wording. CO2 does not directly cause some warming. All CO2 can do is (maybe) slow the cooling rate (which might increase the average temperatures over a period) after the sun and only the sun warms the surface. (but the amount from extra CO2 would be tiny).
Until this point is clearly made by sceptics we are just playing into the alarmists hands.
A colder body (the atmosphere) can not heat a warmer one (earth). This applies to all energy flows including radiation.

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 3:58 am

MattG – re your post: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/30/skeptic-strategy-for-talking-about-global-warming/#comment-673015
And your “I don’t include most of MWRI (thermal) and any of LWRI (thermal) because it doesn’t penetrate the skin surface of water and can be classed as longwave.” as in /comment-674343
I’d really like to sort this out because it doesn’t make any sense to me. What exactly do you mean by “doesn’t penetrate the skin surface of water”? Where does this come from?
What this implies is that 100% of thermal IR bounces off all the oceans, and land, and is reflected back into the atmosphere. Doesn’t it?
To remind what I’m saying, (trying also to avoid the confusion created by discussing this with you elsewhere), I’m saying that shortwave energies don’t have the ability to heat water and land because of the nature of their properties, they are light and not heat energies from the Sun.
Light energies from the Sun, the shortwave, and we are in agreement that these are not thermal (unlike Ira’s claim that these are the heat we feel from the Sun), in the KT97 are said to be the only ones which heat the Earth on reaching the surface, directly heating land and oceans. I’m arguing that these light-weight energies, energetic as they are, are practically incapable of doing so.
For example, in Visible light-weight passing through our atmosphere, these are easily scattered by all the bigger molecules of oxygen and nitrogen which is what gives us our blue skies, neither I nor the KT97 say that these are creating heat in the atmosphere, in shorthand, this is because the atmosphere is ‘transparent’ to them. What is actually happening according to the photon theory (for any rooting for wave only), is that the atom of these molecules is briefly raised in energy in the bounce which then relaxes back into its previous state and emits a photon of the same light wavelength in doing so. Wave theory ditto effect, the higher energy of the light wave is still very much light-weight compared with the bigger molecules of nitrogen and oxygen, it simply bounces off and goes off in another direction. Either way, Blue light gets scattered. In the oceans, these same constraints are in place, visible light is light-weight compared with the molecules of water, it to is ‘transparent’ to visible light, blue light being more so than the slightly bigger/longer wavelengths of red, so the red doesn’t travel as deeply as the blue.
Here, all the ‘high energy hype’ of the photon/wave length of visible light is capable of doing in air and water is to bounce off staying the same wavelength, its energy merely ‘used’ to emit a wavelength of itself. Like the ball in a pinball machine, this energy has hardly any effect at all on the bigger molecules, it is certainly not creating heat.
Again just to remind, direct creation of heat is only one of the effects energy can have. Reflection unchanged wavelength and chemical changes in photosynthesis do not include heat creation for example, the energy is used differently. Although the plant may then create heat when using the results of the sugars created by burning them for growth etc, this is not direct heat creation from shortwave from the Sun which KT97 claims directly heats land and oceans to raise the temperature of the Earth to give off said amount of thermal infrared.
You are claiming that the AGWScience is right here, that these shortwave non-thermal energies actually heat land and oceans. How if you’re also saying with AGWScience that these do not heat the atmosphere on their way to the surface? Describe the process.
So my question, to help concentrate this problem because of the claim that blue light heats the oceans even deeper, how with a wavelength/photon of blue visible shortwave?
I on the other will stick to known physics that thermal IR has this particular ability to heat land and oceans, because, whether you think of it as real heat on the move as the thermal wavelength as in the heat radiating out from a non-glowing hot plate, or as energy creating heat in the subject by a difference in action, rotational resonance in contrast to shortwave’s reflecting by briefly and minutely knocking an atom into a higher energy state sufficient for that to release the same light and not heat as it says, wtfwast and gives a little scratch, this physics is known to actually work in our real world. We don’t have any blue light heaters and cooking appliances, we do have thermal infrared heaters for our homes and our bodies and appliances in actual viable production using thermal infrared to cook dinners (there’s a ceramic grill for example).
The Smokey test I’ve been calling it from something he said..
Some reminders from my viewpoint.
Here’s another reference from a NASA question and answer page on the Sun: http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sun.html to remind that it is traditional physics that the heat we feel from the Sun is thermal infrared:

30. How Long for the Sun’s Heat to Reach Earth?
How long does it take heat created on the Sun’s surface to reach Earth? Is it the same as the speed of light?
Heat is transmitted through conduction, convection, and radiation. The heat that reaches us from the Sun is infrared radiation, which travels at the speed of light. So,
it takes about 8 minutes for it to reach Earth from the Sun.

From http://www.telelec.com/heat_transfer_fund.htm to show that light and heat energies are distinct in common usage in applied science:

Radiation is the transfer of heat energy by electromagnetic (infrared) waves and is very different from conduction and convection. Conduction and convection take place when the material being heated is in direct contact with the heat source. In infrared heating, there is no direct contact with the heat source. Infrared energy travels in straight lines through space or vacuum (similar to light) and does not produce heat energy until absorbed. The converted heat energy is then transferred in the material by conduction or convection.

And from http://www.biocab.org/Heat_Transfer.html

Water has a specific Heat of 4.190 kJ/Kg.K, while air has a specific heat of 1.0057 kJ/Kg.K, and soil have a Specific Heat of 0.725kJ/Kg.K.
Water has a Specific Heat higher than soil and air; then, the
Thermal Capacity of water is higher than the Thermal Capacity of the air and the soil. To a greater Thermal Capacity, a slower rate of dissipation of heat. …The rule is, if you get it fast you will lose it fast. ….
Water absorbs the incoming solar Infrared Radiation because the frequency of the internal vibration of the water molecule is the same frequency of the waves of the solar Infrared Radiation. This form of Radiative Heat transfer is known as Resonance Absorption.
We humans feel the heat radiated by the Sun and other systems with a higher temperature because our bodies contain 55-75% of water. The radiative energy inciding on our skin is absorbed by the molecules of water in our bodies by Resonance Absorption. Just then, the Infrared Radiation absorbed by our bodies leads to a more intense internal vibration of the water molecules in our bodies and our bodies get warmer. However, in general, living being possess thermoregulatory systems that permit us to eliminate the excess of heat from our bodies, maintaining a quasi-stable internal temperature (it is one of the homeostatic processes of biosystems).
If the Earth did not have water, nights would be extremely cold.

So, I’m interested to know exactly what you mean that water’s surface doesn’t allow penetration by thermal infrared, “doesn’t penetrate the skin surface”. And, if you can remember, where you came by this, or give an example or more of someone teaching it.

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 5:34 am

Re claims for Carbon Dioxide from AGWScience:
http://www.suite101.com/content/greenhouse-gas-theory-discredited-by-coolant-carbon-dioxide-a365870

“In his new paper (http://www.biocab.org/Mean_Free_Path.pdf), ‘Determination of the Total Emissivity of a Mixture of Gases Containing 5% of Water Vapor and 0.039% of Carbon Dioxide at Overlapping Absorption Bands’ the Mexican biologist turned climate researcher proves that in nature, CO2 and water vapor mix together to decrease infrared radiation emissions/absorptions in the air. This is the opposite of what conventional climatology has been saying for years.

Nasif says, “To my surprise, I found that the hypothesis was flawed and that the AGW proponents were inventing variables and constants. As I starting to apply the correct data and algorithms, I was realizing that the whole hypothesis was wrong from the physics standpoint.”

Has this been posted for general discussion anywhere on WUWT?

Brian H
June 6, 2011 5:46 am

RJ says:
June 6, 2011 at 12:47 am
….
I think sceptics need to be clearer with their wording. CO2 does not directly cause some warming. All CO2 can do is (maybe) slow the cooling rate (which might increase the average temperatures over a period) after the sun and only the sun warms the surface. (but the amount from extra CO2 would be tiny).

Indeed.
I once laid out a thought experiment/model, such that all the CO2 in the atmosphere was added at one go, instantaneously. There would be a brief interruption of OLR, with the resultant warming of the atmosphere and surface to a new balance point, which would then be maintained. The total amount of retained heat would be a function of that lag X the energy of the interrupted photons.
Then, if later the CO2 is (magically) instantaneously removed, the balance point would hang on for the same lag time, and then revert to the previous value (always assuming unchanging solar influx).
So the crucial computations are of the lag and the energy level of the interrrupted/delayed photons.

Brian H
June 6, 2011 5:53 am

Myrrh;
Your posts are becoming more risible, if that were possible.
We don’t have blue radiant heaters for the simple reason that they take too much energy to heat to that point, and would be dangerously hot if we did. We warm hotplates to red heat, because that’s enough. Bringing them to white heat (all visible wavelengths included) is very dangerous, and would burn everything placed on them prettydamnquick.
Elaborated ignorance is still ignorance.

June 6, 2011 7:04 am

Tim Folkerts says:
June 5, 2011 at 8:12 pm
“HYPOTHESIS: Temperatures of the last 100 years ARE INDEED higher than expected compared to temperatures of the previous several millennia due to human “experimentation” with the environment in the form of increased CO2. ”
The null hypothesis would then be that temperatures are within normal ranges compared to past millennia.”
Speaking for myself I disagree with the above specifically this part “…ARE INDEED higher than expected compared to temperatures of the previous several millennia”.
Holocene Optimum temperatures were higher than today by 6-9 degrees F. So until we go higher than past Holocene temperatures we are not have an “experimentation”.

Myrrh
June 6, 2011 7:55 am

BrianH – you’re still missing my point. This is precisely the claim from the AGWScience’s Energy Budget, that Visible light, that includes Blue Visible, is what converts to energy on reaching the Earth’s surface, and thus heats the land and oceans.
I don’t care how it is produced, it doesn’t actually take great heat to produce blue light, there are other ways, led ring a bell? The science of light energies and what they can and cannot do is understood extremely well now, do a search on different lightbulbs etc.
So, I don’t care how you produce the Blue Visible Light, prove that this can convert to heat land and oceans as CLAIMED in the AGWScience Energy Budget, Kt97. Until you can prove that Visible light direct from the Sun can raise the actual temperature of the Earth to radiate out the amount of Thermal IR as claimed in this AGWScienceFiction, then it cannot be included in the ‘Energy Budget’.
AGWScience is full of these kinds of tweaks which have otherwise ‘skeptics’ believing that it is REAL science. I’m asking a specific question, try and answer it.
They are really quite expert at mixing and matching out of context properties and processes, deliberately to confuse the unsuspecting. It is these very very basic premises where this takes place.
For example, this “Solar” of the energy budget of our atmosphere is likened to a ‘greenhouse glass which lets in “Solar” and blocks Thermal IR from entering’, which then these “Solar” shortwaves heat the ground of the greenhouse which produces Thermal IR and which in keeping with the meme that Thermal IR cannot penetrate glass, is then trapped in the greenhouse raising the temperature.
So first of all, I require proof that these “Solar”, UV,Visible,NrIR, can actually heat the ground. Why can’t I get it?
Then I ask, where’s the proof that glass excludes/traps Thermal IR? I give an example of an ordinary lightbulb which produces 95% of its energy as heat, thermal infrared, and only 5% as light, visible shortwave light. If you put your hand close to the bulb, but not touching it you’ll get burned, you can feel the heat from the 95% of thermal infrared being radiated out. You cannot feel visible light as heat.
So what the fracking h*ll is that as an explanation from AGWScience? It’s gobbledegook.
Now, try to answer the question I have actually asked about Blue Visible light.
As I said in the post to Wayne, and MattG, that I in error wrote on JoNova’s page, linked to a few posts up, I HAVE A RIGHT to get this question answered, because those promoting this gobbledegook science fiction are impacting my life to its detriment.
Ira continues to avoid answering. He continues to set himself up as the voice of ‘skeptic reason’ while all the time still plugging this nonsense and urging us to give up and give them all our money.
Why doesn’t he directly give me the information I’m asking of him? Because he knows it doesn’t exist, that it is nonsense gobbledegook, either that or I’ve misjudged him, I thought he had ‘scientific’ intelligence and could actually appreciate the objections I have and understand my question.
Since he can’t prove it. You have a go. So tell me exactly how Visible Blue light, however it is produced, can heat water (and land as in the greenhouse ground).
I’ve already gone to considerable effort to show that water is transparent to Blue light, that all it does is transmit through it, reflecting all the way down which means its energy is producing nothing more than the same wavelength, unless it is being utilised in photosynthesis as it is on land and so absorbed and its energy used to produce a chemical change which is not a direct creation of heat. Look up information on Light and reflection/refraction/transmission etc.
Answer my question, give me proof, or stop promoting this which is clearly seen to be nonsense in real traditional physics.

Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 8:10 am

RJ says: June 6, 2011 at 12:47 am
“I think sceptics need to be clearer with their wording. CO2 does not directly cause some warming.
A colder body (the atmosphere) can not heat a warmer one (earth)”
Actually RJ, you also need to be more careful with wording (or better yet, we could all communicate using equations and agreed upon scientific definitions of all the words, but that will never happen here.)
WARMING ≠ HEATING (as you seemed to be implying in the above quote)
Adding insulation can “warm” your house (ie raise the temperature) because the thermal energy from the furnace does not escape from your house as easily.
Adding insulation cannot “heat” your house (ie add a net flow of energy) because the insulation does not supply any thermal energy, let alone a net flow into the house.
(And conversely, you can heat ice without warming it ie melting ice to water 0 C)
Similarly CO2 does “warm” the earth even though it does not “heat” the earth. I know this will fall on many deaf ears, but please, everyone, use the words properly.
HEAT ≠ THERMAL ENERGY (it is worth adding this while we are at it)
In thermodynamics, heat is energy in motion, while “internal energy” or “thermal energy” is used to describe the energy within an object. An object can no more “contain heat” than it can “contain work”. Heat and work only exist in the interaction of two different objects or systems.
/End Public Service Announcement/

Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 8:35 am

mkelly confuses me with his comments:
June 6, 2011 at 7:04 am

Speaking for myself I disagree with the above specifically this part “…ARE INDEED higher than expected compared to temperatures of the previous several millennia”.

That’s why it was call a HYPOTHESIS (it was in all caps even for emphasis)! This is the hypothesis we are testing; the thing we hope to accept or reject.

Holocene Optimum temperatures were higher than today by 6-9 degrees F. So until we go higher than past Holocene temperatures we are not have an “experimentation”.

ANY change in conditions can be called an “experiment”. Since when does an experiment have to show more extreme values than the control group before it is called “experimentation” ???
And, as I said before, if I flip a coin enough times, I might get heads 10 times in a row. If I then start a new experiment (say, flipping the coin with my left hand instead of my right) and it comes up heads the first 8 times, that is STILL unusual, even if it is not the MOST extreme case I have ever seen. I would still recheck the coin to make sure it was not heads on both sides.
Similarly IF the temperatures of the last 100 years are unusually high (EVEN IF they are not all time highs), THEN that can be statistically significant and worthy of further investigation. This is where it becomes important to know 1) what the temperatures are and have been historically and 2) what changes there have been to the one “experiment” we have ( the earth as a whole) so that we could predict what might have happened in the absence of changes in CO2.
These are not easy question, and not ones that can be answered at the level of high school science.
PS Do you have a source for you claim “higher than today by 6-9 degrees F”? A few quick web searches suggest that the the global temperature was maybe 2-3 F warmer than today.

June 6, 2011 8:36 am

Tim Folkerts says:
June 6, 2011 at 8:10 am
Completly agree with:”In thermodynamics, heat is energy in motion, while “internal energy” or “thermal energy” is used to describe the energy within an object. An object can no more “contain heat” than it can “contain work”. Heat and work only exist in the interaction of two different objects or systems.”
You could have added “trap heat”, but a very very minor point. I endorse the use of equations in support of an idea or point being made.

June 6, 2011 8:54 am

Tim Folkerts,
Your 8 out of 10 coin flips argument is very weak. It appears that you’re looking for a reason to be alarmed. There is nothing unusual about current temperatures. The globe has warmed on its trend line from the LIA, always regressing to the mean. Over the past century and a half that warming has amounted to only ≈0.7°C. During the Holocene optimums temperatures have been significantly higher.
If CO2 caused any measurable warming on top of the natural warming trend from the LIA, then temperatures would be accelerating. But they are not. Observed temperatures are fully explained by natural variability, and the wild-eyed arm waving over every temporary spike is anything but scientific.
Doesn’t the fact that thermal expansion of the oceans does not support AGW? In fact, practically every AGW prediction made has been falsified. A reasonable scientist would conclude that the AGW hypothesis is basically in error, no?

RJ
June 6, 2011 9:09 am

Tim Folkerts says:
June 6, 2011 at 8:10 am
“Similarly CO2 does “warm” the earth even though it does not “heat” the earth. I know this will fall on many deaf ears, but please, everyone, use the words properly. ”
But wouldn’t it be clearly to say might (or does) reduces the rate of cooling.
Warming or heating food means similar to me. But reducing the cooling rate of food is something quiet different.
I know it might be seem like nit picking but as a non scientist (when first trying to get my head around this issue) reading a comment stressing that CO2 only reduces the rate of cooling provided clarity that claims of warming did not.
CO2 might reduce the rate of surface cooling after the sun sets and after the surface is warmed by the sun. It does not and can not directly warm or heat the surface. Only maybe increase average temperatures (very slightly) over a period of time.

June 6, 2011 9:17 am

Tim Folkerts says:
June 6, 2011 at 8:35 am
PS Do you have a source for you claim “higher than today by 6-9 degrees F”? A few quick web searches suggest that the the global temperature was maybe 2-3 F warmer than today.
“The Holocene Climate Optimum warm event consisted of increases of up to 4 °C near the North Pole (in one study, winter warming of 3 to 9 °C and summer of 2 to 6 °C in northern central Siberia).[1]” From Wikipeadia.
Depends on where you cherry pick from. 4 C = 7.2 F 7.2 F is between 6-9 F

Tim Folkerts
June 6, 2011 10:57 am

It is amazing how many times Myrrh can be told basic science and STILL not understand!

They are really quite expert at mixing and matching out of context properties and processes, deliberately to confuse the unsuspecting.

Or more correctly, they are quite expert at collaterally confusing the uninformed.
“BrianH – you’re still missing my point. This is precisely the claim from the AGWScience’s Energy Budget, that Visible light, that includes Blue Visible, is what converts to energy on reaching the Earth’s surface, and thus heats the land and oceans. ”
Myrrh, you are once again missing the point. The claim from AGW science is that visible light is PART of what converts to heat on reaching the surface (along with other wavelengths of EM energy from the sun and other wavelengths of EM energy from the atmosphere).
As Wayne, posted earlier,
0.475 0.490 6.690535 Visible – Blue
blue light (which for the sake of discussion he defined as 0.475 – 0.490 um) from the sun provides 6.69 W/m^2 at the top of the atmosphere. Some of this is reflected by the clouds. Some is reflected by the clouds. Some is reflected by the surface. About 30% of visible light is reflected, so about 70% reaches the surface. As I explained to you once long ago, only a very small fraction of this goes into photosynthesis (and even then, most of that is released when the plants decay/get eaten).
Net result — roughly4 W/m^2 of energy from blue light reaches the surface (ie is not reflected or used for photosynthesis). From conservation of energy, this energy must be going SOMEWHERE, and the only “somewhere” is thermal energy of the land and oceans.

I’ve already gone to considerable effort to show that water is transparent to Blue light, that all it does is transmit through it, reflecting all the way down.

Blue light transmits pretty well thru water, but if you dive down 1000 m into the ocean, I guarantee you will not see any blue sunlight, so it does not “reflect all the way down” as you claim. ~ 4 W/m^2 of blue light enters the top; ~ none leaves. The 4 W/m^s must get absorbed by the water (or impurities in the water).
Now add up all the other wavelengths from the sun (roughly 0.1 um to 4 um), determine how much of each is reflected (or goes to any form of energy other than thermal), and you get the ~170 W/m^2 from K&T.

For example, this “Solar” of the energy budget of our atmosphere is likened to a ‘greenhouse glass

Only the uninformed think that there is a direct correlation between glass greenhouses and the atmospheric greenhouse effect. It is a simple analogy to help the scientifically uninformed get a starting idea. For a deeper understanding, you need to actually study science and the real “atmospheric greenhouse effect”.

Then I ask, where’s the proof that glass excludes/traps Thermal IR?

As just pointed out, this is a complete red herring in terms of global warming, that only the uninformed would worry about.
But even so, Google images of “IR spectrum glass” and you will get lots of hits. This one is especially simple http://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/general-electronics-chat/17262d1202591701-infrared-illumination-ir-through-glass-soda-20lime.jpg The specific glass transmits visible and a goo bit of the IR, and absorbs much of the long wavelength IR. It is not that hard to find or understand if you know a bit about the topic

As I said in the post to Wayne, and MattG, … I HAVE A RIGHT to get this question answered.

No constitution that I know of provides a right to answers. There are some rights to information, which you may well have where you live. There is a responsibility of public servants to try yo serve the public, which includes publicly-employed scientists to communicate what they learn.
But answers and understanding you have to come to yourself. If you cannot understand or work with basic science concepts, then no one can answer you.
So, Myrrh, show us that you have some basic knowledge of the topics of with you speak.

I give an example of an ordinary lightbulb which produces 95% of its energy as heat, thermal infrared, and only 5% as light, visible shortwave light. If you put your hand close to the bulb, but not touching it you’ll get burned, you can feel the heat from the 95% of thermal infrared being radiated out. You cannot feel visible light as heat.

You seem quite sure of yourself here. Please define (preferably with equations or numbers) what you understand the following to mean. Then we can have an intelligent discussion of your issues.
“heat”
“thermal infrared”
“light”
“visible shortwave light”
Please teach us how you know that the energy from the bulb is 95% thermal infrared (a calculation likes Wayne’s or even a reputable citation would do). preferably, Show us the distribution of energy at different wavelengths.
After you have calculated how much energy from a light bulb is visible, tells us what happens to this energy if the visible light hits something like a black piece of paper. Or the ocean. Or your hand

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