Michael Kelly: The green energy Net Zero plan will require a command economy

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT

By Paul Homewood

Imagine the USA in 2050 has a net-zero emissions economy, as President Joe Biden has pledged that it will (the UK is also committed to this).

Three very large, interrelated, and multidisciplinary engineering projects will need to have been completed. Transport will have been electrified. Industrial and domestic heat will have been electrified. The electricity sector – generation, transmission and distribution – will have been greatly expanded in order to cope with the first two projects, and will have ceased to use fossil fuels.
I have had a long career in industrial and academic engineering, and recently retired as Professor of Technology in electrical engineering at Cambridge University. I’ve spent some time looking into the feasibility of these ideas, and these are the facts.

At the moment the USA uses on average 7,768 trillion British Thermal Units of energy every month, most of which is supplied by burning fossil fuel either directly for heat or transport, or indirectly to generate electricity.
Because an internal combustion engine converts the energy stored in its fuel into transport motion with an efficiency of about 30 per cent, while electric motors are more than 90 per cent efficient at using energy stored in a battery, we will need to increase the US electricity supply by about 25 per cent to maintain transport in the USA at today’s level. Let’s assume that replacing today’s fossil-powered vehicles and trains with electric ones will cost no more than we would have spent replacing them anyway: it’s not really true but the difference is small compared to the rest of this. I should note however that a small part of today’s transport energy is used for aviation and shipping, which are much harder to electrify than ground transport, but we’ll ignore that for now.

Next we need to electrify all the heat. If this heat was provided by ordinary electric heaters, we would need an extra electrical sector equal to the size of today’s. But if we mostly use air-source and ground-source heat pumps, and assume a coefficient of performance of 3:1 – optimistic, but not wildly unreasonable – then we only need new grid capacity equivalent to 35 per cent of the size of the present grid for the heat task.

So far, the grid in 2050 will need to be more than 60 per cent bigger than its present size. We also need to work on the buildings. US building stock is made up of nearly 150 million housing units, commercial and industrial buildings, with an estimated floor space of 367 billion square feet. Some of this is well insulated, much of it is not. All of it would need to be, for our heat pumps to work at the efficiencies we need them to. Based on a UK pilot retrofit programme the national scale cost for this is $1 trillion per 15 million population. The figure in the USA could therefore be about $20 trillion. It might be as high as $35 trillion.

We should note here that as with transport, some specialist types of heating cannot at the moment be done electrically, for instance in primary steel production. These will involve extra costs if net zero is to be reached, but we’ll ignore that for now, even though we’re going to need an awful lot of steel.
Now let’s get the power grid decarbonised and make it 60 per cent bigger and more powerful. Taken together, the US electrical grid has been called the largest machine in the world: 200,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines and 5.5 million miles of local distribution ones. We will need to add a further 120,000 miles of transmission line. This will cost on the order of $0.6 trillion, based on US cost data.

The 5.5 million miles of local distribution lines will have to be upgraded to carry much higher currents. Most houses in the USA have a main circuit-breaker panel that allows between 100 and 200 amps (A) current into the house, although some new ones are rated at 300A. The 100A standard was set nearly a century ago, when the electric kettle was the largest single appliance. In a modern all-electric home, some of the new appliances draw rather higher currents: ground-source heat pumps may draw 85A on start-up, radiant hobs when starting up draw 37A, fast chargers for electric vehicles draw 46A, and even slow ones may draw 17A, while electric showers draw 46A. The local wiring in streets and local transformers were all sized to the 100-A limit. Most homes will need an upgraded circuit breaker panel and at least some rewiring, and much local wiring and many local substations will need upsizing. The UK costs have been estimated in detail at £1 trillion, which would scale to the order of $6 trillion on a per-capita basis.

As 60 per cent of the current electrical generation is fossil fuelled, we need to close all the fossil stations down and increase the remaining, non-fossil generation capacity four times over. There isn’t much scope for new hydropower, and so far carbon capture doesn’t exist outside fossil fuel production. Using a mixture of wind (onshore $1600/kW, offshore $6500/kW), solar ($1000/kW at the utility level) and nuclear ($6000/kW), the capital cost of this task alone is around $5 trillion, and we have not dealt with the enormous problem of wind and solar being intermittent.
So far we’re up to $32 trillion as the cost of providing the insulated buildings and the generation, transmission and distribution of electricity in a net-zero world. Although not all borne by households, this figure is of the order of $260,000 per US household.

Now let’s think about intermittency. Sometimes there is no wind and no sunshine, and our largely renewables-driven grid will have no power. Current hydropower storage would run a net-zero grid in the USA for a few hours; current battery capacity could do so for a few minutes. Net-zero advocates often suggest simply building huge amounts of battery storage, but the costs of this are colossal: 80 times as much as the power plants, hundreds of trillions of dollars. And indeed this is simply fantasy as the necessary minerals are not available in anything like the required amounts. If prices climbed, more reserves would become economic – but the prices are already impossibly high.

Straight away, we can see that a net-zero grid with a large proportion of renewables simply cannot be built. But for now let’s just ignore the storage problem and look at some more numbers.
The UK engineering firm Atkins estimates that a $1-billion project in the electrical sector over 30 years needs 24 or more professional, graduate engineers and 100 or more skilled tradespeople for the whole period. Scaling up these figures for the $12 trillion of electricity sector projects just described, we will need 300,000 professional electrical engineers and 1.2 million skilled tradespeople, full time, for the 30 years to 2050 on just this part of the net-zero project. Based on the budget, we might expect the buildings retrofit sector to need a similar workforce of roughly three million people. This is a combined workforce roughly the size of the entire existing construction sector.

Now let’s think about materials. A 600-megawatt (MW) combined-cycle gas turbine (CCGT) needs 300 tonnes of high-performance steels. We would need 360 5-MW wind turbines, each running at an optimistic average 33 per cent efficiency (and a major energy storage facility alongside which we are just ignoring as it would be impossibly expensive) to achieve the same continuous 600-MW supply. In fact, since the life of wind turbines at 25 years is less than half that of CCGT turbines, we would actually need more than 720 of them.
The mass of the nacelle (the turbine at the top of the tower) for a 5-MW wind turbine is comparable to that of a CCGT. Furthermore, the mass of concrete in the plinth of a single CCGT is comparable to the mass of concrete for the foundations of each individual onshore wind turbine, and much smaller than the concrete and ballast for each offshore one. We are going to need enormous amounts of high-energy materials such as steel and concrete: something like a thousand times as much as we need to build CCGT or nuclear powerplants, and renewed more frequently. This vast requirement is probably going to affect prices, both of materials and energy – and not in a good way – but for now we’ll just assume costs remain at something like current levels.

So we can see that the infrastructure parts of the net-zero project which are theoretically possible would cost comfortably in excess of $35 trillion and would require a dedicated and highly skilled workforce comparable to that of the construction sector as well as enormous amounts of materials. Net zero would also require several things which today are completely impossible: scalable non-fossil energy storage, very high temperature electrical industrial processes, serious electrical aviation and shipping. There would also be the matter of decarbonising agriculture. These things, if they can even be achieved, would multiply the cost at least several times over, to more than $100 trillion.

So the real cost of net-zero, or more likely of trying and failing to achieve it, would be similar to – or even more than – total projected US government spending out to 2050. There is no likelihood of that amount of money being diverted from other purposes under anything resembling normal market economics and standards of living.
The idea that net zero can be achieved on the current timelines by any means short of a command economy combined with a drastic decline in standards of living – and several unlikely technological miracles – is a blatant falsehood. The silence of the National Academies and the professional science and engineering bodies about these big picture engineering realities is despicable.
People need to know the realities of net zero.

Michael Kelly is Emeritus Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society, of the Royal Academy of Engineering, of the Royal Society of New Zealand, of the Institute of Physics and of the Institution of Engineering and Technology, as well as Senior Member of the Institute of Electronic and Electrical Engineering in the USA. He is a trustees of the Global Warming Policy Foundation.

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Milo
October 13, 2023 6:22 pm

Isn’t that the whole point?

Nevada_Geo
Reply to  Milo
October 13, 2023 7:40 pm

It has always been the whole point. No one gives up freedom to Marxists unless you scare the holy hell out of them. When you have 3rd grade children committing suicide over climate change you have the job done.

William Howard
Reply to  Milo
October 13, 2023 7:48 pm

Yep – A former head of the UNIPCC stated that the environmental movement is more about the destruction of capitalism than the climate

Reply to  William Howard
October 14, 2023 9:12 am

“Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental protection, says the German economist and IPCC official Ottmar Edenhofer. The next world climate summit in Cancun is actually an economy summit during which the distribution of the world’s resources will be negotiated.”

HB
October 13, 2023 6:37 pm

100 % correct

Tom in Florida
October 13, 2023 7:12 pm

So net zero really means we will all have zero in our bank accounts, wallets, dresser drawers, under our mattresses or buried in our back yards.

Bryan A
Reply to  Tom in Florida
October 13, 2023 10:12 pm

According to AOC everyone will be paid $174,000 annually before taxes. Then after taxes your Net income will be Zero

Reply to  Tom in Florida
October 14, 2023 5:46 am

Net zero hope, net zero future, net zero say, net zero legal position. Everybody except the elites in charge will be a net zero.

JD Lunkerman
Reply to  Tom in Florida
October 14, 2023 7:33 pm

Not zero in our bank accounts everyone will owe $300,000 per capita. Everyone except the 1% will be bankrupt and they will own everything, but be rewarded with no more tourists on the great beaches and ski slopes, etc of the world. Until they are tossed out of a window of course.

Bob
October 13, 2023 7:31 pm

Net zero is complete fiction and those who promote it are liars and cheats.

October 13, 2023 7:40 pm

Wait a minute. Aren’t Al Gore, John Kerry and Greta Thunberg owed an opportunity to come up with some numbers of their own? A copy of Mr. Kelly’s article needs to be sent to those three by certified mail so they can be sure to have the opportunity to read it and make an analysis that can be published. I can hardly wait to see what they have to say.

Reply to  general custer
October 13, 2023 8:14 pm

I’m sure they will all be as eager to debate as climate “scientists.”

spetzer86
Reply to  general custer
October 13, 2023 8:18 pm

There have been plenty of Leftist plans showing net-zero is completely possible, especially when you’re able to assume more than six impossible things before breakfast.

spetzer86
October 13, 2023 8:16 pm

Given all the Net-Zero crap going around, the club of future human beings on this planet is going to be pretty small, and none of us are in it.

Reply to  spetzer86
October 14, 2023 5:48 am

Everyone will need a club! Only way to take back their future!

Chris Hanley
October 13, 2023 9:23 pm

‘Net zero’ is the creed of the new state-sponsored religion and is as unchallengeable as the Nicene Creed was after Constantine I’s authorisation, heretics are cast out just as in the 4th Century CE.

CampsieFellow
Reply to  Chris Hanley
October 14, 2023 2:34 pm

Can you provide any evidence that Emperor Constantine I “authorised” the Nicene Creed? Some of his actions may have been based on the decisions reached at the Council of Nicaea but that is not the same thing as “authorisation”.

Mr.
October 13, 2023 9:28 pm

I wouldn’t be that concerned by a command economy run by say Berkshire Hathaway’s Warren Buffett

MarkW
October 13, 2023 10:15 pm

Ah, that old shiboleth about electric motors being more efficient than ICEs. They of course completely ignore all the steps electricity has to go through before it gets to that electric motor. Once that has been done, the efficiencies of both are getting pretty close to even. Also the fact that since EVs are substantially heavier than ICEV, they consume more power in the first place.

Reply to  MarkW
October 14, 2023 5:49 am

I see you didn’t follow my advice!

MarkW
Reply to  Richard Page
October 14, 2023 12:11 pm

Yup

Sweet Old Bob
Reply to  MarkW
October 14, 2023 7:01 am

And his shower amps does not include other usage at the same time ….
our 27Kw whole house water heater draws 112.5 amps at full load . 240 vac supply .

😉

MarkW
October 13, 2023 10:18 pm

Heat pumps may be more efficient than gas heaters in areas where winters don’t get cold. However for the other 75% of the country, heat pumps are a disaster, and they actually do convert into straight electric heaters for much of the cooling season.

Reply to  MarkW
October 14, 2023 5:52 am

The UK doesn’t have many places where the housing stock and annual temperatures make heat pumps viable. Why they went for heat pumps rather than, say, electric combi-boilers I’ll never know.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Richard Page
October 14, 2023 8:31 am

It’s the Climate Changed Committee. They didn’t have a clue so they just followed the crowd and the line that was being pushed in Europe.

corky
October 13, 2023 10:44 pm

Hi Prof Kelly,

Nicely presented if I may say so. Brings back fond memories of the engineering department at Cambridge.
You might consider an addendum to cover “green hydrogen” storage as proposed by the Royal Society for the UK.

Corky

James Snook
Reply to  corky
October 14, 2023 7:00 am

Prof. Kelly has been a voice of sanity in the U.K. since ‘Net Zero by 2050’ legislation was nodded through Parliament by our unthinking (to put it politely) Politicians. He tried to get the Climate Change Committee to attempt a sensible, engineering, costed, road map but was rebuffed. They continue to live in cloud cuckoo land.

The headline suggesting that a command economy will be required but Prof. Kelly doesn’t seem to be specifically saying that. Command economies attempting to drive grand projects are blunt instruments and history shows they create economic calamity and extreme economic pain for the populations living under them. Mao’s Great Leap Forward is a good example.

CampsieFellow
Reply to  James Snook
October 14, 2023 2:37 pm

Within the context of the UK, the Groundnuts scheme of Clement Attlee’s post-war Labour government is a good example.

James Snook
Reply to  CampsieFellow
October 14, 2023 2:51 pm

And Ugandan eggs if you remember, but they pale into insignificance in terms of the complexity and all pervading scope of the net zero by 2050 chimera.

There already elements of command economics being applied, hence the EV shambles, but the mind boggles at the potential catastrophe of its expansion.

Tom Johnson
Reply to  James Snook
October 14, 2023 5:26 pm

Command Economies have to deal with the same realities as free market Capitalism. You can’t fool Mother Nature. They have one additional problem, though. Command Economies don’t generate anywhere near the same wealth that free market capitalism generates.

October 13, 2023 11:07 pm

Based on a UK pilot retrofit programme the national scale cost for this is $1 trillion per 15 million population. The figure in the USA could therefore be about $20 trillion.

Upping the insulation in U.S. housing will not be nearly as costly as it will be for the U.K., so the total tab would be far less than $20 trillion.

Most U.S. homes are wood cavity wall construction, and since the 1950’s have had some level of insulation included. My folks bought an uninsulated house in the early 1960’s, and later had cellulose blown into the cavities inexpensively. Made the house much more comfortable in the winter.

British homes I’ve seen are (mostly) masonry, and a large proportion built before insulation was a concern. Retrofitting even the masonry walls built with cavities is problematic, with insertion and moisture troubles.

So most of the retrofitting has to be done with external insulation, which tends to trap moisture, which tends to degrade the mortar, or with interior insulation, cutting into available floor space.

Building lots in the U.K. are scarce and pricey. You can’t buy an old sow and tear it down for the lot, then rebuild the way you can in the U.S., because just buying the junker will eat up most of your savings, leaving not much money left to rebuild. A number of prejudices, regulations, and building standards peculiar to the U.K. also make both rebuilding and upgrading more expensive.

Insulating the British housing stock will be very beneficial, but it faces serious, expensive, difficulties. Their costs are not applicable as an indicator of U.S. costs.

Jim Karlock
October 13, 2023 11:24 pm

Sadly all of this waste is because our media refuses to look at facts that totally put the lie to a “climate crisis”. Every writer if a climate scare story should get flooded with emails pointing out undisputable climate facts.
Here is my start at those facts:
1.—-
1. The IPCC says the earth warmed less than 0.8 degree from 1850 up to 2012. See Pg. 209 of the IPCC WG1AR5_all_final.pdf 
2. Man only emits 6% of total annual CO2 emissions (Nature emits 94%). Add the numbers on the NASA diagram of the carbon cycle.
3. CO2 only causes 26-32% of the greenhouse effect. (H2O is 60-75%) see wikipedia greenhouse_effect page and Table 3 of: Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society Vol. 78, No. 2, February 1997 
4. We do not have enough data to say that hurricanes have increased. pg 178 of WG1AR5_all_final.pdf 
5. We do not have enough data to say that storms have increased. pg 178 of WG1AR5_all_final.pdf 
6. Sea level has been rising for centuries, it HAS NOT RISEN FASTER recently. Page 306 WG1AR5_all_final.pdf 
7. There is little, if any, global scale changes in the magnitude or frequency of floods. pg 230 of WG1AR5_all_final.pdf 
8. Confidence is low for a global-scale observed trend in drought or dryness pg 178 of WG1AR5_all_final.pdf 
9. Long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible. Page 774 of IPCC third Assessment Report (2001) Section 14.2.2.2
In view of this, why does anyone think we have a climate problem?
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/ipcc_says.html

2.—-
THE CLIMATE HAS ALWAYS CHANGED!
5000 years ago, there was the Egyptian 1st Unified Kingdom warm period  
4400 years ago, there was the Egyptian old kingdom warm period.
3000 years ago, there was the Minoan Warm period. It was warmer than now WITHOUT fossil fuels.
Then 1000 years later, there was the Roman warm period. It was warmer than now WITHOUT fossil fuels.
Then 1000 years later, there was the Medieval warm period. It was warmer than now WITHOUT fossil fuels.
1000 years later, came our current warm period. 
Climate alarmists are claiming that whatever caused those earlier warm periods suddenly quit causing warm periods, only to be replaced by man’s CO2, perfectly in time for the cycle of warmth every 1000 years to stay on schedule. Not very believable.
 
The entire climate scam crumbles on this one observation because it shows that there is nothing unusual about today’s temperature and thus CO2 is not causing warming or any unusual climate effects that are frequently blamed on warming.
Evidence that those warm periods actually occurred:   
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/climatehistory.html
Evidence that the Roman & Medieval warm periods were global: 
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/warm_periods.html
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/page216.html 

3.————
1. Our current climate started warming 200 years BEFORE man’s CO2 emissions started to rise . NOT before.
2. Previous Holocene warm periods were warmer than now.
3. Solar fits climate better than CO2
4. There is nothing unusual about today’s climate compared to before man emitted CO2.
5. Recent warming is a same rate as the late 1800s but now with much more of man’s CO2. (More of a cause should cause more effect.)
6. Man’s CO2 has never been proven to cause dangerous warming.
7. Man emits only 5% of annual CO2. Plus CO2 only causes 9-26% of greenhouse effect.
8. Human CO2 release warms the climate less than 0.03◦C  https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.01245.pdf
See DebunkingClimate.com for evidence

bobpjones
Reply to  Jim Karlock
October 14, 2023 2:38 am

One little thing you omitted from your table of facts. Each subsequent warming period, was cooler, than its predecessor. The inference, that we may be slowly heading towards another ice age.

Bryan A
Reply to  bobpjones
October 14, 2023 8:03 am

Unless the three Milankovitch cycles have suddenly (this time around in the last 880,000 yrs) ceased to have an influence on global climate, the next glaciation IS just ahead if not already starting.

bobpjones
Reply to  Bryan A
October 14, 2023 8:33 am

Exactly 😊

The Real Engineer
October 13, 2023 11:24 pm

Well thank you Professor, many of us professional Engineers have been saying this, in many cases directly to Governments, for at least 20 years! Why did it take you so long? In many cases your estimates are too low, and you have failed to include the huge supply needed to replace gas space heating, and the foolish idea of retrofitting everywhere with “heat pumps”, unless these are air to ait, and thus basically full air conditioning, which is very difficult to retrofit to existing buildings.

I completely agree with your impossibility analysis, but the Public simply don’t understand and the politicians are very deaf to any change in policy, because u-turns lose votes! The Greens are simply too ingnorant to even think about the problem, and of course many politicians can be bought off by vested interests.

An all electric UK would probably need a supply of 150GW, 24/7, in other words 3 times the present capacity, a capacity that at present is falling every day because plant replacement is with alleged renewables, not 24/7 fossil fuel equipment. Blackouts are inevitable if we have a cold still period this winter, which is very likely.

Reply to  The Real Engineer
October 14, 2023 12:54 am

An all electric UK would probably need a supply of 150GW, 24/7, in other words 3 times the present capacity…

Probably. Maybe a bit on the high side, but near enough. The critical case is January and February, a cold, calm, dark winter evening. There is no solar generation, hasn’t been any since November. There never is this far north. So the country is entirely dependent on wind. There is the usual blocking high to the southwest. We can tell roughly how this will work because we have the data from the current situation, before the EV and heat pump conversions.

There will be, this winter and pretty much every winter, a period of a week or ten days when the current 28GW of installed wind delivers less than 5GW, and for many of those days it will be under 0.5GW. Demand will be a bit north of 45GW. On average the current 28GW of wind delivers 7-8GW so about 25-30% of faceplate.

Translate it into the heat pump and EV scenario, with 150GW of wind installed, and demand will be somewhere north of 100GW. Supply will be under 15, and for several days under 1.5GW.

It cannot be made to work. Also that 150GW of wind, no. 30% of faceplate max is what wind delivers, and that is on average. To even supply the 100GW in the good windy days, and on average, not continuously, you are going to need 300GW+ of wind installed, faceplate. But then you’ll need gas for the calms.

You’ll need rapid start gas. 100GW plus, because you have to meet those days when 300GW of wind is delivering 1.5GW or less. So you have to be able to supply the total power needs of the entire country for days on end.

The whole idea is completely hare brained. And Nick, in these threads, is convinced that the savings in fuel will pay for it all. Of course it won’t – you are not talking combined cycle gas, because of the need for very rapid starts when the wind drops, but single cycle. That’s going to take 10 percentage points or more off the fuel efficiency of the gas. And its going to be kicking in all the time. Probably better than one third of the time, because demand and supply are not in synch.

Why does anyone think this can be made to work? Must be they all have liberal arts degrees and were trained on post modern literary criticism, and just don’t know how to think and plan.

honestyrus
Reply to  The Real Engineer
October 14, 2023 9:17 am

Yes, another electrical engineer here who has beating the same drum. Sadly, my “green” friends truly believe that wind/solar/renewables will be subject to some kind of Moore’s Law with price-performance doubling every year or two. They are, of course, utterly wrong.

So, finally, the harsh realities of the implausibility of Net Zero are starting to gain some traction in the mainstream media. I can only hope the peasants revolt and bring an end to the Net Zero fantasy. We’re not going to miss that goal by a little bit — we won’t even get remotely close to the ballpark.

MarkW
Reply to  honestyrus
October 14, 2023 12:19 pm

Moore’s law doesn’t even apply to computers anymore. As we start approaching physical limits the rate of improvement is slowing.

Coeur de Lion
October 14, 2023 12:23 am

But again Prof Kelly is talking about electricity generation only. Net Zero requires decarbonisation of aviation, shipping, agriculture, construction , your life and mine. What are the Climate Change Committee’s proposals? I cup my ear.

honestyrus
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
October 14, 2023 9:20 am

Indeed. Prof. Kelly explains why Net Zero in electricity production is utterly impractical. But electricity generation on represents somewhere around one third of total energy consumption.

Net Zero in ENERGY is a hopeless fantasy.

migueldelrio
October 14, 2023 12:24 am

‘Degrowth’ economics is another word for Malthusian economics, a hypothesis that we have been successfully treading since first proposed by Thomas Robert Malthus in his 1798 writings, An Essay on the Principle of Population.

October 14, 2023 1:53 am

To most intents, are we not already in a Command Economy…

  • you will buy an EV
  • you WILL stop using gas
  • you will insulate your house
  • you will buy a heat lump
  • you will wear a mask
  • you will work till you drop
  • you will pay ever more tax
  • you will get a vaxx
  • you will eat bugs & seaweed
  • you will do your laundry at 03:00…..
  • you will let your kids be brainwashed

Else you’re massively punished financially and or excluded from society, even before many of those things are punishments in themselves

An hour of your time?
“””The Countryside Is Incredibly Powerful If It Wants to Be, There’s a Lot of Anger There Now

Epoch Times Video

Bryan A
Reply to  Peta of Newark
October 14, 2023 8:09 am

Good list, bad phrasing

Thou Shalt buy an EV
Thou Shalt stop using gas
Thou Shalt insulate Thy house
Thou Shalt buy a heat pump
Thou Shalt NOT exit the house without wearing a mask
Thou Shalt work till thine drops
Thou Shalt pay ever more tax
Thou Shalt get a vaxx
Thou Shalt eat bugs & seaweed
Thou Shalt do thy laundry at 03:00am
Thou Shalt let thy kids be brainwashed

bobpjones
October 14, 2023 2:48 am

Prof Michael Kelly, has a couple of videos on Youtube, one with Tom Nelson. In those presentations, he primarily focusses on the UK, whereas this study, is aimed at the US.

One thing, he doesn’t actually mention it, I think he might underestimate the size of the electricity grid needed. As we know, the current grid is structured on the generators being situated close to the points of greatest demand, i.e. cities and industrial complexes.

If the source of electricity is shifting, then a grid, capable of carrying the supply from remote regions, will have to be built. As an example, one day in the UK, the greatest source of electricity, might come from turbines in the far north-west of Scotland, and the following day the south-east of England. And of course, with supply shifting, keeping the grid balanced will be a nightmare.

October 14, 2023 4:14 am

From the article: “The silence of the National Academies and the professional science and engineering bodies about these big picture engineering realities is despicable.”

Yes, all our science institutions have been corrupted by the unsubstantiated belief that CO2 is a dangerous gas that needs control.

“Unsubstantiated” being the key word here. These science organizations are not basing their CAGW positions, or their silence, on the facts, because there are no facts establishing that CO2 is dangerous, so basing one’s position on something not supported by the facts is not scientific. It’s the opposite of scientific.

Our science institutions are not scientific. They believe in things that don’t exist. Not scientific. And they are doing a destructive disservice to humanity.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
October 14, 2023 6:30 am

What we’re talking about is money, not climate. Academia in total, with some exceptions such as Professor Kelly, dip into a pool of funds supplied by government, business and NGOs to research the crisis of climate change, something that must be addressed as quickly as possible. They build facilities and hire “scientists” to identify the dimensions of this crisis with the available funds and then propose remedies the results of which no living person would ever see. These scientists, most of whom have law degrees or operate in the public policy sphere, move back and forth from academia to roles as government functionaries. Media enhances and spreads the academic story that a crisis exists. The average proletarian believes and his government representative must also accept this fantasy in order to stay in office. The public purse is then raided to finance businesses that have no other viability but in fighting an imaginary foe at an incredible expense.

This situation is reminiscent of the Reformation, one of the most significant events in western history, whose 500th anniversary in 2017 was very much ignored. The facts are difficult enough for the average person to understand that the population has been split on the basis of what amounts to a theology. Scientific academia and economics has failed in their role of enlightening society to important truths. They are at the root of the problem.

Reply to  general custer
October 14, 2023 9:12 am

National research academia knows the source of the income needed to expand their presence. It’s by finding existential problems to solve that require government funding. They’re actually a little late to the party. The legal profession has been in charge of this for a long time through their role as the introducers and interpreters of legislation and regulations and the arbitrators of disputes. Technical advances give the media a platform where the opinions of the most inconsequential figures can be used as click bait for various causes. Who cares what Leonardo de Caprio or Oprah Winfrey thinks about anything?

Blaming all this on “marxist” thinking misses the point completely. Rent-seeking and academic fraud have been going on since long before Marx. The educational system must be reigned in, or better yet, replaced. Educated people must be able to discriminate between fairy tales and reality. The incredible volume of federal,state and local mandates must be incinerated and simplified.

October 14, 2023 4:25 am

It’s well established that the current prosperity and security of developed nations is due to the progressive use of fossil fuels since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

The attached graph shows the rapid escalation of fossil-fuel use since 1950. But what’s interesting is the continuous, rapid increase since CO2 emissions became an alarm in the 1980’s.

If that increase in fossil fuel use, between 1980 and 2022, were to continue at the same rate for the next 50 years, then a real alarm could be justified, with regard to the diminishing reserves of fossil fuels, which could result in an economic catastrophe.

Whilst I believe that the alarm about the claimed devastating effects of CO2 emissions, is bunkum, I do think that the ‘unabated’, continual escalation of fossil-fuel use, is the real ‘potential’ disaster that could happen within the next 100 years, if we don’t discover ‘renewable’ sources of energy which are reasonable efficient.

Whilst I agree that ‘net zero’ by 2050 is economically unrealistic, the research into more efficient methods of renewable energy, could have a long-term benefit for the future and help avoid a major reliance upon fossil fuels for all our activities, which would eventually deplete the reserves of fossil fuels that are affordably mineable.

World-wide increase in fossil fuels.jpg
Reply to  Vincent
October 14, 2023 6:25 am

Whilst I enjoy the word whilst, once in a post is sufficient. Your “then real alarm could be justified” phrase is said with no evidence. Alarm about what? Why do we need to discover “renewable” sources of energy?

We have hundreds of years of coal, thousands of years of methane hydrates, and thousands of years of nuclear. And coupled with Canada there are hundreds of years of oil.

Do worry be happy.

Reply to  mkelly
October 14, 2023 10:36 am

And I would add, when economics dictate, liquid hydrocarbon fuels can always be manufactured.

MarkW
Reply to  mkelly
October 14, 2023 12:38 pm

We have hundreds of years of oil and gas, we have thousands of years of coal. Nuclear will last for 10’s of thousands of years. If by the time nuclear starts to run out, fusion become practical, then we have millions of years worth of power.

MarkW
Reply to  Vincent
October 14, 2023 12:36 pm

Oil won’t be cheap one day, and expensive the next, unless politicians are in control.
As demand grows, there will be a gradual increase in prices, which will mean that sources that are currently too expensive to tap, will start being tapped, which will limit the increase in prices.
Additionally, as prices increase, people will find ways to use energy more efficiently, just as they have been doing for the last century or more.
As prices rise, alternative forms of energy will become cost effective.

This disastrous future that haunts your nightmares is as fictional as the climate warming demons.

You also ignore the fact that using current technology, wind and solar simply don’t save much, if any energy. When you count in the energy needed to make and install wind and solar, the energy needed to uninstall and recycle/dispose of wind and solar, plus the energy needed to keep fossil fuel plants in warm standby, ready to take over whenever wind and solar fail, which they do all to often.

Your desire to find some excuse to justify switching to wind and solar, is misguided, at best.

If you really cared about reducing the use of fossil fuels, you would be demanding that every available hydro power site be exploited. You would be petitioning and protesting demanding that more, nuclear power plants be built.

FlaMan1
October 14, 2023 5:41 am

Clearly this Kelly guy is a shill for big oil and isnt nearly as qualified as Al Gore, Greta Thornberg, and Nobel Laureate Michael Mann. And who has even heard of any of these institutions? “Emeritus Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society, of the Royal Academy of Engineering, of the Royal Society of New Zealand, of the Institute of Physics and of the Institution of Engineering and Technology, as well as Senior Member of the Institute of Electronic and Electrical Engineering in the USA. He is a trustees of the Global Warming Policy Foundation.” (sarc)

October 14, 2023 6:25 am

Love this Kelly guy’s writing.

October 14, 2023 7:32 am

If wise words were the equivalent of CO2 emissions then the Biden administration reached net zero the day they entered office.

ScienceABC123
October 14, 2023 7:52 am

There are always going to be people who want to control everyone else. The goal should be to say to these people – “NO!”

October 14, 2023 8:22 am

https://chrisbond.substack.com/p/uk-plc-power-decarbonisation?utm_source=url

An excellent analysis of Net Zero in the case of the UK, based on the real data of 2020 and 2021.

Its not going to happen, and any serious attempt to make it happen will just result in blackouts.

From the summary:

“To decarbonise our electricity grid for current demand and recent (2020 and 2021) actual generation patterns, UK plc needs 2½ to 3½ times current wind generation (onshore + offshore), plus around ten to twenty million mega-watt hours (MWh) of electrical storage capacity.”

Actually, 2.5-3.5 is pretty optimistic. But OK, what does that mean if you double demand by moving to EVs and heat pumps?

28GW faceplate at present. So say 75-135GW on this account to meet current demand and 150-270GW for the increased demand. Oh, and how much storage?

Dream on…

Dave Andrews
Reply to  michel
October 14, 2023 8:54 am

As the UK Royal Society’s recent report put it

“A study modelling solar and wind generation using 37 years of weather data found variations in wind supply on multi decadal timescale, as well as sporadic periods od days and weeks of very low generation potential. For this reason some tens of TWhs of very long duration storage will be needed. For comparison the TWHs needed are 1000 times more than is currently provided by pumped hydro and far more than could be provided cost effectively by batteries.

The only role they saw for battery storage was grid balancing services.

Royal Society ‘Large -scale electricity storage policy briefing’ Sept 2023

CampsieFellow
October 14, 2023 2:25 pm

Michael Kelly is Emeritus Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society, of the Royal Academy of Engineering, of the Royal Society of New Zealand, of the Institute of Physics and of the Institution of Engineering and Technology, as well as Senior Member of the Institute of Electronic and Electrical Engineering in the USA. He is a trustees of the Global Warming Policy Foundation.
That’s all highly irrelevant. He’s obviously paid mega-bucks by the fossil fuel industry. (sarc)
And clearly he must be suffering from some severe psychological problems. (sarc)

Reply to  CampsieFellow
October 17, 2023 10:12 pm

You forgot “he’s not a climate scientist”. Sarc

That of course means his analysis has actual quantifiable value.