Quote of the Week #19

qotw_cropped

I’ll leave this one in the hands of Australian Climate Madness who gets credit for spotting this unbelievable quote from a supposed journalistic enterprise of integrity known as “The Age”. – Anthony

Astonishing quote from “The Age”

The Age reports on another “yoof” climate campaign wittily entitled “Youth Decide” (“you decide,” geddit? Link here.) in which the kids of today vote on which world they wish to inherit. Here are the three options:

Note they don’t include a mini Ice Age resulting from reduced solar activity

Even The Age pokes fun at the poll, wondering why we should pay attention to the opinion of 12 year olds (brainwashed at school by endless showings of An Inconvenient Truth in science class, rather than in politics class). But it also includes an almost unbelievable quote, revealing a great deal about The Age‘s view on the campaign to save the planet from climate change:

There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right.

In other words, give up trying to argue that the science is wrong. We’ve successfully pulled the wool over the public’s eyes now, mostly thanks to the misrepresentations in the media, and primarily thanks to the alarmist Fairfax (which includes The Age itself and The Sydney Morning Herald), and so who cares if it complete BS? We will achieve our political goals whatever happens now.

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Boudu
September 20, 2009 12:56 pm

Similarly there is little point arguing the existence of god / allah / budha / odin / flying spaghetti monster as so many people believe they exist, they might as well be real.
Oh, the wisdom of crowds !

Editor
September 20, 2009 1:11 pm

Just a restatement of the Thomas Theorem (attributed to Sociologist W.I. Thomas) “what is considered real is real in its consequences”.
Forward, Lemmings!

MyFriendOtis
September 20, 2009 1:18 pm

Boudo:
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage!

joe
September 20, 2009 1:18 pm

In europe on cnn and bbc the programming is 100% climate change all the time.
Almost every news story has a climate change angle, yesterday the two stories I saw repeated several times were the german freighters that took the northeast passage and bangladesh is flooding due to rising sea levels.
If I didn’t have the interwebs as a source of information I’d be digging a shelter for the coming climate apocalypse.
I think now it will take years of brutally cold winters and complete and total refutation of climate modeling and AGW before the average person would accept that the science was never settled.

Kath
September 20, 2009 1:19 pm

From the Science and Technology section of The Onion…
“Melting Ice Caps Expose Hundreds Of Secret Arctic Lairs”
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/melting_ice_caps_expose_hundreds?utm_source=a-section

Boudu
September 20, 2009 1:31 pm

MyFriendOtis (13:18:37) :
Ramen !

PaulH
September 20, 2009 1:31 pm

There is a similarly nonsensical yet disturbing quote from the good folks 😉 at Pew, as quoted in the Sept. 19 edition of the National Post in the article “Get ready for power prices to quadruple” :
“:Janet Peace, vice-president for markets and business strategy at the Arlington, Va.-based Pew Center on Global Climate Change, said there is no point in debating whether humans are to blame for rising global temperatures.
“Whether you believe the science or not, the train has left the station,” she told the audience of chief executives , government officials, economists and scientists.”
“Get ready for power prices to quadruple”
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2010166
(This article might require registered access to the National Post web site.)
Paul

rbateman
September 20, 2009 1:39 pm

Kath (13:19:53) :
So that’s what the UN was doing up there in the Arctic lately.

Editor
September 20, 2009 1:45 pm

joe (13:18:47) : “In europe on cnn and bbc the programming is 100% climate change all the time.
Almost every news story has a climate change angle, yesterday the two stories I saw repeated several times were the german freighters that took the northeast passage …..

That story was published here (Australia) too, of course. I was so angry that they just pump this stuff out without checking, that I wrote in and my letter was published:
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/letters/index.php/theaustralian/comments/dont_let_facts_interfere
YOUR article (“German ships break the ice on trade frontier”, 15/9) begins, “It is a symbol of global warming” and goes on to say that the voyage of two German container ships through the Russian Northeast Passage was “considered impossible until a few years ago”. What tosh.
The Russian Northeast Passage has been known to be navigable since the mid 1800s. Adolf Nordenskiold navigated the Northeast Passage from west to east in the Swedish steamship Vega in 1878, and in 1915 Russian hydrographer and surveyor Boris Vilkitsky made the passage from east to west.
The passage was used regularly and commercially by the USSR, and the only reason that the route was “impossible” for Western ships is that Moscow refused access.

The interesting thing is that the letter was edited in a way that (a) actually improved it and (b) showed that the newspaper had checked the information before publishing.
I hope they also had stern words for the “journalist” …..

Stephen Skinner
September 20, 2009 1:49 pm

Robert E. Phelan (13:11:16) :
Forward, Lemmings!
I’m sure you know that Lemmings don’t commit suicide by jumping off cliffs. I understand exactly your meaning but it is also ironic in this case considering the image of Lemmings leaping to their deaths was a fabrication!

Bruce Cobb
September 20, 2009 1:49 pm

“There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right.”
Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

Marian
September 20, 2009 2:03 pm

“12 year olds (brainwashed at school by endless showings of An Inconvenient Truth in science class, rather than in politics class). But it also includes an almost unbelievable”
What’s really disgusting about this BS. There’s cases where children come home from school after their brainwash session scared. Thinking they’re going to all drown because the icecaps are melting.
Al Gore and his Lying Alarmist Ilk should be made to eat 100s of DVD copies of that fraudulent disaster doco movie of his. If the signs are there and we get a continuing upward trend in Arctic sea-ice recovery in the next fews. All his predictions of it being ice free by 2013 will be nought!

AnonyMoose
September 20, 2009 2:17 pm

Stephen Skinner (13:49:44) :
But enough people believe that lemmings leap off of cliffs that it may as well be real.

Adam from Kansas
September 20, 2009 2:21 pm

The UK as a functioning modern society looks like it’ll be coming to an end in a few years, give or take the possibility of riots
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6832964.ece
Carbon footprint trials for exceeding your carbon ration, SERIOUSLY!? O.O

Kum Dollison
September 20, 2009 2:23 pm

Except, every time they Poll “Real” people it comes up raspberries.

Steve S.
September 20, 2009 2:24 pm

This should be Oregon’s motto.
“Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right”
There are so many causes and policies being advocated here based upon global warming that the village idiots feel smart.
Honestly, we have bridges, housing, growth, industry, energy, taxation and a litany of other matters being crafted with the worry of how they may effect climate. Or rather, save the planet.
Oregon’s press has been so parotting of the AGW dogma that the State is saturated with people, Just like that guy walking 350 miles, who are thoroughly conviced of the AGW threat.
Every day there’s more nonsense.
That motto fits them too perfectly.
I’ve witnessed many people who have already revealed that their comittment to the AGW movement will remain even if it is shown to be a complete fraud. It doesn’t matter and those lying will still be credible.
“We need the many policies anyway to reduce our reliance on foreign oil”.
Or
“Even without the warming problem our CO2 emissions are acidifying the oceans”.
Or
“We need these policies for progress in sustainability to preserve the environment and create jobs.”
etc etc etc

Al Gore's Holy Hologram
September 20, 2009 2:30 pm

Here’s a multiple choice question to ask the “youth”:
Should government force your parents to pay them:
a. None of their hard earned money
b. 20% of their hard earned money
c. 50% of their hard earned money
Guess what the answer will be?

rbateman
September 20, 2009 2:34 pm

Get ready for power prices to quadruple
Transcanada CEO
Carrie Tait, Financial Post
Published: Saturday, September 19, 2009
Related Topics
Hal Kvisle
Janet Peace
Climatology
Earth Science
Pew Center on Global Climate Change
Todd Korol, Reuters Files Hal Kvisle, TransCanada president and CEO.
Electricity prices will quadruple as countries toughen their stance on greenhouse gas emissions, and governments need to brace the public for the price spike, a chief executive of a major power generating company said yesterday.
—9/11 and Pearl Harbor attacks weren’t this successful.
The US will grind to a halt within a few months. 10’s of millions thrown out of work. Agriculture crippled. Imports slashed when currency tanks. Trucking system put out of business. Idle airports. Abandoned ports. Empty shelves.
Did anyone stop to consider what quadrupling all forms of energy in short order would do?
All you have to do is to take a look at how bad the Western Economy tanked when oil hit $150/bbl. And they want to brace us for $300/bbl or worse. $12-16/gal gas.
Our transportation system runs on diesel. Period.
Manufacturing & commerical run on electricity. The cose of extraction and transport of coal will skyrocket.
With a treasury exhausted, it leaves little to the imagination.
Figure it out.

Paul Vaughan
September 20, 2009 2:39 pm

I looked for the dead birds around the windmills in “World 3”.

Jimmy Haigh
September 20, 2009 2:40 pm

Notice how it’s all ‘climate change’ now and not ‘global warming’.

Paul Vaughan
September 20, 2009 2:45 pm

Another inconsistency: Shouldn’t “World 3” have sprawling solar-panel-arrays in place of trees?

September 20, 2009 2:53 pm

“People will more readily believe the big lie than the little lie.” Hitler and the AGW movement have one thing in common: they know (knew) how to manipulate people. And sadly, people let themselves be duped. Believe me, if not for climate change, the world will find another fake crisis to take our money. The UN is already wanting to ciphon money from “rich” nations and give it to “poor” to prevent swine flu creating anarchy. It won’t end, the lie will just change.

Erik Anderson
September 20, 2009 2:55 pm

World 3: transcontinental flights attempted only by gliders.

Curiousgeorge
September 20, 2009 3:07 pm

So. Sail boats, bigger fish, a couple more trees. Asia figures prominently in the graphic I notice. Hmmm. That seems to be a message.
World 3 looks a lot like prior to 1800. Thanks, but I’ll pass. My direct ancestors sailed over to the New World in the early 1600’s. Don’t think I’d want to repeat that.

Editor
September 20, 2009 3:09 pm

Stephen Skinner (13:49:44) :
Actually, I was NOT aware of that… one learns something new all the time. The image is so ingrained in our language, however, that it conveys a certain truth without necessarily being true. Much as GEICO means no disrespect to Neanderthals (who actually had brains about 10% larger than ours) I meant no offense to lemmings, who are, I’m sure, noble and sensitive creatures.

Mr Lynn
September 20, 2009 3:17 pm

“There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right.”
Is this the end of Science, and the beginning of a new Dark Age?
What a legacy to bequeath to our children!
/Mr Lynn

Paul Vaughan
September 20, 2009 3:22 pm

Jimmy Haigh (14:40:44) “Notice how it’s all ‘climate change’ now and not ‘global warming’.”
Yes …but you left out the dirty word that commands unconditional reverence: ‘Anthropogenic’.
What the myth-spreaders deny: the power of nature.

Jarryd Beck
September 20, 2009 3:29 pm

We got an email about this “Youth Decide” at my uni. The first thing that struck me was that the three options had pictures with them. The lower reduction option has pollution and dead whales, and the higher reduction option has a whole bunch of green stuff around it. I would bet that based on that alone, the vote will be 100% to the highest reduction option.

Michael
September 20, 2009 3:41 pm

This documentary came out 20 years ago and is still accurate, truthful, and proves the conspiracy. Why didn’t the people listen to this back then. Maybe they didn’t see it because NPR refused to show it. I wish I had 600 copies to give to every congressman.
The Greenhouse Conspiracy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5949034802461518010#

Groundhog Day
September 20, 2009 3:58 pm

‘The Age’ in Melbourne and its Sydney stablemate ‘The Sydney Morning Herald’ have been losing money & readership for years. Perhaps the reason is this ‘journalism’ is oh-so-typical; its plain leftwing elitism, anti-capitalistic, mis-anthropic swill. I guess more & more readers are getting indigestion on this diet of garbage and don’t buy or subscribe to the paper(s) or visit their websites. If any ETS scam /scheme is introduced here by our economically illiterate & bankrupt Fed Govt (ie. Australian Labor Party; essentially the same vein as US Democrats) the owners of these papers (Fairfax) will probably close down these vestages of stupidity as their revenues will plummet as the economy will be in freefall.

Al Gore's Holy Hologram
September 20, 2009 4:01 pm

“A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. …he will refuse to believe it…. That’s the tragedy of the situation of demoralization.” – Yuri Bezmenov
Watch Yuri Bezmenov’s lectures on the step by step plan to bring crisis and then communism to the US. This isn’t some conspiracy theorist nut, he was a KGB propaganda agent stationed in India before he defected. It was his job to report on intellectuals and oppress any dissenters.
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/brainwashing/2007/bezmenov.htm
http://www.youtube.com/user/hermitcleric
Join the Tea Parties and take your country back NOW because this lunacy has gone too far.

D. King
September 20, 2009 4:31 pm

There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right.
Wow, they screwed up their own kids and they’re making jokes about it.

Graeme Rodaughan
September 20, 2009 4:55 pm

“There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right.”
REF: (MICHAEL COULTER): http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/hey-kids-it-aint-easy-being-green-20090919-fw1p.html
IMHO: This Hubris originates in the Echo Chamber of Left Thought, and will be a key weakness of the AGW political Movement that will result in the AGW Promoters snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.
This Hubris results from the unwillingness of the Left to actually deal with Facts ahead of Ideology. There is an assumption is that those who dissent are simply fringe idiots, small in numbers and without influence who can be safely ignored – this is a false assumption. However as his Ideology tells him that he is [1] Smart, [2] Right, [3] On the side destined by History to Win. He can’t imagine failure at this stage – which is a classic weakness that has destroyed many in the past.
Pride goeth before a fall.
I wonder if this hubris will survive Copenhagen in December 2009, and the US Elections in 2010?
He goes on to say “And a lot of solutions proposed by climate affirmers are potentially beneficial, regardless of motive. The world is living beyond its means. It would be good to have less muck in the air. Oil won’t last forever, and it would be pleasant to have an alternative sooner rather than later.”
Which is the typical material at the foundation of the modern left. However, if we breakdown his rationale…
[1] “The world is living beyond its means.” Counter: REF1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Lincoln_Simon Counter: REF2: http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/there-is-no-shortage-of-stuff/
[2] “It would be good to have less muck in the air.” NOX, SOX, are already scrubbed from modern western coal plants. Does he have an issue with H2O vapour and CO2 Plant Food?
[3] “Oil won’t last forever.” Coal To Liquid (CTL) anyone, again not a problem as cost-effective, robust solutions are already available and would kick into play as soon as the OIL price stays above a trigger level long enough to prompt investment.
[4] it would be pleasant to have an alternative sooner rather than later.” Provided it’s a cost-effective, robust solution it will be “pleasant” if it’s a replacement with a more expensive, unreliable energy system such as Wind, Solar, etc. it won’t be “pleasant”.

el gordo
September 20, 2009 5:04 pm

The foundations of our democratic way of life is an informed society, not just an opinionated one. Now that the Third Estate has lost all credibility, we are forced to scour the web and read the msm between the lines.
Remember Pravda, under the dictatorship of the proletariat it was pure satire.

Evan Jones
Editor
September 20, 2009 5:06 pm

This worries me. I am looking very hard for a job (any job) and all I see are initiatives that will make it even harder for me to find one.

Bulldust
September 20, 2009 5:10 pm

I, for one, wish to apologise on behalf of all Australian’s (though I probably represent a diminishing few not under the thrall of the Grand Poobah Gore), for our elected Prime Minister. Apparently he is about to launch a campaign of “shock tactics” to teach the world leaders the errors of their CO2-belching economic ways:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/6081443/rudd-plans-shock-tactics-for-un-talks-on-climate/
I hide my head in shame… ironic it is that the one person vocally calling for answers on climate change (i.e. why there has been no noticeable warming in the last decade etc) is a self-professed dyslexic senator (Fielding) from a fringe party.
We live in strange times…

Troppo
September 20, 2009 5:18 pm

Kath @ 13:19:53
Obviously that headline :“Melting Ice Caps Expose Hundreds Of Secret Arctic Lairs” was a misprint…..’lairs’ should be ‘liars’!

Patrick Davis
September 20, 2009 5:34 pm

I notice, recently, on the Sydney Morning Herald website we’re no longer able to “have our say” on articles relating to cliamate change.
Also, the media is now flooded with articles/news items etc on TV, radio and in the papers too.
Unfortunately, most Australians have fallen for the AGW CC BS hook, line and sinker.

Phil's Dad
September 20, 2009 5:35 pm

To Robert E. Phelan (15:09:04) : who said to Stephen Skinner (13:49:44) : on his information that the lemmings did not rush over the cliff edge..
“Actually, I was NOT aware of that… one learns something new all the time. The image is so ingrained in our language, however, that it conveys a certain truth without necessarily being true. Much as GEICO means no disrespect to Neanderthals (who actually had brains about 10% larger than ours) I meant no offense to lemmings, who are, I’m sure, noble and sensitive creatures.”
Was it not King Canute who held back the wave of lemmings?

JamesG
September 20, 2009 5:58 pm

I think you all need to read it again. It’s honest, true and you could add almost any speculative trendy scientific theory in place of climate change there. I can think of a dozen off the top of my head. That’s what happens in science! No the debate isn’t any longer about the science because that will take time to correct because powerful reputations and lots of grant money are at stake. You need to stop the flow of grant money to stop the bad science. Best thing skeptics can now do is try to help steer policy towards an avenue that won’t make things worse. The public help here because not one of them is prepared to pay any carbon taxes. That’s why cap and trade was invented – because politicians know most folk are too dumb to realize it’s just a fancy name for a tax. So insist on a real, transparent tax that the “67% green” public can then reject.
No it’s not about socialism you wingnut ideologues. It’s a mix of cognitive dissonance, madness of crowds, egotistical self-promotion, self-righteous middle-class angst and plain old-fashioned greed. The same combination of human frailties that brought about the Iraq war, the Washington consensus, the propping up of latin dictatorships or a thousand other bad policy decisions. And why not try looking in the mirror before you accuse any left-wingers (as if such a thing even existed in US politics) of not facing facts. You wingnuts have cornered the market on that specialty. If you’d actually even read any left wing press then you’d have been well prepared for the current market depression because they all predicted it. Thanks, they predicted, to the greed, fear, sloth and stupidity of the bonus-laden bankers and traders in this rotten trickle-up system and the Chigago-school economists who promoted the absurd, uber-optimistic belief that markets are self-correcting. Worried about future energy costs? Get real! The real problem is the depression you are in now. A few bright ideas for getting out of this hole would be more pertinent than worrying about falling in the the next one.

gtrip
September 20, 2009 6:54 pm

JamesG (17:58:15) : Ron Paul in 2012 right?

Ack
September 20, 2009 7:11 pm

Someday science/engineering may be able to achieve scenario 3, but right now (and the foreseeable future) the only way to do so is to ruin the economies, and put millions of people out of work in every major industrial nation.

Philip_B
September 20, 2009 7:12 pm

AGW is the revenge of all those kids who were completely baffled by science in high school. Science is now what you believe to be science. No need to make your brain hurt by actually trying to understand.

gtrip
September 20, 2009 7:16 pm

I still want to know…..where are the hurricanes? We were promised hurricanes. I am so totally disappointed.

Zeke the Sneak
September 20, 2009 7:26 pm

“Note they don’t include a mini Ice Age resulting from reduced solar activity”
Aah, delightful quote of the week.
Oh wait. Wishful thinking strikes again!

Bulldust
September 20, 2009 7:30 pm

Have we come full circle to Pagan beliefs now? We had better all start praying to the Earth Mother Gaia or the forces of Chaos shall overwhelm us.
Actually this may not be a bad thing… wasn’t there stuff about prancing around nekkid at the Henge and celebrating fertility at the solstice?
I, for one, welcome our new (or is that old) Pagan overlords.
Hmmm if only that other mob hadn’t made white gowns so unfashionable…

Geoff Sherington
September 20, 2009 7:37 pm

I, too, apologise for what my country Australia has said and is doing. This country, with a population then of under 10 million, produced some outstanding science and scientific leadership when I was a youngster starting out.
Now, in my later years, I cannot even comprehend of a person so stupid as to write “There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right”.
Please accept our shame.

Philip_B
September 20, 2009 7:38 pm

because politicians know most folk are too dumb to realize it’s (Cap and Trade) just a fancy name for a tax.
Cap and Trade isn’t a tax. It’s a form of rationing.
The purpose of Cap and Trade and the reason it is mandated by the UN as the solution to AGW, is to funnel large amounts of money out of developed countries. Carbon taxes would in contrast retain the revenues at the national level.
I’ll note that France famous for thumbing its nose at the international consensus and doing what is best for the French has just announced a carbon tax.
And if you are looking for someone to blame for the USA’s current economic state then blame Japanese and then Chinese savers who resolutely refused to spend their money. This money then flowed in particular to the USA where it funded excess consumption. They are now taking their money back.
Socialism is just a shorthand for the One World government through the United Nations crowd generally indistinquishable from the moderate to far left.

Ron de Haan
September 20, 2009 7:48 pm
colinjely
September 20, 2009 8:05 pm

Is it Faifax which is owned by the Murdoch’s? What else could you expect from a Scientologist? Maybe he should get a grip of his ‘Coke’ cans a bit harder!

Bulldust
September 20, 2009 8:10 pm

LOL I just looked at the list of supporters for the Yoof Decides thing:
http://youthdecide.com.au/About-Us/Partners—supporters.aspx
As if we needed another reason to hate the Collingwood Football Club LOL
Let’s hope their form last Saturday is indicative of what to expect in Copenhagen.

Patrick Davis
September 20, 2009 8:13 pm

Carbon emissions down; So do we need an agreement at Copenhagen?
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/carbon-emissions-fall-with-global-downturn-report-20090921-fxqf.html
From the Article;
“The December meeting in Copenhagen, under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, aims to set down action for tackling heat-trapping carbon emissions beyond 2012, when the current provisions of the Kyoto Protocol run out.”
Many Australians will be shaking with fear when they read “heat-trapping carbon emissions…”
It’s a shame termites emit more GHG (Methane) than all other living creatures put together on this planet.

Patrick Davis
September 20, 2009 8:17 pm

“Philip_B (19:38:28) :
Cap and Trade isn’t a tax. It’s a form of rationing.”
Rationing, in the form of more expensive stuff, food, power, fuel etc made expensive by higher…..taxes, levies, carbon offsets whatever word/words you want to use, it’s still a tax.

Patrick Davis
September 20, 2009 8:26 pm

A bit OT, but inline with media hype in Australia;
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/volcanic-eruption-in-australia-3000-years-overdue-20090921-fx4f.html
Basically an “…ologist” has stated that some naturally ocurring event seems a bit “overdue”!!! Of course “geo-hazards” are real and unpredictible.

LB
September 20, 2009 8:28 pm

The Age used to be decent. It started declining, so I stopped reading everything but the Epicure section. Then that went pear shaped too. As an side, The Age also runs a hardcore republican agenda, while still selling their newspape under their most recognisable symbol, the Royal Coat of Arms. Yep, thats integrity right there.

Bulldust
September 20, 2009 8:28 pm

It’s an indirect tax in the sense that governments can intervene in the market place directly in one of two ways: set regulations in regard to quantity or price. It really is a question of potato… potatoe…
By not setting a price on carbon, but rather a quantity to be regulated, and then letting the “free” markets determine price, the governments of the world wash their hands somewhat of being viewed as increasing the cost of all things.
At the end of the day, we realise that the ultimate effect on the households is the same… we pay more for stuff. Where this income is redistributed to is the only question (after all we have “moved on” from the questions of climate science, no?)

Patrick Davis
September 20, 2009 8:47 pm

OT, but important IMO. This is the other side of the coin when stuff get’s more expensive;
http://www.smh.com.au/business/financial-stress-for-families-on-the-rise-20090920-fwtp.html
We haven’t even started to pay for the migration to a less carbon based economy and rationing yet.

David Segesta
September 20, 2009 8:56 pm

“I think now it will take years of brutally cold winters and complete and total refutation of climate modeling and AGW before the average person would accept that the science was never settled.”
Be careful what you wish for.

rbateman
September 20, 2009 9:16 pm

The money goes overseas, never to return.
This is no simple tax. It’s finito for US economy.
It will turn a deep recession into a Grand Depression.
Only, this is not 1933, and we are energy and import dependent.

Cassandra King
September 20, 2009 9:19 pm

The indoctrination of children is an old and effective trick, get into the schools and you have a captive audience, they soak up what adults tell them like a sponge, they are easy prey for the propagandists.
Its cynical and its dishonest but the whole MMCC/AGW/AAM charade is dishonest on a molecular level, the UK prime minister now relies on photoshoots with children, he is so unpopular and hated even that only children can be trusted not give him a jolly hard time, His audience gets younger by the week.
The mind of a child is what carries the hope and dreams of a civilisation foward, it is also the Achiles heel of any democracy, the enemies of democracy know only too well the essential part children can play in the theft of that democracy.

Bill Marsh
September 20, 2009 9:42 pm

OT: Anyone know what’s up with the NASA SOHO site? It’s been unreachable for the last three days.

September 20, 2009 10:27 pm

Phil’s Dad (17:35:03) : “… Was it not King Canute who held back the wave of lemmings?”
Please, Dad, do not help to promote this error. King Canute was a wise and humble king who was wholly aware of the frailty of man. He took his pleace on the beach to show his foolish people that he could NOT hold back the tide. See:

Legend states that Viking King, Canute the Great, once sat on the medieval seashores of England, resplendently robed atop his thrown and commanded the rising tide to “go back.” As the waves lapped around his ankles, Canute, a wise king and astute politician, used the exercise to illustrate that though the deeds of kings may seem great to the minds of men, they were nothing in the face of God’s power.
In modern parlance, Canute knew when to quit.

J.Hansford
September 20, 2009 10:34 pm

From the AGE…… “[As you are reading, the young are voting. They are telling us whether they want to live in a world where the Great Barrier Reef is dead, half of all animal species face extinction and two billion people don’t have enough to drink. Frankly, it would be surprising if they did want this kind of world….. It’s a fair point, but again: is anyone actually in favour of not saving the world?…]”
This whole article assumes that the World needs saving….
It forces young people to choose between different flavours of the same catastrophism…. Classic Socialist politics.
The Socialist elite, the Vanguard of higher thought, know better than everyone else, what everyone else needs…. Yeah right!

el gordo
September 20, 2009 11:13 pm

Sad but true, Mr Hansford. The voice of reason will not return until there is a nasty change in the weather.

anna v
September 20, 2009 11:18 pm

Robert E. Phelan (15:09:04) :
Stephen Skinner (13:49:44) :
Actually, I was NOT aware of that… one learns something new all the time. The image is so ingrained in our language, however, that it conveys a certain truth without necessarily being true. Much as GEICO means no disrespect to Neanderthals (who actually had brains about 10% larger than ours) I meant no offense to lemmings, who are, I’m sure, noble and sensitive creatures.

As are sheep:
In Istanbul, Turkey nearly 1,500 sheep jumped over a cliff, 450 died, the rest survived because they landed on the dead.
First one sheep jumped to its death. Then stunned Turkish shepherds, who had left the herd to graze while they had breakfast, watched as nearly 1,500 others followed, each leaping off the same cliff, Turkish media reported Friday.
In the end, 450 dead animals lay on top of one another in a billowy white pile, the Aksam newspaper said. Those who jumped later were saved as the pile got higher, cushioning the fall, the daily newspaper Aksam reported.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200507/09/eng20050709_195169.html
The reason I searched the net for “sheep” and “cliff” is that I know that sheep display herd behavior: If a herd passes an obstacle, the head sheep jumps it, the next follows, etc. Remove slyly the obstacle, the herd keeps jumping where the others jumped.
Probably the lemming story started by one herd going over the cliff, maybe because the head lemming was stung by a wasp or snake, as could be the excuse for the sheep jump, imo. The rest follow the leader because for grazing animals of small mobility being in a large group gives larger survival probability, the predators eating the slow ones at the outside.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread152690/pg1

Johnny Honda
September 20, 2009 11:30 pm

“Even if it’s wrong”
You can hear this very very strange comment very often in the Internet, when people are confronted with sceptic views. Mostly the phrase is like this:
“Even if it’s wrong, we have to save oil”
“Even if it’s wrong, we have to protect the environment”
etc.
etc.
Total crazy

Patrick Davis
September 21, 2009 12:12 am

OT, but I am keen to keep watch of this court case;
http://www.theage.com.au/national/accused-arsonist-granted-bail-20090921-fy5z.html
Not sure if we’ll hear much about it on the news here in New South Wales however.

Mark Fawcett
September 21, 2009 12:17 am

Marian (14:03:44) :
“12 year olds (brainwashed at school by endless showings of An Inconvenient Truth in science class, rather than in politics class). But it also includes an almost unbelievable”
What’s really disgusting about this BS. There’s cases where children come home from school after their brainwash session scared. Thinking they’re going to all drown because the icecaps are melting.

The only way Al Gore is going to see a substantial sea-level rise is if he goes swimming.
Sorry, completely ad-hom but I couldn’t resist; am slapping own wrist as I type (not easy).
Cheers
Mark.

September 21, 2009 12:42 am

>>>Joseph Goebbels would be proud.
Wasn’t it Goebbels who said, “if you say something often enough, people will believe it”?
.

September 21, 2009 1:03 am

>>>Hmmm if only that other mob hadn’t made
>>>white gowns so unfashionable…
Ahh, you should live in a non-PC country like Spain, rather than conformist USA. White gowns and pointy hats are de rigueur here:
http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blogs/intelligenttravel/2994745839_c78e280121-thumb-500×292.jpg
.

September 21, 2009 1:15 am

Wade (14:53:19) : “People will more readily believe the big lie than the little lie.” Hitler and the AGW movement have one thing in common: they know (knew) how to manipulate people.
What a way to start Monday morning!
OK, I’m going to channel my horror, reroute it positively into my upcoming talk.

Philip_B
September 21, 2009 1:20 am

The main difference between a tax and rationing is that governments get to determine who gets how much of an allocation under the overall ration. Assuming all allocations are not auctioned.
Thus rationing is an instrument for increasing government control of the economy.
Crucially, with Cap and Trade the United Nations alone has the right to manufacture new ration allocations on an international basis (known as carbon offsets).
Thus Cap and Trade is an instrument for increasing UN control of the world economy.
Rationing may or may not increase prices. Depending on the degree to which the item being rationed can be substituted.
If nuclear power stations (or other alternative source of energy) were being built at a rate equivalent to the rate the carbon ration was being reduced then there would be minimal overall effect on prices.
whatever word/words you want to use, it’s still a tax
Unlike you, I’ll refrain from calling people who can’t understand the difference between rationing and a tax ‘dumb’.

September 21, 2009 1:20 am

>>>The mind of a child is what carries the hope and
>>>dreams of a civilisation foward, it is also the Achiles
>>>heel of any democracy,
Absolutely.
Children educated in 1930s USSR became young communists.
Children educated in 1930s Germany became Hitler youth.
…and almost without exception.
Children are what you make them, pure and simple, but in the West the Left have taken over all our education and media, so are we surprised that we are losing the culture and science ‘war’?
Even parents are powerless nowadays, as the children tell the teachers, the teachers tell social services, who then call the police and you get a knock at your door. “Ello, ello, ello, I hear you don’t believe in ………” (add whichever Liberal belief system you care).
Think I am kidding? I’m afraid not. We had a couple arrested last week for debating the merits of Islam in their home!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214666/Christian-hotel-owners-hauled-court-defending-beliefs-discussion-Muslim-guest.html
I can hear the defence case now. “But you were told by the government and BBC that Islam is a Religion of Peace – and you did not believe them? M’lud, I call for the maximin punishment of 25 years”.
.

Alan the Brit
September 21, 2009 1:38 am

joe (13:18:47) :
In europe on cnn and bbc the programming is 100% climate change all the time.
Almost every news story has a climate change angle, yesterday the two stories I saw repeated several times were the german freighters that took the northeast passage and bangladesh is flooding due to rising sea levels.
If I didn’t have the interwebs as a source of information I’d be digging a shelter for the coming climate apocalypse.
I think now it will take years of brutally cold winters and complete and total refutation of climate modeling and AGW before the average person would accept that the science was never settled.
Don’t be too sure that the majority believe this BS! Many do that is true to say. However, many also feel frustrated, & a little despondant as they cannot see any way of challenging the mythology with any degree of success, (Main stream parties of all colours are committed greenies) because the BBC, & the rest of the squalid media hacks are either on board from the beginning, eg Richard Black/Roger Harrabin et al, or gave up any idea of being independent journalists long ago because it was easier to swallow the press releases from the Spin Doctors rather than carry out a little research themselves, they never ask embarrassing questions any more. Having said this, it doesn’t matter how many swallow the bitter pill of environmentalism, the people have short memories as politicans of all hues can atest, & it won’t take many years of cold bitter winters to convince them that all is not quite as it seems. It would probably be only two or three with sky-rocketing fuel prices to boot.
OT, but loosely connected, former President Jimmy Carter should know better & he should be ashamed of himself, I for one never thought he would stoop so low by using that old chestnut! Was it not the Republican party who sought the Presidential candidacy of one Colin Powell? (Moderator please snip if you feel this remark will cause problems, though it was not meant to & I have no desire to do so, but rather to illustrate the desparation within the Democrat/Green camp to raise taxes & force through a Bill that they have dreamt of for 40 years.)

John Silver
September 21, 2009 1:45 am

Geoff Sherington (19:37:10) :
“I, too, apologise for what my country Australia has said and is doing. This country, with a population then of under 10 million, produced some outstanding science and scientific leadership when I was a youngster starting out.
Now, in my later years, I cannot even comprehend of a person so stupid as to write “There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right”.
Please accept our shame.”
Here is a hint:
http://www.fenton.com.au/

Ian
September 21, 2009 2:09 am

Roger Carr
How absolutely refreshing to see the real story of King Canute written. I am so tired of reading quotes that imply Canute was a braggart and an arrogant loser when the opposite is the case. He was a humble man showing his dopey followers that he couldn’t oppose the forces of nature. If only Al Gore and the considerable number of climate scientists who espouse anthropogenic CO2 as the major/only factor in global warming, would take a leaf from Canute’s book!

Pierre Gosselin
September 21, 2009 2:14 am

If there are any readers here who understand German, than this video is a must watch:
http://www3.ndr.de/media/gluehbirne114.html
It tells the sad story of “energy saving lights”, their energy-intensive and dangerous recycling and their general inefficiency. It’s a real scandal.
I’d really hate to see them used in undeveloped countries. These green groups are not interested in the environment.

Patrick Davis
September 21, 2009 2:32 am

“J.Hansford (22:34:31) :
This whole article assumes that the World needs saving….
It forces young people to choose between different flavours of the same catastrophism…. Classic Socialist politics.”
One thing I have noticed when I discuss AGW CC and CO2 with younger people is that they don’t equate the use of iPods, social network systems like Facebook, Twitter etc, cellphone networks, pro-AGW sites like youthdecide.com.au and a shedload more sites than that, all the servers and all the telecoms equipment required for them to be accessed from home, home networks and computers consume power in their use, consumed power in their manufacturing, in their installation, their support which releases CO2. They just don’t seem to “put it all together”.

Donald in Australia
September 21, 2009 2:37 am

There is nothing surprising about this piece of knavery coming from the Age, aka the “Pravda of the Yarra” (Yarra being the river through Melbourne).
The Age made its collectivist mind up about ‘global warming’ long ago. It runs a left-of-centre views on most issues, and currently is in a less than grand financial state, something it shares with its stable partner in Sydney. Echoes of the NYT and WaPo. After a while, folk become tired of filtered news and biased commentary posing as reportage.
At least a bailout is out of the question, I hope..

September 21, 2009 2:56 am

Is anyone else having trouble getting the sunspot images in the RH column the last few days? For me the server is timing out.

Roger Knights
September 21, 2009 3:39 am

Roger Carr: Read what Phil’s Dad wrote and you’ll see that he was being facetious.

DennisA
September 21, 2009 3:42 am

Mike Jonas: your letter was published but they will not do their own rebuttal of the original

Patrick Davis
September 21, 2009 4:33 am

“Philip_B (01:20:25) :
Rationing may or may not increase prices. Depending on the degree to which the item being rationed can be substituted.”
Clearly you’ve never been subject to “rationing”, or not being able to afford stuff, like food and have to resort to….errm….crime, because someone else “controls the market”. And you seem to advocate the “black market” too?
“If nuclear power stations (or other alternative source of energy) were being built at a rate equivalent to the rate the carbon ration was being reduced then there would be minimal overall effect on prices.”
Funny.
“Unlike you, I’ll refrain from calling people who can’t understand the difference between rationing and a tax ‘dumb’.”
I understand the difference between those who have, those who have not, tax (In any form), control of the “market” and Govn’t.

Newspeaker
September 21, 2009 4:37 am

Ready for a “global eco-cultural revolution”?
See, before the cult revolution really got going in China, they had to indoctrinate the children first – after that they were ready to even kill their own parents for “what they had done” or for “what they were thinking”…
Now, this leads me to Anna Louise Strong – a relative of Maurice Strong – who was a close friend of Mao. She died in 1970 and is buried just a few graves away from Mao.
I believe Maurice Strong’s goals are not that much different from his cousin’s goals – that’s what I believe she was to him – or Mao’s, for that matter;
“Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsiblity to bring that about?”
– Maurice Strong, founder of the UN Environment Programme

Barry Foster
September 21, 2009 4:43 am

We’re getting reports here in England (on the BBC news) that the level of global CO2 has fallen – they say due to the worldwide recession. Anyone heard any news on this? Cannot find it on the BBC’s web site.

Patrick Davis
September 21, 2009 4:52 am

“Barry Foster (04:43:17) :
We’re getting reports here in England (on the BBC news) that the level of global CO2 has fallen – they say due to the worldwide recession. Anyone heard any news on this? Cannot find it on the BBC’s web site.”
Here, but no data, or what the downward difference is, as always.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/carbon-emissions-fall-with-global-downturn-report-20090921-fxqf.html
Warming is AGW. Cooling is just weather, that old chestnut.

Richard111
September 21, 2009 4:57 am

Barry Foster (04:43:17)
Barry, I caught it on the sub screen ticker tape this morning.
You were not dreaming it.

Bruce Cobb
September 21, 2009 5:03 am

ralph (00:42:12) :
>>>Joseph Goebbels would be proud.
Wasn’t it Goebbels who said, “if you say something often enough, people will believe it”?
I don’t know if he said that, but he did perfect the propaganda technique of “the Big Lie”, or “a lie so “colossal” that no one would believe that someone “could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.” Hitler originally coined the phrase “Big Lie”, accusing the Jews of using it, in his “Mein Kampf.

Jack Simmons
September 21, 2009 5:18 am

Graeme Rodaughan (16:55:54) :

“There is not, now, much value in arguing about the science of climate change. Even if it’s wrong, enough people now believe it that it may as well be right.”
REF: (MICHAEL COULTER): http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/hey-kids-it-aint-easy-being-green-20090919-fw1p.html
IMHO: This Hubris originates in the Echo Chamber of Left Thought, and will be a key weakness of the AGW political Movement that will result in the AGW Promoters snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.
This Hubris results from the unwillingness of the Left to actually deal with Facts ahead of Ideology. There is an assumption is that those who dissent are simply fringe idiots, small in numbers and without influence who can be safely ignored – this is a false assumption. However as his Ideology tells him that he is [1] Smart, [2] Right, [3] On the side destined by History to Win. He can’t imagine failure at this stage – which is a classic weakness that has destroyed many in the past.

A few decades ago, the power brokers, media, local boosters, etc. felt very confident about bringing the Olympics to Denver. This in spite of the facts. Denver did not have the facilities, what was available was spread out too far, owners of properties required for such things as bob sled runs didn’t want them, not enough snow in the mountains at the proposed site, etc.
However, when push came to shove, people here just refused to foot the bill. It came as a real shock to the powers that be to find they did not really control matters. It was the loss of a real money making opportunity for the business interests backing the Olympics. It was not a loss for those of us stuck with the bills.
Good thing the Winter Olympics were not in Denver in 1976. It was one of our periodic dry spells up in the mountains for those few years. Instead of breathtaking views of mountains filled with pristine snow, the world would have seen brown weeds on dry hill sides. A real disaster for the public relations of a still small skiing industry.
My wife worked at a small ski shop in the early 70s. It went broke a few years later. Why? Drought and the drop off in skiing. An international audience at the time would have put a stake through the heart of the ski industry.
Advocates for these draconian changes in our economy should have kept their mouths shut as the pulled the levers behind the curtains. Now more people are taking a little time to closely examine the facts behind the climate change crisis.
And there is the matter of the current cooling. All eyes are on the weather. It is not cooperating with AGW enthusiasts. But unlike the very fortunate ski industry of Colorado in the 70s, the world is now watching.

Anne
September 21, 2009 5:19 am

“Bill Marsh (21:42:35) :
OT: Anyone know what’s up with the NASA SOHO site? It’s been unreachable for the last three days.”
From
http://www.solarcycle24.com/
Please note that many solar images have been unavailable through the weekend due to scheduled work on the SOHO website.
The new Cycle 24 region we have been watching for a week now is finally starting to rotate into view. There is a sunspot visible in the latest images. You can see a new picture below.
B-Class flare activity may be possible from the new region, however the X-Ray flux has been fairly quiet. I hope this changes.
New Sunspot (Monday at 11:15 utc)

September 21, 2009 5:30 am

Roger Knights (03:39:09) : “Roger Carr: Read what Phil’s Dad wrote and you’ll see that he was being facetious.”
Happy to accept that, Roger, but the real story still needs spreading and I am prepared to look foolish if that is required to hammer it home.

Vincent
September 21, 2009 5:42 am

JamesG:
“If you’d actually even read any left wing press then you’d have been well prepared for the current market depression because they all predicted it.”
I don’t know what left wing press you’re referring to. However, I can name somebody that did predict the current meltdown: Peter Schiff. And he’s hardly a left winger – a member of the Austrian school of economics, a follower of great economists like Von Mises and Schumpeter.
So, all I’m saying is that your “left wing” aren’t the only ones to have a monopoly on truth. It just takes a clear head and the ability to think outside the box.

paulo arruda
September 21, 2009 5:46 am

In Brazil, we have the term factóide to describe things published in the press to keep politicians in evidences. AGW lives today only of factóides.
In portugês: One factóide is a fact divulged with sensationalism for the press, this can be true or not. Badly intentioned politics is also about propaganda. …

September 21, 2009 5:47 am

Thanks for that closing tag, Mod.
[Reply: de nada, sometimes it’s a WordPress glitch. ~dbs, mod.]

Vincent
September 21, 2009 5:48 am

Cassandra King:
“The indoctrination of children is an old and effective trick, get into the schools and you have a captive audience, they soak up what adults tell them like a sponge, they are easy prey for the propagandists.”
No, they aren’t (easy prey), because it always backfires. When can you get kids to follow an adults point of view? Kids always rebel. If you berate them day after the day to lead “green” lives they will do the exact opposite.
I went to a Church school when I was growing up, and morning worship and monthly church services was de riguer, with punishments for non participation. But, I don’t know a single kid who become a minister because of it.
Nope, these propagandists are making the same mistake each generation makes. We should be laughing at them.

September 21, 2009 6:05 am

>>>We’re getting reports here in England (on the BBC news)
>>>that the level of global CO2 has fallen – they say due to
>>>the worldwide recession. Anyone heard any news on this
They are just covering themselves, in case we get a hard winter.
.

Britannic no-see-um
September 21, 2009 6:16 am

Chillingly, this quote of the week encapsulates the entire strategic goal of this grotesquely ambitious and thoroughly machiavellian political michief. First, from a short list of suitably inclined government funded research institutions enrol a cabal of scientists carefully selected for their polarity on AGW, allow them to draw group think strength from each other and work up a scientific prosecution case against CO2. Devote political wordsmiths to promote this cause and unleash a long term and intensifying comprehensive propaganda campaign on the gullible public, while suppressing dissent with the aid of mainstream media connections. Sit back and wait to see if your bait catches its prey, then once netted and caged, do with them as is your pleasure.

September 21, 2009 6:16 am

>>>No, kids aren’t (easy prey), because it always backfires.
>>>When can you get kids to follow an adults point of view?
>>>Kids always rebel.
Not so. When totally immersed in propaganda, the propaganda always wins. As I said before:
Children educated in 1930s USSR became young communists.
Children educated in 1930s Germany became Hitler youth.
… almost without exception.
Rebellion only happens when there is an alternative outlet/truth that the children can latch on to, instead of the controlling propaganda. Without WUWT and other such websites, the next generation would all be sunk without trace.
.

PrimaryCareDoc
September 21, 2009 6:29 am

Not all Pagans buy into AGW hype. The Earth is a remarkably robust system interacting with the Sun. I think it can survive a great many things humans throw at it, including a little rise in CO2 concentation.
Seriously, folks, AGW looks like an angst-driven mess created by folks with too much time on their hands spent feeling guilty for being well-off without having earned it. Or maybe they worship the nobility of poverty?
I do feel, however, that petroleum IS going to get more expensive, and that we need to start 1) building fission reactors and 2) figuring out how to make fusion work commercially. That way we will have the kind of energy supply that will allow us raise the poor nations to the level of standard of living that those of us in wealthy nations enjoy, while preserving land that would be covered with solar panels or wind turbines if we listen to the Greenies. That will allow us to conserve petroleum for uses like transportation where it is indispensible.
And we do need to think about “conserving the planet’s resources”. Arable land needs to be conserved, so we can feed the world with an adequate diet, rather than some of us having adequate or excessive food & others starving. Plant species that may have uses we don’t even know about yet need to be conserved because once they’re gone, they’re gone.
But this agenda, which is coming from a Pagan “earth worshiper” is far from toeing the AGW line.
Thoughts

Mark Fawcett
September 21, 2009 6:31 am

Barry Foster (04:43:17) :
We’re getting reports here in England (on the BBC news) that the level of global CO2 has fallen – they say due to the worldwide recession. Anyone heard any news on this? Cannot find it on the BBC’s web site.

Nice, now when global temps start to fall even more they can point to this and say “see, CO2 went down so the temperature fell”…
Cheers
Mark

Taphonomic
September 21, 2009 6:54 am

It should always be kept in mind that 50% of all people have IQs of less than 100.

TJA
September 21, 2009 7:04 am

I don’t know if it is in Alinsky’s book, but one thing I have noticed a lot from the Left is that they say something is true that they hope to make true. Kind of like dressing for the job you want, not the job you have.

Retired Engineer
September 21, 2009 7:38 am

About 150 years ago, a fellow named Karl wrote that to control a country you need only control the press and the schools. Not that the AGW crowd follow all his ideas, they do employ his methods.
As for the folks in Oz: no need to apologize. You don’t have a corner on the stupidity market. I suspect us ugly Yanks can outdo you any day.
We are watching a train wreck in slow motion. From inside the train. The people making the most noise about it aren’t trying to stop the train, they want it to go faster. Add a terrorist attack or two, and it will surpass anything Cecil B Demille ever imagined.

jcl
September 21, 2009 7:54 am

Hey, did we just cross 2005 on the Arctic ice extent graph?

September 21, 2009 7:58 am

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry!

CPT. Charles
September 21, 2009 8:00 am

And the ‘adults’ are next:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/20/united-nations-summit-climate-change
Get ready for ‘turbo’ mode.
“Pared-down summit will force heads of rich states to listen to those of third world in hope of kickstarting radical action”
‘Pared-down’. Hmmmmm. I guess all the ‘Fence sitters’ got dis-invited.
I already know what happened to all the skeptics.

Kum Dollison
September 21, 2009 8:04 am

Nah, Mark. CO2 levels at Mauna Loa are up 0.36 ppm Month on Month, and 1.76 ppm, Year on Year.
ftp://ftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccg/co2/trends/co2_mm_mlo.txt

Ron de Haan
September 21, 2009 8:06 am

UN plans ‘shock therapy’ for world leaders on environment…from Drudge Report:
Shock therapy based on spin and lies that is.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/20/united-nations-summit-climate-change

BernardP
September 21, 2009 8:16 am

95 % emission reduction by 2050? Piece of cake!

Nogw
September 21, 2009 8:25 am
Alan the Brit
September 21, 2009 8:29 am

Bruce Cobb (05:03:59) :
ralph (00:42:12) :
>>>Joseph Goebbels would be proud.
“”Wasn’t it Goebbels who said, “if you say something often enough, people will believe it”?
I don’t know if he said that, but he did perfect the propaganda technique of “the Big Lie”, or “a lie so “colossal” that no one would believe that someone “could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.” Hitler originally coined the phrase “Big Lie”, accusing the Jews of using it, in his “Mein Kampf.””
It was our old friend Lenin who said about telling a lie often enough it becomes truth. But definitely our charming, intelligent, witty, caring, concerned, considerate, thoughtful, (& quite mad), friend Herr Hitler who said the big lie thing. (I understand those were some of the adjectives actually attributed to him by many who met him during the pre-war charm offensive – rather a contradcition in terms I think!).
Vincent (05:48:13) :
I can see it in the playground in 10 years time:-
The scene, back og the bike sheds where they are not overlooked………..
First boy, “I stole a packet of cigarettes from my Dad’s draw, & I am going to smoke them!”
Second boy, sneeringly, “That’s nothing, I stole a half-bottle of scotch from my uncles drinks cabinet, & I am going to drink it!”
Third boy, gleefully outshining the others, “That’s nothing, I stole a packet of weed from my big sisters bedroom, & I am going to smoke that”!
Fourth boy, cool & calculatingly rebellious, “That’s nothing, you’re all lame brain scaredy cats. I’ve got some lumps of coal in my pocket, & I am going to set light to them, now that’s real scary stuff!!!!!”.
The first three in unison, “You can’t do that, all that will happen to us if we got caught would be automatic expulsion, but you’d get extra after-school environmental lessons 5 days a week for what you’re about to do, that’s crazy!!!!!!”

PrimaryCareDoc
September 21, 2009 8:38 am

Ron de Haan
Sure we can decrease emissions 95% — we can starve or kill 95% of the world’s population!
NOT ACCEPTABLE.
But I think that’s what a large # of the AGW-ers want…

TerryBixler
September 21, 2009 9:00 am

Nogw
Someone needs to ask these Copenhagen politicos where is the science of AGW. Why have not the temperatures zoomed as the models predicted. The engineering required to keep our standard of living afloat with an increasing population is significant. The engineering to keep our standard of living afloat with rules based on bad science is impossible. Very easy to make grand pronouncements based on how important they are and how important it is to save mankind from the evil CO2 while gaining power to regulate the masses. These new cardinals are taking control.
As a minor aside what is wrong with warmer temperatures we may want them in the near future.

CodeTech
September 21, 2009 9:33 am

I’ve seen proof of unrelenting propaganda, and it’s not all aimed at children. This may sound off topic, but it’s not: we’re discussing propaganda.
How many of you reading this believe all war is bad? How many know better, but still are very uneasy in the very thought of you or your country participating in a war, even a brief military liberation of an extremely oppressed country… say, Iraq?
How many times have we heard that Iraq and Afghanistan are pointless, incorrect meddling in local affairs… how often are we told some ridiculously fantastic number of poor innocent civilians, especially children, “murdered” by allied forces?
Just recently I read an article in the local paper explaining that WW2 was already over when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were hit, in fact, Nagasaki was the center of anti-war sentiment in Japan and might have somehow stopped the war anyway! Although the writer was attempting to demonstrate allied propaganda, he instead demonstrated anti-war propaganda.
I was born in 1963. From the very moment of my first awareness I was the target of anti-war idealistic propaganda because of Vietnam. I, too, believed that war was horrible, evil, and to be avoided at all costs. Now that I am an adult, I understand that as the naive ignorance it is. It is insane to avoid war at all costs. It is self-destructive. It is cultural suicide. By that standard, we should all have welcomed the Nazi overlords, who would have taken over from our communist rulers anyway.
Civilized countries do not start wars. They do, however, respond to aggressive opponents with the threat of war, and FOLLOW THROUGH if required. Lately, our civilization has been lax on following through, allowing things to get so bad that a massive blow-out has been the inevitable result.
Anyway, the quote of the week is a masterful display of absolute ignorance. As most of us here know, science has little to do with “belief”, the two are almost opposites. I mean, no matter how much I believed as a child, sprinkling some fairy dust on someone does not give them the power to fly.

Thomas J. Arnold.
September 21, 2009 9:43 am

It is most frustrating, however until the ‘curve ball’ can be batted out of the field we are facing an on-rushing surge. We argue till we’re blue in the face but we cannot say with total alacrity, unequivocally and backed up with empirical scientific evidence, that the basic premise, IE Anthropogenic produced CO2 causes uncontrolled warming – what alarmists BELIEVE (and what I believe is specious) is (completely) wrong. Therefore, the ante must be raised, but by pure science. Nature not Anthropogenic hot air,
‘L’Homme fait ce qu’il peut, et Dieu, ce qu’il veut.’
-Man does what he can, but God what he will.
There are many people who feel that we are not responsible for warming the planet, but the people who ‘count’ do.
It is the case of the Emperor’s clothes all over again, where is the child to see the obvious? There will be no children to speak the truth – all will have had their opinions ‘formed’ for them.
This is not about science any longer but about power and vested interest. If the alarmists where to lose the argument, the whole ‘alarmist industry’ is gone over night. Hence ‘climate change’, ‘green technology’, saving the planet has taken a new form and an ‘ethical’ dimension( the ethics of force feeding children quasi science and the irony, is lost on these people).
If one looks at my country Britain, there are now so many jobs and jobsworths even government departments wholly devoted to the environment and ‘climate change’, its all money, kudos and political power.
The Met office and Climate Research Unit, are all totally on-message, but if evidence came to light, that CO2 is no longer the bug-bear, what then? (would they tell? Mr. Steve McIntyre has all sorts of problems gaining correct information). The university of East Anglia always had a reputation for marxist and left leaning tendencies, how apt then, that the CRU is based there, their reputation for humanities not science was perfect, most red-brick universities have far superior pure science faculties but then again it is not about ‘pure science’.
The Uk is no longer fighting a major world war but battling the forces of ‘malign mankind’ in the form of ‘climate change’ and how us mere mortals got it wrong again. Ergo, we must be helped to save ourselves and by extension Government knows best.
So now the pragmatists, industrialists, naysayers, real scientists and the most ordinary folk – anybody who does not tow the line are ‘infidels’ ( AGW -it became a religion).
And there’s not a thing we can do about it?!?! (or so ‘they’ think!).
You couldn’t make it up! – oh! -they just did! What we need but don’t really want is a severe, prolonged winter (as Joe mentioned above).
We are being suckered.

Kum Dollison
September 21, 2009 9:44 am

You can see on this chart that the only significant hiccup on CO2’s relentless rise came during the 2008 La Nina.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

the bear
September 21, 2009 10:02 am

world 3 and 1 are the same. Only thing missing is the economic redistribution that’s not illustrated by non-treaty nations.

Curiousgeorge
September 21, 2009 10:35 am

A simple question: What are the legal, political, economic, social or other remedies that are available to the skeptic community to counter the alarmist push? Marches, blogs, and general complaining are obviously not sufficient. Opposing scientific opinions have not prevailed. And so on.
Has anyone filed a class action claiming damages as a result of alarmist actions? Have there been any significant political or economic consequences visited on the alarmist community? What is being DONE that has some practical effect? Or is everyone simply wringing their hands and hoping reason prevails?

Indiana Bones
September 21, 2009 1:24 pm

Roger Carr (22:27:55) :
Phil’s Dad (17:35:03) : “… Was it not King Canute who held back the wave of lemmings?”

Please, Dad, do not help to promote this error. King Canute was a wise and humble king who was wholly aware of the frailty of man. He took his pleace Canute, a wise king and astute politician, used the exercise to illustrate that though the deeds of kings may seem great to the minds of men, they were nothing in the face of God’s power.
And to prove that rising tides result from natural variation and the effects of gravity – not man’s interventions.

Nogw
September 21, 2009 1:40 pm

Curiousgeorge (10:35:59) :
What are the legal, political, economic, social or other remedies that are available to the skeptic community to counter the alarmist push?
Just Landscheidt’s Minimum and its graceful consequences…

Z
September 21, 2009 2:28 pm

Barry Foster (04:43:17) :
We’re getting reports here in England (on the BBC news) that the level of global CO2 has fallen – they say due to the worldwide recession. Anyone heard any news on this? Cannot find it on the BBC’s web site.
——
I thought CO2 had a dwell time of a zillion years in the atmosphere. How could it drop so soon?

Curiousgeorge
September 21, 2009 3:00 pm

@ Nogw (13:40:15) :
Curiousgeorge (10:35:59) :
What are the legal, political, economic, social or other remedies that are available to the skeptic community to counter the alarmist push?
Just Landscheidt’s Minimum and its graceful consequences… ”
So we just sit back and let the universe fix it? Sorry, but I doubt that carries much weight with the big money guys and politicos pushing the agw agenda.

Editor
September 21, 2009 3:16 pm

Kum Dollison (09:44:56) : “You can see on this chart that the only significant hiccup on CO2’s relentless rise came during the 2008 La Nina.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/
If you want proof that temperature affects CO2 then here is a graph of the 12-mth change in CO2 (Mauna Loa) vs temperature (Hadcrut3). [Not my original idea to do this – Fred Lansner’s]
http://members.westnet.com.au/jonas1/deltaco2vstemp.jpg
The 1998 spike in both is the El Nino. Unless you want to argue that the El Nino was caused by CO2, then this shows conclusively that temperature affects CO2.
NB. It does not prove that CO2 does not affect temperature.

Editor
September 21, 2009 3:21 pm

PS. The temperature is scaled (ax+b where a=2.95.., b=1.64..).

Editor
September 21, 2009 3:43 pm

PPS. Frank Lansner, not Fred. Many apologies.

GP
September 21, 2009 5:25 pm

http://www.optimumpopulation.org/releases/opt.release09Sep09.htm
There are some interesting numbers related to carbon mitigation costs deep down in the press release.
There is also an unfortunate logic to the argument they put forward. Despite the potential for the proposed solution that could well extend a long way beyond carbon nonsense and into improved situations for the poorer parts of the world (and therefore the world in general) that chances of being able to control the social aspects are less than non-existent.
The concept of controlling the growth of the world population or even reducing the net population seems to fit poorly with many other human objectives.
So living longer would be a negative factor on the success of their proposals.
In the developed countries this would mean that health care should be reduced in order to encourage earlier exits. AIDS treatments are obviously very much a lost opportunity for population reduction.
In less developed countries one might assume that Aids and indigenous illness treatmeant would be withdrawn. Malaria could be encouraged as a ‘natural’ popuklation reduction tool. (Indeed one wonders if that has been the case for the last 40 years or so anyway.)
By planning to increase energy prices ‘massively’, as all seem now to be predicting in order to get the idea accepted as a fait accompli, we could anticipate that people living in cold climates will have to forego heating and hot food. That should help the headcount reduction targets.
Likelwise in the hotter areas the heat can be allowed to take effect.
Presumably the pressures of migration this will create as people attempt to move to more temperate regions will lead to a few violent clashes and perhaps full blown wars, all good for reducing headcount.
If the rate of reduction is too slow one can always open a few research labs and lat various killer diseases loose. That said the treatment for ‘swine’ flu seems to be worse than the illness in terms of fatalities so maybe they are already carrying out live beta tests for the second stage strategy.
There is more, but I think people here will get the drift. It all adds another slant to that overused phrase ‘Think of the children.’

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