India says no to climate alarmism

INDIA ATTACKS WESTERN CLIMATE ALARMISM

Financial Times, 24 July 2009

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c2896b88-77bd-11de-9713-00144feabdc0.html

By James Lamont in New Delhi, Joshua Chaffin in Are and Fiona Harvey in London

Himalayas a key area of contention.

http://michaelgreenwell.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/himalayas.jpg?resize=300%2C238

Excerpts:

A split between rich and poor nations in the run-up to climate-change talks widened on Thursday.

India rejected key scientific findings on global warming, while the European Union called for more action by developing states on greenhouse gas emissions.

Jairam Ramesh, the Indian environment minister, accused the developed world of needlessly raising alarm over melting Himalayan glaciers.

He dismissed scientists’ predictions that Himalayan glaciers might disappear within 40 years as a result of global warming.

“We have to get out of the preconceived notion, which is based on western media, and invest our scientific research and other capacities to study Himalayan atmosphere,” he said.

“Science has its limitation. You cannot substitute the knowledge that has been gained by the people living in cold deserts through everyday experience.”

Mr Ramesh was also clear that India would not take on targets to cut its emissions, even though developed countries are asking only for curbs in the growth of emissions, rather than absolute cuts.

India has taken the hardest line in the negotiations so far. Along with China, India refused at the meeting of the Group of Eight industrialised nations this month to sign up to a target of cutting global emissions by half by 2050. The countries were holding out to gain concessions from the west on financing.

The claims from Mr Ramesh that Western science was wrong on the question of melting Himalayan glaciers appeared to reinforce Delhi’s recalcitrant stance.

Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.

Mr Ramesh said the rate of retreat of glaciers in the Himalayas varied from a “couple of centimetres a year to a couple of metres”, but that this was a natural process that had taken place occurred over the centuries. Some were, in fact, growing, he said.

The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.

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99 thoughts on “India says no to climate alarmism

  1. “The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.”
    There it is. Gotta git rid of all those people who are screwing up the planet. (/sarcoff) .

  2. Well, here we go again.
    Himalayan Glaciers disappearing in forty years!
    Himalayan Glaciers are expanding.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3563714/Stubborn-glaciers-fail-to-retreat-awkward-polar-bears-continue-to-multiply.html
    The tourism argument is BS and shows how weak the arguments are.
    India is right and their rejection could be our rescue.
    Every manufacturing company would move it’s operation to India as a consequence.

  3. The AGW’s are going to try and gloss over the most important consequence of this stance by India (and similar actions by China): If India and China do NOT sign onto the Carbon Control Agenda, then any hope of reducing worldwide emissions is doomed to failure. Cuts in Europe and the USA will simply be matched by corresponding increases in China and India.
    The numbers just won’t work. Without China and India, the US and Europe cannot bring down worldwide CO2 levels even if they shut down every factory they control. It simply can’t be done.
    The entire anti-carbon agenda has just become a demonstrably useless and self destructive obsession.

  4. Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.
    The truth of her attitude comes out. India’s population should remain poor so we don’t raise CO2 levels. We have to save the world and YOU have to sacrifice your future to do that.

  5. The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.
    News Flash! Himalayan Tourists Cause Global Warming!

  6. Obama has threatened to tax imports from countries who refuse to participate a Global Treaty and punish companies that move out to evade CO2 taxes.
    The word “trade war” already emerged in different economic publications.
    Several economic and legislative experts already stated that adoting existing Trade Agreements is illegal according to international law.
    Many economists have warned for any measures that promote isolationism and undermine free trade because it would deepen the current crises.
    Microsoft for example has threatened the US Administration that it will move it’s entire operation from the USA, taking it’s employees with it, if further taxes are imposed.
    If Obama continues his current course, it will damage US economic interests beyond repair.

  7. wws (07:28:06) : “The entire anti-carbon agenda has just become a demonstrably useless and self destructive obsession.”
    Well Said!

  8. Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.
    Fast industrialization would decimate the servant class don’t you know.
    It is truly astounding how totally evil Herr Clinton is. And her followers. And the followers of the Won.

  9. “Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.”
    that quote just pains me! basically, “i know you are terribly poor, but be sure to only let that improve very slowly.”

  10. the Swedish environment minister said poor countries must also do more to forge an agreement. “We are prepared to put money on the table. But it should also be said that if we don’t see significant reductions that will really deviate from business as usual . . . then there is no money,” Mr Carlgren said, singling out China, India, Brazil, South Africa and Indonesia. “We are also prepared to deliver financing, but we must see that there is something to pay for.”
    This would be plain blackmailing, however it is but a joke, because with what money are they going to finance us, or they are thinking to lend us their accounts in red or send us fake paper money?

  11. Hey Andrew, I see that you edited the “REQUIRED” warmist “facts” out of the story
    “The consequences of depleted glaciers – sensitive to rising temperature and humidity – would be dire.
    Seven of the world’s greatest rivers , including the Ganges and the Yangtze, are fed by the glaciers of the Himalayas and Tibet. They supply water to about 40 per cent of the world’s population.
    Water supply is likely to become an increasing national security priority for both India and China as they seek to maintain high economic growth rates and sustain large populations dependent on farming. Some scientists have warned that rivers such as the Ganges, Indus and Brahmaputra could become seasonal rivers as a result of global warming.
    Indians are also fearful of weakening monsoon rains. Some parts of India, including Delhi, the capital, are still waiting anxiously for this year’s rains to come in earnest. A late, or a poor, monsoon would be a drag on economic growth.
    Achim Steiner, executive director of the UN Environment Programme, has described melting glaciers as a “canary in the climate-change coal mine”, warning that billions of people depend on these natural water storage facilities for drinking water, power generation and agriculture.”
    [snip -policy, name incorrect also]

  12. It looks like the recently categorized “Third World” is now coming to our rescue. Or is it? Here is how it will work. The wonderful promotional pull by India that says “were open for business and we won’t do anything crazy” will be a huge attraction to the rest of Western industry who are under the push of crippling uncertainty and burgeoning enviromental taxes. They will move to India to escape the profit destroying nuttiness of the West and presto, carbon emissions will disappear from North America and Europe with no need for all that electricity with it will go jobs and investment. Meanwhile, the new arrivals in India will be able to pollute more than they can now resulting in an upsurge of CO2 to an even steeper trend than now along with a bunch of other ugly oxides, sulphates, etc. of the rest of the members of the Periodic Table of the Elements. Whenever socialist management replaces capitalism, it has horrible unintended consequences. Some like the Soviet Union experiment lasted for almost a century with over 50 million people dying or killed.

  13. From what I am reading it seems to me the Indians are being more honest in their refusal to play the CO2 game. The Chinese, Russians, and Brazilians give lip service to the IPCC, but the Indians give contrary evidence as their rationale.
    While I can sympathize with the Russians, et al. (they end up getting all the migrated industries), my respect goes to the Indians.

  14. “Achim Steiner, executive director of the UN Environment Programme, has described melting glaciers as a “canary in the climate-change coal mine”
    You better pray that “climate change” will cause continued melting of glaciers because if/when they start expanding again – and we are right on track for the end of this current interglacial period right about now, the consequences will be far more devastating than receding ice sheets.

  15. Glaciers disappearing in the Himalayas in 40 years is a nonsense. A shameless distortion of reality.
    Not even if temperatures were to rise 15°C (fifteen C!) even so, the highest glaciers still would remain.
    The fact is that there has been hardly any change in the last century in some glaciers. Take the Baltoro Glacier in the Karakorum. The end front is now 140 m ahead of where it was in 1954. It has advanced. With respect to 1909 it has retreated only 60m. Processes at play there are quite different from those at play in the Alps or Alaska. So much for global in global change.
    reference
    Better check for yourselves looking at these two images of Baltoro Glacier taken one century apart:
    http://tr.im/tRNW

  16. Anne (08:02:49) :
    Some scientists have warned that rivers such as the Ganges, Indus and Brahmaputra could become seasonal rivers as a result of global warming
    Please remember your third grade lessons: If heat goes up then sea water evaporates and it rains, so monsoon rains would increase. Do you remember?
    But, unfortunately, the world is cooling since 1998, we are at the beginning of a new Dalton or worse a Maunder like minimum.

  17. wws (07:28:06) :
    The entire anti-carbon agenda has just become a demonstrably useless and self destructive obsession.
    And has jeopardized the legitimate pursuit of alternative energy resources in the interest of national security. Besides, I like carbon-based lifeforms. I’m one.

  18. There has been vast deforestation in the Himalayan foothills, causing massive soil erosion and flooding on the plains of the Ganges and further down stream in the Ganges delta in Bangladesh, a major problem for the Bangladeshi authorities. This flooding is often attributed to sea-level rise.
    Deforestation also had another knock on effect, that of reducing the evapo-transpiration in the mountains, causing precipitation to be less and more infrequent, the monsoonal rainfall has also been episodic.
    If precipitation is lacking in the formative areas ie above the equilibrium line then of course the glacier, if not being replenished will begin to ablate and diminish.
    The result is that some glaciers have been in retreat, retreat of glaciers is not always reliant upon warming. Evidence in the Andes, in Chile/Argentina and New Zealand, shows that glaciers can be in retreat in some valleys and on the march in others in the next valley.
    The IPCC are very fond of depicting glacier retreat as fundamental proof of AGW, the photos of retreating ice are spectacular and it’s hard to deny the melt, however the full picture is still not clear, a few cold winters and the snows in Patagonia or the Southern Alps will replenish snow fields, in the Himalayas the future is not so clear.
    The Indians have every right to blow a raspberry at countries who want them to halt the economic progress of their state, it would be just another thing they could throw at the ‘Imperialist West’ and the “we know better attitude”.

  19. Anne (08:02:49) :
    40% of the world population is more than the combined population of all India and China. Are you suggesting that Southern India and Northern China also depend on glacier meltwater?
    Many big rivers start at little springs. You need to compare the discharge down the river with the meltwater discharge. Most of the big Asian rivers contribution is monsoon rains and ground water, not ice melt.

  20. Beware first world ex-rich countries, your green madness will force us, third world “poor” (and working hard) countries stop buying your debt.

  21. Anne (08:02:49) :
    Hey Andrew, I see that you edited the “REQUIRED” warmist “facts” out of the story
    “The consequences of depleted glaciers – sensitive to rising temperature and humidity – would be dire.
    Seven of the world’s greatest rivers , including the Ganges and the Yangtze, are fed by the glaciers of the Himalayas and Tibet. They supply water to about 40 per cent of the world’s population.

    Hi Anne, I don’t know if English is your mother tongue, but here is a lime test for FACTS. FACTS are things you can prove they happened or that are happening. So, there is not room for future tenses and conditionals when you are talking about facts.
    Everything you quoted has a future tense or future conditional, …would be dire… …it is likely to become… …could become seasonal rivers… A late, or a poor, monsoon would be … (India never had a late monsoon before?)
    This is not the language of facts, that is the language of scaremongers.

  22. What India must learn though is to continously strive to achieve a sustainable growth and protect and respect its natural resources – Himalayan glaciers included.
    Indian monsoon and water shortages, Himalayan glaciers and the economy are all related. In India -the MOEF, environmental consultants, academicians, other environmental groups are well aware of the environmental challenges the country is facing. A proactive stance and true commitment to environmental issues by Indian Government will go a long way towards India’s future.

  23. I wonder if they’ll be smart enough to use Copenhagen to call the whole thing off with maximum tears and stamped feet at India and China? Or will they soldier on through Scandinavian blizzards as wind turbines shatter in the cold telling us that seasonally adjusted it is the third warmest Dec. on record?

  24. This site provides Monsoon data and indicates that thus far the rain fall is down 18% against the average, not as much as the alarmists might be implying e.g. absence of a Monsoon. Of course 18% could still be critical and the site makes mention of extreme drought conditions resulting from variable Monsoon events. There are graphs for previous years and just eyeballing some of the recent graphs indicates that this slow start is not unknown.
    Watching TV reports during the Total Eclipse locals were complaining that Monsoon clouds were obscuring the view. 🙂
    http://www.tropmet.res.in/~kolli/mol/

  25. Didn’t the West already know well in advance that China, India and Russia would not go along with the West’s agenda?
    The bitterness of rejection is a strong drink.

  26. Mr Ramesh said …..The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, like you he said .
    I am just guessing Mr.Ramesh inner thoughts..:-)

  27. India would sign up to the warmist agenda soon enough if the Western developed countries paid them enough.

  28. The bogus science that allows warmists to decare CO2 a dangerous pollutant prevents the full development of coal fired power generation in developing African countries. This keeps them poor and forcing many Africans to become economic migrants into Europe.

  29. Let us hope that the developing world is strong enough to stand up and carry on developing, regardless of ‘our’ desire to tax ourselves back into the dark ages.

  30. “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series
    of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”
    – H.L. Mencken

  31. If India and China don’t play along, anthropogenic CO2 is sure to keep rising. This kills any chance that Gore and his minions will escape a true test of their theories. Instead of us only having a few years to save the planet, they only have a few years until we know the truth. The sun will set on all this bulloney the way it set on the Y2K bulloney.
    “The greatest hoax in the history of science and the largest scam in the history of man.”

  32. “debris and tourists”, sounds familiar. My bet is they have far more impact on the glaciers than AGW.

  33. Anne:
    A glacier is the equivalent of a dam. The run-off and seasonal problem can be readily managed with strategically located man-made dams. This is a readily managed problem.

  34. “Indians say no to climate alarmism.”
    “Kemo Sabe, [snip . . . ]
    [I don’t think we should be moseying around these here parts — we might violate sacred ground. ~ Evan]

  35. Glad to see recognition of ‘common knowledge’ based on centuries of life in an area seen as equally reasonable. Whether he’s right in this case is open, but it’s an important acknowledgement.
    Now if we would just get on with getting our energy supply suitably heterogeneous by 2020 then the world would be a happier place……..

  36. From the posting:
    “India rejected key scientific findings on global warming, . . . ”
    The above wording is unfortunate.
    This can be interpreted as meaning that although the scientific findings are correct, India has rejected them.
    The proper notion is that the AGW theory has been shown to be false and India recognizes this.

  37. Here’s a fun and interesting exercise: Go to Thomas http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c111query.html , and search on the word “climate” . It will return 234 hits on House and Senate Bills in the 111th Congress dealing with various aspects of climate change, including some with large expenditures of public money and taxes, etc. to fund those fun things. Enjoy.

  38. The GWrs. end has been predicted by the Mayan culture to happen on December 21st. 2012. LOL
    We’ll wait and see.

  39. You must not forget what Mahatma Gandhi said before the House of Lords in Britain. He said something like: “At the time when you were eating among youselves there were already universities in India”
    So they must have several thousand years of records of the himalayas glaciers.

  40. Those old cultures have the following procedure when facing such childish arguments/theories:
    1st.They smile at you.
    2nd.They bow before you.
    3rd. As soon as you turn your back….here comes the
    4th.: They fart at you

  41. I love the way Mr Ramesh verbally dumped La Clinton on her warmist behind. Not before time. More power (sic) to him!

  42. Here is another interesting article on the refusal of China, Russia, India, Brazil, etc., to reduce their pollution: click. Plenty of interesting links in it, too.
    China’s emissions are already 30% higher than U.S. emissions, and will double over the next seven years [and continue rising], while U.S. emissions stay about the same. And China holds upwards of a trillion dollars in U.S. debt. For China to claim that they are too poor to mitigate their emissions is not credible. What they are really demanding is the right to continue selling their manufactured products to the U.S., while American workers are hobbled by the higher costs resulting from our own pollution control.
    And Russia will not reduce their emissions either. Furthermore, the UN has been shoveling money in the form of carbon credits into Russia’s pockets; it began by buying Russia’s putative support for Kyoto with massive amounts of free carbon credits, and has continued ever since.
    And India has stated categorically that it will not reduce or slow its emissions, much less even slow their rate of increase — in addition, India has demanded $billions to be paid to them by U.S. taxpayers, as compensation for our head start toward an industrial society! This is hypocrisy from a country that has been around for a lot longer than the U.S. It is not the fault of U.S. taxpayers that India squandered that massive head start.
    If one dollar is paid to India for this extortion, every other country named here will line up for their share, too.
    My question is this: Who do U.S. legislators and the President represent?? American taxpayers? Or these foreign governments, who claim that they have a stake in collecting U.S. tax receipts? I’ve asked my Representative and Senators this question, and received no answer. I’d threaten to not vote for them, but they never had my vote to begin with.

  43. And who do we find supporting Mr Ramesh in his statements?
    A certain Rajendra Pachauri (Indian Railway economist). I suspect it is the same Rajendra Pachauri we are all familiar with.
    —-
    A well travelled friend of mine who has been to India many times over the last 40 years, most recently this year, is amazed and glad to see the material progress they are achieving.
    With these Eastern countries’ development, instead of starting a trade war, we should hoping that they still need our markets for their goods, because once they become self-sufficient, the West, and certainly Europe are going down the pan under the current plans.

  44. Speaking of India and climate:
    Indian Girls Plow Fields Naked in Attempt to Bring Rain
    Friday, July 24, 2009
    Indian farmers — desperate for rain — have asked their unmarried daughters to plow dry fields naked, in a bid to spark interest from the weather gods, and bring some badly needed monsoon rain.
    The nude girls in the eastern India state of Bihar chanted hymns as they plowed the fields, asking for rain, witnesses told Reuters.
    “They (villagers) believe their acts would get the weather gods badly embarrassed, who in turn would ensure bumper crops by sending rains,” Upendra Kumar, a village council official, told Reuters.
    “This is the most trusted social custom in the area and the villagers have vowed to continue this practice until it rains very heavily,” she told Reuters.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534753,00.html?test=latestnews

  45. Gore… the science is settled, Russians, Chinese, and Indian scientists have pulled back the curtain of fear mongering and obfuscation. The american scientists who went along to get along are the laughingstocks of real scientists worldwide… You did it to yourself by not addressing questions and inconsistencies in the global warming bugaboo… so shut up… pack your bags… go home and live on your ill gained millions…. better drop those vapor stocks now before you lose that money as you have your credibility….
    Mike

  46. OT, but worth noting:
    Meanwhile, back on the sun, Cycle 23 WILL NOT DIE!
    http://spaceweather.com
    Also OT, but curious…
    If the Daily Arctic Mean continues to stay below the historical avg, how is the artic sea ice still heading towards 2007 type record lows?

  47. India will continue to use coal to meet its energy demands, says Rajendra Pachauri, chair of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). “You cannot, in a democracy, ignore some of these realities and as it happens with the resources of coal that India has we really don’t have any choice but to use coal in the immediate short term,” he said. The Hindu, 22 July 2009

  48. So would Clinton advise borrowing money from China – so that the USA could then pay China … not to do whatever it does, that might enable China to lend money to the US?

  49. “Ants control ant-hill temperature strictly at 77°F.”…
    Are we pursuing the ant-hill model for our society?

  50. janama (14:07:36) :
    India will continue to use coal to meet its energy demands, says Rajendra Pachauri, chair of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). “You cannot, in a democracy, ignore some of these realities and as it happens with the resources of coal that India has we really don’t have any choice but to use coal in the immediate short term,” he said. The Hindu, 22 July 2009

    But it’s absolutely imperative that the US, a country with less than 1/3 the population of India, stop burning coal immediately.
    SHEESH!

  51. Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.

    It won’t end there. After Obama-care, Global Warming will be the next big issue on the president’s agenda, and he will speak to it directly and forcefully, just as he did nationally on health care. His third-world Harrier-in-Chief is Hillary Clinton, and she will not rest till she has drawn visible pollution / energy concessions from both India and China in order to legitimize those coerced from Americans under its cap-and-tax mandates.
    Re: R. Pachauri’s interesting quote,

    janama (14:07:36) :
    India will continue to use coal to meet its energy demands, says Rajendra Pachauri, chair of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). “You cannot, in a democracy, ignore some of these realities and as it happens with the resources of coal that India has we really don’t have any choice but to use coal in the immediate short term,” he said. The Hindu, 22 July 2009

    So Rajendra Pauchauri Is he an apologist for third-world coal use?
    It’s a strange world we live in. We send Hillary the Harrier over there to make us look better. They send Rajendra the poached-eyed potentate over here…
    Curiouser and curiouser!

  52. I still like the story about Russia biasing the Siberian temperatures to the “high” side,and passing them on to NOAA & GISS. Then the US will pass the Cap & Trade bill, and go farther into debt. Sort of like what Reagan did to Russia back when. Only the KGB could pull off something like that. Wonder what Eastern leader was in the KGB?

  53. Sunita (08:52:58) :
    “What India must learn though is to continously strive to achieve a sustainable growth and protect and respect its natural resources – Himalayan glaciers included”
    Shouldn’t we all. However, this has nothing to do with CO2. India has been sustaining themselves and living with their glaciers, etc for more than 5 millenia – I don’t think they are planning to stop. An unspoken subtext here (the crack about tourists fouling the glaciers was thrown in in case the reader didn’t know there was a subtext) is that Indians don’t need any more superior advice from old masters about how they should respect their natural resources and how they should conduct themselves. The ever so well-meaning philanthropic agencies, the UN, NGOs and bleeding hearts who come up with such unconscionable insults like “give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach him how to fish and he can feed himself forever” seem totally unaware that this is the most egregiously paternal and racist nonsense ever heard of. I worked for several years with the Geological Survey of Nigeria and a Nigerian geologist told me that the European (which includes N. Americans) can’t seem to understand why we take aid with one hand and slap them on the cheek with the other. I knew exactly what he meant.

  54. Jairam Ramesh should instead read the work of V. Ramanathan about regional and global dimming, instead.
    The Ramanathan team clearly shows that more than half of Himalayan warming is caused not by carbon dioxide, but from dark soot from coal plants, diesel engines and specially by rural biomass burning and wildfires.
    This is India (and China) personal greenhouse. India will pay a big price for ignoring global and regional climate change. When the monsoon will collapse and the glaciers end melting, guess who will pay: not the politicians and businesssmen , but the poor people send in the Dimming Path of pollution and drought.
    PD1: Ramanathan is an indian researcher, who analyses the asian “Atmospheric Brown Clouds (ABCs)”, a three kilometer thick layer of pollution ( black carbon and sulfate aerosols) over southern Asia.
    PD2: Don`t make confusion. The Himalayan and Hindukush glaciers ARE melting at record speeds. The ones that are growing are the Karakoram ones , probably because of a local microclimate pattern.

  55. The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.

    I’m curious to know how glaciers are impacted by “tourist warming”. I was a trekker in Western Nepal one summer, and would be mortified to think I had left my carbon footprint around those otherwise pristine white Annapurnas.
    Meant to follow the official tourist guide-book motto:
    “Take only photographs; leave only dollars.”

  56. My head is bowed to the wise Indians. In the end they will be proven right. How dare Hillary Clinton tell them what to do – just who do we (I’m referring to our socialist regime here) think we are!
    How ironic that in 10 to 20 years, Indians will face frustration when they call their bank about their credit card, only to be transferred to a darned New York call center… Thats if they even have power…

  57. . Nogw (08:48:18) :
    “Beware first world ex-rich countries, your green madness will force us, third world “poor” (and working hard) countries stop buying your debt.”
    Please, please tell the US Congress that. They seem to think being voted into office means someone just handed them a blank checkbook with an unlimited overdraft and they do not have to pay it back. Of course most of them are lawyers so the do not understand what the word “work” actually means, and that includes the ??? in the white house.
    I have trouble believing the madness taking place in that mid-Atlantic seaboard swampland. Could it be a symptom of breathing too much swamp gas?

  58. Nogw (11:21:26) :
    India & China probably have records we know nothing about. They didn’t last 1000’s of years because they laid out all their cards on the table.
    So, what’s up with the West taking a hammer to it’s kneecaps?
    The argument that Cap&Trade is in our national security interests is 180 out.
    It’s never in a nation’s best interest to cripple itself from resources.

  59. A test for the British at heart –
    These are actual comments from Real Climate, except for one that I made up. Can you guess which one it is?
    “All these trends are just so pesky. After all the shouting, the data just keeps on heading in the wrong direction for us all, regardless of whether we’ve got feet anchored to the ground or dancing on moonbeams. That’s why we see a multitude of painfully contorted attempts to undermine trends, each and every one.”
    “Something nominally alive appears to have broken loose in the Arctic, perhaps from the bottom of the sea floor, or maybe from the bottom of the ice itself. It might also just be a floating mat of something that is normally afloat, but my experience with mats like this is they tend to break free of a substrate of some kind and then float as a unit until something (usually the wind) disrupts them. While the goo itself doesn’t appear to pose a problem (I’d not want to get any on my clothes, by the looks of it) the very fact of it existing at all in this location has people stumped.”
    “With all the hot air about cow flatulence and methane, how can we really be sure whether caps on CO2 will help global warming? So many factors…it makes my head hurt.”
    “Why…ignoring…..predictions…don’t factor…black carbon…factored in—and if so, how…accurate predictions…change over a year…energy mix…foreseeable future—…habits…not precisely known [or nearly so]…future… models… predict…possibly be taken seriously…not telling…black carbon…disrupting…damaged economies…CO2… emissions trading schemes —schemes…unemployment, inflation…income…disruption…dislocation…harm…country…Obama …defer…exhort…black carbon…mitigation…economy-destroying CO2 emissions legislation…AGW side…desperate…focus on CO2?”
    “That was one of the best articles I’ve read here. Thank you. It will be interesting to see this tested in the coming years, unless some other unknown factor confuses us.”
    🙂

  60. Re: Sending Billions overseas to buy complicity in warming madness….
    How many Americans voted in this last election, thinking they were just choosing a guy who sounded smart and had a nice smile? How many thought he was just another figurehead administrator of a political machine that never changed anything in more than a nuisance fashion? Little did they know their choice might ultimately bankrupt this country. But the evidence was right there in his promises.
    I’m going off the grid.

  61. How come Western citizens take such a sympathetic approach while Western governments try to stuff expensive green technology down our throat? Is it because you, private citizens, do not have the agenda of selling technology?
    But the fact remains that Himalayan glaciers are shrinking at an alarming rate. In Garhwal Himalayas (I am an avid trekker), I have seen that happen to about 10 glaciers myself. And the fact that local mountain guides are left scratching their head every summer, seeing how far the glacial snout has retreated.
    The way out? It’s anybody’s guess!!

  62. Why do most of the comments refer to keeping the third world countries poor by making them enforce CO2 limits, when in fact the real premise behind AGW is to move Western prosperity to the third world and even out the world’s standard of living through a socialist world (UN) government?

  63. I’m not sure exactly how the US election system works, but I believe in less than a year and a half the US electorate will be able to demonstrate how they feel about AGW and it’s consequences. Only if radical haven’t taken place, or been announced by then will the incumbent party have a chance of saving elected representatives!

  64. I’m with Mr. Ramesh. With millions of my people living below the poverty line, I’ll only be happy for them to be able to earn a respectable livelihood instead of having them bear witness to Himalayan glaciers still intact. To Hillary: I’m not gonna let my government spend an extra penny to cut down on the emissions of your country.
    At least I’m saying no to your face.

  65. Bill P (16:23:05) :
    The impact of tourism on glaciers is only an impact on tourist themselves, if improperly managed. That means garbage and drinking water pollution will affect other humans. If properly managed: nothing. Actually better than nothing, because it will improve the living condition of other humans (does Swiss tourism is a valid example?)
    The impact on the glacier itself is negligible, the effect on retreat and mass balance is a zero-point-followed by as many zeroes as you please. Saying otherwise is just a case of eco-misanthropy mixed with delusions of an anthropocentric universe.
    Another case of eco-misanthropy is that while there are pollutants that affect human health in a proven way, all the effort to combat their emissions is diverted to the innocuous CO2.

  66. How many people find it really humorous that cows are revered in India? Loads, right? If you, for a moment, really look at the rationale of of not eating (or mass breeding) cows, it’s not that funny. India is a really old (ancient) and very wise civilization. One might laugh at some absurd customs (like curiousgeorge some comments above), but don’t disregard the wisdom built over millenniums.
    Hillary Clinton says that India should not repeat the mistakes of the West. It might seem a chauvinist statement with regard to the context she said it in. But we DO sincerely need to learn from these mistakes, and not with respect to carbon emissions but immensely irrational lifestyles. Our ecological murdering lifestyles of the modern, dare I say, Western is the biggest threat to the planet.
    And don’t forget, poverty is a much greater pollutant than carbon.
    PS : Withe respect to curiosgeorge’s comment above, Indians find it just as funny that ‘Evolution’ is a national debate in the USA.

  67. Thank Shiva that the Indians are able to think a little more laterally and have avoided being sucked into the emotional drama of the alarmists. And if anyone has a chance to make money out of anthropomorphic warming it’s India. At least they are considering a well informed opinion in contrast to an emotional vortex.
    With any luck India will avoid The New Green Dark Ages, as the west dives head first into politicised stupidity. Thanks for the article !

  68. Gary Pearse (16:16:19) :
    The ever so well-meaning philanthropic agencies, the UN, NGOs and bleeding hearts who come up with such unconscionable insults like “give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach him how to fish and he can feed himself forever” seem totally unaware that this is the most egregiously paternal and racist nonsense ever heard of. I worked for several years with the Geological Survey of Nigeria and a Nigerian geologist told me that the European (which includes N. Americans) can’t seem to understand why we take aid with one hand and slap them on the cheek with the other. I knew exactly what he meant.

    Great point (small caveat is I wouldn’t call it racist). But the greenies do suffer from this arrogance; they imagine they are the only ones who are ethically noble enough, and therefore superior enough, to handle the world’s problems. They continue to preach to us that the third world is full of “victims”, so surprise surprise when those “victims” turn around and restate their national right to do things their own way.

  69. @ sykik (23:52:43) :
    Just so you know; I’m quite sure that Al Gore’s climate dance is equally as effective as the Indian maids version. The major difference is that the Indian custom is not forcibly imposed on their neighbors, whereas the Climate bill being Rahmed thru Congress most certainly is; and at great cost to the general public. We are being raped, and then handed the bill by our rapist.

  70. Aditi Mukherjee said:
    But the fact remains that Himalayan glaciers are shrinking at an alarming rate. In Garhwal Himalayas (I am an avid trekker), I have seen that happen to about 10 glaciers myself. And the fact that local mountain guides are left scratching their head every summer, seeing how far the glacial snout has retreated.
    The way out? It’s anybody’s guess!!

    The way out is to relax; the glaciers are only doing what they’ve always done, which is to grow, then shrink, then grow again. There is no cause for fear and alarm over the glaciers, nor is there anything we can do to keep them from doing what they’ve always done. Shrinking glaciers are simply a convenient hook for the climate alarmists to use, since they are something you can actually see. If you need something to worry about, worry about lowered living standards and poverty, as it they are by far, the biggest threat not only to humanity but to the environment as well. Raising the cost of energy is one surefire way to lower living standards and increase poverty.

  71. India’s position?
    Translation:
    If you in the West want to commit economic and cultural suicide, have at it. That’ll just give us more money, power, and influence.
    As for all your models that forecast doom by 2100, they’re right – doom for the US as it joins the UK on the world’s sidelines, reminiscing about its glory days, while we and China become the world’s economic powerhouses.

  72. Steve in SC (05:45:19) :
    Just because our leadership here has it collective head inserted into a black hole does not mean the rest of us willingly follow. We happen to be the sole case of Cap&Trade in the US. The inability of California to extricate itself from the wholesale damage Enron perpetratred on the State should send chills down your spine.
    Ask not for whom the carbon bell tolls, it tolls for thee.

  73. India is one of the very few countries that has the lowest per capita CO2 emissions. About 8 to 10 times lower than USA. Still it is silently evolving into a lower carbon emission countries.
    The problem of climate change is created by the US and the west. Lets get commitments from the culprits rather than India and China. They had Kyoto protocol for decade and all that west did was talk and talk. Never implemented any of its commitments. Lets see action from the west. After we see tangible reduction from the west in the next 2 decades we should talk to India and China.
    Till then lets not divert the issue of Climate change from the west.

  74. Andrew,
    The use of ‘per capita’ in emissions is a completely bogus argument. There is only one atmosphere, and whatever is put into it adds to it, whether emitted by one person or a million people.
    Consider this thought experiment: I am the sole resident of my mythical country. Population = 1. If I put out the average of, say, EU emissions, then China and India can claim they are emitting less on a ‘per capita’ basis.
    Please join me in shoving this ‘per capita’ argument up their dishonest butts. Otherwise you, too, are misrepresenting the situation.
    The above example was intended to show the per capita argument’s fallacy. In reality, CO2 is entirely beneficial. More CO2 is better. Much more CO2 is much better.
    I hope this helps you see the light.

  75. Andrew said:
    The problem of climate change is created by the US and the west. Lets get commitments from the culprits rather than India and China.
    Climate change isn’t created by anyone, Andrew. The “culprit” is primarily changes in the oceans and the sun. C02 is nothing but a bit player.
    Furthermore, climate change, particularly warming isn’t nearly the problem it’s made out to be by the MSM, by politicians, and those with vested interests in keeping alarmism alive for as long as they can. Many of the “problems” associated with climate change have little to do with climate, and more to do with stupidity and ignorance.
    Climate change can be a challenge, certainly, in that we have to figure out how best to adapt to it, which we’ve always managed to do. A cooling climate, which appears to be happening now will, by far, be much more challenging to humanity than the moderately warming one we had last century.

  76. Bruce Cobb (10:23:26) :
    Climate change isn’t created by anyone, Andrew.
    However, you will agree that there were some “climate models” which, beginning back in the 80´s some invented to scare people in order to achieve some unknown goals for them, and when they realized that “global warming” was simply not going to happen, they change its label to “climate change”…so there are some “authors” out there of this scam. Don´t you think so?

  77. he problem of climate change is created by the US and the west. Lets get commitments from the culprits rather than India and China.
    Of course. By 2020 China’s CO2 output will be double the USA’s. If the USA reduced its output to zero by 2020 it would hardly make a difference at the rate China and India are growing.

  78. Bruce Cobb (10:23:26) :
    ‘ “global warming” was simply not going to happen, they change its label to “climate change”…’
    First, there was “CO2 induced global warming” until “They” found out that the rise in CO2 came after rise in “Temperature”.
    The “Spin Misters” droped “CO2 induced” part.
    “Global Warming” became “Climate Change” when “They” found out that “Monthly Adverage Temperatures” were going down,
    which was comfirmed by ARGO.

  79. The current Australian Govt under K Rudd is certainly patronising towards the Indian people.
    K Rudd tore up an agreement for India to access Australian uranium which India wanted so it could build more nuclear power plants rather than coal powered power stations.
    So now K Rudd will yell at India for building more coal powered stations.
    With the way K Rudd is annoying our neighbours in Asia we will be back to the 1970’s with our Asian neighbours.

  80. “Andrew (08:50:17) :
    India is one of the very few countries that has the lowest per capita CO2 emissions. About 8 to 10 times lower than USA. Still it is silently evolving into a lower carbon emission countries.
    The problem of climate change is created by the US and the west. Lets get commitments from the culprits rather than India and China. They had Kyoto protocol for decade and all that west did was talk and talk. Never implemented any of its commitments. Lets see action from the west. After we see tangible reduction from the west in the next 2 decades we should talk to India and China.
    Till then lets not divert the issue of Climate change from the west.”
    Andrew, this is bogus. The problem is “emissions” are very easy to calculate in Western countries. In India, China and in particular Africa for instance, the calculation is an estimate (An estimate calculated in the West, by the IPCC), and let me assure you, it’s bigger than you have been lead to believe.
    But mate, climate change “created” by the US and the west?? Seriously, you need to get out and read a little.

  81. “Allan (01:29:28) :
    The current Australian Govt under K Rudd is certainly patronising towards the Indian people.
    K Rudd tore up an agreement for India to access Australian uranium which India wanted so it could build more nuclear power plants rather than coal powered power stations.
    So now K Rudd will yell at India for building more coal powered stations.
    With the way K Rudd is annoying our neighbours in Asia we will be back to the 1970’s with our Asian neighbours.”
    Peter “I *am* an environmentalist, honest guv!” Garret (The musician) has just authorised a new uranium mine for South Australia (4th I think) because he *considered* all of the available *science* on the subject.
    Well, Mr Garret, open-cast mining is pretty devastating to the environment didn’t you know? Dr Hansen is opposed to “removing mountain tops”, but digging a big hole is ok with you? I’d bet AU$100 you’ve not even been there, just seen the “glossies”, and just ticked the box.
    Mr Garret, you could not even be bothered to vote yourself, given voting (Or registering to vote) is compulsory in Australia. Clearly there are some very gullible people in Australia (Or maybe they’re on dope, eh Peter?).
    Can you sleep when your bed is burning Mr Garret?

  82. “Well, Mr Garret, open-cast mining is pretty devastating to the environment didn’t you know?”
    Wonder how open-cast uranium mines compare to open cast coal for energy per cubic mile of hole??

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