I found this article well researched and clearly written, so I thought I’d repost it here for all to enjoy. Warren Meyers was one of the first volunteers for the surfacestations.org project and we share blog content semi-regularly. This is a rebuttal to Joe Romm’s (of Climate Progress) claim of a 15°F AGW induced temperature rise by 2100. – Anthony
For several years, there was an absolute spate of lawsuits charging sudden acceleration of a motor vehicle — you probably saw such a story: Some person claims they hardly touched the accelerator and the car leaped ahead at enormous speed and crashed into the house or the dog or telephone pole or whatever. Many folks have been skeptical that cars were really subject to such positive feedback effects where small taps on the accelerator led to enormous speeds, particularly when almost all the plaintiffs in these cases turned out to be over 70 years old. It seemed that a rational society might consider other causes than unexplained positive feedback, but there was too much money on the line to do so.
Many of you know that I consider questions around positive feedback in the climate system to be the key issue in global warming, the one that separates a nuisance from a catastrophe. Is the Earth’s climate similar to most other complex, long-term stable natural systems in that it is dominated by negative feedback effects that tend to damp perturbations? Or is the Earth’s climate an exception to most other physical processes, is it in fact dominated by positive feedback effects that, like the sudden acceleration in grandma’s car, apparently rockets the car forward into the house with only the lightest tap of the accelerator?
I don’t really have any new data today on feedback, but I do have a new climate forecast from a leading alarmist that highlights the importance of the feedback question.
Dr. Joseph Romm of Climate Progress wrote the other day that he believes the mean temperature increase in the “consensus view” is around 15F from pre-industrial times to the year 2100. Mr. Romm is mainly writing, if I read him right, to say that critics are misreading what the consensus forecast is. Far be it for me to referee among the alarmists (though 15F is substantially higher than the IPCC report “consensus”). So I will take him at his word that 15F increase with a CO2 concentration of 860ppm is a good mean alarmist forecast for 2100.
I want to deconstruct the implications of this forecast a bit.
For simplicity, we often talk about temperature changes that result from a doubling in Co2 concentrations. The reason we do it this way is because the relationship between CO2 concentrations and temperature increases is not linear but logarithmic. Put simply, the temperature change from a CO2 concentration increase from 200 to 300ppm is different (in fact, larger) than the temperature change we might expect from a concentration increase of 600 to 700 ppm. But the temperature change from 200 to 400 ppm is about the same as the temperature change from 400 to 800 ppm, because each represents a doubling. This is utterly uncontroversial.
If we take the pre-industrial Co2 level as about 270ppm, the current CO2 level as 385ppm, and the 2100 Co2 level as 860 ppm, this means that we are about 43% through a first doubling of Co2 since pre-industrial times, and by 2100 we will have seen a full doubling (to 540ppm) plus about 60% of the way to a second doubling. For simplicity, then, we can say Romm expects 1.6 doublings of Co2 by 2100 as compared to pre-industrial times.
So, how much temperature increase should we see with a doubling of CO2? One might think this to be an incredibly controversial figure at the heart of the whole matter. But not totally. We can break the problem of temperature sensitivity to Co2 levels into two pieces – the expected first order impact, ahead of feedbacks, and then the result after second order effects and feedbacks.
What do we mean by first and second order effects? Well, imagine a golf ball in the bottom of a bowl. If we tap the ball, the first order effect is that it will head off at a constant velocity in the direction we tapped it. The second order effects are the gravity and friction and the shape of the bowl, which will cause the ball to reverse directions, roll back through the middle, etc., causing it to oscillate around until it eventually loses speed to friction and settles to rest approximately back in the middle of the bowl where it started.
It turns out the the first order effects of CO2 on world temperatures are relatively uncontroversial. The IPCC estimated that, before feedbacks, a doubling of CO2 would increase global temperatures by about 1.2C (2.2F).
Alarmists and skeptics alike generally (but not universally) accept this number or one relatively close to it.
Applied to our increase from 270ppm pre-industrial to 860 ppm in 2100, which we said was about 1.6 doublings, this would imply a first order temperature increase of 3.5F from pre-industrial times to 2100 (actually, it would be a tad more than this, as I am interpolating a logarithmic function linearly, but it has no significant impact on our conclusions, and might increase the 3.5F estimate by a few tenths.) Again, recognize that this math and this outcome are fairly uncontroversial.
So the question is, how do we get from 3.5F to 15F? The answer, of course, is the second order effects or feedbacks. And this, just so we are all clear, IS controversial.
A quick primer on feedback. We talk of it being a secondary effect, but in fact it is a recursive process, such that there is a secondary, and a tertiary, etc. effects.
Lets imagine that there is a positive feedback that in the secondary effect increases an initial disturbance by 50%. This means that a force F now becomes F + 50%F. But the feedback also operates on the additional 50%F, such that the force is F+50%F+50%*50%F…. Etc, etc. in an infinite series. Fortunately, this series can be reduced such that the toal Gain =1/(1-f), where f is the feedback percentage in the first iteration. Note that f can and often is negative, such that the gain is actually less than 1. This means that the net feedbacks at work damp or reduce the initial input, like the bowl in our example that kept returning our ball to the center.
Well, we don’t actually know the feedback fraction Romm is assuming, but we can derive it. We know his gain must be 4.3 — in other words, he is saying that an initial impact of CO2 of 3.5F is multiplied 4.3x to a final net impact of 15. So if the gain is 4.3, the feedback fraction f must be about 77%.
Does this make any sense? My contention is that it does not. A 77% first order feedback for a complex system is extraordinarily high — not unprecedented, because nuclear fission is higher — but high enough that it defies nearly every intuition I have about dynamic systems. On this assumption rests literally the whole debate. It is simply amazing to me how little good work has been done on this question. The government is paying people millions of dollars to find out if global warming increases acne or hurts the sex life of toads, while this key question goes unanswered. (Here is Roy Spencer discussing why he thinks feedbacks have been overestimated to date, and a bit on feedback from Richard Lindzen).
But for those of you looking to get some sense of whether a 15F forecast makes sense, here are a couple of reality checks.
First, we have already experienced about .43 if a doubling of CO2 from pre-industrial times to today. The same relationships and feedbacks and sensitivities that are forecast forward have to exist backwards as well. A 15F forecast implies that we should have seen at least 4F of this increase by today. In fact, we have seen, at most, just 1F (and to attribute all of that to CO2, rather than, say, partially to the strong late 20th century solar cycle, is dangerous indeed). But even assuming all of the last century’s 1F temperature increase is due to CO2, we are way, way short of the 4F we might expect. Sure, there are issues with time delays and the possibility of some aerosol cooling to offset some of the warming, but none of these can even come close to closing a gap between 1F and 4F. So, for a 15F temperature increase to be a correct forecast, we have to believe that nature and climate will operate fundamentally different than they have over the last 100 years.
Second, alarmists have been peddling a second analysis, called the Mann hockey stick, which is so contradictory to these assumptions of strong positive feedback that it is amazing to me no one has called them on the carpet for it. In brief, Mann, in an effort to show that 20th century temperature increases are unprecedented and therefore more likely to be due to mankind, created an analysis quoted all over the place (particularly by Al Gore) that says that from the year 1000 to about 1850, the Earth’s temperature was incredibly, unbelievably stable. He shows that the Earth’s temperature trend in this 800 year period never moves more than a few tenths of a degree C. Even during the Maunder minimum, where we know the sun was unusually quiet, global temperatures were dead stable.
This is simply IMPOSSIBLE in a high-feedback environment. There is no way a system dominated by the very high levels of positive feedback assumed in Romm’s and other forecasts could possibly be so rock-stable in the face of large changes in external forcings (such as the output of the sun during the Maunder minimum). Every time Mann and others try to sell the hockey stick, they are putting a dagger in the heart of high-positive-feedback driven forecasts (which is a category of forecasts that includes probably every single forecast you have seen in the media).
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Anthony,
I agree, if the container is big enough the milk will not boil over but reach a new equilibrium. Negative feedbacks will again become dominant.
To bring it back from analogy to reality, this is fortunately what is seen in past climate change – runaway warming has always been brought short, never being more than around +6 degC in the last few million years.
The saucepan analogy was supposed to illustrate how an instability might start to kick in, and how a historically well-behaved system might change its behaviour. It was not supposed to imply unbounded climate runaway.
REPLY: Thanks we’ve reached blog equilibrium. – Anthony
Andy (09:31:12) :
“Hank, to answer your question, it has to do with the infrared absorption characteristics of CO2. Absorption of “light” follows a logarithmic function (basically Beer’s Law). You eventually reach a saturation point where adding more has zero change.”
If memory serves, Andy has raised this point before; certainly others have. It is important, but ill-understood, and generally ignored. Beer’s Law looked at another way, says that given a fixed light source (in this case solar radiation re-emitted from the earth’s surface) and a fixed absorption path length (thickness of the atmosphere) there is a concentration of CO2 beyond which there is effectively no more radiation left to absorb at the wavelengths of interest (saturation). The atmosphere, at these wavelengths, is black. At this point adding more CO2 not only doesn’t do anything, it can’t. Nor can it therefore promote feedbacks of any kind. There is no more energy to absorb. The molecular structure of CO2 (or any other absorber) defines this saturation concentration.
Sorry but this is totally wrong.
The absorption bands are composed of a series of absorption lines, the positioning, spacing, extinction coefficient and width of which are characteristic of the molecule in question. The width of the line also depends on the pressure and temperature, broadening with increased pressure or temperature. At low concentration (the actual value depends on the molecule) the absorption is below saturation throughout the line and has a linear response to concentration. As concentration is increased the point is reached where the center of the line becomes saturated, absorption continues to increase but more slowly passing through an approximately logarithmic phase. Further increase in concentration ultimately leads to a square root dependence on concentration. Below is an example showing part of the CO2 spectrum under Earth and Mars conditions, as you can see the broadening is substantial.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn107/Sprintstar400/Mars-Earth.gif
Therefore, the only pertinent questions are, what is the saturation concentration for CO2 in the atmosphere, and how close are we to it? There have been several estimates of this (see Plimer’s recent videos, for instance), and the saturation concentration appears to be somewhere around 500 ppm. If so, then discussions of effects past this concentration are meaningless.
Tom P (21:11:54) :
Anthony,
I agree, if the container is big enough the milk will not boil over but reach a new equilibrium. Negative feedbacks will again become dominant.
To bring it back from analogy to reality, this is fortunately what is seen in past climate change – runaway warming has always been brought short, never being more than around +6 degC in the last few million years.
The saucepan analogy was supposed to illustrate how an instability might start to kick in, and how a historically well-behaved system might change its behaviour. It was not supposed to imply unbounded climate runaway.
REPLY: Thanks we’ve reached blog equilibrium. – Anthony
And in the case of boiling milk the instability can kick in because the stable operating condition occurs at the intersection of the linear heat loss line and the nonlinear heating curve. Because of the shape of the curve a sudden jump transition can occur for a small change in an operating parameter. (The curve below is for water).
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1012v2/img/h1012v2_64_1.jpg
“This reminded of a Three Stooges routine (of course nearly EVERYTHING reminds me of a Three Stooges routine nowadays): Slowly I turn, step-by-step, bit-by-bit, inch-by-inch, until…..”
Wouldn’t that be Abbot and Costello, or was it Hansen & Gore?
Mike Kelly said:
However, if some geologist are correct there is no way we can get to a doubling of CO2. The ratio of CO2 in air to water is 1-50. If true there is not enough coal and oil in the world to double CO2.
Ummm, if CO2 is 385 ppm now, did it double from 190 ppm previously or not?
Tom
“The next step for the United Nation to establish the IPFC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Fart Control.”
LOL
And, in the spirit of PC, we will be insulting people by saying:
I global warm in your general direction!
That is REAL pollution to worry about, not like this CO2 the arm-wavers talk about…
Extremely well written!!
I plan on carrying a copy of this on my PDA. I have gotten in numerous “discussions” with AGW advocates – the normal response is that my arguments are:
1.) Too technical and confusing (my fault for trying to present too much data verbally)
2.) Rely on verbal explanations and napkin graphs that don’t match what they remember from “An Inconvenient Lie”
3.) How could I say such things when “EVERYBODY KNOWS” that man is causing global warming
This is a much more cogent argument!
Failed data sets and models built to prove a conclusion are not limited to climate science- the following paper shows it is alive and well in other environmental sciences- a good read.
MODELS, MODELING and ei by Benjamin B. Stout (June 25, 2001
Western Forest Mensurationist Meeting)
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:2IC6O0I5VpgJ:www.westernforestry.org/wmens/m2001/stout.doc+magic+model+acid+rain+failure&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
I have two questions:
1. If there is a positive feedback mechanism in the earth’s climate system, why wouldn’t it have gone exponential at sometime in the last 4.5*10e9 years? Or are the catastrophists saying that there is an, as of yet unexperienced, positive feedback mechanism, which will be triggered by some combination of conditions which will happen in the near future, but which could have never happened in the past?
2. My understanding is that the maximum possible temperature for a “black body” the size and shape of the earth, and in the same orbit around the same sun, is a limit on the temperature of the earth.
The formula given at the link above (I assume that it is correct because I have neither the math nor the physics with which to gainsay it) has 4 parameters: The black body temperature of the sun (~5780K), the radius of the sun (~686 Mm), the radius of earth’s orbit around the sun (149 Gm), and the earth’s albedo. Of these, the only one men can affect is albedo.
I take it that the effect of adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere is the same as lowering the earth’s albedo. This increases the ratio of the earth’s “effective temperature” to the sun’s “effective temperature”. Currently the ratio is 4.3%. Setting the albedo to zero increases the ratio to a maximum of 4.8%.
It is worth noting that CO2 is transparent in the visible, where more of the sun’s spectrum is and cannot lower the albedo that much.
Does this mean that any possible AGW process is capped? How far are we from the cap?
Fatman,
For instability, you need positive feedback with a gain equal or greater than one, though systems with such a gain close to one are very difficult to stabilise.
In the past million years there has repeatedly been climate runaway, with temperatures rapidly rising by up to 10 deg C due to positive feedabck between CO2 and temperature:
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Ice_Age_Temperature_Rev_png
After a while, negative feedbacks will kick in, taking the feedback gain well below one and the climate will stabilise at a higher temperature – we’re in just such a period today, though previous interglacial maxima have been up to 6 degC greater than today.
The climate record therefore suggests a answer to your second question of 6 degC if we assume that past natural negative feedbacks would quickly kick in again and set the same cap to temperatures.
In this discussion the First Order effect is accepted to be a doubling effect of 1.2 degrees C per doubling. That s true only so long as you accept the Eddington equations as the definition of GHG actions. Dr. Ferenc Miskolczi correction to the the Eddigton equations as formulated by Milne in 1928. Miskolsci corrects from an infinite solar atmosphere to the finite bounded planetary atmosphere and corrects the boundary conditions and shows the doubling is, closer to .24 degrees C per CO2 doubling.
That is an order less of an effect; and also rules out runaway catastrophes.
Please research the work of NASA’s Dr. Ferenc Miskolczi and the recent explanatory publication
“”” stas peterson (10:38:00) :
In this discussion the First Order effect is accepted to be a doubling effect of 1.2 degrees C per doubling. That s true only so long as you accept the Eddington equations as the definition of GHG actions. Dr. Ferenc Miskolczi correction to the the Eddigton equations as formulated by Milne in 1928. Miskolsci corrects from an infinite solar atmosphere to the finite bounded planetary atmosphere and corrects the boundary conditions and shows the doubling is, closer to .24 degrees C per CO2 doubling.
That is an order less of an effect; and also rules out runaway catastrophes.
Please research the work of NASA’s Dr. Ferenc Miskolczi and the recent explanatory publication “””
When you say: “”the First Order effect is accepted to be a doubling effect of 1.2 degrees C per doubling. “” are you saying that is a universal property of CO2 ?
Over the total range of surface temperatures on earth; the infra-red emittance varies by at least an order of magnitude from the coldest places to the hottest places; so even if CO2 captured every bit of surface emitted IR, that couldn’t possibly caue a constant 1.2 dge C temperature rise anywhere that the CO2 doubled. In the polar regions there simply isn’t enough surface emitted IR at any time to raise the local temperature 1.2 deg C simply by doubling the CO2.
The concept of a fixed temperature rise per CO2 doubling; which according to Professor Lindzen, you climatologists call “Climate sensitivity” is quite nonsensical. The amount of energy available at any point also depends on the type of terrain, and the atmospheric conditions. In the coldest and other dry places such as tropical deserts there ins’t enough water available to respond to any CO2 warming and create some mythical water feedback amplification of the CO2 triggered warming.
“Climate Sensitivity” simply is not a scientific concept; and you won’t find tabulated values for it in any handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Well you won’t find any tables of “Forcings” in there either; another unscientific terminology of the “climate science” community.
No wonder the Japanese equivalent of our National Academy of Sciences said that the UN’s IPCC disaster climate predictions were the equivalent of “Ancient Astrology”, and that was being unkind to ancient astrology.
Are you saying that this CO2 doubling nonsense originated with Sir Arthur Eddington ? That man already has egg all over his face because of the fine structure constant ‘alpha’.
1/alpha used to be 136.xxx and Eddington wrote a paer in which he proved that it was in fact EXACTLY 136. Well as the experimental measurements got better, 1/alpha became closer to 137 than to 136; so eddington wrote another paper in which he proved that 1/alpha was in fact EXACTLY 137.
This brought loud guffaws from fellow Physicists and earned him the nickname: Professor Adding one. So even after his death he continues to wreak havoc in the field of science.
George
.
Reed Coray (10:41:00)
Tom P’s first attempt at formulating an argument occurred when Tom P described “positive feedback” using an example of milk heating in a saucepan [see http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/15/rommula-sudden-acceleration/. I have given some thought to Tom P’s heating-milk-in-a-saucepan Feedback Diagram and I couldn’t resist making two arguments that invalidate Tom P’s Feedback Diagram.
Tom P’s Feedback Diagram shows heat (labeled Reduced heat loss) from the element of the Feedback Diagram labeled Insulation being summed with the Heat In, and the sum heat passed into the element of the Feedback Diagram labeled Milk. Heat from the Milk is then passed to the Bubbles that form on the surface of the Milk. [Here I make the assumption that these Bubbles constitute the Insulation element in Tom P’s Feedback Diagram.] In my opinion, such a feedback can only exist if the Reduced heat loss is zero–which implies there is no feedback.
First, “heat” flows between two objects only when the objects are at different temperatures; and the “heat” always flows from the object at the higher temperature to the object at the lower temperature. In Tom P’s Feedback Diagram, the Heat In will flow into the Milk provided the temperature of the “heating element” (not shown in Tom P’s Feedback Diagram but assumed to be the source of the Heat In) is higher than the temperature of the Milk–a condition which is easy to achieve.
All “heat” entering the Milk (both the Heat In and the Reduced heat loss) acts first to raise the temperature of the Milk to the Milk’s boiling point at which time the heat ceases to raise the Milk’s temperature and instead acts to change the state of the Milk from a liquid to a gas (Bubbles). The temperature of the Bubbles (gaseous form of milk) is at or slightly below the boiling temperature of the Milk–that is, for boiling milk with no outside heat transfer into the gaseous form of the milk, the temperature of the liquid form of milk is at or above the temperature of the gaseous form of milk. Because heat won’t flow from an object at a lower temperature into an object at a higher temperature, no “heat” will flow from the Bubbles to the Milk. [Note: If the Bubbles are heated to a temperature higher than the Milk, then “heat” can flow from the Bubbles to the Milk.
Such will be the case if a portion of the heat from the “heating element” (which is hotter than both the Milk and the Bubbles) is directly transferred to the Bubbles; but Tom P’s Feedback Diagram does not include this “heat flow” path. In Tom P’s Feedback Diagram, the only heat entering the Bubbles is from the Milk.] Thus, as long as Milk exists, the temperature of the Bubbles is at or below the temperature of the Milk. Such a condition precludes the flow of “heat” from the Bubbles back into the Milk. This means the heat labeled Reduced heat loss in Tom P’s Feedback Diagram must be zero–which implies there is no feedback.
Second, suppose (a) the initial temperature of the Milk is “just below” the boiling point of milk such that any heat added to the Milk won’t raise the Milk’s temperature, but rather will boil the Milk–i.e., change the Milk from a liquid to a gas (Bubbles), (b) the Heat In is finite and is input over a finite time interval, and (c) the total amount of Heat In is sufficient to boil exactly 1/2 of the Milk.
Given these conditions, the Heat In can at most (and will) result in exactly 1/2 of the Milk being converted to a gas (Bubbles). According to Tom P’s Feedback Diagram, however, as the Milk boils, the Bubbles will return a portion of the heat used to “make the Bubbles” back into the Milk. As long as this returned heat (labeled Reduced heat loss in Tom P’s Feedback Diagram) is greater than zero, it will result in additional Milk being converted from a liquid to a gas. This means that if Tom P’s Feedback Diagram is correct and the “feedback heat” is not zero, an amount of externally supplied heat sufficient to boil at most 1/2 of the Milk will result in the boiling of more than 1/2 of the Milk.
This is a violation of the conservation of energy; and as such invalidates Tom P’s Feedback Diagram for all but zero Heat In the feedback path. Zero Heat In the feedback path means there is no feedback.