Essay by Eric Worrall
Mike Gallagher, CEO of Ports Australia – “You can’t put them out. So you can imagine it on the street if you can’t put them out, imagine them on a vessel out at sea or in a port.”
Warning over electric scooter and bike batteries amid daily fires
By 9 News Staff 8:24pm Sep 22, 2024
…
Fire crews are noting a spate of explosions caused by lithium batteries found in e-scooters and e-bikes – and it could even happen when they’re being shipped to shops.
“The fires we’re encountering almost on a daily basis are from our smaller e-scooters, e-bikes type of batteries,” Darren Mallouk from Queensland Fire Department’s Investigation Unit told 9News.
…
Mike Gallagher, CEO of Ports Australia, said ship fires caused by these flammable batteries were virtually impossible to safely put out.
“They are packed like sardines inside a tin, except these are very dangerous sardines,” he said.
“You can’t put them out. So you can imagine it on the street if you can’t put them out, imagine them on a vessel out at sea or in a port.”
…
In 2022, a cargo ship carrying luxury vehicles including EVs sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
Read more (includes video): https://www.9news.com.au/national/lithium-battery-fires-firefighters-warning-over-electric-vehicles-ships/a1496745-3ef2-4660-be8d-c91f93713d04
…
The ferocity and speed of Lithium fires cannot be overstated, Lithium fires are more like tossing a match in a box of fireworks than a normal fire. The people in the video below were lucky to escape with their lives, there was no time to do anything but flee.
If professional firefighters struggle to extinguish lithium fires, nobody else should attempt it. Not only are you at risk of severe burns from exploding debris which are hot enough to melt steel, The fumes from Lithium are horribly poisonous.
Lithium is a powerful psychoactive. In small doses Lithium has therapeutic value in treating manic depressive disorders, but patients on Lithium have to have regular blood tests to minimise the risk of Lithium poisoning. Even at therapeutic doses Lithium can cause a variety of short and (if you are unlucky) long term insidious physiological ailments, including dementia like brain injuries, known as Lithium Neurotoxicity.
Even if firefighters control the blaze and save the house, would you really want to live in a house contaminated by Lithium? Sooner or later insurers will catch on that even if adjacent structures survive the blaze, there is a significant lingering litigation risk from people claiming their health was damaged by exposure to lithium.
Ship transport is the only part of the Lithium risk profile which seems fixable with current technology. The Lithium could be transported in a non-flammable form, such as Lithium carbonate, minimising the risk of fire. Though Lithium carbonate is still a dangerously toxic substance, applying similar protocols to transportation of other toxic substances should suffice for non flammable forms of lithium.
But converting non flammable forms of Lithium into batteries is very energy intensive, it requires lots of cheap energy – something green obsessed Western nations are struggling to provide to industry. So ships and their crews continue to risk their lives transporting unstable forms of Lithium such as finished Lithium batteries, to help green politicians maintain the fiction they are reducing CO2 emissions.
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Imagine them in your next door neighbor’s garage and you have a “Zero” lot line between you!
Zero Lot line = building to building with “Zero” feet between them like San Francisco
Imagine that situation and the garages are side-by-side, and each of you has an EV as mandated by law.
2 car garages with His and Hers EVs in both sides
You’d have something like this … within minutes adjacent vehicles catch and spread
The fun begins at 0:30ish
By 1:00 the truck next door is flaming
At 1:30 the trucks park break fails and the truck starts rolling
At 2:30 the third car is aflame
Then the fireworks really start
The majority of houses in the UK share at least one wall with their neighbours, often both. Especially in Liverpool and Manchester you’ll see rows and rows of terraced houses. It’ll be a shirt day in shirtsville if an e-bike battery goes off in one of those.
No garages though. Cars sleep outside.
But not e-bikes which is what is the subject of concern here
No firewalls between them?
No, just ordinary cavity brick walls between them. Little or no sound proofing either but of course the cavity wall has its own vented airgap which serves to spread flames to the roof space and from there of course to the rest of the street. Nice one.
A coworker was an avid hot-air-balloonist till a few years after he retired. On one of his trips he was using a Lithium battery to power his GPS and Radio to save weight on one of his endeavor to set a world record on distance & height. All he had was a waterproof sleeping bag strapped to the Balloon. about 1/2 way through the trip the battery caught on fire and he had to cut open the sleeping bag and through out the battery. He did have it in a fire proof battery bag or he would not be here now. He now keeps the battery outside the sleeping bag on a Carabiner Clip close to his hands. This battery was fully qualified to all government specs: temperature, wattage, current and air pressure. He also switched to a different type of battery.
And the higher the energy content of a chemical battery, the more intensely it can fail. It is rather like an explosive, with both parts of a chemical reaction already together.
Risk profile?
Others are taking the risks
The worst one I’ve seen was CCTV video of a poor bloke in an elevator in China where an e-bike battery spontaneously combusted and incinerated him.
No warning.
Like this
This one happened about 3 hours after running over a little road debris
Had my first viewing of a Tesla truck on the road yesterday in Columbus OH area. Hard to imagine any person who likes their pick-up truck wanting to be seen in that. Who will be buying that “truck”? Well, at least it wasn’t smoking.
I doubt you’ll see it pushing a plow this winter.
We might live in the same “little spot on the globe”.
You might find this interesting.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240000000000*/http:/www.erh.noaa.gov/iln/cmhrec.htm
(I think it ends in 2015 or early 2016 because that’s about the time it went to a “dot”gov address.)
Looks more like a dumpster than a truck.
How soon till EV’s are uninsurable by cost or because the insurance company doesn’t want the risk on the books?
There will be a drastic rethink when a multi-storey building collapses with scores off lost lives due tio an EV fire in the basement car park. Some Chinese authorities have already banned BEVs in basement carparks.
Insurers tend to lead the push to de-risk. But governments cannot be tardy in implementing rules that reduce obvious risk. It is not the incidence of EV fire but the consequence. A lithium battery is a bomb waiting for detonation. It does not need oxygen to produce copious amounts of energy. Hydrocarbon fires are relatively easy to control be removing the oxygen. Not so with a battery fire.
My local hospital has a basement carpark and about 25% of the staff have BEVs. It is only a 6-story building but can you imagine the difficulty in evacuating if an EV battery goes bang in the basementment. There is a good deal of surface parking that could be used for EV parking but it will likely take the insurer or regulator to require the change.
One can only envision the horror faced by firefighters in an enclosed underground garage.
It has to be said
https://youtu.be/-4SnIJJCH8w?si=y6PtTGgvyIZcR1wx
Imagine firefighters fighting EV, e-scooters or e-bikes’ fires with electric fire trucks and e-Canadairs …
It isn’t very bright putting all that energy in a confined space, is it?
A short circuit is a short circuit. They happen all the time. That’s why there are fuses and circuit breakers incorporated into every electrical system ever built.
Unfortunately, internal battery failures are not predictable or preventable. The best that can happen is that the battery just discharges and fails to provide energy. Batteries that can and do burst into flame and can’t be extinguished should be banned for consumer use.
You would think people had that figured out already.
After all, the consumer trade protection people have already banned lawn darts.
Most electrochemical cells (aka batteries) have pressure relief vents. In the event of an internal short, the pressure builds and the vent gives, preventing a true explosion. I have a scar on my leg as testament to the effectiveness of the vent.
The only battery explosion I have ever witnessed is a lead acid car battery. A cell short ignited the built up H2 and kaboom. The worst of it was the acidic electrolyte being spewed all over.
Very few electrochemical cells create flame when the cell fails. The popular Lithium ion Polymer Organic (LIPO) commonly misnamed “lithium ion” is a flamer. To my knowledge, it is the only cell that produces flame when failing.
LiPO has a very high energy density and, being a secondary cell, is rechargeable. Since the early 1980s when I first started studying all of the various cell chemistries, the industry has not succeeded in eliminating this “feature.” Improvements in quality control, processing and handling, cell-balancing electronics, etc., has not perfected the technology. There will be failures. The failures will have spectacular results. It is the nature of the beast.
Often overlooked is if the LiPO is taken too cold, it freezes. Recharging a frozen, or previously frozen LiPO cell or battery is a hazardous operation and the probability of failure is greatly augmented.
I would rather have lawn darts. They are safer.
Freezing point usually around -70C
Funny but when qualifying the LiPO for military applications, we have to adjust the minimum temperature from -40C to -10C.
I do not know where you got that -70C. Ah. That for a fully charge cell. -76C by some accounts.
A discharge cell will freeze between -20C and 0C depending on residual charge.
Charging below 0C can damage the battery.
EV batteries typically include external heaters. When it is cold, the battery continues to discharge as the heater keeps the battery warm. When the battery depletes, the heater cuts off and if it is below 0C the risk of battery freezing is significant.
Just had a fire locally due to scooter being charged inside a home. When an EV is in a wreck, does it increase the chances of fire? Just say NO to these EV fire bombs……..definitely NO to Chinese made fire bombs.
That casts a net over close to 100% of them. I doubt there is any EV on the road that is not sourcing some components, if not all, from China. The BMS is a potential point of failure and I expect China dominates in this aspect.
What about iPhones?
Laptop computers?
Smart watches?
All of the above carries risk.
I have seen cell phones and laptops.
I have yet to see a smart watch.
but my gas stove might exacerbate asthma
According to one report paid for by an “environmental” NGO.
It would seem that asthma should have been rampant in the past when gas lighting was the norm.
It kind of was… Just not as rampant as it became when air conditioning is the norm and some primates use it as a substitute for proper ventilation.
All it would take to put an end to this is for the government to stop lying to us.
And so it will continue…..
Sadly this is not humor.
Ok, small house fires are not rare. I suspect many of us may have experienced one, at least. My question is, what EXTERNAL temperature will compromise these batteries to the point of igniting the lithium solution? I have a bad feeling that when they get more common, the smallest house fire could become a deadly inferno, even if the battery did not start the fire. Also, I could easily see firefighters putting out a house fire when a lithium battery ignites. Not a good scenario.
Given Lithium batteries can spontaneously combust, I suspect it doesn’t take much of any form of mistreatment to mess them up.
I was part of an investigation of a lithium thionyl chloride (primary, no LiPO) at a military installation. The primary cause was storing the battery on its side which put pressure on the foils which got a short due to dendrite formation. Had the cell been stored on its end it would not have shorted. The cell vented. The personnel ignored hazmat procedures and ended up in the infirmary for 24 hours observation due to the inhalation of the fumes.
The point is, you are correct. It does not take much abuse at all.
Yes, that description fits what I’ve seen also.
Lithium batteries (for power tools etc.) could definitely make things worse.
But how many times are the scooters, bikes recharging the source of the fire?
A house here in New Zealand was totally destroyed by an electric drill battery exploding that was NOT charging!
People electrocuted by toasters?
Anaphylactic reactions from airplane peanuts?
These are situations that require funds set aside and staff lawyers.
Small companies? Nah.
There are likely many items in your house that have LiPo batteries on board. Phones, laptops, surveillance cameras, LED flashlights, radio controlled toys. All just add intensity and nasties to an existing house fire. Some can be determined to be the seat of the fire. Lots of videos from surveillance cameras showing fire being started by battery powered device.
LiFePO4 is much safer technology. They can be subjected to a blow torch with no explosive consequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9xZf4p8PkQ
You can buy LiFePO4 cans but they have lower energy density than LiPo.
Safer, yes. Lower energy density, yes. It only means you recharge a bit more frequently and replace the cells on a slightly shorter schedule. They also provide a bit less energy, so torque in a drill will be a bit less.
Typical operating spec range goes to +70C, fire/explosion warning labels sometimes say 85C, seen it happen at 100C. Word “solution” implies liquid. Most people would describe what they see as a solid.
Why is it that the lithium batteries in laptops and tablets and phones and other rechargeable cordless household items are not a fire hazard? You never hear of spontaneous combustion from them, its only the far less numerous cars and scooters whose fires are reported.
Is it just that the energy content is so much lower? Though why that should make all the difference…?
But they are. In 2019, The Conception, a 75-foot dive boat, burned down off the coast of Southern California in the Channel Islands National Park. The fire broke out overnight in the main cabin where cameras, cell phones and laptops were being charged overnight.
Phone fires are a risk. When flying, you’re supposed to warn the crew if your phone gets warmer than usual
There have been commercial aircraft making emergency landing due to cell phone fires.
There are plenty of photos only of burn-up lap tops.
There was at least one report of a person killed by their cell phone battery.
Those batteries are smaller with commensurate lower energy. They can burn a house down but only in in the vicinity of other flammable materials, which is why they are not making the news.
Yes, lithium batteries in laptops and tablets and phones and other rechargeable cordless household items are a fire hazard. People have decided to live with it. Cars up the ante because the batteries are so f^&$@ur momisugly&$%@ur momisugly big.
Oops, sorry, the Q-Bert special characters got weirdly spell corrected.
Battery technology is in a continuous state of development. LFP batteries are a safer alternative to the standard Lithium Ion batteries which are at risk of spontaneous combustion. Unfortunately, the energy density of LFP batteries is slightly lower. However, as the technology progresses, we can reasonably assume the energy density of LFP batteries will increase. Here’s a site that addresses the issue.
https://www.ufinebattery.com/blog/your-ultimate-guide-to-the-safest-lithium-battery/#:~:text=Lithium%20Iron%20Phosphate%20(LFP)%20Batteries,much%20safer%20and%20more%20stable
“Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) Batteries
Common Uses: LFP batteries are increasingly used in electric vehicles, solar energy storage systems, and power tools due to their stability and long lifespan.
Features: They offer a slightly lower energy density compared to Li-ion batteries but are much safer and more stable.
Safety Concerns: LFP batteries are considered one of the safest lithium battery types. They have a lower risk of thermal runaway and are more resistant to high temperatures.”
You’re still storing the oxidiser with the metal based fuel, which makes it a form of thermite bomb.
I need to look up Lithium iron phosphate. I am not conversant in that chemistry.
Almost all batteries vent, not flame. Part of it is the LiPO has an organic electrolyte.
Phosphate is a nasty element. It is even harder to put out than lithium.
When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
(well, not me, because being rational, I wouldn’t make such assumptions)
The energy density is defined by the chemistry.
To increase energy density requires modifying the chemistry.
Back in July there was a LiON fire between Vegas and Barstow on I 15.
The cause was a semi load spilled and caught fire:
https://bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/northbound-i-15-closed-near-barstow-after-semi-hauling-lithium-batteries-catches-fire
Another in California.
I was there for the fun.
All lithium batteries are based on lithium ion chemistry.
The specific chemistry that causes fires is Lithium Ion Polymer Organic (LiPO).
I am not sure who originated the “LiON” acronym, but it is misleading and inaccurate.
Insurers of the world unite!
We can stop this madness.
I wonder when we’ll see the first lithium battery factory or lithium battery storage facility go up in flames like one of those Russian ammo dumps?
I thought that happened a couple of months ago in China.
I believe there was something on WUWT on that fire.
There were others, too, but the media will not report them since it is helping the current administration push EVs.
There was a battery warehouse fire in 2021 in Morris, IL. They even tried pouring concrete on it to put it out.
https://www.shawlocal.com/morris-herald-news/news/local/2022/06/28/morris-battery-warehouse-fire-a-look-back-one-year-later
If you would like to see reporting on video:
or a BYD showroom.
Story tip
The reality of running an EV: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/hybrid-electric-cars/electric-car-mileage-challenge/
USA is 35 years into a solar powered car competition called Sunrayce where engineering college students (still) make wildly impractical single-passenger solar cars to drive across the country. The most important design variable: how small can you get the team’s driver?
And how many exotic, super-high efficiency III-V multijunction space solar cells can the team afford to buy?
A friend’s daughter was in a team from Cambridge University that took part in a solar powered race across Australia a few years ago.
I don’t know whether it’s still being run each year.
It’s been going on for decades. Seems like optimal design got discovered in the 1st few years. They’re down to Pinewood Derby type details.
And yet another article about “Lithium batteries” without ANY mention of the specific chemistry involved (sad face). There are MANY “Lithium” or “Lithium-ion” battery chemistries with widely varying levels of hazard.
FWIW, we have LiFePO4 battery cells as our house battery on our boat (with a full BMS) – I am NOT concerned about this battery causing a fire, and if the boat catches fire from some other source, the lithium battery is not going to be the primary accelerant, as the diesel tank and fiberglass hull are a much bigger problem. We do, however, have a number of (much smaller) Lithium-polymer batteries aboard (cellfones, laptops, cameras, tools, etc.) and we do take care to minimize risks when charging those.
Yeah, but can your house post a 0-60mph time under 5 sec?
When you are talking car or scooter fires, it is high probability the cause of the fire is a LiPO battery.
There are not that many lithium batteries (more than one or two) that can be recharged, but the only one know to flame-on is LiPO.
“imagine them on a vessel out at sea”
They’re on wheels.
The ocean is big.
-splash-
No need to imagine. There are videos of ships afire due to LiPO batteries..
There was a TV program around 2015 called “Halt and Catch Fire” about computer programmers. The name came from a fictitious computer instruction.
Think about all those battery management computers in EVs, controlling the batteries’ charge/discharge state. Imagine that we buy an enormous number of these vehicles from China, and they do, in fact include this instruction. Which can be triggered remotely, while the vehicles are on the road, in garages in homes, in office buildings, in tunnels, on ferries. If you doubt this is possible, you are naive.
The chaos would be unimaginable. EVs with lithium batteries will be the ultimate stealth weapon.
In light of the recent events in the middle east, where one of the parties figured out how to get pagers and walkie-talkies to detonate remotely, I think that I will stay away from batteries containing battery management systems that come from a country that is an adversary to the US.
Without some sort of proven guarantee that the BMS cannot be hacked, I would worry about the day when an adversary decides to launch a pre-emptive attack on the USA by having the BMSs in all the lithium batteries execute the “Halt and Catch Fire” instruction that they have hidden in the BMS operating system. There is nothing I can do about the laptops, phones, and other electronics that are ubiquitous, but at least I will eliminate the really large threats.
To be even safer, maybe I will just stay with dumb lead acid batteries, checking the water level regularly and watching the battery charger voltages.
“,,,to help green politicians maintain the fiction they are reducing CO2 emissions.
5,,,”
Indeed so and of course we now are seeing the rising proof that CO2 does not have a real effect on climate either.