In the “Steig et al – falsified” thread, since we have been discussing geothermal activity along the Antarctic peninsula, I thought I’d pass along these images that show other parts of the planet where geothermal heat seems capable of melting ice and making it all the way to the surface. Lake Baikal is quite deep, over 5000′ feet in places, so this demonstrates that even in deep water, the melting of ice from that geothermal heat is a real possibility. Hat tip to WUWT commenter “Mark” – Anthony
By Betsy Mason, Wired News
Astronauts aboard the International Space Station noticed two mysterious dark circles in the ice of Russia’s Lake Baikal in April. Though the cause is more likely aqueous than alien, some aspects of the odd blemishes defy explanation.
The two circles are the focal points for ice break-up and may be caused by upwelling of warmer water in the lake. The dark color of the circles is due to thinning of the ice, which usually hangs around into June.
Upwelling wouldn’t be strange in some relatively shallow areas of the lake where hydrothermal activity has been detected, such as where the circle near the center of the lake (pictured below) is located.
Circles have been seen in that area before in 1985 and 1994, though they weren’t nearly as pronounced. But the location of the circle near the southern tip of the lake (pictured above) where water is relatively deep and cold is puzzling.
The lake itself is an oddity. It is the largest by volume and the deepest (5370 feet at its deepest point), as well as one of the oldest at around 25 million years. The photo above was taken by an astronaut from the ISS.
The photo below was taken by NASA’s MODIS satellite imager.
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I’m just sitting here wondering how CNN or some other media outlet will spin this as further “proof” of AGW.
Interesting stuff – are there any temperature records for the area? lake?
In following a link from a post here about the release of his book “Heaven and Earth”, I watched a presentation by Ian Plimer, in which he indicated that recent evidence suggested that ocean floor vulcanism was much more extensive than had previously been thought. I recall wondering at the time whether anyone had attempted to quantify and include this heat input into calculations of climate trends. It would seem to me that even given the vastness of the world’s oceans, the continuous input of heat volcanoes provide would have to be accounted for to achieve a reliable model.
There is a lot of data on thermal profiles of Lake Baikal over the last 50 years or more. No evidence for geothermal upwelling. Since the density of water is greatest at 3.8oC, It seems impossible for warm water to upwell under ice conditions.
The following study which should be readily available on line found that Lake Baikal is permanently stratified at depths below 250 m. This would seem to rule out any geothermal effects on ice.
Small-Scale Turbulence and Vertical Mixing in Lake Baikal
Thomas M. Ravens, Otti Kocsis, Alfred Wuest and N. Granin
Limnology and Oceanography, Vol. 45, No. 1 (Jan., 2000), pp. 159-173
Published by: American Society of Limnology and Oceanography
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Fascinating. I would have expected more of a complete circle than the circular ring that is evident.
Nature’s just full of surprises.
“Bill D (14:18:30) :
The following study which should be readily available on line found that Lake Baikal is permanently stratified at depths below 250 m. This would seem to rule out any geothermal effects on ice.”
OR…
They’re wrong.
JimB
Here’s another good study on the temperature profiles of Lake Baikal. They used a temperature probe with a resolution of 0.003oK, which was needed to study changes in the temperature of the deep waters of the lake. At one point they found what they described as a “drastic” 0.1oC change in temperature.
Processes of Deep-Water Renewal in Lake Baikal
R. Hohmann, R. Kipfer, F. Peeters, G. Piepke and D. M. Imboden
Limnology and Oceanography, Vol. 42, No. 5, Part 1 (Jul., 1997), pp. 841-855
Published by: American Society of Limnology and Oceanography
Sure, that’s what they want us to think. The Commies are up to something.
The ring aspect, rather than a round splotch, might be caused by the dynamics of a warm blob rising through the water, upwelling in the center and drag around the periphery generating something of a smoke ring effect, which can be quite stable, by the time it reaches the surface. You can see the effect by dropping a drop of ink in a glass of warmer water that’s been sitting long enough to become still. The ink drifts downward and can form a ring.
Bill D is right about the density of fresh water peaking at 3.8C and as it is warmed, it gets less dense and will rise rapidly in a deep lake scenario.
But it will take a huge amount of heat to not dissipate away as it rises to the surface through that kind of depth.
Lake Baikal is actually a rift valley, where the ocean crust is pulling apart – essentially the beginnings of Eurasia splitting apart as all large continental conglomerations seem to do eventually.
Hopefully, this does not signal bigger eruptions to come because a similar scenario in the Siberian craton 251 million years ago resulted in the largest eruptions in Earth’s history and they lasted for 1 million years – probably the reason for the Permian extinction event.
Bill Illis (15:16:05) :That fault is active:
MOSCOW, Aug. 27 (Xinhua) — A strong earthquake jolted the southern part of Russia’s Lake Baikal area Wednesday morning, Russian news agencies reported.
There are no reports of casualties so far.
The earthquake, measuring 6-7 on the Richter scale, occurred at10:35a.m. local time (0135 GMT) in Irkutsk, according to the Irkutsk seismic station>/i>
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-08/27/content_9722816.htm
Could these rings be the result of hot gas being released at the lake floor creating toroidal bubbles which are totally stable as they rise through a denser medium. The size of the toroidal bubble depends on the volume of gas released.
Dolphins have been observed to create small ones. Here’s a photo of one.
http://www.oceanlight.com/lr/tran/20779.jpg
I understand that both liquids and gases under stable conditions will stratify based on temperature with sometimes quite distinct boundaries. In the case of the atmosphere a temperature inversion is the most obvious and visible, and can be sufficiently stable to prevent thermals going beyond. However, in the case of Cumulo Nimbus clouds (CBs) the thermic activity can become very strong and more organised so that a very large CB will break through the thermal layer at the Tropopause. All that is required to break through any stability is sufficient force.
In the case of the rings it looks like force has been applied to water from below, as in the case of smoke rings. And it would appear with suficient force to break through any stability.
If we say this is not possible isn’t it a bit like saying Bees can’t fly?
Both rings are about five miles across, according to the scale key.
Re:
Is heat a byproduct of earthquake fault activity?
Mike McMillan (15:07:29) : “The Commies are up to something.”
Perhaps, but how could they make those rings all the way from Washington, DC?
My guess is that there is seepage of gas from the bottom of the lake. Perhaps H² or He or Radon. I’m not sure why the ring is formed, but it may have to do with the mechanics of a big bubble under the ice. Like Leon Brozyna (14:18:38), I’d expect an open hole, not a ring. Is a puzzlement.
Here is an interesting article on Lake Baikal:
http://www.physorg.com/news128853207.html
The researchers are sure it’s global warming. Commenters… not so much.
In other news: ‘AFP
‘Huge undersea mountain found off Indonesia: scientists
‘Fri May 29, 2:00 pm ET
‘JAKARTA (AFP) – A massive underwater mountain discovered off the Indonesian island of Sumatra could be a volcano with potentially catastrophic power, a scientist said Friday.
‘Indonesian government marine geologist Yusuf Surachman said the mountain was discovered earlier this month about 330 kilometres (205 miles) west of Bengkulu city during research to map the seabed’s seismic faultlines.
‘The cone-shaped mountain is 4,600 metres (15,100 feet) high, 50 kilometres in diameter at its base and its summit is 1,300 metres below the surface, he said.
“It looks like a volcano because of its conical shape but it might not be. We have to conduct further investigations,” he told AFP.’
Name a conical mountain that isn’t a volcano. Quick, now! Name one!
To get an idea of the scale of the top image (at the southern or western tip of the lake), I measure the distance across the lake as about 7.1 km a little from the west end (Baikal to Slyudyanka). Along the west coastline, from the nw corner to Cape Shamansky (maybe 2/3rds the distance along the west shoreline) is 3.6 km. That’s similar to the diameter of the circle.
So the circumference of that circle is about 12 km, and the distance from the inside to the outside of the thickest part of the crescent is a few km. Takes a lot of heat to affect that much ice.
That’s an awesome photo.
Just a headsup, that first sentence, “were” should be “where.”
Articles like this is one of the many reasons why I enjoy this site.
Antony, it is quite obvious that have a massive volcanic eruption under a glacier can have no warming effect, but that a 4% increase in infrared radiation will cause a glacier to disappear like an ice cube in a pressure cooker.
Since several years there were quakes on a line NE and SW of the Baikal Sea:
http://www.iris.edu/seismon/zoom/?view=eveday&lon=113&lat=56
Lake Baikal is sitting on a line where sometimes in the – far – future, Asia will fall apart.
For more on latest quakes, here:
http://www.iris.edu/seismon/last30days_Central_Asia.html
Bill P (16:50:08) :Usually along faults like all around the pacific sea there are hot spots where lava and/or gases, like H2S (sulfhydric gas) are ejected at high pressures forming metals sulphides (all mineral sulphides, as zinc sulphide-spharelite, copper sulphide -covellite-,etc. have this “thermal”origin).