First, let me say I’m a fan of solar power when done correctly and without financial carrots hung out for electricity generation that entice abuse of the system. I put solar on my own home.
Bishop Hill points out that some solar power installations in Spain were producing power at night.
He writes of what was thought to be a joke:
…The prices paid for green energy were so high that it appeared to be profitable to generate that energy by shining conventionally fuelled arclights on the solar panels.
But finds truth to be stranger than fiction:
Although the exact details are slightly different there is now an intriguing report of the scam in practice. The text is based on a machine translation of the original German text:
After press reports, it was established during inspections that several solar power plants were generating current and feeding it into the net at night. To simulate a larger installation capacity, the operators connected diesel generators.
“This is just the tip of the iceberg,” said one industry expert to the newspaper “El Mundo”, which brought the scandal to light. If solar systems apparently produce current in the dark, will be noticed sooner or later. However, if electricity generators were connected during daytime, the swindle would hardly be noticed.
As I said last time around, this is the insanity of greenery.
Here is the Google Translation of the article.
You too can generate energy with your solar system at night, all you need is an 850 million candlepower WWII era searchlight, now available for rent.
Hey, it’s not crazy. There are so many fees, taxes, add ons, etc to power bills here in California now it is actually cheaper to generate your own electricity running a diesel generator than it is to buy it from PG&E. Anyone have a used diesel-electric locomotive I can buy?
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I happen to be an electrician, since March 1983. In all this time, I have spent at least 11 years working on schools, new and remodel. Anyway, most any school these days has an emergency generator (diesel) with enough fuel to run for 3 full hours. So, you might research a new school and find the design firm and see what generator they spec’d and find out what company they ordered from and see what you can afford. Also, there is a brand of portable, towable generators by Rand that you could rent or arrange to by. If you have acreage, you can do what escavation companies do and have an above ground, gravity-drain refillable tank and have your fuel delivered directly.
A friend of mine has a gas generator that he hooked up to his house, including a transfer switch for when the power is interrupted from his normal service provider.
Long live John Galt.
rbateman (20:58:26)
“Pump water up hill using solar or other non-fossil fuels in the day, release it during the night to regenerate the power and release it to the grid.”
The Taum Sauk reservoir uses off-peak nuclear power to pump water to the reservoir, then generates power during peak periods. This must be economic, because they are now rebuilding the reservoir after it collapsed after many errors that should not have happened.
e.g. wrong material for the reservoir walls, no spillway, faulty level-monitoring devices, ignoring prior faults, ignoring a whistleblower. Perhaps Taum Sauk will be done right this time.
Just don’t have anyone living under a reservoir for 20 miles. That gives them time to run up a hill!
Re: “If you have any doubts about what you are observing, turbines that are motoring will be rotating backwards.”
This statement is absolutely untrue. Neither induction nor synchronous generators “reverse direction” when shifted from generating to motoring. Power utilities routinely motor certain of their hydroelectric generators in what they call “condensing mode” by depressing the tail water, cutting off motive power and letting the machines “motor”. When additional power is needed, they simply open the wicket gates (throttle) and additional power generation is instantly provided. In all cases, the machine rotates in the same direction, whether motoring or generating.
Anthony – this might be an explanation for Spain generating solar power at night:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/largest-solar-thermal-storage-plant-to-start-up
REPLY: It’s new, just coming online and not what was found last fall according to the article. -A
Hydroelectric pumped storage is the the only efficient bulk electric power storage mechanism ever devised and commercially demonstrated by man. It is typically between 75% and 80% efficient, returning to the grid 0.75 to 0.8 kWh for every 1.0 kWh withdrawn from the grid. Since the difference in price between “peak” demand power and “off-peak” power is much greater than the ratio of input/output of pumped storage, pumped storage is an economic money machine. It allows very efficient “base load” machines such as nuclear, that would otherwise have to be throttled back at night, to continue at full throttle with the excess power diverted to drive the pumping operation. During the daily demand peak, instead of firing up relatively inefficient combustion turbines, the shortage between base generation and peak demand is made up by bringing the stored water down through the reversible pumped storage turbines running in their “generate mode”.
Why do we in the U.S. not have more of these economically efficient marvels? Try getting permits for ANY hydroelectric project in the U.S. today! As T. Boone Pickens discovered the hard way in the Texas panhandle, you can’t get past the environmental intervenors for a big wind farm, much less a hydroelectric project.
Jim,
That was my poor wording not Dirk’s. Micro-generation, onsite generation… pick one.
Was there a disagreement – I’m not sure I caught your point?
Neocons know how to exploit well-meaning green schemes.
On the question of energy in versus energy out, That is solar cell manufacture versus productivity : ‘Energy output is 9 to 17 times energy input’ . Point two, nobody knows how long solar panels will last, they could last for a hundred years or more.
http://www.solarbus.org/documents/pvpayback.pdf
linked from http://www.ecogeek.org/component/content/article/794
Looking at news reports on solar panel degradation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8386460.stm
Although it is not clear from this BBC article how the ’30 years’ was arrived at , and it is not clearly shown what the degradation curve looks like.
Current warranties give 20 years at 80% original capacity. Degradation is higher in space due to the higher levels of radiation, so this cannot be used for terrestial calculations.
Vargs
“I’m baffled why they don’t use the power generated to manufacture hydrogen for fuel cells on site.”
Hydrogen is a hoax, Ballard Power Systems who research and develop fuel cells, even said they can never work. Hydrogen is not a fuel, it has to be produced, by far the cheapest way is with fossil fuels. It doesn’t liquefy easy like propane, so it requires expensive equipment and a lot of wasted energy to compress it. It’s the lightest element so it leaks out of everything and it doesn’t have much power so you need lots of it to do anything. This is why fuel cells are essential to try to get a better return for your effort.
Batteries are much cheaper they give you a better return, and have gotten much better over the years.
OK, the language is German, yet it’s been released in Switzerland. You won’t hardly find a sillable about this scandal in the heavily biased German press.
EU and Germany are terminal green, will drop carbon tax on us pretty soon and the industry controlled law-making EU commissioners are deep in Desertecs pockets.
(from germany)
” Dennis Nikols (22:20:50) :
After living through Enron why am I not in the least bit surprised. Greed and self-interest have no morals, never have, probably never will.”
Another way to look at it, Dennis, is that both Enron and Greenscams have a common source: efforts of the government to repeal the laws of economics and physics with subsidies and regulations. The “unintended consequences” in each case are actually people doing the monetary/financial equivalent of water running downhill by the shortest available route.
“First, let me say I’m a fan of solar power when done correctly and without financial carrots hung out for electricity generation that entice abuse of the system. I put solar on my own home.”
And yet in that article (@link in the intro) you detail all manner of rebates etc. involved. Those rebates are economic distortions, and fundamentally have only one justification: minimizing CO2 emissions. Which is a false and illusory benefit.
In overall terms (taxes + installation + use) we are paying more — much more — for solar energy than for grid energy. But on an individual basis, you are “externalizing” many of those costs to the whole taxpayer base. In the extreme, if everyone did the same thing, it would become obvious that the total costs were much higher. It’s only by being one of the privileged few who can game the system that it makes sense.
Peter (05:14:09) :
Hydrogen is a hoax
I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I agree with everything else you said. People need to stop thinking about hydrogen as a fuel, and start thinking about it as a battery… a really, REALLY, expensive gas battery that still sources its power from fossil fuels.
A lot of people don’t realize that the only remotely economical way to produce hydrogen is with fossil fuels. Splitting water to produce hydrogen by other means is extremely inefficient. Not to mention the storage challenges. Batteries are still better.
I put solar on my own home.
I do my part too. We have a solar powered bathroom scale. We have to turn on extra lights in the bathroom to get it to work, but it’s the thought that counts.
You have no idea how perverse this system is…in France, if you produce electricity, EDF has to buy it at a preferential price far higher than the price of electricity they supply.
They are obliged!
Many people simply buy some land close to a tiny river, put a generator there…and it brings them an additional salary everyone else is paying for it in their bill. And if they simply take current from the plug of the next neighbor, and say it came from the generator…they can sell EDF their own current for higher price they bought it.
I bought a 1 kw inverter for $70 at COSTCO. I have a Diesel car. In an emergency (and if my gas generator runs out of gas…) I can turn my car into a very easy 1 kw power supply (and with an 18 gal tank built in…).
HONDA made (makes?) a very nice 12 kw Diesel generator. Figured the cost based on fuel burn specs for it once. Oddly, the was very close to “Fuel in $/gal divided by 10 per kW/hr”. So if Diesel is $3.00 / gal it was 30 Cents / kW-hr.
If you want to bypass the whole controlled economy thing, get a Diesel generator designed to run directly on plant oils. These are commonly available from India (often based on a very old Lister design). If used as a home heating source too you get nearly 100% fuel efficiency. (exactly how near depends a lot on just what all you run through heat exchangers and if you go so far as to run a heat pump… having a pool to heat in non-winter seasons helps 😉
A link based on a semi-random but well thought out Google Terms:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/Vegetable-Oil-Lister-Generator-6600-Watt.asp?page=L09989
Then just plant a bunch of Soybeans…
(nut and seed presses are also available to make the oil, if desired. The ‘leftovers’ make great pig and chicken feed… )
Yeah, I grew up in ‘farm country’ prior to university…
Solar is fine and all, but oils store energy better and it’s hard to beat Diesel for efficiency… So I’m a bit more partial to “solar power” via cottonwood trees, a wood stove, soybeans, and a Diesel… Now I just need 10 acres and the CARB to go away…
@ur momisugly E.M.Smith (23:46:36):
I’ve been considering the septic tank, and wondering about tapping it for methane. How much is it generating right now? Does it serve any function in keeping the system working? How about a house hooked to a municipal sewer system, does it have a source of “free” energy waiting to be used (at least until too many neighbors tap it as well)?
I’ve read that some municipalities now have treatment facilities that trap the methane for energy use. I’ve also heard of a few farmers that use it to power generators, gathered with a simple tarp over a pit for the animal waste, provides all the electricity they need. For a basic home the potential energy available may not be much, but that sure doesn’t mean it’s not worth considering at all.
More research is needed. Where do I send the grant application?
In Germany there is also this issue. Currently selling the power from solar panels makes more financial sense than using the power. But the price is fixed forever. Subsidies may be a factor in causing the energy price to rise in th e fututre, when this happens the type of crime, described in the main article, will dissappear. People know when they are committing crime. Every one who thinks they are subsidising solar will get their money back when solar power contract prices are lower than grid prices. Then we will have ‘cheap solar energy’.
Every once in a while I point people here and elsewhere to the project being advanced by Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, see lawrencevilleplasmaphysics.com and focusfusion.org . It got go-ahead funding in late ’08, and is targeting unity this year or early next using D-D, and will move on to p-B11 aneutronic thereafter. If it all pans out, there will be proven designs for manufacturing license world-wide within a couple of years thereafter.
The economics will kill all the green alternatives, and most conventional, dead within a very short timespan. The plan is for 5MW generators, about the size of a container or home garage including all housing, costing ~$250,000. Which is $0.05/W, 1/20 of best conventional, and about 1/100 of solar, etc. Output will cost about $0.001-$0.003/kwh at source, which is again 1/100-1/20 of current retail, and even better compared to all Greenscams.
Deployable anywhere there is reasonable monitoring and bi-annual or annual maintenance/refueling access. Distributed disruptive tech, with a vengeance.
Existing plant, and even fission plans, will be economic roadkill in short order.
See http://www.txnaturalresources.com/index.php/aboutus
for example of pumping water up for later release. Added benefit is this company is also trying to solve the fresh water problem at the same time.
Very interesting.
Dave Springer said “I can see some small offset for delivery charge being fair but in fairness any electricity I generate will be taken up by my neighbors within a few hundred feet of me so it’s not like my juice is going through fifty miles of wire back to the power plant.”
The problem is that when you are producing solar power your neighbors are not home and the power is needed at an industrial plant miles away. When your neighbors get home and demand peaks (about 8PM), you produce nothing. For your system to make sense you need to be paid what your power is worth which might be a few cents during the day.
They’re obviously not thinking big. Searchlight? Pfui! Put a really big mirror in geosynchronous orbit and use it to direct sunlight onto the solar panels at night.
Last year Americans were driving across the Mexican border to buy gas from Pemex, the state owned petroleum company at about $2.00/gal then returning to sell it about $3.50/gal.
Pemex soon ran low on gasoline and had to send tankers across the border to buy at about $3.50/gal so they could sell it again at $1.50/gal.
It took several weeks for the Governments to notice
I liken feed-in tariff subsidies to the local supermarket being obliged to buy your home grown cabbages: http://carbon-sense.com/2009/11/15/cabbages/
Solar energy has so many advantages and a number of companies are working on increasing the efficiency that a few, at least I hope it’s a few, “cleverly” try to take advantage is always unfortunate. I hope those honestly interested in advancing this technology will out those few.
I read today that Spectrolab has a photovoltaic panel used in space that boasts an efficiency rating of 30%. Nothing mentioned about making this available for the average homeowner, but they won’t be the only company that achieves this level of efficiency. I found this hopeful.
If you are interested in learning how you can transition to solar energy or incorporate solar energy into your life, check out http://www.solar-energy-advantages-blog.com for a practical approach.