In a just-released report, the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) claims that renewable energy is the most cost-competitive source of new electricity generation worldwide, The report further claims that “91% of new renewable power projects commissioned last year were more cost-effective than any new fossil fuel alternative” based on levelized costs, which can be thought of as the energy equivalent of a fixed mortgage.
If those claims sound too good to be true, it’s because they are. IRENA’s boasts ignore a fundamental reality: the intermittent electricity generated from wind and solar is fundamentally different than electricity generated by traditional generating resources that are not subject to the whims of the weather.
In the U.S., the Energy Information Administration (EIA) makes the same mistake. The EIA claims that wind and solar will account for the lion’s share of new generating capacity for the next decade and will provide electricity at a lower levelized cost than any traditional resource, including new natural gas generators.
But the episodic nature of wind and solar power has critical impacts on both supply adequacy and cost, which, while recognized by some, are nonetheless not incorporated into how bottom-line data. Traditional coal, natural gas, nuclear, and hydroelectric generating plants can be scheduled to run when needed. Some of them, especially nuclear and most coal plants, are designed to operate continuously and are referred to as “baseload” facilities. Others, especially natural gas plants, can quickly be turned on or off (“dispatched”) to match changes in demand. Collectively, traditional generation can be both scheduled and dynamically managed, enabling the operators of electric grids to reliably meet demand at the lowest cost.
The inherent intermittency of wind and solar reduces the physical and economic value of their capacity relative to traditional generating resources, as sufficient reserves or storage must be maintained to meet demand when they are unavailable. Merely reporting total wind and solar capacity misleads because it does not account for the adequacy of the electrical energy generated to meet demand and the actual costs to do so.
Here’s an analogy. Imagine that a city and its citizens are offered two types of buses for commuting. One is with new buses and free fares. However, these run only one-third of the time, are often unpredictable, and are less likely to show up on bad-weather days. If you wait for one of these new free buses but it fails to show up, you must suffer the inconvenience of having to take a relatively expensive Uber ride, which can cost even more on busy or bad-weather days. Meanwhile, the other option is to pay a modest fare (say, one-tenth of an Uber ride) on a conventional bus—but one that’s reliable, regardless of weather. Over a year of commuting, the total costs for the “free” bus service are likely to be much higher and the value much lower than commuting on the conventional bus service.
In the context of electric grids, Uber rides represent the cost of either backup generating capacity or battery storage to compensate for wind and solar unavailability. Adding to these costs is the fact that, when electricity demand is greatest—typically, during the early morning and early evening hours—little, if any, solar power will be available. Similarly, meteorological records show that on the hottest and coldest days, there is often little wind. There can also be multiday periods, often lasting days and even a week, when there is little or no wind (a wind drought) and multiple cloudy days when little solar power is generated. Thus, wind and solar are often most available when the electricity they generate has the least value.
Fundamentally, cost and value are not the same thing. Comparing levelized costs, such as fixed mortgage payments for different homes, provides little insight into actual value. For example, a monthly mortgage payment of $2,000 for one house, versus one of, say, $2,500 for another, provides no information about either house’s value in terms of size, location, condition, and so forth. Similarly, the levelized cost doesn’t reveal power plant attributes, especially intermittency. The lowest levelized cost resources may not be the highest-value ones, or even the cheapest ones, when operated over time in the real world.
For electricity planners and regulators to identify the highest true value, they must compare costs and operational benefits. Just like the commuter bus that doesn’t arrive on a rainy morning, intermittent capacity that is unavailable when it is most needed has far lower economic value.
Promoting misleading claims about wind and solar power distorts policymaking and will only exacerbate the growing inadequacy of electric supplies to meet increased demand in the wake of continued electrification efforts. It will lead to more frequent electricity rationing, as the Netherlands has recently imposed.
That may appeal to hairshirt environmentalists, but it won’t appeal to the broader populace, who are likely to express their displeasure at the ballot box.
Jonathan Lesser is a senior fellow with the National Center for Energy Analytics. This piece is adapted from his recent report, “The U.S. Energy Information Administration Needs to Fix How It Reports Renewable Power Capacity.”
This article was originally published by RealClearEnergy and made available via RealClearWire.
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Properly costing wind and solar should
include the cost of conventional backup, for the inevitable periods when wind and solar are producing nothing significant.
Or, if one wants green fantasyland, battery storage. For the longest dunkelflaute on record, plus two standard deviations.
Also add the cost of new transmission infrastructure as well as replacement and disposal costs after 20 years or less.
It may be out there, but I’ve asked before and have yet to see even a simple comparison of cost per GWh for wind/solar vs. coal/gas that accounts for ALL costs involved over the lifetime of the plant. (which would include those you mention, cotpacker)
Another thought, if they double the size of the wind network, when there is too much wind, it will imply that the constraint payment will be doubled.
Then also consider recharging time for the battery and dedicated renewable generation specific to that task. You can’t recharge a battery if you need all the juice being produced by your renewable generation fleet to run your businesses and homes.
This is probably the most overlooked metric in the lemming march to Net Zero Energy. You need at least 5x the capacity of renewables as conventional energy, because they only work about 20% of the time on average.
Then you need to multiply that by a significant amount because the maximum times without generating energy might be quite long,. Several days at least, several weeks at worst.
So a figure of 10 to 50x is not unreasonable, plus batteries, of course. The overall costs are insane.
Then, on those days that produce nameplate, you have Massive Overcapacity with no place to put it
Yes – advocates dont understand waster
And it still won’t work. You need the fossil fuel powered plants to maintain grid frequency and provide backup. No matter how much worse-than-useless wind and solar you build.
Zig – your comment is spot on – Most advocates misuse the LCOE either out of ignorance or deceit.
M Jacobson 100% renewable states that WWS costs are less at least 100 times, yet his Table S9 and S11 tell a different story
Table 9 lists the gross capacity of WWS (in 2050) of 4953 gw .
Table 11 lists the average capacity of WWS of approx 1357 gw
The average hourly usage in the US in 2025 is approx 480gw.
The estimated hourly usage in the US in 2050 will be approx 600gw
LCOE is based on the assumption that all the electricity is consumed. However, Jacobson’s study has 2.2x redundancy. therefore the correct denominator has to be divided by 2.2 to get the correct LCOE. Note that the above calculation doesnt account for storage for the down time,
Jacobson brags that his 100% renewable study has been stress tested every 30secs. He is full of $—–.
Using the same numbers in jacobson’s study from table S9 and using the actual capacity % factors that occurred during the Feb 2021 freeze, the north american continent will be short by 10-20% of required electricity.
The feb 2021 freeze occurred during winter, therefore the capacity factor for solar is closer to 8% not 20% as used by jacobson
The was a wind doldrum that lasted for 10-11 days across the north american continent. Therefore the actual capacity factor was around 10-15%, not the 38% as used in his study.
IRENA Reports are even more biased than Bloomberg and IEA-Paris reports.
Ignore them.
The US-EIA reports may start to improve, due to Trump axing of wind/solar/battery subsidies, EV subsidies and offshore wind leases
Here is a list of items related to wind/solar on the grid
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-uk-germany-spain-france-etc-in-deep-wind-solar-do-do
1) Highly subsidized, expensive W/S systems that disturb the grid with weather-dependent, variable, intermittent electricity, which has caused expensive brownouts/blackouts, as in Spain/Portugal, California, Texas, New England, etc., and many other places, over the years.
2) Grid expansion to connect all these far-flung wind/solar systems to the grid,
3) Grid reinforcements to ensure the grids do not crash during periods with higher levels of W/S power.
.
Here are some operational realities of W/S systems that are at the core of their problems:
.
Synchronous Rotational Inertia, SRI, Stabilizes the Grid
Closing down traditional plants (nuclear, gas, coal, hydro), with rotating generators that provide SRI, de-stabilizes the grid; a death sentence for the grid.
.
Wind/solar systems provide ZERO SRI to help stabilize the grid, because their variable outputs are digitized, then reconstituted into an artificial sine wave with the same phase and frequency as the grid.
Super expensive battery systems provide ZERO SRI.
Battery systems can provide virtual inertia, at very high c/kWh, by means of their back-end DC to AC power electronics (which failed in Spain/Portugal), which can quickly counteract voltage/frequency drops for a short time.
.
Connections Between Grids
Almost all grids have connections to other grids for import and export purposes.
About 50% of such connections are high-voltage, direct-current lines, HVDC
Such DC connections transfer power, but transfer ZERO SRI to other grids.
.
Reactive Power
No AC grid can function without positive reactive power; say power factor of 0.8
Wind/solar systems draw reactive power FROM the grid; say power factor of -0.8
All traditional power plants are automatically set up to feed positive reactive power TO the grid.
.
Synchronous Condenser Systems
The weather-dependent, variable/intermittent, wind/solar feed-ins to the grid often create transmission faults.
Those faults are often minimized with synchronous-condenser systems that provide positive reactive power TO the grid.
Blackouts
In case of too much W/S power, it needs to be curtailed.
Owners usually get paid for what they could have produced.
.
In case of too little W/S power or a W/S outage, reliable, quick-reacting CCGT plants, in Standard Operating Procedure, SOP, mode, would:
.
1) Provide a few seconds of SRI “ride-through” to give switches time to switch, and
2) Provide power to the grid, within seconds, to counteract voltage/frequency drops, 24/7/365
3) Enable automatic load shedding to take place, as needed, etc.
.
NOTE: If battery systems were used, they would be empty after a few hours, with no prospect of a black grid to refill them.
.
NOTE: Spain/Portugal would have needed about 10,000 MW of CCGT plants in SOP mode to avoid its recent blackout.
As a fleet, they would operate at up to 75% output throughout the year, and quickly provide up to 2500 MW, in case of a W/S outage.
For those who thing batteries are the Knight in Shining Armor, here are some sobering numbers.
BATTERY SYSTEM CAPITAL COSTS, OPERATING COSTS, ENERGY LOSSES, AND AGING
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-system-capital-costs-losses-and-aging
.
Utility-scale, battery system pricing usually is not made public, but for this system it was.
Neoen, in western Australia, has just turned on its 219 MW/ 877 MWh Tesla Megapack battery, the largest in western Australia.
Ultimately, it will be a 560 MW/2,240 MWh battery system, $1,100,000,000/2,240,000 kWh = $491/kWh, delivered as AC, late 2024 pricing. Smaller capacity systems will cost much more than $500/kWh
.
Annual Cost of Megapack Battery Systems; 2023 pricing
Assume a system rated 45.3 MW/181.9 MWh, and an all-in turnkey cost of $104.5 million, per Example 2
Amortize bank loan for 50% of $104.5 million at 6.5%/y for 15 years, $5.484 million/y
Pay Owner return of 50% of $104.5 million at 10%/y for 15 years, $6.765 million/y (10% due to high inflation)
Lifetime (Bank + Owner) payments 15 x (5.484 + 6.765) = $183.7 million
Assume battery daily usage for 15 years at 10%, and loss factor = 1/(0.9 *0.9)
Battery lifetime output = 15 y x 365 d/y x 181.9 MWh x 0.1, usage x 1000 kWh/MWh = 99,590,250 kWh to HV grid; 122,950,926 kWh from HV grid; 233,606,676 kWh loss
(Bank + Owner) payments, $183.7 million / 99,590,250 kWh = 184.5 c/kWh
Less 50% subsidies (tax credits, 5-y depreciation, loan interest deduction) is 92.3c/kWh
Subsidies shift costs from project Owners to ratepayers, taxpayers, government debt
At 10% throughput, (Bank + Owner) cost, 92.3 c/kWh
At 40% throughput, (Bank + Owner) cost, 23.1 c/kWh
.
Excluded costs/kWh: 1) O&M; 2) system aging, 1.5%/y, 3) 20% HV grid-to-HV grid loss, 4) grid extension/reinforcement to connect battery systems, 5) downtime of parts of the system, 6) decommissioning in year 15, i.e., disassembly, reprocessing and storing at hazardous waste sites. Excluded costs would add at least 15 c/kWh
COMMENTS ON CALCULATION
Almost all existing battery systems operate at less than 10%, per EIA annual reports i.e., new systems would operate at about 92.4 + 15 = 107.4 c/kWh. They are used to stabilize the grid, i.e., frequency control and counteracting up/down W/S outputs. If 40% throughput, 23.1 + 15 = 38.1 c/kWh.
A 4-h battery system costs 38.1 c/kWh of throughput, if operated at a duty factor of 40%.
That is on top of the cost/kWh of the electricity taken from the HV grid to feed the batteries
Up to 40% could occur by absorbing midday solar peaks and discharging during late-afternoon/early-evening, which occur every day in California and other sunny states. The more solar systems, the greater the peaks.
See URL for Megapacks required for a one-day wind lull in New England
40% throughput is close to Tesla’s recommendation of 60% maximum throughput, i.e., not charge above 80% and not discharge below 20%, to perform 24/7/365 service for 15 y, with normal aging.
Owners of battery systems with fires, likely charged above 80% and discharged below 20% to maximize profits.
Tesla’s recommendation was not heeded by the Owners of the Hornsdale Power Reserve in Australia. They excessively charged/discharged the system. After a few years, they added Megapacks to offset rapid aging of the original system, and added more Megapacks to increase the rating of the expanded system.
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-hornsdale-power-reserve-largest-battery-system-in-australia
Regarding any project, the bank and Owner have to be paid, no matter what. I amortized the bank loan and Owner’s investment
Divide total payments over 15 years by the throughput during 15 years, you get c/kWh, as shown.
There is about a 20% round-trip loss, from HV grid to 1) step-down transformer, 2) front-end power electronics, 3) into battery, 4) out of battery, 5) back-end power electronics, 6) step-up transformer, to HV grid, i.e., you draw about 50 units from the HV grid to deliver about 40 units to the HV grid, because of A-to-Z system losses. That gets worse with aging.
A lot of people do not like these c/kWh numbers, because they have been repeatedly told by self-serving folks, battery Nirvana is just around the corner.
Thanks Wil, I’ve been using one of your previous posts on the same subject for a year or so. This year’s favorite price for grid scale storage installation from the wind and solar aficionados is $139/kwh. I tell them that’s the battery cost sitting on the loading dock at the battery plant. I don’t know where they get that number, but there it is. When I tell them the cost for an up and running tested and commissioned grid scale storage system is $500/kwh I get insults and replies blocked.
That is the reason I started my comment with the turnkey cost provided by the Australian owner.
I spend a lot of time looking on the internet for turnkey costs of similar battery insulations.
A $139/kWh likely relates to a battery pack before it is installed in a car. That pack is supported by other systems to complete the drive train.
Any comparison should be on drivetrain vs drivetrain basis
Such battery packs are good for at most 6 to 8 years, are used only a few hours per day at an average speed of city/highway driving of 30 mph. That is my average speed in my Subaru Outback, after 2.5 years
Utility systems are used 24/7/365 for 15 years, an entirely different situation.
Not really. Its a misnomer from the climate lobby. Its not backup. What’s really happening is that wind and solar are being added to a system. The right way is to specify what is needed in a generating system, then compare the various ways of delivering it. Conventional plus some wind and solar is one way. Straight conventional is another.
Its not really backup, though. Its exactly the other way around. You have or can have a conventional system which meets the spec. The question is whether adding wind and solar to it reduces the cost of doing that.
I have never seen any proper case that it does.
Wind and solar have one big cost advantage. The fuel is free.
Articles like this say that there are various disadvantages of being non-dispatchable, but never with quantification, so there is no way of assessng whether that outweighs the fuel cost saving. But there is a way of quantifying, which is the capacity auction system. People contract to undertake the whole cost of intermittency. Idle equipment, capital, the lot. That costs a bit too, but generally less than 20% of the fuel cost saving.
Yeah sure..the fuel is free but you can’t add more if nature isn’t cooperative. It’s free but only available at Natures whim. And you can’t add more sunlight after 4 pm when most solar ceases generation. Keep your unreliable “Free Fuel” I’d rather buy fuel that I can add more when needed regardless of weather or time of day.
In the example given, the “renewable” bus was free, but it cost many times more than the alternative. As usual, Nick either didn’t read the article, or only read it to find something to nit pick.
Yet Another Misleading Comment from Nick Stokes on “Low-Cost” Wind and Solar
That is not an advantage at all. All fuel is free.
The cost of collecting it and converting it to energy is not, however, as you very well know, but utterly refuse to acknowledge. Indeed, the cost of collecting solar and wind energy and converting it to useful energy at a time and place that it is needed, is much higher than any others.
You are either deliberately lying, and repeatedly, or are extremely ignorant. I think I know which.
Understand the difference between CapEx and OpEx
Similar to the difference between Prescience and Futility
Oh, I understand the difference extremely well, having done accounting for a job. It does not matter. The overall costs matter. Spreading Capital Expenditure over the expected lifetime actually makes wind and solar even less attractive given their relatively short lifetimes.
concur –
Also omitted is the cost of redundancy that significantly decreases the denominator in the lcoe computation. marginal cost marginal benefit is a concept ignored by the advocates. (probably the most important economic concept after the supply and demand curves).
Understand that OpEx has to include the cost of maintaining suitable back up for when wind and solar are not providing the energy needed.
But the costs of operation and maintenance is emphatically not free and the cost of electric energy storage is also not free.
That is where the capacity auctions come in. People undertake to bear those costs, for a finite price, wjhich is a lot less than the cost of fuel.
All fuel is free. See above.
I’m beginning to understand how Mr Stokes makes money
The British capacity auctions for wind in 2024 when adjusted to 2024 prices were higher than the cost of gas power. And this is before the costs of intermittency were added to the price of wind power. It looks highly likely that the winning bids for the 2025 auction for wind power will be even higher than the 2024 auction.
The 2025 auction winning bidds were lower price than 2024. The total cost was £1.45B. The UK spends £6.5B on gas alone for electricity generation.
The 2025 auction hasn’t taken place yet. Only the maximum bid prices have been published which are higher than last year’s maximum bid prices. I expect the winning bids to be considerably higher than last year’s winning bids.
It is entirely misleading to consider the capacity market costs as representative of the cost of supplying backup. GB is now a major power importer, so we have to pay for the interconnectors and and supply from abroad, which include costs incurred to provide sufficient dispatchable generation to supply the interconnectors during Dunkelflaute which will affect our suppliers.
The spend on gas provided power not avaliable from renewables or imports at prices that were far lower than those we were paying for renewables. A rational market would place the renewables low in the merit order.
Since you are arguing that wind and sun are free, perhaps we should treat all renewables revenues as being a capacity payment (perhaps with a deduction for volume related maintenance cost). That would come to 145TWh x £150+/MWh or ~£22+bn for 2024. Then you need to add the extra grid capacity charges as a capacity market charge.
“It is entirely misleading to consider the capacity market costs as representative of the cost of supplying backup.”
What else are they? People are paid to guarantee power when it is needed. They bid for the payment, and cover the costs.
paid to guarantee power when it is needed
What happens if they fail to meet their obligation?
They pay a penalty for the period of failure.
I have just itemised a bunch of backup costs that you ignored. They aren’t all of the missing costs either. Attempts to pretend that historic capacity market auction current payments cover the bill are false.
Recent auctions have seen wind and solar in the low single digit in offering “capacity”
…. BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY CAN’T!
It’s just a back door to provide them with some extra subsidy bunce so far as they are concerned. Same with batteries.
This must be why PJM just contracted for capacity at $347/MW. Not counting the varying cost of providing the energy itself.
That is where government steps in and holds dishonest auctions that don’t penalize bidders for when they fail to produce the power that they have pledged to produce.
You should take a winter vacation in Winnipeg, where the average temperature in January ranges from -20° to -10° C. With wind chill the temperature can be even lower. Winnipeg has hydro power and gets nat. gas from Alberta.
How do you keep warm in winter and how do you heat water?
“That costs a bit too, but generally less than 20% of the fuel cost saving.”
Reference? Without models please.
The total cost of 2025 auction was £1.45B. The UK spends £6.5B on gas alone for electricity generation.
Could you be a bit more specific about what exactly you are comparing with what? Grok says:
I cannot provide a specific figure for the UK’s spending on gas for electricity generation in 2025, as the sources do not provide an exact amount for this year.
However, I can offer some context based on available information.
In 2024, the UK’s electricity grid supply included 26.9% from fossil fuels, primarily natural gas.
A post on X from August 2025 estimates the UK spends approximately £6 billion per year on gas for electricity generation, though this figure is not independently verified and should be treated with caution….
….For a precise figure, more detailed data from sources like the National Grid or Ofgem would be needed, but based on the available information, the estimate of around £6 billion annually is a reasonable starting point for 2025, subject to fluctuations in gas prices and consumption. For further details, you can explore Ofgem’s reports or the National Grid’s energy data at their respective websites.
If this is correct it looks like you are comparing total gas spend for generation in the UK to the bids for remedying intermittency from wind in the UK.
Is this correct? I don’t understand what you think the comparison shows, or why.
“If this is correct it looks like you are comparing total gas spend for generation in the UK to the bids for remedying intermittency from wind in the UK.”
Yes. The gas spend is a big part of the cost that can be largely removed by increasing W&S. People say, but look at the cost of intermittency. Well, that is covered by the capacity contracts.
The comparison isn’t perfect; while the capacity prices are currently coming down, they might increase approaching zero gas. But the discrepancy is great.
Wrong. If you increase wind and solar you pay to invest in it. It is not free. Moreover, increasing fractionsof the incremental output will be subject to curtailment as economically unstoppable surpluses,while the extra generational times of Dunkelflaute shortage will be derisory,so the cost per useful MWh will escalate alarmingly.
Unstoppable=unstorable
Autocorrect ugh!
Please include all subsidies for renewable energy. Please deduct all duties paid to the government for fossil fuels.
Then get back to us.
Nick is just showing his total ignorance of cost accounting.
Cost Accounting is a discipline, its a vital ingredient of GAAP (Generally Acceepted Accounting Practice). What he is doing is take one current cost, fuel, and then claiming that because this is lower for system A than for system B, this shows that system A is a more cost effective producer.
One of the first things you’ll learn in Cost Accounting 101 is that you cannot use one of a variety of costs, capital and current, as all you need to know to assess costs.
Or put it another way if you like, what he id claiming is that there are no other relevant material cost differences, capital or current, between a conventional system and one with wind and solar added. This is obviously false.
Why is cost accounting so important? Because it determines whether you are making a profit. It determines whether you stay in business. Or in the present case whether nations go bankrupt in pursuit of illusory ways of generating power.
I keep saying, do this in a presentation to any large company Finance Committee, and you’d be shown the door. Not just of the conference room, either!
To put it in a simpler manner, Nick is assuming that the only difference between wind/solar and fossil is the cost of the fuel.
He is not assuming this. He is not considering looking at it (the system) properly. To every question he uses deviation to highlight something (else) so he doesnt have to adress the fundamentals. But i am unsure whether he is completely or partially (un)aware of this. He could simply be playing games and enjoying the ruckus. I am not playing..Don’t make eyecontact.Don’t engage. Ignore the known silhouette coming towards you.
Yes.
The annual cost for delivery year 2025-26 from the recent T-1 auction and the previous T-4 auction in 2021-22 is £1.45bn (excluding prior multi-year contracts and inflationary adjustment). Despite a lower clearing price in the T-1 auction, this is a 44% increase from the year before, due to the substantial uplift in the T-4 clearing price (£12.59/kW).
Consumers can also expect to see further increases in the future delivery years, driven by substantial uplifts to T-4 clearing prices (see the chart above).
Technically oil and gas are free as well, it’s just the “greedy” landowner who charges you for setting up the necessary extraction equipment. Oh but wait, wind and solar does nor require space right?
Just waiting for the day when some government idiot lays claim on wind and sunlight haha there goes your “free” Nick.
Nick also neglects the environmental cost of wind and solar.
The manufacturing uses all sort of toxic chemicals which end up in toxic sludge lakes.
Coal and gas require zero toxic chemicals.
During installation and use, wind and solar decimate wildlife.. avian land and ocean
Coal and gas release much needed CO2 which feeds the planets wildlife
At the end of their short intermittent lifespan, wind turbines and solar panels end up in huge toxic-leaching landfills,
Coal mines are refurbished to quality usable land or lakes..
Coal and Gas are magnitudes more environmentally sustainable than wind and solar
The quantification is easy to have a good guess at.
EVERY country with a significant amount of wind and solar and following Net-Zero stupidity…
… has sky-rocketing electricity prices!
That’s because power companies are greedy and are taking all the cost savings for themselves.
The solution is of course for government to take over the generation of power. That way electricity can be free for everybody. At least that’s what the socialists tell us.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in our Universities who would take your post at face value.
A lot of voters in NYC as well.
No it’s not. They use more fossil fuel to manufacture, install, firm, remove and recycle than they produce. And these fossil fuels are not free even in China where all the stuff is made.
The fuel is free.
All fuel is free. You are being deliberately mendacious.
All fuel is free. You are being deliberately mendacious.
Let’s see what that ‘free’ fuel cost us just yesterday:
https://wastedwind.energy/2025-08-05
That’s just the bit we discarded. You need to add the subsidies on exports (of 4.2GWh net) that British consumers will pay as well as the subsidy inclusive cost over what we actually used. But the curtailment cost of over £19m over actual wind production of 377GWh is a cost of £51/MWh of wind supplied in toto.
Nick is nothing if not repetitive. I guess his handlers aren’t paying him to actually think for himself.
Just included $99.95 for shipping and handling.
And 3 box tops.
Fish are also free. It’s catching them and transporting them to the people who want to eat them that gets expensive.
Nick, you keep saying this, and you keep citing various numbers which don’t show what you claim they show. The fuel bill is only one item in the total cost picture. You cannot just take it and assume that it is the driver. That is not financial analysis. You have to show it is.
There is one way, and only one way, to show that wind and solar are cost effective. That is, you compare two systems. One is conventional with no wind or solar. The other is with your chosen amount of wind and solar added.
The outputs for the two systems must be identical, supply of a given amount of power with the same reliability, consistency, controllability etc.
For both you write down the full costs by year. You then apply the Net Present Value formula found in all spreadsheets, and you get the NPV of the systems.
This is the only way to do the comparison. LCOE is nonsense. What you have done elsewhere, compare the total spend on gas in the UK with the contract to remedy wind and/or solar intermittency, also shows nothing. Comparing prices shows nothing.
Your claim is basically that adding wind and/or solar to a conventional system lowers the total cost. The only valid measure of total cost is system NPV, and you have repeatedly failed to either do or point to any analysis showing that on this basis adding wind and solar pays.
My conclusion is simple: do it, point to it, or stop making these silly claims. If it could be done, you or someone else would surely have done it by now. That they have not is a good indication that its inconveniently not true.
The classic counter argument. Your argument would equally show sailing ships must be cheaper cargo vessels than steamships. After all, the wind is free. Its not a valid argument, as this example shows. The other costs overwhelm the free.
That is all he has, except a few nits to pick.
The cost of fuel is one of the smallest components when running a fossil fuel power plant.
Beyond that, when fossil fuel plants are on standby because the government requires power companies to buy renewable power when it’s available, the amount of fuel consumed drops very little if at all.
The wind and sunshine are free. The cost of generating electricity from their low density energy is GIGANTIC.
Everyplace where significant wind and solar has been added to the grid, electricity prices have gone UP AND UP AND UP. It has never been, is not, and never will be cheaper to generate electricity with wind and solar.
It’s the same old song forever.
Robbery, assault and battery…
Gas is also free. It’s just that instead of erecting a wind turbine or solar panel you have to drill a well to extract it. That can be done at far lower cost per MWh of energy supplied with the advantage that supply is easily varied to match demand. You don’t waste gas you can’t use. You have it when you need it.
And there he goes again, spouting really stupid stuff as if he actually knew what he was talking about.
As the old saying goes, all forms of energy are free. What costs is converting that energy into something useful.
For wind and solar, that cost is by far the largest of any form of energy.
This has been explained to Nick dozens of times, but since his paycheck requires him to not understand it, he still refuses to.
First off, at a minimum, you have to build 5 times as much wind and solar as you might need, because they are available only about 20% of the time. Worse, the times they aren’t available are random. Fossil fuel on the other hand is available about 90 to 95% of the time and the times they are unavailable (maintenance) are scheduled months in advance. Usually for the times when demand is the lowest.
Secondly, when you use fossil as a backup for ruinables, you need to keep the fossil power plants on either warm or hot standby. This means they are burning almost as much fuel as they would have, had they been providing all the power. Also, the number of people needed to operate and perform maintenance is the same as if they were providing all of the power.
The end result is that you end up paying for 6 times the power you need. (5X for wind/solar, plus 1X for fossil.)
Nick – Along with errors I mentioned above regarding cost errors in Jacobson’s study.
the cost of intermittency and stability caused by WWS are borne by the fossil fuel plants (and hydro). Those costs are high. The major deficiencies of WWS are subsidized by the fossil fuel plants.
The fuel is free.
But fuel isn’t the only cost. Backup and batteries aside, what is the typical average cost per GWh over the entire lifetime of the plant, including all construction, connection, and decommissioning costs, compared to the same metric for coal or gas plants? (After that, we absoultely MUST consider batteries since I think we agree that they’re absolutely necessary)
“The fuel is free” – here we go again Nick.
Please tell me why the Seagreen Offshore wind farm in the North Sea had its output constrained 71% of the time in 2024 which meant that 3.3TWhs of the 4.7TWhs it generated was discarded at a cost to electricity payers of £65m.
In its short lifetime to the end of 2024 it had been paid £104m for generating and £262m to switch off. That is pretty expensive “free energy” in my book.
All fuel is free. In every case you just have to pay the cost of developing and delivering it in a usable form. The earth never charges for the oil, gas, uranium or or coal. Or sunshine. Politicians may make you pay fees, but otherwise it is all free.
Have you ever wondered why no one uses sailing ships today, apart from amateur yachtsmen? After all, wind is free, isn’t it?
Wind and Solar spend more time Unproductive than they do producing power.
Wind is only available, within the goldilocks zone, 40% of the year. 60% of the year not so much.
Solar is only available (at anywhere near nameplate) 4 hours a day. 20 hours a day not so much…and 12 hours a day (night time) not at all. This is only during Summer, in Winter their capability decreases even further like it does at higher latitudes.
The only thing low cost about them is their low density fuel source which you can’t “add more” if needed. And the main thing “Cheap” about them is their Chinese Manufacturing Standards.
You can’t blow on a wind turbine and make it spin if nature decides to still the wind.
You can’t add more sunshine on solar panels at night after sundown. Neither can be depended upon to be available during peak demand so battery storage is necessary, very expensive and potentially explosive battery storage.
Then there’s that nagging problem of their inherent lack of Bad Weather resilience and poor longevity.
“There is no serious intellectual defence for the prospect we’d meet net-zero targets in 2050,” Mr Morrison said.
“It is simply impossible, even if we had the right investment.”
He told the forum that the transition to a fully renewable grid was only being propelled by increasingly generous state and federal subsidies.
“Forcibly intubated and resuscitated by government subsidies,” he said.
“It shows what it looks like to have a resuscitated zombie coming to life, the dead starting to walk again.”
Diggers and Dealers panel questions Australia’s energy future and emissions target
It’s like this numpties when you move from some of the cheapest energy in the world to the dearest-
China move could wipe out Aussie towns
Australia shows the way with “renewable” electricity. The NEM achieved its maximum monthly average generation in July 2008 with 25.5GW average for the month. This July the average was down to 24.4GW. So grossly increased capital expenditure to serve a diminishing market.
One of the realities in the Australia market is the average household cost for electricity has declined over the past 7 years despite huge price rises. The reason is that some households do not pay anything for electricity and many very little. For a small capital investment, that option is available to every roof owner.
The electricity system is now a case of those who own a roof can avoid the exposure to the increasing cost of grid power; leaving those who cannot afford a roof of their own to be stuck with the lions share of the costs.
Industry is all but dead. There is a good chance the Tomago smelter in NSW and the Boyne smelter in Queensland will see their last summer this coming summer – both have zero book value. Loss of this base load will reduce the NEM demand by almost 2GW. So higher cost to be spread across even fewer consumers.
AI data centres cannot be run on wind and solar generation so thet technology will be lost to Australia. Australia will continue to mine iron ore, coal and gas for export to Asia.
Chinese interests backing the Labor grid wind and solar projects will not get what they hope for – wealth in old age through impost on Australian electricity consumers. Households will increasingly abandon the grid. Sane governments will walk away from the contracts.
Australia shows the way with “renewable” electricity. The NEM achieved its maximum monthly average generation in July 2008 with 25.5GW average for the month. This July the average was down to 24.4GW.
Yes but every evening when the sun is absent the NEM grid shows it’s running up to 85% on fossil fuels with the balance largely legacy Snowy Hydro. There’s some minimal 1% battery output with wind contributing as low as 3%. The average adult human has one large boob and a testicle as they say.
Subsidies to buy and install, plus power companies are mandated to pay many times more than it is worth, for the power produced.
Yes, you are getting cheap power, but you are stealing from your neighbors in order to get it.
It’s only “low-cost” if you don’t count the heavy subsidies, high external costs, and the war on carbon making the cost of fossil fuels skyrocket, making them expensive by comparison.
Nah you gotta slap em up and worry about the costs later-
An estimated 4 million solar panels will reach their end-of-life in 2025 | Watch
although the natives are getting pernicketty-
Fury over plans to build huge solar farm on idyllic countryside made famous by The Vicar of Dibley
“In the U.S., the Energy Information Administration (EIA) makes the same mistake.”
Trump hasn’t shut it down— yet? Or at least get it to sing a new song.
Unfortunately, too many Republicans still like that Green pork.
The truly tragic thing for the UK is that successive governments, Labour and Conservative, have bought into the claim that wind and solar are cheaper than conventional. You have the impression that the entire political class of the UK took degrees in liberal arts subjects and then moved directly into government without learning anything about accounting or financial management. Or energy.
They then colluded in spreading all the costs of the move to W+S across lots of areas of the economy, making them hard to track. And the great national puzzle is how come they are using such a cheap method of generation, but prices are so high? How come, they were on the verge of blackouts last winter, when this is supposed to increase system reliability and energy independence?
It must be all the gas they are not using, they conclude. That must be driving prices up.
Why didn’t I think of that?
After the EPA 2009 CO2 Endangerment Finding is rescinded, what ever will Mad Ed do?
I doubt Mad Ed will even notice, since the US EPA holds little sway with Great Britain.
Your impression of politicians turns out to be about 95% accurate.
Not a single real number in the whole piece. Contrarians keep insisting that renewables are more expensive “just ’cause,” but can’t produce any data actually showing that.
Poor Alan, he keeps holding onto his slender reed.
Even when numbers are presented, he invents one ludicrous excuse or another to ignore them.
But Mark can’t offer a single anecdote or citation. The abject failure of the contrarian set to offer any substantiation whatsoever rears its ugly head again.
How about my electricity bill? If Wind and Solar are so cheap, why am I paying so much?
I see that Alan is still trying to pretend that reality is not a valid example.
Here’s some real costs showing what GB consumers have been paying for wind against the wholesale market prices said to be dominated by gas. Even at the height of the energy crisis the average cost of wind billed to consumers was higher than the has based wholesale price.
I find that US estimates of Productivity of Weather Dependent “Renewables” often seem to be wildly optimistic.
These are recorded figure for the EU(27)+UK in 2024 a fairly poor year for Renewables
productivity / capacity % EU(27)+UK
Onshore Wind 22.8%
Offshore Wind 29.7%
Wind combined 23.8%
Solar PV 11.0%
combined “Renewables” productivity 16.8%
These low values mean that Renewables are really expensive as means of power production.
You may be interested in these posts
https://edmhdotme.wpcomstaging.com/minimal-future-warming-from-co2-ch4-n2o/
https://edmhdotme.wpcomstaging.com/analysis-of-renewable-power-de-uk-fr-in-the-context-of-europe-2024/
https://edmhdotme.wpcomstaging.com/comparing-power-generation-technologies-2/
https://edmhdotme.wpcomstaging.com/a-few-graphs-say-it-all-for-renewables/
https://edhoskins.substack.com
I am a member of the CO2 coalition based in France
Please be in contact if I can provide you with useful supporting data and other information
Best Regards Ed Hoskins
You can readily the essence of the FT article about rationing in the Netherlands here
https://www.climatedepot.com/2025/07/14/netherlands-rations-electricity-to-ease-power-grid-stresses-as-it-shifts-to-greener-economy-early-indicator-of-what-other-european-countries-are-likely-to-suffer-trying-to-meet-the-bloc/
The Mail has a surpringly good article
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-14903553/Netherlands-RATIONS-electricity-country-struggles-cope-turning-away-gas-green-policies-expert-warns-Britain-trouble.html
I dreamed.
It was 1840 in the UK. Mill owners, both flour and textile, had moved from water driven machinery to steam. Somehow Nick Stokes had come back in time too. He was addressing a gathering of mill owners in a large theater.
‘You have made a terrible mistake’, said Nick. You are spending a fortune on coal to fuel your mills. Whereas before you were using water, and it was free, it just fell as the gentle rain from Heaven, there were no fuel costs at all! It must have been so much cheaper. Go back to water, move back to the valleys where the streams were and are, and you will profit!’
There was a large muttering in the audience. raucous laughter, cries of ‘who let this guy in here?’
And then I woke up.
Just where is it that people’s energy bills have gone down because of “renewables”?
Only in the fantasy land where AlanJ and Nick Stokes live.
Negative grid pricing says it all. Energy that is produced out of sync with demand has negative value and you have to pay other utilities to take it. Its market value is less than zero. The cost of production is irrelevant. The disposal cost has to be added on. There would be no market for current renewables without government mandates.
Yes, this is one of the many fallacies with LCOE. As usually done it assumes that all power generated is the same. Whereas when its produced but cannot be used it should not be counted as production at all. Still less when it has, as you say, negative value!
Very nice Johnathan. If renewables are so much cheaper than conventional then we have to find the scoundrels who are charging us so much more at the meter. Remove all wind and solar from the grid.
If wind and solar were as cheap as it’s advocates claim, then power companies would be lining up to build them. You wouldn’t need government subsidies and mandates.
The core belief of all socialists is that government always knows best and listening to people who actually do the work is a waste of time.