First, let me say I’m a fan of solar power when done correctly and without financial carrots hung out for electricity generation that entice abuse of the system. I put solar on my own home.
Bishop Hill points out that some solar power installations in Spain were producing power at night.
He writes of what was thought to be a joke:
…The prices paid for green energy were so high that it appeared to be profitable to generate that energy by shining conventionally fuelled arclights on the solar panels.
But finds truth to be stranger than fiction:
Although the exact details are slightly different there is now an intriguing report of the scam in practice. The text is based on a machine translation of the original German text:
After press reports, it was established during inspections that several solar power plants were generating current and feeding it into the net at night. To simulate a larger installation capacity, the operators connected diesel generators.
“This is just the tip of the iceberg,” said one industry expert to the newspaper “El Mundo”, which brought the scandal to light. If solar systems apparently produce current in the dark, will be noticed sooner or later. However, if electricity generators were connected during daytime, the swindle would hardly be noticed.
As I said last time around, this is the insanity of greenery.
Here is the Google Translation of the article.
You too can generate energy with your solar system at night, all you need is an 850 million candlepower WWII era searchlight, now available for rent.
Hey, it’s not crazy. There are so many fees, taxes, add ons, etc to power bills here in California now it is actually cheaper to generate your own electricity running a diesel generator than it is to buy it from PG&E. Anyone have a used diesel-electric locomotive I can buy?
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Ontario, Canada will be a prime location for such gaming of the rebates. They recently announced the following feed-in tariffs for renewables (by the way, basic electricity rates are only 6 – 8 cents/kWhr, thanks to the current generation mix of hydro, nuclear and coal)-
# Less than 10 kW – 80.2 ¢/kWh
# 10 – 100 kW – 71.2 ¢/kWh
# 100-500 kW – 63.5 ¢/kWh
What a remarkable opportunity for government-sanctioned theft from your taxpaying neighbors.
http://www.morgansolar.com/blog/2009/03/13/new-ontario-feed-in-tariff-rates-for-solar-energy/
Amazing we can get all of this hyper-silliness, but we can’t get a proper grammar check.
Ya know, most electrical distribution systems in the U.S. today use a “Y” configuration(as opposed to a delta), where a “return” or “ground” line is utilized. If our resources were truly in peril, and the need for additional electricity wasn’t a manufactured difficulty, then there would probably be a way to utilize the current infrastructure that already has power RUNNING DOWN A LINE!!!!! But, that’s only if someone really gave a rat’s ass.
My brother gave me a tip a few years ago, that the best deal on diesel powered generators was DOD Surplus sales. Many of the generator were from de-commissioned missile sites. The generators were used for back up power and the only time they were run was the weekly test runs for a few minutes to charge the batteries. These generators had 100s hours on them, and they were designed for over a 10,000 hours at medium speed.
According to my brother who was in the diesel repair business, the Air Force was changing our these generators every ten years regardless of the hours. Most have a run time meter, so you can check the remaining life. We looked into getting a large one to power the neighborhood, but noise became the issue.
I decided on a small Kabota that could power up our house during an emergency power outage. We have used it during the Governor Brown Brownouts and when the snow and falling trees take down the power lines for a few days. I will have to look into using my diesel to offset my power usage during the new high rate periods.
It is possible (though the outlay would be costly) to recapture wasted street light. The closer you get to the light, the smaller the outlay and higher the capture.
It would be better, and most likely cheaper, to install a timer to switch off every other light in the wee hours.
Explore the possibilities.
“… I’m a fan of solar power when done correctly and without financial carrots …”
The Fat Spaniel tracking page for The Little Chico Solar Project at http://www.chicousd.org/dna/little_chico_creek/Solar_Energy_Project.html shows it produced 269 kWh today, maybe $30-$40 worth.
http://www.getsolar.com/blog/solar-panels-finally-popular-enough-to-steal/899/ “Only 17 of the 46 panels were recovered … represented only about 1/15th of the total installed capacity at the Little Chico Creek School”
How many solar panels are actually installed at Little Chico? How much did the entire system cost? What was the dollar value of the financial carrots from California taxpayers and US federal taxpayers?
James Sexton (20:29:02) :
A 90 year old man who spent most of his life studying told me that he had the solution: Pump water up hill using solar or other non-fossil fuels in the day, release it during the night to regenerate the power and release it to the grid.
Someone said earlier, coal fired wind farms. Already being done. Since the wind farms need an electrical backup, don’t be surprised to discover the backup is coal generated.
Something’s fishy.
Electricity to light and back is about 1% efficient, at best. I have a hard time imagining that the solar subsidy could be anywhere near large enough to make this plan work.
I find this re-volting, ………… 8^D
I just don’t see the sense in buying a used diesel locomotive to run a spot light to power a solar panel. Diesel locomotives aren’t just noisy, they stink and they are ugly, and this approach is outside the spirit of the program.
Instead, I think you should buy a used fighter jet. Mount the solar panels on the jet and then follow the Sun, legit solar power 24 x 7. You can land every so often and drop off the charged batteries and pick up another set. Way more cool than a diesel locomotive and I promise the whole neighbourhood will suddenly be your pals. Just don’t let ’em drive.
In former East Germany, to fill the gap in everyday demand, peasants were motivated to sell eggs, fruits, vegetables to a state-owned store. Got paid a subventioned price, then stepped in the same store through the front door and bought the their stuff back at a quarter of the price they’ve got paid minutes ago. In ’89 I thought these crazy times were gone for ever.
Wrong.
Producing solar power on your rooftop in sunny Germay today gets paid approx. 40 and 50 Eurocent per kWh. Guaranteed for 20 years.
Glad it’s not a German desease. However, Germans are always concerned that the poor pay for the wealthy somehow, but this is the biggest move-money-from-low-income-households-to-more-wealthy-households program I have seen.
Installed by social-democrats and greens, called a success story.
R. Craigen (19:18:30) :
“How do they verify that the power is from the solar cells? why not just hook the diesel generator to the grid and CLAIM that it came from one’s solar array?”
Think the meter reader would miss the quite hum of a locomotive in your backyard, with the three 4 inch black cables going to the huge meter?
Using an arc light to power a solar array, and here I thought the discussions of the first law of thermodynamics was heated over the viability of hho generators for cars.
It just keeps getting worse!
I’m sure as long as the appropriate carbon offset payments or carbon taxes or carbon tithes or whatever are paid to the appropriate people then the appropriate peer reviewed consensus would agree that diesel powered solar power will indeed save us from the planetary fever.
Simon Filiatrault’s suggestion (19:22:03) to use nuclear power to blow air at windmills is also double-good although it would be more efficient and double-green just to power the windmills directly.
We are at war with climate change. We have always been at war with climate change. We must not ask questions in a time of war.
Yeah that machine translation is unreadable. Anyone got a real-live person translation?
if you have the time its fun but from 45:00 on its a great point.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqPsB6jb6ig&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&border=1]
This is what I point out all the time: The law of unintended consequences.
rbateman (20:58:26) :
James Sexton (20:29:02) :
“A 90 year old man who spent most of his life studying told me that he had the solution: Pump water up hill using solar or other non-fossil fuels in the day, release it during the night to regenerate the power and release it to the grid.”
Beautiful idea!!! But would it work on a large scale as a substitute for our traditional energy? In some places, perhaps. The problem is, your max demand, typically, is during the day. Further, you still have the “sun shining all the time” problem. Remember, AC power is immediate. It cannot be stored.
A man nearing retirement. who spent his whole life working as a lineman, recently told me(2 years ago), “our world would be a lot easier if we figured out how to put that stuff(paraphrased) in a bottle.” (referring to AC power) I truly believe, that is where our focus should be. If and when that happens, then all of my stated problems regarding wind/solar/storage/peak….ect, go away.
I thought some solar panels could produce electricity at night time, they harness cosmic rays striking the panel??
After living through Enron why am I not in the least bit surprised. Greed and self-interest have no morals, never have, probably never will.
Just the other day a friend was telling me of a new plant that they built here in the UK. All built to the new regs and very green including a large wind turbine, and minimal concrete. Lots of glass and steel.
Except that the turbine has been dismantled as it cost more in power & maintenance to keep it running than was generated. As to the super energy efficient building: with so much glass the inside gets so hot that they have to turn up the ac, resulting in much larger electric bills.
Madness.
rbateman (20:58:26) :
James Sexton (20:29:02) :
A 90 year old man who spent most of his life studying told me that he had the solution: Pump water up hill using solar or other non-fossil fuels in the day, release it during the night to regenerate the power and release it to the grid.
———
By far the best way to do it if you’ve got a hill or tower big enough. The other option for solar would be to go solar thermal and use molten salts to retain enough heat to keep generating power through the night. In fact that’s what I thought this piece was about before I started reading. Off hand I don’t know what the efficiencies of solar thermal are though.
Mods, I noticed my comment is still pending approval – if it’s because of the “an easier way” comment feel free to snip it – no harm no foul.
We don’t need Anthony or WordPress getting in trouble for hosting instructions on how to break the law. Sorry if I caused any heartburn.
As always, you guys are all doing an amazing job – thanks for all you do : )
We don’t see that much sunshine so I’m thinking of buying a solar panel that runs on fairy dust. The drawback is, the little winged buggers are hell to catch…
If you have solar panels don’t you already have DC to AC converters?
What about storage batteries? No one ever talks about the cost of these items. Just the cost of the panels.