Guardian Headline – Low targets, goals dropped: Copenhagen ends in failure

When the Guardian, that champion of everything “green” says it, you know it was a failure.

Click for the story at the Guardian UK

Excerpt:

The UN climate summit reached a weak outline of a global agreement last night in Copenhagen, falling far short of what Britain and many poor countries were seeking and leaving months of tough negotiations to come.

After eight draft texts and all-day talks between 115 world leaders, it was left to Barack Obama and Wen Jiabao, the Chinese premier, to broker a political agreement. The so-called Copenhagen accord “recognises” the scientific case for keeping temperature rises to no more than 2C but did not contain commitments to emissions reductions to achieve that goal.

American officials spun the deal as a “meaningful agreement”, but even Obama said: “This progress is not enough.”

“We have come a long way, but we have much further to go,” he added.

The deal was brokered between China, South Africa, India, Brazil and the US, but late last night it was still unclear whether it would be adopted by all 192 countries in the full plenary session.

The agreement aims to provide $30bn in funding for poor countries to adapt to climate change from next year to 2012, and $100bn a year after 2020.

But it disappointed African and other vulnerable countries who had been holding out for far deeper emission cuts to hold the global temperature rise to 1.5C this century. As widely expected, all references to 1.5C in previous drafts were removed at the last minute, but more surprisingly, the earlier 2050 goal of reducing global CO2 emissions by 80% was also dropped.

The agreement also set up a forestry deal which is hoped would significantly reduce deforestation in return for cash. It lacked the kind of independent verification of emission reductions by developing countries that the US and others demanded.

Obama hinted that China was to blame for the lack of a substantial deal. In a press conference he condemned the insistence of some countries to look backwards to previous environmental agreements. He said developing countries should be “getting out of that mindset, and moving towards the position where everybody recognises that we all need to move together”.

Read entire story at the Guardian here

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Now compare what the Guardian has written, to what Obama says:

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My summary of the Copenhagen Climate Conference is just a bit less wordy.

Click

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364 thoughts on “Guardian Headline – Low targets, goals dropped: Copenhagen ends in failure

  1. I was just thinking about Nelson, with all the snow in Copenhagen and Obami rushing back to Washington before the snow storm. So , maybe if I had a couple of trees in my front yard I could be paid , like , a couple hundred thousand for not cutting them down. Let’s hear it for the climate summit!

    Brent in Calgary

  2. “Collapse at Copenhagen”

    Playing at a theater near you.

    Review: A sterling example of an inconvenient truth.

  3. So, there’s nothing even close to binding limits on emissions, and no setup for emissions reduction verification, but we’ve agreed to send the developing world billions of dollars (more) a year? Because there’s been no fraud already by China or other countries on money for emissions reductions or carbon offsets? Will the US borrow money from China to give money to…China?

  4. “But it disappointed African and other vulnerable countries who had been holding out for far deeper emission cuts to hold the global temperature rise to 1.5C this century.”

    It always fascinates me to see that at least the writer believes and it is implied that many in Africa believes we can actually control the global temperatures. Has anyone really thought it through? Even if the AGW theory is correct(I don’t believe it to be) how does man go about preventing CO2 emissions without significant and radical changes not only to our economic world and lifestyles but even the ecological world we live in. How is CO2 emission reductions practically applied? Has anyone logically expressed how this is to occur without wiping out most of the human race?

  5. Can Obama get anything done? Chicago Olympic disaster, the Asia trip. COP15…

    Oh yeah I forgot… he was able to deploy more troops in Afghanistan.

  6. We may be aware that the summit was a failure, but that isn’t what is being said in the msm. I thought the video just shown on CNN was indicative. Robert Gibbs trying in vain to get “his guys” (CNN etc) admitted to no avail in the face of Chinese strong arming. Gibbs said something along the lines of; “either my guys get in, or we’re leaving the meeting.” Apparently, no US media was admitted, and the meeting went ahead anyway… More empty threats that the Chinese wisely ignore. Still being heralded as a “breakthrough” due to Obama’s visit.

    What a farce.

  7. Any money spent on lowering CO2 emission is a waste, in my opinion. So, let’s not celebrate this “failure” as a good thing. Sure, we the skeptics, want less toxic gas emission and super efficient vehicles and power plants just like everybody else but we say no to carbon credits and cap and trade because it’s a gigantic scam.

  8. As they used to say on our Air Force efficiency evaluations –

    “Sets low goals and fails to achieve them.”

  9. I should have mentioned that Gibbs was trying to get the US press in for a photo of Hu Jintao meeting with Obama earlier today.

  10. Fantastic news.

    This result is typically European. In the end, the global community organizers are an ad hoc, brittle coalition.

    Hard to comprehend that the $100 Billion offered by the U.S. was not enough to do a deal.

    Obama could not fund the climate government despite offering $100 Billion.

    What has our world come to?

    Since there is $100 Billion in play, would that it be spent on bonafide school construction and bona fide infrastructure repair in the U.S.of A.

    It is a shame that 195 governments gathered in one place for two weeks and failed to resolve border disputes, civil wars, human rights violations, and the endless tragedy of refugee camp suffering.

    What a wasted opportunity!

    As for the climate, may God bless the entire globe with favorable weather for food, recreation, and beauty.

  11. Well, darn! It was pretty much a dismal failure.

    I was hoping for a complete dismal failure, but I guess it wasn’t quite as bad as we thought.

  12. The Jay Leno show tonight even took a shot at the AGWers. Quite funny.

    I’m beginning to think Obama is really a skeptic. He could have been much more forceful in his speech. Maybe he has looked into the leaks and finds them troublesome. Clearly, for political reasons he can’t outwardly look skeptical, but I think he has been influenced.

    Thank you Mr. ClimateGate wherever you are.!

  13. Thank you Al Gore for making the weather in Denmark so delightful. Thank you Obama for doing what you do so well – failing.

  14. The absolute scientific ignorance and gullibility of Western leaders is only matched by the sheer obstinate stupidity of journalists. Apparently in both industries it is a survival characteristic. Not so much for the rest of us.

  15. Funny, I just heard a live performance of Handel’s Messiah.

    The Hallelulia Chorus was being played, LIVE..chorus and orchestra.

    NOW I KNOW WHAT THEY WERE SINGING ABOUT!

  16. From the Guardian:

    “But he [Obama] said he would not be staying for the final vote because of weather constraints in Washington.”

    From the DC NWS Broadcast:

    … Record breaking December snowfall for Baltimore-Washington
    metropolitan areas bringing hazardous winter weather to the region
    overnight and Saturday…

    Total storm snowfall totals of 1 to 2 feet are forecast to occur
    in the Baltimore-Washington metropolitan areas by dawn Sunday… which
    should eclipse the December records for both cities. The record
    December snowfall for Washington is 12.0 inches on 18-19 December
    1932… and for Baltimore to record is 14.1 inches on 12-13 December 1960.

    “Weather constraints”……heh heh.

    I’m sorry but this is too…..

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. LOL LMAO ROLF

    Chris
    Norfolk, VA, USA

  17. …recognizing the scientific view that the increase in global temperature below 2 degrees…

    …deep cuts in global emissions are required according to science, and as documented by the IPCC Fourth Assessment report…

    Where’s the escape clause? What if the science is not settled?

  18. Ditto your HA HA!

    And may I add my heartiest and most heartfelt BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAH!

    Now I’ll just settle back and wait happily for the footage of the DC blizzard and The One’s trying to dodge ithatinconvenience.

    Sweet.

  19. “Climate change skepticism in action”

    I guess we really couldn’t have asked for much more for Christmas… everyone say thank you Santa Clause!

  20. I sense that the web that was weaved by all the intents to deceive is going to get a baseball pitched through it. Poor morons that think you can fool all the people all the time….

  21. Cool, pun intended… now, if we can just have time to get the data corrected, which will show a USA, as well as a global temperature decline since at least 1934, we will continue to be well within the 2 degree limit.

    The scary thought is, what will they now use to collect the trillions for the world global socialist experiment? The climate, (warming, or cooling, or holding fast), set aside, the demand for the trillions to prop up the worlds failing socialist nations, is never going to go away! Maybe back to the 70s cooling?
    Stephen

  22. As D. King I decree:

    The temperature shall not rise more than 2C.
    As I have said it, so it shall be!
    King Canute, I am laughing at thee.

  23. I thought that Obama’s voice was strained and labored especially at the start of the video and in an earlier audio statement he made when he first arrived. The Australian press are cynical, this is what Annabel Crabbe said on the ABC website.

    “After a week of concerted private scrimmage among the international delegations, the one bright spot Mr Rudd could nominate yesterday was that Australia had successfully divested itself of $120 million, to be put towards the elimination of land clearing in other countries.”

    Ahh, $120m lighter, now that feels better !

    This 2degree temperature limit is the height of absurdity, has any journalist asked if the temperature stabilisation experiment has ever been run,? and with what results?.
    If there are journalists reading these comments, please question the information that is supplied and ask some basic science questions. You will get opposing answers ; just take it quietly and use common sense. You never know you may go down in history as a famous journalist who exposed Climategate, as famous as those who exposed Watergate, only this time this is a global scandal.

  24. We have been watching the coverage here in Sweden for the last two weeks on SVT and on the webcast. Around 4am they suspended the meeting for a few minutes. It is now 445am it looks like they are going to resume again.

    During the break SVT had a few interviews. One was with a leader of some Swedish group that has been observing the meetings. He said the agreement that they have been talking about would raise temps to 5.8 C for awhile and then to 5.9 C but he is from a warmist group so who knows…

    Love how in the beginning the developed countries offered 2 C, the third world argued for 1.5 degrees and it looks like they have compromised with 3+ C. How’s that work? I thought they all believed in the settled science?

  25. This may interest: AMSR-E sea ice coverage shows more robust ice cover for Dec 18 2009 than any previous year Dec 18 (since 2002). Archangel (Russia) is iced in, and Alaska is growing good ice toward its southern peninsula. We’re in for an excellent Arctic ice cap this winter, looks like.

  26. Now established by accord: the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC).
    Would it have been so hard, and more applicable, for them to establish the UN Framework Understanding on Climate Change Scientists Undoing Science (UNFUCCSUS)?

  27. I am confused, Gore said that this is a catastrophe and we must act now. Do these politicians have families? I Know Obama has a couple of children, Wouldn’t he do anything to save his little Malia? I mean wouldn’t he take an initiative to save the world….unless this stuff is all made up and not really that important or something

  28. Darn! Now we’re all going to fry because Al Gore won’t get a chance to turn the heat down with his billion dollar thermostat.

  29. Obama flew in on the last day to save Copenhagen. He was the ace up the sleeve. An ace didn’t give them a win.

  30. Copenhagen in snow. Record snow forecast this weekend in Eastern US too. Nature is telling everyone global warming isn’t happening.

  31. Lord Monckton was spot-on some time back, when he predicted EXACTLY this outcome at COP15:
    There would end up being an ”agreement” before it broke up (how could all these leaders show up and admit to the world that their ”one world government” effort failed); but the agreement would be toothless and meaningless.

    Bravo. . . .

  32. The Grauniad is just saying that to make feel better -but, its working.

    Don’t know how Obama, and, come the mid-term elections, the Donks as a whole, are going to explain to the American people their 20-year “commitment” for $100 billion a year (is that $2 trillion?) in bribes to the ChiComs to get this “nonbinding treaty” signed.

  33. Developing countries had planed on getting multi $billion christmas presents in perputuity and no restrictions. What a disapointment. Santa Borat can not deliever the American treasury to them as he is not the emperor only the president.

    These are interesting times!

  34. The BBC are asking for your opinion, however, they filter on many words like hoax etc. The thought police are trying to ensure that comments remain positive.

    “Welcome to duloc such a perfect town here we have some rules, let us lay them down, don’t make waves, stay in line, and we’ll get along fine, duloc is a perfect place”

    And the UK used to allow free speech! Now it is turning positively FASCIST.

  35. “recognises” the scientific case for keeping temperature rises to no more than 2C but did not contain commitments to emissions reductions to achieve that goal.

    Shouldn’t be hard to do as the global temperature is going down on its own.

  36. Why have none of our leaders talked about what protections would be put in place to ensure that any of the money they give to other countries would be used for the purpose intended.

    Also government transparency seems totally absent and bureaucracy seems to be out of control

  37. BTW what is up with RC? I was wanting to see if they were dancing with delight over the 2C COP Accord but I can´t load the web page. Instead I get the following message:

    ¨502 Bad Gateway¨

    Another early Xmas present?

  38. George Monbiot is crying the blues. He writes:

    This was the chaotic, disastrous denouement of a chaotic and disastrous summit. The event has been attended by historic levels of incompetence. Delegates arriving from the tropics spent 10 hours queueing in sub-zero temperatures without shelter, food or drink, let alone any explanation or announcement, before being turned away. Some people fainted from exposure; it’s surprising that no one died.

    Triple irony:
    People there to complain about warming faint from exposure to the cold.
    One of the most socialist nations of Europe fails terribly at organization.
    An organiztion, the IPCC, that wishes to control the climate shows that it is incompetent to even run a meeting on the climate.

  39. Happily, the abject shallowness of politicians worldwide is being exposed. How interesting to see fraud exposed then the perps try to hide their fraud, quickly burying themselves deeper by the second. To wit: AlGore and MichaelMann (in today’s Washington Post). The reactions in the warmist community are entirely humorous, and good quality humor at that.

  40. Is Obama unaware of the federal grant money used here?

    It would be very interesting to check the federal ethics and data sharing violations here.

    Theoretically speaking, of course.

    PS: “Britain and many poor countries”
    sorry, there…….

  41. Well that damn George Bush ruined our food for oil scam. What do you expect us to do? Get a job like the common rif-raf? Oh the humanity, I need my smelling salts.

  42. King Canute (Obama) eloquently telling the sun not to make the 2 degrees warmer – a snowballs chance in hell!

  43. “It’s working. It’s working” Don’t want to sink to the levels of inerudition of the Warmenistas.

  44. King Canute (Obama) eloquently telling the sun not to make the earth 2 degrees warmer – a snowballs chance in hell!

  45. The latest casualty of climategate. And by far the most important.
    This is truly great news.
    But it is just a first major step. It is not the beginning of the end of AGW madness. But it is the end of the beginning.
    Now to finish helping AGW implode, and move on to a rational set of enviro and energy policies.

  46. Wahahahey, now we just need to get rid of those who want to monitor our lives and have us live on a ration card.

  47. Sorry, but Copenhagen was a complete success. In my view, the Chinese looked at how the data has been fudged, how the review process has been scuttled, and how the enviro commies wanted to shackle China with restrictions that would have seriously contained their booming economy. It would also have crippled the US economy had we gone along with it, and we’d never be able to pay off the huge debt owed the Chinese. Either way it went, it wasn’t good for the Chinese.

    So they said “Nyet” after conferring with their Russian neighbors, who have energy-exportion ambitions of their own and suspicions about the “science” too. China deflected criticism by saying they would not give up their national sovereignty. Now we can see if the increase in CO2 will be able to offset the cooling trend we’re going through with this deep solar minimum. However, if this deep solar minim continues, I’m willing to bet that next year’s summit in Mexico City will be centered on how to tax the industrial nations for reparations caused by climate cooling. Face it, “climate change” cuts both ways for them, and short memories will only give them another reason to bilk the West.

    They should be happy to have increased foodstuff production and additional greening of the planet caused by anthropogenic CO2. However, their objective was never to improve the environment or get off their lazy a$$es and work. That would just be too difficult. Their ulterior motive has failed, which becomes a success for all of us. And if it puts them back to work, it’s good for them, too.

  48. If this report is close to correct, this is the best we could hope for and a damn site better than the 80/2050 nonsense as was earlier announced.

    Alas, the greens and other climate shysters will keep repeating Kyoto and Copenhagen until the glaciers advance across North America. It sure as heck ain’t over, but this round was “won” or at least a draw. I’ve not see much media today, but from the whining of the Canadian Greens it seems our PM and our Environment minister did us well by laying low and not participating too much in in this circus.

    But over all .. ☺ ☺ ☺ ☺

    Anthony, it is sites like this that keep the pressure on; that bring good information to the surface and prevent suppression of the truth.

    Good job sir. Thank you!

  49. Wow…was it me or was Obama disappointed by the lack of progress on Climate Change or the lack of teleprompters?!?!?!

    He sure looked mediocre…or depressed, can’t tell which. He definitely has programmed his brain to seek the usual teleprompter targets while he speaks.

    I think we got off easy this round. Whew…

    3rd party in 2010 please! No more lawyers OK? We need some Joe Schmoes…

  50. I’d like to feel relieved, but I can’t escape the notion that these folks are a nightmare combination of Freddy Krueger, Michael from”Halloween”, Jason from “Friday the 13th”, and the “Terminator” all rolled into one. No matter how many times you think they’ve finally been stopped, they keep rising zombie like from the flaming ruins and resuming the chase. They’ve all probably booked their reservations for next years confab at whatever garden spot they have picked out and are angling to make sure that get a parking spot at the airport for their Gulfstream, and one of the armored limos, Mexico can be a dangerous place.

  51. Furthermore, I should have said; Wen Jiabao. Not Hu Jintao. …

    I’m off to bed. Comforted that absolutely nothing has changed except the debt.

  52. Amen Halleluyah!

    And of course, the question becomes… Now that the political leaders have failed, is the door towards honest skepticism of the accepted “conclusions” of the Polito-scientific establishment a little more open?

    Can what we all know to be propaganda finally be exposed for the sack of lies that it is?

    I think the return to rationality is a war being waged primarily here in the States. If cap and trade also fails here, and China continues to not play ball (THANK YOU CHINA, the free market of the world owes you a debt, figuratively and literally), the enviro-political-pseudo-science whackos will have nowhere left to turn but inward towards self-satisfaction and a “run-for-the-hills” self-preservation tactic. I predict we’ll get articles about true-believers selling all their posessions to build earthen homes in the Rockies with decades of food stores, much as we heard about before Y2K. It should be a very humorous year for the skeptics in 2010.

    Merry Christmas, Happy New Year everyone.

  53. Caught between a ‘Weather is not Climate blizzard’ and a ClimateGate Road Hazard hard place.
    The Devil was surely in the details, and Hugo claimed to smell sulphur.

  54. The house of cards that manmade global warming “science” is now and always was is collapsing. The good guys have won one!!!

  55. Yes, an early Xmas gift, the left and the climate activists have lost bigtime, and we have reclaimed the upper ground now. Copenhagen was a joke frm the get go, and Palin was right: the skinny black dude should have boycotted the talks. Dummy!

  56. It’s impossible to overstate just what an epic failure this is for transnational leftism; and right out in the open too, where nobody could miss it. These things don’t ordinarily happen with such suddenness and drama.

    The first sentence in the article is absolutely right: If The Guardian is calling it a failure, then it must be a legendary crackup indeed. I think even the MsM is starting to smell blood in the water. They seem to be getting a little kick out of trashing Obama, the UN, and the Greenies. Perhaps the media is about to throw the political mandarins under the bus. Won’t that be something to see.

  57. The Guardian calls it a failure..?

    Careful..

    Ever heard of animals pretending to be dead ?

    According to Paul Watson over at PrisonPlanet.com

    Obama and other world leaders have agreed to a “Global Transaction Tax”

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/final-copenhagen-text-includes-global-transaction-tax.html

    This means an average of $3000 in extra tax on each American family & non all of it will go to the UN.

    Lord Monckton has also pointed this out, so I am convinced of its veracity.

    Aqua Fyre

  58. yes yes yes yes yes!!!!! See preventing a 2 C rise might be actually measureable rather than commit to what might be a CO2 prevention dead end.

  59. symonsezwlky (18:56:24) :

    Lucky there were no equivalents like the Goreacle around in the 1970’s. Another equivalent of the inconvenient truth movie for cooling plus carbon credits to prevent an ice age.

  60. So, no one is going to do anything about the carbon, not that I want them to, but we taxpayers are going to fork over 10s of billions of dollars?

  61. “Early Christmas present” ????
    Ya think giving $30×10^9 of our tax dollars to 3rd world tin-pot dictators to squander is a Christmas present.
    NO THANKS!

  62. I would like to thank all you guys who worked so hard to save your and my country from the brink of tyrannical disaster. You have no idea what a difference you made since Climategate first broke. You have no idea how many lurking bodies have seen this site, clinging to the best amateur scientific analysis on the planet, even though it is just your hobby. Hobbes cannot be overrated as they require a personal passion for the subject.

    The information in massive volumes is now circulating all over cyberspace which is all over the planet. Give yourselves a pat on the back for a job well done. That job you did is worth far more than money can buy. You’ll have a good bit of a rest to recharge your batteries, I know I need a pretty decent break. Get back to pounding those keys when you feel good and ready again, always keep an open mind, and your mind active. Learning new things just feels good.

    Thank You,
    Michael

  63. Y’know, this isn’t a bad result all things considered. I’m not against insurance policies. . .I just don’t want to pay unreasonable prices for them. This Term Insurance can be terminated before it gets too costly, if further research and observable facts seem to make that advisable.

  64. Am I the only one cheering the fact that Obama could not “get er done”?!?!?!?!?!?!? By the way, I am a registered Democrat for hire dedicated to seeing that Sitting Eagle is NOT re-elected!

  65. Tom in Texas (20:39:33) :

    “Obama brokers a climate deal, doesn’t satisfy all”

    Just the skeptics.

    Nice :-)

  66. From the Telegraph:

    ” ‘Most of the snow is falling in East Anglia, Essex and Kent – and will continue to do so,’ she said.”

    East Anglia????

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Chris
    Norfolk (not East Anglia) VA, USA

  67. The agreement aims to provide $30bn in funding for poor countries to adapt to climate change from next year to 2012, and $100bn a year after 2020.
    DO YOU REALY BELEVE THIS MONEY( EVERY CENT) WILL BE USED TO ADATPT TO CLIMATE CHANGE??.i For one dont i bet the the persons at the top get their cut.And the poor persons in the street see $nil .

  68. Tilo Reber (20:45:49) :

    Triple irony:
    People there to complain about warming faint from exposure to the cold.
    One of the most socialist nations of Europe fails terribly at organization.
    An organiztion, the IPCC, that wishes to control the climate shows that it is incompetent to even run a meeting on the climate.

    Indeed. The irony is so rich it has to be fattening.

  69. As I mentioned previously, they agreed to disagree.

    How can this ‘historic’ agreement be a first step? I thought Kyoto was the first step; Copenhagen was supposed to build on it. The next couple years should prove interesting, as they try to get something in place with which to replace Kyoto before it expires in 2012.

    Wait!
    That’s it!
    The Mayans weren’t predicting the end of Earth or mankind. They were predicting the end of the Kyoto accord in 2012 long before there was a green, save the planet, movement.

  70. I saw nothing posted at RC all day….but did see a tumblweed roll by….

    Now they claim to be upgrading software and are down. Hmmmmm…….that’s certainly inconvenient.

  71. “The scary thought is, what will they now use to collect the trillions for the world global socialist experiment? The climate, (warming, or cooling, or holding fast), set aside, the demand for the trillions to prop up the worlds failing socialist nations, is never going to go away! ”

    This is the real issue.

    The problem is the dictators will stash the cash for themselves as the UN is even more corrupt than the US Government, and the little people will go on hurting as always.

    Of course everyone knew that man caused warming was BS. the climate is much more complex than anyone has come close to modeling. Of course the data is basically useless as Anthony and others have shown.

    All in all – COP15 – was a very costly flop. charade, dog&pony show.

  72. The irony continues…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8421879.stm

    “Washington DC is preparing to be hit by what could be its worst winter storm since the capital was covered in 27in (68cm) of snow in 2003.”

    Apparently Obama did not stay for the end of COP15 because of the cold snowy stormy weather situation expected in DC!!!!

    You really have to laugh at these fools.

  73. Mark.R (22:08:32) :

    They never cared about feeding and saving the poor nations before… why would they care now?

  74. Copenhagen ends in failure…

    Nah, it was a great, great success. The skeptics side always wins.

    “Al..baby”, when’s the debate?

  75. It’s 2.30 am and dejection is palpable in the halls of Copenhagen’s Bella Centre, home to the last two week’s climate talks. Obama has left; there’s another draft deal being passed around; Gordon Brown says he’s happy; the G77 block of poor nations is crying bloody murder; delegates are leaving in droves, looking tired and depressed. The sense, generally, is that the last two years have been a waste of time.

    If you listen really hard you can hear the lamentations of their women . . .

  76. Doug (21:36:02) :

    Cheer, by all means. Just remember that we are upping our tab with them in order to pay for this. You have to admire the way China has played the situation, in the sense one would admire an opponent’s southpaw, getting the US to dig a deeper hole all the while committing to economic restrictions that limit the ways the debt can be paid back. Really think they are worried about getting paid back? I don’t. The damage done to the US Gov’s credibility if there are defaults on debt would curtail the ability to spend on many things, and then what? We all learn how to ask if you would like fries with that in Chinese?

  77. Lost in summer, morning, winter, travel very far,
    Lost in musing circumstances, that’s just where you are.

    Yesterday a morning came, a smile upon your face.
    Caesar’s palace, morning glory, silly human race,
    On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place,
    If the summer change to winter, yours is no,
    Yours is no disgrace.
    Yours is no disgrace.
    Yours is no disgrace.

  78. kmye (19:09:38) :

    Good God! I certainly hope not! For reasons outlined in my other post. Is China one of the ‘developing’ nations? I thought that surely they would be off of that list by now?!

  79. Obama pulls off a “coup d’Etat against the UN” !

    This was supposed to be the conclusion of a two year process – but evidently many are far from happy with the last minute facing saving agreement – http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8421935.stm

    Richard Black was scathing of it last night on Radio 4, here is what he says now:

    ===============

    BBC News environment correspondent
    President Obama may have a deal with Brazil, China, India and South Africa – but it is not at all clear that he has a deal with anyone else.

    While the White House was announcing the agreement, most other delegations had not even seen it.

    This has clearly annoyed a number of countries who, when the agreement document, expressed their distaste in vigorous language – a “coup d’Etat against the UN”.

    With no firm target for limiting the global temperature rise, no commitment to a legal treaty and no target year for peaking emissions, countries vulnerable to climate impacts are pointing out this “deal” does not guarantee the temperature targets they need.

    ================

    We are governed by idiots, whose only ability is to spend money they don’t have. http://www.usdebtclock.org

  80. FEED THE WORLD

    It is a travesty that we have lost sight of this….

    Merry Christmas

    [REPLY – Billions for food. But not one red cent for tribute!]

  81. delegates are leaving in droves, looking tired and depressed

    Tired from the fun packed week they just had at $1000.00 a night hotels with all the amenities of a conference (everything, etc….) that wore them out, depressed because it’s over and they have to go back to their stinking lives.

  82. Couldn’t agree with you more Michael. I have only really started to study weather in the last eighteen months but have probably learnt more that when I was at school. I was one that had given up my passport and wasn’t going to fly anywhere but the more I have read and learnt has changed that.

    THank you for a great website

  83. Just one thing I noticed. There was more effort and urgency when Hilary Clinton turned up and seemed to push far harder. Did the democrats pick the wrong person to lead them.
    Obama has run away as he would freeze waiting for the group photo that normally is taken at these events

  84. The show isn’t over until Fat Al sings “Its over” like he did when he decided he really didn’t want to be president.

  85. all this does is funnel money pointlessly from the US (primarily) to countries run by dictators, military gangs and terrorists. This isn’t something to be celebrating…Copenhagen may have “failed” but it certainly didn’t fail to move us closer to the end of freedom in the west.

  86. “Obama flew in on the last day to save Copenhagen. He was the ace up the sleeve. An ace didn’t give them a win.”

    An uproar of voices was coming from the farmhouse. They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress. There were shoutings, bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared to be that Napoleon and Mr. Pilkington had each played an ace of spades simultaneously.

    Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

  87. I find these word comforting on most similar occasions.

    Dr. Johnson (1709 – 1784), supplied these lines (and two more) for ‘The Traveller’ by Oliver Goldsmith

    ‘How small, of all that human hearts endure,
    That part which laws or kings can cause or cure!’

  88. I was about to comment on Arctic Ice but TokyoBoy said it before me so I’ll say this. What a thoughtful comment by Dane Skold! What I love about this blog is the High calibre company I find myself in: Paul Vaughan, Lucy Skywalker, Tallman, Pamela Gray and Anna V, Crosspatch, Bulldust et al .
    Thank you Anthony and moderators for providing an outstanding website for intellectual engagement centred on the science of climate change and opening out into political, philosophical and economic issues that are part of the context. Not to mention abounding good humour and wit.

  89. Now that Brokenhagen is over, the incredible recent propaganda push the and deluge of absurdly alarmist papers in the scientific journals should wind down. Their intent was to push Copenhagen over the top. I guess the torrent will continue for another four months, but once it sinks in that their gigantic wealth transfer isn’t in the cards, there should be a willingness to say, “Well, maybe it won’t be all that bad,” or “Maybe there are adaptation strategies we could pursue.”

    There is a great article in the current Wired about safe, low-waste, cheap sodium/thorium nuclear reactors. Maybe we could make a push in that direction.

    Two other major initiatives Obama could seize upon to salvage something from this fiasco are described in the book, Prescription for the Planet, which an amazon reviewer describes thusly:

    “Transportation problems can be solved by burning boron as fuel (a 100% recyclable resource) and the waste problem inevitably caused by exponential growth can be at least partially solved by fully recycling all waste in plasma converters, which themselves can provide both significant power (the heat from these converters can turn a turbine to generate electricity) and important products.”

    Here’s the Amazon link:
    http://www.amazon.com/Prescription-Planet-Painless-Remedy-Environmental/dp/1419655825/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236568501&sr=1-1

  90. Over at http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/ under “Controlling the money” by Richard North is one explanation of how CO2 taxes are spent by the EU. Extract below

    “This is the $4.14 billion 4GW Mundra power project in India’s Gujarat State, being developed by Coastal Gujarat Power Limited. But it will come as no surprise to readers to learn that the Coastal Gujarat Power Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Tata Power Limited, which it acquired in April 2007.

    Thus, while our masters in the EU are closing down our existing coal plants, and no new plants are being permitted unless fitted – at enormous expense – for carbon capture, money from the long-suffering taxpayers of the UK and the rest of the developed world are being used to subsidise the building of a plant that will emit 25.7 million tons of CO2 per year for at least 25 years, adding another 643 million tons to an atmospheric carbon load.

    And the ultimate irony is – actually, it is beyond irony – is that the plant will qualify for the UN’s Clean Development Mechanism “carbon credits” which can then be sold on the carbon market, which UK generators will need to buy in order to continue producing electricity and keep the lights burning.

    Approved by the World Bank on 8 April last year, the project is being part-funded by the Bank’s International Finance Corporation (IFC), with an “A Loan” of up to $450 million, plus an investment of $50 million in equity. This was followed on 25 April by another loan from the Asian Development Bank (ADB), amounting to $450 million, both loans being on preferential terms because of their “green” development status.

    What gives the project its “green” status – and thus permits World Bank and ADB funding – is that it employs what is known as “super-critical” technology. This – in theory at least – improves the conversion efficiency (of fuel to electric power) to some 44 percent compared with only 34-36 percent for conventional coal-fired power plants.

    Piling irony on irony, this is exactly the type of power station which E.ON wanted to build at Kingsnorth in Kent, to which the greenies objected so much, even though future provision was to be made for carbon capture and carbon credits had to be bought to permit the plant to run.

    Yet, in India, this is the seventh such plant to be built (or in the planning), justified as “green” because the type reduces the average carbon emissions of India’s electricity generation system as a whole, per unit of electricity supplied. Nevertheless, this plant will not actually reduce total emissions. It will provide new capacity to a region short of electricity, so overall emissions will increase. Only the intensity of emissions will decrease.”

    I forecast that in 700 days, after a poor summer in 2010 and an even colder winter 2010/11, N H humans will have turned on their CO2 espousing politicians with a vengeance. Remember Ceauşescu and his wife Elena. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C5%9Fescu#Overthrow

    “The Ceauşescus were executed by a firing squad consisting of elite paratroop regiment soldiers Ionel Boeru, Dorin Cârlan and Octavian Gheorghiu, while reportedly hundreds of others also volunteered. The firing squad did not wait for the Ceauşescus to be tied up and blindfolded, as is customary, but instead began shooting as soon as they appeared. The firing happened too soon for the film crew covering the events to record it. After the shooting the bodies were covered with canvas.”

  91. Lord Monckton must have been feeling pretty knocked about since that incompetent Danish policeman knocked him out last Thursday. Even so, he kept a steady stream of posts coming on his blog yesterday and rounded it off with yet another hard hitting article this morning: http://sppiblog.org/news/parturient-montes-nascetur-ridiculus-mus#more-314.

    I am sure I am not the only person here thanking him for his tireless actions over the last week and in wishing him a rapid and complete recovery.

  92. This is what you get over at the BBC comments page:-

    “Your comment will be read by a Have Your Say moderator before it is published.

    Please note that due to the volume of comments that we receive, we cannot guarantee that all comments will be published.”

    Sort of says it all doesn’t it?

    Hear the sound or george Orwell laughing?

  93. This battle may be won but the war still rages. Let’s not get too smug. There are powerful forces afoot and we are badly outnumbered. Lets keep pressing forward. If we lose focus they will gain the advantage. This is not a victory, it is a diversion.

  94. The Daily Express readers showed their distrust of Mr Brown’s sweeping plans this week, with an overwhelming 98% of those taking part in a phone vote agreeing that the nation was being conned over global warming.

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/146923/Alarm-as-debt-soars-by-20bn-in-a-month

    Gordon Brown was yesterday accused of signing a £500billion death warrant for Britain’s economy in his desperate quest for a climate change deal. Ignoring the dire state of the country’s finances, such as the record Government borrowing figures of $20.3billion last month, Mr Brown has already pledged to hand over £7.5billion to an international fund to help poorer countries “cope with climate change”.

    You can vote if you think Gordon Brown is doing a good job or not
    http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=B5X1UiIgsS429KITJjQeh24jYDKaVxXD07YXgEMCNtwHw4JYBEAEYASC7r-AMKAI4AFDFs6Kq-P____8BYLu-roPQCqABjsLc9gOyARZ3d3cuZGFpbHlleHByZXNzLmNvLnVrugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEB2gEvaHR0cDovL3d3dy5kYWlseWV4cHJlc3MuY28udWsvcG9zdHMvdmlldy8xNDY5MjKAAgGpAsinoR_Lca8-yALMwMEEqAMByAMH6AOYA-gDugP1AwABAET1AyAAAAA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxh6a-d1hZwoWdLAzBQ17Ls5iLIbw&client=ca-pub-7663259432931645&adurl=http://rm.springboarduk.com/LP/f0fcc1a9fb0b4ef885622467c1d4dd44/a.aspx%3Frm_state%3Db%24f023c23acdbe439381cfb6fe17ffd646%7Ce%240%7Cl%240%7Cu%24%26utm_source%3Dgoogle%26utm_medium%3De%26utm_campaign%3Dlp1UK&nm=5

  95. geo (21:41:11) :
    Y’know, this isn’t a bad result all things considered. I’m not against insurance policies. . .I just don’t want to pay unreasonable prices for them. This Term Insurance can be terminated before it gets too costly, if further research and observable facts seem to make that advisable.

    A friend of mine lives in a town which is one of the highest point above sea level in Ohio. As a matter of fact she lives on one of the highest point in that town. In order for her receive a federal back mortgage, she had to agree to pay for flood insurance. It’s not much, only about $180.00 per year for 30 years. Over time as the government needed more money to cover the cost of national flood insurance, the army corp of engineers have included more and more land in flood areas. This not insurance. This is theft by the government.

  96. savethesharks (22:01:53) :

    From the Telegraph:

    ” ‘Most of the snow is falling in East Anglia,….’ she said.”

    This one satisfies me. I’ll go to bed happy.

  97. “East Anglia????

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA”

    FWIW: I just read that, back in the day, East Anglia was the headquarters of the Pilgrim / Puritan movement.

  98. Like most Xmas parties I’ll bet a lot of deligates are waking up today wonder how much of a fool they made of themselves, and a little dread at facing the boss on Monday.

    Oh deary dear!

  99. maxx (22:20:09) :

    I saw nothing posted at RC all day….but did see a tumblweed roll by….

    Now they claim to be upgrading software and are down. Hmmmmm…….that’s certainly inconvenient.

    Maybe they’re changing out harddrives, tidying up that unsightly incriminating evidence.

  100. Scott Fox (23:50:54) :

    Lord Monkton has a very different take on it.

    What is it? Could you supply a link? It’s a video?

    Please don’t leave us hanging without a link man.

  101. Here’s a briskly British brush-off from Monckton:

    Here, in a nutshell – for fortunately nothing larger is needed – are the main points of the ”Copenhagen Accord”:”

    Nice touch.

  102. Sorry OT, but I now would like to identify CRU mail(s) stating someone has actually deleted data file(s) to circumvent FOIA requests from “contrarians”.
    Anyone in the know please help me.

  103. In Politiken http://politiken.dk/klima/klimapolitik/article864206.ece (brief translation of headlines)
    Loekke Rasmussen (Danish PM) is close to giving up. Total meltdown threatened. Lars Loekke Rasmussen close to throwing in the towel. The Agreement that USA and some big countries agreed on cannot generate support. etc.
    “I have to accept with regret that the door is closed. I see no way of getting the text approved” said by the Danish PM a few minutes ago in the Bella Centre.

    This was posted at 08.00 hours Danish time.

    So no deal due to resistance from certain Latin American countries and low lying island states.

    The Brits are trying to organise an acceptance where the “non accepting” countries get their objections listed.

    They have negotiated the whole night.

  104. Richard Lindzen on Copenhagen

    “I’m pretty sure that they will sign something. Workable? I doubt it. Mischievous? Certainly.”

  105. William Happer, physicist, Princeton University, on Copenhagen

    “The best response would be to do nothing at Copenhagen and to go home to tend to real problems. As Climategate has made abundantly clear, the alarm about climate change has no scientific basis.”

  106. I’m not convinced all the politicians are convinced that warming is anthropogenic, what seems to have happened is that anyone who challenges the AGW assertion is treated as though they were advocating wife beating, so they stay silent on the issue.

  107. maxx (22:20:09) :

    I saw nothing posted at RC all day….but did see a tumblweed roll by….

    Isn’t it cool that skeptics/deniers/realists/optimists have ownage of this topic on the internet!

  108. DR (21:10:50) :

    “Who cares about Copenhagen when there is the EPA!”

    Regarding the EPA; isn’t it true that congress votes their anuual budget? If EPA aggravates congress, then might it not go bad for them? Can anyone from the US help me with this?

  109. Sean Peake (00:04:55) :

    This battle may be won but the war still rages. Let’s not get too smug. There are powerful forces afoot and we are badly outnumbered.

    Nah, we aren’t outnumbered. We’ve got Mother Nature on our side. She gets the last laugh no matter how hard you and I could fight.

  110. realclimate are alive and well and have published an article by a guy from Oxford University that is critical of realclimate. What’s going on? Do I detect a subtle attempt to try to move away from the dogmatic, one-sided, vituperative site we’ve seen since its inception?

    Unfortunately for them they’ve left plenty of evidence of their single minded, and often ill-mannered advocacy of AGW.

  111. I’m not convinced Copenhagen was a failure, we’re just slightly further towards the thick end of the Kyoto wedge, certainly not if it’s stated in the Gaurdian. No Govn’t anywhere will give up on that ultimate revenue stream by taxing our air and energy needs.

    2010 is going to be an interesting year indeed.

  112. No more ‘hope’ and ‘change’:(

    Now it’s much more specific stuff like ‘progress’ and ‘momentum’:)

    Depending on where you’re from, I guess… ‘Britain and many poor countries’

    Maybe some present were unsure all being discussed was not as settled as top scientists like Pres. Obama and PM Brown say it was… er… is.

    Speaking of whom, on the BBC just saw David King say that Gordon was neither right nor wrong to be pleased at the outcome. Uh-huh.

    He does have a different take to most. Wonder why?

    Fight to control Copenhagen climate change fund
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8419048.stm

    Possibly it needs a world-saving financial genius?

    And perhaps the fact that nothing is legally binding is no bad thing:)

    A critical message needing to be followed by well-considered, high enviROI actions totally blown by the wrong folk for the job.

  113. This was never about the science, it was always about money. The oucome at Copenhagen implies no judgement about the science at all. For the (often corrupt) LDC governments the process was just a way to extract money from gullible western governments who have yet to explain to their voters the implications for their lives of the carbon targets they want to commit to.

    Oddly the UK government wants to continue with the 3rd Heathrow airport runway, for instance. And they have said slashing carbon emissions needn’t mean the end of cheap foreign holidays by plane. Go figure.

    In the UK all three main parties believe in AGW. On the political front the pressure should be turned on them to detail what their policies would mean for the voters’ lives. For instance in the UK we get charged green levies on our energy bills, to keep the AGW costs off our tax bill, where they would be more visible.

    There is a political battle to fight alongside the scientific one.

  114. “The so-called Copenhagen accord “recognises” the scientific case for keeping temperature rises to no more than 2C but did not contain commitments to emissions reductions to achieve that goal”

    Um… forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but this means they aren’t even using the pretext of reduction targets as a rough estimate for the cost of “saving the world”. It will now cost however much it costs to prevent a 2C rise (in the wise and all-knowing computer models, of course…).

  115. I guess now in the post-Climategate era we can send a message to our leaders in the up coming elections.

  116. Well, sorry to be a grouch but I was REALLY hoping for a stray asteroid to flatten the lot of them.

    Failing that, for there to be global agreement that all Climate Alarmist “Climatic Research Units” across the globe should be taped off as crime scenes whilst the misdeeds of the eco-fascists and rent seekers who work there are fully investigated. And trials mounted. And punishment exacted. And the Rudds, Browns, Obamas and the rest forced to stand for re-election.

    I know, I know. Crying for the moon again.

    So I suppose the outcome could have been very much worse.

    But, even though it is nice to note that the majority of commenters even on the Grauniad piece Anthony has posted here are calling BS on the whole thing, a more sensible front page story is seen on the Express:-
    http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/146922
    which warns “Climate Nut Brown will Ruin Britain”.

    So far as the UK is concerned, that says it all. And, no doubt, Cameron and Clegg will be slagging him off for not throwing even more onto the table. Make no mistake, we in the UK are absolutely stuffed.

    Meanwhile, even our American friends need to be eternally vigilant. The real deal, behind the scenes, as Monckton predicted, is about money and World Governance.

    Check out:-
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/final-copenhagen-text-includes-global-transaction-tax.html

    Check out:-
    http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/12/theatre-is-over.html

    OK, we won a battle.

    Now we have to win a war.

  117. Some initial thoughts:

    – Two years of negotiations, and at the end of it no legally binding agreement, just a last minute face-saving agreement, which Obama announced on TV – circumventing the UN protocol and apparently upsetting the majority of the member countries.

    – The greens (and alarmist scientists) are far from happy at what they see as a very poor result.

    – The Chinese are obviously never going to risk their desire for economic development by agreeing to legally binding CO2 emission targets.

    – The Russians kept their heads down.

    Some thoughts on longer term implications:

    – had a legally binding agreement been signed, and CO2 emissions were significantly reduced (both unlikely) and the over the next 10-20 years the planet continued to cool (or remain at current temperatures) then the green groupthink and bad science would have been validated – the worst possible outcome.

    – as the agreement is (from a green perspective) barely worth the paper it is written on, and if emissions contine to rise (very likely) and the planet’s temperature continues to cool (without any major volcanic activity) then it only gets more difficult for the warmists and politicians to sustain their green groupthink and continue this farce.

    – if global temperatures are observed to rise in the the next 5 to 10 years, then it is very likely that the alarmist media and the unproven CO2 thesis will prevail.

    So everything hangs on the global temperature trend. Given the stakes, (and despite the high cost of heating fuel, I just paid £500 for 1100 lites of kerosene!) I am hoping for continued and signifiicant cooling – it would be a very pleasant irony if it was Mother Earth (albeit with the help of a few sceptics) that ended this madness.

  118. Gerard (20:53:48) :
    King Canute (Obama) eloquently telling the sun not to make the 2 degrees warmer – a snowballs chance in hell!

    That’s 2 °C saved or created by the Obama Administration.

    And this thing ain’t over by a long shot.

  119. All I would say is:

    The Guardian Newspaper goes to print before the negotiations would have been over.

    Let’s wait 24 hours before making judgements. Because until then we won’t know what decisions have been taken.

  120. Obama states they have agreed to cap the temperature rise to 2C. How? Have I missed somehting? Did some one invent a climate control machine? Is it based on HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program) which has been claimed to have an ability to control at least the weather? It’s certainly nothing to do with cutting CO2 emissions for two reasons. One, the scientific data that has been used by the IPCC to support their claims have all been proven to be false. Two, no one has stated how we are going to make this 2C cap work by setting emission reduction targets so ridiculously low, which by themselves will make absolutely no difference to the climate. Even the AGW believers have stated this.

  121. I bet there’s some diappointed executives at Mercedes-Benz, Sukhoi & MiL. No money heading into the despots’ pockets for them to spend on their type of executive toys!

  122. What we are seeing is the destruction and discrediting of the environmental movement by people who supposedly are its most fanatical supporters.

    We have seen hysteria about CO2 lead to the wilful ignoring of much more pressing environmental concerns, we’ve seen the movement urging the conversion of food crop lands to the growing of gasoline, thus increasing both air pollution, traffic deaths and food prices, hence hunger. We’ve seen collusion with the windmill lobby for the large scale industrial development of the few protected wild areas we have left in the name of conservation. Its total nonsense.

    Its time to close the thing down and reinvent it. We do need an environmental movement, its just that we need one which is devoted to sensible goals that will improve the environment, not a bunch of hysterics who think its a real contribution to fly over to Denmark and start attacking the police. This is how to cool the planet? This reduces CO2? Even if reducing CO2 would make the slightest difference?

    Give me a break!

  123. Lord Monckton’s take is that the BRIC countries have NOT agreed to any emission reductions except if the West pays, and if the West doesn’t pay – well, they may or may not reduce emissions as they see fit. And if they don’t reduce emissions, there may not be any tariffs imposed by countries that do reduce emissions on countries that don’t. Thank you, come again.

  124. OT, but related to CO2 emissions, I saw this reported recently on SBS here in Aus.

    Largest recorded under-sea volcanic erruption:

    http://www.itwire.com/content/view/30166/1066/

    Add to this the volcano named “Beautiful” in the Phillipines about to blow it’s top:

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/volcano-called-beautiful-turns-very-ugly-20091217-kzgz.html

    I wonder how our “leaders” will off-set these emissions and prevent climate change. With more international love-ins, group-think sessions, taxes and documents?

  125. This is certainly change that I can believe in. NONE

    I am happy to hear that nationalistic politics and economics got in the way of climate politics and economics.

  126. ‘Who the God’s destroy they first make mad’. After several decades of manipulation, lies, group think, and worse, the inevitable result was bound to be chaos at Copenhagen. I long for us to get back to really caring for the planet (its lakes, rivers, forests, oceans and glorious varieties of species) and its people, instead of trying to tax carbon and establish a low CO2 based new world political order. Fortunately God’s mercy exceeds the stupidity and rapacity of the emerging international poltical elite.

  127. Yesterday morning after reading an article in the guardian about Copenhagen,
    I noticed quite a few skeptic comments ridiculing the AGW nonsense, some of these comments received up to 80 “recommendations” whilst alarmist comments received far less.
    By late afternoon all skeptic comments had been “removed by a moderator”.

  128. Sean Peake (00:04:55):
    I couldn’t agree with you more. They’ll be back, even worse’n Arnie.
    We may feel we had some good luck with Climategate and the ignored Russkie climate stations surfacing at just the right time. But were these even significant factors to those bozos? Or more: we may think those revelations were the unquestionable game-changers, but does your next door neighbour agree? Does he/she even know about them?
    We had a victory (I think). But this is not the time to get stinkin’ drunk in wild celebration. This is the time to force the momentum (if we truly have any, and let’s suppose we do) and work even harder.
    To our more excitable allies (and I am one of you, at times): perhaps now we should tone down our rhetoric to some more thoughtful and sober level. That can be very persuasive. Instead of louder, let’s try for more. Much more. We all have lots of neighbours, as yet untouched, who might respond to clear, non-threatening debate.

  129. Now here’s a breakthrough the BBC giving sceptics a voice. True the questions posed are each countered by an AGW statement, and not all the questions are what this particular sceptic would have posed. Now we if we can get them to put the questions the other way around, the sceptics could counter their argument. The have at last conceded that CO2 rises after temperature (something that was denied on the Royal Society web site a year ago), but the AGW response that this time temperature is following CO2 goes unchallenged. They fail to put the sceptic view that there is no relationship in the geological records other than CO2 rising after temperature to indicate that temperature and CO2 levels are in any way related.

    I guess it’s a start even if it’s a blatant attempt to rebuke the sceptics.

  130. I have been reading comments from CAGW NGO-activists and they think this is the end of the world, a bigger failure than what they could have imagined in their worst nightmares. A step back from Kyoto with no binding agreements, no commitments, nothing, just promises. But the promises we already had before Copenhagen. So this is NOTHING, zero, nilch, nadda. This summit was a great victory for the skeptic side. It gives time, another 3 years at least to make the scientific case to the “world leaders” before any drastic sums of climate money start changing hands. And if “mother nature” lends us a helping hand with cooling temperatures, it can be done. This was the beginning of the end for climate alarmism.

  131. John Page (11:01:57):
    Yes, it’s about money. But even more, it’s about power. The two are not exactly the same.
    The science, and the logic of the science, are all we have to fight with. It might be enough. But I would welcome any thoughts you and Sean Peake may have on other weaponry, strategy, tactics. It’s time to think hard and deep, and if possible present our own people with a strong plan.

  132. Remember this?
    Brown: “50 days to save world”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8313672.stm

    “PM warns of climate “catastrophe”
    The UK faces a “catastrophe” of floods, droughts and killer heatwaves if world leaders fail to agree a deal on climate change, the prime minister has warned.

    Gordon Brown said negotiators had 50 days to save the world from global warming and break the “impasse”.

    He told the Major Economies Forum in London, which brings together 17 of the world’s biggest greenhouse gas-emitting countries, there was “no plan B”.”

    …He said that 62 days ago.

    And there was a “plan B”, which he was embarrassing himself trying to promote at Copenhagen, which was the original plan but excluded China. He was running around attempting this last-minute deal, but by then the gathering was already breaking up, and the Japanese were on their way home.

    And they wonder why we don’t believe them, anymore.

  133. From weather is not climate department:
    Frankfurt/Germany has it’s coldest Dec 19th today (data since 1949),
    last minimum record for today is -7.10 °C from 1963-12-19.
    Currently, 11:30 CEST here, it’s: – 12.00 °C.

  134. …and now after an all night session, the Copenhagen “Deal” has been officially
    “noted”:

    http://apnews.excite.com/article/20091219/D9CMAJU80.html

    Just before the “Deal” was announced, there was a fast shuffle, the deck was
    stacked, and calling for the ante froze out the little nations.

    The politics seems a lot like the science in this “Deal of the Decade”.

    Manhattan island & Washington D.C. area both under official “blizzard” warnings.

  135. Copenhagen marks the high water mark of AGW. Thank goodness we’ve got passed it without any legally binding treaty to try to rearrange the entire global economy. There will not be another conference for a number of years, by which time the world may well have cooled a bit more, the reality of what Climategate means with regards to the science will be self evident. Next time round (and there will be a next time, too many careers are at stake) there will be many more dissenting voices.

    Thank God the turkeys didn’t vote for Christmas!

  136. savethesharks (19:36:19) :

    From the Guardian:

    “But he [Obama] said he would not be staying for the final vote because of weather constraints in Washington.”
    From the DC NWS Broadcast:

    … Record breaking December snowfall for Baltimore-Washington
    metropolitan areas bringing hazardous winter weather to the region
    overnight and Saturday

    Is this climate change? Then it must be due to excess carbon emissions. Hey! Heads I win, tails you lose.

  137. michel (01:48:05) “We’ve seen collusion with the windmill lobby for the large scale industrial development of the few protected wild areas we have left in the name of conservation.”

    This makes me irate. Do you have any related links?

  138. Shameful. A lot of corrupt leaders and their cronies probably spent days before the conference setting up Swiss bank accounts in anticipation of getting billions and now they have to return empty handed. And it is Christmas. What are they going to tell all those relatives that were promised expensive cars, holidays and lots of loot.

  139. Wayne Richards (02:37:51) “It’s time to think hard and deep, and if possible present our own people with a strong plan.”

    Agree. Come big or stay home.

  140. ” P Gosselin (01:33:02) :

    Consider it dead and buried.”

    No, consider it like the fairground game… as the head of one clown is bashed down another will pop up somewhere else.

  141. Comment from BBC News24 this morning, regarding the freezing cold weather:

    “Global warming may mean much colder winters”.

    ?!

  142. Anyway here is the Copenhagen Accord for those interested in perusing the contents http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2009/cop15/eng/l07.pdf
    It is not entirely clear what sort of Accord it is. Apparently it was not accepted by all 193 or so UN countries but “hammered through” by the UN Secretary General and countries can now decide if they want to sign or not as the case may be. I guess that if it is that “iffy” if it actually is a valid UN document it could generate court cases if big money is thrown towards the developing world without a proper legal basis. Time will show.

  143. Here’s what the BBC’s Roger Black has to say:

    “The concept that global environmental issues can and should be tackled on a co-operative international basis has taken a massive, massive blow.

    The UN climate convention is the flagship agreement, and its outcomes are supposed to be negotiated. This deal was presented to the greater body of countries on a take-it-or-leave-it basis by small group of powerful players.

    It is now debatable whether the UN climate convention has a meaningful future, or whether powerful countries will just decide by themselves, or in a small group, by how much they are prepared to cut emissions. ”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8422186.stm

    Well, at least he seems to have got something right, at last.

    Now, remember that Barack Obama was going to be the President who restored the world’s faith in America by talking nicely to everybody instead of telling them all what to do. As someone seasonal would say: Ho, Ho, Ho.

  144. Patrick Davis (02:02:59) :
    Largest recorded under-sea volcanic erruption…Add to this the volcano named “Beautiful” in the Phillipines about to blow it’s top…
    I wonder how our “leaders” will off-set these emissions and prevent climate change. With more international love-ins, group-think sessions, taxes and documents?

    Nope. They’ll all go trooping to Putney to search for sacrificial virgins…

  145. View from a slightly liberal skeptic. President Obama played a blinder.

    1.The “deal” is among the big emitters, and will stop any “race to the bottom” in emissions pledges. The EU was excluded as the Whitehouse recognises that they are infected by the Greens. ( There will follow a period of backbiting within the EU, expect the Danes to cop a load of Flak).

    2. China takes the blame, – something they can live with. I suggest that for all their wailing we won’t see too many Greenpeace activists protesting in Tianamein Square!

    3. The UN process has been shafted, the POTUS reconised that the whole UN/IPCC farago is damaged goods and wants to distance the US from it. The UEA e-mails may have had more of an effect here than anywhere else. I also cannot imagine that there will be a huge rush to offer to host any proposed follow up confence, ( see above re the Danes).

    4. The 2deg C commitment could easily be achieved by “re-adjustment” of the figures over time, UK governments (including the administration of which the noble Lord Mockton was a member) do this all the time with the unemployment figures.

    5. The 100bn is peanuts on a world scale (google TARP, NAMA or RBS to you see real money!) and a small price to shut up the trouble makers. In any case most of the money will never show up.

    In other words President Obama has came up with exactly what President George W Bush would have aimed for, its just that he is a better showman( but probably less principled).

    Finally, to quote a certain British Prime minster dealing with rather more serious matter: “Now this is not the end, nor is it even the beginning of the end, but it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning”.

  146. So…. As the Champagne-again conference winds down, and tired delegates lever their lardy arses into their limos for the ride to their awaiting jets, what have we learned about the U.N’s ability to organise a piss-up in a brewery town?

    And these people want us to pay a tax on every financial transaction so they can build an unelected world government???

    The simple way to thwart their plans is to stop using money systems which give them the opportunity to take a slice off your leg.

    Cash is king.

  147. It’s all in a day’s blizzard. He got there in one and returned in a bigger one.
    Yes, it is climate change.
    Ice Cold Climate Change.

  148. More than 2,000 people have been evacuated from four Eurostar trains that were trapped in the Channel tunnel after breaking down due to the cold weather.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/19/four-eurostar-trains-break-down

    I know, I know, weather isn’t climate, as I always tell people.

    But these guys seem to have no problem screaming dangerous climate change at the first sign of a mild heat wave in summer time. So, as I get ready to face blizzards on the East Coast of the U.S. today, I say “what global warming?”

  149. First time I’ve been back to ‘realclimate’ for two or three weeks.Yes a big change but those they are claiming have ‘no connection’ with ‘realclimate’ are still in the cabal of 42 who authored together and then peer reviewed their own work. These crooks aren’t giving up the ghost without a fight.

  150. The good thing that may have come out of this (apart from the fact that there is no agreement) is that the money for poor countries (which I hope does NOT include Zimbabwe) is to help them adapt to climate change which is, to my mind, the right approach.
    If only we had seen what was coming sooner and shot down the fatuous pseudo-science of the eco-fascists — there was another one on the BBC ‘Any Questions’ programme last night telling us again that climate change is absolutely the worst thing that mankind has had to face – ever! Black Death, anybody? WW1? — we could have had a sensible debate about what (if anything) needed to be done to adapt, which is what human beings have always done and it looks from where I’m sitting we have done pretty well.

    I think perhaps we have a window of opportunity here so can we all raise our voices in support of sane science and demand that these dollars do not go to the Maldives or Tuvalu where sea-levels are not threatening to engulf the islands or to countries where it will not be used for anything other than to inflate further the Swiss bank accounts of the corrupt politicians.
    And can we also insist in every medium we can get our hands on that the the antics of the eco-fascists at Copenhagen demonstrate more than anything else that they are not interested in science; they do not understand science; that for them “climate change” is just another excuse to take to the streets for a confrontation with western civilisation and that the fake science surrounding CO2 is a manufactured excuse for them to further their agenda of destroying that very same civilisation.

    And will somebody who understands the science better than I do, please explain in words of one syllable to the general public and to the politicians (who don’t understand it, either — and why should they?) precisely what will be the effects on our quality of life — transport, energy, health, etc. — of a 50% reduction in emissions of CO2?

  151. LUMUMBA STANISLAUS DI-APING, HEAD OF G-77 GROUP

    [The draft text] asks Africa to sign a suicide pact, an incineration pact in order to maintain the economic dominance of a few countries. It is a solution based on values, the very same values in our opinion that funnelled six million people in Europe into furnaces.

    So, the holocaust meme comes back to bite the warmists in chief on the backside.

  152. “The so-called Copenhagen accord “recognises” the scientific case for keeping temperature rises to no more than 2C but did not contain commitments to emissions reductions to achieve that goal.”

    It said on the news this morning that they had agreed to limit the rise to within 2C of pre-industrial levels. Do we know how they define pre-industrial temperature?

    Did president Obama have any problems with the weather on his way back to the US? Just interested? In the British media the winter weather in the rest of the Northern Hemisphere is know where to be seen.

  153. Now that we are going to limit global warming to 2 degrees C (I wonder if that applies to global cooling as well), next year let’s limit tides to 2m and the year after hurricanes should be restricted to 2 a year and the year after that ……

  154. Why is it that North American television commentators pronounce East Anglia as if it were East Angola? (It’s pronounced ann-glee-ah.)

  155. Failure?

    To make the delegates feel better, Mrs. Bill Clinton promised them $100,000,000,000 to divide up into their Swiss bank accounts.

    Too bad these United States are bankrupt. President Obama will have to borrow it from the Communist Chinese before he can give it away. Then the despots will be his “very best friend”.

    Got children? Pity them!

    Regards,

    Steamboat Jack

  156. The Club of Rome’s (members: Al Gore, Kofi Annan, Tony Blair, Javier Solano, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter et al) plan for global dictatorship has been derailed, for the moment.

    Climategate inquiries in Britan and America will hopefully expose the Club of Rome’s evil plan for what it is. If not, we’re going to have to get physical.

  157. China has smashed the AGW scam and try as the Euroweenie’s might, it will never succeed.

    As everyone should have realised before Copenhagen, China is not going to imperil its economic development for anyone. In the last few centuries, China has been bullied and trashed by Japan and Europe. Now it wealthy and militarily strong, it refuses to be pushed around.

    Nor is China interested in the one world government lark. They’ll be keeping their sovereignty thanks very much, not passing it over to a bunch of Europeans, Africans and less developed Asian countries who are supposed to pay tribute to the middle kingdom. Nor does the Chinese government need AGW as a tax excuse. All those rationales that may be persuasive to EU governments are of no interest to them.

    If China doesn’t restrict emissions, no way will the US do so. It simply will not get through Congress. And forget about any cooperation from the rest of BRIC. So there’s 2/3 or so of world emissions off the table.

    The Europeans and the green NGOs and the UN and the bludging third world dictators and the warmist scientific frauds can all pout, throw tantrums, hold their breath till they’re blue in the face but it will make no difference. China will not budge, and so there will be no global agreement of any consequence on this matter, ever.

  158. “FWIW: I just read that, back in the day, East Anglia was the headquarters of the Pilgrim / Puritan movement.”

    And today is mostly known for – how shall we put it delicately – a long tradition of “close families”.

  159. I did a post on the Guardian website as leicestersq. It was deleted by the moderator.

    All I can think of was stating my belief that ‘manmade global warming was a load of tosh’. I think that those were the words.

    I didnt insult anyone, just the theory. I am entitled to my beliefs.

    And it appears that the Guardian wont let those beliefs be expressed.

  160. Can I amend this phrase in the article: “falling far short of what Britain and many poor countries were seeking”

    to “falling far short of what Britain and many OTHER poor countries were seeking”.

    It’s a small but necessary change to preserve accuracy.

  161. A Daniel B. Botkin, professor emeritus in the Department of Ecology, Evolution, and Marine Biology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, has just published an opinion article at the Wall Street Journal Online titled “Global Warming and an Odd Bull Moose.”

    I won’t post it here observing the journal’s copyright. But it is a brilliant piece I’m sure most here will connect with. Its an observation regarding climate models. It captures my own thinking regarding their likely accuracy as well as my position on the new way of studying science.

    Do try to give it a read.

  162. Roger Carr (19:42:47) :

    All I want for Christmas is me incandescent light bulbs back.
    (Heck with my two front teeth.)

    Ditto! Can we do this before my stock runs empty? In a cold country like mine (it is -13C outside now), incandescent light bulbs are 100% effective when used indoors. Most people here heat their homes using electric power anyway.

    That nonsense about banning incandescent light bulbs is really annoying and expensive.

  163. With any luck, if the representatives of the G-77 countries keep screaming for a few weeks demanding action on catastrophic man made global warming and the dopey MSM gives them the oxygen of publicity (apparently one loon mutilated herself), then an unintended consequence will be that the general public (who don’t follow this blog, WUWT, CA etc.) will finally be appaised of the AGW scam and also realise the extent to which they are being shafted by the useless politicians.

    Possibly then the people who placed their trust in these “science is settled” loons will start taking notice, think about it and then the pennies will start to drop.

  164. Stan Needham (19:31:18) :

    But, but, but, but……..the AP said it was an “unprecendented” agreement.

    And indeed it was. It was the first last and only time that an agreement will be made at COP15. Thus it is without precedent.

  165. Climate is just the vehicle. This is about really power and money. The UN cannot exist as ‘world-government’ without funds and so it is essential for it to set up a working structure ready for the input of those funds and bully the world into accepting that structure.

    Think of this as an inverse international drug cartel… where ‘dollar’ is the drug of choice. First the cartel (the West) has to get the victim (the Third World) to sample its product. It does this through promises and threats. Once hooked, the Third World will quickly become dependent upon a regular supply of ‘dollar’ being delivered to its door. In fact, like most junkies, its previous ability to get on with an independent life will quickly collapse into a rabid dependency on the suppler for its regular ‘fix’ of dollar.

    In turn, the cartel will harvest the dollar it exports from the fields of the poor amongst its own people. In its unprocessed form of ‘tax’, the cartel will screw the highest yields it can from those who will feel it most – the poor of the West… using the power it has grabbed to threaten – and carry out – ‘punishment’ if the demanded quotas are not met.

    The Third World, meanwhile will sing and dance to whatever tune the cartel whistles… fully aware of the threat of withdrawal of its drug supply if it isn’t compliant (democracy be-damned!).

    Far-fetched? Without any shame, UK Environment Secretary Ed Miliband was already threatening the Third World yesterday that his demands “would have to be endorsed to unlock funds outlined in the deal, including $30 billion in “quick-start” aid from 2010-12, rising to $100 billion (£62bn) a year from 2020.” (Daily Telegraph).

  166. Hurrah the agw buffons have failed! Thanks to Watts Up, Climate Audit, and all the other blogs which have single-handedly stood firm on demanding real science be provided before we all start handing the keys of our cars to some twit from the UN.

    This opaque project to control the citizenry of the world through energy rationing has failed miserably. I reckon even Obama tweaked that this is all less about any real threat to mankind, and more about greed, control and fanatsy ideologies.

  167. This is analogous to Howard Dean criticizing Obama for not being left enough.

    IOW, business as usual. So what?

  168. China has got it’s priorities right:-

    HEAD OF CHINA’S CLIMATE DELEGATION, XIE ZHENHUA
    “The meeting has had a positive result, everyone should be happy. After negotiations both sides have managed to preserve their bottom line. For the Chinese this was our sovereignty and our national interest.”

    THEIR ‘national interest’ comes first!

  169. A point that other commentators have missed (and one that especially those who are not in the US may not realize) is that the promised $100 billion is just magic pixie dust, not real. The first thing that Obama said when he got back to the states is “nothing is legally binding on the US.” Which means no money unless Congress votes for it, and that means in an election year Congress is going to be asked (with voters already worried about the deficits!) to give away $100 billion (or 30, or whatever) to countries that have promised nothing.

    So will this money be appropriated? Oh hell no, this is just another airy-fairy promise that will get swept under the rug. When the time comes and someone brings it up, an excuse will be found for not doing it. That’s about all Obama is really good at.

  170. Thanks Wattsupwiththat!
    The naive conspirers, thanks God (to the God they don´t believe in) were:
    aghast, horrified, shocked, amazed, stunned, appalled, astonished, startled, astounded, confounded, awestruck, horror-struck, thunder-struck

  171. Martin Brumby (01:22:25) :
    OK, we won a battle.

    Now we have to win a war.

    Not just any battle, though. I believe this defeat will prove to be their Waterloo. Yes, of course the war will go on, and we need to keep the pressure on so that they don’t regain the momentum they have now lost. Political support for the AGW/CC “Cause”, especially in the U.S., where it was weakest to begin with, is crumbling though, as is support for its primary promoters, the Democrats, who will very likely see punishing losses in the mid-term elections next year. That will be a further warning shot across the bow to Obama and bedfellows to beware; they could be next on the chopping block.

  172. One thing that concerns me about this, is how the third and developing world sees the west/developed world.There’s already enough animosity between these two (or three) different camps. Part of the campaign of propaganda promoting the AGW theory, is the treat of floods, famine, storms etc… threatening particular areas of the world.
    Over the following years and decades, every nature disaster (weather related) will be blamed on on the west and the desire to migrate away from these supposedly threatened regions will increase.

  173. This isn’t over. The transparency/compliance mechanism is nothing like what the Senate wanted. Statements by nations of “voluntary” emission goals will be micro-scrutinized by skeptics and the loopholes will soon be made evident and public. Climategate will spread and further erode support for AGW “science”. The battle now moves to the States. Be ready.

  174. Copenhagen was less about Golbal Warming than many suppose. The issue of AGW was taken over by politicians, billionaires, marxists, anarchists, and nuts of every kind and gender. Copenhagen was a chance, a real opportunity, to “Change the Social Order” and make some great profits; changing the weather, or saving the third world from flooding, draught, and climate change was never a serious goal –just a slogan on a banner. The organizers were disappointed in the end result but they were not defeated. They live to fight another day, and they certainly will fight another day; bet on it.

  175. More of this cold weather in the northern hemisphere, and in particular the US, and the US might, just might have a real crisis on its hands – freezing. I wonder if the US citizens are wise enough to realise they are suffering some of the coldest weather in history, and asking the question what global warming, are you out of your mind President Obama? Or are they brainless as ever and still believe in a rapid rises in temperatures to be followed by global warming catastrophe?

  176. Articles are being prepared as we sleep about how “rotten the ic…er…snow has become”. And how much more “violent the hurri…er…snow storms have risen to”, all due to CO2. Courtesy RC. That’s why the site is down. It takes awhile to wordfind “ice” and “hurricanes” so that the articles can be resubmitted. In the biz, we call those “reconstituted papers”. Same data, different spin.

  177. Surely the talks have therefore been a success?

    “anyone who challenges the AGW assertion is treated as though they were advocating wife beating, so they stay silent on the issue.” — correct geronimo.

  178. With all the “positives” Obama promised, he conditioned them with the phrase, “consistant with science”. Has climategate caused him to have some doubts about his appointed economic, energy, and environmental science advisors? Hopefully, there will be some positive changes.

  179. I can’t believe we don’t have an iron clad planetary regime after all that fuss and bother.
    They’re going to have to go the back-door route with a global goods and services tax to provide us with the Malthusian utopia we’ve been promised for so long.

    The Mississippi sea should have woken us up.

  180. It’s official.

    It’s a failure.

    The Copenhagen Conference did not approve the agreement reached by Obama, China, India, Brazil, & S. Africa. Instead they decided to only “take note” of the agreement.

    So, with apologies to Mr. Bill Shakespeare,

    Copenhagen’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
    And then is heard no more: it is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

  181. Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd was interviewed about Copenhagen on Nine Network TV tonight. The reporter actually laughed when Rudd described Copenhagen as a success.

  182. evanmjones 22:58- a quote from The Yes Album!? Obscure but most welcome.

    The tribute money can be called Copengeld

    It’s like Danegeld, but it’s to help folks Copin’ with “global” “warming”. Or to line the pockets of tyrants and bureaucrats…

  183. Anthony … quote of the week candidate … or at least humor quote of the week. ☺☺

    Derryman said, I suggest that for all their wailing we won’t see too many Greenpeace activists protesting in Tiananmen Square!

    Good one …

  184. 2 things on ‘realclimate’. 1. Gary is attacking Scarfetta for not sharing his data or code – says he can’t by hook or by crook replicate his findings – However,in the comments another chap says ‘yes,I was able to reproduce the work from what was included in the paper,no problem’ ( oops,titter). 2. A link to a presentation that Scarfetta gave to the EPA. I found it interesting. I really don’t know why these people can’t see that with all this money riding on the outcome,we want to be sure AGW is based on proper (not ‘post-normal’) science?
    http://yosemite.epa.gov/ee/epa/eed.nsf/vwpsw/360796B06E48EA0485257601005982A1#video


  185. alantrer (05:03:11) : A Daniel B. Botkin, professor emeritus in the Department of Ecology, Evolution, and Marine Biology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, has just published an opinion article at the Wall Street Journal Online titled “Global Warming and an Odd Bull Moose.”
    I won’t post it here observing the journal’s copyright. But it is a brilliant piece I’m sure most here will connect with. Its an observation regarding climate models. It captures my own thinking regarding their likely accuracy as well as my position on the new way of studying science.

    Do try to give it a read.

    Really, that’s worth reading. Thank you very much. Here is also the link:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107104574573723651114320.html

  186. Beware of people like the Norwegian Minister of the Environment, Erik Solheim in the coming months

    “Minister of the Environment, Erik Solheim (SV) is of the opinion that countries who wish to sabotage the climate negotiations got too much room to perform their action during the summit in Copenhagen.

    – The conference exposed major weaknesses in the organization of the international climate effort. We allowed far too much so that countries that wanted to ruin the conference could use up valuable time on pure procedural questions. We must prevent this the next time, ” said Mr Solheim to VG Net”

    Translated from Norwegian
    http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/klimatrusselen/artikkel.php?artid=581106

  187. ATD (04:53:26) :

    “FWIW: I just read that, back in the day, East Anglia was the headquarters of the Pilgrim / Puritan movement.”

    And today is mostly known for – how shall we put it delicately – a long tradition of “close families”.

    Alan Partridge: “Norwich is an attitude,”

  188. Sorry, OT, but a foot and a half of snow here in western MD overnite and continuing, accumulating on power lines & trees. Electricity hasn’t gone out yet, but the strong winds won’t start until Sunday when the storm passes to the east.

    Did Al Bore fly back into DC?

  189. From the Telegraph weather report:

    “Most of the snow is falling in East Anglia [plus Essex and Kent] and will continue to do so,” she said.

    Nature’s revenge for Climategate?

    IanM

  190. Why is it that North American television commentators pronounce East Anglia as if it were East Angola?

    Because it IS. :D

  191. Obama: ‘This manmade global warming is a crock of poop isn’t it?’
    Wen: ‘Yep.’
    Obama: ‘What are we going to do?’
    Wen: ‘Why don’t we just say we won’t let the Earth warm up by more than 2 degrees?’
    Obama: ‘Good idea. The only ones we can trust to tell us what the temperature really is don’t believe in this fairy story either.’
    Wen: ‘What about emissions?’
    Obama: ‘Not bothered.’
    Wen: ‘Me neither.’

  192. “it was left to Barack Obama and Wen Jiabao, the Chinese premier, to broker a political agreement. The so-called Copenhagen accord “recognises” the scientific case for keeping temperature rises to no more than 2C”

    Is it any wonder no-one takes this bunch of Cnuts seriously?

  193. Three overriding facts:

    CO2 is beneficial, not deleterious.

    The sun and the stars control our climate.

    The base component of climate is weather.

    Use these three demonstrable facts and you can win an argument against false science every time. The term “climate change” has been hijacked by the powers that would enslave us–don’t be fooled; a changing climate is the status quo and doesn’t need “saving”.

  194. Dave Wendt (21:11:12) : “I’d like to feel relieved, but I can’t escape the notion that these folks are a nightmare combination of Freddy Krueger, Michael from”Halloween”, Jason from “Friday the 13th”, and the “Terminator” all rolled into one. No matter how many times you think they’ve finally been stopped, they keep rising zombie like from the flaming ruins and resuming the chase.”

    The Whack-a-mole game comes to mind…..

    IanM

  195. Oh how i wished AGW was real. At least a little. Here in Braunschweig, Germany, temperature this morning was -14 degrees Celsius. Which i last remember at this time of the year in about 1982 or so.

  196. Let’s just hope that other attempts to impose world socialism are equally effective. These people are not going to go away easily- it’s what they do because they have no actual productive skills.

  197. Most popular post on the BBC what do you think is

    The scientific evidence that this summit is based upon has now been questioned. No deal should be agreed until the true facts are agreed. No political spin, ideals or showmanship should be considered. Clean air is one thing, global warming or climate change is another. The UK government and its agencies are prime suspects in this conspiricy to fleece everyone of yet more tax for idealistic and unworkable ends.

    John Wurrows, Nottingham

    Recommended by 101 people

    Top 3 comments are Anti AGW

    The tide is turning

  198. Obama and the rest of the warmingales seem bent on placing all the blame on skeptics. As though their lies and the reality has nothing to do with it. A good analogy might be how all prisoners are “innocent” when asked. It is frightening because it is a skewed way of viewing the world and allows one to shirk the responsibility that one has to accept. Admit that you were wrong and we can move forward. Blame everyone else for your woes and we remain where we stand. Sadly, it seems that we have come no further than Galilean times.

  199. Politicians-governments were set to make trillions of dollars with so called carbon tax and carbonfootprint control,climate worries no, money worries yes.
    News media-scare tactics and sensationalism feeding hysteria , news channels have become tv shows more interested in viewer ratings than news.When will journalists become journalists again.
    Enviromental groups-socialist anticapitalists not interested in climate just manipulation and social control.Weve forgotton what saving the planet is really about.CO2 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
    A win for the little guy? .Will common sense take control again.Hope so.

  200. geronimo (01:03:48) :

    realclimate are alive and well and have published an article by a guy from Oxford University that is critical of realclimate. What’s going on?

    It is alive. But it is not well, not well at all. And it’s getting worse for them.

    What’s going on? You shouldn’t expect too much from Gavin Schmidt and Michael Mann. They are not as smart as people think a scientist should be. Don’t look for a deep answer. Lower your expectations and things will begin to make sense.

  201. Mike McMillan (01:33:20) :

    Gerard (20:53:48) :

    King Canute (Obama) eloquently telling the sun not to make the 2 degrees warmer – a snowballs chance in hell!

    That’s 2 °C saved or created by the Obama Administration.

    Yes, that’s what their own ‘Baghdad Bob’, Robert Gibbs, would claim.

  202. “John Sauven, executive director of Greenpeace UK, said: “The city of Copenhagen is a crime scene tonight, with the guilty men and women fleeing to the airport.”

    Lydia Baker of Save the Children said world leaders had “effectively signed a death warrant for many of the world’s poorest children. Up to 250,000 children from poor communities could die before the next major meeting in Mexico at the end of next year.””

    This stuff is pure gold. Their writers must be geniuses.
    By all means, line up the “guilty parties” before an eco-nazi firing squad, for murdering 250,000 children. Yes, that’s the ticket.

    Actually, I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. Where they turn their quivering, enraged accusatory finger at us, the skeptics. Oh, how they would love to line us up!

  203. The green movement will consider anything but the absolute destruction of mankind to be a “failure” in some respect. I’m ashamed to admit I once counted myself among their numbers.

  204. Obama walks on stage to do his famous pull the rabbit out of his hat trick. He takes his hat off puts it on the table reaches in and finds out he has packed the wrong hat, This one does not have the top that flips open. Meanwhile the rabbit who is very, very bored gets out from the bottom of its cage in the table with the trap door on top and hops away into the distance. Obama declares it a success since he managed to take his hat off.

  205. Ok, now it’s time to buckle up for Mexico in 6 months time – we need to cancel this so no further works is made on this crap.

    Where is the link for the lady politician who wanted to ban carbon, anyone?

  206. Seems that Mother Nature has been playing “Whack A Mole” with most of the delegates!

    This report just in from Hound News (the liberal dog side of Fox News). The following conversation was heard throughout the conference hall in several different languages Friday night: “Mr. Chairman, we should come to a binding agre…(ring, ring RING, RING RING RING) xcuse me, (yes…what!?! You don’t say, how deep? More on the way??? Get me a plane ticket!)…ement. We need money to pay for all this sno…er…global warming that has been com…er…foisted on us! But let’s talk later. Gotta run. My camel is waiting.”

  207. Just thought of something. If this stuff actually goes through, the UK, along with the other signers of the noted agreement to look good, will have to come up with a new University that figures out a new formula to cause the temperature to drop 2 C! And then we will have to take them to task for lowering the temperature to suit their political agenda!

  208. Unwise to crow, Anthony (re your Simpsons cartoon). We didn’t win in Copenhagen. Our arguments were just not presented. The warmists will now regroup and another agreement will be reached in 2010.
    If God were actually on our side they’d all be holed up in Copenhagen by the weather for three months, learning to look out of the window occasionally. (Would the Danish prostitutes extend their offers in that case? We’ll never know).

  209. [quote]DR (21:10:50) :

    Who cares about Copenhagen when there is the EPA![/quote]

    The EPA is certainly the greatest threat to the US. It’s going to take them quite a while to get this one through the challenges. Let us hope that industries that fight this battle go in well equipped.

    I’d love to see the warmists try to prove their case in court if we get a fair judge, but on that issue, don’t ever let anyone tell you that it does not matter who is POTUS. Our country has been transformed by activist judges and they are proliferatiing like dandelions in spring.

  210. The current chaos in the AGW movement resulting from Copenhagen allows for a window for progression toward more open science and independent thought.

    The need now is a fundamental philosophy that supports open science and independent thought. We have just seen the kind philosophy that causes the failure that is based on government influence/control of science and the lack of independence/integrity of most media.

    Ultimately, it is the battle for a certain system philosophical. Systems that support a rational, scientific and open structure are needed.

    The philosophical approach is hard, but of such things are cultures made of.

  211. Brian (08:27:46) :

    The green movement will consider anything but the absolute destruction of mankind to be a “failure” in some respect. I’m ashamed to admit I once counted myself among their numbers.

    There are real conservationists out there and their aim is not to punish mankind for it’s existence. We need to care for our inheritance because it should remind us that we are a part of this magnificent planet.

    There is no moral imperative for us to preserve anything, but would we be happy in a world devoid of a link to our own development?

    The environmentalists are not intersted in science much less biology. They are full of hatred for what must be the most unlikely outcome of evolution. The universe looking at it’s self through man.

  212. Never forget that the political class (bureaucrats) pushing for carbon exchanges and massive transfers of wealth are the same that slowly and surely pushed Europe into the EU. Their backers are those who will benefit financially from the AGW market (Golden Slacks, GE, Hedge Funds, and all manner of bureaucracy and NGO) They don’t take no for an answer, and with each summit and conference, they take a tiny bit more power and money. They are like the undead, and just when you think you’re done with them, they come back at you from another angle. This whole thing is about money, which means that there is infinite incentive for those who wish to profit. Beware.

  213. Friends:

    In a presentation I gave at York University in October I said;

    “The desires of developing and developed countries for the Treaty are directly opposed and the negotiations are deadlocked. But something will come out of No-Hope-in-Hagen because it has to. That is the nature of politics.”

    So, what did come out of the Conference?
    Meaningless words, nothing but meaningless words.

    Developed countries will provide to developing countries up to $30 billion for 2010-12, with the intention of increasing this to $100 billion by 2020. This will be “scaled up, new and additional, predictable and adequate funding” to developing countries via a “Copenhagen Green Fund” with a “Technology Mechanism” to “accelerate technology development and transfer” to developing countries.

    Simply, nothing on climate except meaningless words but a completion of the Gleneagles Agreement for Third World Aid that was decided a year ago. And that agreement is meaningless words, too.

    So, what do I conclude from that? Take hope, the end is nigh (for AGW) !!

    AGW is dead. Its corpse will rot and the smell of it will pervade the world when CoP16 meets in Mexico.

    But something else (‘ocean acidification’?) will take the place of AGW and we need to be ready to fight that coming monster.

    For now we can rejoice that the giant of AGW has been slain while we enjoy the Festive Season.

    Seasons Greetings.

    Richard

  214. Great news. In the coming years, temperatures will continue to dive, harsher winters will expand, so will glaciers. More scientists will shift camps and more climategate scandals will unravel. This minor treaty will plateau in a few years, than be shredded.
    I wonder what the next environmental catastrophe is supposed to be?

  215. Galen Haugh (20:58:06) :

    “It would also have crippled the US economy had we gone along with it, and we’d never be able to pay off the huge debt owed the Chinese. Either way it went, it wasn’t good for the Chinese.

    So they said “Nyet” after conferring with their Russian neighbors, who have energy-exportion ambitions of their own and suspicions about the “science” too. China deflected criticism by saying they would not give up their national sovereignty.”

    I never thought in my lifetime that I’d see a point when we should look to China as the leader of rational thought in international relations. I wish our glorious leader would be 10% as pragmatic and even slightly concerned with our sovereignty.

    What a wonderful demonstration in Copenhagen of the glories of one world governance! So this is how the greenies/lefties think we should organize the world? I don’t think so

    Here’s your choice: A democratic anarchy of the oligarchy like COP15 where competing interest can never be resolved, or an appointed autocracy that can make decisions but never answers to the citizenry.

    Your choice!

  216. “Gordon Brown hailed the night as a success on five out of six measures”

    That doesn’t sound very encouraging… :-)

    I notice that the comment recommendations are strongly in favour of the sceptics. Do you suppose the moderators take any notice, or just redouble their efforts to silence the more effective ones?

  217. Actually Copenhagen has been extremely successful for the globalist elites who now own us, thanks to our dumbed down, fluoride addicted idiot, idol worshipping peoples who are intent on marching into their own doom.

    They have managed to squeeze out a commitment from “the Nations” (yes, I mean that in the biblical sense – that’s us scumbags by the way the “United Nations”) to a progressively increasing global tax aledgedly to be spent on “stopping the planet from warming by more than 2 degrees”.

    Ermmm, hello!? Don’t you realise what is happening here. [snip] Stop the planet from changing temperature? Excuse me while I rearrange the positions of some of my favourite galaxies why we are at it. Can I have some money for that please?

    I was watching Sky “News” (sic) this morning (it was on at a freind’s house, I don’t have it at home). I cannot beleive the blatent, Hilteresk propaganda about climate change, and “doing your bit”, with a popular celeb telling people how self-evident climate change is in Africa and at the launching of Sky’s new weekly updates of the UK’s emmissions [I am not joking, they are actually going to have a “feel-guilty-ometer” updated weekly to brainwash our kids into willingly paying huge taxes to an unelected bunch of Satan worshippers who want to kill 90% of the people on the planet – check out the Georgia GuideStones and related media].

    Don’t you realise how serious this is? We are becoming 1930’s Germany here – most people don’t even seem to realise it. The evidence is of this is abound.

    Do something before they come for your children. Probably beginning with voluntary restricted birth and followed by increased additions of sterilisers to the water supply, and then by physical sterilisation requiring a permit to procreate and of course a prison sentence for anyone who says they don’t want to pay this stupid tax to Satan’s little helpers.

  218. AdderW (09:04:29) :

    that is Bonn, Germany in 6 months, Mexico in a years time

    Bonn, Germany? I think they already had one there in June. But yes, COP16 will be in Mexico City next November, unless Gore, Brown, and others convince them to hold it next summer. Of course! Think of the propaganda value of all those folks, sweat dripping from them because the air conditioners “broke”. They could have all kinds of ice sculptures shipped in, at great expense so they can say “See? The ice is MELTING! This is what’s happening now to our ice caps and glaciers.” They could even arrange them so the water would run to an area with mock-ups of cities, so people could watch them “flood”. Oh, the possibilities are endless.

  219. Pamela Gray (08:52:23) :

    “……will have to come up with a new University that figures out a new formula to cause the temperature to drop 2 C”

    No, now all they have to do is nothing ie it won’t rise by 2 deg C. Thinking about it they would probably mess that up as well.

  220. Dermot Carroll (06:13:34) :

    “One thing that concerns me about this, is how the third and developing world sees the west/developed world.”

    Several of the potential responses:

    – Who cares? Didn’t you see the reaction to the $100B/year offer… “Why that’s not nearly enough, you capitalist pigs!
    – The dictators will be pissed because their budget fie palaces will be lowered.
    – It’s all Kabuki theater. The total game is about money transfers. The rest is just an act.

  221. I don’t really ‘do’ conspiracy theories,

    Using Occam’s Razor, cock ups are usually the reasons for weird and ridiculous things.

    But despite the over – the – top style of this US TV series, there are interesting parts of this six part programme.

    Not least Dick Lindzen & Christopher Monckton!

  222. son of mulder (03:02:13) :

    ” P Gosselin (01:33:02) :

    Consider it dead and buried.”

    No, consider it like the fairground game… as the head of one clown is bashed down another will pop up somewhere else.
    =========

    CAWG’s impetus has been lost. It’s seen as a losing, time-wasting issue. The trendies and camp followers will take notice and drop away. The tide has turned. There will still be waves assaulting the shore, but they won’t reach the high-water mark. I see four positive results:

    1. CAWG activists will lose their ability to muster the troops in large CO2 demonstrations, letter-writing campaigns, boycotts, etc.

    2. This will strengthen the hand of those within environmental organizations who are not dioxide dystopians, so less stress will be put on the CO2 issue.

    3. Only in the context of an international agreement of some sort is the EPA’s proposed regulation legally defensible. (EPA’s head has already conceded in testimony that unilateral US action would be inconsequential.) It could therefore be challenged in court on that ground.

    4. It will be less dangerous for scientists and journals to publish non-consensus findings, for public figures to express doubts, etc. Hitherto, there was a need by alarmists to minimize defections and present the appearance of a united front in order to avoid undermining the prospects for success at Copenhagen. Now that a treaty seems out of reach, there won’t be such a strong motive to “whip” defectors and renegades into line. Over time, the consensus will de-laminate.

  223. First Fallout: On Fox News “Bill Nye The Science Guy” was talking about how it’s too hard to get a treaty by it’s important for the USA to lead… He was winding up to what I expect was to be an “EPA needs to act” but got cut off for an Obama speach about health management…

    But I think this points where the spin is headed: “The USSA has to go it alone via the EPA to set a good example.”

    Copenhagen is over, time to move on to the EPA…

    (Oh, Obama now pumping the “progress” in Copenhagen. Hyping ‘clean engergy economy and legislation’… “we’re leading” rahrah..)

  224. savethesharks (19:36:19) :
    “…Total storm snowfall totals of 1 to 2 feet are forecast to occur
    in the Baltimore-Washington metropolitan areas by dawn Sunday… which
    should eclipse the December records for both cities. The record
    December snowfall for Washington is 12.0 inches on 18-19 December
    1932… and for Baltimore to record is 14.1 inches on 12-13 December 1960.

    “Weather constraints”……heh heh.

    I’m sorry but this is too…..

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. LOL LMAO ROLF…”

    Reply: I agree, too funny for words…

    However, we must not take our eye off the ball, as the next scam starts to be activated. Never forget that we, the population of the globe, have to embrace world government if it is to succeed. CAGW only failed because the climate failed to cooperate and caused scepticism to grow to epidemic proportions.

    Sean Peake (00:04:55) :
    “This battle may be won but the war still rages. Let’s not get too smug. There are powerful forces afoot and we are badly outnumbered. Lets keep pressing forward. If we lose focus they will gain the advantage. This is not a victory, it is a diversion.”

    I think you’re right. This debate was never about AGW, rather it is about power and money. However, we are not outnumbered. It’s the other way round, we are many and they are few. We just need to organise ourselves better.

    Anyone got any idea what they’ll try next?

  225. Jeremy (20:27:25) :

    The BBC are asking for your opinion, however, they filter on many words like hoax etc. The thought police are trying to ensure that comments remain positive.

    “Welcome to duloc such a perfect town here we have some rules, let us lay them down, don’t make waves, stay in line, and we’ll get along fine, duloc is a perfect place”

    And the UK used to allow free speech! Now it is turning positively FASCIST.

    ——————–

    And don’t even think about taking photo’s any more. Surface Stations Project in the UK? Forget it! Or maybe just do it to make a point. But do expect to be arrested and detained under anti-terror legislation if you do. Think I’m joking? Do some easily done research on the internet and find out about the state of photography in the UK.

  226. @Mark_0454

    10 to 1? Are you kidding? It would seem from the comments that Michael Mann’s credibility is completely in the toilet.

    The best thing for him to do is to
    1) keep very quiet for a while
    2) get some legal counsel, because Uncle Sam and PennU may have some questions for him re. (Federal) funding for his research
    3) practice flipping burgers. He may need the skills.

  227. Brian (08:27:46) :

    “The green movement will consider anything but the absolute destruction of mankind to be a “failure” in some respect. I’m ashamed to admit I once counted myself among their numbers.”

    Welcome to the dark side. Here’s a couple of tips:

    1) When Al Gore speaks, just ask yourself “Would I buy a used planet from this man?”

    2) Over here, we don’t have Schneider’s pesky ethical dilemma of deciding between honesty and effectiveness.

    3) You can posit an argument without having to link it to the deaths of thousands of children if your agenda doesn’t happen.

    4) Over here, you can call them as you see them. Temperature declines don’t have to be described as “masks for heat that is in the pipeline”. Increases of polar ice do not have to be referred to as an “accelerating decline”

    5) The phrase “specious and without merit” is never used here.

    6) Most difficult for new members of the dark side is adapting to the non-use of circular arguments. Strangely, when Briffa says that we assume an anthropogenic cause of treering divergence to prove anthropogenic warming, we merely shake our heads and say, [snip]

    Again welcome! It will take some time to shake the crap off.

  228. The agreement aims to provide $30bn in funding for poor countries to adapt to climate change from next year to 2012, and $100bn a year after 2020.

    And how much of this taxpayer money ‘for poor countries’ will be spent on a (democratically unaccountable?) bureaucratic supra-national ‘global governance’ structure? How much will be spent on lining the private pockets of corrupt Third World dictators?

  229. BBC news website currently has Copenhagen non agreement as lead story, trouble its not in the 10 ten read stories.

    No ones interested !!!!

  230. http://www.infowars.com/copenhagen-accord-establishes-global-government-framework/

    Although the final Copenhagen agreement is largely being dismissed as a failure by both the mainstream media and climate skeptics, it does establish the framework for a global government which will control climate finances via taxes on CO2 emissions, as Lord Monckton warned on The Alex Jones Show this week.

    Monckton said that the main goal of Copenhagen was to “establish the mechanism, the structure, and above all the funding for a world government.”

    “They are going to take from the western countries the very large financial resources required to do that.” Monckton said, adding “They will disguise it by saying they are setting up a $100 billion fund for adaptation to climate change in third world countries, but actually, this money will almost all be gobbled up by the international bureaucracy.”

    The final text of the accord states that funds obtained from climate financing will be controlled by a “governance structure,” and that a “High Level Panel” will be appointed to decide where the money will come from. In effect, this means that a UN-controlled structure of global governance will override the sovereignty of nation states in collecting and doling out funds obtained under the justification of climate change.

    As Monckton explained, these funds will come from a global tax on financial transactions and a tax on GDP. Earlier draft versions of the agreement spelled this out in detail, but the final version leaves it more vague, merely stating the funds will be collected “from a wide variety of sources, public and private, lateral and multilateral.”

    As information that was leaked in the first few days of the conference revealed, the money will not even go to the UN, but it will go straight to the IMF and World Bank who will then lend it at loan shark rates to poorer countries, thus further indebting them to the global government and advancing climate colonialism.

    The agreement also gives the green light for carbon trading markets, which as we have documented are all owned by climate kingpins like Maurice Strong and Al Gore, to be more heavily financed and expanded.

    Many elements of the final text have been watered down and the agreement has little teeth in terms of enforcing national limits on CO2 emissions, which is why many in the skeptic camp are celebrating the apparent failure of the conference.

    The Club For Growth organization said that Obama’s failure to get developing nations to agree to more draconian measures has “probably saved thirty million jobs” in America.

    “I am greatly relieved that the last-minute agreement President Obama negotiated is being widely described as ‘meaningful.’ When politicians call something ‘meaningful,’ that means it isn’t,” states their press release.

    However, Copenhagen delegates have already promised to convene another series of meetings next year to strengthen what is spelled out in the final agreement.

    Globalists are persistent and they will continue hammering away until they get what they want, not because the environment is on the verge of collapse, but because their agenda for world government is stalling as more people find out the true agenda behind the global warming scam.

    This is why we need to be more vigilant than ever and keep the elite on the back foot. While it’s true that the globalists have failed to achieve the entirety of what they set out for, they are still moving forward with their agenda by taking baby steps rather than giant leaps.

    We have slowed the juggernaut of global government, but it continues to grind forward, which is why we need to continue to awaken more people so that we can have greater strength in pushing back and resisting the tyranny that the globalists want to enforce by taxing and regulating the very life-giving gas that we all breathe.
    pdf version here:
    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/science/20091219-climate-text.pdf

  231. “Derryman said, I suggest that for all their wailing we won’t see too many Greenpeace activists protesting in Tiananmen Square.”

    … The Chinese have a two-word answer for activists that Greenpeace protesters find totally convincing: “Chinese gulag”.

  232. Tenuc (10:47:57) “We just need to organise ourselves better.”

    “We” are a very diverse bunch who have wide-ranging fundamental “internal” disagreements – somewhat of a loose & ephemeral federation that may one day fly apart after serving a(n important) transient purpose. Alarmist operatives have access to massive financial resources; “we” do not.

    The time is ripe for the emergence of new, more pure, competing environmentalisms. [It is telling that the spell-checker does not even recognize the plural of this word – unity is assumed.]

    “Grassroots groups driving China’s green leap forward”
    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091218/china_environment_091218/20091219?hub=TopStoriesV2

    The word “grassroots” should not be taken literally. An important aspect of “grassroots” activity is the channeling of sufficient resources to key operatives. We can learn from Chinese culture about pragmatism.

    Both harmony & dissonance are found in the beauty of nature and diversity is the key to survival. The environmental movement needs a shot of internal competition.

    Initially, the funding for competing environmental thinking might come from the right. This can stimulate a left rethink about where uniformity has gone wrong. For context: I am a liberal, an ecologist, & an environmentalist (as well as an independent climate researcher) who is asking the right for leadership on this file because the left has fumbled the ball so badly. I am also asking China to help the West bring about a more sober era. Diversity, accomplishable through recombination, is the key to survival. As Putin said, we stand solidly looking to the future. Risk is part of the beauty of nature and it need not be cause for alarm.

  233. canadaguy (08:41:13) :

    Copenhagen has failed. The UN has failed to address the most important crisis in human history.

    By “important crisis” I assume you mean the magical mythical “manmade warming” crisis? Not that it matters, since it doesn’t exist except in the fevered imaginations of climate bedwetters, but the UN couldn’t succeed in addressing an envelope, let alone some worldwide crisis.

  234. Our fearless leader, Rudd says today:
    “Australia will do no more and no less than the rest of the world, and that is our position”

    We will take a strong stance of leading from the middle.

  235. Hmmm… well, so much for that.

    When I saw the news that a snowstorm was heading for Copenhagen, and that the US delegation had to return home early because of a noreaster threatening eastern North America, I thought to myself, “God DOES have a sense of humor! He really DOES!” :D

  236. Tenuc (10:47:57) :

    Never forget that we, the population of the globe, have to embrace world government if it is to succeed.

    I’d have to disagree. How many of the people in Europe embraced the EU Constitution or voted for the recently sworn in President of the EU. These folks don’t care a jot for what the people of their nations or the world want, because they all believe, in their heart of hearts, that they know much better than any of us what is good for us and what we need. Which, of course, is them endowed with the power to monitor and control every aspect of our lives. And they don’t require people to embrace their ideas, they only require that their constant propaganda campaigns and promises of something for nothing will be sufficient to prevent any real organized resistance from forming, until the groundwork has been laid for their plans. Once that is accomplished, the the dishonesty and thuggery, which they have demonstrated a complete willingness to utilize, till now in a somewhat restrained fashion, will be unleashed completely unrestrained. For examples of where that might lead, consider the histories of Stalin, Mao, and Castro, who shared their childishly naive vision of nature and human nature as totally malleable constructs, which only their lack of power to manipulate and control has prevented from achieving perfection.
    As has been noted by many over the years the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Unfortunately, that vigilance has always been subject to erosion by complacency, while the enemies of liberty have demonstrated, in what is perhaps their one halfway admirable quality, a dogged persistence in pursuit of their goals. That persistence has brought them to the very threshold of success and no setbacks imaginable are likely to dissuade them from crossing it. The only thing that could possibly stop them is a worldwide movement in support of freedom and liberty possessed of an equal level of passion and persistence. But you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone, and freedom and liberty, once achieved, are all to easy to take for granted. In contemplating the future it seems that the question of humanity’s descent into total despotism is no longer one of if, but one of when. I desperately hope that I am wrong about this, but clinging to that hope becomes increasingly difficult, with each passing day.
    They made a movie recently about a planetary apocalypse coming in 2012, and in reading about it I found I couldn’t resist the thought that if such a scenario did manifest itself, our fate would be in many ways richly deserved. The history of humankind has been a long and halting struggle to achieve a world where any individual is free to live as he chooses. Our willingness to sacrifice the freedom to live to an illusory freedom from want has been an abject betrayal of all who suffered and died to advance humanity’s cause and I personally have felt a mounting sense of shame that my own efforts to stop the “Barbarians at the Gate” have been so much less than was merited by the stakes in this struggle.

  237. tokyoboy (00:43:02) :

    “Sorry OT, but I now would like to identify CRU mail(s) stating someone has actually deleted data file(s) to circumvent FOIA requests from “contrarians”.
    Anyone in the know please help me.”

    Find anything in the searchable database of all the emails

    http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php

    Oh WTH , I’ll do it for you

    http://www.bing.com/search?q=searchable+database+FOI+climate+email+delete&go=&form=QBRE&filt=all&qs=n

    Try the first result. That should work.

  238. Paul Vaughan (12:36:52) :

    [“Tenuc (10:47:57) “We just need to organise ourselves better.”}

    “The time is ripe for the emergence of new, more pure, competing environmentalisms. [It is telling that the spell-checker does not even recognize the plural of this word – unity is assumed.]”

    Totally agree. The current ‘green’ movement is based on the believe than mankind is harmful to the planet. A new paradigm is needed which is based on solid scientific knowledge so that humanity can prosper in a sustainable way. Until we have developed the wisdom to understand the impact we are having on the ecosystem, the wrong decisions will keep being made.

  239. There were only 190 countries at the Copenhagen Conference…..and they couldn’t arrive at a consensus on temperature limits. How in the heck did Al Gore get a consensus out of 5000 scientists?

  240. Re: Jim Watson (20:50:25) :
    “Hugo Chavez had it wrong: The “ghost” haunting Copenhagen wasn’t Capitalism.
    It was Climategate.”

    That’s right, Jim, it was Climategate, even though Communism brought back from 2 decades in “cryogenic freeze” was featured prominently in the proceedings.

    Check out this compilation:
    “Anatomy of Copenhagen’s Obaminable Failure” http://bit.ly/67SSmT

    The next step is to get behind the Realist Scientists on this issue and push the re-evaluation of the data, assumptions, and theory, on a broad front.

  241. Dave Wendt (13:50:33) :
    “[Tenuc (10:47:57) :
    Never forget that we, the population of the globe, have to embrace world government if it is to succeed.”]

    “I’d have to disagree. How many of the people in Europe embraced the EU Constitution or voted for the recently sworn in President of the EU. These folks don’t care a jot for what the people of their nations or the world want, because they all believe, in their heart of hearts, that they know much better than any of us what is good for us and what we need.”

    Dave, I agree that what is happening to create an USE (United States of Europe) is dispicable and probably against the will of the people; we don’t know because we weren’t allowed a vote. However, forming a world government is an order of magnitude above this in level of difficulty. If it was forced through without a large public agreement it would cause the very conflict it was being set up to prevent.

  242. E. M. Smith,

    “Copenhagen is over, time to move on to the EPA…”

    I presume that means emissions will be controlled by direct regulation and will not involve trading CO2. If so, this denies the main actors the means to enrich themselves through the scam. That in one sense represents their defeat. In another sense it is everyone’s defeat.

  243. The headline from the “scientific” journal New Scientist “Copenhagen chaos sets world on track for 3.5C”. “scientists at the talks said it would set the world on a path to 3.5 ºC of warming by 2100”

    The present temperature trend since Nov 1997 is slightly negative. If the temperature is to increase by 3.5C by 2100, the trend has to dramatically increase to more than 0.4C/decade. Even a trend of 0.2C/ decade lies outside the ±95% uncertainty intervals at the moment.

    Mother nature doesnt seem to be following the instructions of the scientists talking in Copenhagen.

  244. The global warming people have neither given up, nor gone away.

    This is from the British Brainwashing Corporation
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8423097.stm

    “Hopes for Mexico
    Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), told India’s NDTV news channel: “We will have to build on it. We will have to make sure it moves quickly towards the status of a legally binding agreement and therefore I think the task for the global community is cut out.”

    Global warming: A future glimpse
    Germany will host the next climate change conference in six months in Bonn, to follow up the work of the Copenhagen summit.

    The final outcome is supposed to be sealed at a conference in Mexico City at the end of 2010.”

  245. michael savage said it best this week about the weather in Copenhagen during the summit – “God is mocking them”

    give it a name (Irony, bad luck, divine intervention), but this type of weather follows these idiots wherever they go. Although I am skeptical of all things religious, it does raise my spirits to think that there may be something watching over us and protecting us. We certainly need it. the other side is too large, too well organized and funded, and too well connected.

    the majority of US population is asleep and/or stupid. is Hope and change working out for anyone out there?

  246. http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2009/12/18/czech-president-klaus-global-warming-science-new-religion/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+foxnews%252Fscitech+%2528FOXNews.com+-+SciTech%2529

    “Klaus, the second president of the Czech Republic since the fall of communism, is often called the Margaret Thatcher of Central Europe. In the interview, he sounded more like Winston Churchill, vowing to defend liberty and freedom from those who would restrain global economic growth.

    “I’m absolutely convinced that the very small global warming we are experiencing is the result of natural causes,” Klaus told FoxNews.com. “It’s a cyclical phenomenon in the history of the Earth. The role of man is very small, almost negligible.””

    “We’ll be the victims of irrational ideology. They will try to dictate to us how to live, what to do, how to behave,” Klaus said. “What to eat, travel, and what my children should have. This is something that we who lived in the communist era for most of our lives — we still feel very strongly about. We are very sensitive in this respect. And we feel various similarities in their way of arguing or not arguing. In the way of pushing ahead ideas regardless of rational counter-arguments.”

    “I lived in a communist world where politicians told us what to do,” Klaus said. “I don’t think politicians or presidents should suggest to firms what to do. That has always been a mistake.”

  247. Hypenhagen is just the first victory of the truth campaign.
    Now we can keep pushing back until the AGW scam joins eugenics and tulip manias and other popular delusions in the ash heap of history.

  248. Kate (04:02:24) :
    “Hopes for Mexico
    Rajendra Pachauri: … “Germany will host the next climate change conference in six months in Bonn, to follow up the work of the Copenhagen summit.”

    Kate, I believe Pachauri was confused – that conference already happened back in June. There is no climate change conference scheduled in Bonn (or none that I can find) for 2010.
    There is a push by Gore, Brown, and others to try to re-schedule COP16 for this summer, though.

  249. Quote: “Darn! Now we’re all going to fry because Al Gore won’t get a chance to turn the heat down with his billion dollar thermostat.”

    Darn! Now we’re all going to fry because Al Gore has turned up the heat at the earth’s core to several million degrees with his billion dollar thermostat.”
    There, fixed it! :-)

  250. Kate (04:02:24) : The global warming people have neither given up, nor gone away.

    They never will. Not even if the world cools. Its not about Global Warming its about the money.

    Why else would warnings of doom get ever more frantic? “Scientists at the talks said it would set the world on a path to 3.5 ºC of warming by 2100.

    They say this when the very latest temperature records at the moment are showing we are not even on course for a 1 ºC warming and even bets for a cooling.

    Hopefully mother nature will make it more difficult for them to convince the world of Global warming in 2010. But mother nature is neutral. She goes along her merry way oblivious and unconcerned with the political meetings and taxes to decide her fate.

  251. Re: Kate (03:34:28)

    Can you (or anyone else) provide link(s) to articles about nature preserves / parks being destroyed to make way for windmills &/or solar panels? (This is the kind of thing that sets me off like nothing else.)

  252. It’s official, soon to be in the lexicon and dictionary:

    Obaminable
    Adj. description of an abominable mistake, dishonest, disagreeable or unpleasantry increasingly common from B.H. Obama.
    ex: Copenhagen’s Obaminable Failure
    tags: obama, abominable, disagreeable, dishonest, unpleasant

  253. FAILURE? NOT REALLY! IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY AFTER ALL

    “Richard North has two articles in the newspapers today, both on the extraordinary financial conflicts of interest in the IPCC process.

    In the Telegraph, he and Christopher Booker look at how IPCC boss Rajendra Pachauri has reaped vast sums of money from his involvement in the trade in carbon credits:

    What has also almost entirely escaped attention, however, is how Dr Pachauri has established an astonishing worldwide portfolio of business interests with bodies which have been investing billions of dollars in organisations dependent on the IPCC’s policy recommendations.

    These outfits include banks, oil and energy companies and investment funds heavily involved in ‘carbon trading’ and ‘sustainable technologies’, which together make up the fastest-growing commodity market in the world, estimated soon to be worth trillions of dollars a year.

    Forget ‘Big Oil’ – this is ‘Big Carbon’ making the most of a ‘business opportunity’ that was created by the first climate treaty at Kyoto in 1997.

    The frenzied negotiations we have just seen were never about ‘saving the planet’. They were always about money. At stake was this new ‘climate change industry’ which last year ripped off £129billion from the global economy and is heading for that trillion-pound bonanza by 2020 – but only if the key parts of the Kyoto treaty could be renewed.

    http://bishophill.squarespace.com/

  254. Why won’t Copenhagen just lay down and DIE?

    Gordon Brown embarrasses himself again, and drags Milliamp down with him.

    From the London Standard
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23786545-miliband-china-hijacked-summit-and-prevented-climate-deal.do

    Gordon Brown today tried to regain the initiative on climate change by calling for a change in the way UN negotiations are conducted. In a Downing Street podcast, the Prime Minister accused a small number of countries of holding the Copenhagen talks to ransom.

    He did not name the culprits, but Sudan, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Cuba tried to resist a deal being signed, said government sources.

    Mr Brown may push ahead next year with a “Plan B” to rescue the deal, with radical plans to get the EU to show a lead by increasing its own emissions cuts from 20 per cent to 30 per cent.

    Energy Secretary Ed Miliband today described the summit as a “chaotic process dogged by procedural games” and singled out China as having vetoed agreements on emissions. But Mr Brown and Mr Miliband believe that a diluted deal was better than nothing at all.

  255. Paul Vaughan (11:31:43) :
    Re: Kate (03:34:28)
    Can you (or anyone else) provide link(s) to articles about nature preserves / parks being destroyed to make way for windmills &/or solar panels? (This is the kind of thing that sets me off like nothing else.)

    …There is a great deal of information about this, so it helps to be as specific as possible when searching for it. For example a search for “wind farms” will provide links which will have you reading for months, but “wind farms + Cumbria” will be more focused on what you may want.

    Anyway, this is an overview of the situation as I see it at present.

    Why the so-called “Green Economy” is destroying large parts of the Earth

    The state we are in.
    1.) We have witnessed a fantastic evolution of the internal combustion engine to a level where it’s entirely clean and no threat to the environment.
    2.) We will have new technologies in the future, but only if they are better and more economical compared to the technology they replace, not by Government dictate.

    3.) The so called “Green Economy” is a Ponzi scheme because:
    1. The necessity for the introduction of the “Green conomy” is based on the carbon dioxide = global warming lie.
    2. The so-called “Green Solutions” are a hoax and a waste of money because they don’t deliver the power we need and they operate at very high costs. These costs are so high that a Green Economy can’t exist. It is a scheme directed at the continuation of a fossil fuel economy which will be at much higher prices, only serving the fat cats that have a stake in Carbon Trading.
    3. The so-called “Green Economy” is a front for the installation of a World Government gaining control over our resources, our financial Institutions, our markets and our lives; Green = acceptable version of communism.

    Flaws in the “Green” Economy

    Wind Energy
    Needs a conventional power generating back up, increasing your electricity bill by 500%
    Besides that, windmills kill birds and bats and they despoil the countryside.

    Solar
    Amortization takes longer than the economic life cycle, how economical is that?
    Besides that, solar needs a back-up system for night time.

    CO2 sequestration in coal plants
    Doubles the amount of coal per Kw energy delivered.
    Triples the price of electricity and doubles the speed of consuming our resources which is a bad idea with an ice age around the corner.

    Bio fuels
    Currently, the biggest people-killer.
    Ethanol: Competes with the food industry causing irresponsible price hikes.
    Before the financial crises 350 million people were living from 1,700 calories per day, now it’s 1.3 billion.
    Huge amounts of water are needed.
    The latest technology of ethanol production is based on the use of wood as a resource, which will result in deforestation.

    Diesel
    Jatropha Palm Oil, currently the biggest engine behind deforestation of tropical forests world wide.

    There is only a single green fuel that could work and that is bio fuel from algae. All others do more harm than good.

    Read Agenda 21 of the United Nations and http://green-agenda.com for more detailed information.

  256. Paul Vaughan (11:31:43) :
    Re: Kate (03:34:28)
    Can you (or anyone else) provide link(s) to articles about nature preserves / parks being destroyed to make way for windmills &/or solar panels? (This is the kind of thing that sets me off like nothing else.)

    …This is about the great “wind farms delusion”, held by our leaders.

    Wind farms will be a monument to an age when our leaders collectively went off their heads

    Let us be clear: Britain is facing an unprecedented crisis. Before long, we will lose 40% of our generating capacity. And unless we come up quickly with an alternative, the lights WILL go out. Not before time, the Confederation of British Industry later waded in, warning the Government it must abandon its crazy fixation with wind turbines as a way of plugging this forthcoming shortfall and instead urgently focus on far more efficient ways to meet the threat of a permanent, nationwide black-out.

    There are a few contenders for the title of the maddest thing that has happened in our lifetime. But a front-runner must be the way in which politicians of all parties have been seduced by the La-La Land promises of the wind power lobby.

    If you still haven’t made your mind up about wind power, just consider some of the inescapable facts – facts which the Government and the wind industry do their best to hide from us all. So far we have spent billions of pounds on building just over 2,000 wind turbines – and yet they contribute barely 1% of all the electricity that we need. The combined output of all those 2,000 turbines put together, averaging 700 megawatts, is less than that of a single, medium-sized conventional power station.

    What’s more, far from being ‘free’, this pitiful dribble of electricity is twice as expensive as the power we get from the nuclear, gas or coal-fired power stations which currently supply well over 90% of our needs – and we all pay the difference, without knowing it, through our electricity bills.

    But despite its best efforts to conceal the fact that wind turbines expensively and unreliably generate only a derisory amount of electricity, the Government keeps on telling us of its megalomaniac plans to build thousands more of them – at a cost of up to £100billion. The prime reason for this is that we are legally obliged by the European Union to generate 32% of our electricity from ‘renewable’ sources by 2020. And with just 11 years to go until that deadline, we hope to meet the target by building highly-subsidised wind turbines.

    But this is a farce. In fact, as the Government is privately well aware, there is not the faintest hope that we can do anything of the kind – even if we wanted to.

    Gordon Brown talks airily of building 4,000 offshore turbines by our target date – plus another 3,000 onshore. But this would mean sticking two of these 2,000-ton monsters, each the height of Blackpool Tower, into the seabed every day for the next 11 years. Nowhere in the world has it proved possible to install more than one of them a week. The infrastructure simply isn’t there to build more than a fraction of that figure. Furthermore, such are the weather conditions around Britain’s coasts that it is only possible to work on these projects for a few months every summer.

    Then there are the 3,000 promised onshore turbines – many of which are to be erected in the most beautiful stretches of Britain’s countryside. These are meeting with so much local hostility that the Government has continually had to bend the planning rules in order to force them through over the wishes of local communities and the democratic opposition of local councils.

    ————————-

    Obama talks about creating “five million green jobs” in the US. Meanwhile, as Mr Obama’s Nobel Prize-winning Energy Secretary, Stephen Chu, babbles on the BBC’s “Today” program about how the world’s energy needs can be met by wind and solar power, for which, he assured us, we would need to cover only 5% of the planet’s deserts with solar panels, a study shows that for every job created in Spain’s “alternative energy industry” since 2000, 2.2 others have been lost.

    In May 2009, the BBC and various newspapers excitably greeted the opening by Alex Salmond of Whitelee, “Europe’s largest onshore wind farm”, 140 giant 2.3 megawatt turbines covering 30 square miles of moorland south-east of Glasgow. It was happily reported that these would “generate” 322MW of electricity, “enough to power every home in Glasgow”. They won’t, of course, do anything of the kind. Due to the vagaries of the wind, this colossal enterprise will produce only 80MW on average, a quarter of its capacity and barely enough to keep half Glasgow’s lights on.

    It really is time people stopped recycling the thoroughly bogus propaganda claims of the wind industry in this way. Any journalist who still falls for these lies by confusing turbines’ “capacity” with their actual output is either thoroughly stupid or dishonest. The truth is that the 80MW average output of “Europe’s largest wind farm” is only a fraction of that of any conventional power station, at twice the cost. For this derisory amount of power, the hidden subsidy to Whitelee over its 25-year life will, on current figures, be £1 billion, paid by all of us through our electricity bills.

    Truly, our world has gone off its head, and no one seems to notice – not least those wretched MPs who allow all this to happen without having the faintest idea of what is really going on.

  257. Fake science is settled on lies, real science on laboratory succesful tests.
    Many of the institutions involved in the Climate Gate scandal have settled science in other areas, as in solar science where not a single theory has ever produced a succesful forecast. That is not science but Vodoo science. Unrepeatable phenomena are unsuccesful withcraft.

  258. “Unprecedented” is undoubtedly correct. Never before have so many done so much, for so long, and achieved so little.

    I am amused and shocked, shocked I tell you, to see little South Africa jumping hoops with the big boys.

    Then again, the big brain in the ZA delegation is Ms Joanne Yawitch, replete with MA in sustainable something, autographed copies of Steven Covey’s DIY books, and a diploma in kool aid from the WWF itself.
    See http://www.deat.gov.za/AboutUs/Department/joanne_bio.htm

    So, with no deal in sight, no takers to bankroll ZA’s energy spend, our fearless leaders opt for ubuntu: Shaft the other Africans (they won’t complain in public) cozy up to Barry & Wen and hope like hell they drop us some crumbs.

  259. Kate (02:45:56) “[…] Then there are the 3,000 promised onshore turbines – many of which are to be erected in the most beautiful stretches of Britain’s countryside. These are meeting with so much local hostility that the Government has continually had to bend the planning rules in order to force them through over the wishes of local communities and the democratic opposition of local councils. […] covering 30 square miles of moorland south-east of Glasgow […]”

    I appreciate the notes. It seems your government’s messaging is aimed at conveying certainty to markets & investors. If UK “environmentalists” are onboard with these schemes, they certainly appear corrupt (or severely naive).

    My overall impression is that Europe is paranoid that its energy supply-lines from outside the region will be cut off at some point in time in the future …or at least that its officials see profit in having the public believe this.

    It is very unfortunate that the enviro movement appears involved (i.e. complicit). As an ecologist, I see no environmental benefits stemming from the measures you describe. On the contrary, I see instability, controversy, & chaos being generated, which loosens our grip on nature preserves etc. Nature will survive natural [&/or anthropogenic] climate change given a network of places to do so. (I researched in this area extensively in the 90s.) Climate is not an environmental issue, but land use is.

  260. Re: Kate (02:45:56)

    Paul Vaughan (13:28:13) “It seems your government’s messaging is aimed at conveying certainty to markets & investors.”

    Added clarification: …i.e. they appear to be blowing bubbles (economic ones).

  261. Paul Vaughan (13:39:31) :

    …Thank you for your insights, which tally exactly with my own.

    The main driver for all the Government lying propaganda about global warming is the total hash the Labour Government has made of our future energy requirement. The government has a minister of “Energy and Climate Change”. Goal: To shut down electricity production. Much power generation has used natural gas from under the North Sea, but this is now running out. They can’t go back to coal because of EU pollution directives, and they have reversed their anti-nuclear position too late to fill the gap. All they are left with is sourcing natural gas from unreliable overseas sources like Russia, covering half the country in wind turbines – and desperately trying to do everything they can to get consumers to reduce demand – hence (at least in part) the convenient “fig leaf” of carbon dioxide reduction.

    On a positive note, they have made such a mess of the economy that power consumption has been reduced anyway.

    The UK ruling elite have gone insane. Really. The government, incredibly unpopular and desperately broke, is trying to “lead the world” in dragging the country down to King Canute levels of energy use. Even the Conservative Leader of the Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, David Cameron, has a windmill on his house.

    They’re all demented over there, in Government; their policy on global warming has been handed over to a committee for climate change, run by profiteers. It’s not in the control of Parliament.

    The scammers have taken over while the deluded in Parliament are bamboozled by the criminally insane.

    EUreferendum.com is a good web site to follow some of this, as well as climateresistance.com. Both explore the politics of it all.

  262. Kate (12:22:13) “The UK ruling elite have gone insane. Really.”

    If it’s any comfort, mainstream Canadian media has conveyed similar commentary (on the state of politics in the UK). I hope sensible minds find a peaceful & harmonious way (without further chaos) to prevail. I acknowledge the magnitude of the challenge.

  263. Paul Martin (04:26:05) :

    Why is it that North American television commentators pronounce East Anglia as if it were East Angola? (It’s pronounced ann-glee-ah.)

    Same reason they….oh forget it.

    The affectation which really gets me for some reason is when they and others pronounce “forward” as “fo-ward”, or “Florida” as “Flo-i-da”. One local broadcaster right from the midst of Idaho’s agricultural heartland decided to pronounce “Aggies” as “Augies” – a team’s nickname. I try not to watch much.

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