When I first saw this I thought to myself “maybe posting this isn’t appropriate on Veterans Day”. Then, after additional reflection, I realized this is exactly what our American veterans and the allies fought for: freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny. The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues. – Anthony
~~~~~~
From Pierre Gosselins “No Tricks Zone”, apparently they really don’t like Fred Singer in Germany.
Branding of Dissenters Has Begun – Clearing The Path To A Climate Science Pogrom
What is it with these intolerant zealots who refuse to learn anything from history?
Right smack on the anniversary of Kristallnacht, German Parliamentarians, in a frontal assault, are now openly calling out and branding scientists for the crime of scientific dissent. These out-of-control Parliamentarians are demanding that the German government take a position against dissenting views in climate science.
What follows makes McCarthyism look like a treasure hunt. What a number of zealous German Parliamentarians are calling for borders on a call to launch a science pogrom.
The climate dogmatists are finding it increasingly difficult to cope with the growing scepticism and dissent now spreading in Germany and Europe, and want to stamp it out – and now.
Journalist Dirk Maxeiner here brings our attention to this latest development on the exploding intolerance that has gripped certain factions in Germany. The branding of climate science dissenters has begun. Fred Singer and EIKE (European Institute For Climate and Energy) are the first to feel the sting of the denier-branding-iron. Read background here.
Some may think that I’m being over-dramatic here. I am not. The situation that the few, yet very vocal, sceptics face here is precarious. Just read the following query written by a faction of Parliamentarians to the German Government, translated from the German text at Dirk Maxeiner’s site (emphasis added, and note the use of the term “denier” throughout the text)):
Read the full post here: Branding of Dissenters Has Begun – Clearing The Path To A Climate Science Pogrom
Luboš Motl has an opinion also, here
@Pull My Finger
Any German folk on the list please let me know if my definition of these groups is unfair.
Your definition of these groups is unfair.
“The Left” – Basically Communists – 11.1%
“The Left” is half ex-East German communist, half dissenting West German social democrats. I voted for them last time round because they are the only mainstream party opposed to welfare cuts, which I am and which is currently the most pressing political issue in my view. At the same time I’m as anti-communist as you can get. I’m not the only one fitting that description.
“the Greens” 9.2%
The Greens are not “left” by any meaningful standard. They are middle class. The “leftie” image they once had is long over, their politics certainly are not “leftie”. Take for example their views on welfare and economy, there they mostly are what we call in Europe “neo liberal”, which I think translates best to reaganite/monetaristic in American terms (though milder). All mainstream parties in Germany except “The Left” are in the same boat though.
So nealry 1/4 Germans can be considered to hold extremist political views
Ex falso quodlibet
I have to say that after years of thoroughly enjoying the comments on WUWT, this is the first time I am repulsed by a lot of the comments on this thread.
This knee-jerk reaction by a lot of commenters of insulting the complete German people (and in some instances/comments the European people) by talking about yellow stars, nazi’s, world wars and socialism in relation to this green-party stupidity is very sad!
Maybe the Yanks with the big mouth should first get rid of Michael Mann, James Hansen, Al Gore, Gavin Schmidt, Obama and all those other Americans who stood at the birth of the CAGW scare!
Do not misunderstand, my wife and daughter are US (born-)citizens, I love the USA and its people and have had great respect for the level of intelligence shining from most comments on this site, but a lot of people here are now doing EXACTLY the same intolerant BS that we here always accuse the warmists of doing! Please stop.
I am quite disturbed by the number of quite nasty and xenophobic comments that are appearing on this thread.
While it is often difficult to maintain a proper balance in one’s attitude to the events of the world and to the many wrongs and injustices perpetrated by man against man, an ignorance of history and pride in one’s own culture often leads the ignorant and unthinking to make jingoistic and offensive comments which are singularly unproductive.
My reading of history tells me that few nations come out of either World War One or Two smelling of roses, and tarring all German people with the Nazi brush and classifying all of the Allied combatants as pure and heroic is as woefully ignorant and as incorrect as the claims by some Americans that ‘they won both both world wars’.
Can I suggest that a knowledge of the history of the ‘modern’ era is essential for balance. No one race has a patent on cruelty or ignorance, but ignorance can be remedied. Democracy and freedom of the individual are relatively new concepts in the history of Mankind; I suspect they are both fragile and quite easily lost if we return to the ignorant state of unthinking tribalism. Reading other blogs, such as the Guardian’s CiF, and viewing the incredible ‘Red Button’ video produced by the 1010 organisation gives an indication of the brutal, bloodthirsty and tribal inclinations of many Green activists and apologists. Let’s not go there.
The grant ‘carrots’ haven’t worked. The threat ‘sticks’ won’t either. What’s the next move? I see ‘mandatory’ looming.
Hello together,
being a German writer and not a climate scientist, I greatly appreciate how many sympathy I read in the article and comments with us Germans who disagree with the real climate change deniers, the Greens (die Grünen) and some others. The matter indeed is fearful, and I do hope it really is the last battle (Will they surrender in May?) There might be a severe winter in stall for us – I wonder whether the discussion then comes round the corner.
Again – many thanks to all commentators here in favor of freedom of speech and thinking! (Mistakes in English please excuse!)
Chris Frey
I’m surprised that no-one called for Fred Singer to sue for defamation. As someone has already pointed out “Denial” aka “Holocaust Denial” is a federal crime in Germany. It would be straightforward to claim that Dr Singer is being accused of a crime.
THe march of history…
What is that noise?
Who are the hooded hordes
Emerging from the castle walls,
Their incantations
Resounding through the land?
Perhaps we should be supporting those who support real science in Germany as opposed to those who support dogma? There are a few dogmatic folk slipping into cultural sterotypes here by the looks of it.
I completely agree. However the loading up of rhetoric from the Third Reich appears to be coming from the worst possible direction – Germany itself.
anorak2, I just read the Left’s platform and they are definately teetering on the edge of economic communism and Green authoritarianism. Government control of industry and wages, and while they stress “individual freedoms” in their platform statement their intentions would fully sublimate individual freedoms to their extremest environmental and social/economic controls. There are all the classical buzz words and catch phrases of the far-left. They do not strike me as your run of the mill, European, Social Democrats.
The Left in English
http://die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/international/programmatic_points.pdf
The Greens may not be traditional left, but they are extremest and willing to promote the health of the environment over the health and welfare of the individual. And yes, for those that were wondering their are “Grune Jungen”. Enjoy the imagery at the site.
http://www.gruene-jugend.de/
Greens Platform in English
http://www.gruene-partei.de/cms/files/dokbin/145/145643.party_program_and_principles.pdf
And to the person who thought mentioning Nazis was jumping to conclusions, when small but growing, influential, and bellicose German political parties start tossing about the words Climate Liars and branding, Nazis do tend to pop to mind. Sorry if I can’t help myself.
Really? That is why the American right-wing better understands economics and energy policy?
Is this a joke? Please tell me which economic policies they support that has anything remotely to do with Reaganomics, Monetarism or Neo-liberal economics.
Wow, you have effectively discredited yourself on economic policy.
I recommend reading,
Eigentümlich Frei
Anyway, at the risk of rapid firing posts, I don’t mean to offened or tar Germans with an overly broad brush, as I noted way up high, Adenaurs, Kohls, Merkels, and Schmidts have certainly steered Germany on a positive, if occasionally veering, post-war path, but the extremests in Germany seem to be more vocal and determined that in the rest of west europe, US/Canada. I just think that if a powerful Green government is going to emerge, Germany is the prime candidate due to the party’s growth, history, and intersecting platform with other parties (of course that’s what Lenin said about Communism in Germany as I recall). The Greens do not have to win a plurality to have a powerful influence on governemnt. And of course Germany is the premier power in Europe and will have a huge impact on the long term path of the EU.
Wijnand,
Don’t take the few extremist comments posted here as a representation of the feelings of all the commenters here. By doing so you are guilty of the same crime you are accusing us of.
We would love nothing more then to see them all officially (and rightfully so) discredited in the realm of public opinion.
It is fair to say the anger here should be directed at the German Green Party and not the country or German people as a whole.
On a different note I am surprised by the number of German commentators here.
THIS IS FALSE
“The seeds of tyranny appear to be taking hold again in the German government at least when it comes to climate change issues. – Anthony”
The Greens SENT a letter to the GOVERNMENT as the text CLEARLY shows. The links and text of the article CLEARLY state only the Green politicians (not in Government) have taken this action…
Lubos Motl link, to quote:
“A letter not too tastefully titled “Deniers of climate change in the coalition government”
“signed by the whole Parliamentary faction of the Greater Green Party was SENT to the government one week ago.”
The GREEN politicians writing this letter SENT it to the government.(the Greens may have a major role to lay should the existing coalition fail)
REPLY: Its an opinion, but my opinion is not false, it is in fact my opinion. And with a percentage of politicians (the green ones) taking this up, the seeds in fact have been planted. You are welcome to disagree with the opinion. – Anthony
They want to pick and choose what is believed. And worse they want to enforce it.
I am no expert but it looks like a recipe for disaster and should not be allowed.
And its not just happening in Germany.
Terri Jackson says:
November 11, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Anthony I met you at the Heartland climate conference in Maythis year where I was a speaker. It was a great conference, .however we urgently need such a conference in Europe,either the UK orGermany We need all our big names DrsSpencer,Lindzen,Singer, Plimer and Carter from down under plus Lord Monckton. The situation here is much worse than in the US In the UK and Germany the political alarmists are in total control. we should organise a organising committee now.
Dr. Singer will be speaking at the forthcoming yearly international conference on climate issues in Berlin, Germany, on December 3 and 4, 2010, along with Dr. Svensmark and Lord Mockton and others. Obviously he has been in Germany before, knows it and, unlike many bloggers in this thread, does not seem to have a major problem with modern Germany. The Berlin conference this year will be the third event in a row, after Brussels and the UK this fall. Why does not anybody know about it?
American right wing zealots are much, much less enlightened than even the most stubborn German “Green”.
Really? That is why the American right-wing better understands economics and energy policy?
I don’t think they do. Ideologies are obstacles to clear understanding of what’s going on. It doesn’t particularly matter what ideology, none helps.
The Greens are not “left” by any meaningful standard. They are middle class. The “leftie” image they once had is long over, their politics certainly are not “leftie”. Take for example their views on welfare and economy, there they mostly are what we call in Europe “neo liberal”, which I think translates best to reaganite/monetaristic in American terms (though milder). All mainstream parties in Germany except “The Left” are in the same boat though.
Is this a joke?
I know it doesn’t fit the stereotypes many people hold, but the stereotypes are decades old and need an update. The West German greens came from the left wing movement of the 1970s and they had socialists and anarchists in their ranks then, that much is true. The East German portion of the Greens came from the freedom movements that brought down the Berlin wall btw, but their influence on the party is minor. Anyway, today they are just mainstream middle class. You have to see beyond stereotypes and look at what they actually say and do.
Please tell me which economic policies they support that has anything remotely to do with Reaganomics, Monetarism or Neo-liberal economics.
A watered down European version of course, but they do. They are broadly speaking pro-capitalism, pro free-enterprice, pro deregulation and privatisation of public services, pro welfare cuts, pro tax cuts for companies and high incomes. They have done all these things when they were in government. They did not implement any socialist policies at all, not even token social democrat ones. And they’re not advocating any, not even in speech
Wow, you have effectively discredited yourself on economic policy.
You’re not in a position to pass such a judgement. 🙂
tonyb & Roy
Exactly! Thanks guys, the full quote as I learned it,
“The air of England is too pure for a slave to breathe, and so everyone who breathes it becomes free. Everyone who comes to this island is entitled to the protection of English law, whatever oppression he may have suffered and whatever may be the colour of his skin.” – William Murray, First Earl of Mansfield
Poptech says:
November 12, 2010 at 7:26 am
“On a different note I am surprised by the number of German commentators here.”
========================================================
Yeh, many more readers than commentators, usually, but when one’s homeland is mentioned it is expected to see a reaction.
The standards of civility and rational discussion espoused by wuwt have been thrown to the winds here. How does a political flurry by a German opposition fringe group translate into here-we-go-again WWI and WWII? What’s with all the ‘jokes’ about concentration camps?
What I find so astonishing about this is that American political debate is very robust, including a lot of untrue and absurd personal vilification, on both sides. So, if some fringe politicians in Germany say something stupid, it’s a sign of the revival of the Third Reich? That is accepted uncritically?
No wonder the US finds itself alone on many issues, if that is the attitude of its citizens. I am a supporter of wuwt, but demonising people because they are German is about as anti-scientific as you can get.
There are plenty of people in the US, and other countries, who espouse similar attitudes. Promoting this kind of thing is going to undermine your supposed belief in fairness and objectivity, not to mention civility.
We had Remembrance Day here on 11/11. It was taken seriously. Do not use the bodies of dead soldiers to run a political/racial line about past wars that have nothing to do with what wuwt is about.
anorak2, I have to respectfully disagree with your representation of the Green party. While traditional Left – Right is pretty useless these days, the scale of Authoritarian – Libertarian is not. The Greens are firmly Authoritarian. While they pay lip service to democracy and individual freedoms their platform is pretty obviously the opposite.
http://www.gruene-partei.de/cms/files/dokbin/145/145643.party_program_and_principles.pdf
And yes, there are “Gruene Jungend”. Quite radical as well.
http://www.gruene-jugend.de/
And as to the Left, if they were your traditional Cradle to Grave Social Democrats, why do they exist? And why are they called The Left? They are left of the SDP and are bordering on Marxist in platform, at least to my eyes. Again, they pay initial lip service to idividual freedom but paragraph by paragraph state the opposite.
http://die-linke.de/fileadmin/download/international/programmatic_points.pdf
@Pull My Finger
anorak2, I just read the Left’s platform and they are definately teetering on the edge of economic communism and Green authoritarianism. Government control of industry and wages, and while they stress “individual freedoms” in their platform statement their intentions would fully sublimate individual freedoms to their extremest environmental and social/economic controls. There are all the classical buzz words and catch phrases of the far-left.
I never denied they are socialists. They are. But you said they were communists, which they’re not. Many mainstream parties in Europe are token socialists, even many who’ve formed governments in the past decades. Nothing unusual about it. It didn’t turn Western Europe into a communist dictatorship. Some attempted to nationalise selected industries in the past with varying success, nothing spectacular. None of that is happening now or is likely to in the foreseeable future, it is so against the current climate.
They do not strike me as your run of the mill, European, Social Democrats.
Effectively they’re similar to the Social Democrats as they were 40 years ago, which explains their success in what used to be West Germany.
About the climate thing, yes “The Left” have some green and “climate” agendas, but you have to realise that all parties in Germany have that. There is currently none who are openly opposed to “climate change politics”, and that is really the worrying part. “The Left” do not emphasize that issue much though.
The Greens may not be traditional left, but they are extremest and willing to promote the health of the environment over the health and welfare of the individual.
Yes. But that is not “left wing” in my book. Classical marxism strives for more wealth to the average worker (how good they’re at achieving that is a separate issue). The Greens OTOH preach that consumerism is “bad”, i.e. effectively the opposite. Furthermore all parties in Germany worry about “climate change”, merely at varying degrees. You see we live in an age where the “green” ideology is not contained in a single party, it’s everywhere. In Germany we do not have a mainstream opposition to it.
I’m sorry if I have offended anyone…
“That the seeds are taking hold in Germany,’ that is a perfectly valid opinion….I would agree with that statement myself, and I am concerned by it. The greens have a strong voice in Germany.
we are perhaps talking at cross purposes, and maybe I’m being pedantic.
I was just pointing out, that you said in the Government. (not Germany)
When in fact the Green were writing to the Government (not part of it)
and trying to put pressure on the Government.
sorry if I’m too pedantic on this.
The German Greens were founded mainly by Marxists and Maoists as Fischer, Trittin, Bahro, Dutschke etc. As their green fanatism grew, Marxism faded, but left positions are still upheld.
They are against free markets in principle, they want to tax everything twice, they want to transfer much more money to the welfare system, they believe that the state has to regulate everything – they just are a New Left party coloured green and eager to dominate citizens. They would welcome a Tyranny for the Good of the World.
Many members are all kinds of civil servants, teachers especially, about 80% of the teachers are green or red. But GREEN is the fashion with many academics, journalists included.
The green influence is not only strong on the government parties, which have taken up green programmes, it is very strong in the European Union, too.
As C. S. Lewis observed:
”Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.*
* C. S. Lewis, ‘The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment’, in ‘God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics’, by C. S. Lewis, edited by Walter Hooper.