
This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.
For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony
Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis
The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.
So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.
Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.
However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.
The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.
This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.
But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.
Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.
Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.
While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.
But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.
This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:
a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.
b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.
c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.
The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?
In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.
Nuclear
But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.
In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.
What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.
While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)
Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.
And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.
However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.
We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!
Ralph Ellis
June 2004
1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.
2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.
Where did mr. Dernoga go? I want to hear his earthshaking arguments.
tl;dr
Yellow cake from sea water – an infinite resouce?
The French Nuclear generators use 12400 tonnes of Uranium oxide per year
=12.4*10^6 kg/year
1kg of yellow cake from (latest 2006 figures) 250kg of polymer per 240 days
=1.5kg/year from 250kg polymer
To satisfy the French will require (12.4/1.5)*10^6 *250 /1000 tonnes polymer
which is (if I haven’t slipped on the decimal) a rather unbelievable 2.1*10^6 tonnes of polymer.
sea water has 3*10^-3 gms uranium in 1 cu metre
so the polymer will need to see 12.4*10^9/(3*10^-3) cu metres of fresh sea water over the year. i.e. 4*10^12 cu metres.
The polymer will therfore have to be sunk into a deep water current
and
all 2 million tonnes dragged up from many meters down.
Hmmm!
“When” in this context is a construction we might term the ‘optimistic conditional’.
For a bill in the US Congress to become a law, it must be passed by both the Senate and the House of Representatives, and then signed by the President.
This awful bill can still be stopped, if enough Senators and Representatives refuse to vote for it. There are some Democrats from fossil-fuel-producing states who are not wildly enthusiastic about cap-and-trade. So there is yet hope. A flood of objections from constituents can make a huge difference.
/Mr Lynn
Those discussing French nuclear energy might also take into account the fact that the UK now imports 14% of its electricity from France
>>There is no comparison between the dangers of nuclear
>>proliferation and natural gas explosions. Coal fired plants
>>work just fine, particularly since they were cleaned up in
>>the 1960s.
Yes, there is ‘no comparison’, because coal and gas as an energy source kills far more people every year than nuclear power has in its entire history. Total deaths for fossil fuel power generation per annum must exceed 10,000 (6,000 in China coal alone).
And nuclear power? Apart from Chernobyl? A few dozen??
DaveF (05:14:57) :
http://stats.berr.gov.uk/energystats/dukes5_5.xls
GWh
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Total supply
(as given in Tables 5.1 and 5.2) 400,369 401,357 406,633r 406,341r 401,671
less imports of electricity -5,119 -9,784 -11,160 -10,282 -8,613
plus exports of electricity +2,959 +2,294 +2,839 +2,765 +3,398
less electricity used in pumped storage -3,546 -3,497 -3,707 -4,918 -5,071
less electricity used on works -18,136 -17,030 -17,871r -19,210r -18,087
equals
Electricity supplied (net) 376,527 373,340 376,734r 374,693r 373,298
Which if my maths is ok (8,613 – 3,398) / 401,671 = 1.3% imported
Also renewable data:
http://stats.berr.gov.uk/energystats/dukes7_4.xls
E.M.Smith (23:02:42) :
Solvents that don’t clean. Paints that don’t cover or hold up. All of it “special” and all of it needing to be passed through a special nuclear approval process…
So its ok for China to supply lead based paints on kids toys? And ok to use solvents that destroy the ozone layer?
perhaps some legislation that increases the cost of products is worthwhile?
Some points from my side.
The first problem you describe (big blackouts) is a grid problem not a gernation problem. If the US had an up to date grid the blackout wouldn’t be that big. But due to greed and profit maximization, nobody wants to invest in a system as long as it makes money. Beside that, thats why I’m against the idea of releasing critical systems to the market.
You can eleminate the problem of the big grid, by decentralized generation. Instead of 100 big plants across the US, you can set up 10000 smaler one, that are well distributed. If a part of the grid fails, the rest remains untouched.
A other point you mentioned are subsidies.
States have put in much more subsidies in nuklear power than they have done in green energy. In Europe, especialy in Germany where I come from, subsidies for coal are also a big problem. Subsidies are not a green energy thing.
Safety of nuklear plants is another point. Beside the all known Tschernobyl, there is another thing. First see the list of critical situation in NPPs. You will find them (with sources) at some of your not liked green sites.
Second, there is some evidence that the rate of child cancer in the near of NPP is significant higher than normal.
Would you like to life next a NPP?
Than you say, the raw material for NPPs is there for thousends of years. I heared some other voices, that say that this calculation is based on the current number of plants and even than it would be very optimistic.
I heared that the reserve only holds for 80-100 years. Wouldn’t be that sustainable.
Last one – Incontinuos power production:
1. Weather reports are able to predict windspead days before. We are not talking about a single turbine, but a network of turbines. If the wind is overall to low, there is enough time to power up one of the remaining big plants. BUT to du so, those plants must be agile enough. NPP are not agile. Gas plants are. So Gas plants are the perfect supplement to renewable plants.
2. If the demand is there, solutions for storing energy will be found. As long as nobody needs to store big amounts of power, nobody will come up with a solution (for a not existing problem).
If electric cars will realy come, they are maybe a solution for storing a lot of energy.
Next to renewable energy (solar energy+heat, wind, thermal (geo and air), tide, bio gas etc.) there is the possibility to raise efficency.
I.e. use process heat of big plants or factorys to heat or cool.
Sure, nuklear power is cheap. But if the power company had to pay a real price for the waste and to garanty for any accident with there own money (and not with the money of the state and so the people), the price would be higher.
Steven Goddard
Your ability to avoid the obvious is truly remarkable. What you have not [snip] is that irrespective of nuclear generation, nuclear weapons will exist anyway.
On a technical basis your argument is simply wrong. Clearly you have no understanding of the technology required to extract plutonium in fuel reprocessing or you would not be blithely assuming that terrorists will have access to it.
>>The air car — they envision perpetual motion…
It is not perpetual motion and it is not free either. I do so hate these Greens when they say energy is free – IT IS NOT FREE.
Wind energy is actually quite expensive, due to high infrastructure costs.
And this air-car needs a b***** great compressor to compress the air and give it energy. That compressor will run off electricity, which runs off coal, which pollutes the local countryside, and also costs a lot of money.
And the more times you change energy type and store it, the less efficient the use of that energy and the more expensive the vehicle. That is why it is still cheaper (and better for the environment) to run a diesel vehicle than an electric vehicle (and much cheaper again than a hydrogen vehicle).
>>If you burn H2 in cars, the exhaust output is not CO2 as
>>in regular fuels, but H20 – water.
But let’s not mention the huge amounts of CO2 and H2SO4 that were produced by the power station that produced the electricity that made the H2 in the first place.
Let’s include the whole cycle, shall we (and a remarkably inefficient cycle it is too…).
.
>>This article was written in 2004, yet posted in 2009. What crap!
>>Nice cut n’ paste routine you’ve got for pumping up your
>>numbers, pal,
This article WAS written in 2004, pal, and I have several colleagues who can verify that. Indeed, most of the UK media editors should be able to as well, as I sent it to enough of them. (But you will have to elucidate on ‘pumping numbers’, pal, we speak English here.)
.
>>Also, this argument about wind’s intermittence being
>>unreliable, what are you saying, wind might “go away”?
As it does many times a week, pal. I flew over 2,000 turbines a couple of days ago, and not one was turning. Strange as it may seem, but the wind had ‘gone away’, pal. On costal sites, the wind ‘goes away’ like clockwork, twice a day (check out ‘diurnal effects of wind’, pal).
.
>>That’s like posting, “Organic Food: The Death of Us All?”
>>Get some vision, and stop pimping for Chevron.
Sadly, you could be right there. I would guess that if we all indulged in organic farming, some 1.5 billion people would die of starvation. Seriously, organic crop yields are simply not great enough to feed the already overcrowded world we have, let alone the extra population that will arrive in the future. Organic farming is an indulgent, luxury product designed to massage the egos of the rich – who don’t give a damn where the rest of the world will get its food from.
And if you read my article properly, you would see that I was promoting nuclear power, not oil. The sooner we stop burning petrochemical feedstocks the better, in my opinion.
ralph ellis (06:09:37) :
Yes, there is ‘no comparison’, because coal and gas as an energy source kills far more people every year than nuclear power has in its entire history. Total deaths for fossil fuel power generation per annum must exceed 10,000 (6,000 in China coal alone).
And nuclear power? Apart from Chernobyl? A few dozen??
Nothing is 100% safe. If nuclear were safe:
1. there would be no accidents.
2. there would be no need for all that expensive scondary containment.
3. there would be no back-up systems. If 1 can fail then so can 2.
In siberia there are a few 10,000 people close enough to catch the nuclear fallout. And evacuating them to another location is “simple”.
In the UK tthings are a bit more crowded and you would have to evacuate millions ad a large % of the land would be uninhabitable. eg just one Chernobyl sized problem would do this.
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3077/oldbury30kmiz3.jpg
No-one say it will never happen. But there is 1 chance in 1 million years of it occurring. This does not mean no accidents for 1 million years. It means there might be one tomorrow but then there is unlikely to be one for a million years. ONE accident is UNACCEPTABLE in the UK at any time that carbon based lifeforms inhabit this island.
>>Global warming entries in Wikipedia have been altered
>>by Green radicals, the leader being William Connolley.
>>Wiki is not an encyclopedia.
Too true. I tried to add details (and problems) of wind intermittency on Wiki, but they were all systematically deleted. Eventually, the entire ‘wind’ section was ‘sealed’ due to ‘vandalism’. So adding the truth to Wiki entries is classed as vandalism.
A really reliable resource, obviously.
Roger Sowell (13:09:25) :
anna v,
I wish I had time right now to respond properly, but I don’t. Basically, the French subsidize their nukes, and sell it because they must since nuclear power does not have good load-following capability. French nuclear power is one of the greatest cons of all time.
Pity you could not append a link to your “greatest cons of all time”. They do live in an electricity powered civilization from all I know, so it matters not if it is subsidized energy if they can afford it .
>>ONE (nuclear) accident is UNACCEPTABLE in the UK at any time
>>that carbon based lifeforms inhabit this island.
If you have that philosophy, you may as well never leave your bed. Vehicles in the UK kill 3,000 people a year. Are they banned? Could we do without vehicles?
If we are to survive and prosper as a nation and a species, we need to balance gain and risk, and clearly the benefits of nuclear power outweigh the risks.
Besides, what is wind power derived from? Nuclear energy! Now you might think the Sun to be warm and friendly, but if it ever decided to throw out one of those CMEs in our direction, we might all fry. Are we to ban the Sun too?
.
There’s a nice graphic on Andy Revkins dot earth blog of the total energy research budgets of the member governments of the International Energy Agency. It displays the subsidy argument in its true perspective.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/07/15/business/0716-nat-sub-webSOLAR1.jpg
Nuclear has received and still receives much more than it’s fair share. Even fossil fuels – ie established technology – still receive more than the puny amounts allocated to solar, wind and geothermal. It’s no wonder there are so many advocates for nuclear energy and so much basic disinformation abounding – there are a lot of fingers in the pie. And those costs do not even account for decommissioning – it’s just research.
It is a well known fact that the absurdity of the nuclear authorities in France and the UK being responsible for renewable research too meant they had free rein to overstate the costs of wind, solar and wave energy while burying the costs of nuclear by similar creative accounting. This nuclear funding bias was initially exposed in the UK during the “Salter nodding duck” case and again when the UK reactors were privatised because nobody actually wanted to buy them after seeing the true costs of nuclear. The only reason the French want them now is because the decommissioning and most of the new-build costs are underwritten by the UK government. So the British taxpayers will be subsidising French industry and the French will finally get some return on their nuclear investments.
Stop the nuclear greenwashing you lot! Yes, nuclear has it’s place but it still has lot’s of problems and those new designs are still largely untested so any claims made for them are mere speculation. We old hands in the energy business know how nuclear speculation goes – always wildly inaccurate. But it’s not a case of either/or and we needn’t argue that it is. It is quite simply sensible to spend the money on renewable research just as it is sensible to spend money on thorium reactors and on nuclear fusion. But meantime, as far as I can see, natural gas and coal gasification has all the others beaten hands down.
Someday we may be able to use wind or solar power to generate hydrogen (or other fuel) economically and thus store energy for when it’s needed.
When that someday arrives, that’s when we should start building wind farms and solar generating stations. Until then, we need to keep up the R & D in various energy solutions while building new, conventional power plants to meet our energy needs.
When we build new, conventional plants, we can actually decommission older, dirtier, inefficient power plants. Without new, conventional plants, we will have to keep those old, dirty plants in operation.
@ur momisugly Antenna Wilde (21:50:38) :
Are you in the employ of T. Boone Pickens? How much do you have invested in GE? Who pays you to post these things?
Whenever somebody states or implies that people who don’t agree with their visions of the green future are in the pay of big oil, I know they are not serious people and should be ignored.
Mike Borgelt:
That was from radiosonde data that has known severe issues with it. By contrast the data from satellites shows that the upper troposphere is moistening as expected. See, for example, here: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;310/5749/841 (There are also other studies by Dessler and co-authors.) The satellite data is much more believable because as Fig 2 of the Soden et al paper demonstrates, the assumption that such a feedback is occurring results in much better agreement not only with the overall long-term trends in the data but also with the fluctuations on roughly yearly timescales.
Reprints of Dessler’s papers on the water vapor feedback that I referred to are available here: http://atmo.tamu.edu/profile/sub/239 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;310/5749/841 with the 2009 Science paper providing a good overview.
ralph ellis (07:30:19) :
Vehicles in the UK kill 3,000 people a year. Are they banned? Could we do without vehicles?
A car crash affects physically only those involved. There is no long lasting physical affect to bystanders and land.
A plane crash on London would wipe out more “people” but at least those that survive can pick up their lives in the same location afterwards and would not be subject to genetic diseases. An accident at oldbury npp would kill as many AND effectively kill the land for centuries to come, and leave others to suffer the affects of genetic damage.
Now you might think the Sun to be warm and friendly, but if it ever decided to throw out one of those CMEs in our direction, we might all fry.
Oh come on! Ridiculous! But then don’t you already protect your eyes and skin against its harmful effects? Not so friendly then.
JamesG,
Nuclear power is the only energy that the government should have anything to do with because no other form of power generation holds as much potential to destroy. I do not believe that even dyed in the woool libertarians such as myself want every individual on the face of the Earth to get hold of enriched uranium or nuclear waste. Wind, coal, geo-thermal, solar or what-else have you does not have anywhere never the potential to be so destructive as atomic energy. This does not mean that these energy alternatives are better, just that they do not require an atomic physicist to over see their operations. Also you have a huge amount of capital that must go into the construction of an atomic energy plant where most of the costs are up front and construction delays greatly increase the costs due to interest expense.
The government should not be spending a dime subsidizing anything except nuclear energy. Also you are a liar about the amount of subsidies that nuclear energy actually recieves because you are including the insurance trust that the nuclear power generators pay for without discounting their payment into the system.
Nuclear could be cheaper than coal if the plant design was more standardized and the government would cover interest expenses during the construction phase reducing the need to issue bonds to cover interest expense. This would ultimately benefit everyone concerned because it would provide good high paying jobs, make nuclear power more attractive to Wall Street while reducing cost to ratepayers.
Nuclear is not the perfect solution, but it is a great way to provide a base load at the lowest possible cost with the least environmental affect. As I understand it, the most serious problem with nuclear energy is that it is not very good modulating its load to scale with demand. I do not see any alternative energy source being able to produce energy on demand at all, so perhaps the best thing to do would be to over build nuclear and find a use for its extra wattage during off-peak hours or retain coal fired power stations to modulate the load. With all the brilliant engineers that we have it should not be that great of a challenge if we discover the political will to live an abundant life.
AnonyMoose (08:01:46) :
Renewable energy is fine, as long as only discretionary funds are being spent on it. The problems arise when money needed for essential services is diverted to wasteful spending. It’s OK to use entertainment money for gambling, but not OK to use mortgage money for gambling. And not OK to send the tax men out with guns to collect more money to replace what has been wasted.
Another problem is that as soon as government picks the winners and losers, then real innovation is hampered, if not eliminated altogether.