Renewable energy – our downfall?

This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.

For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government  subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony

Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis

The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.

So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.

Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.

However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.

The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.

This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.

But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.

Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.

Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.

While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.

But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.

This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:

a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.

b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.

c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.

The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?

In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.

Nuclear

But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.

In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.

What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.

While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)

Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.

And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.

However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.

We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!

Ralph Ellis

June 2004

1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.

2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.

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Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 7:38 pm

Mr Lynn (19:09:25) :
If it isn’t law yet then they shouldn’t have said :
“This bill, when enacted into law this year… ”
They should have said “if” not “when”, shouldn’t they?
http://energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1630:energy-and-commerce-committee-passes-comprehensive-clean-energy-legislation&catid=122:media-advisories&Itemid=55
This is a quote. copy and paste, from the government web site, the link above :
“This bill, when enacted into law this year, will break our dependence on foreign oil, make our nation the world leader in clean energy jobs and technology, and cut global warming pollution.”

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 8:06 pm

joletaxi (08:51:04) :
I guess You will apologize iff I submit this in French, but I’m not enough fluent in English, in a matter that is not easy even in French.
Si je suis d’accord sur les objections soulevées dans l’article,

My rough summary of the original would be:
“As I am in accord with the objections shown in the article”… And then there is a discussion of the problems of maintaining phase sync and power factors with so many distributed generators and even with photovoltaic inverters (that may not even have sin wave output). This can cause a variety of problems, even causing the grid to shut down as breakers trip. As load goes on /off wind turbines, it is even harder to keep them synchronized for frequency and with proper current / voltage phase relationships. There is a discussion of issues that Germany has seen and their dislike of the problem.
It’s been a few years since I tackled a technical discussion in French, but I think I got the basic idea right. This will be my summary of the issues raised as I understand it. And it is true that with so many spinning generators keeping them all in frequency sync and phase lock and power factor balanced is one heck of a problem… You can end up with current being high right when voltage goes low and with nodal points where two currents from different sources (a bit out of phase in either frequency or in current vs voltage phase) can cause wires to blow, transformers to arc, and breakers to trip.
BTW, keeping the reactance balanced so that voltage and current stay in phase is why we have those grey capacitor cans mounted on the power polls. Too much inductance, and you get voltage leading while current lags (inductive reactance) too much capacitance and you get a current surge while the voltage takes a while to come up. Resistance, like incandescent light bulbs, is neutral. Historically we had more motors than electronics and needed to add capacitance to the grid. With more electronics and the move to electronic ballast fluorescent bulbs, there is less of a need for capacitance. Keeping the grid balanced for this is much harder when you have a LOT of large rotating inductors (wind generators) popping on and off the system… add in a bunch of capacitance heavy inverters for solar and you jump back and forth from too much inductance to too much capacitance and that can cause lots of things to break…
Joletaxi: Please forgive me if I did not get your point across.

May 25, 2009 8:11 pm

To the person from Denmark who commented that Dash For Wind stated that there were 54 days in Denmark where wind output was 5 and 10 and 15 and 20% of demand
There were 3 days that did not meet 2% of demand.
What is significant here were the 86 days or a little less than 1 in 4 days that did not meet 10% of demand. Of course this did not account for season differences because I just averaged out the demand. But there is not too much air conditioning in Denmark, right? But here in the US, the demand could be 50% higher in the summer than other seasons. I would think that the 3 days would easily turn into 20 if I could compare wind output to real daily demand, in the summer. And this does not account for hourly demand/wind output differences, which are greater.
So it has to be ABSOLUTELY understood that we need 100% backup of wind, 100%. That is easy to do now while the traditional plants are in place. But I keep reading articles where traditional plants are being postponed on the back burner because of new wind plants. Wind can serve as a very expensive supplement to our grid, but never as an Alternative. It is Renewable only as far as the tax breaks, production tax credits, renewable obligations and whatever else they call them are in place. They would never be renewed without that, and they will never be competitive, because they will always be a duplication of traditional.
http://nofreewind.com/dash_for_wind.pdf
http://www.pjm.com/markets-and-operations/ops-analysis.aspx
http://nofreewind.blogspot.com/

May 25, 2009 8:35 pm

Joel Shore (19:38:49) :
“In fact, the way we can alter the level of water vapor in the atmosphere is by causing the temperature to change through changing the CO2 levels in the atmosphere, which does indeed increase the level of water vapor and causes additional warming (i.e., a positive feedback).”
Wasn’t there a post here about measured water vapor at various levels in the atmosphere a few weeks ago? Didn’t it show some increase at low levels and a decrease at higher levels in the troposphere and essentially no overall trend?
Why do you keep recycling garbage that isn’t borne out by real world measurements, Joel ? You are referring to assumptions made in modeling.

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 8:49 pm

I found this an interesting statement, given the context of this article. I’ve bolded the part that gave me pause. The “LFTR” they talk about is also know as the MSR. Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor and Molten Salt Reactor.
From:
http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/2009/04/lftr-short-and-simple-account.html
“Thorium is a very abundant mineral in the earth’s crust. The LFTR has a liquid fluoride salt core instead of the usual solid core. The liquid-salt type of reactor was developed by Oak Ridge National Laboratory between 1950 and 1976. The LFTR would use thorium-232 rather than uranium as a basis of its fuel cycle.”[…] “The LFTR is 200 to 300 times more fuel efficient than standard reactors. Given the abundance of Thorium and the efficiency of the LFTR, the combination offers abundant energy as long as people will want a massive energy source.”[…]” …” the LFTRs will be between $1 and $2 per watt of generating capacity. The LFTR will be cheap enough to produce mid-load and peak power, And unlike the conventional reactors the LFTR can do dynamic load balancing for the grid. Why heck, the LFTR can even provide electrical backup for solar and wind, but why anyone would be so crazy as to install solar and wind generating facilities if they had LFTRs is beyond comprehension.
Everyone seems to like grinding their own axe… Me? I don’t care if its nuclear or wind, I just want reliable electricity at a modest (and preferably dropping) price. Oh well…

Fluffy Clouds (Tim L)
May 25, 2009 9:05 pm

Climate Heretic (11:28:58) :
Roger Sowell
The reason the Construction and decommissioning costs are so high are because of the ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS compliance which costs huge amounts of extra capital.
This is correct! sowell IS THE REASON for the problem with litigation !!!!
Get IT?

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 9:14 pm

Just Want Truth… (19:38:50) :
The quote is from Rep. Waxman. Looks like he’s counting his chickens before they hatch.

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 9:26 pm

David L. Hagen (11:55:21) : However, show me how you run your vehicle on TAR or COAL?
Ok. See:
http://www.sasol.com/sasol_internet/frontend/navigation.jsp?navid=1600033&rootid=2
The “more >>> Processes” tab on the right is interesting too… They’ve been doing this since sometime in the ’70s or so IIRC… South Africa runs on the stuff. It makes the exotic fuels of Gasoline and Diesel …
The fuel needs to be extracted, then upgraded, then converted into syncrude – and then refined. Adding capacity costs $100,000 /bbl/day.
To replace 100 million bbl/day will “only” cost $10 trillion.

Um, not always… or even often… For tar sands, yeah, you extract it and crack it into a heavy crude so it can then go through a facility like VLO Valero has for heavy crude. No ‘syncrude’ step though. For coal there are ‘syncrude’ folks, but they don’t have an “extract, upgrade” step. I think you are mixing syncrude with tar sands processes… and leaving out FT based on synthesis gas.
Oh, and the Sasol FT system starts with just “burn the coal with little air and added water” to make “synthesis gas” or a mix of CO and H2. Again, no extract, upgrade, syncrude, etc. steps.
It is quite possible to make lots of tar sands, oil shale, coal syncrude, coal synthesis gas, etc. facilities in less than 5 years and for less than the trillions you speak of. It is being done today on a massive scale… in China.
Of course, if you want to do it in the U.S.A. or Europe… well, then you are hosed with regulation, union labor, legal costs, and price hikes, until you give up. But that’s OK. SSL Sasol and SYMX Synthesis Energy have projects in China. We can just buy our gasoline and Diesel from China. No Problem… Oh, and Saudi is expanding capacity in refining oil, so we don’t really need any refineries. AND a giant new facility just opened in India aimed at the export market. See, no capacity or lead time issues at all.
We can get all the gasoline and Diesel we ever want from India, Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, Venzuela; all our good friends. I’m sure they will give it to use for dollar bills and treasury bills. We are good and printing and we can / are printing Trillions of them. Making pretty pieces of paper is what we learn to do in our school arts programs and it’s clean and we can recycle them too… So what’s the problem? /sarcoff>

May 25, 2009 9:42 pm

Borgelt (16:24:20) :
“Thanks also to Roger Sowell for demonstrating to everybody again that lawyers are obtuse shaders of the truth who are prepared to argue that black is white and have the sheer gall to think that you believe them.”
Actually, Mr. Borgelt, you are correct that some lawyers argue that black is white, and some actually outright lie — it is their job. One example is a criminal defense attorney who knows his client is guilty but the client insists on pleading not guilty. Although some of my very good friend are criminal defense attorneys, my law practice is not in that category. If I ever lie then it very badly affects my business. Reputation is really all an attorney has to sell; so I guard mine very carefully.
However, I am unintentionally wrong at times, as we all are. So, I invite you to point out with particularity where you believe I am wrong. I am always willing to improve my knowledge. I ask that you please bring verifiable facts to the discussion, with the source for confirmation. A mere opinion based on hearsay is not sufficient.

May 25, 2009 9:50 pm

This article was written in 2004, yet posted in 2009. What crap! Nice cut n’ paste routine you’ve got for pumping up your numbers, pal, and by the way, “In 2005, Denmark had installed wind capacity of 3,129 MW, which produced 23,810 TJ of energy. Wind power provided 18.2% of the total gross electricity production.[1] In 2006, the installed capacity increased to 3,136 MW.[10]” (WIKI)
Also, this argument about wind’s intermittence being unreliable, what are you saying, wind might “go away”? Alternative energy is in addition to current oil/coal systems, of course there is a learning curve so to speak, in the development of these systems. Your title made me click: “Our Downfall”? That’s like posting, “Organic Food: The Death of Us All?” Get some vision, and stop pimping for Chevron.

May 25, 2009 9:54 pm

@Fluffy Clouds (Tim L) (21:05:43) :
@Climate Heretic (11:28:58) :
“Roger Sowell
The reason the Construction and decommissioning costs are so high are because of the ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS compliance which costs huge amounts of extra capital.
This is correct! sowell IS THE REASON for the problem with litigation !!!!
Get IT?”

Actually, fellows, I don’t practice in nuclear law and never have. Environmental regulations in general stem from the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act, and the hundreds passed since then.
Just so you know, have a look at the link below, and scroll down to Statutes and Regulations. These are laws passed by the government, for the regulation of nuclear systems, because in their sober and wise judgment, nuclear power from fission is too hazardous to be left to the discretion of the contractor, as I wrote earlier. Attorneys in this field generally are acting on behalf of various organizations to ensure those laws are complied with and not ignored. Based on actual lawsuits where evidence of non-compliance is produced, the attorneys are doing all of us a huge favor by bringing their lawsuits. The South Texas Nuclear Project is a good example.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref.html

Cap - Hood River
May 25, 2009 9:57 pm

In regard to solar, it has its own issues, including the insignificant aspects of a requirement that the sun actually be out ;]
In addition, the water requirements of solar are huge (cleaning), huge cost, and ineffecient cell technology.

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 10:07 pm

Dennis George (16:03:30) : A recombiner is set up and the hydrogen and carbon dioxide are recombined over nickel to produce methane which is then compressed and used as a motor fuel.
You can do this, but you could just as easily make synthesis gas (CO+H2) and run it into a FT conversion and get gasoline and Diesel usable in our present cars – no compression needed….
Another alternative would be to use the methane (or methanol, that is somewhat easier to get) and put it through a hot zeolite catalyst (since you have all that heat…) and make gasoline out of it.
Again, this avoids the “fleet change” issue…

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Oh, I should add to the Dennis George comment:
Really like the approach, BTW! Something very similar was proposed by VW in the late ’70s in response to the Arab Oil Embargo. They wanted to use process heat from a HTGCR to convert coal to methanol and run that in cars. They had a projected cost of about 75 cents / gallon of gas equivalent IIRC. Call it about $2 / gallon of gasoline equiv. in present money as a first guess.
I think they figured about 70% of the power in your fuel tank ends up coming from the nuke. I could look it up… The book was “Methanol and Other Ways Around the Gas Pump”.
They used the coal directly without running it though a power plant, but the reality would likely be that the easiest path is a bit of both. A “partial burn” that gives power along with CO (instead of CO2) out, then add a bit more carbon and some water along with a lot of nuclear process heat to get CO + 2H2 that is reacted to CH3OH then you do the zeolite thing…
But I digress… Bottom line is that this is a good idea and chemical process engineers do this kind of thing all the time. It isn’t hard, new, or particularly difficult. What’s hard is to get government and pressure groups out of the way to let industries make decisions based on engineering and economics rather than politics and fantasies.

rotation2
May 25, 2009 10:43 pm

Stephen Brown (10:03:33) :
The Law of Unintended Consequences, as applied to wind farms!
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6355764.ece
So air safety is being compromised to accommidate this wind power boondoggle. I understand the Whitehouse wants to idle Loran, which is a cost effective backup for GPS. No responsible government would go strictly with satellites. I guess next they’ll ask us to replace the runway lights with compact fluorescents.
Dave

a jones
May 25, 2009 11:00 pm

ATTN Douglas Taylor.
It seems you know your business sir.
I hope my post did not mislead anyone, I merely wished to make two points, that nuclear fission holds much promise and that we do not need it now: we have perfectly good fossil fuels.
And also to correct some rather odd ideas about fission and fusion power that float about here.
To further clarify what you and I said.
Any PWR tends to be very sensitive to load variation at low powers.
The RMBK reactor at Cherbonyl is largely graphite moderated and a plumbers nightmare. Because it also uses water moderation it is horribly unstable at low powers. This was well known to the Russians and they had various safety devices to curb the instability.
Why then the operators disconnected these safety devices and ran a test which their manual forbade them to do is a mystery. The rest is history.
By contrast as you correctly say the problem at Three Mile Island was that the top of the core came out of water: not least because there was no remotely controlled top vent valve.
In truth the operators did what they were trained to do, they did not know that the pumps and plumbing has been wrongly installed, nor had they either sensors to tell them what was wrong or even if they had they had no controls to rectify the problem.
It is easy to blame them: but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and even if the reactor was wrecked there was no significant release of radiation.
That is exactly what defence in depth means, every system may fail one after another until the last ditch but if that holds all is well.
Still the press likes the frisson of saying if the last ditch did not hold think of the catastrophe. But it did hold: and there was no catastrophe: except in the press of course.
No the point I was trying to make is simple. It is not that we do not have a practical and safe nuclear fission technology but that there are much better ones on the horizon.
And that we do not need to choose now, we have plenty of fossil fuels to be going on with.
Kindest Regards

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 11:02 pm

Mike Borgelt (16:24:20) : Thanks also to Roger Sowell for demonstrating to everybody again that lawyers are obtuse shaders of the truth who are prepared to argue that black is white and have the sheer gall to think that you believe them.
Mike, I think that remark was not appropriate. Please remember that Roger practices law in California. Given the pressures in this state against nuclear his comments about the costs to build a reactor are fairly accurate. He must recognize that reality. From all that I have seen, Roger has an engineers truth first. Lawyering comes second.
Yes, he is set against fission, but again, given the context of California, that is appropriate. Can you imagine the costs involved in getting approval to put a reactor on top of an earthquake fault near the coast in California? It would be impossible. BTW, there is nowhere in California that is not near a fault line…
Heck, you can’t even buy gas cans in California unless they have a ‘special’ low vapor nozzle. And every single paint, solvent, you name it must be ‘special’ California approved… (My mechanic can no longer get the spray that does clean parts that contains MethylMethylKetone or propan2-one he can only get the stuff that does not work with acetone in it.) So when Roger says it’s just too expensive, realize that it’s darned near too expensive just to rebuild a transmission here due to state laws. Imagine what that would do to a nuclear project…
Solvents that don’t clean. Paints that don’t cover or hold up. All of it “special” and all of it needing to be passed through a special nuclear approval process…
And don’t even think about trying to make anything out of lead in California. The local shooting range (outdoor) does not let you use lead shot for skeet anymore, since the state is trying to shut them down; and the local indoor range shut down since they could not meet the exhaust air filtration requirements (essentially perfection…). So expect to be making your nuclear facility with as close to zero lead as possible.
And the state wonders why anyone painting parts is leaving the state, and anyone doing soldering, and anyone doing casting, and anyone handling petroleum waste products (i.e. drain oil), and anyone working with lead, and anyone involved with any heavy metals, and anyone who needs working solvents and degreasers, and dry cleaners, and even bakers… (Yes, the local bread bakery – major industrial scale – got hit with a pollution notice for their “hydrocarbon pollution” … the ethanol the yeast made in raising the dough baking out of the bread). Yes, the smell of baking bread is officially an Evil Toxic Pollutant !!!
Beginning to get the picture? … Make a nuke with no toxic material and no air pollution. Not even from paint drying. And don’t dare think of baking bread…
So China can build a nuke fast and effectively, California can not. Roger is in California… it’s not about him, IMHO…

Cap - Hood River
May 25, 2009 11:21 pm

David Wells: “Just to finish, precisely why we feel we deserve to survive in anycase is beyond me, we do not have domain over this planet and maybe one of the most decent things we could do is to shut down Mcdonalds and then just maybe some of the Amazon would remain intact so even if we fail to survive maybe some life inherently more attractive and less destructive might.”
David, you’re a scary, scary man. It’s fascinating to me to think of where this mindset arises from. I’m astounded, to no end, how it thrives, and how much influence it has these days. I request of you (surely to be denied) that your diatribe be saved. Print it, tuck it away in your archives, and go back and read it 20 years hence. You may astound yourself with just how far down, and how warped you were back in the day.
Good day.
k

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 11:29 pm

Antenna Wilde (21:50:38) :
Antenna Wilde,
You were supposed to say Exxon not Chevron. Exxon has always been the petroleum company name of choice for attack comments. I’ve never heard of ChevronSecrets, etc.
I visited your blog. You are from San Francisco? I see your blogs is, for the most part, about left wing politics. And it is noticeably vulgar. But one thing I didn’t see in it—science.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 11:44 pm

Antenna Wilde (21:50:38) :
Antenna Wilde,
Why do those on your side of this issue always go to Wikipedia, grab a factoid, and then come come back to the debate and post the factoid like it is Gospel and will end all argument? Who really trusts Wiki that much? Global warming entries in Wikipedia have been altered by Green radicals, the leader being William Connolley. Wiki is not an encyclopedia. It’s global warming entries are all dubious—having gone trough literally 10,000’s of edit by people who are not unbiased. To use Wiki as a source gives an indication of where you are coming from.
Ref :
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/04/12/wikipedia-s-zealots-solomon.aspx
&
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/05/03/who-is-william-connolley-solomon.aspx

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 11:48 pm

Fluffy Clouds (Tim L) (21:05:43) : This is correct! sowell IS THE REASON for the problem with litigation !!!!
No, he is not. Our legislative idiots make the laws. The lawyers are just as often simply trying to keep you from being ground up by them.
I won’t go into what led me to appreciate the ‘good lawyers’… Let’s just say that the proper quote from the Bard is more of “First kill all of their lawyers”… i.e. disarm your opponent by keep your hired guns available!
So our legislature makes idiotic laws. Roger tries to keep his clients from the meat grinder. That does not mean he made the grinder!
Now, since most of the political morons who made this mess have law degrees, you would be correct to say that generically “lawyers” made the litigation problem; but it is wrong to personalize it to Roger. I’ve read his site. He like to design things and he wants to have things built… That is not a litigation happy obstructionist. It’s a frustrated engineer getting a law degree to keep from getting back a stump when he encounters The Legal Machine…

Philip_B
May 25, 2009 11:49 pm

From Wikipedia,
Sellafield’s biggest decommissioning challenges relate to the leftovers of the early nuclear research and nuclear weapons programmes.
Most of the rest of the decommissioning costs are from the world’s first commercial nuclear power station at the site.
It’s deceptive to cite Sellafield’s decommisiong costs as an example of what it costs to decommision nuclear power stations. The costs of more recent designs are much lower and of current designs lower still.
And as for disposing of nuclear waste. It can be buried in deep disused mines and sealed away, effectively for ever.
The only real issue is the Green fueled NIMBY objections, which are off the irrationality scale.
Otherwise good article and many interesting comments.

May 26, 2009 12:56 am

Roger Sowell:
Well this couple of drive-by shootings without any backup make the point for a start:
“Based on actual lawsuits where evidence of non-compliance is produced, the attorneys are doing all of us a huge favor by bringing their lawsuits. The South Texas Nuclear Project is a good example.”
“I wish I had time right now to respond properly, but I don’t. Basically, the French subsidize their nukes, and sell it because they must since nuclear power does not have good load-following capability. French nuclear power is one of the greatest cons of all time.”
Followed by this:
“My viewpoint is rather the opposite of Mr. Ellis’. I presently practice law in the fields of climate change, and energy, with an emphasis on renewable energy and energy storage. I also hold a BS in chemical engineering, with many years experience in fossil fuel industries.
I have three primary points in opposition: first, intermittent renewable power, standing alone, is not intended to replace fossil-fuel power. However, not all renewable power is intermittent. Second, quite a number of energy storage systems (ESS) exist and work quite well; their drawback is one of economics, not practicality. Third, the staggering costs of nuclear power should be fully exposed and understood before anyone or any country attempts to rely on that energy source.”
Evidently you are work for the rent seekers who aim to rip us all off with their tax subsidized renewable energy scams. Should be a nice little earner for you.
If you were any sort of engineer you would realize that engineering solutions are about economics not mere practicality. I think it is a Mark Twain quote
“an engineer is someone who can do for 50 cents what any damn fool can do for a dollar”.
Sure a lot of money has been spent on nuclear research. Much of it on weapons and production thereof. These are now sunk costs. Future nuclear power research can be funded from profits made from generating and selling power just as all sorts of energy companies fund research. Nobody objects to sensible engineering reviews of nuclear power plants. What isn’t needed is a regulatory process which allows every bunch of lunatic Luddites and their lawyer hangers-on on the planet to delay projects and increase their costs until they become uneconomic and fail.

mercurior
May 26, 2009 1:20 am

Wind farms ‘could pose danger to planes without new air traffic control radar system’ The development of new, larger wind farms could pose a danger to planes unless radar systems can be adapted to deal safely with them, air traffic controllers have warned.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/5383658/Wind-farms-could-pose-danger-to-planes-without-new-air-traffic-control-radar-system.html
Wind farms can create distortion on radar screens and as the number of farms has increased, so has the number of radar “blackout zones”, meaning that aircraft passing through the area can effectively disappear with air traffic controllers losing their exact position

allthequotes
May 26, 2009 1:40 am

This is the moment when we must come together to save this planet. Let us resolve that we will not leave our children a world where the oceans rise and famine spreads and terrible storms devastate our lands.
– Barack Obama
http://www.allthequotes.com/BarackObama.php

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