Of Emissions and CO2

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach (still banned from X aka Twitter, see here)

The most excellent reef and ocean scientist Jennifer Marohasy put up a Facebook post recently on the lack of much effect on the atmosphere CO2 levels from the 2020 emissions drop due to COVID. She says this shows human CO2 emissions have very little effect on atmospheric CO2 levels. However, I fear her graph is greatly misleading.

The problem is that she is showing the full range of two related but very different variables. Let me see if I can clear up the confusion.

To begin with, we need to change the CO2 emissions to parts per million by volume (ppmv) of CO2. To do that, we need to divide the gigatonnage (billions of tonnes) of CO2 by 7.81 gigatonnes of CO2 emissions per each 1 ppmv increase.

Next, we need to account for the fact that the earth is constantly absorbing and sequestering CO2. I find there’s an excellent fit to be had by using the following procedure. The underlying assumption is that every year, a certain small percentage of “excess” airborne CO2 is being sequestered by natural processes, with the rest of prior emissions remaining in the air. What is “excess CO2“? Well, it is the amount in excess of some undetermined baseline, which we expect to be on the order of the historical value of about 285 ppmv.

So I set up an Excel spreadsheet to use Solver to search for the value of the unknown percentage which remains after the ongoing sequestration, as well as the value of the unknown baseline, that give the best fit to the actual airborne CO2. You can download my spreadsheet here, it’s only 23 kbytes. I get the following values:

Unknown baseline: best fit = 286.8 ppmv

Given that the fitting process could have come up with a very wide range of values, that is a very good indication that atmospheric CO2 levels are indeed related to human emissions.

Unknown percentage remaining after each year’s sequestration: best fit = 98.1%

And here is what those values give as a result. Remember, I’m calculating the best fit of human emissions to the actual airborne CO2 values using just two fitted variables—the amount remaining after annual sequestration, and the pre-industrial baseline.

Now, on my planet at least, that’s a very good fit. At all points, it’s within 1.5 ppmv of observations, and the R2 of the estimate and the observations is 0.997

A couple of comments on that. First, for a two-parameter fit between emissions and CO2 level, with one of the fitted parameters coming out very near the expected value, that seems clear evidence that the rise in CO2 levels is MAINLY a result of human emissions.

I say “mainly” because as you note, the observed CO2 level goes both above and below the estimate. I assume this is because of changes in both emissions and sequestration rates.

Now, as you can see, Jennifer is right that the estimate for the time of the dip due to COVID is slightly below the actual values. How much? The largest difference is the year after COVID, when observations are a whopping 0.7 ppmv above the value estimated from the emissions … be still my beating heart.

However, the same is true during a number of periods in the record.

Why doesn’t the COVID drop make much difference? Four reasons.

First, the e-folding time “tau” for the slow decay of a pulse of CO2 is ~ 50 years, so any year is greatly affected by the previous years.

Second, the drop in the emissions was small, only about 5%. Such small changes occur throughout the emissions record, and are smoothed over by the natural process of sequestration.

Third, the emissions dip was short, only one year long, with the next year returning to normal amounts.

Fourth, there are other factors at play, changes in natural emissions and sequestrations.

In closing, folks may ask about “tau”, the time constant being only 50 years when the scientific solons say excess CO2 remains in the air for hundreds and hundreds of years. So are they correct? Well … yes …and no. Excess CO2 remains, just not very much. Given the annual decay rate calculated above, .981, here’s how that plays out for the excess carbon.

(Yes, I know that’s different from what the standard “Bern Model” of CO2 sez … see my post on that model, including the previous post linked therein.)

My best wishes to Jennifer Marohasy despite her claims in this one case—she’s a most valuable and insightful scientist.

==========

Me, I’m not only in the very remote Solomon Islands near the Equator, north of Australia, where I worked for eight most wonderful years. I’m in the even more remote Western Province of the Solos, chewing betel nut with lime and leaf, and having a great time. I also, for the first time in three weeks, have reasonable Internet. Why?

My friend with whom I’m staying has Starlink. So for all you Elon haters out there, he’s done a huge service for mankind.

Best of the South Pacific to all, going scuba diving tomorrow, back to the US next week.

w.

AS IS MY CUSTOM, I ask that when you comment you quote the EXACT WORDS you are discussing. It avoids endless misunderstandings.

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Andrew St John
April 4, 2025 6:09 pm

Hi Willis,
Jennifer Marohasy – Scientist, Author and Speaker
Thanks for a great article.

SCInotFI
April 4, 2025 6:19 pm

More ‘ammo’ for my arguments with CC cultists – thank you!

Robert Cutler
Reply to  SCInotFI
April 6, 2025 10:49 am

I disagree, There are two major problems that I see that would provide ammo to CC cultists.

First, Marohasyis’ plot shows annual CO2 concentration ([CO2]) data that has had seasonal variations removed. The 1-year moving average used to de-seasonalize the data would have attenuated and time-dispersed any COVID caused change in [CO2] — if any.

Second, Willis failed to account for changes in [CO2] due to changes in temperature, which makes his calculations suspect. Even CC cultists will admit that increasing temperature causes an increase in [CO2], primarily because they have to admit that [CO2] lags ENSO.

I’ve estimated the dynamic sensitivity to be 4.9ppm/°C over 10 year periods and 2.8ppm/°C over ~3 year periods. This is not enough to account for the long-term trends, which allows for both anthropogenic contributions and long-term accumulation. The declining sensitivity with frequency suggests accumulation is a factor.

comment image

Accumulation can be seen here as there is a second-order relationship between linear temperature and 2nd-order [CO2] e,g, the x^2 term comes from integrating x. It’s also worth pointing out that the 1984 Mauna Loa eruption does appear to have have corrupted CO2 data, but there’s no discernible effect on temperature.

comment image

Using a linear detrend of ln([CO2]) instead of a second-order detrend is less convincing.

comment image

Michael Flynn
April 4, 2025 6:24 pm

Willis, all very interesting – but completely pointless.

During the last four and a half billion years, CO2 and H2O levels have varied dramatically. If you accept that the surface was molten when the Earth was created, it has obviously cooled quite a lot.

Adding CO2 to air does not make it hotter. A colder atmosphere cannot raise the temperature of a hotter surface.

The GHE is just nonsense, and does not even have a consistent and unambiguous description.

You wrote –

However, I fear her graph is greatly misleading

Who cares? Does it make any difference at all to a single fact?

Sorry Willis, but your opinion has as much value as Jennifer Marohazy’s. Nil, unless supported by experiment.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 4, 2025 9:17 pm

Michael, I didn’t say ONE WORD about temperature, about CO2 heating the earth, about a colder atmosphere leaving the earth warmer than if it didn’t exist, or about the GHE. None of it. I was clearing up the confusion regarding Jennifer Marohazy’s post.

Willis, I didn’t say you did, did I? I accept that you aren’t a GHE believer, because that would be stupid.

That’s why I said your comment was pointless.

You wrote –

She says this shows human CO2 emissions have very little effect on atmospheric CO2 levels.

There doesn’t seem to be much “confusion” to be “cleared up” here. Who was confused? You? Me? If anybody was confused by Jennifer’s comment, they could ask her for clarification. She offered an opinion, you offer yours.

Your comment

Let me see if I can clear up the confusion.

seems just a tad patronising, not to say completely irrelevant.

Given that you agree that adding CO2 to air does not make it hotter, of course. You do agree with me, don’t you?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 1:54 am

Willis, this is you “clearing up the confusion” –

So are they correct? Well … yes …and no

That’s certainly cleared that up, hasn’t it? Sorry, Willis, but you sound like a petulant GHE believer, trying to sound impressive, while saying nothing of use.

I’m not sure about what you think my “pet peeves” are, or what “off-topic hatred” you are babbling about. I have to laugh at you saying

AS IS MY CUSTOM, I ask that when you comment you quote the EXACT WORDS you are discussing.,

when you are obviously too hypocritical to do unto others as you would have them do unto you!

But hey, if you want to carry on like a schoolyard bully, go your hardest. Others can form their own opinions of course, but so far you look like just another deluded GHE acolyte to me.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 4:03 pm

Michael, clearly you think I give a flying fark about your opinion.

Willis, why would you think that?

You are a bit strange. You accept that adding CO2 to air does not make it hotter, and that a colder atmosphere cannot raise the temperature of a hotter surface (feel free to correct me if I have read your mind incorrectly), but you challenge someone’s opinion about atmospheric CO2 for no reason at all!

Willis, clearly you think I give a flying fark about your opinion. All the opinions you’ve had in your life, plus $5 cash, will buy you a $5 cup of coffee.

Opine away.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:58 pm

No answers, then?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:50 pm

Einstein said –

If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself.”

I don’t blame you for refusing to get an intellectual flogging from a six year old.

Corrigenda
Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 5, 2025 1:49 am

Michael, it is time you read properly before commenting. Statements like, “I didn’t say you did, did I?” when you have already opened up the very topic are just scientifically nonsensical.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Corrigenda
April 5, 2025 4:43 pm

scientifically nonsensical.

Really? Are you talking about “climate science” or some other type of science?

Willis is excellent at describing what he didn’t say, but strangely reticent when asked to say something definite. Ah well, there are always people like you, ready to attempt to defend the indefensible.



Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 5, 2025 2:52 pm

Michael,

Don’t get in too deep with him.

He may still have access to the WUWT database, and (as he did with me) may use that info to research you, say nasty things about cousins you have never met, or try to find other disparaging things to hit you with….

Michael Flynn
Reply to  DonM
April 5, 2025 4:14 pm

Don, Willis is obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

In my opinion, he is an ignorant pretentious buffoon, and luckily for him, he considers my opinion of him of no value, so it won’t upset him at all.

He may disparage away to his heart’s content. Try to get Willis to support his “Steel Greenhouse” fantasy, and you’ll see why I can’t be bothered getting upset, annoyed or offended. He turns to water and scuttles away when faced with facts.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:22 pm

Willis, I noticed that at some time you wrote –

 [Clarification added] Note that the distance from the shell to the planet is greatly exaggerated. In reality, it is close enough to the planet that the difference in the areas can be neglected in practice.

Well, no it can’t, you fool, here’s what you said as well –

For an earth-sized planet with a shell two kilometers above the surface everywhere, the difference in area is only six-hundredths of one percent. This assumption makes no difference to the argument presented.).

You obviously don’t understand that argument has nothing to do with fact. The difference in area you refer to means that it is impossible for the outer shell to radiate as much as the inner shell per unit area.

In other words, it is at a lower temperature – as it must be, being farther away from the source of heat. So your nonsense about “no difference” shows that you don’t understand physics, mathematics, or both.

Now it doesn’t matter how close the temperature of the cooler shell is to the hotter, it still cannot raise the temperature of something hotter than itself. For example, it doesn’t matter how close ice is to water’s freezing point, it still can’t be used to warm the water.

Maybe you can unleash a torrent of invective, instead of admitting that you have fooled yourself – yet again.

You can ignore the laws of physics if you like. It makes no difference – you still cannot raise the temperature of a hotter object using the radiated energy from a colder one. Not even a tiny bit.

You repeat your error time after time, never stopping to consider that you might not be quite as bright as you thought, and the laws of thermodynamics apply to the real world.

Go and defend your contention that a slightly cooler body can radiate at the same intensity as a hotter one! Or just throw another juvenile hissy fit, if you like.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 10:04 pm

Here’s what you wrote –

I have defended the Steel Greenhouse article over and over and over. What are you smoking?

I’m happy to do it again. Please QUOTE what you disagree with in that post and SHOW us why it’s wrong.

Obviously, you were lying, and not at all happy to defend your silly fantasy. No surprise there.

Here’s your “defense” –

Pass. First Rule Of Pig Wrestling applies.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:57 pm

Willis, I have. You don’t want to accept reality, so you “pass”.

Good for you!

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 6:56 am

“I have defended the Steel Greenhouse article over and over and over.”

No you haven’t. You have repeated your arrogant ignorant nonsense over and over and over. That’s not quite the same thing, is it? What do you think “radiation” means, Willis?

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 7, 2025 6:01 am

What happened to “I choose my words carefully, and can defend them”? Just another of your damned lies, Willis?

No, we are not pigs. Or horses. Or pond scum. Or ankle-biting vermin. You are a psychopath, and a narcissist, not to mention a hypocrite and a liar – that of course not being a comprehensive list of your reprehensible pathologies. I would have banned you from X for behaving like that too.

Here is Graham’s Hierarchy of Argument. You have fallen off the bottom. Move up.

Paul-Graham_Debate-Pyramid-1692607919.9194
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 10, 2025 10:32 am

Doubling down on the psychopathic narcissistic hypocritical lying, then, with all the apparent brainpower and maturity of a six-year-old. If it’s all you know, then it’s all you know. But who taught you to behave like this? Was it The Captain? They say the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree…

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 12, 2025 6:30 am

“The Captain, like me, was far too smart”

But was he smart enough to avoid swimming out of his lane into a field in which he had no training and nowhere near enough brainpower to grasp, then publish hundreds of pages of drivel, arrogantly and narcisisstically lie about his abilities and his own honesty, and psychopathically insult everyone who knew better and told him he was being an idiot? Did he teach you to do that, or did you come up with that “brillant” plan all by yourself?

I think he would be spinning in his grave to see the mess you’ve made of his presumably formerly respectable family name.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 13, 2025 6:49 am

That’s what a three-year-old would say. By all means keep it up! I’m sure your remaining six five equally untutored fans adore your efforts.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:24 pm

Willis, what mental defect causes you to think that anyone would seek “answers” from you?

Sorry, Willis, you cannot raise the temperature of a hotter object using the energy from a colder one.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 11:29 pm

I’ll repeat – Sorry, Willis, you cannot raise the temperature of a hotter object using the energy from a colder one

You are obviously more suited to pig wrestling than science.

Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 6, 2025 8:43 am

<i>Sorry, Willis, you cannot raise the temperature of a hotter object using the energy from a colder one.</i>
Every object with a temperature above 0 K radiates. An hotter or cooler (does not matter) object that receives this radiation has to raise its temperature to compensate for the received energy.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Dirk Visser
April 6, 2025 4:52 pm

Dirk,

Try to make water warmer using ice.

You have obviously not thought this through, have you?

Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 8, 2025 12:29 am

Michael,

The situation is about a heat fluxes. If an object has no internal heat source it will cool more slowly when it receives radiation from other objects. If an object has an internal heat source (and a constant surface temperature) it has to raise its surface temperature when it receives radiation from other objects.

Reply to  Dirk Visser
April 8, 2025 3:04 am

If an object has an internal heat source (and a constant surface temperature) it has to raise its surface temperature when it receives radiation from other objects.”

Huh? So if I take a small smoldering coal from one fire (fire2) and place it near a large smoldering coal from fire1, the temperature of the coal from fire1 will go up?



Michael Flynn
Reply to  Dirk Visser
April 8, 2025 4:27 pm

The situation is about a heat fluxes. If an object has no internal heat source it will cool more slowly when it receives radiation from other objects. If an object has an internal heat source (and a constant surface temperature) it has to raise its surface temperature when it receives radiation from other objects.

You might need to reconsider your English expression. Here’s why –

The Earth has a massive internal heat source, radiogenic heat equivalent to more than 500,000 Hiroshima atomic bombs, per annum. Oh, as well as enough remnant heat from a rocky ball which was once molten throughout.

However, it has cooled, and continues to do so. Step outside at night, and you will discover that the surface temperature is dropping, not rising, in spite of the radiation from the colder atmosphere above it.

Your knowledge of the physics of insulation seems about as scanty as your knowledge of physics in general.

You talk about “receiving radiation”, but it is obvious you don’t understand what you are saying. An example of where you are confused is the result of dropping ice cubes into hot soup. The soup cools, in spite of having received an increase of heat energy from the ice (which is radiating infrared continuously, whether you accept reality or not).

In any case, an object does not “[have] to raise its surface temperature”. An object above absolute zero has a temperature, which may go up, down, or remain as is.

There is no consistent and unambiguous description of the GHE, so hopefully you are not trying to imply the existence of something you can’t even describe.

Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 6, 2025 12:56 pm

Sorry, Willis, you cannot raise the temperature of a hotter object using the energy from a colder one.

No but you can make the hotter object cool more slowly. And then warming happens from the energy from the sun in the case of the GHE.

We’ve been through this in detail in other threads and yet somehow you can’t or won’t grasp the idea. You’re the very definition of confirmation bias.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
April 6, 2025 4:54 pm

No but you can make the hotter object cool more slowly.

Which is not heating, of course. That’s why the Earth is cooling very slowly.

April 4, 2025 6:27 pm

At my age, I am allowed to say, I do not quite follow the details, but I get the overall picture.
.
Nature has very large flows of CO2, of which human flows are only a very small part, so when the human flows goes down by 5%, due to COVID, then that is only a small part of a small part.
.
CO2 ppm is an essential life gas to create more flora and fauna and increase crop yields to feed 8 billion people.
.
Net zero to reduce CO2 by 2050 is a super-expensive suicide pact, to foster command/control by the elites to screw all others by using the foghorn of the government-controlled Corporate Media.
.
Enjoy the Solomons. You deserve it.

Jeff Alberts
April 4, 2025 6:31 pm

Willis, you’re really better off not being on X, or any social media. They’re all just cesspools of people hating each other.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 4, 2025 7:58 pm

Yes but X blocking users doesn’t count as censorship. The moment you sign up to their terms you give them the right to block your account for whatever reason they like. Plus of course Elon Musk has a long history of blocking accounts that annoy governments where he wants to do business along with journalists who are critical of him. So any claim that he wants to uphold freedom of speech should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

If you want freedom of speech then you should start with net neutrality which the current US government is trying to get rid of. It allows everyone to publish their own websites that anyone else can read at the same cost as accessing larger websites. It allows competitors like bluesky to start and to grow.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
April 4, 2025 9:37 pm

BlueSky looks like its a “safe space” for woke ultra-leftists who can’t face realistic arguments that can now be had on X.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Izaak Walton
April 5, 2025 5:52 am

It allows competitors like bluesky to start and to grow.

Despite that obvious disadvantage, I still support net neutrality, izzy!

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 1:13 pm

This sounds like virtue signalling — “See, my voice must be so important that X censors me!”

If he comments on X in the same emotional state that he uses here amongst friends at WUWT, it is no wonder that he is blocked.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:45 pm

So instead of going to your stock of sick fantasies about what you imagine I said, please tell me EXACTLY what was wrong with what I ACTUALLY said.

I’ll wait …

It seems that X knows EXACTLY what was wrong, and also what you ACTUALLY said. It doesn’t matter what you or anyone else thinks, if you got “blocked”, it happened.

Take a teaspoon of cement and harden up. Or have a tantrum, if you like.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:33 pm

The tantrum won.

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 7, 2025 2:29 pm

w. ==> “Violating our” [X’s] “rules against abuse and harassment”.

You were abusing and harassing another X user (about your [mis]understanding of his religion).

This is far worse than I thought, which was that you were just commenting and replying the way you do here at WUWT.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 10, 2025 3:05 pm

Re

The full story is here. I trust people will see through your bogus attack.

The problem looks to me to be it was an attack on an individual. So for example the bible says

Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”

And assuming you’re Christian, if I was to ask you how you explained your support of murdering adulterers then how would you respond? Or would you simply complain to Anthony to have me banned?

The downvotes on this post will indicate how people feel about having their religion attacked and being unable to defend a factual statement especially when the intention is seen to denigrate its followers.

In fact the statement is to show the level of anger generated and ask the question of what actually is hate speech and whether it perhaps applies in your case.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 10, 2025 4:54 pm

The part you seem to be missing is that Christians have not killed adulterers in a couple thousand years, DESPITE what the Bible says.

And why is that?

Because its not about the text, its about how the individual interprets and follows the text. In other words, the Bible itself is just as bad as the Quran as written, but its the followers’ actions that are the difference.

Your attack was against and individual based on the religion. I’m pretty sure my logic holds here because I’m not saying you agree to murder for adultery, I’m asking how you support it in your religion where its approved if not practiced.

And that’s the difference.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 11, 2025 2:28 pm

Tim, if it is not practiced, which you agree on, why on earth would I have to support it?

You’re completely missing the point I’m making. Completely. You took a day to reply and that’s credit to you because I’d expected a fast and very pointed reply.

And my point was going to be that you’d very probably class my post as hate speech and then you have your answer first hand as to why you were banned from X.

I still think that’s why you were banned because not everyone has any sense of self control especially when it comes to being attacked for their beliefs.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 11, 2025 6:27 pm

I TOLD YOU I wouldn’t class your question as hate speech.

No you didn’t. saying “I’m not a Christian. I’m a follower of Christ. And I’m happy to explain why” is not classifying my speech in any way.

Again, I appeal to you and others to read my post on the subject.

This is the Willis, I know. Even though I’ve been as clear as possible about the purpose of my posts in this thread to make you angry about having his beliefs attacked, you still think its about religion.

Finally, I ASKED A QUESTION. He was free to push the “Block” button if he didn’t wish to answer. Instead I got banned.

He didn’t ban you. He reported you and someone else looked at what you said and banned you based on their assessment of the content.

Loren Wilson
April 4, 2025 7:42 pm

While the math here looks solid, I approach this from a chemical equilibrium point of view. In chemistry, a reaction is in equilibrium when the rate of the forward reaction is equal to the rate of the reverse reaction. For CO2, there is no one reaction but many. However, there was an overall rate of production of CO2 that was approximately equal to the rate of consumption. Le Chatlier proposed a principle that a system at equilibrium when disturbed will adjust to re-establish a new equilibrium. This is proven in most of chemistry. For CO2, a small change in production (we are about 5% of the natural production) should produce a relatively small change in the equilibrium concentrations. However, if 285 ppm was the equilibrium concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, than a small change by human activity would move the equilibrium concentration of CO2 up a few ppm, not 120 ppm or so we have observed since the mid-twentieth century. If the system is so sensitive to a small change in CO2 production, then the ecosystem would swing wildly rather than the relatively muted changes over the Earth’s history. After all, the much higher concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere would make several chemical reactions happen faster. Reaction rates are usually dependent on the concentration, sometimes to the square of the concentration depending on the stoichiometry of the reaction. These faster rates of consumption should moderate the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere yet they do not appear to be doing so according to this model. the absorption of CO2 by the ocean is well-modeled and the rates have been measured. I am puzzled that this basic reaction has not sped up commensurately with the increase in atmospheric concentration. Any atmospheric chemists out there to shed some light on this?

sherro01
Reply to  Loren Wilson
April 4, 2025 8:25 pm

Hi Loren,

Le Chatelier is a principle, lower status than a rule or law. Personally, I have not relied on its use in chemistry for all but general observances of trends that do not contradict it. Other chemists, of course, have varying degrees of attachment to it.
Geoff S

oeman50
Reply to  sherro01
April 5, 2025 4:57 am

Hi Geoff,

Not to pick nits, but Le Chatelier’s Principle is the underpinning of equilibria in chemistry. I have used it often.

Scissor
Reply to  Loren Wilson
April 5, 2025 5:18 am

It could be that while equilibrium processes are important locally over short periods, over wider areas and longer periods of time, CO2 in the atmosphere is not close to significantly approaching equilibrium in any important sense. Our man Dalton explained the situation better than Le Chatelier.

We could restrict our ruminations to the ocean atmosphere interface, and we might conclude that ocean physics and chemistry are most important because, all things being equal, there is nothing that would limit the atmospheric CO2 concentration from approaching 100% (Dalton again).

That’s not the case in the oceans. Chemistry would be more important with regard to equilibrium, but physics would be more important in kinetics. Our knowledge of the relevant ocean physical processes is elementary at best. The nature of dynamic chaotic systems limits our ability to understand this in any case.

With regard to reactions rates being dependent on concentrations, you correctly noted that this is “usually” the case. I would point out that it depends on the mechanism of the reaction, and further, it is possible for dominant factors to drive reactions to exhibit pseudo first order behavior. As a chemical scientist that has been involved in a broad range of research areas from analytical and atmospheric chemistry to zeolites, I’ve come to conclude that the role of pseudo first order effects often dominate a system.

It’s no stretch to suggest than nature, not mankind, rules the dominant factors.

don k
Reply to  Loren Wilson
April 5, 2025 8:03 am

Loren — You’re correct of course. But I think the key here MIGHT be that atmospheric CO2 is in equilibrium with dissolved CO2 in the oceans. There’s a lot of CO2 dissolved in the oceans. CO2, unlike virtually everything else we’re familiar with (cornstarch excepted) is less soluble in warm water than cold water, I’m pretty sure that those little bubbles you see when water approaches boiling are CO2 coming out of solution.

What I think might be going on is that the non-tropical oceans have been warming a bit over the last century and a half. Why? Some combination of natural warming, greenhouse, and maybe other things. When the ocean surface waters warm, CO2 is released into the atmosphere. And the equilibrium concentration of atmospheric CO2 increases,

Do I have data to back this theory up? Nope. Getting the data, understanding its limitations, putting it all together, and trying to match it to observations would take me months/years. I’d probably do it wrong. And separating out the natural/human/other components is not something I’d be likely to be good at. Assuming it can even be done.

Reply to  Loren Wilson
April 6, 2025 1:13 pm

I am puzzled that this basic reaction has not sped up commensurately with the increase in atmospheric concentration.

The reaction rate is limited by the fact the reaction only takes place at the boundary so we can’t expect large, fast changes in sequestration but the greening earth suggests the reaction rate has indeed sped up.

sherro01
April 4, 2025 8:21 pm

Hi Willis,
Do enjoy your time in the Southern hemisphere.
Re Mauna loa CO2 concentrations, soft scientists claim the analyses are like the gold standard for CO2 in the air, but hard scientists say there are problems of both accuracy and cherry picking.
Geoff S
Sorry, But Hard Science is Not Done This Way. – Watts Up With That?

Scissor
Reply to  sherro01
April 5, 2025 5:44 am

Yeah, as an example, NOAA’s use of significant figures is atrocious.

I once met a young man from NOAA that was proudly passing out vials of air that he had collected while in Antarctica. What made me sick to my stomach was his use of 5 significant figures for the CO2 concentration, something like 402.09 ppmv.

While I know and work with many people in this field, their real contribution to science is basically nil, which wouldn’t be so bad, except that billions of our tax dollars are used for this research. One might even argue that their impact on society is negative.

Selfishly, I’ve taken such government money, but my work has generated commercial products and created non-government jobs. I’m going for one grant right now and if I get it, then I’ll go for another follow on “phase 2” grant. Then, I’ll be out of that game.

Our institute had another townhall meeting this week and the mood could be described as dejected and disillusioned. The major theme from the director is that we should be telling “stories” to our elected representatives and should be participating in all activities to do so. The state of the stock market makes me equally happy.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Scissor
April 5, 2025 5:55 am

I once met a young man from NOAA…

There’s got to be a limerick in there somewhere!

Scissor
Reply to  Rich Davis
April 5, 2025 6:08 am

They should take similar samples in Nantucket.

Not funny, but on the other extreme (old man) I saw Mark Serreze the other day and he looks like death warmed over.

Reply to  Scissor
April 5, 2025 9:27 am

Climate science believes you can reduce measurement uncertainty by averaging and that you can increase resolution by averaging. The dominant memes are 1. all measurement uncertainty is random, Gaussian, and cancels and, 2. Numbers is just numbers.

don k
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2025 2:36 pm

Actually, averaging works quite well for statistical mechanics which deals with vast numbers of identical particles obeying simple physical laws. And it demonstrably usually works pretty well for short term weather forecasting. The problem for averaging climate model results is that they (almost) all turn out to run way too hot when the future becomes the past and actual observations can be compared with the predictions.

As Stephen Stills would have it, “Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.”

Reply to  don k
April 5, 2025 4:21 pm

For the situation that you describe, there is a reasonable expectation that the particles will have a Gaussian distribution and precision can be improved by averaging. However, if the measuring device used for characterizing the particles has a systematic bias, no amount of averaging can remove the bias. Thus, one will have an incorrect value of high precision.

Reply to  don k
April 6, 2025 6:54 am

The operative words here are “identical particles”. And even with identical particles you must have similar (hopefully identical) measurement devices, the same measuring protocols, and identical measurement environments if averaging is to provide you any kind of increased accuracy. Nothing can provide increased resolution except better measurement devices, averaging does nothing to increase resolution.

Nothing associated with measurements of weather or climate are “identical particles”. Yet climate science treats the measurements as such.

April 4, 2025 9:43 pm

Interesting how well CO2 levels respond to atmospheric temperatures.

Mid 2024 More Proof Temp Changes Drive CO2 Changes | Science Matters

Here’s my take, using ocean atmospheric temperatures..

CO2 rate of change spikes shortly after increases with the major El Nino, as settles to a slightly higher rate in line with the step change at El Nino events.

UAH-Ocean-v-del-paCO2
Reply to  bnice2000
April 5, 2025 7:20 am

Units of UAH are same On y-axis ? Seems unlikely…

Reply to  DMacKenzie
April 5, 2025 1:17 pm

You need to look at the comparison of the two two lines.

UAH is normalised to the same mean and deviation as ΔCO2 for that comparison purpose

April 4, 2025 11:11 pm

Hi Willis and to Jennifer who I have had the pleasure of meeting personally.

My two favourite thinkers.

A couple of picky points.

CO2 is expelled from liquids as the temperature of the liquid rises and absorbed when it cools.
As Dr Roy Spencer points out in his monthly blog the global temperature rises 0.15C/per decade.

The question then is how much this average global temperature rise affect the increase in atmospheric CO2?

The second picky point is that it is human activity in all its forms leads, in part, to the increase in CO2 emissions of the magic molecule.

Unfortunately, the dip in global temperatures around 1972 (who can forget the hysteria reported in the media of the pending ice age) predates most of the data bases used in these discussions.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 3:07 am

Somewhat on topic, how is the annual variability explained, the saw tooth on the Keeling curve?

1000012730
Reply to  David Pentland
April 5, 2025 3:10 am

Difference in % of ocean and land mass on the difference hemispheres.

Reply to  bnice2000
April 5, 2025 10:14 am

That affects the seasonal range, which is at a minimum at the South Pole and a maximum at in the Arctic.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 3:49 am

As the earth gets greener, say by 10-15% since 1980, you would expect that variation to increase by some amount, especially since at least part of it is from expanded agriculture with its regular grow/decay cycle. Yet from solely a visual inspection of the graph that doesn’t seem to be happening.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2025 6:24 am

The increase in variability is reduced due to changes of absorption rates of the oceans, per Henry’s Law

Jim Ross
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2025 6:26 am

Tim,

You are correct and indeed the growth in the seasonal cycle can be discerned over longer timescales at Mauna Loa. However, it is most obvious at more northern latitudes, where the cycle is largest. Look at the graph of PTB (Barrow, Alaska) here:

https://www.scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/graphics_gallery/other_stations/index.html

Incidentally, the seasonal cycle variations are consistent with the 13C/12C ratio for vegetation at around -26 per mil, whereas the longer term growth reflects a net value of -13 per mil (including the Law Dome data since around 1750).

Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 5, 2025 7:16 pm

Part of what is happening is that is that the annual net increase is growing larger as there is more detrital material to decompose and there is more out-gassing as the oceans warm. Also, the CO2 ramp-up phase (net emissions) lasts longer than the draw-down phase (photosynthetic withdrawal); it is also probably getting longer as the time between hard frosts is increasing, while the plants are limited by sunlight. That is, the plants are going to loose their leaves even if there aren’t any hard freezes.

Scissor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 7:06 am

It’s interesting that at Mauna Loa, the difference between min and max of the annual cycle is 6 or 7 ppm but at Point Barrow it’s 3 times that. At Samoa and the South Pole, the variation is tiny, especially at Samoa.

https://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/graphics_gallery/other_stations/global_stations_co2_concentration_trends.html

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 7:04 pm

Biological decomposition proceeds all year, particularly in the Tropics, unless there is a shortage in detrital organic material, limiting bacteria; plant respiration similarly proceeds all year, with CO2 emissions at night with photosynthesis active, while the boreal respiration is largely confined to roots in the Winter as long as the ground temperature stays above freezing. On the other hand, photosynthesis is such a strong sink that the net result is a decline in atmospheric CO2 despite bacteria pumping out lots of CO2 with warm temperatures, in contrast with reduced activity during cooler months.

Reply to  David Pentland
April 5, 2025 10:18 am

That shows the seasonal impact of bacteria and respiration (peaking in May), and the subsequent photosynthesis draw-down, which is shorter in duration, at MLO.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 7:56 am

The solubility of CO2 in sea water is highly variable with pressure, so it is more likely the rate at which deep ocean waters mix and are forced upwards that determine atmospheric CO2 levels over centuries+ time frames with human CO2 emissions being secondary,….
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jime2001/41/SI/41_SI_144/_pdf

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 5:43 pm

Many thanks – in referring to human activity I am aiming to encompass all activity including the use of fossil fuels etc. In adopting this approach is then there are no blurred boundaries confusing the various forms. To that you could include cattle/sheep population and all other ruminants.
I think you encompass this argument when you go back to your original paper on CO2 and the Humanoids, several years back where you precisely link the growth in CO2 with the growth in global population. That approach does make sense.
Nice place the Solomons – many years ago I did a mine inspection post the troubles.

April 4, 2025 11:38 pm

A slight reduction in emissions will be compensated by the emissions from the oceans where their CO2 content is at equilibrium with the atmosphere. Since the dwell time of CO2 is estimated to be around 4 years, the equilibration is quite fast, so you’re not going to see much happening. And as you said, CO2 is also being absorbed by plants (whose growth is normally CO2 limited) that then start to grow faster, hence the greening of the Earth. Human influence is about as ostensible as an individual grain of sand on a beach. Human influenced climate change is what it is: a religion.

Reply to  Eric Vieira
April 5, 2025 5:25 am

You’re quite right. If CO2 is a powerful greenhouse gas why is it so cold on Mars when the atmosphere is 96% CO2?

Rich Davis
Reply to  JeffC
April 5, 2025 6:00 am

For all intents and purposes Mars has no atmosphere in comparison to earth.

Reply to  Rich Davis
April 5, 2025 6:12 am

But I thought CO2 was magic.

Reply to  Rich Davis
April 5, 2025 8:43 am

Mars’ atmosphere is 95% of the way to the full vacuum of the Moon….much more difficult to deal with long term/full time than science fiction movies or Elon let on…

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 4:53 pm

Because the atmosphere is so thin, so there’s lots of room between molecules for the upwelling surface radiation to escape to space.

True. And equally. because the atmosphere is so thin, so there’s lots of room between molecules for the incoming solar radiation to reach the surface.

Mars is further away from the Sun than the Earth – doesn’t receive as much energy, you see.

That’s why more CO2 in the atmosphere results in less radiation reaching the surface of the Earth, and much lower maximum temperatures than occur on the Moon after the same exposure time. Conversely, nighttime minima do not drop as low as on the Moon.

John Tyndall pointed this out over 150 years ago, but “climate scientists” are a little slow on the uptake.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 11:25 pm

First Rule Of Pig Wrestling applies.

When you’re outclassed, run away as fast as you can?

Reply to  JeffC
April 5, 2025 11:02 am

Because it is not the composition of the atmosphere but rather the relationship between pressure and temperature. It has been shown (Ref1, Ref2) that for a given influx of solar energy the mass of the atmosphere determines the surface temperature of a variety of plantary bodies. Radiative processes are a minor factor.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:07 pm

Don’t know what is wrong with the links but here they are again.

https://sciencepublishinggroup.com/article/10.11648/j.earth.20180703.13

https://sciencepublishinggroup.com/article/10.11648/j.earth.20190806.15

Both address N-Z’s work and S-B. Feel free to critique.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 6:20 am

Willis, S-B is nice as far as it goes but it does not apply directly to a spherical body with an atmosphere.

S-B does not produce the observed temperatures for different planets with the same composition. For example, for Venus taking into account a solar flux (2633 W/m^2) gives a temperature of ~55C which is 460C. Similarly, for Mars which has essentially the same atmosphere composition with a solar flux of 593 W/m^2 gives a temperature of ~-65C rather than 0C. However, taking the mass of the atmosphere without any radiation processes into account the calculated value is essentially the same as observed.

The proof is in the eating and as Holmes put it physical laws are universal.

Perhaps N-Z, Holmes, Jelbring, etc. are wrong but if the calculated and measured value differ significantly for S-B there is something wrong.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:40 pm

Willis,

You wrote –

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

Unfortunately, you have fooled yourself again. The hotter surface does not “absorb energy” from the atmosphere and increase its temperature. You really meant to say that the atmosphere reduces daytime maxima by attenuating solar insolation, and reduces the extent to which nighttime temperatures fall. You don’t need to thank me, I’m more than happy to set you straight.

You call your ignorant assumptions “proof”? No wonder you believe in a GHE!

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 9:02 pm

What a devastating response! Am I supposed to be cut to the quick?

Sorry to disappoint you, Willis.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:40 pm

Cat got your tongue? Totally snookered?

April 5, 2025 12:21 am

“My friend with whom I’m staying has Starlink. So for all you Elon haters out there, he’s done a huge service for mankind.”

Thank you for saying that. It seems that TDS has made it impossible for what should otherwise be “rational” people to understand that. The guy who rescues astronauts and brings communications to regions devastated by hurricanes is seeing his electric vehicles vandalized, and warehouses attacked, for absolutely no reason.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 3:12 am

They don’t realise that DOGE won’t disappear just because Elon’s 130 days are up.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 3:24 am

I’ve no real problems with either Elon Musk or President Trump and not wishing to open a new can of worms. But I think that, depending on how things develope, Europe has alternatives to almost every American communication and defence technology which may become replacements for American sources quite quickly. When an ally becomes less than reliable you have to re-assess the situation. Social media my be an exception, where China may be a rising rival.
Anyway for Starlink Eutelsat has offered Ukraine an equivalent, although there are four or more suggested for Europe.

Anyway enjoy your stay in the Southern Hemisphere, keep well and stay safe.

Sweet Old Bob
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
April 5, 2025 5:04 am

Please read this post.

It shows what the EU might have in its future .

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2025/04/05/the-first-of-many-vietnam-negotiates-zero-tariff-policy/

Starts with Nam . shows EU likely policy following .

EU not expected to be smart ….

best wishes.

Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
April 5, 2025 6:11 am

If Europe, China, etc., do not like US tariffs, why do they have their own tariffs and non-tariff barriers?
In response to US tariffs, Vietnam finally reduced its tariffs to ZERO, but its sales to the US were $136.6 billion, and it bought from the US $13.1 billion, in 2024.
Vietnam, Canada, Mexico, Europe, China, Korea, Japan, etc., with huge trade surpluses, should concentrate not on retaliating, but on buying more US goods to reduce their trade surpluses.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Vietnam+imports++from+and+exports+to++the+US+in+2024&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Reply to  wilpost
April 5, 2025 5:25 pm

American goods are probably too expensive for the Vietnamese to increase purchases significantly.

Reply to  Ben Vorlich
April 5, 2025 6:10 am

Europe/Brussels, has studied that and came to the conclusion it would take at least 10 to 15 years to replace US software companies, without infringing on patents.

Reply to  Ben Vorlich
April 5, 2025 3:34 pm

Funny …

The ally that became less than reliable was Europe and Canada ….

Cheers,

Bill

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 6:07 am

Musk is even greater than Edison of his time.

Honda had been making a very efficient AC engine for its Hybrid Prius for decades.
Musk comes along, looks at it and makes changes to “adjust” the EM fields, and bam, greater efficiency

Musk mass produces his small rocket engines, puts 40 of them in a circular array, and mounts the array on a compass-type swivel, and bam, recovers an 80-ton booster by catching it gently on a giant arm. Awesome is the word.

That puts the French and USSR out of business, because they used huge engines for many decades. Ossified thinking.

Musk goes into the netherworld of the super-bloated federal government and all hell breaks loose. The resulting changes are needed to MAGA

Scissor
Reply to  wilpost
April 5, 2025 7:19 am

OK, except Prius is a Toyota product.

Reply to  wilpost
April 5, 2025 7:36 am

Musk made a bundle on PayPal, is technically sound, but mostly realized the power of hiring the best engineers to get plausible dreams moving….He doesn’t actually think of tech innovations by himself, but he does have better success than most people at recognizing which ones are only in need of some good engineering to make them practical. Then his ability to get politicians to buy in to his plan by virtue of his financial success is unequalled…however he has probably learned something about the fickleness of public notoriety lately.

Reply to  DMacKenzie
April 5, 2025 10:54 am

Jobs, of Apple fame, said he wants the ten best people in the world working at Apple.
Musk wants the same
.
It is not rocket science

The trick is to talk to such smart people to determine the “click” factor

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  wilpost
April 5, 2025 7:52 am

Honda had been making a very efficient AC engine for its Hybrid Prius for decades.”

Honda doesn’t make the Prius.

Reply to  Jeff Alberts
April 5, 2025 10:55 am

Toyota does

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  wilpost
April 5, 2025 6:09 pm

Then why did you say Honda?

Rational Keith
Reply to  johnesm
April 5, 2025 3:09 pm

There are other SATCOM systems such as Iridium, but in Willis current southern sojourn he has Starlink via a friend and is glad of that.

As for bashing Musk, the fundamental concern is his method. Even his sometimes boss Trump has urged use of a surgeon’s scalpel instead of hatchet.

April 5, 2025 12:50 am

Thanks Willis, enjoy your stay south of the equator. Never mind those who can’t read or have such bad and uncorrected eyesight that twisting words occurs by default.

Smoke dope, be woke, go broke and then bloke springs to mind.

I’m kind of tired listening to the same evergreen’s BS about emissions and CO2. None of them are a problem, except for those who can’t remember what they had for breakfast this very morning.

CO2 in the earth’s atmosphere was never and will never be a problem, except concentrations are reached that we sufficate or that plant life becomes imossible. I’m too lazy to point out the exact ppm
firstly because us sceptics I don’t have to convince
and secondly those who want us to believe their propaganda don’t want to be convinced.

So in both cases for me kinda a waste of time, sort of.

More important than CO2, since that dead horse seems to have already beaten to it’s death and thanks to 47 won’t be ridden anymore is the increasing ecotards shift to “emissions” in general. Nit picking again on a nonexisting problem name it whatever: CO, SO2, fine particles, NOx etc.

Those who remember the 70s and 80s could certainly tell you the (real) story about air quality: smog is gone, the smell of unburned gasoline is gone, black snow is gone (and not due to allegedly mancaused climate change), acid rain is gone, etc. .All due to tecnological progres that mainly has reached it’s economically feasable limits.

“The air” in our atmosphere today is as clean as it can get, so please all you left leaning ecotards stop burning other people’s cash if you really care about the planet and the enviroment. Light your own unicorn rainbow farts and see how far you will get.

Well, so far my thumbs up to your work Willis, I enjoy your articles (and those ox others) as well as the downvotes Nickyboy, Flin(tstoner) and Co. receive for their ill attempted counters on this site.

Here’s is true democracy at work and not that scam we have to endure every 4 years. So all you “believers” that call others “deniers” keep on hitting yourselves here on this site, I enjoy your ignorance and the cloud 7 you’re dancing on. Reality hits always back harder than any rock you can imagine.

Thanks again Willis and Wattsupwiththat

Reply to  varg
April 5, 2025 6:14 am

The new word is NITWIT-PICKING

Dan Hughes
April 5, 2025 4:32 am

hey Willis,

In the Third Figure, having Title:
Actual CO2 Levels (black, hollow circles) And
CO2 Levels Estimated From CO2 Emissions (red, solid circles)

In the Equation just inside the margins of the plot:

Estimated CO2(t) = PIV + [ CO2(t-1) – PIV + Emissions(t-1) * Alpha ]/7.81

Should not 7.81 instead be 8.71, or the value 8.71 in the main text might be 7.81?

Dan Hughes
Reply to  Dan Hughes
April 5, 2025 5:02 am

oops, I gigot to quote the text. Here it is:
of CO2 by 8.71 gigatonnes of CO2 emissions

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 10:08 am

The number should be 2.13 * 44 / 22 …

Muphry’s Law : “If you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written.”

I think the multiplier should be 44 / 12 (= 11 / 3, the ratio between the atomic weights of a CO2 molecule versus an atom of (the most common isotope of) Carbon.

.

Side question.

You appear to be using the “March (year N-1) to February (year N)” averages of the Mauna Loa numbers for the “CO2” column in your spreadsheet.

Any particular reason for not using Jan-Dec, seeing as the focus is on 12-month deltas ?

.

PS : The formula copied by Dan from your figure is :
CO2(t) = PIV + [ CO2(t-1) – PIV + Emissions(t-1) * Alpha ]/7.81

The formula in your spreadsheet is (equivalent to, taking your GtCO2 to GtC conversion into account) :
CO2(t) = PIV + ( Alpha x [ CO2(t-1) – PIV + { Emissions(t-1) / 7.81 } ] )

I think the “/ 7.81” should only cover the “Emissions(t-1)” term … but I may be mixing up my brackets here (?) …

Dan Hughes
Reply to  Mark BLR
April 5, 2025 12:07 pm

The equation in the Figure is not correct. It has an extra ), or one too few (. I should have counted before commenting.

April 5, 2025 5:34 am

Off topic, but it’s good to see evidence that you hadn’t shuffled off this mortal coil. (By coincidence, I just yesterday encountered similar evidence for Christopher Monckton.)

April 5, 2025 5:56 am

Willis, did you fly to the Solomon Islands or did you sail down there?

I can’t imagine why X is censoring you. Did they give you a specific reason for the ban?

I thought ole Elon was for free speech. Maybe Elon isn’t making this decision.

Any appeals available to you?

Bob Weber
April 5, 2025 6:03 am

“She says this shows human CO2 emissions have very little effect on atmospheric CO2 levels.

…seems clear evidence that the rise in CO2 levels is MAINLY a result of human emissions.”

While your logic seems right. I can’t really agree with your conclusion here Willis, thus I think you’ve bastardized Jennifer’s point altogether. Her point clearly was the 2020 lockdowns didn’t perceptibly affect CO2. I agree with her point.

This can be seen quite clearly in the Scripps CO2 weekly anomaly for 2020, below. The anomaly is all CO2 deviations from the annual CO2 cycle 1991-2020 climatology.

comment image

The year 2020 had a negative CO2 anomaly, but 48% of the years since 1958 have had greater negative anomalies than 2020, the last being 2022, during the third leg of the triple-dip La Niña.

The weekly ESRL CO2 anomaly lagged the recent El Niño, see below. It is clear CO2 anomalies are temperature regulated, and a lagging climate indicator, therefore natural CO2 fluctuations must overwhelm man-made emissions changes. There are also other ways to reach this conclusion.

comment image

comment image

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:31 pm

I fear I can’t give you a short answer.

And any “answer”, short or long, that you give, will be quite worthless, as usual, I’m sure.

Maybe if you could demonstrate a little common courtesy by actually quoting the commenter, it might help.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 9:03 pm

Don’t expect the pig to be courteous?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:40 pm

OK.

Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 6, 2025 7:09 am

Maybe if you could demonstrate a little common courtesy

Willis : “Thanks, Kim Bob. … I fear I can’t give you a short answer.”

You : “And any “answer”, short or long, that you give, will be quite worthless, as usual, I’m sure.”

.

For anyone looking at this exchange in isolation (only up to your “Reply” to Willis’s “Reply”), who is the poster showing a distinct lack of “courtesy” here ?

NB : Regrettably the “courtesy” level from all participants seems to have degenerated since that point in time.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Mark BLR
April 6, 2025 4:42 pm

who is the poster showing a distinct lack of “courtesy” here?

I don’t know – why are you refusing to say?

Bob Weber
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 5:21 am

Who is Kim?

I doubt very much Jennifer was trying to make the point man-made emissions had no effect on ML CO2.

Bob Weber
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 6:23 am

“Regarding your second point, that’s an entirely separate and complex question about temperature and CO2 which I haven’t even touched in this post.”

The point was that someone of your exalted acumen should have immediately recognized from looking at the second and third image of my comment that if (1) the annual CO2 cycle is natural, and (2) 67% of the CO2 annual cycle anomaly variance can be explained by the equatorial ocean heat content variation, that means man-made emissions is a minor source, not the main source.

This refutes your point “that the rise in CO2 levels is MAINLY a result of human emissions.”

Bob Weber
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 8:19 am

I’d advise you not to wait, as I have no incentive to figure this out for you after you just insulted me. Why should I do anything for you?

You love to dish it out but you can’t take it – at all. You are the person on this blog acting like a petulant child. Now get over it.

The reason I said the annual cycle is natural is to purposely exclude it from consideration as an indicator of man-made emission change, then as I just told you, 67% of the CO2 annual cycle anomaly, ie, that part that is leftover from the natural annual cycle climatology, can be explained by the EqOHCa, thus leaving the man-made part a minor player compared to natural CO2 emissions.

That was all I said about the temperature relationship, to make that exact point, and it just doesn’t matter that you didn’t say anything about it first!

Why does your formula work so well? I didn’t attempt to answer that question, as it was unnecessary in order to counter your assertion that man-made emissions were the main contributor to CO2.

Maybe you should start by checking your assumptions.

Bob Weber
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 7, 2025 5:48 am

You are the pig in this instance. Wake up Willis, you attacked a girl over nothing.

“exalted(ɪɡˈzɔːltɪd)
adj
1. high or elevated in rank, position, dignity, etc
2. elevated in character; noble; lofty: an exalted ideal.
3. informal excessively high; inflated: he has an exalted opinion of himself.
4. intensely excited; elated”

Clearly the word exalted is not an insult. “Douchebag” is an insult.

Don’t be one.

Editor
April 5, 2025 7:22 am

Any small change can easily be hidden behind graphs that are scaled to disguise them.

Does the above “procedure” account for the fact that “the earth is constantly” producing and emitting CO2? Is that factor — naturally produced and naturally emitted by Earth processes (life, oceans,etc) really so absolutely constant under otherwise changing conditions?

Why hold that value to a constant?

I don’t now — but it is convenient for the “Let’s only focus on anthropogenic fossil fuels CO2 production” crowd.

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 9:25 am

w. ==> Now, you don’t have to be polite, just let your emotions rule. The scaling of graphs is always a tricky business and always always based on the biases, acknowledged or not, intentional or not, of its creator. Just as Jennifer Marohasy did with her graph. (I’m sure that your mis-spelling of her surname in the first paragraph was unintentional.)

It is the assumptions I am questioning.

“the best fit of human emissions to the actual airborne CO2 values using just two fitted variables—the amount remaining after annual sequestration, and the pre-industrial baseline.”

You seem to be holding “annual sequestration” and establishing an unchanging “pre-industrial baseline.” As if “pre-industrial” is an actual unchanging state of Earth’s atmosphere.

I am not convinced that either of those should be or can be considered constant in the physical Earth climate.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 5:07 pm

You accuse me of lying

Really? To lie, you have to be aware of the difference between fact and fiction.

Your “Steel Greenhouse” efforts demonstrate that you don’t.

Piss off. Come back when you can keep a civil tongue in your mouth.

Civility and courtesy writ large?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 9:07 pm

That Willis believes he is smarter than the pig?

I haven’t come across a pig who believes that adding CO2 to air makes it hotter.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:44 pm

That Willis believes he is smarter than the pig?

I haven’t come across a pig who believes that adding CO2 to air makes it hotter.

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 3:25 pm

w. ==> so much for the “quote the EXACT WORDS you are discussing.”. The sentence that seems to have offended you so badly, and a thing not intended, is this (exactly): “Any small change can easily be hidden behind graphs that are scaled to disguise them.” This sentence does not include the word “you” or the word “lie” or “liar” or any other such combination.

The first sentence applies equally to Dr. Jennifer Marohasy’s graph. It is reference to a very common problem oft seen in CliSci discussions.

The Keeling Curve graph as used by Marohasy is scaled, both temporally and in magnitude, to serve her purposes and in the same way, your graph, with a longer time scale and a much different magnitude scale, serves yours.

The changes expected to be seen from Marohasy’s viewpoint cannot possibly be expected to be seen in the graph supplied by you.

That little issue set aside, your mathematics does not hold without the two values you use as constant assumptions. “I gave you the assumptions and the equation” But, if they are allowed not to be constant, but change, as you say they do here: “there are other factors at play, changes in natural emissions and sequestration.” …”For example, increasing temperatures increase ocean outgassing … but they also increase sequestration via increased plant growth.”

So, if you don’t hold those two constant, which, of course, they are not, then how does that affect your calculations?

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 7, 2025 2:32 pm

w. ==> Just the sort of reply that would get you banned at X or Facebook or any other reasonable curated public forum.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 5, 2025 3:15 pm

‘s’ & ‘z’ are very close to each other on the keyboard….

(but, that being said, the mis-spelling in the last paragraph remains. how wuz things spelled in the first paragraph?)

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 5:02 pm

 I cordially invite you to gently place that claim as far as your arm can reach up your fundamental orifice . . .

That’s fixed him! Floored by an awesome demonstration of your mental prowess!

Finishing your comment with

best regards

shows that it’s obvious your courtesy and humility know no bounds. Only joking, you don’t like anybody who disagrees with you, so in lieu of facts you resort to hypocrisy.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 9:04 pm

OK.

DMA
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 5, 2025 9:00 am

In “RESPONSIVENESS OF ATMOSPHERIC CO2 TO FOSSIL FUEL EMISSIONS: UPDATED
JAMAL MUNSHI” He concludes:

“A testable implication of the proposed causation sequence is that annual changes in atmospheric CO2 must be related to annual fossil fuel emissions at an annual time scale. This work is a test of this hypothesis. We find that detrended correlation analysis of annual emissions and annual changes in atmospheric CO2 does not support the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis because no evidence is found that changes in atmospheric CO2 are related to fossil fuel emissions at an annual time scale.
These results are consistent with prior works that found no evidence to relate the rate of warming to the rate of emissions (Munshi, The Correlation between Emissions and Warming in the CET, 2017)
(Munshi, Long Term Temperature Trends in Daily Station Data: Australia, 2017) (Munshi, Generational
Fossil Fuel Emissions and Generational Warming: A Note, 2016) (Munshi, Decadal Fossil Fuel Emissions
and Decadal Warming: A Note, 2015) (Munshi, Effective Sample Size of the Cumulative Values of a Time
Series, 2016) (Munshi, The Spuriousness of Correlations between Cumulative Values, 2016).”

Editor
Reply to  DMA
April 5, 2025 1:04 pm

DMA ==> Thank you for the links — they all seem to be papers by the same author. Do you have any links that directly support that work?

DMA
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 6, 2025 5:26 pm

Kip
https://heartland.org/wp-content/uploads/documents/Christy%20Deleo%20hotspot%20paper.pdf
Uses similar statistical math to study effect of emissions on temp’
Several papers by Salby and Harde make the same conclusion as Mnshi. Ole Humlum verifies the “temperature leads CO2 on shorter time frames. Berry’s work supports these other works and concludes the atmospheric CO2 increase is mostly natural.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  DMA
April 5, 2025 4:38 pm

This work is a test of this hypothesis

Nonsense. Hypotheses are tested by experiment, not speculation or opinion.

I am a little surprised by

. . . no evidence is found that changes in atmospheric CO2 are related to fossil fuel emissions at an annual time scale . . .

because as far as I know, burning hydrocarbons produces CO2 and H2O at the least, and these gases go into the atmosphere. Seems fair that the more you burn, the higher the CO2 concentrations become, until some later time when something like vegetation removes CO2 from the air.



DMA
Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 6, 2025 5:34 pm

Munshi’s work uses the data available with the best estimates of its uncertainty and concludes that the anthropogenic emissions are small enough and constant enough they have no true statistically significant effect on the growth rate of atmospheric CO2. I think his work is valid. He is certainly qualified to analyze this data.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  DMA
April 6, 2025 5:54 pm

I think his work is valid. He is certainly qualified to analyze this data.

The problem is that his “work” remains speculation.

As Feynman said “It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.”, and I agree.

Fiddling with numbers, no matter how expert the fiddler, is no substitute for reproducible experiment.

Willis, for example, with his “Steel Greenhouse”, simply decrees that two different numbers be equal, to try to weasel out of looking ignorant and foolish. And so it goes – GHE believers simply assert that adding CO2 to the atmosphere results in “global warming”, or something similarly vague. Not a reproducible experiment in sight.

Munshi has no “hypothesis” which can be stated in experimentally disprovable terms. Just more speculation and guess.

Walter Sobchak
April 5, 2025 9:16 am

Willis: Testing nuclear weapons in the atmosphere from 1945 to 1980 produced a spike in the ratio of radioactive 14C to stable 12C in the atmosphere.

The spike peaked in the early 1960s and was almost extinct in 30 years. Is this consistent with your estimate of Tau?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 4:21 pm

How long it takes for a pulse of CO2 injected into the atmosphere to return to the pre-pulse level.

I think I know what you are trying to say, but you obviously have difficulty expressing yourself clearly. A “pulse” cannot return to a “pre-pulse level”. That makes no sense at all.

Maybe you meant to say something equally meaningless?

Adding CO2 to air does not make it hotter, you know. Why are you concerned about CO2 in the atmosphere?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 9:04 pm

Can’t accept reality?

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:43 pm

Obviously not. Believes in a GHE which he can’t describe in any defensible way.

Reply to  Michael Flynn
April 6, 2025 7:39 am

A “pulse” cannot return to a “pre-pulse level”. That makes no sense at all.

[ Enter “Answer questions / Address issues literally” mode … ]

I am more of a “visual” person than someone who only needs to “read words” to understand an issue.

As such I “made sense of” what Willis meant when posting about “pulses” and “returning to the original level” from the last graphic in the ATL article, copied here (hopefully) :

comment image

This is what I was taught to call “an exponential decay curve”, with a “decay time” normally given by the Greek letter “tau”, which equals the number of time units (years, in this case) to reduce the initial “pulse” of material by a factor 1/e (~37%).

Note that the mathematical function will never actually fall to “Zero”, there will always be some “residual” amount of the initial “pulse” left, but in the real world it will eventually get “lost in the noise”.

.

Extending this concept from a single “pulse” to a series of “annual CO2 injections into the atmosphere” is tricky, but with the help of the graphs I eventually worked out why the equations in his spreadsheet are what they are.

It’s only a 2-parameter “toy” model, but an interesting intellectual exercise to while away (part of) a weekend nevertheless.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Mark BLR
April 6, 2025 5:11 pm

It’s only a 2-parameter “toy” model, but an interesting intellectual exercise to while away (part of) a weekend nevertheless.

I’m glad you enjoy wasting time on “toy” models. My point, as always, is that adding CO2 to air does not make it hotter, and that a colder atmosphere cannot raise the temperature of a hotter surface.

You don’t have to agree of course, any more than you have to believe that the Earth’s surface has cooled to its present temperature from the molten state.

April 5, 2025 9:25 am

…, for a two-parameter fit between emissions and CO2 level, with one of the fitted parameters coming out very near the expected value, that seems clear evidence that the rise in CO2 levels is MAINLY a result of human emissions.

It is well-established that correlation does not establish cause-and-effect. It only demonstrates that either of the variables can be predicted by the other. The seasonal (monthly) CO2 changes suggest that biologically-driven changes probably have a lag of only 2-4 weeks. Any temporal changes that might suggest cause-and-effect are lost by using only annual measurements.

Most of the COVID era reduction in anthro’ CO2 emissions occurred during the seasonal ramp-up phase (Fall, Winter, and Spring). The month of April alone was a decline variously estimated at 14-18%. Conflating the other photosynthesis draw-down months with the ramp-up phase dilutes the apparent impact of the COVID shutdowns. That is, one is only looking at the annual net change, not the seasonal changes, which are two different processes. Monthly, weekly, and even daily MLO CO2 measurements are readily available, but you only look at the annual values, thus losing significant information.

Second, the drop in the emissions was small, only about 5%.

Interestingly, that estimate was initially ~10%, which was revised downwards to 7%, and now you are claiming 5%. That is reminiscent of how historical temperatures have been adjusted over time. That is a 50% decline for a variable that is tracked closely so that no government is short-changed on the taxes owed. Solid numbers should have been available a few months into 2021.

Just in case you missed them:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/11/contribution-of-anthropogenic-co2-emissions-to-changes-in-atmospheric-concentrations/

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/03/22/anthropogenic-co2-and-the-expected-results-from-eliminating-it/

Rational Keith
April 5, 2025 12:53 pm

Mmm….
Questions from past reading:

  • why focus on absorption of excess’ CO2? It is being created and absorbed all the time.
  • doesn’t the zigzag graph from Mauna Loa show a quite short persistance time?
Rational Keith
April 5, 2025 12:55 pm

As for you benefitting from Elon Musk’s productivity, I ask what is the net benefit or loss from him considering his ham-fisted inaccurate ….

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 5, 2025 8:50 pm

No clue what that means, Keith.

No clue about thermodynamics, either. Go on, tell me how you can raise the temperature of a hotter object using the energy from a colder one!

Like your “Steel greenhouse” and other GHE fairytales.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 6, 2025 4:39 pm

Oh yes, demonstrates your level of intelligence nicely.

Fred H Haynie
April 5, 2025 2:13 pm

Don’t buy into the “e-fold” argument. The modelers correctly assume that natural emissions are taken out of the atmosphere within a year so they can claim fossil fuel burning emissions accumulate in the atmosphere. Natural emissions are at least 20 times greater than fossil fuel emissions. Natural sinks can’t tell the difference between the two. so fossil fuel emissions cannot accumulate. The rise in natural emissions rates from year-to-year results in the increases in atmospheric concentration from year-to-year.

Reply to  Fred H Haynie
April 6, 2025 6:35 am

Fred, exactly so. Currently our climate is still recovering from the Little Ice Age, for how long into the future, no one knows. So for many decades the warming ocean and biosphere have emitted CO2 into the atmosphere. The momentum of those natural processes presently is an addition annually of ~2 ppm of CO2. Thus the math is:

Ins: 4% human, 96% natural
Outs: 0% human, 98% natural.
Atmospheric storage difference: +2%
(so that: Ins = Outs + Atmospheric storage difference)
Balance = Atmospheric storage difference: 2%, of which,
Humans: 2% X 4% = 0.08%
Nature: 2% X 96 % = 1.92%
Ratio Natural : Human =1.92% : 0.08% = 24 : 1

Reply to  Ron Clutz
April 6, 2025 8:41 am

Like it or not, the growth of atmospheric CO2 started when temperatures shifted from cooling to warming, long before burning of hydrocarbons, and continues to this day.

comment image

DMA
Reply to  Ron Clutz
April 6, 2025 5:48 pm

I agree Ron. Atmospheric CO2 was increasing before the anthropogenic portion was equal to the increase so why should we think that natural process stopped when our CO2 emissions became larger than the increase?

April 5, 2025 3:40 pm

It has long been known that the slow buildup of airborne CO2 is correlated with human energy production. The accompanying fact that less than half the annually emitted CO2 remains after one year was omitted above. Biology removes ~50 ppmv of CO2/year, and that amount is slowly increasing as biology tracks the increase in net CO2 abundance.
The net CO2 increase has resulted in the observed ‘greening’ of the planet.
Later, if decarbonization is accomplished, based on the moronic idea that CO2 is a pollutant, or when humanity will no longer maintain and increase the CO2 abundance by our energy production, then, the ‘greening’ will reverse and people will begin to starve (or sooner, if the EU has its way).
The biological decline is a validated consequence of declining CO2.
Then, the fundamental question is:
How can humanity maintain food production when added CO2, now provided by our hydrocarbon fuel consumption, eventually declines in the future? The answer is obvious.

Rasmuand
April 6, 2025 7:33 am

Willis explains the conservation of mass and the carbon cycle by:
  “….“excess” airborne CO2 is being sequestered by natural processes ….” – nice, thank you.

Here some more wordings: 

  •  From a previous closed storage, a mass of carbon has been lifted into the atmosphere.
  •  By chemical analysis we don’t find all that mass of carbon in the atmosphere therefore other storages have increased their carbon content by that missing mass.
  •  During the Covid period, when the emissions decreased, we still lifted more than 35 billion tonnes CO2/year, so the atmospheric content increased accordingly as from the analysis by Mauna Loa and Willis.

Kind regards
Anders Rasmusson

April 6, 2025 3:27 pm

There was an El Nino 2018-19 and El Nino conditions for four months 2019-20.

https://origin.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ensostuff/ONI_v5.php

The North Atlantic is a major CO2 sink, its CO2 uptake is markedly reduced during a warm AMO phase.