Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In response to my recent post about whether we could feed more people if everyone were vegetarians (I say no), a poster named Marissa wrote a heartfelt paean to Veganism.
Figure 1. Perhaps the world’s best-known adherent of a strict Vegan diet.
Vegans are a kind of fundamentalist sect of born-again vegetarians who eat exclusively vegetables, no eggs, no fish, no milk, no cheese, no insects. Merissa’s post starts off as follows:
Ok, I don’t think I have read one comment from a true vegan on this thread. Well I am Vegan and let me share with you the benefits that I have experienced …
Merissa follows with a list of the things s/he has gotten from following a Vegan diet. This stirred me to write again about why people eat meat.
Merissa, I think that it is great that you have found a way of eating that works for you. The problem is not that some people find that vegetarianism or Veganism works for them. That’s a good thing. I say more power to you. You should eat exactly what feels best for your life and your body. I ate vegetarian for three years myself.
Now perhaps it’s something in the vegetables that causes the problem, I don’t know. But all too often, recent initiates into the mysteries of some branch of Vegetableism then feel compelled to tell me how much better the world would be if every single person ate, not what works for them, but what works for the Vegetableist in question. And this is all too often accompanied by the claim that we could feed more people if humans only ate vegetables.
For the host of reasons I listed in the previous post, people around the planet have found it advantageous to domesticate and keep (and eat) animals. Perhaps some random Vegan knows more about how to scratch out a living in a hostile world than do all of the billions of poor farmers and householders around the planet, maybe they’re all wrong to keep chickens and pigs and such, maybe we might be able to feed more people if we were all vegetarians … but I doubt it very much. The farmers and the poor around the planet aren’t that stupid.
It has occasionally been my good fortune to work and spend time with very poor people, the dollar a day people, the people at the very opposite end of the economic spectrum from me, or you, or anyone rich enough to own a computer or a pair of nice shoes. There’s a lot to learn at that end of the economy, including about people’s diets. To understand the position of meat in the global diet, you need to remember that most people don’t eat the same as you and me and the folks who own computers and nice shoes. Most people on the planet are already vegetarians most of the time … only not by choice. For most people, meat is a delicacy. It is not on the menu very often.
Once when I was working in Liberia, in West Africa, they were burning a local sugar cane field. The whole village came out with clubs. They surrounded the fire in a long line. When the fire chased the cane rats out of the burning cane, they clubbed the rats and took them home and ate them. I found out that cane rat fried up in slightly over-the-hill orange colored oil palm oil (no refrigeration) tastes pretty good, although for a couple days afterwards I belched more rancid palm oil fumes than an out-of-tune biodiesel Volkwagen …
And of course cane rat is considered a good thing, meat for the family.
Here’s the reason why cane rat is a delicacy, why kids lined up to get some of the meat. The villagers that eat that meat are stronger and healthier and more resistant to disease and quicker to heal and faster growing than the villagers who don’t eat that meat. Simple as that. The chance to eat meat doesn’t come up often. When that chance comes up, those people that eat the meat improve their chances of living compared to those who don’t eat meat.
Our bodies know that and have known it since forever. You could see it in the kids’ eyes, they could smell it, they wanted it, their bodies responded without conscious thought. Meat makes you stronger, it provides a host of vitamins and minerals, it is powerful food. Which is why people eat meat, in Africa and around the planet. It increases their odds of survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. So they ate cane rats.
Here’s another story from another time and place, with the same subject. One late afternoon, through a series of misunderstandings and coincidences, I found myself sitting in the welcome shade of some trees in a railroad yard in Mexico, waiting to hop a freight train. Two young boys came by, brothers the older one said, perhaps four and seven years old. Built on the usual blueprint of the poor, undersized and skinny. I struck up a conversation in Spanish with the seven year old. The younger boy never said a word. He just trailed a few feet behind his older brother, and watched everything with black shiny eyes.
The older boy had a slingshot made of a tree branch “Y” fork, with a dozen or more ordinary rubber bands of all sizes and colors attached to each fork of the “Y” and to the leather pouch.
I asked what they were doing. The boy said they came to the railroad lines because there were perfectly round stones for his slingshot in the railroad bed. He showed me how hard it was to pull his slingshot. Oh, I suppose you are the grán cazador, the mighty hunter, I jested.
Si, Señor, yo soy, he explained very soberly in Spanish, yes, Sir, I am.
My skepticism must have shown in my eyes. Mira, he said, watch.
He searched around, picked up and discarded a few stones, finally settling on exactly the right one. He put it in the pouch of the slingshot, and started walking around and gazing intently up into the tree branches above us. He stopped, pulled back and let fly.
There was a “poof” sound up in the tree, and a bird the size of a small robin, that I didn’t even know was in the tree, tumbled down at my feet. He and his tiny brother both jumped on it, and he twisted its neck in an economical, practised fashion.
With my mouth hanging open, I hastened to assure him that I was wrong to doubt his word. I said he was indeed a skilled hunter. I asked what he would do with the bird. Oh, para comer, señor, it’s for food, sir, he said. I said are you going to take it home to your mamá to cook it? Oh, no, Señor, somos siete, he said … oh no, Sir … there’s seven of us kids … I nodded my understanding.
He and his short confederate scurried off. They returned with some grass and twigs. He pulled out a tattered matchbook and lit a fire. In no time he had plucked that bird, gutted it, skewered it, and had it cooking over the fire. I watched in astonishment.
I walked to the corner where an old lady was frying tacos on a dished-top tin can stove. I bought a few potato tacos the size of silver dollars. She didn’t sell meat tacos, poor people don’t buy meat tacos. She made tacos with potatoes and tacos with beans. I brought them back, and gave most of them to the midget hunter and his mini-amigo. And God damn it, he wanted me to take half the bird, but I could see their eyes caressing it.
So I told them I could only eat a small bite on account of my liver. That being the common explanation there for any physical infirmity, the older boy nodded sagely. He agreed that a man has to take care of his liver, you can’t be too careful. He said his liver was fine, thanks, and they happily polished off that bird. I bought another round of potato tacos to celebrate, which had similarly short lifetimes.
And you know, as the two of them sat there content under the tree, sucking on the bird bones and watching the sun set, somehow I just didn’t have the heart to tell that small man and his smaller brother-in-arms just how much better off he and his little bitty buddy and the rest of the world would be if only they and everyone else became vegans …
My best to all,
w.
[UPDATE] Twelve years after I wrote this, science is finally catching up with what every kid on a cattle ranch knows … see “Going Vegan Isn’t the Most Sustainable Option for Humanity“.
Human history is full of cultures that ate little to no veggies. Eskimos for one. Laplanders for another. Neanderthal probably didn’t eat a lot of veggies either. Humans started eating meat when we discovered bone marrow. The lions and hyenas would finish, and after they had gnawed the last speck of meat from the bones, we would arrive, break the bones on (or with) a rock and eat the goodness that was inside.
The human brain began to expand at about the time we started catching and eating fish. If you want to return to a species with the mental capacity of what we had before we started eating meat, fine, but mark my words, in a few thousand years your clan will perish and be completely overpopulated by the meat eaters who will marry your daughters and convert them.
Some years ago there were howls of protest and shock when the UK naturalist showed film of chimps hunting monkeys, ripping them to pieces and eating them.
Then the footage appeared of pandas scoffing on a deer carcase.
UK medics and social workers even have a term, “muesli belt malnutrition” to describe the sickly children, growing up (or not) in households where strict veggie/vegan rules are applied, and the kids are suffering from malnutrition as a result.
The contents of a single egg are sufficient to produce a new born chick, all its bones skin, brains etc, milk is the sole source of food for mammals in early development, yet the ecofascists choose to ignore these hints from nature
Vegetarianism is said to be rooted in a concern for the welfare of animals and a feeling that it is wrong to eat them. But if vegetarianism took hold in a big way it would mean the end of many, many types of animal. Who would keep pigs, cows, sheep etc as pets? And what would you feed your cats and dogs? Do vegetarians and vegans have cats and dogs?
i guess evolution put eyes in front of our skull so we could hunt carrots?
vegetarians/vegans are so because they can afford it. just another snobby, progressive fashion aimed at wiping out billions of people.
i recommend penn and teller view on the issue.
M White says:
October 20, 2010 at 1:08 am
“Plants feel pain????”
That reminds me of the message that Paula McMasters, an old hiking friend from college, embroidered onto her hat:
“If you like plants, don’t eat them!”
I am not a herbivore.
Wasn’t Hitler the world’s best known vegan? ( Or was he some some variant of the quackery?)
I’m a ‘proper’ vegetarian – have been for almost 30 years. Thing is, I don’t give a stuff what people eat, whether they are veggie or not. I do what I want to do, and don’t care if others do the same. But I have found very curious reactions to me being veggie. Some of them border on the very odd! Read some of the above posts and you’ll see what I mean – ignorance really is bliss.
Eating food is all about being a total hypocrite. I’m a hypocrite because despite being a veggie because I can’t bear to eat something that was alive, I nonetheless eat milk products (knowing full well the suffering cows go through in the dairy industry). Vegans are hypocrites because they cannot exclude all animal products (because it is impossible – there are animal products in manufactured goods). Meat eaters (like the majority reading this) are hypocrites because they’ll eat a chicken, but can’t bear to eat anything fluffy, cute or domesticated. So you see, we’re all hypocrites. Just enjoy your life and don’t criticise other’s beliefs.
Tonyb, thanks for your tolerance of others who think and act differently to you.
You demonstrate a tolerance that has all too often gone missing amongst those who practice a different life style and are utterly convinced that everybody should follow or be forced into following their particular choice of life style , usually prefaced by “for the good of the Earth” or some such “xxxxxxx” !
Perhaps one day into the far future, this age will be classed by the historians of the future as The Age of the Cults.
Global Warming, Environmental,[ now one of the most corrupted, overused and misused words in the global lexicon.] Animal liberation, Vegan, Organic, Anti-nuclear, Species extinction, Ocean acidity, Sea level rise and dozens of others.
As with cults of every stripe through out human history, the Select and Blessed Ones will attempt to convert everybody to their way of thinking and if they can’t achieve that by peaceful means then the cults attempt to apply their beliefs through overt coercion and then finally if they can achieve enough influence and power, the use of force for a “final solution”.
The extremists of the Environmental / Global Warming Cult are now at the overt coercion stage judging from the attempts to paint skeptics as psychiatric cases and the making of 10; 10 snuff video plus the girl on the ice block with the noose around her neck.
Minds that come up with those scenarios are almost beyond evil.
The older generation amongst us saw this same psychology where humans of a particular race, creed or color or belief were no longer regarded as humans but were classed as subhumans and were therefore ripe for extinction.
I see the same totally warped psychology already making it’s presence felt today in the extremists of the so called environmental / global warming movement.
If a scenario such as that of the 1930’s in Europe rose again and it will, then we can already see now the psychology’s already present today amongst the extreme elements of the environmental and global warming cults will become willing dupes of any movement run by a charismatic leader where any empathy for others of a different belief system no longer exists and any action needed to eliminate those who do not “believe” is rationalised as “the end justifies the means”
The last time, it cost an estimated 100 million human lives.
“Do vegetarians and vegans have cats and dogs?”
Do they even nurse their young?
I know some pretty radical vegans and it has NOTHING to do with animals for them. They have what seems like a self-loathing. They think eating human meat (no kidding) is the “most vegan” thing you can do. They are basically anti-human and are projecting their anti-humanism.
I am talking about some pretty hard core San Francisco vegans here. I had a friend who is in a dance troupe. She was asked to perform at a vegan cafe/restaurant with her troupe. They discovered that she ate meat and asked that she not perform. They didn’t even want her IN the place. I am dead serious, too, and this woman is one of the top in the world in her style of dance.
I haven’t seen it yet, but there will be certainly a vegan mentioning their “scientific” caution “The China Study” from T.Colin Campbell. Here a link to a blog where a sole girl has rechecked the numbers and brillantly demonstrated that Campbell is full of it.
http://rawfoodsos.com/category/china-study/
She got than help from Chris Masterjohn a british researcher who has showed that Campbell misrepresented even his own research http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/the-curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does-protein-deficiency-prevent-cancer/
The responses from Campbell himself and all his sycophants reminds me alot of the responses from the warmists, full of personal attack, not much science.
If there’s one field were the science is even worse than in climate science, it’s nutrition “science”. Check it out, it’s terrible.
I am a proud omnivore and I believe my teeth were designed for this diet . When I no longer need to be effective at structural steel design I might consider becoming a vegetarian…no, wait, I would eat my own limbs before giving up the food source that put foot prints on the moon!
“I am a proud omnivore and I believe my teeth were designed for this diet . ”
Given a few thousand generations your teeth will adjust to just about anything. Just think, humans in zero G for a few thousand generations would lose all their bones and look like a jelly ball with a head and will be able to type with all four hands.
gallier2 says:
October 20, 2010 at 2:55 am
I haven’t seen it yet, but there will be certainly a vegan mentioning their “scientific” caution “The China Study” from T.Colin Campbell. Here a link to a blog where a sole girl has rechecked the numbers…..
Sort of validates what I said in my post above http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/20/vegans-are-not-from-vegas/#comment-511605
Andy
The thing I find laughable about one particular type of veggie/vegan etc. pihlosophy is the “ethical” one, where a vegetarian will hav a dim ethical view of omnivores.
But of course a vegan can and does look down on vegetarians from an “ethical” standpoint.
And of course “fruitarians” can and do look down upon vegans from an “ethical” standpoint.
I could hazard a guess that “Breatharians” (look it up) might look down upon fruitarians from an ethical standpoint.
And it is all done with a straight face.
The Ghost said:
…knowing full well the suffering cows go through in the dairy industry…
And my reaction was, “Huh? Whom are you kidding?” Maybe things are different on your part of the planet, but suffering cows aren’t very productive. I’ve never seen a dairy cow that didn’t lead a pampered life. Rather, it’s the dairymen who get the short end of the stick – and it used to be a lot worse than it is now.
@ur momisugly The Ghost Of Big Jim Cooley
I must respond.
I am no hypocrite. I will eat anything, including the cute and fluffy (as long as it is legal of course). I might psychologically recoil from some things, but I will not refuse anything on principle, only on taste.
Enjoy!!
Animals spend up to 20 hours per day eating because it takes a lot of vegetation to make body mass.
In other words animals concentrate nutrition, therefore provides more nutrition, weight for weight than vegetation. This means meat eaters can eat less quantity and spend less time eating.
Not only this, a single type of meat can provide nearly all the nutritional requirements, whereas a much large variety and quantity of vegetation is required for the same benefit.
Meat eating is more efficient allowing more time for other things, requiring less land, less transportation, less storage and less preparation.
The vegetarian environmental argument falls down when considering that grazing animals will feed more people than would the vegetation they consume, because they are adapted to extract more nourishment than Humans from vegetation much of which would be unpalatable and indigestible for Humans anyway.
Also Ghost
You strike me as a typical know nothing urbanite. Go to a dairy farm one day and watch the cows willingly and automatically queue for their daily milking. It is repetitive and boring being a milker no doubt, but they are cows for crying out loud and grazing, wandering and some teat sucking once a day is bovine heaven.
I’ve eaten “Meat Only” for a few months (as a friend was on a protein only diet and wanted company…) It wasn’t too bad after the first week or so (when benign dietary ketosis sets in) but I like omnivore much better.
Now most of my family has been infected with the Vegetarian Meme, so we eat vegetarian for pretty much all meals (ovo lacto). Except me. About 3 times a week I find a chunk of meat.
As the months have gone by, I find the desire for / need for some meat increasing. And it’s not due to some failure to make a decent veggy meal. I’ve done the reading needed to keep things right (and protein is NOT the hard part. It’s the fatty acids, especially the Essential Fatty Acids, the vitamins, especially B complex and B12, the things we don’t normally think about…) Generally I’m at the point where a well balanced meal of legumes, grains, leaves, and roots leaves me quite happy.
But the overall effect is not that far different from the “all meat” diet. I can live on it fine and cope with the ‘issues’; but it IS coping.
Oh, and reading “Transition to Vegetarianism” gives a step by step guide to how to adapt as each food type is dropped out. The closer to Vegan you get, the harder it is to not accidentally kill or cripple yourself. We are not naturally vegans. We are only facultative vegetarians. That is made abundantly clear by the detailed food knowledge needed to be a vegetarian (and the fairly large supplements needed if you are not careful). All issues you can simply ignore if you eat some fried chicken…
OK, with all that said, I don’t care what someone chooses to eat. I’ve eaten anything that moved and most things that don’t 😉 and I’ve pretty much shown humans are very adaptable omnivores.
But the idea you are doing farm animals a favor by being a vegetarian is simply a lie. You are condemning them to extinction. Some thousands of years ago we struck a deal. We provide them a relatively cushy life (as compared to in the wild) with loads of easy food. In exchange, we eat them (often after a longer life than they would have had in the wild). By this time, the farm animals are no longer able to survive in the wild. We’ve become co-dependent. So if we ‘go vegan’, they ‘go extinct’, and I’m pretty sure they would not be keen on that. (And yes, I’ve been on a lot of farms and seen a lot of animals. Most of them were “ok” with the deal.)
Also the notion that a vegan life means more food for all is broken. As others have said, ruminants and chickens eat stuff we can’t. Maximum food production comes on a mixed meat / plants farm. For the incredibly rich west it means more, as we feed our animals grains. For most of the world it does not. We can’t eat the leaves and twigs that goats eat, for example.
Oh, and I’ve also noticed the pattern of extreme vegetarian types to be sickly and have ‘failure to thrive’… At present I’m ‘enjoying’ a weak case of that as I’m losing a few pounds of pudge. The problem will show up in about a year when I’ve run out of pudge…
Also, an interesting point: For a couple of years running I’ve been to a pot luck at a farmshare operation. Largely vegetarian. Each year they always run out of food before everyone is full. Not horridly out, but clearly some folks still looking for a bit of something interesting at highly picked over tables. For a similar couple of years we’ve had 4 th of July pot luck block parties with a BBQ. Always about 2 to 3 times the food needed with loads of leftovers.
What to make of it? Well, the vegetarians eat a much larger volume of lower food value food, for one thing. But they also bring lesser sized dishes to the party. I find that an odd thing…
At any rate, IMHO, westerners could do with a couple of vegetarian days a week and the rest of the world could do with a couple of Double Burgers a week… and everybody could do with not telling each other how to live… or eat.
John A says:
October 20, 2010 at 2:17 am
I guarantee you that given the choice between eating meat and starvation, there will be no vegans.
I suppose that adds a twist to the concept of a Vegan Diet 🙂 especially if you can get the Vegans to eat acorns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam%C3%B3n_ib%C3%A9rico
LOL!
Good article Willis as usual, but I think you’ll have a hard job convincing Hindus and Buhhdists out of eat veggies. Still each to their own, as has been said, humans are omnivoures.
One of my fondest friends is Hindu and at a BBQ many many years ago, she cooked chicken, which was wrapped in foil, on a BBQ she wearing rubber gloves and using metal tongs to handle the meat. LOL
Some time ago I operated a training center that hosted athletes from all over the U.S. and the world. Not a few of them were vegetarians and among them a few vegans.
There was a constant debate about the suitability for athletics, but this was never resolved. I can say that the vegans were a regular pain in the butt for our food service folks though. The vegans were also the ones who chose to train early (up with the birds?) and regularly fired up their juice machines at 4:00 AM. It was like having a jet engine in your kitchen.
I admit I had lost all control, but I was at least able to establish one ground rule when new arrivals came: “Don’t eat the bushes close to the house.”
The forty day fast in the eastern orthodox church when followed strictly is the precursor of veganism: no meat, no fish, no milk, no eggs, and even utensils that have been used with the above have to be thoroughly cleaned in case some animal fats remain in the cooking. The last week also no olive oil. On the fortieth day the celebration of the resurrection, or the assumption of the virgin ( august 15) or Christmas ended with huge meat feasts, the fast broken with a soup from the lambs.
Veganism misses an objective, fasts were for the purification of the soul for the religious rituals, and is continuous. Monks and nuns fast continuously, sometimes having only bread and water, so in a sense vegans are modern monks without the vocation.