In the “Steig et al – falsified” thread, since we have been discussing geothermal activity along the Antarctic peninsula, I thought I’d pass along these images that show other parts of the planet where geothermal heat seems capable of melting ice and making it all the way to the surface. Lake Baikal is quite deep, over 5000′ feet in places, so this demonstrates that even in deep water, the melting of ice from that geothermal heat is a real possibility. Hat tip to WUWT commenter “Mark” – Anthony
By Betsy Mason, Wired News
Astronauts aboard the International Space Station noticed two mysterious dark circles in the ice of Russia’s Lake Baikal in April. Though the cause is more likely aqueous than alien, some aspects of the odd blemishes defy explanation.
The two circles are the focal points for ice break-up and may be caused by upwelling of warmer water in the lake. The dark color of the circles is due to thinning of the ice, which usually hangs around into June.
Upwelling wouldn’t be strange in some relatively shallow areas of the lake where hydrothermal activity has been detected, such as where the circle near the center of the lake (pictured below) is located.
Circles have been seen in that area before in 1985 and 1994, though they weren’t nearly as pronounced. But the location of the circle near the southern tip of the lake (pictured above) where water is relatively deep and cold is puzzling.
The lake itself is an oddity. It is the largest by volume and the deepest (5370 feet at its deepest point), as well as one of the oldest at around 25 million years. The photo above was taken by an astronaut from the ISS.
The photo below was taken by NASA’s MODIS satellite imager.
Usually, the most quakes are at the rim of plates. Within plates, quakes are – mostly – rare, happens about every 3000-5000 years. It needs quite some time that enough pressure has been build. One of the most severe quakes – within a plate – was the Tangshan quake, 1976, official casualties were about 250,000, unofficially about 1,100,000.
What is still due is a major quake in central Europe, last one was about 10,600 yrs BP.
Some about quakes in Europe:
http://seismologie.oma.be/dir1600/pdf/A02.pdf
re:
Adolfo Giurfa (17:52:45) : Are you in the geological/mining/mineral bizz?
I’ve a mineral with my family name:
http://www.mindat.org/min-12895.html
The volcano west of Bengkulu city shows up on Google Earth.
Hello?
Does anybody see the second circle in the upper RH corner of the second picture – just to the left of the tip of a small island?
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Doh! I see the small arrow now pointing out the second ring too; is this too much of a conicidence for two of these to be in the same lake?
Possible human source: how about a submarine blowing ballast tanks (underwater air release), the ice bulges, difference in optical reflectivity/albedo appears, etc?
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It’s “Volcanism” btw 😛
Proper noun
Vulcanism
(historical) The belief, held mostly in the 18th century, that rocks were formed in fire. This theory was a rival theory to Neptunism.
Where divergent plate boundaries exist, so does heat – and lots of it. Just look at Iceland – it sits on the divide between the North American and Eurasian plates. There is a tremendous amount of geothermal heat related to this, not to mention volcanic and earthquakes.
I don’t see why this could not be attributed to geothermal or even volcanic upwelling. I would like to know what kind and volume of gases involved as well as what the lake floor looks like before I rule out that possibility. There are some interseting dynamics at play here, and I for one, would only dismiss atmospheric warming out as improbable.
A bit O/T. George E. Smith made a comment recently about IR being unable to penetrate water by more than 10 microns or so. I have been looking for data on this effect and have found that water is heated mostly by short wave radiation up to 3 microns. Since rather more than 70% of this planet is wet, how does “back radiation” warm these wet areas?
Have asked the question “How does infrared radiation heat water from the top down?” with no response. Anybody know?
Pease note that there are many studies of the temperature of Lake Baikal, most with Russian, American and Swiss scientists. They measured lake temperatures to within 0.0003oC down to 1400 meters. They also measured conductivity to within 0.01 micro Siemens because small changes in salinity are driving patterns of mixing on a scale of years and decades. Changes in temperature of deep waters of 0.1oC are considered huge. Also realize that the sediment layer in the deep basins is thicker than 1 km. This is because the lake is over 25 million years old.
The deep waters of the lake do not deviate from the temperature of about 4oC by more than 0.1oC over time. There is no seasonal cycle at these great depths. It’s only the upper 100 m that are showing a very gradual warming trend over the last 60 years. Stephanie Hampton and Marianna Moore, two Americans, have been doing important research on the relation between warming in the upper 100 m and changes in the lake’s food web.
The articles that document these studies are readily found and accessed through Google Scholar. Type in “Baikal and water temperature” and/or “Lake Baikal and Climate change.” Clearly, Lake Baikal is not being affected by UHI’s even though there are some towns on its shores.
jorgekafkazar (16:55:08) :
Mike McMillan (15:07:29) : “The Commies are up to something.”
Perhaps, but how could they make those rings all the way from Washington, DC?
Ha ha… Actually the rings remind me of a tactic that russian nuke subs use to weaken ice prior to launching ICBMs. They release a bunch of warm reactor water into the ocean below the ice. NRO learned to spot these rings in the arctic when ICBM test launches were done.
I agree with Stephen Skinner (16:20:14) :
If we say this is not possible isn’t it a bit like saying Bees can’t fly?
Except would state it more strongly. Not a bit, exactly.
The problem is not if these rings exists, but by what physical mechanism.
Having seen explosions the throw gases kilometers into the air, one could have made this, creating an icequake and breaking the ice this way.
What were the seismographs saying the past months about volcanic activity? Is there water? what is its temperature? constituents? etc etc. It will provide some nice papers .
Just an observation.
The uppermost circle on the lower image seems to have a very faint outer larger circle I estimate at 20k diameter.The lower circle has an even fainter larger circle in proportion to the other circle.
(If you are using Firefox you can enlarge by Ctrl plus +)
On the the upper image the ice seems crushed around the circle whereas the ice on the remaining shore-line is intact.
Those circles are very circular and regular.
End of observation, I will return soon to the mother ship.
Mike Lorrey (22:52:15) :
jorgekafkazar (16:55:08) :
Mike McMillan (15:07:29) : “The Commies are up to something.”
Perhaps, but how could they make those rings all the way from Washington, DC?
They obviously used Michael Mann’s method of matching Paris rainfall with temperatures in Maine – they “Teleconnect”.
Lest we laugh, NOAA has jumped in to back up Mann’s ridiculous invention:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/teleconnect/teleconnect.html
It’s official. We’re doomed.
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Mike Lorrey (22:52:15) :
Ha ha… Actually the rings remind me of a tactic that russian nuke subs use to weaken ice prior to launching ICBMs. They release a bunch of warm reactor water into the ocean below the ice. NRO learned to spot these rings in the arctic when ICBM test launches were done.
I just knew it was a Commie trick. Can I call ’em or what, huh?
I recall from a long while ago that hovercraft moving over ice of less than a certain thickness would break it up. Maybe large gas releases would have the same effect from underneath. That ice around the ring is well massaged.
Whatever the phenomenon is, it’s fascinating. My non-geophysical brain is quite happy to cling to the geothermal activity theory. It’s the one that makes the most sense to me.
rickM (21:39:23) : Says,
“Just look at Iceland – it sits on the divide between the North American and Eurasian plates. There is a tremendous amount of geothermal heat related to this, not to mention volcanic and earthquakes.”
While this is true, it should lead to the question, well why doesn’t all of the mid-ocean ridge look like Iceland? The rift runs all the way up the middle of the Atlantic so something more must be happening at Iceland, and there is.
Not only is Iceland smack dab on the middle of a oceanic spreading center, Iceland is also home to a Hot-spot style volcano (e.g. Yellowstone, Hawaii). It’s the hot spot that is responsible for the bulk of the geothermal activity on Iceland.
I googled ‘Ice circles’ and they are quite common – formed by eddies in rivers and lakes. Here are a few photos; the last one is an animation.
http://www.kornsirkler.org/Relaterte/Is-sno/1987Sverige/1987-Sverige-is-report.htm
http://www.neatorama.com/2008/09/10/ice-circles/
http://s0006.photobucket.com/albums/0006/pbhomepage/?action=view¤t=StrangeIceCircle.flv
The position of the one near the end of the lake is such that it was probably formed at the start of the winter from an eddy as the Irkutsk River continued to flow into the lake. As the circle eventually ices over completely the ring of formerly open water would be filled in by an ice slurry and would have thinner ice than the circle and surrounding lake ice, so the ring would stay visible for longer.
Two further links – Scientific report
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf112/sf112p09.htm
Another video (not animation, silly me)
http://levelbeyond.com/2009/01/16/crop-circle-no-ice-circle/
Hmm, strange the Baikal circles are only showing up now. I’m still thinking thinner ice on the periphery has a different structure and is less resitant to melting. Perhaps the formation would be visible from archived photos earlier in the year as ice started to form. I was going to say would these not have been reported in Russia in the Autumn if they started to form then, but the size is such they may not be visible from the shore. The size does seem much larger than other circles where eddies are prbably the cause.
Incidently, there is a strange anomaly over the centre of the satellite picture of Lake Baikal on Google Earth. Above Chivyrkuy – it looks like a freeway in mid air with fading at either end. I assume it is something sensitive deliberately blanked out.
Anthony,
It appears that these ‘rings’ are close to an annual event……
http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/15-05-2009/107565-lake_baikal-0
http://www.scanex.ru/en/news/News_Preview.asp?id=n24767232
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=3251
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=5296
Interestingly there appears to be an extremely high evaporation rate (lake effect?) at the southern end of Lake Baikal……
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=6157
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=2239
Also of interest is the content of the sediments in the lake’s bed…….
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/00977/EGU05-J-00977.pdf
Thanks Ellie, for the links you found. They look like conservation of angular momentum :), that is why they are so circular.
The large one on this topic though does not look similar. One would need to look at all the winter snapshots of the lake to get a better idea.
Don’t forget that the ice on Lake Baikal is first-year ice and as the AGW proponents have said it is much more vulnerable to melt…
Ellie in Belfast (03:03:26) : The position of the one near the end of the lake is such that it was probably formed at the start of the winter from an eddy as the Irkutsk River continued to flow into the lake
The only problem here is that the river(Angara) flows “out of” rather than “into” the lake at Irkutsk.
As a geologist I thought it might be escaping shallow trapped biogenic gas, so I searched google.
This was the first item that popped up.
http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/15-05-2009/107565-lake_baikal-0
Bingo!
Shaun B. (04:28:41)
Looks like you found that link first!
Anna, I agree the Baikal ones look different. The second of ShaunB’s links is good as it has several – different places. I did find a lot on currents in the lake, didn’t read in detail, but enough to wonder if perhaps temporary, wind driven currents and eddies at the time the ice is forming could be responsible.