This rebuttal comment to I’ll Trade You Cuccinelli For Splattergate With A Player To Be Named Later was so well written, and so extensive, I felt that it deserves the honor of a guest post status.
– Anthony
Guest Post by Thomas Fuller
But it didn’t rise to a criminal level (that was the UK deleting emails in advance of Freedom of Information requests, not Michael Mann). What Ken Cuccinelli is doing is going fishing for wrongdoing without an allegation of such wrongdoing–and that’s not how we should be doing things in this country.
I’ll get a lot of flack from you on this–and don’t be shy, I can take it. But remember as you write–District Attorneys are not always Republican, and controversial scientists can be skeptics at times, too. Don’t let your desire for a short term victory in the daily news cycle let you ignore what would be an erosion of all our civil liberties, I beg of you.
Let’s begin by examining the validity of your statement, “But it didn’t rise to a criminal level (that was the UK deleting emails in advance of Freedom of Information requests, not Michael Mann). What Ken Cuccinelli is doing is going fishing for wrongdoing without an allegation of such wrongdoing–and that’s not how we should be doing things in this country.” On the contrary, there are outstanding allegations of wrongdoing.
Michael Mann and the University of Virginia refused to comply with the law and a citizen’s lawful FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request for e-mail held by the University, claiming the e-mail no longer existed. When Virginia Attorney General Cuccinelli served a subpoena on the University to deliver the e-mail, the supposedly deleted and non-existent e-mail was recovered from the University computer servers. Consequently, it appears there is every reason to suspect a crime was committed when the citizen’s FOIA request was denied on the basis of a fraudulent claim of destruction of the e-mail. Unlike the case with the University of East Anglia, the statute of Limiitations is likely to remain in force in the Virginia case. It remains to be determined whether or not the evidentiary discovery will support misdemeanor and/or felony charges. That is the purpose and due process of law for which the CID is needed and proper.
Then there is the issue of the $466,000 (nearly a half million dollars) in grant monies Michael Mann solicited and received from the State of Virginia and its taxpayers, in addition to the huge sums of money he and the University of Virginia received from the U.S. Government. It has been argued by a group of scientists and others that Michael Mann and the University of Virginia should somehow be uniquely immune from a Civil Investigative Demand (CID) in a prima facie FOIA and/or fraud criminal case on the basis of some unwritten gentleman’s agreement to avoid interference with the intellectual freedom of scientists. Thusly, these same people see no cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, or injustice when they punished, sanctioned, threatened, intimidated, and/or defrauded non-scientists and dissenting scientists by dismissing state climatologists, dissenting climate scientists, dissenting meteorologists, academics, students, political appointees, and others without any Civil Investigative Demand, administrative board hearing, arraignment and trial, or other due process of law thay are now claiming for Michael Mann and the University of Virginia without any statutory or constitutional right.
Rubbing salt into the wounds of the public they have wronged for many years, they are trying to carve out a privileged position of immunity for themselves just as the Members of Congress have done so before them. Discriminating against other classes of citizens, these so-called scientists want to enjoy an immunity from investigation and prosecution not enjoyed by other citizens in our society. Expressing outrage that anyone would seek to interfere with the privacy of their communications and right to publish their communications while remaining immune from due process of law, members of their class of citizens have been running rampant in innumerable criminal cases of defrauding governments, businesses, private citizens, and causing the deaths of private citizens.
For one example, Dr. Scott Reuben pled guilty to numerous charges of fraud in which he faked numerous medical studies published in medical journals as peer reviewed research for such companies as Pfizer. Despite the peer reviews, Dr. Reuben didn’t even have any patients enrolled in his faked patient studies. Physicians relied upon these faked perr reviewed papers to provide medical care to their patients. It was subsequently determined that Dr. Scott Reuben had been faking a number of medical studies for some thirteen years without being discovered and prosecuted.
Somewhere there is someone reading the forgoing and saying Dr. Reuben is just an isolated case, and his fraud is not representative of any widespread scientific fraud. Unfortunately, they are just plain wrong and ignorant of the facts.
Take for another example, the problem with widespread fraud due to ghostwritten peer reviewed science papers. Acta Crystallographica Section E was compelled to retract more than 70 peer reviewed papers ghostwritten by Chinese scientists as faked or fraudulent studies. Pharmaceutical companies have a reputation for ghostwriting peer reviewed studies in-house and then paying medical doctors and scientists to permit their name to b used for publication of the studies. This fraudulent practice has been reported to be widespread in the pharmaceutical industry and some academia for many years as an outgrowth of the academic practice of using graduate students to perform service for their superiors holding doctorates. The University of Alabama at Birmingham has been yet another academic institution which had to retract a number of fraudulent peer reviewed papers and remove eleven proteins registered in a database of such proteins used in science.
The fallout from the notoriously fraudulent stem cell research of Hwang Woo-suk and the investigation of his associate, Professor Gerald P. Schatten of University of Pittsburgh have been ongoing.
Closer to NASA there is the case of Samim Anghaie, his wife, and their business, NETECH, which fraudulently obtained 2.5 million dollars in contracts from NASA among the 13 U.S. government contracts totalling 3.4 million dollars.
Within climate science there has been a number of incidents of suspected fraud, one of which was reported by Dr. S. Fred Singer described the allegations of either fabrication of Chinese weather station data or plagiarism by Wei-Chyung Wang, University of Albany, from work by his colleague in China, Zhaomei Zeng.
Suffice it to observe, scientific fraud is not at all uncommon, and some commentators describe scientific fraud as being rampant. Looking at the known incidents of scientific fraud, it can be seen the perpetration of such fraud is highly rewarding with grants and contracts amounting in various examples as $70,000, $466,000, and $3,400,000. Whistleblowers are typically punished for their honesty, resulting in great reluctance to disclose such scientific fraud or enthusiastic cooperation with such fraud.
In your statement, “But remember as you write–District Attorneys are not always Republican, and controversial scientists can be skeptics at times, too,” you indulge in a fallacy seemingly common to many so-called Liberal-Left Democrats. You see opponents as necessarily being some kind of badly fundamental religious Right-wing extremist or at least some misguided minority Right-wing-nut Republican. Well, such ideas are extremist fantasies. There ae a great many people who describe themselves, as Republicans, yes, but also Democrats, Libertarians, independents, and others who insist upon honesty, integrity, and impartiality. A great many of these people cheerfully wish a pox on all politicians, activists, and Lamestream journalists who seek to frustrate the ability of ordinary citizens to govern their own lives free of interference by by people who think they know better what is best for other people besides themselves and seek to make themselves immune from the same rules and burdens they would impose on others. Whether it is the special immunities and privileges the MainStream Media (MSM) seek to deny ordinary citizen journalists or the climate data and information climate scientists attempt to deny ordinary citizen observers of climate science, you don’t have to be a Republican, a political conservative, or a right-wing-nut, to join with our political opponents in demanding non-discriminatory application of the due process of law to scientists the same as other citizens and professions.
At the very least, the University of Virginia and/or Michael Mann appear to be liable to investigation and prosecution for the violation of laws relating to the FOIA release of the e-mail evidencing Michael Mann’s involvement in the handling of $466,000 of state grant funds. There is more than ample evidence that scientific fraud is a common enough crime to warrant investigations, and convincing evidence of at least some violations of law with respect to FOIA disclosures. Scientists are not yet privileged with the immunity needed to commit FOIA violations and scientific fraud with complete immunity from investigation and prosecution. let the Attorney General represent the citizens of Virginia and safeguard their taxpayer monies and their right to the freedom of information guaranteed by written laws.
WOW, if I wanted to form another good “whitewashing committee” for the AGW hoax, I would certainly try to get a couple of the prominent commenters here on that Committee. LOL.
One primary job of an AGW is to investigate possible abuses of the taxpayers assets. It’s really that simple, folks. The AG is doing his job. Period.
Of course, I mean’t “One primary job of an AG (not AGW)….”
Steven Mosher says: October 7, 2010 at 2:47 am
“Sorry I have to agree with Tom. …I can say there is no case of fraud. Mann’s methods are certainly aggressive… I think we need to hold a very high bar for the charge of fraud.”
Thank you Steven Mosher. The charge of fraud is a very strong accusation and the onus of proof very demanding. Mistakes are not fraud. Misunderstandings are not fraud. I defend any scientist’s right to publish free of political or legal interference. If Mann’s scientific work is deficient it will be shown as such without need of any witch hunt.
My only beef with Steven’s comment is the “sorry” at the front. Freedom to express the truth as each individual understands it is a hallmark of the United States of America and no apology needs mention in its defence.
Ammonite
Mark Oliver
Thank you for your kind words, Tom. We do agree to greater and lesser degrees on some issues, including the risks associated with having Attorneys General using their political office inappropriately in scientific disputes. Our disagreements appear to center on many of the intitial views of the facts. I’m especially concerned with what I see as one-sided applications of these concerns. In response to your objections, the objections of other commenters, and some questions, I’ll compile some information and details which people on both sides of the debate may find at least provocative, if not informative.
Special thanks to Anthony et al for the use of this forum, without which Tom and I could not discuss this issue without undue censorship.
Tom Fuller, from the/his previous post:
The ‘system’ of science has dealt with other frauds, incorrect research findings and fad-inspired papers many times in the past. It can do so again with Michael Mann.
Yet your own book was based upon leaked “work” materials. So, no, the “system of science” apparently needs some help? And, once again, why shouldn’t Cuccenelli have what he needs in order to do his job?
Roger Clague says:
October 7, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Mann’s grant money is spent. Intellectual and sometimes actual fraud in climate science is normal. Why support a lawyer wasting more of your money and who has his own agenda.
Yeah, after all, why even vote?
These legal wranglings are just the beginning. As the AGW scandal unfolds the legal fights over stock manipulation, wire fraud, and misrepresentation outside of academia and Government are going to make this look like a tempest in a teacup.
Steven Mosher;
The people making vague, unspecified, charges on Mann do an absolute disservice to the people who have studied him in detail. If you dont know the case on the science inside and out, I’ll suggest silence. if people took that suggestion then there are probably less than handful of people qualified to speak. And none of them sees fraud. Mistakes are not fraud.>>
While I agree on many of the points you raised in this thread, your summation above is dead wrong. Mistakes are not fraud if they are honest mistakes. If they are deliberate errors to achieve a goal, they are fraud. If they were honest mistakes that the researcher later became aware were mistakes, and continued research based them anyway, the later work is fraudulent.
More troubling however is your contention that there are only a handful of people qualified to speak on the science, and none of them sees fraud. That sounds like a message I’ve heard only too much of from the AGW crowd, the ‘only we understand the science so you geneticaly deficient, poorly educated peasants should be quiet and accept our opinion’.
The fact is I don’t need to be an expert in biology to idenitfy the odor of rot. I’ve read some of Mann’s excuses for not releasing data and code in regard to transportability to other computer systems, and they were ridiculous to anyone with expertise in high performance computing for research. That’s my turf now, having been selling HPC to researchers, academic and private alike, for 20+ years, and the answers have a reek of advanced biological degradation of food stuffs. I read the whitewash investigations into his conduct, and noted the meticulous cared that was taken to build a process that would avoid investigation of any of the tough questions, and focus in detail on inconsequential matters, prompting one of the witnesses called (Lindzen I think?) to ask ‘what’s going on here?’ I am not a statistiscian like M&M, so I am, in fact, not qualified to judge the science. But on those peripheral issues where I can judge…something reeks.
If the AG is competent, then he is proceeding based on the knowledge he has and is investigating accordingly. If he is incompetent, then he may well do more harm than good. But since I don’t know what knowledge he is proceeding on, nor his level of competence, I can’t judge. But something reeks and if this AG thinks he can discover what it is, then hat tip to him. If nothing else, it serves notice to all researchers that their records and communication are open to scrutiny, and any “known mistakes” had better be dealt with pronto. Some will bury them and some will recant. I don’t know that raising awareness of the potential fall out of twisting results to achieve an agenda, even through a failed investigation, is a bad thing. The next investigation could well turn over a spadefull of rot.
davidmhoffer says:
October 8, 2010 at 2:35 am
“I’ve read some of Mann’s excuses for not releasing data and code in regard to transportability to other computer systems, and they were ridiculous to anyone ”
David:
Back in the 1990s it was rather uncommon for scientists to supply raw data and code along with publications. However, I have read Mann’s 2008 publication in Nature and I’ve looked at the massive amount of supplemental materials that are available to anyone who wants to look on line. The idea that Mann was not releasing code is true for the papers published over a decade ago, but not for the more recent work.
BillD says:
“The idea that Mann was not releasing code is true for the papers published over a decade ago, but not for the more recent work.”
Michael Mann still refuses to release his data and methods twelve years after MBH98/99, for one simple reason: if he did, they – and his debunked conclusions – would be instantly falsified, and he would be exposed as the scientific charlatan that McIntyre & McKitrick showed him to be.
Now that Mann is releasing more of his methodologies and data… Abracadabra and *Presto Change-0!*… the MWP and LIA magically re-appear.
He is quite the scoundrel, isn’t he?
@davidmhoffer
“But since I don’t know what knowledge he is proceeding on, nor his level of competence, I can’t judge.”
Well you could read his latest submission since it was supposed to include his best reasons for wanting the requested data. I’m seeing people continually assert the existence of some secret “Gotcha!” information which will win the day. This reduces my confidence in the case rather than increase it.
” If nothing else, it serves notice to all researchers that their records and communication are open to scrutiny, and any “known mistakes” had better be dealt with pronto.”
I rather think Tom Fuller’s point is the chilling effect upon scientific work if any scientist at any time can be subjected to criminal fraud investigation on the basis of an Attorney General thinking their research could be “done better” (i.e. could instead have reached conclusions more consistent with their political platform).
There is no piece of scientific work which couldn’t have been “done better” in someone‘s opinion particularly years after the fact. The normal process is for that person to publish their own work not to rifling through their emails to see if there’s anything interesting in there.
Mann has not released his data for 1998?
ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/paleocean/by_contributor/mann1998/
Is the claim he hasnt a mistake, a misrepresentation, or a fraud, or a partial falsehood?
Cliff says:
October 7, 2010 at 6:39 am
Rockyroad,
(…..)
I almost think you guys are afraid of the science – if you want to focus so much on criminalizing those that take views opposed to yours.
———-Reply:
I don’t have time to repeat what about 90% of the posters have said on this site, particularly on this thread. I’ll let you re-read them to your heart’s content.
See, I’m a geologist myself (I’m embarassed to say Mann supposedly is a geolgist, too); I’m also an engineer that has had a fair amount of legal dealings with the work I’ve done in developing precious metals deposits.
But that said, you bring up an excellent point–“afraid of the science”. I’m not afraid of the science–MANN IS!
Michael Mann has NOT been open about his data, methodologies, calculations, etc. etc. He’s not a scientist in my estimation. So before you go throwing dispersions against anybody here, first look to Mann; he’s the culprit.
By the way, have you read the emails from Climategate? Particularly, have you read the “Harry Read Me” file? I’m currently working 2 full-time jobs as a computer systems engineer (a properly execute life is simply one large system) and the contents of that file says just one thing to me:
LET US SEE IT ALL! OPEN UP EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON ABOUT CLIMATE RESEARCH.
David Mhoffer.
Mann’s bogus reasons for ‘refusing’ to release code and data have NO BEARING on the factual matter of whether he committed scientific fraud.
I tell you this. I have an algorithm in my possession which calculates a square root. I will not share the code with you, and will not show you my test data.
How is that a fraud? you may decide not to believe my answers if I fail to provide this, But you have no reason, no reason based in fact, to speculate that my answers are deliberately misleading or fraudulant.
finally:
1. i did not say there were only a few qualified to speak on the SCIENCE. I said there are only a few who know the facts of this case. the data sets, the code that was actually released. the code that was held back.
2. That you dont like the smell, is hardly justification for the AG to take the action he did. What I am saying is THIS. the AG needed to do some DUE DILIGENCE. That would include contacting the ‘expert” on mann. Steve Mc. He should have asked steve for the best case steve could make. He didnt. He’s going on a fishing expedition. AND HE DIDNT EVEN ASK THE BEST FISHING GUIDE WHERE THE FISH ARE. incompetent dolt. Stupid case by a man concerned with making headlines rather than good cases. Stupid. if you are going to going on a fishing expedition, the least you can do look in the right places for the right things. for that, you better call in the guy who knows the ins and out of mann’s mischivey
Once again, when I ask for specifics on the fraud case nobody can step up and cite chapter and verse. and when they try, the switch to topic ( he held back data) and even THERE they get the facts wrong. people dont even know which data mann held back and which he released and the importance of it and what it pertains to.
Rocky.
The harry readme file?
ya. I read that. probably the first day the files plopped in my lap. not important. But you would have to know a few things to see why its not important.
Oh, really, Steve Mosher. And how do you know? Do you have all of Cucinelli’s files? Are you sitting in the meetings where ANY of this is discussed? Have you bugged Cucinelli’s office?
I would venture to say you do not; that you have not.
So you look pretty silly thinking you can fully ascertain (or even partially ascertain) what the AG has in the way of content to pursue his case at this point or what he knows or doesn’t know .
So call names all you like, but I say let’s see where this all goes. As far as I’m concerned, the AG has broken no laws in his pursuit of Mann and or the UVa. And I’m sad to see you so suspicious and denigrating of the legal process that you’d resort to name calling. It serves no beneficial purpose.
Steven Mosher says:
October 8, 2010 at 5:24 am
Rocky.
The harry readme file?
ya. I read that. probably the first day the files plopped in my lap. not important. But you would have to know a few things to see why its not important.
————Reply
Oh, please enlighten me–what is it not important? Does it not raise serious questions about methodology? Or is this just the common way science is pursued and data is manipulated?
I surely hope not!
WOW, if I wanted to form another good “whitewashing committee” for the AGW hoax, I would certainly try to get a couple of the prominent commenters here on that Committee. LOL.
One primary job of an AGW is to investigate possible abuses of the taxpayers assets. It’s really that simple, folks. The AG is doing his job. Period.
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really? “doing his job”
The idiot did not even contact Mcintyre to get a data dump on what the hottest leads were. I sure hope the next time he has a real case that people dont remember him as the boy who cried wolf.
The power to investigate, the power to supena, the power to bring charges requires discretion. The AG has no discretion. OF COURSE he can do what he has done. OF COURSE its his job to do what he has done.
my point and toms point is this. exercising that power requires discretion. It also requires brains. you don’t win an argument with me by arguing that the AG is just doing his job, when MY ARGUMENT is this:
1. he’s doing his job STUPIDLY
sheesh.
Steve Mosher:
Maybe, just may, Cucinelli or one on his staff will read your comments and expand his scope of inquiry. Or you could write a letter to him indicating problems he may not have considered. Either way, I say “thank you”.
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Dave Springer says:
October 7, 2010 at 3:06 pm (Edit)
@Steve Mosher
“If you dont know the case on the science inside and out, I’ll suggest silence. if people took that suggestion then there are probably less than handful of people qualified to speak.”
Would you, in your own esteemed opinion, be one of the qualified few?
#########################
On Mann? On the specific topic of what EXACT areas would be the best places to make a case? No. I would defer to SteveMc, and perhaps jeanS and UC.
When I speak about people qualified to speak I mean this. If you want to charge Mann with fraud, you had better talk to somebody who has
1. read manns papers
2. read his code
3. used his data
4. emulated his code
5. read all the emails
6. understands the math
7. understands the science.
MANY understand the science and the math. FEW understand all the details.
question, which proxy did mann misplace?
do you know? without googling? if not, go read all of CA.
Rocky, they can read CA. takes a few days to read the entire blog in its entirety.
In this stream of comments there is the argument that the scientists should sort out potential cases of fraud within the scientific process /community. It is implied that would not be a witch hunt, whatever witch hunt means. OK, fine and I can accept that. However, the problem is the argument in this stream extends beyond that. It goes on to say investigative actions by a legal body (Va AG Cuccinelli for example) should not occur because it is not qualified to judge the scientific process. I do not accept that. Add to the mix that public money is involved then it re-enforces the focus.
Also, what if during the idealistic case of science itself sorting out of fraud in the scientific process /community (without a meddlesome body of law involved) the scientists see fraud . . . . what do they do? Do they rationalize that it is a mistake and don’t care if it is an intentional mistake? They, as rational thinkers, immediately call the local law enforcement . . . . right? No cover up inside the honored halls of rational thought . . . . right?
Do we know in this stream of comments that science hasn’t been involved in Cuccinelli’s investigation? Do we know, as Steven Mosher implies, that Cuccinelli’s office hasn’t contacted McIntyre and (in Mosher’s words) the “less than handful of people qualified to speak”? Is that conjecture on Mosher’s part?
Finally, if I was the AG pursuing an investigation I wouldn’t show my whole hand until a lawsuit is filed. I wager that a lawsuit will eventually be filed no matter what the court decisions on any CIDs.
John
Hey, Moshe; is the Kiwi Kase a dark horse or a stalking horse?
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Not Spain in Maine,
But rain on Kilimanjaro not.
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