What If There Was No Greenhouse Effect?
by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.

The climate of the Earth is profoundly affected by two competing processes: the greenhouse effect, which acts to warm the lower atmosphere and cool the upper atmosphere, and atmospheric convection (thermals, clouds, precipitation) which does just the opposite: cools the lower atmosphere and warms the upper atmosphere.
To better understand why this happens, it is an instructive thought experiment to ask the question: What if there was no greenhouse effect? In other words, what if there were no infrared absorbers such as water vapor and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?
While we usually only discuss the greenhouse effect in the context of global warming (that is, the theory that adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere will lead to higher temperatures in the lower atmosphere), it turns out that the greenhouse effect has a more fundamental role: there would be no weather on Earth without the greenhouse effect.
First, the big picture: The Earth surface is warmed by sunlight, and the surface and atmosphere together cool by infrared radiation back to outer space. And just as a pot of water warming on the stove will stop warming when the rate of energy gained by the pot from the stove equals the rate of energy loss by the pot to its surroundings, an initially cold Earth would stop warming when the rate at which solar energy is absorbed equals the rate at which infrared energy is lost by the whole Earth-atmosphere system to space.
So, let’s imagine an extremely cold Earth and atmosphere, without any water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane or any other greenhouse gases – and with no surface water to evaporate and create atmospheric water vapor, either. Next, imagine the sun starts to warm the surface of the Earth. As the surface temperature rises, it begins to give off more infrared energy to outer space in response.
That’s the Earth’s surface. But what would happen to the atmosphere at the same time? The cold air in contact with the warming ground would also begin to warm by thermal conduction. Convective air currents would transport this heat upward, gradually warming the atmosphere from the bottom up. Importantly, this ‘dry convection’ will result in a vertical temperature profile that falls off by 9.8 deg. C for every kilometer rise in altitude, which is the so-called ‘adiabatic lapse rate’. This is because rising warm air parcels cool as they expand at the lower air pressures aloft, and the air that sinks in response to all of that rising air must warm at the same rate by compression.
Eventually, the surface and lower atmosphere would warm until the rate at which infrared energy is lost by the Earth’s surface to space would equal the rate at which sunlight is absorbed by the surface, and the whole system would settle into a fairly repeatable day-night cycle of the surface heating (and lower atmosphere convecting) during the day, and the surface cooling (and a shallow layer of air in contact with it) during the night.
The global-average temperature at which this occurs would depend a lot on how reflective the Earth’s surface is to sunlight in our thought experiment. ..it could be anywhere from well below 0 deg F for a partially reflective Earth to about 45 deg. F for a totally black Earth.
So, how is this different from what happens in the real world? Well, notice that what we are left with in this thought experiment is an atmosphere that is heated from below by the ground absorbing sunlight, but the atmosphere has no way of cooling…except in a very shallow layer right next to the ground where it can cool by conduction at night.
Why is this lack of an atmospheric cooling mechanism important? Because in our thought experiment we now have an atmosphere whose upper layers are colder than the surface and lower atmosphere. And what happens when there is a temperature difference in a material? Heat flows by thermal conduction, which would then gradually warm the upper atmosphere to reduce that temperature difference. The process would be slow, because the thermal conductivity of air is quite low. But eventually, the entire atmosphere would reach a constant temperature with height.
Only the surface and a shallow layer of air next to the surface would go through a day-night cycle of heating and cooling. The rest of the atmosphere would be at approximately the same temperature as the average surface temperature. And without a falloff of temperature with height in the atmosphere of at least 10 deg. C per kilometer, all atmospheric convection would stop.
Since it is the convective overturning of the atmosphere that causes most of what we recognize as ‘weather’, most weather activity on Earth would stop, too. Atmospheric convective overturning is what causes clouds and rainfall. In the tropics, it occurs in relatively small and strongly overturning thunderstorm-type weather systems.
At higher latitudes, that convection occurs in much larger but more weakly overturning cloud and precipitation systems associated with low pressure areas.
There would probably still be some horizontal wind flows associated with the fact that the poles would still be cooler than the tropics, and the day-night heating cycle that moves around the Earth each day. But for the most part, most of what we call ‘weather’ would not occur. The same is true even if there was surface water and water vapor…but if we were able to somehow ‘turn off’ the greenhouse effect of water vapor. Eventually, the atmosphere would still become ‘isothermal’, with a roughly constant temperature with height.
Why would this occur? Infrared absorbers like water vapor and carbon dioxide provide an additional heating mechanism for the atmosphere. But at least as important is the fact that, since infrared absorbers are also infrared emitters, the presence of greenhouse gases allow the atmosphere — not just the surface — to cool to outer space.
When you pile all of the layers of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere on top of one another, they form a sort of radiative blanket, heating the lower layers and cooling the upper layers. (For those of you who have heard claims that the greenhouse effect is physically impossible, see my article here. There is a common misconception that the rate at which a layer absorbs IR energy must equal the rate at which it loses IR energy, which in general is not true.)
Without the convective air currents to transport excess heat from the lower atmosphere to the upper atmosphere, the greenhouse effect by itself would make the surface of the Earth unbearably hot, and the upper atmosphere (at altitudes where where jets fly) very much colder than it really is.
Thus, it is the greenhouse effect that continuously de-stabilizes the atmosphere, ‘trying’ to create a temperature profile that the atmosphere cannot sustain, which then causes all different kinds of weather as the atmosphere convectively overturns. Thus, the greenhouse effect is actually required to explain why weather occurs.
This is what makes water such an amazing substance. It cools the Earth’s surface when it evaporates, it warms the upper atmosphere when it re-condenses to form precipitation, it warms the lower atmosphere through the greenhouse effect, and it cools the upper atmosphere by emitting infrared radiation to outer space (also part of the greenhouse effect process). These heating and cooling processes are continuously interacting, with each limiting the influence of the other.
As Dick Lindzen alluded to back in 1990, while everyone seems to understand that the greenhouse effect warms the Earth’s surface, few people are aware of the fact that weather processes greatly limit that warming. And one very real possibility is that the 1 deg. C direct warming effect of doubling our atmospheric CO2 concentration by late in this century will be mitigated by the cooling effects of weather to a value closer to 0.5 deg. C or so (about 1 deg. F.) This is much less than is being predicted by the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change or by NASA’s James Hansen, who believe that weather changes will amplify, rather than reduce, that warming.
Three cheers, then, for GHGs!
“But eventually, the entire atmosphere would reach a constant temperature with height.”
Why wouldn’t the adiabatic expansion mechanism then continue to convey heat downwards (the air would not be motionless because of diurnal effects and thermal inhomogeneity), to restore and maintain (nearly) the adiabatic lapse rate of -9.8 K/km? Surely this mechanism moves heat more effectively than conduction?
What would we talk about without the weather?
Seems like the Coriolis Effect from tropics to mid-latitudes would still mix things up quite a bit, but it’s interesting seeing how the GHG’s create a vertical stirring force locally.
So, does this idea map to Venus, where the extreme heat occurs because it has no water vapor to create a circulation that can “cool” things off?
Roy:
“There is a common misconception that the rate at which a layer absorbs IR energy must equal the rate at which it loses IR energy, which in general is not true.)”
I would strike that sentence or expand upon it. The terms ‘rate’ and ‘energy’ are being used loosely here, although, it’s clear that you can easily be right with judicious selection of definitions. I don’t think you need it, and, I think you added that sentence because it’s actually another essay you want to write.
“Invariant (13:56:45) :
What would we talk about without the weather?”
Somebody would invent a catastrophic scenario that can only be averted by giving said person lots of gold so said person can go and try to figure out ways to avert it. Each time said person comes back said person tells the people “It’s even worse than i thought and i need some more gold to do more research.”
It’s all physics with a bit of good old negative feedback.
“Why would this occur? Infrared absorbers like water vapor and carbon dioxide provide an additional heating mechanism for the atmosphere. But at least as important is the fact that, since infrared absorbers are also infrared emitters, the presence of greenhouse gases allow the atmosphere — not just the surface — to cool to outer space.”
You don’t need the greenhouse gases to cool the atmosphere, oxygen and nitrogen are infared emitters according to the Planck black body radiation effect.
So the atmosphere cools without the greehouse gases.
thanks
I am now very confused.
1) IR – is emitted by any thing that is above 0 deg Kelvin
so not only does the surface of the earth emit IR but ANY gas; liquid or solid that is above 0K does so to.
2) Coriolis effect; the difference in ground heating (caused by the reduced w/m^2 as you approach the poles) will generate cyclones or anti-cyclones -(can’t work out which – I think anti in the N & cyclonic in the S hemispheres) – so there would be some fairly large perturbations as these Coriolis storms built up
3) Since the atmosphere would be above 0K the space facing layers would radiate IR up AND down (well through a full sphere) – how efficient I am not at all sure – it would depend on how similar to a black body the gas mixture was – there was a blog here before Christmas that took us through some of the Black body stuff.
4) In equilibrium; the (outer shell of atmosphere of the) earth would re-radiate exactly the same amount of energy as it receives. (Ignoring the heat trapped in the centre of the earth).
Sorry I just do not see a static atmosphere; so ‘weather’ and ‘Climate’ would still occur. The only way for there to no weather would be to either
a) be a very small planet/non-rotating planet
b) no atmosphere (or both !)
Given the Coriolis force is enough to spin the water in a small sink (except on the equator) I just can not see how a lack of GHC would prevent weather/climate at all. Is it not perhaps the case that the GHG actually mitigate the Coriolis storms by generating substantial non-Coriolis air flows ?
“This is what makes water such an amazing substance. It cools the Earth’s surface when it evaporates, it warms the upper atmosphere when it re-condenses to form precipitation, it warms the lower atmosphere through the greenhouse effect, and it cools the upper atmosphere by emitting infrared radiation to outer space. These heating and cooling processes are continuously interacting, with each limiting the influence of the other.”
So it’s not the greenhouse effect, it’s the automatically adjusting air-con effect.
Thanks Dr Roy, great explanation.
Its good that Scientists like Spencer and Lindzen exist.
Roy is talking about the planet Mars.
Unfortunately the notion that the lower atmosphere “warms” the surface is physically wrong – no more than double glazing “warms” the inside of a house
Please correct me if I’m wrong. (Anyone.)
If the adiabatic lapse rate is only maintained by GHGs, then an increase in GHG would increase the actual observed temperature decline with altitude…
(Which if my grandma’s rule of thumb is still valid, is much less than 10`per km.)
So more GHG = more snow at altitude, greater albedo effect… hey presto, already the beginnings of a self-correcting mechanism?
Thank you Dr. Spencer, as always you clear the air –so to speak. O/T: Given your replacement’s emphesis on AGW, what’s he really trying to limit? Is there one manmade greenhouse gas that Hansen has some special hatred for? I know from personal experience that the upper atmosphere is full of manmade chemicals that nature never intended to be there. What’s the most offending? Is that Hansen’s demon too?
Very interesting thought experiment. The majority of the population has little or no understanding as to even the basics of the atmosphere. A simple question I like to ask is “what heats the atmosphere?”. Most people say the sun, but that is not necessarily correct. My answer used to be that the sun heats the earth and the earth radiates that heat to the atmosphere. That is the short answer, and many here know that it is far too simplistic. It does however make people aware that even the basics are difficult to comprehend. Add water vapor (the most prevalent of GHGs) and the answer becomes much more complex. Then start adding all the other variables. Very informative article and worthy of further contemplation. Thank you Dr. Spencer.
Dear Dr. Roy W. Spencer,
In this imagined world without greenhouse gases – how long would it take to establish equilibrium again if the world was cooled by 1 ºC?
Best Regards,
Invariant
“bob (14:18:37) :
[…]
You don’t need the greenhouse gases to cool the atmosphere, oxygen and nitrogen are infared emitters according to the Planck black body radiation effect.
So the atmosphere cools without the greehouse gases.”
Every material emits radiation given the temperature is hot enough. This is not the question. For a good explanation see Willis Eschenbach’s Steel greenhouse writeup:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/17/the-steel-greenhouse/
It’s really nice to see someone of stature putting out this information.
One assumption though was that clouds were not a part of the ‘what if’ scenario. Of course they wouldn’t exist with no water vapor but their effect is great anyway. They’re responsible for nearly 0.22 of the overall 0.31 albedo, reducing the total incoming power that must be balanced. Also, they are going to emit in a continuum rather than simply h2o vapor spectral wavelengths. Essentially though, they also provide a lower temperature ‘surface’ much higher above sea level.
My other concern is that in the basics, the lapse rate fundamentals ignores radiative power loss and absorption and assumes adiabatic.
I believe that Roy has stated many times in the past that the water cycle is the most important aspect by far. At the surface, convection, including the latent heat from evaporation, h2o averages roughly around 100 W/m^2 of energy transfer at the surface. By the tropopause, that amount has reduced to effectively 0. This is from a conservation of energy (power) estimate based on a simple one-dimensional model. This helps define our lapse rate value as it has to have conservation of energy (power) on the short term. That’s not to denegrate the advection effect.
One of the factors that has bugged me is that with the increase of ghgs in the atmosphere, that doesn’t increase any visible light coming in which warms the lower oceans. All of the increase in incoming power to the oceans will be IR and have no penetration into the ocean. That suggests the added heat results in more water evaporation which increases the convection and should lead to greater cloud cover which should increase albedo and reduce incoming solar (some concept of Lindzen’s iris effect concept). In no case should that incoming IR result in heating the oceans lower down. Heat doesn’t flow from cold to warm and all physical phenomenon is working against heating the water from the top.
blokeinfrance (14:27:07) :
The lapse rate is maintained by the PVT relationships of air. If you heat an element of air, it will decrease in density. Then, archimedes principle will cause it to rise and cool (adiabatically) until its density again matches that of the surrounding air. Thus, even with a transparent atmosphere the sun will heat the earth, the earth will heat the layer of air next to the earth by conduction, causing it to become buoyant, it will rise, etc, etc, etc. Without water vapor though, the process would be more like conditions over dry deserts, where convection extends to higher altitudes and clouds do not necessarily form.
The greenhouse effect can be physically explained without the greenhouse gases.
“Here, using a different approach, it is shown that GE can be explained as mainly being a consequence of known physical laws describing the behaviour of ideal gases in a gravity field”
Hans Jelbring, The “Greenhouse Effect” as a Function of Atmospheric Mass
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mscp/ene/2003/00000014/F0020002/art00011
http://www.tech-know.eu/NISubmission/pdf/Politics_and_the_Greenhouse_Effect.pdf
Surely the oceans would have convective effects even in you model sans water vapour? How would the variable heating of different land and sea masses affect your model?
Aagh, let me try again. Surely the oceans would have convective effects even in your model sans water vapour?
is this excerpt to be be taken as current scientific theory, or a prediction from the ipcc?
“And one very real possibility is that the 1 deg. C direct warming effect of doubling our atmospheric CO2 concentration by late in this century will be mitigated by the cooling effects of weather to a value closer to 0.5 deg. C or so (about 1 deg. F.)”
i.e. is it agreed that the atmospheric co2 WILL double, and the warming WILL be 1 deg. C ?? among scientists?
John A
If you have to be pedantic, yes.
In reality, the lower atmosphere slows down the rate at which the surface loses heat, thereby making it ‘warmer’ than it would otherwise have been.
Roy,
Well done, this is likely to bemuse, confuse and hopefully in the end enlighten a lot of people. It will also I expect raise more questions than can be adequately answered.
Most people, I include myself, would have to lie down in a darkened room for a few hours, if they thought hard enough to get to grips with the issues rasied by an IR transparent atmosphere, and juxtapose it against a IR grey one.
Best Wishes
Alex