What If There Was No Greenhouse Effect?
by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.

The climate of the Earth is profoundly affected by two competing processes: the greenhouse effect, which acts to warm the lower atmosphere and cool the upper atmosphere, and atmospheric convection (thermals, clouds, precipitation) which does just the opposite: cools the lower atmosphere and warms the upper atmosphere.
To better understand why this happens, it is an instructive thought experiment to ask the question: What if there was no greenhouse effect? In other words, what if there were no infrared absorbers such as water vapor and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?
While we usually only discuss the greenhouse effect in the context of global warming (that is, the theory that adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere will lead to higher temperatures in the lower atmosphere), it turns out that the greenhouse effect has a more fundamental role: there would be no weather on Earth without the greenhouse effect.
First, the big picture: The Earth surface is warmed by sunlight, and the surface and atmosphere together cool by infrared radiation back to outer space. And just as a pot of water warming on the stove will stop warming when the rate of energy gained by the pot from the stove equals the rate of energy loss by the pot to its surroundings, an initially cold Earth would stop warming when the rate at which solar energy is absorbed equals the rate at which infrared energy is lost by the whole Earth-atmosphere system to space.
So, let’s imagine an extremely cold Earth and atmosphere, without any water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane or any other greenhouse gases – and with no surface water to evaporate and create atmospheric water vapor, either. Next, imagine the sun starts to warm the surface of the Earth. As the surface temperature rises, it begins to give off more infrared energy to outer space in response.
That’s the Earth’s surface. But what would happen to the atmosphere at the same time? The cold air in contact with the warming ground would also begin to warm by thermal conduction. Convective air currents would transport this heat upward, gradually warming the atmosphere from the bottom up. Importantly, this ‘dry convection’ will result in a vertical temperature profile that falls off by 9.8 deg. C for every kilometer rise in altitude, which is the so-called ‘adiabatic lapse rate’. This is because rising warm air parcels cool as they expand at the lower air pressures aloft, and the air that sinks in response to all of that rising air must warm at the same rate by compression.
Eventually, the surface and lower atmosphere would warm until the rate at which infrared energy is lost by the Earth’s surface to space would equal the rate at which sunlight is absorbed by the surface, and the whole system would settle into a fairly repeatable day-night cycle of the surface heating (and lower atmosphere convecting) during the day, and the surface cooling (and a shallow layer of air in contact with it) during the night.
The global-average temperature at which this occurs would depend a lot on how reflective the Earth’s surface is to sunlight in our thought experiment. ..it could be anywhere from well below 0 deg F for a partially reflective Earth to about 45 deg. F for a totally black Earth.
So, how is this different from what happens in the real world? Well, notice that what we are left with in this thought experiment is an atmosphere that is heated from below by the ground absorbing sunlight, but the atmosphere has no way of cooling…except in a very shallow layer right next to the ground where it can cool by conduction at night.
Why is this lack of an atmospheric cooling mechanism important? Because in our thought experiment we now have an atmosphere whose upper layers are colder than the surface and lower atmosphere. And what happens when there is a temperature difference in a material? Heat flows by thermal conduction, which would then gradually warm the upper atmosphere to reduce that temperature difference. The process would be slow, because the thermal conductivity of air is quite low. But eventually, the entire atmosphere would reach a constant temperature with height.
Only the surface and a shallow layer of air next to the surface would go through a day-night cycle of heating and cooling. The rest of the atmosphere would be at approximately the same temperature as the average surface temperature. And without a falloff of temperature with height in the atmosphere of at least 10 deg. C per kilometer, all atmospheric convection would stop.
Since it is the convective overturning of the atmosphere that causes most of what we recognize as ‘weather’, most weather activity on Earth would stop, too. Atmospheric convective overturning is what causes clouds and rainfall. In the tropics, it occurs in relatively small and strongly overturning thunderstorm-type weather systems.
At higher latitudes, that convection occurs in much larger but more weakly overturning cloud and precipitation systems associated with low pressure areas.
There would probably still be some horizontal wind flows associated with the fact that the poles would still be cooler than the tropics, and the day-night heating cycle that moves around the Earth each day. But for the most part, most of what we call ‘weather’ would not occur. The same is true even if there was surface water and water vapor…but if we were able to somehow ‘turn off’ the greenhouse effect of water vapor. Eventually, the atmosphere would still become ‘isothermal’, with a roughly constant temperature with height.
Why would this occur? Infrared absorbers like water vapor and carbon dioxide provide an additional heating mechanism for the atmosphere. But at least as important is the fact that, since infrared absorbers are also infrared emitters, the presence of greenhouse gases allow the atmosphere — not just the surface — to cool to outer space.
When you pile all of the layers of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere on top of one another, they form a sort of radiative blanket, heating the lower layers and cooling the upper layers. (For those of you who have heard claims that the greenhouse effect is physically impossible, see my article here. There is a common misconception that the rate at which a layer absorbs IR energy must equal the rate at which it loses IR energy, which in general is not true.)
Without the convective air currents to transport excess heat from the lower atmosphere to the upper atmosphere, the greenhouse effect by itself would make the surface of the Earth unbearably hot, and the upper atmosphere (at altitudes where where jets fly) very much colder than it really is.
Thus, it is the greenhouse effect that continuously de-stabilizes the atmosphere, ‘trying’ to create a temperature profile that the atmosphere cannot sustain, which then causes all different kinds of weather as the atmosphere convectively overturns. Thus, the greenhouse effect is actually required to explain why weather occurs.
This is what makes water such an amazing substance. It cools the Earth’s surface when it evaporates, it warms the upper atmosphere when it re-condenses to form precipitation, it warms the lower atmosphere through the greenhouse effect, and it cools the upper atmosphere by emitting infrared radiation to outer space (also part of the greenhouse effect process). These heating and cooling processes are continuously interacting, with each limiting the influence of the other.
As Dick Lindzen alluded to back in 1990, while everyone seems to understand that the greenhouse effect warms the Earth’s surface, few people are aware of the fact that weather processes greatly limit that warming. And one very real possibility is that the 1 deg. C direct warming effect of doubling our atmospheric CO2 concentration by late in this century will be mitigated by the cooling effects of weather to a value closer to 0.5 deg. C or so (about 1 deg. F.) This is much less than is being predicted by the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change or by NASA’s James Hansen, who believe that weather changes will amplify, rather than reduce, that warming.
In a sense, isn’t every gas a greenhouse gas, able to absorb and retain part of the energy that it receives in the form of heat and radiate the rest?
All right…I’ve got some fodder for weather lectures coming up in a few weeks. Thanks!
I wonder how many parent complaints I’ll get this time?!
Paul (18:58:16) :
Mars certainly has weather and has a very feeble greenhouse.
———–
The weather on Mars is by direct observation. The “feeble” greenhouse effect on Mars is interesting as there is about 30 times as much mass of CO2 over each square meter of Martian surface as there is on Earth.
Now please tell us why we should be worried about a little more CO2 in Earth’s atmosphere especially as we have more than enough water vapor.
Since the moon is about as far away from the sun as earth, and it has no atmosphere, that might be a good place to look for a comparison.
“…the temperature of the Moon can dip down to -153°C during the night. Oh, but you’re going to want to keep some cool weather clothes too, since the temperature of the Moon in the day can rise to 107°C.”
http://www.universetoday.com/guide-to-space/the-moon/temperature-of-the-moon/
So, we see that it is NOT the “greenhouse” effect that “warms” the earth, but that the atmosphere has a cooling effect on daylit surfaces, while the surfaces not lit are kept from losing their heat too fast.
Sore losers. Gore Bore and Nice Guy. Neither dances. Neither chuckles. Eyes swivel but do not connect.
Dr. Spencer;
It’s not a doctoral dissertation; it’s a fine and elemental primer, elegant in its simplicity. I’ve seen the objections in some comments, but I think they miss the point.
”
Jim Steele (15:22:08) :
Roy could you answer a few questions,my physics needs help.
1. What is the “turn-over rate”, the rate of absorption of infra-red vs emission for a given molecule of H20 or CO2? Would it be more correct to think that added GH gasses add more layers that absorb and emit thus slowing down the rate of cooling vs “trapping heat”?
2. How does the cooling rate via absorbing and emitting heat waves when there is no convection, compare to a rate of cooling when there is convection? Does extra CO2 resulting in heating by absorbing heat waves, cause increased convection and that increased convection allows heat to more quickly escape into the stratosphere and to some degree offset heating by absorption? Are there papers that researched this?
3. When a CO2 molecule that has absorbed infra-red, then collides with say an O2 molecule, transferring some kinetic energy, will the CO2 still emit the same wavelength it absorbed, or a different wavelength
”
The ‘turnover rate’ for a ghg is going to be equal when the continuum temperature and the gas temperature are the same. If the gas is hotter, you’ll get emission lines instead of absorption lines.
probably not. the layers are an approximation anyway. If you have a parcel of gas with a higher concentration, you will have greater absorption and greater emission for its temperature. Note the absorption isn’t really dependent on the temperature while the emissions are.
a decrease in radiative heat transfer results in an increase in temperature differential and an increase in temperature differential is going to increase the rates of heat transfer via convection and conduction. The decrease in radiative transfer from more ghgs does occur but since increasing ghg concentrations will increase emissivity it’s not purely blocking. both effects must be taken into account. Also, co2 blocking really only changes things in clear sky conditions because clouds block much more.
a co2 or ghg molecule will absorb a photon (or can absorb a photon) and it can emit the same wavelength or it can emit a different wavelength photon or photons or it can convey that energy to another molecule, such as O2. For emissions, the same thing happens. One winds up with LTE, local thermodynamic equilibrium where all molecules in the gas sample in a small area have the same temperature. That temperature fills energy states according to the boltzman distribution which is what establishes the blackbody distribution curve for a particular frequency.
So what was earth’s climate like 200,000 years ago, Dr Spencer? Oh, that’s right, God hadn’t created it yet…
http://theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony2.php
So, all the heat of the atmosphere is radiated away by H2O and CO2, and none of it by molecular N or O?
I build my house at 200 metres elevation and I never have to wear a coat even at night at 60 degrees latitude.
That CO2 is one potent cooler!
Paul (19:34:32) :
wayne (18:51:41) :
Good question about the CO2 and the answer is not so straight forward. Although there are about the same number of molecules of CO2 above any sq meter on Mars as on Earth, they are not nearly as effective as a greenhouse gas because the total atmospheric pressure is much lower.
Yes, and Venus has 90 atmospheres which is where CO2 driving
temperature came from. That, along with the Snowball Earth
hypothesis has been driving this train wreck.
If the rotation of the Earth does not affect the atmosphere, why are there trade winds? And if wind is not a transfer/transmisson of energy, then what is it? Mixing, chaos, ebb and flow — got to have some effect.
I mean, I like black boxes and over-simplified models as much as anyone. But if the horse is missing a leg, it can’t run.
E pur si muove.
At the risk of making a fool of myself again, I need to explain what I meant when I asked about the effects of oceans. Imagine that there are oceans on this planet, but that they have a layer of impermeable saran wrap on top that prevents evaporation. The differential heating of the oceans and the heat-retentive properties of water would result in air circulation: one does not need to consider the evaporative tendencies of water in this model, in the spirit of Dr. Spencer’ thought experiment. I guess I cannot quite imagine the value of a theoretical model which is so unlike the earth, given the vast amounts of H2O on our planet that play both primary and differing roles (according to state and location) in determining climate. Even without water, does Dr. Spencer’s model assume that the entire substrate of the earth is homogenous, with no hills or elevations or differing properties for absorbing and reflecting heat? As Robert of Ottawa points out above, Dr. Spencer is having fun with a spherical planet.
One more time. “Friends don’t let friends do Wikipedia.”
A Wikipedia quote causes the reader who is interested in the subject matter any number of hours of additional research. Just say no to Wikipedia references.
Five sources of confusion for me. I’ll refer only to the lead article by Roy, not including posts.
1. There is mixed use of statics and dynamics. e.g. should not “an initially cold Earth would stop warming when the rate at which solar energy is absorbed equals the rate at which infrared energy is lost”. Should this not read about “total energy” rather than “rate”?
2. What concept of temperature is used? Temperature is physically first related to motion at the atomic scale, so as the atoms/molecules became more dilute, a thermometer placed in them would record a different result.
3. Following from 2, might the thought experiment please be continued to an altitude of say 700 km above Earth, showing how lapse rates and re-rediation etc. produce the standard curve to the top of the thermosphere?
4. “infrared absorbers are also infrared emitters” – IIRC, there is an energy change in this process. i.e emissions are less energetic and the surplus energy shows up as heat. Is this significant? The magnitude varies via quantum physics for different substances.
5. “This is because rising warm air parcels cool as they expand at the lower air pressures aloft, and the air that sinks in response to all of that rising air must warm at the same rate by compression”. Is this a zero sum game, or do you include, for example, frictional effects?
Off topic
2009’s Review of Hysterical Cartoons about Climate Hysteria
http://www.climatechangefraud.com/humor/5967-2009s-hysterical-cartoons-about-climate-hysteria
Update to Solaemon’s Spotless Days Page
http://users.telenet.be/j.janssens/Spotless/Spotless.html
Frost warning for much of Florida tonight.
per the Weather Channel
ginckgo (21:08:23) :
You obviously understand nothing about epistimology, cosmology, theology or science. When you’ve finally evolved a brain, come back and we’ll discuss the matter of the age of the universe and the nature of reality. In the mean time, however, see if you can prove that the universe, in it’s entirety, was not created six and a half minutes before you read this. Ignore the time stamp. The universe was created that way. Go ponder.
John J. (19:24:10) :
No weather without so-called greenhouse gases? Jupiter is mostly hydrogen and helium and yet the Great Red Spot has persisted for centuries.
And how is it possible that the internal temperature of Jupiter with no CO2 is greater than the surface of Venus? I’ve asked this question to a couple of professors at my local university and never gotten a reply.
ShrNfr (19:42:03) :
@John J. Jupiter emits more energy than it receives in solar radiation. One therefore is drawn to the conclusion that there is something going on deep in the core of the planet.
Actually, I heard long ago in college it is simple compression. There is great gravity, it would like to compress all those gas molecules down, and as they are compressed they give off their heat. IIRC Jupiter emits about 1.6 times the energy it gets from the Sun.
And the Great Red Spot is shrinking. There is also now the Little Red Spot, which may grow to be the larger one. Click on the link, read about some Climate Change on Jupiter!
Hmmph. Frost in Florida. The Weather Channel keeps talking about some blizzard in New England. No snow here on the Connecticut Western Shore. Climate: it’s all local.
“there would be no weather on Earth without the greenhouse effect.”
OM[snip]G is that a stupid statement. I really wish Spencer would stop trying to help.
Without the greenhouse effect sunlight would still warm the ground. The atmosphere in contact with this ground would be warmed. The equators would still be warmer than the poles, leading to a difference in air pressure. Heated water would still evaporate over the seas lowering air pressure there. That moisture would still condense into rain.
All the effects would cause wind, rain, clouds, snow, and all the other things we call weather.
An interesting article to read and it works as a thought experiment. I had to keep kicking myself to get rid of the instinctive temperature gradient I expect between the hot earth surface and the cold of space.
A bit of a leap from a thought experiment to putting out a figure to it though:
“And one very real possibility is that the 1 deg. C direct warming effect of doubling our atmospheric CO2 concentration by late in this century will be mitigated by the cooling effects of weather to a value closer to 0.5 deg. C or so (about 1 deg. F.)”
Is there any math or whatever leading to the 0.5 C mitigation? I’d hope it’s not a figure plucked out of the air*.
Since 1900 the surface temperature has increased by – give or take a bit and an argument – just under 1 C. If a temperature increase of this order causes increased weather creating negative feedback would it show up in weather records of the twentieth century – perhaps a piece of research would show if there’s observable evidence?
* sorry for the weak pun
bob (14:18:37) :
“Why would this occur? Infrared absorbers like water vapor and carbon dioxide provide an additional heating mechanism for the atmosphere. But at least as important is the fact that, since infrared absorbers are also infrared emitters, the presence of greenhouse gases allow the atmosphere — not just the surface — to cool to outer space.”
You don’t need the greenhouse gases to cool the atmosphere, oxygen and nitrogen are infared emitters according to the Planck black body radiation effect.
No they aren’t, they can only emit via the same spectral lines as their absorption spectrum.
Oxygen is not at all a weak greenhouse gas as it does not absorb infared radiation, as the bonds in the oxygen atom are of too high an energy to be excited by the low energy of infared.
Again not true as the O2 Raman spectra show us, it’s not the energy that’s the factor but the absence of a dipole in a homonuclear diatomic!
Where is Joel Shore these days? LOL
[Probably bundled up by the fire]
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
Inks,
Kick yourself again. The earth isn’t some uniform flat plain. Different surfaces absorb light with differing efficiencies. Light sand absorbing less than dark rock. Water absorbs differently than land. Sides of mountains facing sunward more than those facing away. Equator more than poles. The earth rotates. Many other factors.
“but the atmosphere has no way of cooling”
This is another false claim by Spencer.
Substances can radiate frequencies for which they are transparent. Glass is transparent to red light yet if you heat it enough it will radiate light at that frequency. So the atmosphere without GHG will continue radiate heat to space.
There is absolutely no way that if you eliminated the ability of all gases on earth to act as greenhouse gases that it would eliminate weather. In fact, GHG contribute next to nothing with regards to causing wind, rain, snow, etc.
If all gases were transparent to infrared we could just move the earth closer to the sun to achieve a planet with liquid seas, and plenty of weather.
I think I understand now why Spencer is a creationist. He’s not very good at understanding models and processes.
I’m a AWG skeptic. This article is just bad science.
All gases absorb heat. It is a rule. Like all liberals think they are smart. But only one of these is true.