Renewable energy – our downfall?

This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.

For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government  subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony

Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis

The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.

So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.

Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.

However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.

The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.

This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.

But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.

Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.

Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.

While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.

But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.

This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:

a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.

b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.

c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.

The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?

In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.

Nuclear

But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.

In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.

What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.

While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)

Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.

And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.

However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.

We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!

Ralph Ellis

June 2004

1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.

2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.

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382 Comments
slowtofollow
May 25, 2009 4:23 pm

Dennis George (16:03:30) :
“Admittedly the carbon dioxide eventually will end up in the atmosphere but it may be easier to capture it at the tail pipe rather than the chimney.”
Isn’t a static chimney an easier proposition than a mobile tailpipe?

May 25, 2009 4:24 pm

Thanks Ralph Ellis, I think you got it right 5 years ago. Except in very special niche circumstances all these alternative energy sources are toys. Nice for a few people to fiddle with as a hobby.
Our technological civilization has lost confidence in itself and is committing suicide slowly.
We seem to be doomed to a future of energy poverty while there is abundant energy in the nucleus which we actually know how to extract.
Thanks also to Roger Sowell for demonstrating to everybody again that lawyers are obtuse shaders of the truth who are prepared to argue that black is white and have the sheer gall to think that you believe them.

JamesG
May 25, 2009 4:28 pm

“For the Record I advocate all subsidies to be withdrawn on all energy sources and have the best one win,… it is a radical right wing free-market concept that may be very foreign to some readers.”
And like all radical right wing free-market concepts it’s totally bloody stupid! Dogmatic ideology isn’t any kind of substitute for common sense.

a jones
May 25, 2009 4:33 pm

Nuclear plant of the PWR type are automatically load following because increased demand at the heat exchanger causes the temperature of the outflow to fall so cooler recirculated water enters the reactor. The water acts as a moderator and since cooler water is more dense the reaction rate increases to compensate without any other adjustment.
Although this quite desirable it can also lead to difficulties particularly at low loads such as ‘cold slug’: which is exactly what happened at Chernobyl. When the degree of moderation changes the response is not linear, it tends to surge upwards and then drop back and if the surge is too great the core goes supercritical. We usually model this response using Fourier transforms.
This is why it is dangerous to allow a nuclear reactor’s reaction rate to increase too quickly, for example it is standard practice for the control rods to be wound out by electric motors and a worm gear to retract the rods very slowly, a lesson learned from the SL 1 Disaster. The rods are held by a magnetic linkage so if the reactor overheats the temperature exeeds the Curie point and the magnetic adhesion fails causing the rods to drop in by gravity.
Likewise if the reator is ‘scrammed’ the magnetic field which is generated by electromagnets, is turned off so the rods drop back in immediately, which then leaves the problem of cooling the core without using excessively cold water. Essentially it is this system which failed at Three Mile Island due to incorrect installationof the pumps and the plumbing. There was a partial core meltdown but NO significant release of radiation.
PWR designs have hardly changed in nearly fifty years and although well proven are not ideal, they produce small amounts of plutonium etc and do require complex safety and control systems.
There are other better possibilities, one is steam moderation of the reaction, because unlike a gas cooled reactor using CO2 or Helium the steam acts a moderator and controlling its temperature and pressure not only allows output to be fine tuned but also allows it to burn a wide range of fuel. Such reactors hold out the prospect of making much better use of the fissile feedstock by burning up almost all of it so there is no significant disposal problem. And they are intrinsically safe, to shut down reaction and cool the ore it is only necessary to reduce the steam pressure and if needed bleed in inert gas to the steam circuit.
This sort of technique possibly combined with a pebble bed system offers the prospet of relatively cheap, safe small scale reactors with no significant radioactive waste. The technology exists now which is not to say that it will not take ten to twenty years to go over to it on any significant scale: such plant has not been tested in commercial use. And only governments can order such plant. So don’t hold your breath.
Which is why I personally do not think we should consider using PWRs in the UK on a large scale just yet, lets see what the new designs have to offer. Coal and gas can fill the gap perfectly well for the moment: not least because gas combined cycle plant is very cheap and quick to build if wanted. And as I saids in another post we already have the LNG terminals and there is plenty of LNG tanker capacity laid up. It is just a matter of agreeing long term contracts.
And damn the CO2
Kindest Regards

bill
May 25, 2009 4:38 pm

In 2007 from UK gov statisics:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8598/totaluseofrenewables.jpg
5.2Mtonnes of oil saved
Not much but a start.
This is ACTUAL oil equivalent saved based on ACTUAL energy produced byy renewables.

bill
May 25, 2009 4:41 pm
Kum Dollison
May 25, 2009 4:49 pm

Dennis George,
Why don’t we just let the CO2 escape the tailpipe and provide fertilizer for the soybeans, and cotton. That way our people will be Warm, Well Fed, AND Well-clothed.

RoyFOMR
May 25, 2009 5:12 pm

When did it happen that alternative-energy calculations eschewed simple sums, because arithmetic doesn’t take into account moral, humanistic decisions?
(A) .. Anything is better than we’ve got – ‘cos we is bad
Is it really true that wish-science now trumps reality for the same reason?
(A) .. Yup wish-science is about the power of the mind to imagine- much easier than to wade thro’ arcane and tricky science
Have Climate-Censors really redefined arithmetical-axioms as meaningful only in carbon-contextual projections when underpinned by environmentally-‘sound’ principles?
(A) .. Ask the (Wax)Mann
Steve has got it spot on. There’s loads of energy – and accessible at that – but the illiterate witch-hunters keep chanting the ‘peer-reviewed’, ‘us is bad’ mantras!!!

May 25, 2009 5:29 pm

I would like to add another source of renewable energy is Methane gas. It can be harnessed anywhere from sewage system from your home, community, garbage site, or even hog farms. Check out an article on this.

May 25, 2009 5:31 pm

bill (16:38:03) :5.2Mtonnes of oil saved
Yeah right. Does that include the oil burned in manufacture, transport and maintenance of the “renewable” generators? I’ll bet not and anyway is anyone still burning much oil in electricity generation in the UK? If not it doesn’t make much sense to quote oil equivalents saved.
In any case I’d include hydro in traditional energy sources like coal, oil and nuclear. It works and produces energy relatively cheaply. The rest are toys.

May 25, 2009 5:36 pm

JamesG (16:28:58) :
“For the Record I advocate all subsidies to be withdrawn on all energy sources and have the best one win,… it is a radical right wing free-market concept that may be very foreign to some readers.”
And like all radical right wing free-market concepts it’s totally bloody stupid! Dogmatic ideology isn’t any kind of substitute for common sense.
———————————–
Nice knee-jerk dismissal, are you perhaps going to perhaps back that up with some concrete evidence that central energy planning has worked so far?
What is stupid is pinning the production capacity and competiveness of Western Countries in the Global Community on a set of woefully inadequate technologies, none that are new, have ever been successful and without a radical reshaping of energy storage will ever be viable for anything other than photos for green media consumption.
What is stupid is pouring billions of dollars into an industry to subsidize energy production, basically making an industry that would not exist except by the graces of the taxpayers, and one that does not contribute in any meaningful way to overall energy needs, a reliance that will only serve to burden the economy further as installed capacity grows.
What is stupid is abandoning some very simply economic “common sense” truths in regards to markets and market forces, if you build a better product at a price that people will pay you will win. If you build a crappy product at a price people are not willing to pay you will lose. If you can argue that I would really like to hear it.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 5:49 pm

The air car—they envision perpetual motion—so let’s pack it all up and go home folks!! Job done! No more need to drill, drill, drill in Alaska. LOL

REPLY: Actually, your criticism is misplaced. This concept works pretty well. The only problem is air recharging stations, the PSI needed can’t be gotten froma tire pump at a gas station. – Anthony

May 25, 2009 5:53 pm

I’m pretty sure renewable energy is a good idea, but don’t take it from me, take it from this eight year old…
http://greenermilwaukee.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/kids-korner-learning-about-renewable-energy/

Matt Dernoga
May 25, 2009 6:32 pm

this essay just shows how loony many of the readers here are. The arguments were very primitive and outdated. Even though you’re wrong, I could make a better argument against renewables if I felt like it.
REPLY: then do it or shut the hell up, I don’t appreciate you calling WUWT readers “loony”. You claim you can do a better job of making the argument while insulting all the readers of this blog, so put your money where your mouth is. I’ll even give you a guest post status.
I’m going to board a plane, so I won’t be able to be responding for at least 24 hours. Moderators, please make certain any replies are within blog policy. – Anthony

DoctorJJ
May 25, 2009 6:42 pm

E.M. Smith,
Thank you for pointing out the “peak oil” fear mongering that the original post implied. Like this gem,
“Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist.”
I mean, come on, peak oil is so tired. Other than the obvious peak oil hype contained in the original post, I agree with the general sentiment of the article. Renewables are not a panacea. They aren’t free. And they may or may not be the immediate solution. But to completely dismiss them is simply demonstrating ignorance to the supporting role they can and will play in energy production in the next few years.

chris y
May 25, 2009 7:01 pm

Roger Sowell posted a link to the California Energy information website. Lots of interesting reading about how much electricity costs in CA.
For example, here are some levelized costs of electricity produced by various merchant sources in 2007 in CA-
Gas- 10 cents/kWhr
Nuclear- 12 cents/kWhr
Biomass- 5.5 – 13.5 cents/kWhr
Geothermal- 5.5 cents/kWhr
Hydro- 5.2 cents/kWhr
Wave- 103 cents/kWhr
Solar- concentrating PV- 42 cents/kWhr
Solar thermal- parabolic trough- 27.7 cents/kWhr
Solar PV, single axis steer- 70.5 cents/kWhr
Solar- stirling dish concentrator- 52 cents/kWhr
Wind (Class 5)- 8.4 cents/kWhr
Summary-
Solar (PV, thermal, stirling) is still very expensive, even in sunny CA.
Geothermal looks pretty competitive in CA.
Class 5 wind looks pretty competitive in CA, but Class 5 sites onshore in CA are pretty rare, according to:
http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps_none.asp
Don’t forget to add the cost of spinning reserves or storage to the wind cost.
Coal is not even listed.
Surprisingly, nuclear is cost competitive in CA. Who would have believed that!

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 7:03 pm

REPLY: Actually, your criticism is misplaced. This concept works pretty well. The only problem is air recharging stations, the PSI needed can’t be gotten froma tire pump at a gas station. – Anthony
I was aiming at the perpetual motion notion–Gene

Mr Lynn
May 25, 2009 7:09 pm

Just Want Truth… (15:29:10) :
It’s not just a topic for debate anymore–it is now law in the United States. On 5/21/09 the Waxman-Markey Bill, i.e., H.R. 2454, “The American Clean Energy and Security Act,” passed in to law by a vote of 33 to 25. It is law now :”This bill, when enacted into law this year… With this plan, we will shape a new energy destiny for our country,… “.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1630:energy-and-commerce-committee-passes-comprehensive-clean-energy-legislation&catid=122:media-advisories&Itemid=55
The 932 page law on PDF :
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090515/hr2454.pdf
They are saying it will save people money. How?

No, it’s not law yet. It just passed a Senate committee vote. Then the full Senate has to vote on it. Also, the House of Representatives has to consider and vote on a similar bill, which presumably they will, as Madam Pelosi is keen on preventing ‘climate change’.
Once the House and Senate have passed similar legislation, the bills have to go to a Conference Committee for reconciliation. After that, they go back to their respective bodies for another vote in each chamber.
Then the final bill has to go to the President for signature. Only after all this does it become law.
So there is still time to write your Senators and Representatives, and urge them to vote against this abomination.
/Mr Lynn

Douglas Taylor
May 25, 2009 7:13 pm

Clarification, and comments about the posting of A. Jones
The accidents at both SL1, and Chernobyl were due to the fact that both reactors went supercritical or prompt critical(supercritcal or prompt critical is a matter of debate). When a reactor goes supercritical, or prompt critical the nuclear fission is not controlled, or stopped and the power level increases by orders of magnitude in a very short period of time (of the order of a second), until the reactor comes apart(SL1), or the active safety systems(neutron poison) are destroyed. This was not the case at the accident at TMI which was due to the loss of coolant to the reactor core. At TMI(a PWR) the reactor was tripped due to the loss of a heat sink. Tripping means that the control rods drop into the reactor core and or more boron is added to the coolant. The nuclear reaction(fissioning) is stopped. The core must still be cooled due to the fact of the decay heat from the fission products. What happened at TMI is that the PORV(Pilot or Pressure Operated Relief Valve) on top of the pressurizer(contols the pressure of the primary system) stuck in the open position. The opening of the pressurizer is automatic, i.e. when the pressure of the primary coolant increases above safety limits, the valve opens, and when the pressure returns to normal, the valve closes. In this case the valve did not close. There was only an indirect way for the operaters to know that the pressurizer valve was closed. This indirect way was flawed, and the reactor operators believed the system was going solid (during normal operation, the pressurized is half full of water, and half full of steam). A solid system could cause a large break in the primary system. As a consequence, the operators turned off the Emergency Core Cooling System, and after about an hour and a half into the accident, the core was slowly becoming uncovered. If the reactor operators, had left the system alone after the initial trip, there would not have been a TMI accident.
SL1 was an Army reactor which was to be used for combined heat and power for polar regions. It was rated at about 3 megawatts. I believe it was graphite moderated. It had only one manually operated control rod, which controlled the nuclear reaction. According to the accident reconstruction scenarios, this single control rod was jerked out of the reactor for any number of reasons (suicide, control rod being stuck, and then unstuck, a other operators “goosing” the control rod technition, etc). In any event the reactor went supercritical, and it came apart. Two of the technicians were killed within the first half hour of the accident (one was impaled on the ceiling of the reactor vessel by the control rod), and the third lived for about 5 hours.
Chernobyl was mostly a graphite moderated reactor, with very limited moderation from coolant water. Western based reactors are water moderated either light water, or heavy water (Candu). The reason for water moderation is that they are intrinsicaly(passively) safe with regards to nuclear fission, i.e. if the reactor overheats the nuclear reaction(fissioning) stops. But they are not intrinsically(passively) safe because of the heat generated from fission products within the reactor rods. Chernobyl had to be actively managed to prevent a runaway fissioning process. Apparently, at very low power levels, during the testing program, the reactivity went sufficiently positive, such that the reactor period was shortentened dramatically, and the reactor went super critical or prompt critical. This type of accident could not happen with western water cooled reactors.

May 25, 2009 7:13 pm

So we have a win win situation
We have supplied power to the grid.
We have desalinated water.
We have generated pure hydrogen for fuel cells.
We have generated methane for vehicular use.
We have reused the carbon dioxide from the CFPS
Admittedly the carbon dioxide eventually will end up in the atmosphere but it may be easier to capture it at the tail pipe rather than the chimney.
Dennis F M George

You are arbitrarily assuming that there will a market for:
hydrogen for fuel cells (very, very hard to store, expensive to compress, very expensive piping and tanks – and high energy demand to cryogenically store or high pressure store, can’t pump or send cross-country.)
Reused Carbon/stored CO2 … Why? Both are a waste of chemical energy, steel, eqpt, pumps and piping and power for no value added. Vent the CO2 as fertilizer.
Methane? Not needed now for cars. Don’t spend money and energy and material and manpower reating something not needed. For natural gas for power plants? More is available far cheaper from natural sources.
Desalization is NOT needed in most areas (95-99%) of the world. Don’t do it if it is not needed. Spend the money on sewage plants, pumps, tanks and fresh water piping for the dirty – BUT FRESH – water already available.
Generate power the most economical ways possible in each different location.
Unlke the writer above who cursed free enterprise: Common sense market forces – not corrupted by governments and socialists – will create the profitable and correct solution. Corrupt governments, on the other hand, will only create more government.

Mr Lynn
May 25, 2009 7:13 pm

Oops! I got it backwards. This is an House bill that passed (‘H.R.’), so the Senate has to pass theirs, then Reconciliation, etc.
Of course my Representative in Congress, the Hon. Ed Malarky, is working cheek by jowl with the execrable Sen. Waxman, so the two bills will be essentially the same. Still, there is time to make your voices heard. Use paper and an envelope, not just e-mail; it makes a larger impression.
/Mr Lynn

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 25, 2009 7:25 pm

John Egan (06:26:05) : There’s even LESS extractable uranium than oil.
You may have overlooked the spike in yellowcake prices before the bust. Part was due to speculation, but another part was due to the limited amount of uranium that is easily mined. Seawater extraction talk is like fusion talk – hype and hope, but not much reality.

Prices spike in the short term for a variety of non-resource reasons. Mostly it has to do with the fact that mine expansion is a ‘several year’ process and markets move in “this month” movements. Prices can NOT be used to judge resources extent. Ever. For anything.
Sea water extraction is very real. Proven. It works. It costs a tiny bit more than land sources, so it is not done in quantity; yet. That does not say anything about the technical ability to do it, nor about the rate at which that extraction can be expanded. See:
http://www.taka.jaea.go.jp/eimr_div/j637/theme3%20sea_e.html
Where you will find:
” The total amount of uranium recovered by the experimental marine-equipment was 1kg in terms of yellow cake during a total submersion time of 240 days in the ocean. ” […] ” The total mass of the nonwoven fabric used in the experimental marine-equipment was 350 kg in the dry state and the size of equipment except for anchors was 8 x 8 x 30 m (length x width x height). ”
I’d say that extracting a kq of yellowcake from a 350 kg blanket per year is sufficient proof that it can be done. We can clearly make plastics in sufficient quantity to extract several thousand tons of yellowcake equivalent, should we ever wish to do it. (The plastic being recyclable…)
Recoverable U is about 1000 times the total known land quantity, which is itself far more than we could need in less than thousands of years. That we can mine yellowcake more cheaply in Australia DOES NOT make the Japanese sea water extraction unavailable! (Just not cheaper than dirt.)
See: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf75.html
for a pretty good exposition on total U we can recover fairly cheaply.
Notice that fairly often the comment is made that some source or other was shut down for economic reasons. That is what happens when price drops to $40 / lb. Then price spikes to $100+ and we “discover more”. Then price drops from the glut and “reserves fall”…. NONE of this has to do with quantity we can recover and use at “reasonable” costs (ultimate resource). That stays a gigantic number. ALL of it has to do with what is the lowest cost provider RIGHT NOW (economic reserves). Basically, it’s a description of market dynamics; NOT a description of usable resources.
There is no energy shortage and there never will be. There is only a shortage of imagination and the will to use it.

Joel Shore
May 25, 2009 7:30 pm

REPLY: Actually, your criticism is misplaced. This concept works pretty well. The only problem is air recharging stations, the PSI needed can’t be gotten from a tire pump at a gas station. – Anthony

Anthony, I have to agree with “Just Want Truth…” though that the info-mercial that he linked to about the AirCar is way over the top and poor scientifically, particularly when it proposes the perpetual motion idea at the end…That’s just nuts! As you say, the idea itself, like the idea of using hydrogen, is not a bad one…and it could potentially give us much more flexibility in how we generate the energy to power our vehicles by serving as a convenient energy carrier, but to suggest it is some sort of free source of energy and that we could somehow generate the compressed air using the car itself is over-the-top and in violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 7:33 pm

If their air turbine could work on perpetual motion then all energy problems are solved.
“…A car that runs on air and constantly refuels itself….. A no cost fill up ever. Not one iota of pollutants ever.”
This turbine that turns car wheels could also turn a turbine to produce electricity—couldn’t it? Then that would be free electricity. So we could all pack up and head home. 😉
I should have specified this is what my jest was aimed at. Unspecified jesting. My bad.

Joel Shore
May 25, 2009 7:38 pm

GK says:

I would like to add – regarding the “hydrogen economy”
If you burn H2 in cars, the exhaust output is not CO2 as in regular fuels, but H20 – water. That might make your average greenie moron swoon with delight, except that they dont realise that H20 is many many many times stronger a greenhouse gas than C02. If you believe in AGW, then the WORST thing you can put into the atmosphere is water vapor, and that is exactly what Hydrogen fuel will do.

There are two big fallacies in this. The first is a fallacy of omission: Yes, water vapor is produced when you burn H2 but it is also produced when you burn fossil fuels.
The second is the fallacy of equating emissions to levels of the greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. The problem with CO2 is that it is long-lived in the atmosphere so that human emissions can significantly change its concentration in the atmosphere. By contrast, water vapor is not and in fact its concentration in the atmosphere is essentially controlled by the temperature. So, such emissions, at least on anything like the current scales of energy use, would not significantly affect the concentration of water vapor in the atmosphere.
In fact, the way we can alter the level of water vapor in the atmosphere is by causing the temperature to change through changing the CO2 levels in the atmosphere, which does indeed increase the level of water vapor and causes additional warming (i.e., a positive feedback).

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