NSIDC's Walt Meier responds to Willis

Dr. Walt  Meier
Dr. Walt Meier

I read Willis Eschenbach’s post last week on Trust and Mistrust where he posed several questions and challenged scientists to respond to the same questions. So, below is my take on these questions. There are a couple points I need to make up front. First, I’m speaking for myself only, not as a representative of the National Snow and Ice Data Center or the University of Colorado. Second, I primarily study sea ice; climate science is a big field and I’m hardly a specialist in the technical details of many climate processes. However, I will provide, as best I can, the current thinking of most scientists working in the various aspects of climate science. Except where explicitly called for, I try to provide only scientific evidence and not my beliefs or personal opinions.

Also, I use the term “climate forcing” throughout. I’m sure this is familiar to most readers, but for clarity: a climate forcing is essentially anything that changes the earth’s global radiation budget (the net amount of radiative energy coming into the earth) and thus “forces” the earth’s climate to change.

Preface Question 1: Do you consider yourself an environmentalist?

Yes. However, I’m no tree-hugger. I don’t believe the environment should be preserved at all costs. I love my creature comforts and I don’t think we can or should ask people to significantly “sacrifice” for the environment. My feeling is that the environment has value and this value needs to be considered in economic and political decisions. In other words, the cost of cutting down a tree in a forest isn’t just the labor and equipment but also the intrinsic value of the tree to provide, among other things: (1) shade/scenery/inspiration for someone talking a walk in the woods, (2) a habitat for creatures living in the forest, (3) a sink for CO2, etc. And I don’t doubt at all that Willis is an environmentalist. However, whether one is an environmentalist or not doesn’t make the scientific evidence more or less valid.

Preface Question 2: What single word would you choose to describe your position on climate science?

Skeptic. This may surprise many people. But any good scientist is a skeptic. We always need to challenge accepted wisdom, we need to continually ask “does this make sense?, does it hold up?, is there another explanation?, is there a better explanation?” – not just of the work of other scientists, but also of our own work. However, a good skeptic also recognizes when there is enough evidence to place confidence in a finding. Almost all new theories have initially been looked upon skeptically by scientists of the time before being accepted – gravity, evolution, plate tectonics, relativity, quantum mechanics, etc.

Question 1. Does the earth have a preferred temperature, which is actively maintained by the climate system?

Willis says that he “believes the answer is yes”. In science “belief” doesn’t have much standing beyond initial hypotheses. Scientists need to look for evidence to support or refute any such initial beliefs. So, does the earth have a preferred temperature? Well, there are certainly some self-regulating mechanisms that can keep temperatures reasonably stable at least over a certain range of climate forcings. However, this question doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the issue of climate change and anthropogenic global warming. The relevant question is: can the earth’s temperature change over a range that could significantly impact modern human society? The evidence shows that the answer to this is yes. Over the course of its history the earth has experienced climatic regimes from the “snowball earth” to a climate where ferns grew near the North Pole. Both of those situations occurred tens or hundreds of millions of years ago; but more recently, the earth has experienced several ice age cycles, and just ~12,000 years ago, the Younger Dryas event led to significant cooling at least in parts of the Northern Hemisphere. So while the earth’s climate may prefer to remain at a certain stable state, it is clear that the earth has responded significantly to changes in climate forcings in the past.

Question 2: Regarding human effects on climate, what is the null hypothesis?

I will agree with Willis here – at one level, the null hypothesis is that any climate changes are natural and without human influence. This isn’t controversial in the climate science community; I think every scientist would agree with this. However, this null hypothesis is fairly narrow in scope. I think there is actually a more fundamental null hypothesis, which I’ll call null hypothesis 2 (NH2): are the factors that controlled earth’s climate in the past the same factors that control it today and will continue to do so into the future? In other words are the processes that have affected climate (i.e., the forcings – the sun, volcanic eruptions, greenhouse gases, etc.) in the past affecting climate today and will they continue to do so in the future? A basic premise of any science with an historical aspect (e.g., geology, evolution, etc.) is that the past is the key to the future.

Question 3: What observations tend to support or reject the null hypothesis?

Let me first address NH2. We have evidence that in the past the sun affected climate. And as expected we see the current climate respond to changes in solar energy. In the past we have evidence that volcanoes affected climate. And as expected we see the climate respond to volcanic eruptions (e.g., Mt. Pinatubo). And in the past we’ve seen climate change with greenhouse gases (GHGs). And as expected we are seeing indications that the climate is being affected by changing concentrations of GHGs, primarily CO2. In fact of the major climate drivers, the one changing most substantially over recent years is the greenhouse gas concentration. So what are the indications that climate is changing in response to forcing today as it has in the past? Here are a few:

1. Increasing concentrations of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere

2. Rising temperatures at and near the surface

3. Cooling temperatures in the stratosphere (An expected effect of CO2-warming, but not other forcings)

4. Rising sea levels

5. Loss of Arctic sea ice, particularly multiyear ice

6. Loss of mass from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets

7. Recession of most mountain glaciers around the globe

8. Poleward expansion of plant and animal species

9. Ocean acidification (a result of some of the added CO2 being absorbed by the ocean)

It is possible that latter 8 points are completely unrelated to point 1, but I think one would be hard-pressed to say that the above argues against NH2.

Of course none of the above says anything about human influence, so let’s now move on to Willis’ null hypothesis, call it null hypothesis 1 (NH1). Willis notes that modern temperatures are within historical bounds before any possible human influence and therefore claims there is no “fingerprint” of human effects on climate. This seems to be a reasonable conclusion at first glance. However, because of NH2, one can’t just naively look at temperature ranges. We need to think about the changes in temperatures in light of changes in forcings because NH2 tells us we should expect the climate to respond in a similar way to forcings as it has in the past. So we need to look at what forcings are causing the temperature changes and then determine whether if humans are responsible for any of those forcings. We’re seeing increasing concentrations of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere. We know that humans are causing an increase in atmospheric GHGs through the burning of fossil fuels and other practices (e.g., deforestation) – see Question 6 below for more detail. NH2 tells us that we should expect warming and indeed we do, though there is a lot of short-term variation in climate that can make it difficult to see the long-term trends.

So we’re left with two possibilities:

1. NH2 is no longer valid. The processes that have governed the earth’s climate throughout its history have suddenly starting working in a very different way than in the past.

Or

2. NH1 is no longer valid. Humans are indeed having an effect on climate.

Both of these things may seem difficult to believe. The question I would ask is: which is more unbelievable?

Question 4: Is the globe warming?

Willis calls this a trick question and makes the point that the question is meaningless with a time scale. He is correct of course that time scale is important. For NH2, the timescale is one in which the effects of changing forcings can been seen in the climate signals (i.e., where the “signal” of the forcings stands out against the short-term climate variations). For NH1, the relevant period is when humans began to possibly have a noticeable impact on climate. Basically we’re looking for an overall warming trend over an interval and at time-scales that one would expect to see the influence of anthropogenic GHGs.

Question 5: Are humans responsible for global warming?

Willis and I agree – the evidence indicates that the answer is yes.

Question 6: How are humans affecting the climate?

Willis mentions two things: land use and black carbon. These are indeed two ways humans are affecting climate. He mentions that our understanding of these two forcings is low. This is true. In fact the uncertainties are of the same order of as the possible effects, which make it quite difficult to tell what the ultimate impact on global climate these will have. However, Willis fails to directly mention the one forcing that we actually have good knowledge about and for which the uncertainties are much smaller (relative to the magnitude of the forcing): greenhouse gases (GHGs). This is because GHGs are, along with the sun and volcanoes, a primary component that regulates the earth’s climate on a global scale. It might be worth reviewing a few things:

1. Greenhouse gases warm the planet. This comes out of pretty basic radiative properties of the gases and has been known for well over 100 years.

2. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. This is has been also been known for well over 100 years. There are other greenhouse gases, e.g., methane, nitrous oxide, ozone, but carbon dioxide is the most widespread and longest-lived in the atmosphere so it is more relevant for long-term climate change.

3. The concentration of CO2 is closely linked with temperature – CO2 and temperature rise or fall largely in concert with each other. This has been observed in ice cores from around the world with some records dating back over 800,000 years. Sometimes the CO2 rise lags the temperature rise, as seems to be the case in some of ice ages, but this simply means that CO2 didn’t initiate the rise (it is clear that solar forcing did) and was a feedback. But regardless, without CO2 you don’t get swings between ice ages and interglacial periods. To paraphrase Richard Alley, a colleague at Penn State: “the climate history of the earth makes no sense unless you consider CO2”.

4. The amount of carbon dioxide (and other GHGs) has been increasing. This has been directly observed for over 50 years now. There is essentially no doubt as to the accuracy of these measurements.

5. The increase in CO2 is due to human emissions. There are two ways we know this. First, we know this simply through accounting – we can estimate how much CO2 is being emitted by our cars, coal plants, etc. and see if matches the observed increase in the atmosphere; indeed it does (after accounting for uptake from the oceans and biomass). Second, the carbon emitted by humans has a distinct chemical signature from natural carbon and we see that it is carbon with that human signature that is increasing and not the natural carbon.

6. Given the above points and NH2, one expects the observed temperature rise is largely due to CO2 and that increasing CO2 concentrations will cause temperatures to continue to rise over the long-term. This was first discussed well over 50 years ago.

If you’re interested in more details, I would recommend the CO2 page here: http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm, which is a supplement to Spencer Weart’s book, “The Discovery of Global Warming”.

Of course, there are other forcings so we don’t expect an exact match between temperatures and GHGs with a completely steady temperature increase. Periods of relatively cooler temperatures, more sea ice, etc. are still part of the natural variations of the climate system that continue to occur. Such periods may last for months or years. The anthropogenic GHG forcing is in addition to the natural forcings, it doesn’t supersede them. And of course, as with any scientific endeavor, there are uncertainties. We can’t give the precise amount warming one gets from a given amount of CO2 (and other GHGs) with 100% certainty; we make the best estimate we can based on the evidence we have. And that tells us that while there are uncertainties on the effect of GHGs, it is very unlikely the effect is negligible and the global effects are much larger than those of land use changes and soot.

Question 7: How much of the post-1980 temperature change is due to humans?

Here Willis says we get into murky waters and that there is little scientific agreement. And indeed this is true when discussing the factors he’s chosen to focus on: land use and soot. This is because, as mentioned above, the magnitudes of these forcings are small and the uncertainties relatively large. But there is broad scientific agreement that human-emitted CO2 has significantly contributed to the temperature change.

Question 8: Does the evidence from the climate models show that humans are responsible for changes in the climate?

Willis answers by claiming that climate models don’t provide evidence and that evidence is observable and measurable data about the real world. To me evidence is any type of information that helps one draw conclusions about a given question. In legal trials, it is not only hard physical evidence that is admitted, but information such as the state of mind of the defendant, motive, memories of eyewitnesses, etc. Such “evidence” may not have the same veracity as hard physical evidence, such as DNA, but nonetheless it can be useful.

Regardless, let me first say that I’m a data person, so I’ve always been a bit skeptical of models myself. We certainly can’t trust them to provide information with complete confidence. It may surprise some people, but most modelers recognize this. However, note that in my response to question 6 above, I never mention models in discussing the “evidence” for the influence of human-emitted CO2 on climate. So avoiding semantic issues, let me say that climate models are useful (though far from perfect) tools to help us understand the evidence for human and other influence on climate. And as imperfect as they may, they are the best tool we have to predict the future.

Question 9: Are the models capable of projecting climate changes for 100 years?

Based on Willis’ answer to Question 1, I’m surprised at his answer here. If the earth has a preferred temperature, which is actively maintained by the climate system, then it should be quite easy to project climate 100 years into the future. In Question 1, Willis proposed the type of well-behaved system that is well-suited for modeling.

However, Willis claims that such a projection is not possible because climate must be more complex than weather. How can a more complex situation be modeled more easily and accurately than a simpler situation? Let me answer that with a couple more questions:

1. You are given the opportunity to bet on a coin flip. Heads you win a million dollars. Tails you die. You are assured that it is a completely fair and unbiased coin. Would you take the bet? I certainly wouldn’t, as much as it’d be nice to have a million dollars.

2. You are given the opportunity to bet on 10000 coin flips. If heads comes up between 4000 and 6000 times, you win a million dollars. If heads comes up less than 4000 or more than 6000 times, you die. Again, you are assured that the coin is completely fair and unbiased. Would you take this bet? I think I would.

But wait a minute? How is this possible? A single coin flip is far simpler than 10000 coin flips. The answer of course is that what is complex and very uncertain on the small scale can actually be predictable within fairly narrow uncertainty bounds at larger scales. To try to predict the outcome of a single coin flip beyond 50% uncertainty, you would need to model: the initial force of the flip, the precise air conditions (density, etc.), along with a host of other things far too complex to do reasonably because, like the weather, there are many factors and their interactions are too complex. However, none of this information is really needed for the 10000 toss case because the influence of these factors tend to cancel each other out over the 10000 tosses and you’re left with a probabilistic question that is relatively easy to model. In truth, many physical systems are nearly impossible to model on small-scales, but become predictable to acceptable levels at larger scales.

Now of course, weather and climate are different than tossing a coin. Whereas coin flips are governed largely by statistical laws, weather and climate are mostly governed by physical laws. And climate models, as I mentioned above, are far from perfect. The relevant question is whether climate can be predicted at a high enough confidence level to be useful. As mentioned in NH2, we find that climate has largely varied predictably in response to past changes in forcing. This is clearly seen in ice core records that indicate a regular response to the change in solar forcing due to changes in the earth’s orbit (i.e., Milankovitch cycles). If climate were not generally predictable, we would expect the earth’s climate to go off into completely different states with each orbital change. But that doesn’t happen – the earth’s climate responds quite regularly to these cycles. Not perfectly of course – it is a complex system – but close enough that the uncertainties are low enough for us to make reasonable predictions.

It is worth mentioning here that while the general response of climate to forcing is steady and predictable, there is evidence for sudden shifts in climate from one regime to another. This doesn’t invalidate NH2, it merely suggests that there may be thresholds in the climate system that can be crossed where the climate transitions quickly into a new equilibrium. When exactly such a transition may occur is still not well known, which adds uncertainty suggest that impacts could come sooner and be more extreme than models suggest. On the other hand, as Willis mentions there may be stabilizing mechanisms that much such transitions less likely.

Finally, Willis says that climate model results are nothing more than the beliefs and prejudices of the programmers made tangible. But if Willis stands by his answer to Question 1 that the climate stays in preferred states, it should be very easy to create a new climate model, without those biases and prejudices, and show that humans aren’t having a significant effect on climate

Question 10: Are current climate theories capable of explaining the observations?

Willis answers no, but he doesn’t answering the question he poses. He instead discusses the climate sensitivity of to CO2 forcing, i.e., 3.7 Watts per square meters leads to a temperature change between 1.5 C and 4.5 C. These numbers are simply a quantitative estimate of NH2, with an associated uncertainty range. Not being able to narrow that range certainly indicates that we still have more to learn. But it’s important to note that as computing power has increased and as our understanding of the climate has increased over the past several decades that range hasn’t shifted much. It hasn’t gone to up to 6.5-9.5 C or down to -4.5 to -0.5 C. So this is further support for NH2. While perhaps we haven’t been able to narrow things down to the exact house in our neighborhood, we’ve gained increasing confidence that the hypothesis that we’re in the right neighborhood is correct.

But getting back to the question Willis posed. Yes, current climate theories are capable of explaining the observations – if one includes GHGs. Increasing GHGs should result in increasing temperatures and that is what we’ve observed. The match isn’t perfect of course, but nor should it expected to be. In addition to anthropogenic GHG forcing, there are other natural forcings still playing a role and there may things we’re not fully accounting for. For example, Arctic sea ice is declining much faster than most models have projected. Remember, where models are wrong does not necessarily provide comfort – things could ultimately be more extreme than models project (particularly if a threshold is crossed).

Question 11: Is the science settled?

This isn’t a particularly well-posed question, for which Willis is not to blame. What “science” are we talking about? If we’re talking about the exact sensitivity of climate to CO2 (and other GHGs), exactly what will be the temperature rise be in the next 100 years, what will happen to precipitation, what will be the regional and local impacts? Then no, the science is not even close to being settled. But if the question is “is NH2 still valid?”, then yes I would say the science is settled. And as a result, we also can say the science is settled with respect to the question: “have human-emitted GHGs had a discernable effect on climate and can we expect that effect to continue in the future?”

Question 12: Is climate science a physical science?

Willis answers “sort of” and that it is a “very strange science” because he defines climate as the “average of weather over a suitably long period of time” and that “statistics is one of the most important parts of climate science”. Our description of climate does indeed rely on statistics because they are useful tools to capture the processes that are too complex to explicitly examine. This is not unlike a lot of physical sciences, from chemistry to biology to quantum physics, which employ statistical approaches to describe processes that can’t be explicitly measured. But statistics are merely a tool. The guts of climate science are the interactions between elements of the climate system (land, ocean, atmosphere, cryosphere) and their response to forcings. This isn’t really all that different from many physical sciences.

Question 13: Is the current peer-review system inadequate, and if so how can it be improved?

There is always room for improvement and Willis makes some good suggestions in this regard. Speaking only from my experience, the process works reasonably well (though not perfectly), quality papers eventually get published and bad papers that slip through the peer-review process and get published can be addressed by future papers.

Question 14: Regarding climate, what action (if any) should we take at this point?

This is of course an economic and political question, not a scientific question, though the best scientific evidence we have can and should inform the answer. So far there isn’t any scientific evidence that refutes NH2 and we conclude that the processes that influenced climate in the past are doing so today and will continue to do so in the future. From this we conclude that humans are having an impact on climate and that this impact will become more significant in the future as we continue to increase GHGs in the atmosphere. Willis answers no and claims that the risks are too low to apply the precautionary principle. The basis for his answer, in practical terms, is his conclusion that NH2 is no longer valid because while GHGs have been a primary climate forcing throughout earth’s history, they are no longer having an impact. This could of course be true, but to me there doesn’t seem to be much evidence to support this idea. But then again, I’m a skeptic.

The climate data they don't want you to find — free, to your inbox.
Join readers who get 5–8 new articles daily — no algorithms, no shadow bans.
0 0 votes
Article Rating
546 Comments
Vincent
April 9, 2010 4:09 am

Re: Null Hypothesis 2 “Are the factors that controlled earth’s climate in the past the same factors that control it today and will continue to do so into the future?”
NH2 looks like a trojan horse argument. Actually it isn’t even a hypothesis, null or otherwise. If it is a hypothesis, then the idea that the laws of physics operate the same everywhere in the universe is also a hypothesis. So the question is, why is this being smuggled into the discussion?
The author then states:
“So we’re left with two possibilities:
1. NH2 is no longer valid. The processes that have governed the earth’s climate throughout its history have suddenly starting working in a very different way than in the past.
Or
2. NH1 is no longer valid. Humans are indeed having an effect on climate
”
But NH1 and NH2 are not mutually exclusive at all. NH1, remember, is that climate is changing naturally. If it is no longer valid, then humans are indeed effecting the climate. How is that mutually exclusive with NH2 which states that the laws that govern climate have remained constant over time? Humans have indeed effective the climate, along with natural cycles, AND the laws governing climate are unchanging over time.
The author is either confused or trying to smuggle in NH2 as the valid hypothesis and then use that to argue for AGW – the trojan horse argument. We see the horse unveiled in the conclusion, where he writes:
“The basis for his answer, in practical terms, is his conclusion that NH2 is no longer valid because while GHGs have been a primary climate forcing throughout earth’s history, they are no longer having an impact. This could of course be true, but to me there doesn’t seem to be much evidence to support this idea.”
Now, nowhere did Willis even describe NH2, much less try and invalidate it. We certainly DO NOT understand quantitativly how CO2 has effected climate in the past, and are not able to quantify it today. The NH2 argument seems to be saying that we do, precisely understand past climate swings, and precisely the effect CO2 had on those. NH2 is saying that based on those facts, we know how much CO2 is warming the globe today. CO2 is causing most of the warming because, as NH2 states, the laws of climate have not changed.
It is a circular argument based on slight of hand. Sounding more like classical arguments to prove the existence of God, it does nothing to refute the sceptical position: humans and CO2 do indeed effect the climate, but the sensitivity is lower than asserted by the IPCC.
I expected a well balance argument from a scientist, but all I’ve seen is spin and propaganda. Not impressed, am I.

Argh
April 9, 2010 4:19 am

Your invitation to be coopted has been taken up.
Now your path is paved with intellectual compromise and it’s all downhill.

April 9, 2010 4:29 am

John Wright:

Greenhouse gases warm the planet? – radiative properties of gases? I don’t think I would be misquoting Hans Schreuder in saying that such a proposition equates to perpetual motion. Surely only the sun warms the planet..
But if for the sake of argument, one accepts the hypothesis of greenhouse gases, their role would surely be to prevent or slow down the escape of heat..
..but I still don’t see how greenhouse gases could be said to be radiating heat downwards; to a layman like me, that is abuse of language

I don’t know who Hans Schreuder is, but no it’s nothing like perpetual motion.
The sun warms the planet. With no trace gases absorbing and re-radiating the earth’s radiation it would be colder than it currently is. And if the sun “turned off”, then the earth would become very cold, eventually close to absolute zero. Therefore, no “perpetual motion”.
We can measure the downward longwave radiation. See, for example, CO2 – An Insignificant Trace Gas? Part Six – Visualization where the downward radiation in the 15um (CO2) band is measured.
Or Sensible Heat, Latent Heat and Radiation where the measured downward longwave radiation can be seen.
It’s not reflection. Trace gases like CO2, methane, NO2 and water vapor absorb energy. Then they re-radiate energy – in all directions. If it was reflection then the spectral properties of the downward longwave radiation would be the same as the terrestrial radiation. But it’s not.
No surprises given that 100+ years of spectroscopy has demonstrated and explained this.
And for the many Gerlich and Tscheuschner fans –
check out On the Miseducation of the Uninformed by Gerlich and Tscheuschner (2009)

Editor
April 9, 2010 4:32 am

Dr. Meier,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to post your thoughts here. You can add me to the list of WUWT readers who would love to have a few beers with you and discuss the science. You made a very good point about “belief” having no scientific relevance. I’m an evil oil industry geoscientist and I have a couple of questions about some points that you made that I think are based more on “belief” than “science”…

Question 2: Regarding human effects on climate, what is the null hypothesis?
I will agree with Willis here – at one level, the null hypothesis is that any climate changes are natural and without human influence. This isn’t controversial in the climate science community; I think every scientist would agree with this. However, this null hypothesis is fairly narrow in scope. I think there is actually a more fundamental null hypothesis, which I’ll call null hypothesis 2 (NH2): are the factors that controlled earth’s climate in the past the same factors that control it today and will continue to do so into the future? In other words are the processes that have affected climate (i.e., the forcings – the sun, volcanic eruptions, greenhouse gases, etc.) in the past affecting climate today and will they continue to do so in the future? A basic premise of any science with an historical aspect (e.g., geology, evolution, etc.) is that the past is the key to the future.

“However, this null hypothesis is fairly narrow in scope. I think there is actually a more fundamental null hypothesis, which I’ll call null hypothesis 2 (NH2): are the factors that controlled earth’s climate in the past the same factors that control it today and will continue to do so into the future? In other words are the processes that have affected climate (i.e., the forcings – the sun, volcanic eruptions, greenhouse gases, etc.) in the past affecting climate today and will they continue to do so in the future?”
Then, why don’t CO2 and temperature correlate in a meaningful way over geologic time?
Phanerozoic Temp vs. CO2
The only paper I am aware of that yielded a Phanerozoic correlation between CO2 and temperature was Royer et al., 2004. However, they derived a pH correction for d18O temperatures from CO2; and then used the pH correction to “force” the temperatures to correlate to the CO2.
If CO2 can drive climate change… Shouldn’t it have clearly done so over geologic time?

Question 3: What observations tend to support or reject the null hypothesis?
Let me first address NH2. We have evidence that in the past the sun affected climate. And as expected we see the current climate respond to changes in solar energy. In the past we have evidence that volcanoes affected climate. And as expected we see the climate respond to volcanic eruptions (e.g., Mt. Pinatubo). And in the past we’ve seen climate change with greenhouse gases (GHGs). And as expected we are seeing indications that the climate is being affected by changing concentrations of GHGs, primarily CO2. In fact of the major climate drivers, the one changing most substantially over recent years is the greenhouse gas concentration. So what are the indications that climate is changing in response to forcing today as it has in the past? Here are a few:
1. Increasing concentrations of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere
[…]
3. Cooling temperatures in the stratosphere (An expected effect of CO2-warming, but not other forcings)
4. Rising sea levels
[…]
6. Loss of mass from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets
7. Recession of most mountain glaciers around the globe
[…]
9. Ocean acidification (a result of some of the added CO2 being absorbed by the ocean)

“1. Increasing concentrations of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere”
Why do plant stomata data consistently show that the rise in CO2 since ~1860 is not anomalous in magnitude or rate of onset?
CO2: Ice Cores vs. Plant Stomata
Atmospheric CO2 (800 AD to 2009 AD)UAH Strat v Trop
“3. Cooling temperatures in the stratosphere (An expected effect of CO2-warming, but not other forcings)”
Almost all of the stratospheric cooling occurred in two step-shifts…
Why is it the the stratosphere has almost never cooled concurrently with tropospheric warming?
A Simple Refutation of an Enhanced Greenhouse Effect?
“4. Rising sea levels”
Sea level has been generally rising since the onset of the Holocene. On a local scale it’s been rising since shortly after the warm up from the Little Ice Age began. On a very local scale, the rate of sea level rise in the early 20th century was almost identical to that of the late 20th century. There was a hiatus of sea level rise in the mid-20th century…
Sea Level Since 1900 AD
The total sea level change over the 20th century is about 6 inches.
The total change in sea level since 1700 is less than 300mm…
Sea Level Since 1700 AD
If you plot the sea level changes over the last 300 years at the same scale as the Pleistocene glacial/interglacial sea level changes, the last 300 years is one point on the chart. Sea level during the last interglacial (Sangamonian/Eemian) was ~20 ft higher than the current sea level.
How is the 20th century sea level change anomalous at any scale?
“6. Loss of mass from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets”
How did those ice sheets fare during the Holocene Climate Optimum, Roman Warming and Medieval Warm Period. Eyeballing Alley’s 2004 temperature reconstruction of Central Greenland, it looks like Greenland hasn’t been doing anything differently over the last 200 years than it has done over the last 12,000 years…
Central Greenland
When I combine the ice core data with borehole and modern temperature data, it doesn’t appear to me that Greenland is doing anything out of the ordinary… Greenland
How does Greenland’s non-anomalous behavior suddenly support GHG-driven climate change?
“7. Recession of most mountain glaciers around the globe”
The alpine glaciers at Glacier National Park and Mount Hood formed between the Medieval Climate Optimum and the end of the Little Ice Age. They have routinely advanced and retreated along with the various climate cycles, particularly the 1,500-yr cycle. Archaeological data show that the Schnidejoch Pass in the Alps has routinely opened and closed as alpine glaciers advanced and retreated in concert with the ~1500-yr cycle.
How are alpine glaciers behaving differently now than they did in the previous warm phases of the ~1,500-yr cycle?
“9. Ocean acidification (a result of some of the added CO2 being absorbed by the ocean)”
Oceanic pH has ranged between ~7.8 and ~8.3 for at least the last 6,000 years. Pelejero et al., 2005 found that pH varies cyclically with a strong correlation to the PDO…
Pelejero>Pelejero
Pelejero found that since 1700, oceanic pH has been varying within the same range (7.8-8.3) that it has been for at least the last 6,000 years.
How if the lack of anomalous oceanic pH variation evidence of GHG-driven climate change?

Cassandra King
April 9, 2010 4:35 am

Having read Walt Meiers article several times I can see a distinct lack of balance, he seems start with a belief then he finds any facts to support that belief, while witholding elements and evidence that contradicts his beliefs.
I can detect no emerging data that contradicts the AGW theory and indeed the evidence he presents is in many cases outdated and/or has been refuted.
I would admire his attempt to engage with sceptics but I fear that this article is no engagement but simply a re statement of entrenched belief.
I see no scientific method, I see no atempt to see both sides of the debate and sadly I see no effort to truly engage us with the real facts.
What I see rightly or wrongly is a rehash of the consensus using out of date evidence selectively applied with contrary data ignored to present an entrenched opinion, that isnt science as I understand the term, it smacks of a political belief using partisan data to present a partisan case.
I do however applaud the posting of this article, it shows us in great detail what is going on in the minds of the AGW supporters, how they justify there stances and how they intend to defend their ideas.
Many better posters than me will be able to dissect this article and I look forward to that dissection with eager anticipation.

Gail Combs
April 9, 2010 4:41 am

Dave Wendt (22:17:33) :
Thanks Walt, I commend you for having enough courage of conviction to place your thoughts before an audience who obviously “will just be trying to find something wrong ” with them.
Reply:
Mr. Wendt “will just be trying to find something wrong ” with them is exactly what the scientific method is all about.
In one company I worked for (Gillette) a new product idea was presented to a large audience after the pilot plant phase and SCUT( Simulated Consumer Use Tests) Everyone would then have a go at tearing the product and its manufacturing process apart. Egos were to be left at the door, only logic and evidence were welcome.
This is similar to what should be done to any theory and is what a scientist should expect when he presents new findings. I have had my work put through that type of “grilling” on several occasions. If you have an open mind it leads another step down the path of truth. This is my biggest problem with AGW. The science community is hung up on CO2 as a forcing, all effort is being focused on finding evidence that mankind is guilty (and therefore must be punished through taxes and regulation) Criticism of CO2 as THE MAJOR forcing is punished and investigation of any other theories is suppressed or ridiculed.
Dr. Walt Meier works for the National Snow and Ice Data Center yet he supports CO2 as THE MAJOR forcing and ignores the most abundant and variable of green house gases WATER.
To Quote:
“1. Greenhouse gases warm the planet. This comes out of pretty basic radiative properties of the gases and has been known for well over 100 years.
2. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. This is has been also been known for well over 100 years. There are other greenhouse gases, e.g., methane, nitrous oxide, ozone, but carbon dioxide is the most widespread and longest-lived in the atmosphere so it is more relevant for long-term climate change.

Where the heck is the mention of WATER?????
Dr. Walt Meier also uses this as evidence.
3. The concentration of CO2 is closely linked with temperature – CO2 and temperature rise or fall largely in concert with each other.
However anyone trying to pour hot soda into a glass knows CO2 is more soluble in cold water than it is in hot water and that water covers most of the surface of the earth. As a chemist if the concentration of CO2 was not closely linked with temperature I would start investigating. This scientific principle, proved by experiment, and the lag between the rise in CO2 and the temperature rise, again proved by evidence, indicates temperature is the “forcing” not CO2.
Dr. Meier then addresses the present changes in the climate.
“So what are the indications that climate is changing in response to forcing today as it has in the past? Here are a few:
1. Increasing concentrations of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere
2. Rising temperatures at and near the surface
3. Cooling temperatures in the stratosphere (An expected effect of CO2-warming, but not other forcings)
4. Rising sea levels
5. Loss of Arctic sea ice, particularly multiyear ice
6. Loss of mass from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets
7. Recession of most mountain glaciers around the globe
8. Poleward expansion of plant and animal species
9. Ocean acidification (a result of some of the added CO2 being absorbed by the ocean)

He then goes on to “prove” his case that these changes can all be explained by increases in man released CO2. However the critical question is not “can we come up with a way to blame man for the changes” the question Dr. Meier is actually addressing, but whether these changes are outside the natural variation of the earths climate. The answer of course is NO.
see the graphs at http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/noaa_gisp2_icecore_anim_hi-def3.gif
The other little thing that is always left out of the discussion is how much CO2 is mankind actually contributing. It is about 3% with nature contributing the other 97% http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/eia_co2_contributions_table3.png
What is used on the unwashed masses is the Hegelian dialectic to get a predetermined consensus (agreement to hand over more of our wealth) This process was designed by George Wilhelm Hegel, a transformational Marxist.
Here is how it works: A diverse group of people ( believers (thesis) and unbelievers (antithesis) gather in a facilitated meeting and using group dynamics (Peer pressure) to discuss a social issue (NAIS/AGW) reach a pre-determined outcome (consensus, compromise, or Systhesis)
To understand it more (typing the HTTP http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/brainwashing/dialectic.htm ) Read it all and you will see that the groups we know use the ‘Process’ to sway our thinking. Learn and understand it. The Delphi technique ( type in Http http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation_process/acf001.htm) is based on the Hegelian principle and there is ways to break this up but you must know how to recognize when the Delphi/Hegelian principle is being used.(type in the Http http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation_process/acf002.htm ) Comment gisela NoNAIS.org
The same principles are used on a much wider basis to influence entire populations.
Oh and if you really want a reason to panic, a newly discovered asteroid just passed between the earth and the moon http://www.khou.com/news/Asteroid-to-pass-between-earth-moon-on-Thursday-90122092.html

Solomon Green
April 9, 2010 4:42 am

May I add my thanks to Dr. Meier for venturing into the dragon’s den and to Anthony Watts for publishing Dr. Meier’s very readable and reasonable response. I am still left, however, with some nuggling doubts.
I have a problem with any article that can assert “Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. This is has been also been [sic] known for well over 100 years. There are other greenhouse gases, e.g., methane, nitrous oxide, ozone, but carbon dioxide is the most widespread and longest-lived in the atmosphere so it is more relevant for long-term climate change.”
Relative to water vapour, carbon dioxide is a very minor greenhouse gas. There is also enough evidence to show that the volume of water vapour in the atmosphere might have varied considerably over any time scale that is taken into consideration.
As with Peter Sorensen and John Gorter I also believe that at least some of the last eight of Dr. Meier’s list of nine evidential data are still disputed but even if we take them for granted, what evidence is there that their correlation with increasing concentrations of CO2 and other GHGs in the atmosphere is other than spurious?
From my hazy memory of Karl Popper, I always understood that in science one put forward a hypothesis and then kept trying to disprove it. It was only when no proof to the contrary could be found that the hypothesis was advanced to a theory. Climate change (as shorthand for man-made “global warming”) is still, probably, at the hypothesis stage. The trouble is that too many climatologists – for reasons of funding, publishing or otherwise – are devoting their research into trying to prove the hypothesis rather than, as true scientists should, to demolish it.

April 9, 2010 4:51 am

Thank you for your contribution, Dr. Meier! As you can tell from the comments, we are a serious bunch who welcome open discussion and a variety of opinions.
I agree with much that has been said, and only wish to emphasize the unknown impact of the biosphere in a warming, CO2-enriched planet. Photosynthesis of all kinds should increase, and this should be incorporated into climate models. To date, I find this brushed off by nearly all in the climate change community.
Excellent column, WUWT is evolving into a forum for deep discussion and analysis of some very advanced science. It’s a pleasure to be able to contribute.

April 9, 2010 4:55 am

Thanks in advance for posting this and braving the wrath of skeptics. I have a number of points I would like to raise but the first is:
Answer to question 3 contains the following statement:
“And in the past we’ve seen climate change with greenhouse gases (GHGs).”
The support for this statement appears to come from Q6, item 3:
“3. The concentration of CO2 is closely linked with temperature – CO2 and temperature rise or fall largely in concert with each other. This has been observed in ice cores from around the world with some records dating back over 800,000 years. Sometimes the CO2 rise lags the temperature rise, as seems to be the case in some of ice ages, but this simply means that CO2 didn’t initiate the rise (it is clear that solar forcing did) and was a feedback. But regardless, without CO2 you don’t get swings between ice ages and interglacial periods.”
This statement really does not hold up. The evidence of ice core data strongly suggests a lag of around 800 years, so temperature change leads CO2 change. The idea that solar forcing caused temperature rise and this causes CO2 rise is reasonable and would be consistent with CO2 coming out of solution from the oceans, or perhaps changes in biosphere activity. However the statement that there is then a feedback cannot be true – because how do we then revert back to a new ice age? Solar forcing again? If so, the CO2 rise is a red herring because to explain the cycling between ice ages requires positive and negative solar forcings – in which case CO2 becomes irrelevent and is clearly such a small effect it cannot overcome the natural solar forcing proposed. The argument that CO2 drives temperature in the ice core record reverses rational cause and effect. I do not see how the historical T/CO2 record over ice ages can support the importance of CO2 as a climate driver.
A second corrolary to this is if CO2 were the driver, why does CO2 go up and down in the ice core records. All on its own? What possible physical mechanism could explain CO2 as the cause?
The above arguments I put only falsify the suggestion that CO2 is a climate driver in the past 800,000 years. The argument for a modern AGW caused by increasing CO2 is not disproved by this, but ice core data cannot be used in support of the AGW theory – the physical mechanisms of cause and effect must be different. If modern CO2 increase does influence climate it is must be a very small and temporary effect compared to the scale of solar (or perhaps Malankovitch) forcing evidenced in the ice core records.

Craig Goodrich
April 9, 2010 4:57 am

Echoing the kudos to Walt for reasoned engagement, though I believe most of his points are subject to refutation by current scholarship.
In particular, “ocean acidification” is simply not happening. How could it, when
a) the ocean contains nearly two orders of magnitude more CO2 than the entire atmosphere; and
b) the pH of the tropical ocean around an atoll, for example, can vary by 0.3 to 0.5 over the course of a single day?

Bill Marsh
April 9, 2010 4:59 am

Dr Meier,
First, thank you for the well reasoned, professional response. It is refreshing to get to read a response like this that doesn’t devolve into an ad hominem attack replete with name calling and emotion laden statements. A real pleasure, Sir. again thank you.
Not to say I agree with everything you state tho.
I don’t agree with Dr Willis either in toto. I especially do not agree that earth has a ‘preferred’ temperature that it seeks. Having read a good deal of the back and forth (I’m not a ‘scientist’, I’m an IT Security expert) but I did do some preliminary work towards a Phd in Operations Research specializing in feedback systems before I took a different path (I got a little frustrated with modeling of feedback systems in which the overwhelming majority assumed away the problem “to make the model mathematically tractable”. Didn’t seem to me that this was accomplishing anything, but I digress). It looks to me like the earth’s climate, over time, is behaving exactly like you would expect a complex, non-linear, open feedback system to behave, with large fluctuations from the initial state, which become smaller and smaller as the feedback system stabilizes. As new forcings are introduced (volcano, meteor strike, human increase in GHG, land use change, etc), the system seeks a new equilibrium range. Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect the earth’s climate will never ‘stabilize’, but will tend to stay within a much narrower temperature range than it has in the past. What that range is is anybodies guess.
The key question that we want to answer is, “what effect will human climate forcings (all of them) have on the equilibrium temperature range?” Some think it will be large, some appear to think it will be catastrophic, creating a new feedback cycle with requisite large swings in temperature as it seeks a new equilibrium range, some (the ‘skeptics’) think it will be small. I tend to believe it will be in the small range.
In the end I don’t think we know enough about all the different processes and their effects to be able to make a reasonable projection. This is why I am in the skeptic camp. I cannot accept the definitive statement’s from Dr Mann like the CO2 sensitivity of the climate system is 3C per doubling of atmospheric CO2 content. I don’t think we know enough about the feedback system to come close to making statements like that.
I seem to be rambling one of those ‘streams of consciousness’ but the point (if I actually have one) is that I don’t think we are as close to understanding the climate system and the effect of human provided forcings as the IPCC seems to think. I don’t know that we ever will.

Steve in SC
April 9, 2010 4:59 am

The increase in CO2 is due to human emissions. There are two ways we know this. First, we know this simply through accounting – we can estimate how much CO2 is being emitted by our cars, coal plants, etc. and see if matches the observed increase in the atmosphere; indeed it does (after accounting for uptake from the oceans and biomass). Second, the carbon emitted by humans has a distinct chemical signature from natural carbon and we see that it is carbon with that human signature that is increasing and not the natural carbon.
This is a new one doc. I need to see some evidence before I even begin to think about believing that. My opinion: that is full of it.

April 9, 2010 5:01 am

It is pretty well conceded that temperature swings as rapid and large as the last one have happened 3 times since 1860. [Re Phil Jones of CRU fame] These swings have probably been going on forever but the thermometer hadn’t been invented yet. The rate and amount is very similar for all three but the first two cannot have been caused by CO2.
It is logical to think that the same mechanism caused all three temperature swings, but the first two have never been explained. The third temperature swing is probably caused by the same thing as the first two. To reject that hypothesis and state that since we cannot explain any of them the firs two must be natural and the last one CO2 is illogical.

Mae
April 9, 2010 5:01 am

Respect for your willingness to engage here, also with your earlier posts on this site, I know this is not entirely acceptable to some scientists in climate science – so thank you for sharing your answers here.
Rational and open discourse about scientific disagreements is the right way to engage with proponents of opposing views. Some of the points you made have certainly given me new material to think about, some things I disagree with, others that I consider important are missing but I do believe if the entire debate could be more like this and move away from the vileness that I’ve observed from both sides, we’d be in a better place.
For my part, I’d be most interested in your views of the ocean oscillations and the proposed 1500-year cycle of the North Atlantic (I understand this to be a possibly significant contribution to both short- and long term variations)

Stephan
April 9, 2010 5:01 am

Actually this list in my view puts Dr Meier in the same category as the warmistas.
2. Rising temperatures at and near the surface
3. Cooling temperatures in the stratosphere (An expected effect of CO2-warming, but not other forcings)
4. Rising sea levels
5. Loss of Arctic sea ice, particularly multiyear ice
6. Loss of mass from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets
7. Recession of most mountain glaciers around the globe
8. Poleward expansion of plant and animal species
9. Ocean acidification (a result of some of the added CO2 being absorbed by the ocean)
He is not a skeptic because they are all false; please show me that they are true.

Steve Allen
April 9, 2010 5:03 am

Dr Meier,
Thank you very much for your time in writing to this post. It is much appreciated. Please help me understand something. From question 9, you stated;
“ …call it null hypothesis 1 (NH1). Willis notes that modern temperatures are within historical bounds before any possible human influence and therefore claims there is no “fingerprint” of human effects on climate. This seems to be a reasonable conclusion at first glance.”
Steve Allen’s interpretation: Meier aggrees that modern temps aren’t significantly different than those in warm, pre-industrial periods.
You went on and stated;
“However, because of NH2, one can’t just naively look at temperature ranges. We need to think about the changes in temperatures in light of changes in forcings because NH2 tells us we should expect the climate to respond in a similar way to forcings as it has in the past. So we need to look at what forcings are causing the temperature changes and then determine whether if humans are responsible for any of those forcings.”
Steve Allen’s interpretation: Because Meir acknowledges he has NO temperature evidence for AGW, he immediately is forced to jump to a position whereby he is postulating the AGW-CO2 hypothesis.
Question 10 you stated:
“…For example, Arctic sea ice is declining much faster than most models have projected. Remember, where models are wrong does not necessarily provide comfort – things could ultimately be more extreme than models project (particularly if a threshold is crossed).”
Steve Allen’s interpretation: Or could it mean the model was without skill for reason(s) other than AGW-CO2 hypothesis?
Dr. Meier, can you please clarify your seemingly inconsistent answer to question #9? Or provide a source of unadulterated global temperature data that supports your AGW-CO2 hypothesis? Also, can you comment on the cause for decreasing Arctic sea ice? Isn’t more likely the models are wrong for reasons unrelated to the AGW-CO2 hypothesis?

Jordan
April 9, 2010 5:04 am

Walt – I’d agree with you for not taking that bet on the single toss of a coin.
But on 10,000 tosses, would you take a bet on the number of heads being greater than 5,000?
Or how about a bet where you are given this choice: the the total number of heads is inside or outside of the range 4,866-5,134.
On exactly the same reasoning, I would suggest you would not take either of my alternative bets.
The range you give for the second test (4000 to 6000) is too generous. You altered the bet, leading to an unfair conclusion.
My range is based on the standard deviation of a large number of coin tosses (about 0.2), the central limit theorem and the the range of outcomes which keep the probability of the bet at 50/50 eitehr way.
These should help to illustrate how the apparent narrower range of variation of an average does not mean we can therefore predict averages more “accurately”. To assess the accuracy of a predition of an average, we cannot simply use the variance of individual observations – that is not comparing apples-to-apples.
Perhaps a chance to re-consider views on the utility of those long term predictions.

GabrielHBay
April 9, 2010 5:10 am

For me, this post adds nothing to the debate. All of this stale arguing about worn-out issues mean NOTHING unless it can be reliably and credibly shown that, for the last 100 years or so:
a) the way of looking at temperature is in fact meaningful to climate.
b) the temperature has increased by a statistically meaningful margin.
c) the increase is larger than the margin of error.
d) the data on which this is based is sufficiently virgin to be meaningful.
e) the adjustments to the data were clear, well founded and without agenda.
Anyone who considers the above points to be adequately shown, has either not been paying attention, or is seriously naive, or is simply (forgive me!) being less than honest. This is the bedrock for the entire rest of the argument about the role of CO2, man’s “culpability”, any precautionary action, etc. etc. Countless hours of reading, here and elsewhere, have convinced me of this. On a daily basis, I despair at how the wood gets lost in the trees when the debates go on and on, based on “rising temperatures” as if it were a given! It seems to me as if (in the blog comments at least) the voices raising this question are too few and far between.

Mae
April 9, 2010 5:10 am

Btw, I’d pass on the 10,000 coin toss bet. The laws of probability merely make your proposed outcome the most likely, not certain. I’ve been on the wrong side of a one in a million problem before (and I mean that literally) and it is too easy to forget that for every 999,999 people that are on the right side there is one that isn’t. So thanks but no thanks.

AdderW
April 9, 2010 5:13 am

5.
…Second, the carbon emitted by humans has a distinct chemical signature from natural carbon and we see that it is carbon with that human signature that is increasing and not the natural carbon.

unnatural carbon it is then, what is unnatural carbon?

Curiousgeorge
April 9, 2010 5:14 am

I made this comment in a previous thread and with some minor changes I felt it’s appropriate here also.
As a general comment on prediction, which is really what this is all about, (weather, climate, or otherwise ): If a prediction is made ( via chicken bones or computer models ) and believed then people will act on that prediction in order to change the predicted future in some manner if it is in their interest and power to do so. Thus invalidating the original prediction, and setting up some other possible future with a different ( and likely unknown ) set of probabilities and outcomes.
This is one of the things that drives any number of “climate modification” proposals currently being considered, and other actions (political, financial, and social ) intended to bring about a different future and why I tend to be very, very cautious and skeptical of anything that is justified by pleading the so-called “precautionary principle”.
It is also very likely that the new future will not be acceptable to others. Who is right and who is wrong?
This is why people (in free countries anyway ) vote on significant issues that affect their future. It is not acceptable that I should be deprived of my vote by a very small minority of well-meaning smart guys, let alone others with not so well meaning agendas.
Let us not forget Niels Bohr’s admonition that prediction is very difficult, especially if it concerns the future. 🙂

April 9, 2010 5:16 am

The statement:
“Second, the carbon emitted by humans has a distinct chemical signature from natural carbon and we see that it is carbon with that human signature that is increasing and not the natural carbon.”
is not true – there is no such thing as a “chemical” signature for a CO2 molecule burned by humans. What is it? A nuclear change? A CO2 molecule in the atmosphere is just that – a CO2 molecule and they all behave the same. Also worth pointing out that the residence time for CO2 is very short – around 7 years and that there is almost no difference in residence time between C12 and C14 atom CO2 molecules. The short residence time suggests CO2 is being cycled very rapidly in the atmosphere.
Also, the isotope ratio of carbon molecules from burning fossil fuels…is the isotope ratio that pertained when the organic matter was buried millions of years ago.

GabrielHBay
April 9, 2010 5:18 am

P.S. I do not deny in any way the importance of all the other scientific issues, also of great interest to me. I am merely saying that, as far as the role of man and co2 in all this is concerned, first things first!

Allen63
April 9, 2010 5:19 am

A very worthwhile read because of its completeness and clear statements.
Regardless of the truth or falsity of AGW in general (AGW may be a component of the Earth’s climate), I don’t “believe” anyone has yet established as fact that we must “do something about it” or seriously risk “perishing”. That for me is the “bottom line” — as the scientifically illiterate politicians discuss cap & trade and other onerous mitigations.
Dr. Meier’s post does not seem to strongly contradict my personal “belief” that AGW is a “non problem”. But, that is not a criticism of his post. In fact, I am happy to read the details of a practicing Climate Scientist’s reasoning.

April 9, 2010 5:20 am

## Dr. Walt Meir:
I use the term “climate forcing” throughout. I’m sure this is familiar to most readers, but for clarity: a climate forcing is essentially anything that changes the earth’s global radiation budget (the net amount of radiative energy coming into the earth) and thus “forces” the earth’s climate to change. ##
Sorry, NO, “climate forcing” does not make any sense to me, and can hardly be familiar to many readers, as neither the AMS-Glossary, nor the IPCC AR4WG1, Annex I, Glossary Editor: A.P.M. Baede (Netherlands), nor the UNFCCC explain a term “climate forcing”.
If you use “CLIMATE” and “forcing” together, you should know what climate means.
<<<IPCC says CLIMATE in a narrow sense is usually defined as the average weather, or more rigorously, as the statistical description in terms of the mean and variability of relevant quantities over a period of time ranging from months to thousands or millions of years.<<<<
Kindly try now to put this and forcing together, e.g. :
___average weather forcing, or
___forcing mean (as the statistical description), or
___forcing variability of relevant quantities,
___ditto, from months to millions of years, etc ,
and it is difficult to know what the talking is all about.

1 … 4 5 6 7 8 … 22