Time to retire the term ‘renewable energy’ from serious discussion and energy policy directives

From Climate Etc

by Russell Schussler (Planning Engineer)

Part I: Renewable energy as a grouping lacks coherence

This series will look in depth at the inherent and emerging flaws within the renewable/nonrenewable framework for classifying generating energy resources. It may have made sense 50 years ago to speak in terms of renewable and non-renewable resources when thinking of future energy needs and plans. That basic conceptualization helped promote change and thinking about the impact of generation resources on the environment.  But we are now far removed from the 1970’s.  Current calls for major changes in the electric supply system, such as Net-Zero, envision sweeping change.  Broad system efforts to address environmental concerns while meeting energy needs call for a more sophisticated understanding than can be supported by a dichotomy between “renewable” and “non-renewable” resources. 

Neither “renewables” or “non-renewables” are coherent groupings for an energy resource typology.  Similarities between resources in different groupings can be strong and within group differences can be large.  Most statements made in reference to generic “renewables” are either trivial or misleading.  Policy and legislation favoring renewables over other generation resources can encourage poor resource choices and hinder good resource alternatives.

It might be expected that those who are concerned about C02 emissions, those concerned about nuclear power, and those more broadly identifying with environmental movements might take exception with this proposal. But any serious proponents of net-zero or of major energy transitions should be in favor of more clarity and increased precision when undertaking serious discussions. Many environmentalists have grave concerns with expanded hydro and biomass-based generation, for example.  This series will discuss later how “non-renewable” resources might be the cleanest and greenest proposals in many instances. Furthermore, the case against burning fossil fuels is more strongly made based on current environmental concerns, not based on fears that that such resources might run out hundreds of years from now. 

Instead of speaking of renewables, let’s talk about how clean resources are, how green they might be, how sustainable they might be, and how well they work for supporting the needs of consumers and the power system. Let’s not lump resources which can be expanded with those that have limited future applicability.  We shouldn’t confuse resources that support the grid with those that stress the grid, and pretend they have similar potential.  For example, Iceland with abundant hydro and geothermal resources does not provide a renewable model to provide guidance and support for an area rich with wind and solar resources.

Renewable is a Relationship not an Independent Characteristic of Energy Sources

The UN defines Renewable energy as “energy derived from natural sources that are replenished at a higher rate than they are consumed.”  Whether something is renewable or not, then is dependent upon the relationship between replenishment and consumption.   Are wooden ships “renewable”?  Yes and no.   Forests in Ireland and Iceland provided “renewable” timber needed for ship building, until consumption increased much faster than the tree stocks could be renewed.  Ship timber went from being a renewable resource to limited resources to a tragic environmental loss in a short time frame.  At one point whale oil was a viable  “renewable resource” which gave light to much of the western world.   While many resources are “renewable” for a time, as usage increase their use may prove to be unsustainable. 

Such relationships can be observed with present renewable energy sources as well.  If you overbuild or over-dispatch generation relative to some geothermal resources, they can be exhausted.  Similarly, the use of hydro resources can be depleted.  Many areas have “water wars” where various constituencies fight over how water resources are used by recreational, agricultural, aquaculture, navigation and energy production.  Past hydro energy usage patterns are not sustainable in many regions. Biomass generation, as did shipbuilding, can lead to resource depletion as well.

What about Non-renewable Resources?

Is the problem with nuclear, natural gas and coal, as suggested by the renewable/non-renewable dichotomy, that we may one day run out of these resources?  Or are the concerns better focused on their potential impacts in nearer terms?

Nuclear power is generally not considered renewable. Nuclear waste purportedly could power the US for 100 years.  Economically assessable uranium might last 200 years. With breeder reactors we may be able to generate with nuclear power for billions of years.  Recognizing all the resources needed to produce electrical energy, based on our current technological abilities it looks like we could generate far more energy for longer time periods with nuclear resources before facing significant resource constraints than we might with renewable resources such as wind and solar.  Sustainability based arguments against nuclear power are weak.  Arguments against nuclear should be based on considerations beyond whether it is renewable or not.  

Now let’s look at coal. The estimates for coal availability span 50 to 500 years or more. Those who oppose the use of coal want it sharply curtailed in the near term because of its environmental impact, not because they want to have it available for future use.  Those who favor use of coal generally see coal as a bridge fuel and are not wedded to coal as a fuel choice beyond the life of existing and planned coal plants.  Most importantly the arguments around coal use are not around issues of sustainability of supply, but rather the impact of coal plants today.  Virtually no one’s position on coal use today will change based upon their understanding of whether we have 50 years or 3 million years of coal availability remaining.

Finally let’s consider natural gas.  Because it is “cleaner” than coal, many see it as an excellent fuel choice to transition away from coal. Common estimates of natural gas availability fall between 60 and 120 years. This is far more natural gas than was assumed available before the advent of horizontal fracking.  Again, even at the lower ends of availability, there is plenty of natural gas availability to allow for current natural gas facilities and significant future additions.  Once again. overwhelmingly concerns around natural gas focus on the impacts of current fracking efforts and CO2 contributions, not the long-term availability of natural gas.

Resource Availability

Mankind depends on many resources for energy and other needs.  Most all of these resources depending on demand, may become constrained.  Does it make sense to set policies that consider resource availability hundreds of years in the future? As the saying goes, “It’s hard to predict, especially about the future.”  If the thinking that dominated the renewable energy debate expanded into other areas, we would look at many resources very differently than we do now.  WorldWatch says we could run out of iron ore by 2070. Projections for bauxite suggest it might only last for 25 to 200 years. Scientists from the Global Phosphorous Research initiative estimates that peak phosphorous will be reached by 2030. Gold mining may be uneconomically sustainable by 2050. Supply problems for cobalt may emerge in the next decade.  Tungsten sources appear to be very limited.  On the other side, it appears that we may have significantly more lithium than previously anticipated.

Many will argue that human ingenuity, changes in technology, alternative ways of doing things, alternative ways to capture resources and such will forestall any severe consequences from such forecasted resource depletions.  So far, we have been good at coming up with solutions to anticipated resource problems.  We had a close call with nitrogen a little over 100 years ago.  Nitrogen for weapons and fertilizer were dependent upon reserves of bird guano built up over ages on remote islands.  The supply was precariously dwindling, threatening to bring civilization to a halt.  The Haber-Bosch process developed in Germany was able to draw nitrogen from the air and produce ammonia.  Nitrogen from the ammonia could then supply the world. As an additional note – the initial process was dependent on osmium, an extremely rare element as a catalyst. Other catalysts and other processes have since been discovered, such that we are no longer dependent on osmium or the Haber-Bosch process.  We should also be aware that today’s solution may be tomorrow’s problem.  Instead of problems relating to dwindling nitrogen availability, abundant anthropogenic nitrogen creates environmental problems by supporting cyanobacteria and resultant algae blooms.

None of the above is to argue that we should glibly and wastefully use resources, ignoring potential future consequences.  But neither should we dogmatically proclaim that resource depletion is just around the corner and that present trends cannot possibly persist.  We have no real idea of any resource needs 100 years in the future.   As we look at various generation resources ,the question of sustainability will always bring challenges. In considering competent alternatives it will be important to be as evenhanded as possible across resource types.

Sustainability Depends on the Entire Energy Conversion Process

Wind and solar appear not as constrained as some other renewable resources might, since we get fresh quantities daily. It is important though that we look not only upon the direct energy source, but at all resources needed to produce electric energy as well as the complete life-cycle impacts including construction, transportation and support services.  To capture energy from wind and solar sources, we rely on many resources that are only available in limited amounts.  It is arbitrary (and incorrect)  to say that we only care about the renewability of the original energy source itself, and not the resources needed to convert the energy source to electric energy. If you are going to treat all potential resources fairly, it should be considered that the construction of vast solar and wind facilities can deplete critical resources, possibly making their increased use unsustainable.  Current technologies do not allow for the replenishment in the foreseeable future of all the resources needed to convert wind and solar energy to electrical energy. 

One may argue that wind and solar may not always be dependent on the limited resources that they rely on today, such as rare earth metals. That eventually through currently unknown technologies, they will be able to always meet power needs.  As previously discussed, this is a perfectly reasonable hope.  However, if you can make that argument, a similar one for nuclear fuel is likely even more well founded.   Any dichotomy that places hydro, biomass, wind and solar as sustainable power sources, but sees nuclear power as being somehow less sustainable, should be considered suspect.

Does Renewable Mean Clean or Green?  Should We Quickly Retire Non-Renewable Resources?

Environmental groups have been clear for years in their opposition to most all new hydro projects. Many environmental groups strongly oppose the Biomass industry, decrying the environmental impacts of our current approaches.  FERC just approved the removal of four existing hydro resources based upon their continuing impacts.  Geothermal plants release CO2 and most are carefully monitored to track emissions. Even wind and solar plants are not universally clean and green, as they can have particularly adverse impacts in some environments.

Many fossil fuel plants which could effectively provide backup power are imprudently retired to hasten a transition to  support higher levels of renewables. This may provide aggregate numbers which look better to some, but this can be counter-productive. When considering lifecycle impacts of generation resources, retaining old plants for emergency service can be the most environmentally smart move available. Most environmental damage has already happened.  Remaining incremental fuel impacts are small compared to the benefits.  Considering CO2 alone, building extensive wind and solar or adding batteries to replace the emergency power that such units might provide, may have far greater adverse environmental impacts than prolonging limited fossil fuel generation.

The Line Between Renewable and Non-Renewable is Not Clear and Will Continue to Blur

Energy resources of the future may vary considerably from today’s expectations. It is likely that many might straddle the line between what is considered renewable and non-renewable.  Existing technologies already blur the line.  Molten salt cores are heated with mirrors to enable solar power to better match the grid capabilities of fossil fuel-based resources.  As part of the process in some applications, the “renewable” solar resource was designed to burn supplemental natural gas to make the process more efficient.  So far, such plants have not worked as well in practice as in theory.  But they have provided hopes to many as a future  synchronous “renewable” resource. If in fact they did work as planned, it might well make a lot of sense to be able to effectively tap a lot of solar power with the addition of a little natural gas, even if such a plant was not strictly “renewable”.  Without careful attention to actual impacts, future clean plants which fall short of being strictly  “renewable” may face undue hurdles.

Final Note

Speaking in terms of renewables and nonrenewable generating resources generally provides more confusion than clarity. Within-group differences are large in many cases. We can’t see the future and know what alternatives might emerge and prove successful.  It is, however, clearly emerging that “renewable” and “nonrenewable” are dated terms who have outlived their usefulness.  The next part of this series will look at how various generating resources impact the grid.  Some “renewables” provide great support for the grid, while others create challenges.  Lumping them together in discussion of grid impacts creates misunderstandings and problems that will long term harm any efforts to change the grid.

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cuddywhiffer
February 7, 2024 6:02 am

‘Sustainability’ is a far better term. It pushes wind and solar to one side, except for niche applications.

Scissor
Reply to  cuddywhiffer
February 7, 2024 8:12 am

I think it should be described as purple haired green energy with a nose ring (and possibly trans).

strativarius
Reply to  Scissor
February 7, 2024 8:56 am

“”…possibly trans…””

offensive to transformers….

Scissor
Reply to  strativarius
February 7, 2024 9:41 am

That Hertz my feelings. Watts wrong with you today? Amped up on coffee?

Reply to  Scissor
February 7, 2024 10:56 am

Amped up on coffee?

Frequently.. isn’t it shocking !

Reply to  strativarius
February 7, 2024 5:43 pm

Haven’t we a lot of those ‘trans-formers’ in our educational establishments?

Reply to  cuddywhiffer
February 7, 2024 9:48 am

I feel that the words sustainable, sustainability and green are equally problematic to renewable. They are code words that are usually undefined, but meant to bolster support for wind and solar as well as the obviously unsustainable, non-green and unhealthy biomass projects. Sustainability is a quality that must be defined in part by the time frame in mind. Nature doesn’t work in a sustainable way over the span of geologic time. Nature didn’t sustain the dinosaurs or any of the vast majority of other species that ever lived. Nothing should be considered sustainable as an innate quality because everything that exists will disappear in time.

As for green, one could argue there is nothing more green than burning fossil fuels and returning the trapped carbon to the atmosphere as life-giving CO2. Satellites have the best view of the impact of this activity as they measure the gradual greening of planet earth which translates into a substantial increase in life of all forms in the biosphere.

Reply to  cuddywhiffer
February 7, 2024 1:53 pm

None of the sources are sustainable without significant infusions of money for design, construction, maintenance, distribution of the electricity, etc. It is just a matter of which ones are feasible and cost effective and at a minimum, affordable.

February 7, 2024 6:03 am

How will the EU know now if a country is meeting its ‘Renewable Obligation’?

Reply to  Leo Smith
February 7, 2024 9:23 am

when its economy has ground to a halt

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
February 7, 2024 12:23 pm

LOL! 🙂

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
February 7, 2024 4:26 pm

When its native population has been reduced by 70 to 80 percent.

Reply to  AndyHce
February 7, 2024 5:46 pm

Why are you referencing the ‘natives’? I thought it was the “white supremicists” we were after.

Tom Halla
February 7, 2024 6:10 am

California formerly rated large hydro as not renewable.

pillageidiot
Reply to  Tom Halla
February 7, 2024 7:23 am

Since deranged Marxists in the west coast states are currently advocating to remove dams … I rate California’s statement as “True” in the near-term outlook!

Reply to  Tom Halla
February 7, 2024 9:53 am

I suspect the change came as it became clear that wind and solar didn’t live up to the hype.
So add hydro in to pad the numbers for energy from “Green” sources.

Reply to  Gunga Din
February 7, 2024 10:58 am

So add hydro in to pad the numbers”

Except that when China said they were going to reach X% renewables…

… they were already there. !

observa
February 7, 2024 6:20 am

I think we should differentiate between reliable energy (coal oil gas biofuel and nuclear) from fickle energy (weather dependent) leaving energy storage separate.

William Howard
Reply to  observa
February 7, 2024 8:59 am

Intermittent

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  William Howard
February 7, 2024 1:38 pm

I like the term “fickle” more than “intermittent.” Intermittent could be considered “periodic”, with availability or lack thereof on a known, reliable schedule. Fickle drives home the random, sporadic availability of wind and solar. It’s energy you can’t count on.

Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
February 8, 2024 7:46 am

The predictability of the intermittency is no mitigation. It still requires just as much extra to compensate. We know there is no sun in winter or at night, It doesn’t help.

Ray Sanders
Reply to  observa
February 7, 2024 4:00 pm

I prefer the term Stochastic

February 7, 2024 6:24 am

They should use cost/benefit analysis.

Scissor
Reply to  scvblwxq
February 7, 2024 8:14 am

Problem is, politicians value contributions from lobbyists as a primary benefit.

2hotel9
February 7, 2024 6:36 am

Renewable energy? Ya mean oil, coal, gas, wood, hydro and nuclear? Those are currently the only known “renewable” energy sources. Those and agriculture, of course, for energy produced directly by people.

jebstang66
February 7, 2024 6:52 am

I agree that the term renewable energy is a redundant term only half of the issue. There is nothing renewable about the energy gathering devices used in solar and wind for instance. A hell of a lot of mining has to take place and no one thinks that is green nor environmentally friendly.

We should be more concerned about energy density as this results in less resource drain per KWh. Cheap power is the primary reason a massive portion of the world’s population has been lifted out of poverty. However, we still have a long ways to go and going backwards with less dense energy production such as wind and solar will create a growing deficit to the world’s poor due to cost and intermittency.

So we need to eliminate common climate buzzwords which are untruthful and deal with facts and tradeoffs. There is no such thing as “net zero” in a realistic world. There is a world with reduction targets as long as we are moving to higher density and not backwards to lower density energy production.

Reply to  jebstang66
February 7, 2024 7:51 am

mining has to take place and no one thinks that is green nor environmentally friendly.

As the masthead of the California Mining Journal said, “Without Mining There Is No Civilization”. No mining would mean a return to chipping arrowheads out of flint and digging up gardens with sharp sticks. All travel would be by foot, raft, or horseback. The idea that humans can devise a world in which they can live without creating externalities for themselves and other forms of life is and will always be impossible.

sherro01
Reply to  jebstang66
February 7, 2024 1:09 pm

Jeb,
“Mining seen as NOT green and environmentally friendly.”
People breath air. They mine air with every breath. It is regarded as vital to life. Nobody brands everyone else as NOT green and environmentally friendly.
Mining is as essential to life as air is. Stop mining overnight, see most people in the world dead within a year.
The guideline is not about mining being green and environmentally friendly. That is no more than sledging by small minded unhappy people who have no idea of the value of mining. It is far easier to sit in an armchair to criticise mining as automatically bad (because we say so) than to get a job doing mining and getting actual, relevant learning.
Propaganda is a miserable hobby. Geoff S

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  jebstang66
February 8, 2024 3:36 am

There is a world THAT DOESN’T NEED “reduction targets,” because CO2 emissions DO NO HARM that is demonstrable.

February 7, 2024 7:10 am

I think you have missed the whole point which is that the whole argument should be about whether “renewables” are necessary at all.
They are perhaps necessary only if you think that more CO2 in the atmosphere is a problem.

Reply to  Oldseadog
February 7, 2024 9:03 am

Wind and solar grid penetration at 5% harmless, 10% nuisance, 15% expensive waste, 20% grid destabilizing and economically destructive, 25% insane.

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
February 7, 2024 6:37 pm

Wind and solar is harmful to pocketbooks at any percent penetration

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
February 8, 2024 3:42 am

Harmless to the grid maybe, but not harmless overall. Colossal waste of resources and land, killers of birds bats and insects, harmful to any humans living close to them (infrasound) and create completely needless toxic waste streams and piles on non-recyclable debris.

All while producing no useful power, since its delivery cannot be guaranteed where or when needed.

February 7, 2024 7:44 am

Story tip: Maori bloke who chopped down the tree atop One Tree Hill in Auckland gets to take 7 big climate ‘polluters’ to court for causing too much “Climate Change!”.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/508553/iwi-leader-mike-smith-gets-his-day-in-court-against-seven-major-emitters

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Chris Nisbet
February 8, 2024 3:46 am

Sounds like your Supreme Court clearly has its head shoved firmly and deeply up its ass. 🙄

February 7, 2024 7:48 am

Wind and solar Good
CO2 Baaaaaaaaaad

Pretty much sums up the opposing viewpoint.

JC
February 7, 2024 7:57 am

Definitions

This is an existential not teleological exercise. It’s about how to couch stuff based on someone’s definition of morality not reality. What happened to the Americans who demanded cheap energy? It got mind controlled from clear thinking goal directed into the religious realm of morality. this is totally nuts. Free markets are dead, it’s just banter. We are beyond freedom and dignity and have entered the realm of B.F. Skinner’s psych-tech dystopia.

  • Tax subsidized pay twice energy energy vs competitive market energy, (if it exists).
  • Non-dispatchable energy vs dispatchable energy
  • Storage/battery dependent energy vs non-battery storage dependent energy
  • Expensive energy vs cheap energy.
  • Politically imposed energy vs Politically constrained energy
  • Politically imposed-tax subsidized energy vs politically leveraged supply side colluded market derived energy
  • Left energy vs right energy.
  • ad nauseum

I

JC
Reply to  JC
February 7, 2024 9:53 am

Cheap energy vs ad nauseum political BS.

  • if future tech (such as SC Lk-99) brings cheap energy then YES
  • If Natural gas is cheap the YES
  • If nuke is cheap then YES
  • If Oil is cheap then YES
  • If coal is cheap then YES
  • If solar is cheap then YES
  • If Wind is cheap then YES
  • If Hydrogen is cheap then YES

everything else is BS.

Right now my answer is NO to all cause none of them are cheap enough. So I am taking my own personal demand side actions to cut energy costs… not to save the planet or appease the BS in social media but because I must be able to afford my cigar, three Nun’s pipe tobacco, trips Cape May and Chincoteague and lovely Pay’Doc vino. LOL!!

It is stupid to pay 20-25% of your after TAX: IRS/STATE and FICA and Health care premiums income on energy. The problem is 1/2 middle class became wealthy and are happy to burn money and the poverty level folks have tax payors pay for there energy. Those in the middle get stuck with the energy burden. I feel for those middle class folks who live in cities and suburbia and totally dependent on colluded and tax subsidized markets for everything.

I can walk, ride a horse buggy, car pool, ride my bike, drive 55 with a big sign on my car…slow down to lower prices, heat my house at 58, grow my own food, cut wood and burn it…. all much cheaper options.

So all this political yap, is worthless because I don’t have cheap energy.

I will vote for the first person who has actionable cheap energy solutions.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  JC
February 8, 2024 3:53 am

Wind and solar can never be cheap, because they have to be backed up 100% by REAL power plants when the wind doesn’t blow at the right speeds (or at all) or the Sun doesn’t shine, respectively.

Building two separate systems to do the same job IS, BY DEFINITION, more expensive.

When they mention the truth, nobody seems to pay attention.

“Under my plan, electricity prices WILL NECESSARILY SKYROCKET.” – Barack Obama

JC
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
February 8, 2024 8:48 am

Not sure what will be cheap and not cheap in the future All that matters is that is ain’t cheap now. My point is who cares what the energy input is if it is the cheapest input. Right now natural gas is the cheapest option for everything.

February 7, 2024 8:01 am

Article says:”WorldWatch says we could run out of iron ore by 2070.”

There is said to be hundreds of years of taconite available in the Tilden Mine. If 2070 is anywhere near accurate then Cleveland Cliffs is a company running on empty.

You didn’t mention methane hydrates which could supply thousands of years of energy. We have lots of energy we are lacking in will to use it. Fear of CO2 is driving us to do insanely stupid things.

Reply to  mkelly
February 7, 2024 8:36 am

” Fear of CO2 is driving us to do insanely stupid things.”

Almost exclusively the domain of the left, and assorted swamp rats who pretend they’re on the right.

The hard core Marxists don’t give a damn about CO2. Just another cause to bring the peasants closer to the utopian dream they have in mind for us. The useless idiots, on the other hand, are into the cause with all their hearts; they haven’t the brains for analytical thought. .

February 7, 2024 8:27 am

A small step in the UK

Electric cars are not ‘zero emission’, says advertising watchdogCarmakers ordered to take account of CO2 used in manufacturing and charging

Electric cars cannot be advertised as completely “zero emission” because of the carbon dioxide that is generated when they are made and charged, the advertising watchdog has declared.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/07/electric-cars-are-not-zero-emission-advertising-watchdog/

Paywalled unfortunately

1saveenergy
Reply to  Ben_Vorlich
February 7, 2024 9:20 am

Chariots of fire
Electric cars are not ‘zero emission’, particularly when they explode !!!!
.
Here is the text from the Telegraph …
.
Electric cars are not ‘zero emission’, says advertising watchdogCarmakers ordered to take account of CO2 used in manufacturing and charging
Matt Oliver, Industry Editor 7 February 2024 • 12:55pm
Related Topics

Net Zero,Electric cars,Automotive industry584

Electric cars cannot be advertised as completely “zero emission” because of the carbon dioxide that is generated when they are made and charged, the advertising watchdog has declared.
In a ruling that will change how electric vehicles (EVs) are promoted, the Advertising Standards Authority has banned carmakers from referring to them as zero emission unless they make clear this is only while driving. 
The decision emerged as the regulator criticised BMW for describing its range of EVs as “zero emission cars” in Google searches. 
In the ruling, the ASA said: “We understood that when electric vehicles were driven no emissions were produced, unlike a car with a petrol or diesel engine where emissions came from the tailpipe. 
“However, in other circumstances, such as the manufacture or charging of an electric vehicle using electricity from the national grid, emissions were generated.
“For that reason an ad that featured a “zero emissions” claim, that did not make explicitly clear that it was related to the reaction of the vehicle while it was being driven was likely to mislead.”

It is understood to be the first time the ASA has issued such a ruling on cars and comes amid a crackdown by the regulator on so-called greenwashing, where companies over-promote their eco credentials.
However, the ASA’s stance appears at odds with that of the Government, which is calling battery-powered EVs “zero emission vehicles” for the purposes of the newly introduced ZEV mandate.
The mandate requires carmakers to make EVs an ever-bigger proportion of their sales, rising steadily from 22pc this year to 80pc by 2030. 

With manufacturers under pressure to sell ever-high numbers of EVs, the ASA’s ruling will be a fresh headache. 
While a typical battery EV creates no emissions at the tailpipe while driving, carbon dioxide (CO2) is generated if they are charged from Britain’s power grid because of its heavy reliance on gas.
Meanwhile around eight tonnes of CO2 equivalent is generated when an EV is manufactured, according to the International Energy Agency.
That includes 1.4 tonnes related to the battery’s critical minerals, 1.2 tonnes during the battery’s assembly and then another 5.4 tonnes when the full vehicle is manufactured.
By comparison, making a typical internal combustion engine (ICE) car creates about six tonnes of CO2 equivalent. 
However, the lifetime emissions of an EV are generally far less, at around 11.7 tonnes of CO2 for charging compared to 35.9 tonnes of CO2 created by the fuel for ICE cars.

JC
Reply to  1saveenergy
February 7, 2024 1:50 pm

The EV decision

Existential vs Teleological approach to EV decision making. Basic assumption: climate is a non-factor because it is a non-problem. Apart from being a political problem, it has no basis in reality. It is nothing more than a false-morality bar (existential) that power grabbers want everyone to jump over. I am not jumping (teleological)

Clean air is a reasonable consideration; emissions are a thing. In some places smog is a real problem so reducing emissions helps everyone. EV’s might help to solve the problem if the plant that generates the electricity has far less emissions than the cars burning gas. So in high smog regions paying a extra dough to drive an EV maybe worth it.,, ,maybe not!

Everywhere else it’s a waste of money….why? because of dumb tech battery.

If I could buy an EV that cost 10% less to buy and run, than my gas car on average, I would buy one. No Brainer The only available battery is a dumb and expensive battery, and will remain dumb and expensive for the foreseeable future.

Better yet, If I had the capacity to generate (regardless of input), store and distribute all my own electricity and run an EV at a total cost reduction of running a car and total energy cost by 25% or more (including the initial capital costs and depreciation), I would do it. No brainer. PA is passing anti-off grid laws with a carbon tax, meanwhile my only solution is a dumb battery or just keep on keeping on with gasoline, oil and grid power (teleological)

Until a smart cheap battery comes along, I will drive my 2002 mercury Sable until I die or I am forced to stop driving, walk a lot, ride my bike and think about getting a horse for local trips.

I wonder if I will ever see cheap energy again in my life time (irony is the world is glutted with fossil fuel).. Someday, when the all existential solutions to all the non-problems reduces the population to the point that the existential has to give way to the teleological because the power grabbers won, then decentralized efficient and cheap energy production is the only way….. maybe then cheap energy will return.

Yes, and until then, the only way to keep the power grabbers from winning is cheap energy, which does require a clear political solution. It is the only way to cut the BS and regain our senses. The world is glutted with fossil fuel …time to frack on and bring true liberty and competitions to the energy markets and push the morality mind controllers, energy market megalomaniacs and politicians off their high horse

Reply to  JC
February 7, 2024 6:14 pm

“and think about getting a horse for local trips.” That one’s a ‘dead horse’… it farts.

JC
Reply to  sturmudgeon
February 8, 2024 8:58 am

LOL, if you live in suburbia, then it all farts there…especially the dogs. LOL. Here in PA in my local community, horses are a legit form of transportation. Next to the EV charging spots is a horse tie up zone in the Giant parking lot.

Many middle class even upper middle class families use horse and buggy, grow there own hay, have pastures, own their land and live on pennies and don’t pay FICA, and pay very little in taxes. Some have no electricity and heat with wood off their property alone. They raise much of there own food.
They’re not worried like the rest of us. They ignored the pandemic. They have plenty of high quality meat and other food stuffs and sell stuff in bulk. The are impervious to mind control and cannot be leveraged because they do not have internet. They know how to do stuff that no one else in America knows how to do anymore.

And they don’t worry about medical care unless it is urgent. They do not have a dream surgery list or go to the hairdressers to dye their hair or have a bucket list of stuff they want to do before they die, they have been doing it all their lives.

Lifestyle choices even if they go against the grain of our consumeristic, central market colluded and controlled society are at liberty.

JC
Reply to  JC
February 8, 2024 9:02 am

They (horse and buggy Mennonites) are the most conservative people in the world. They know how to solve for pattern for themselves and their families. If there isn’t a problem they don’t seek solutions. If there is a problem, they adopt tech only if it solves two more real problems. In addition, they have to be assured that the tech solution will not cause new problems in the future before they adopt it. If they adopt a tech solution it has to fit into the grid of all the household & family economic activity they are engaged in. They are not easily sold and never care about what the Jones family is buying or doing.

We may not want to be horse and buggy people but their thought process would do well to rub off a little on the rest of us.

Ancient Wrench
February 7, 2024 8:43 am

Wind, solar and tidal are not energy sources, they are energy-gathering systems with large upfront investment and long payouts for intermittent power.

Reply to  Ancient Wrench
February 7, 2024 4:53 pm

No generating plant is an energy source. They are all means of converting some form of energy to a different, more generally useful form.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  AndyHce
February 8, 2024 4:08 am

OK, but to cut through issues of the pedantic variety, coal, oil, gas and nuclear power plants produce lots of reliable and useful energy, while wind and solar and tidal are basically energy SINKS when the notion of USEFUL energy (when and where needed) is considered.

If they truly provided a “better” way of producing energy as their proponents insist, no government mandates, subsidies, salable/transferable “tax credits” etc. would be needed. Private industry would build the eagerly and run those old fashioned power plants out of business.

But then there’s reality.

strativarius
February 7, 2024 8:54 am

Time to retire whole policies

“”One of the first councils in Britain to ban weedkiller has dropped the strategy after streets and footpaths became choked with weeds…

Brighton and Hove was branded a “city of triffids” after the council imposed a ban on the use of glyphosate – the active ingredient in most weedkillers – in 2019.

Now, after five years of complaints, the council has admitted the situation had become untenable and has voted to reintroduce glyphosate. Councillors said it was time to take back the streets””
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/24/brighton-reverses-weedkiller-ban-after-five-years/

Reply to  strativarius
February 7, 2024 9:53 am

Brighton performs an important function as a laboratory for idiotic Green policies so that the rest of the UK can avoid them.

Reply to  Graemethecat
February 7, 2024 3:47 pm

Come off it !

Do you really think that other greenie councils won’t still decide to ban glyphosate. !

They would look at Brighton’s failure as a feature that proves it can be done.

Reply to  bnice2000
February 7, 2024 4:54 pm

Yep, the council member’s income wasn’t negatively effected.

Reply to  bnice2000
February 7, 2024 6:17 pm

G. did say it was a “laboratory for”… a lab is used to ‘test’.

February 7, 2024 8:58 am

Russell is certainly correct about renewables being a misnomer when ruinous is a far superior term for wind and solar. The target audience, considering the level of depth in the writing, seems appropriate for 15-year-old Republicans and 25-year-old Democrats. The suggestion of thermal solar storage is an overreach, Ivanpah at 33% natural gas for maintaining molten salt temperature should slam the door on using solar for that purpose. However, the technology has merit for nuclear having higher and consistent temperature.

William Howard
February 7, 2024 8:58 am

This all stems from the belief that CO2 is a problem and that removing CO2 from the atmosphere solves the problem. Putting aside the fact that CO2 is not a problem and that more of it is good for the earth and it’s inhabitants (see the CO2 Coalition web site), the amount of CO2 that could be eliminated from the atmosphere is so small that it wouldn’t change the composition of the atmosphere at all; and if we are not changing the composition of the atmosphere in any meaningful way how is the climate being affected. The total CO2 in the atmosphere is estimated to be only 4 one hundredths of 1 percent but the vast majority of that (some estimates as hinge as 97%) is naturally occurring which can’t be removed unless man can figure out how to survive without breathing. Spending trillions to remove something like 1 one hundredth of 1 % of the atmosphere which will destroy all the progress man has made over the last 100+ years is absurd. It’s all a scam and a huge waste of resources.

Reply to  William Howard
February 7, 2024 9:45 am

‘This all stems from the belief that CO2 is a problem and that removing CO2 from the atmosphere solves the problem.” 
_____________________________________________

Left-wing liberal democrats are useless innumerate idiots.

JC
Reply to  Steve Case
February 7, 2024 2:38 pm

The ground level operatives and mouth pieces in the medias and schools are lefties but the stakeholder boys at the center of the energy and tech markets are more like dialectical eugenics crowd rearing it’s ugly head in Europe in the1930’s. Even Putin at Davos’ a year before he invaded Ukraine made the same parallel with 1930’s and predicated wars of everyone fighting with everyone. Obviously, take that with a grain of salt.

Reply to  William Howard
February 7, 2024 4:58 pm

The small percentage of additional CO2 does appear to be a significant benefit as far as plant growth goes. Whatever the truth may be, there is no evidence that an equal change in the other direction might not produce some different but comparably valuable result.

Reply to  William Howard
February 7, 2024 6:20 pm

This, and similarly Common Sense posts are not ‘getting through’ the stacks of $$ that are in the way.

Coeur de Lion
February 7, 2024 9:06 am

‘Traditional’ is a nice word, so is ‘Biomass’. So Alsrmists like ‘Traditional Biomass’ as a cover up for the burning of habitats, trees, sugar cane, dung by the 600 million who lack elecyr in order to live. What they dare not admit is that in terms of global energy production traditional biomass produces THREE TIMES THE ENERGY of all the ‘renewable’ panels and windmills in the world. A disgrace to the human race for which alarmists are much to blame.

Coeur de Lion
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
February 7, 2024 9:07 am

Electricity

February 7, 2024 9:16 am

Joe Biden just did the rarest thing in US politics: he stood up to the oil industryBill McKibben

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/07/joe-biden-big-oil-lng-permits

The Biden administration suspended new permits for natural gas terminals. Can we see more of this kind of backbone?

Ten days ago Joe Biden did something remarkable, and almost without precedent – he actually said no to big oil.

His administration halted the granting of new permits for building liquefied natural gas (LNG) export terminals, something Washington had been handing out like M&Ms on Halloween for nearly a decade. It’s a provisional “no” – Department of Energy experts will spend the coming months figuring out a new formula for granting the licenses that takes the latest science and economics into account – but you can tell what a big deal it is because of the howls of rage coming from the petroleum industry and its gaggle of politicians.

And you can tell something else too: just how threadbare their arguments have become over time. Biden has called their bluff, and it’s beautiful to watch.

Meanwhile,

Why German gas importers are angry with the US over pause on new LNG export permits | DW News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SXy-M32kqg

President Joe Biden has put a halt on the issuing of new LNG export permits. The White House says it will help limit costs to American households and protect the environment. But there is concern in Europe countries that it’ll threaten their energy security. They’ve become increasingly reliant on US LNG since ending imports of Russian pipeline gas. We discuss if they are right to be concerned with Olga Khakova from the Global Energy Center in Washington.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
February 7, 2024 6:25 pm

Is the guardian/Bill McKibbon using windmills and solar panels to provide the energy to shovel up this shite?

February 7, 2024 9:19 am

Great image at the top. I guess the old guy represents Western Civilization, getting read to die. An enhancement would be to add some bird choppers in the water.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
February 8, 2024 4:16 am

And maybe some dead birds and dead whales floating by…

February 7, 2024 9:32 am

The UN defines Renewable energy as “energy derived from natural sources that are replenished at a higher rate than they are consumed.”

Going by this definition, we have no “renewable energy” sources. Solar and wind power may seem to qualify due to their fuel being “renewable,” but building the machines to harness sun and wind is certainly not; in fact, it’s less sustainable than fossil fuels…

February 7, 2024 9:42 am

Wind and solar are “renewable” in the sense that the needed infrastructure must be rebuilt or renewed on a very short time scale compared to fossil fuel, hydro and nuclear sources of electricity. This fact makes them, for practical purposes not renewable at all because the materials needed to build that infrastructure are clearly limited in our present state and there isn’t nearly enough even to build the “net Zero” fantasy world that “progressive”, uncritical politicians and policy makers are proposing.

February 7, 2024 10:05 am

The pocket calculator I used at work was a Texas Instruments TI-36X Solar.
I recently came across my old TI-1706. It says on the front that it is “Light Powered”.
(Strange the TI-36X Solar still worked at night.)

Reply to  Gunga Din
February 7, 2024 5:07 pm

still worked at night

In the dark?
I’ve had a few photo-electric cell powered calculators that worked anytime they could be close to a desk lamp. Power demand for such circuits just isn’t that great.

Reply to  AndyHce
February 8, 2024 8:59 am

No, not in the dark but via “light”. Not necessarily from the Sun.
The old one was more correctly labeled, “Light Powered”.

I should have ended “(Strange the TI-36X Solar still worked at night.)” with a 😎
My bad. 8-(

Reply to  Gunga Din
February 7, 2024 6:27 pm

rechargeable battery?

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  sturmudgeon
February 8, 2024 4:37 am

You can tell if they sometimes self-ignite.

nyeevknoit
February 7, 2024 10:05 am

Interesting long article explaining the soft and meaningless definitions used in various political promotions.
A bit in the weeds, albeit correctly done, but not very helpful in policy development for the provision of current and future electricity requirements.

All energy sources should be described by their ability to serve customers where and when needed with the capacities the customer’s equipment demands.
Inadequate, unreliable, unstable and unpredictable capacities are not useful.

Suggest using the firm electric grid parameter of dispatchability of capacity.

There are two types:

Those sources that have a specific output capacity, with predictable run times ( energy),
and those that have unpredictable capacity in amounts or run times.

Policies and discussions must start with the same definitions.
Looking forward to Part 2.
Thanks.

mleskovarsocalrrcom
February 7, 2024 10:40 am

Looking forward to following ‘parts’ of this thread. Russell so far has managed to lift the curtain on the so called “renewable” narrative but has avoided the political side of the story which I believe is the real problem. The whole purpose of promoting renewables is to kill Capitalism. It’s been said by many AGW promoters that it’s not about temperature but about replacing Capitalism …. with Marxism. Logic and science won’t win this propaganda war unless science and logic get at least equal media coverage. If we wait until “I told you so” it will be too late.

Bob
February 7, 2024 12:09 pm

Very nice Russell. Written in easy to understand language that all of us can understand. I agree completely with you. In addition to your discussions of the problems using the terms renewable and non renewable I would add the deliberate dishonesty of those in the CAGW crowd for using them. It wasn’t an accident.

The Dark Lord
February 7, 2024 1:41 pm

I prefer the term “replaceable” since windmills and solar panels have to be replaced every 10-15 years …

February 7, 2024 2:37 pm

BATTERY SYSTEM CAPITAL COSTS, OPERATING COSTS, ENERGY LOSSES, AND AGING
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-system-capital-costs-losses-and-aging

EXCERPT:
.
Annual Cost of Megapack Battery Systems; 2023 pricing
.
Assume a system rated 45.3 MW/181.9 MWh, and an all-in turnkey cost of $104.5 million, per Example 2
Amortize bank loan for 50% of $104.5 million at 6.5%/y for 15 years, $5.484 million/y
Pay Owner return of 50% of $104.5 million at 10%/y for 15 years, $6.765 million/y (10% due to high inflation)
Lifetime (Bank + Owner) payments 15 x (5.484 + 6.765) = $183.7 million
.
Assume battery daily usage for 15 years at 10%, and loss factor = 1/(0.9 *0.9)
Battery lifetime output = 15 y x 365 d/y x 181.9 MWh x 0.1, usage x 1000 kWh/MWh = 99,590,250 kWh to HV grid; 122,950,926 kWh from HV grid; 233,606,676 kWh loss

(Bank + Owner) payments, $183.7 million / 99,590,250 kWh = 184.5 c/kWh
Less 50% subsidies (ITC, depreciation in 5 years, deduction of interest on borrowed funds) is 92.3c/kWh
At 10% usage, (Bank + Owner) cost, 92.3 c/kWh
At 40% usage, (Bank + Owner) cost, 23.1 c/kWh

Excluded costs/kWh: 1) O&M; 2) system aging, 1.5%/y, 3) 19% HV grid-to-HV grid loss, 3) grid extension/reinforcement to connect battery systems, 5) downtime of parts of the system, 6) decommissioning in year 15, i.e., disassembly, reprocessing and storing at hazardous waste sites.
.
NOTE: The 40% throughput is close to Tesla’s recommendation of 60% maximum throughput, i.e., not charging above 80% full and not discharging below 20% full, to achieve a 15-y life, with normal aging

NOTE: Tesla’s recommendation was not heeded by the owners of the Hornsdale Power Reserve in Australia. They added Megapacks to offset rapid aging of the original system, and added more Megapacks to increase the rating of the expanded system.
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-hornsdale-power-reserve-largest-battery-system-in-australia

COMMENT ON CALCULATION
Regarding any project, the bank and the owner have to be paid, no matter what.
Therefore, I amortized the bank loan and the owner’s investment
If you divide the total of the payments over 15 years by the throughput during 15 years, you get the cost per kWh, as shown.
According to EIA annual reports, almost all battery systems have throughputs less than 10%. I chose 10% for calculations.
A few battery systems have higher throughputs, if they are used to absorb midday solar and discharge it during peak hour periods of late-afternoon/early-evening.
They may reach up to 40% throughput. I chose 40% for calculations
Remember, you have to draw about 50 units from the HV grid to deliver about 40 units to the HV grid, because of a-to-z system losses. That gets worse with aging.
A lot of people do not like these c/kWh numbers, because they have been repeatedly told by self-serving folks, battery Nirvana is just around the corner, which is a load of crap.

February 7, 2024 2:40 pm

World’s Largest Offshore Wind System Developer Abandons Two Major US Projects as Wind/Solar Bust Continues 
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/world-s-largest-offshore-wind-system-developer-abandons-two-major
.
EXCERPT

US/UK Governments Offshore Wind Goals
1) 30,000 MW of offshore by 2030, by the cabal of climate extremists in the US government 
2) 36,000 MW of offshore by 2030, and 40,000 MW by 2040, by the disconnected-from-markets UK government
.
Those US/UK goals were physically unachievable, even if there were abundant, low-cost financing, and low inflation, and low-cost energy, materials, labor, and a robust, smooth-running supply chain, to place in service about 9500 MW of offshore during each of the next 7 years, from start 2024 to end 2030, which has never been done before in such a short time. See article

US/UK 66,000 MW OF OFFSHORE WIND BY 2030; AN EXPENSIVE FANTASY  
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/biden-30-000-mw-of-offshore-wind-systems-by-2030-a-total-fantasy

NOTE: During an interview, a commentator was reported to say” “renewables are not always reliable” 
That shows the types of ignorami driving the bus
The commentator should have said: Wind and solar are never, ever reliable 
.
US Offshore Wind Electricity Production and Cost

Electricity production about 30,000 MW x 8766 h/y x 0.40, lifetime capacity factor = 105,192,000 MWh, or 105.2 TWh. The production would be about 100 x 105.2/4000 = 2.63% of the annual electricity loaded onto US grids.

Electricity Cost, c/kWh: Assume a $550 million, 100 MW project consists of foundations, wind turbines, cabling to shore, and installation, at $5,500/kW.

Production 100 MW x 8766 h/y x 0.40, CF = 350,640,000 kWh/y
Amortize bank loan for $385 million, 70% of project, at 6.5%/y for 20 y, 9.824 c/kWh.
Owner return on $165 million, 30% of project, at 10%/y for 20 y, 5.449 c/kWh
Offshore O&M, about 30 miles out to sea, 8 c/kWh.
Supply chain, special ships, ocean transport, 3 c/kWh
All other items, 4 c/kWh 
Total cost 9.824 + 5.449 + 8 + 3 + 4 = 30.273 c/kWh
Less 50% subsidies (ITC, 5-y depreciation, interest deduction on borrowed funds) 15.137 c/kWh
Owner sells to utility at 15.137 c/kWh; developers in NY state, etc., want much more. See Above.

Not included: At a future 30% wind/solar on the grid:   
Cost of onshore grid expansion/reinforcement, about 2 c/kWh
Cost of a fleet of plants for counteracting/balancing, 24/7/365, about 2.0 c/kWh
In the UK, in 2020, it was 1.9 c/kWh at 28% wind/solar loaded onto the grid
Cost of curtailments, 2.0 c/kWh
Cost of decommissioning, i.e., disassembly at sea, reprocessing and storing at hazardous waste sites

February 7, 2024 2:46 pm

Two very expensive New Jersey Offshore wind projects, mostly supplied by European companies.
.
The turbines will be made in Europe, shipped by specialized European ships, elected by Europeans. 
New Jersey folks will be soooo lucky to get to do some of the maintenance, with mostly European replacement parts.
MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN
.
One project for 2400 MW to be completed in 2031/2032, FIRST YEAR cost $112.50/MWh, escalating at ?% for 20 years
.
The second project at 1342 MW, no completion date, FIRST YEAR cost $131.00/MWh, escalating at ?% for 20 years
The escalations are the NJ economy killers, which nitwit Murphy and co-conspirators are perpetrating 
.
If anyone has escalation %, please let me know

https://whyy.org/articles/new-jersey-board-public-utilities-offshore-wind-farms-invenergy-energy-attentive-energy/#:~:text=New%20Jersey%20approved%20two%20massive%20offshore%20wind%20projects%20Wednesday%2C%20expected,billion%20into%20the%20state%27s%20economy.

Here are some prices with no escalation
.
New York State had signed contracts with EU big wind companies for four offshore wind projects
Sometime later, the companies were trying to coerce an additional $25.35 billion (per Wind Watch) from New York ratepayers and taxpayers over at least 20 years, because they had bid at lower prices than they should have.
New York State denied the request on October 12, 2023; “a deal is a deal”, said the Commissioner 

Owners want a return on investment of at least 10%/y, if bank loans for risky projects are 6.5%/y, and project cost inflation and uncertainties are high 
The about 3.5% is a minimum for all the years of hassles of designing, building, erecting, and paperwork of a project
.
The project prices, with no subsidies, would be about two times the agreed contract price, paid by Utilities to owners.
.
The reduction is due to US subsidies provided, per various US laws
All contractors had bid too low. When they realized there would be huge losses, they asked for higher contract prices.
It looks like the contract prices will need to be at least $150/MWh, for contractors to make money. Those contract prices would be at least 60% higher than in 2021
.
Oersted, Denmark, Sunrise wind, contract price $110.37/MWh, contractor needs $139.99/MWh, a 27% increase
Equinor, Norway, Empire 1 wind, contract price $118.38/MWh, contractor needs $159.64/MWh, a 35% increase
Equinor, Norway, Empire 2 wind, contract price $107.50/MWh, contractor needs $177.84/MWh, a 66% increase
Equinor, Norway, Beacon Wind, contract price $118.00/MWh, contractor needs $190.82/MWh, a 62% increase
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/liars-lies-exposed-as-wind-electricity-price-increases-by-66-wake
.
NOTE: Empire Wind 2, 1260 MW, near Long- Island, was cancelled.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/equinor-bp-cancel-contract-sell-offshore-wind-power-new-york-2024-01-03/
.
NOTE: The above prices compare with the average New England wholesale price of about 5 c/kWh, during the 2009 – 2022 period, 13 years, courtesy of:
.
Gas-fueled CCGT plants, with low-cost, low-CO2, very-low particulate/kWh
Nuclear plants, with low-cost, near-zero CO2, zero particulate/kWh
Hydro plants, with low-cost, near-zero-CO2, zero particulate/kWh

February 7, 2024 3:26 pm

The Future of American Energy Production Must Include Nuclear
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-future-of-american-energy-production-must-include-nuclear ;

Authored by Tommy Tuberville via RealClear Wire,
.
EXCERPT

It’s the coldest time of the year, and the demand for energy is significantly higher as people try to warm their homes. 
According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), in Alabama seven out of ten homes rely on electric heating during the winter months.

Increasing demand is placing a strain on our power grid, and the Biden administration has no solution to the problem.

Ray Sanders
February 7, 2024 3:55 pm

Policy and legislation favoring renewables over other generation resources can encourage poor resource choices and hinder good resource alternatives.”
This is also a predetermined viewpoint in considering electricity (aka “generation”) as the all important distribution medium and energy source. Here in the UK the majority of domestic energy requirement is winter space heating currently met in the vast majority of homes (>85%) by mains gas. Electrifying this by heat pumps requires massive generation increase and electricity storage against intermittency of renewable sources. So why not consider other options rather than immediately jumping on an “electricitycentric” route. For example solar insolation can be efficiently collected thermally in summer, stored “cold” inter seasonally by thermo-chemical conversion and used in the winter – no batteries (or electricity) required.
Limiting options to those solely generating electricity is equally dangerous.

Reply to  Ray Sanders
February 7, 2024 5:36 pm

For example solar insolation can be efficiently collected thermally in summer, stored “cold” inter seasonally by thermo-chemical conversion and used in the winter – no batteries (or electricity) required

By what current technology? What is storage loss over warm, collection part of year? Can the net efficiency get above 25%?

Reply to  AndyHce
February 7, 2024 5:39 pm

What resources, such as concentrated CO2, are required?

Ray Sanders
Reply to  AndyHce
February 8, 2024 1:38 pm

“What resources, such as concentrated CO2, are required?” WTF has CO2 got to do with this?

Ray Sanders
Reply to  AndyHce
February 8, 2024 2:09 am

Here is a brief explanation of thermo chemical energy storage.
https://www.e-hub.org/thermochemical-materials.html
Take the associated links from there for a broader outline and that way you can answer those questions for yourself.

February 7, 2024 6:56 pm

 It is, however, clearly emerging that “renewable” and “nonrenewable” are dated terms who have outlived their usefulness. 

The distinction at this point in time is quite clear. “renewable” is the type of generation that is subsidised and non-renewable is the type that is not subsidised. Subsidised generation is the variety that is unsustainable without subsidies. And those subsidies should rightfully include leaning on reliable generators as required for free. There should be no payment for generators that cannot guarantee an output at a given time for netter than 8000 hours a year.

So better terms are “subsidised” and “unsubsidised”. And please do not play the CO2 is pollution card. CO2 is quite clearly beneficial to all living organisms.

dk_
February 7, 2024 8:48 pm

.A single, land-based, 6MW rated wind turbine requires a million tons of coal, gas, and oil to produce and operate over its planned life span. The estimate does not include site preparation.
.It will produce half of that rating – 3MW per hour (3MWh) or greater – for less than 24 total hours of its life span.
.It will produce some electricity for around 40% of its average production day, but every hour will require 30KW for system maintenance, monitoring, speed control and braking, steering and feathering, deicing and hazard lighting. ..This does not include power used to synchronize with the electrical distribution grid, or with other turbines.
..Retirement, demolition, salvage, and disposal will emit another 15 tons of carbon in fuel, explosives, other expendables, reclamation, and incineration. This does not include site restoration.
.No wind turbine energy, alone, has ever been used to produce a single replacement wind turbine. Wind turbine production is completely dependent on a “fossil” fuel economy and cheap energy generated from a “fossil” fuel supply.
.Renewable, as a term for wind turbine generated electricity, is patently false. As a term for public gullibility and commercial/political malfeasance, it has been shown to be perfectly apt in every election cycle.

observa
February 7, 2024 10:41 pm

You see the terms and conditions of the projects being too difficult for investors and project developers to take. So we are in a standstill
Wind power giants find little shelter from sector troubles (msn.com)
The market is not functioning anymore

Fickle energy needs more slushfunding now!