By Jim Steele
The formula is simple: Take an extreme temperature limited to a period of a few days from only one extremely tiny location, then encourage click-bait media to push the narrative that it represents the climate crisis caused by CO2 and threatening the whole earth.
A buoy in Manatee Bay managed by the Everglades National Park, is located north of Key Largo and indicated by the 2 red arrows in illustrations below. The official buoy data (upper left graph) shows water temperatures bounced between ~90°F and ~101 on consecutive two days then plummeted to 85-86°F over the following days! Clearly those water temperatures were being driven by dynamics other than rising CO2.
Nonetheless, the PBS News Hour pushed notorious alarmist-journalist Seth Borenstein’s report pushing the hoax with the title South Florida water temperature hits triple digits, may have set world record for warmest seawater. And New York Times pushes, “101°F in the Ocean Off Florida: Was It a World Record?”
Another scientist, despite attempting to sound an alarm, was unintentionally quite perceptive saying, “If you climbed in the water there, I’m pretty darn sure it would have felt like you’re in a hot tub.” Indeed, the science of solar ponds has shown when freshwater overlays saltier water, heat gets trapped, and temperatures can rise by as much as 60°F degrees higher than the surface at depths between 5 and 10 feet.
Also notice the Manatee Bay buoy measuring water temperatures at a 5-foot depth is located in a small embayment surrounded by landform that prevents mixing with cooler water and forms a natural hot tub, as seen in the enlarged illustration on the left. Low winds and a high-pressure system further helped heat the bay, while muddy waters darkened the water enhancing solar heating.
To maintain the crisis hoax, it’s also important to ignore conflicting data. Southern Florida has several buoys, some measuring water temperature, some air temperature, and some both. Just 56 miles to the southwest of Manatee Bay, the VAKF1 buoy measured water temperatures that were 10°F lower than Manatee Bay on those same days (lower left graph), and then cooled to 86°F. Manatee Bay’s buoy lacked air temperature data but VAKF1 reported a high air temperature of 91°F (lower right graph), which then cooled to the low 80s, even dipping to 76°F. Those air temperatures don’t even approach being unprecedented.
The hottest temperature ever recorded in the state of Florida was 109 degrees on June 29, 1931, in Monticello located over 400 miles north of Everglades National Park. According to Wikipedia Everglades National Park’s average maximum air temperatures for July is 92.5°F And the record high for July was 102°F. Nevertheless, Washington Post pushed “Extremely warm waters linked to record-setting heat over South Florida … The extreme ocean heat comes amid Florida’s hottest July on record,” trying to keep the climate crisis hoax alive.
For more on Climate Change Alarmism, check out the topic on our ClimateTV page.
Yeah, a mostly enclosed puddle in a swamp? How dreadful!
We must destroy the economy right now! And send more money to the greens.
You mean the putting greens?
We want to make sure they stay in good shape
And it wasn’t a record, either.
This is how they craft the hoax though, it was a record for a July 24th in that particular area.
Fear! Panic! The world is ending today, we’re all gonna die today!
I know, right?
The big lie was when it was reported as “coastal waters around Florida”, is if all the ocean water around Florida was thins temp.
This is an inland swamp, in no direct circulation with the ocean.
It is just a lie to call this area, “coastal waters around Florida”.
The language is contrived to make it sound like it an extensive area of the ocean, when it is one reading in one inland swamp, not coastal, not “Florida Waters.”
To prove my point that it is deliberately misleading, when other larger news outlets picked up the story, they reported it not as “coastal waters”, but as “The Ocean Temperature Off Florida “!
Changing the location, making it sound like it is a huge area surrounding the whole entire state, etc. IOW altering the story into a pure lie.
Thus, a little mud puddle in an enclosed area of an inland tidal marsh, near a huge power plant discharge, a roadway culvert of the biggest highway in that part of the state, and the discharge of the huge Canal #111, becomes “The Ocean Around Florida” in The New York Times, and the Washington Post, and who knows how many other sources for news.
Then they say it was or may have been the hottest ocean temperature ever measured, when it is not even the warmest measured in this location.
Just a pure lie, and few of those who read it will ever know it was not even slightly true.
Thanks for the post, Jim, including the graphs to support the reality of what had taken place.
Regards,
Bob
“Clearly those water temperatures were being driven by dynamics other than rising CO2.”
As I was saying just a couple of days ago, yet another heat record to be explained away. Yes, of course CO2 does not explain local variations in space and time. They have always been there. But why was it hotter on that day than ever before recorded? That place has always been in an embayment surrounded by landforms etc.
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/truly-cold-air-mass-shatters-dozens-more-b-c-weather-records-1.6206686
Dozens of cold records shattered last winter in BC. Clearly there’s an ice age coming?
Seriously Nick, you know darn well that neither is significant.
Yes, of course you can get records for no explained reason. But just saying, well there are hills around (Palermo) or jets flying (Coningsby) or embayment isn’t an explanation. It doesn’t explain why it was different.
Nick is a WEATHER DENIER.
Has this anti-science FANTASY of CO2 causing warming, and his addled mind will do anything to protect that fantasy.
He is correct that CO2 causes warming. Of that there is no scientific doubt.
What is doubtful is that the warming is significant.
CO2 converts radiant energy into kinetic energy. Of that there is no doubt.
Whether that conversion produces any detectable change in sensible heat is the question.
It’s the question climate modelers cannot answer and climate models cannot resolve.
models will never resolve anything, because it is a model, a simulation, a guesstimate born from lines of code, with many. many assumptions, carrying inbuilt bias, attempting to predict the unpredictable unknown unkowns.
I’m with Pat!
Yet it has never been observed or measured anywhere.
It is all just based on misunderstanding how the atmosphere works.
Also a DENIER that concrete roofs make for high temperatures,
and that aircraft exhaust is also very warm, Jets reaching as high as 1400C
And just what entity requires that every such insignificant odd weather occurrence be explained? How long has this location even had a weather buoy? When was it last calibrated? We do know for sure that the heat that warmed the water at depth to whatever temperature did not come from the air or IR reradiation fie the GHGs.
How much would the energy required to raise global air temperatures by 2 C raise the temperature of the oceans if it were somehow possible to effect such a transfer? Answer – not enough to bother calculating.
And in this location, it is a few hundred feet from a culvert that drains The Overseas Highway, which runs alongside the location.
And it is not the ocean or the ssea by any stretch of the imagination…it is a very shallow tidal swamp, with several encircling layers of islands between this place and the ocean. And that ocean just happens to be the place where the Gulf Stream is as close as it gets to land of anyplace in the world.
It also happens, coincidently, to be directly in the path of the outflow of a large canal, concrete lined, many miles long, runs along the inhabited parts of Miami Dade.
There is a channel cut into the bottom of the march that directs all that hot runoff from land to a location very near this buoy.
A hot day (it is very hot every single day here, from May until October), and then a quick downpour (it is the rainy season here, rains from a clear sky at times, in sudden but brief downpours), and either the highway runoff, or the canal discharge, or both, sent a pulse of hot water into the marsh.
Or is was just Sunny and hot with light wind for a few days in a row.
It is not a bit unusual for rain storms here at this time of year, to leave the ground literally steaming.
But no one reported on this disastrous event bothered to check the actual local conditions at the specific time of this reading.
If it was an anomalously low reading, it would be discarded without hesitation.
By the way, between this buoy the nearest actual, connection to the open ocean, happens to be the Turkey Point Nuclear Power Plant, and it cooling ponds and discharge pipes.
I can only post one image from my hard drive at a time, so here are a series of satellite images of the buoy, and the nearby roadway, canal discharge, series of enclosing land barriers, and the distant very small opening from the bay to the waters of the Gulf Stream.
The real question is, how is it ever NOT hot there?
Here is a zoomed in shot showing the actual buoy and nearby road:
Though power generators are required to cool the water they use before returning it to the environment, that water does NOT have to be cooled to the level of the local ambient water temperature.
Did a lot of work for the Crystal River Generating station on Units #1 and 2 for several years in a row. They had 4 large coal fired units and one nuclear unit. Since then Unit #3 which was the nuclear one has been shut down.
The station is located on the West coast well North of Tampa in an area where the bottom drops about 1 foot every mile. One has to go out 20 miles to get to water over 20 ft. deep.
During the cooler months steam rises off the channel into which the water from those units is discharged after going through the cooling towers.
For this reason the Manatee’s love it. They seek out the places with warmer waters during the colder months. And the location of that temperature was taken at the place named Manatee Bay. Go figure.
Exactly. When water is used to cool a power plant, the water itself is warmed, not cooled at all. It is used to absorb waste heat, which is then dumped wherever the water is discharged.
Lets zoom out some so we can see the canal discharge, plus how closed off from any circulation this exact location is:
Zooming out a little more we can see more clearly some of the enclosing rings of islands and land areas, and I have made a blue arrow showing the nuke plant, and a black arrow showing one of the discharge from the nuke plant, and red circle in lower left showing he buoy location.
In no possible way is this the ocean, sea, or anything even close to being that.
This is a shallow swamp that gets multiple industrial and infrastructure discharges dumped into and nearby it, and it is nearly completely shut off from any possible circulation with ocean water:
Anyone even so much as implying that this is a ocean temperature reading is just lying, plain and simple.
It is as far from a pristine measurement of the temperature of the natural environment as can be imagined, given the location and surrounding discharges and infrastructures.
There is a marina about a hundred yards away, and for all anyone knows, a boat was sitting there with the motor running all afternoon that day.
Most likely is some combination of still air, hot and sunny (if you have never spent any time in the Summer in the tropics or near tropical area, it is impossible to realize how hot the Sun gets here), a brief shower, hot runoff from a steaming roadway, concrete lined canal discharge, and/or tidal flow bringing nuclear power plant cooling water into that little cut off shallow swamp.
Great analysis, Nicholas. 🙂
Yes. The pattern of change of the readings makes it clear that there is some local factor at work, and you have given an excellent and very plausible explanation of what that factor probably is.
It wasn’t meaningfully different.
And you invoke Europe, which has been very hot this summer, and we pretty much know why. You have the occasional pattern of blocking highs coupled with position of the Jet Stream. Same thing happened in the UK last summer. Same hysterical claims that this was an indicator of an imminent climate disaster. It was not and is not.
The underlying fallacy in these frequent claims that some unusual weather event is due to global climate change is the crazed idea that weather is normally constant and predictable. It just isn’t. What is normal is, in most places, occasional extremes, storms, heat waves, cold waves, snowfalls, rain.
How long has that particular bouy been measuring temperatures with that equipment at that location?
If it’s not longer than 50 years in that configuration I for one am not particularly worried.
Yes, if there are all those factors and you’ve only been measuring there recently, that becomes a reasonable explanation. But we aren’t told the length of record.
At least a few years.
The lagoon water was warmer in 2017.
Have they been measuring the turbidity of the water at that location? Could both 2017 and 2023 have been particularly turbid in July?
I only found historical data for that buoy for the past 3 years.
But they have been measuring the temperature for quite a few years.
See chart elsewhere.
Then nobody with any intellectual integrity should be making claims about the temperature being significant, unprecedented, or the result of AGW.
“Then nobody with any intellectual integrity”
We’re talking about Seth Borenstein, here. He’s been writing these climate change scaremongering stories for years. This is just more of the same.
I wonder if Seth gets tired of his claims being debunked every time he writes an alarmist article? Apparently not, because it doesn’t seem to deter him.
So many questions, Grasshopper.
So few answers.
(but at least here at WUWT, many questions are always published, unlike fora on the left of the political spectrum).
The best thing about WUWT is all the questions and all the debate on answers from very smart people.
And from Nick too.
“yet another heat record to be explained away.”
Nick, how long is your record?
Except it was not a record.. just HYPE !
A heat record…
Except it was NOT a heat record.
That area of the bay has been above that temperature before and often gets up near that temperature in summer.
You have been caught out by HYPE yet again, because your brain has become addled. !
Doesn’t even show a whole lot of warming. It’s almost like the climate has changed very little since 2004.
That record is identified as MLLW not MNBF1
It is still measured in Manatee Bay.
Guess what…
Everglades water gets warm ! 🙂
This is a huge new discovery to some 🙂
MLLW (Mean Lower Low Water) is defined by NOAA as the average level of the lowest tide for each day computed over a 19-year period. It is NOT the name (ID) of a measuring buoy, but a specific reference to the depth at which the temperature is being measured, accounting for tidal motion.
oops, didn’t see your post.. Thanks for identifying what MLLW is. 🙂
Alright, I missed that. Thanks. I thought it was a de-commisioned buoy but that makes sense.
“MLLW”…. Is not a buoy number.
“why was it hotter on that day than ever before recorded?”
We need a scientific experiment to validate your hypothesis. Let’s stop emitting CO2 worldwide, and wait 100 years to see if high temperature records are set.
That is what you want, isn’t it?
Indeed. But remember the world must build out all the ruinables first. That will take at least a century from today, so 100 years more of burning fossil fuels. Now, once that is all done and dusted, then the world will run on sun and wind only. Oh what fun.
Then we must wait another century whilst the climate “corrects itself”, then we can measure manatee Bay again. Easy!
We will measure the temperature at that location every day from today to 29th July 2223, then we will know – easy peasy..Trust me I work for the IPCC. Err sorry the IPGB. The intergovernMENTAL Panel on Global Boiling.
I wonder how many heat records were broken as the climate climbed into the Medieval Warm Period, not to mention the Holocene Optimum. No one knows.
And how many cold records were broken as the climate fell into the LIA? No one knows.
How does one explain away the myopia of climate presentism, Nick?
“That place has always been in an embayment surrounded by landforms etc.”
And a place that regularly gets up around 100F.
Not a record Nick…. So you can stop your idiotic chicken-little mode.
Your reply indicate you have no answer thus waste of a post.
“thus waste of a post.”
Basically everything Nick has posted recently has been a waste.
There is something rather Bidenesque (senile/dementia) about them. !
How much did it break the previous record by Nick?
“How much did it break the previous record by Nick?”
It didn’t.
I looked for historical data for Buoy MNBF1. It’s there but it only goes back to 2020, so yes, it’s a record high temperature, but only for a 3 year period. Not something to get too wound up about.
Anyway, Nick. No one is saying that it’s not been a hot summer in some parts of the NH. Being an El Niño year, plus the added water vapour from the Tonga Hunga eruption (water vapour being the most important greenhouse gas). UAH mid-troposphere temperature shows a steady 0.13C/decade increase since 1979, so it would be surprising if there weren’t some records being set. Doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world, and it certainly doesn’t justify the hysterically fervid rants of the media. There are more ominous things going on that they should be ranting about, e.g. a war in eastern Europe spinning out of control and turning into – who knows what?
Yep Smart Rock, I only found MNBF1 data going back to 2020. Alarmist like Nick Stokes are so brainwashed they blindly think 3 years is evidence for climate change.
They are trying DESPERATELY to cling onto the fallacy that CO2 causes any measurable warming.
They will twist and turn, deny real data, use data they know is faked and/or corrupted….
Anything to try to keep their cult-like beliefs intact.
Wow.. it almost seems that they put a buoy in a tainted setting just so they can say “look how hot the sea is getting!”. Just as well we know they wouldn’t resort to such underhand tactics.
I don’t think so.
Sure they wanted to know how warm it could get in that specific location…
… , but they do have other buoys in more sensible locations.
Problem is how the “climate” bletherers tried to use it.
A spot to dig.
https://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=mnbf1
Nick, the air temperature was 93 deg F, and the water in the shallow bay was 101 deg F, question: how does 93 F air heat water to 101 F? Looks like the sun might be involved.
Yes, but again the sun has always been there. Why a record?
Well, if they have only been measuring there a short time, that is a factor.
Merely a record for a July 24th, not an all time record. Temperatures fluctuate minute by minute all over the globe in a chaotic brew affected by sun, wind, depth, darkness/lightness, salinity, vulcanism, currents, and more. Why not a momentary record? Why presume we could ever know the confluence of factors that caused a high temperature blip?
So an “all time record” for that date, then. How come it never happened before, in the period of record. With everything else happening around the globe (record warm June and July globally; record warm sea surface temperatures globally, etc…) it’s a legitimate question.
NO, it is NOT a record.
Stop being a data DENIER.
Was NOT a global record in June either,, except at urban and airport site mal-adjusted, and totally unfit for climate use.
Stop being a Foolish Nitwit.
“for that date”
WOW, are you getting DESPERATE or what. ! 🙂
Clutching at emptiness, as you slither and slide into your mental abyss.
Hilarious !!
Why was it the warmest July 24th in 3 whole years in that one spot but no others nearby, in that shallow enclosed marsh area where a canal discharge, Canal 111 (which so happens to be the most southern, most inland [and hence hot], of all Florida canals, has a channel cut into the muck leading directly to the area of this buoy, and although there is a tiny outlet to the exact location of the closest land approach in the world of the warmest ocean current in the world and this exact spot is very close to the most direct Sun angle of any spot in the entire continental US, on very close to the longest and most direct Sun angle of the entire year (so it is very close to the highest possible and most direct possible rays of the Sun on the entire planet), this shallow little enclosed marsh that has roadways and industrial canal discharges dumping hot water in the shallow marsh…as if that is not reason enough to discount a slightly warmer than average reading that was not seen on any other gauges in the entire region (how is the hottest water ever occurring on not the hottest day ever, eh? How is that even possible? It was very close to average temperature there, maybe cooler than average)…..*inhales deep breathe*…as if none of that is enough, there also happens to be a nuclear power plant and it cooling ponds and discharge pipes entering the bay just a stones-throw away, actually and literally between the location of the buoy and the tiny outlet to the Gulf Stream!
Got that?
Nuclear Power Plant Effluent Water enters that shallow little mud puddle very close by, in addition to the roadway culvert, and Florida Canal #111 both emptying into this little and shallow enclosed marsh area.
But you go ahead and agree that this is world shaking news.
I actually feel sorry for you, as I would for anyone so intellectually challenged and deluded.
For those who like that sort of thing, is seems to be claimed as an an all-time world record, although no scientific organisations are backing that claim, so no-one is sure.
FFS Nick… LOOK AT THE DATA
IT IS NOT A RECORD !
Looks like you live where the sun don’t shine.
The complement to that question is why didn’t the surrounding buoys similarly have a record high if the temperatures are being driven by increasing CO2? It is a statistical fluke driven by random variations and/or error in the measurement.
Well for a start.. IT WASN’T A RECORD. !
“Why a record?”
NO, NOT A RECORD. !
Why would a high temperature in an inshore turbid swamp be of any importance to anything? Seems like you’re acting at being the normal disingenuous alarmist that you are.
“you’re acting ” “disingenuous alarmist”
Nope, it is not an act. It is just who he is. !
LOL Just as I have been saying, alarmists like Nick Stokes have yet another heat record to falsely attribute to CO2. Nick, do you really believe that low winds and low cloud cover over a shallow embayment don’t raise temperatures precipitously??? Don’t you understand the effects of weather?? Learn some science Nick!
And your argument that the local conditions have always been there, seems to ignore the fact the the Manatee Bay has not always been there! But nice dodge.
The landforms for all the neighboring buoys that recorded temperatures 10F lower have always been there as well. Why Nick, do you defend cherrypicking just the Manatee Bay??
NIck, please explain how CO2 infrared, that doesn’t penetrate the ocean deeper than a few microns, how do you attribute CO2 and not solar energy that penetrates more than 10 meters deep for warming Manatee Bay!
Manatee Bay also gets run-off from the Everglades,
Might be interesting to look at recent rainfall and outflows.
Also look at them for 2017 when a higher temperature was recorded.
Indeed Manatee Bay gets freshwater runoff. That is the needed dynamic to create a solar pond that traps heat: freshwater runoff overlaying denser salty water. That “solar pond” dynamic is how Manatee Bay temperature were 10F higher than air temperatures or neighboring ocean temperatures
“freshwater runoff”
See my comment below.
This question has been addressed so many times that it seems pointless to answer it again. But I’m semi-retired now so, you know….
No one, no one, is claiming that CO2, and the increased long-wave radiation it produces, is warming the oceans to a depth greater than a few micrometres.
What we are saying is that it warms the ocean ‘skin layer’; the interface between the ocean surface and the air, where heat transfer between the ocean and atmosphere takes place.
That’s all it needs to do to slow down the rate of heat transfer from the ocean to the atmosphere; and when you slow down the transfer of heat from the oceans to the atmosphere, the oceans get warmer than they would otherwise be.
That’s it. No big mystery. The more CO2 we put in the atmosphere, the warmer the ocean skin layer becomes and the warmer the oceans will get.
1…This is NOT the OCEAN
2… This is NOT a RECORD.
3… There is absolutely ZERO evidence of any slowdown of heat transfer.
4… There is no evidence that CO2 causes warming of any sort
You are living in your own little evidence-free fantasy world.
Not so.
To the extent that the ocean “skin layer’ warms, it increases the rate of evaporation from that skin layer because the vapor pressure of a liquid, such as seawater, increases with temperature, all other things being equal.
The higher the rate of evaporation of surface water, the greater the removal of heat from the water underlying the surface layer (which is the source supplying the latent heat of vaporization to the evaporating liquid).
Your assertion that warming the ocean “skin layer” slows down the rate of heat transfer from the ocean to the atmosphere is 100%, flat out incorrect.
Thanks for that concise explanation of an effect that someone just a couple of days ago told me was wrong, and that warm air above the surface, albeit cooler than the water, could slow the release of heat from the water. You explained it better than I did, and my high school physics teacher has stopped spinning is his grave.
“This question has been addressed so many times that it seems pointless to answer it again”
Certainly it is pointless trying to explain any science or reality to you.
Basically everything you pretend you know is provable WRONG.
Wrong Nail! First the sun’s deeper penetration makes it far more likely to be the driver of a warming ocean. Second the cool skin surface where the infrared is absorbed immediately radiates that heat away, and accelerates evaporative cooling. That’s why it is the cool skin surface!
You have no evidence that CO2 is slowing down the cooling of the ocean. None! You and your comrades are just making up shite to perpetuate the hoax.
I believe that evaporative COOLING of the surface “skin” by low energy IR, has actually been measured in experiments.
I probably even have a link somewhere, but it is pointless presenting measured data to Flaming Nitwits.
More bollox from you!
“the more CO2 we put in the atmosphere, the warmer the ocean skin layer becomes and the warmer the oceans will get.”
A small percentage more of a trace gas 0.04% of the atmospheric inventory will make F-all difference.
It makes me want to puke when people like you cannot see that even 5% more of the stuff is sweet ZILCH (to remain polite.)
It’s just enough to make plants & trees + leaves grow and that never ceases to amaze me too!
What an incredible climate we live in and what an amazing earth, almost everything in perfect harmony, with ideal conditions to feed billions.
It’s like Roman times.
Go to Pompei and take a look.
DIet is good and a hundred years of wealth and prosperity.
It may never be this good again….
“Nick, do you really believe that low winds and low cloud cover over a shallow embayment don’t raise temperatures precipitously???”
I’m sure they can. But thy have been coming and going for many years.
A better argument, if true, is that the record is only three years old.
And that there is other data that has higher temperatures.
You got CONNED by the media, yet again.. Just admit it. !
Nick, bnice2000 twice provided this Thread with a chart of that buoy’s temperature record going back to 2005. The August 15, 2017 temperature was 102℉ and both 2019 and 2021 temperatures were close to July’s peak of 101.2℉.
You owe bnice2000 an apology. And everybody else should follow the Threads more closely.
“And everybody else should follow the Threads more closely.”
Well, so should you. I’m not claiming it was a record. That was Seth Borenstein, as quoted by Jim Steele, although Seth only said “may have been”. I’m just pointing out that talking about the Sun, or the geography, is useless in talking about records. Those factors were there just as much in previous years.
Bullshite Nick. The combination of clear skies, winds, murkiness and runoff are NOT always the same! Stop lying!
Nick, Here’s Borenstein’s opening lines “The water temperature around the tip of Florida has hit triple digits — hot tub levels — two days in a row. Meteorologists say it could be the hottest seawater ever measured” he then mentions there might be some uncertainty but his intent is clear fearmongering that you are now defending. Sad!
No, I’m just pointing out the futility of blaming physical features that have always been there. I’m not claiming it was a record. That was Seth, in your quote.
But a cogent argument is that, as bnice has been saying in his usual way, is that the temperature has been attained before.
“Here’s Borenstein’s opening lines “The water temperature around the tip of Florida has hit triple digits — hot tub levels — two days in a row. ”
Borenstein is implying that all the water around “the tip of Florida” has hit triple digits, when the actual temperature was measured in a very small area.
Just another distortion from the human-caused climate change alarmists. And this distortion will travel around the world. Is it any wonder people are confused about the climate change issue?
Hilarious..
Nick .. sprung LYING and WRONG yet again…
… tries deceptively to slither and squirm away.
The cover-up attempts are always funnier. 😉
I dare you to face up and admit the facts…
1… It is not a record.
2… Seth is a scaremongering fool.
You keep spinning like that Stokes and your head will come lose.
“your head will come lose.”
Brains have already gone… through ears and nose…
… and especially mouth. !
Nick, once again (as is usual) you are monomaniacally justifying your prior comments. My comment had nothing to do with prior physical conditions influencing temperatures. I simply pointed out to you and others that bnice2000 had produced a temperature chart of that location twice on this Thread that showed a 2017 temperature exceeding the 2023 “record.”
I try to ask myself why I am making a particular comment; to provide facts and reasoning or to beat someone up (as seems your wont). This comment is meant to beat you up because all other efforts to penetrate your thick skull seem not to be working.
Dude – the official Gulf of Mexico surface water temperature measured today here at the highest average reporting location in the Gulf, in Naples, is 89.2 deg F. That is right at, or slightly below the long term average water surface temp in late July. Anybody who lives in the Gulf Coast of Florida routinely expects water temps hovering around 90 deg F in mid summer, with warmer water temps than is normal in the Atlantic Coast of Florida.
Nowhere remotely near a record. Perfectly normal here.
The only thing that needs explaining away is an obviously anomalous impossible water temp at a single questionable location not corroborated or duplicated anywhere else in south Florida this week.
Give it up!
OK, explain away. But it’s no use talking about the sun, or the landforms by themselves. What made it different that day?
Length of record is a legitimate explanation.
That is like asking why it rained on a particular day when it rarely does so.
“OK, explain away.”
Nothing to explain.
NOT A RECORD..
Temperatures in that enclosed little bay often get up near and beyond 100F
Good thing there is no data back to the 1930s/40s, hey.
Then you would almost certainly look like even more of an idiot and a data denier.
Again, bnice2000 twice provided us a record going back to 2005 showing 2017 had a higher temperature.
It is DELIBERATE IGNORANCE on both their behalf’s.
The data is there, from “Florida Climate Centre”… but they just ignore it.
It really is quite ridiculous.
Dude – anyone who actually works with data for a living knows that outliers with questionable provenance must be ignored. That is what you do in science and engineering.
I quoted you the official Gulf surface water temp at a well provenanced long term record as the warmest averaged reporting point on the Gulf, off Naples, Florida, for yesterday, and it was at or a little below the long term average for that location.
Being “a record” means next to nothing unless qualified as being well representative of what is being measured, and has a minimum of 30 years of data, otherwise NOAA won’t use it.
It wasn’t. See the post by bnice2000, above. This is before we even start talking about the standard deviation to determine if the difference between 2023, 2017, and 2009 are statistically different at the 95% level.
I think the Flaming Nitwit is now claiming “just that day” of the year !
Talk about grasping EMPTY air !
The official buoy data (upper left graph) shows water temperatures bounced between ~90°F and ~101 on consecutive two days then plummeted to 85-86°F over the following days!
This is what you have to explain. There is some local factor which causes temperatures there to fluctuate dramatically in the course of a few days. 101F versus 98F is of no significance whatever.
It is also not representative of the Florida ocean in general. As the piece makes clear
You say: That place has always been in an embayment surrounded by landforms etc.
Yes. Which is why its short term temperature fluctuations have no bearing either on Florida ocean temps and their trends, still less the global climate.
The fuss about this is climate hysteria. Emotion out of any proportion to its object.
“As I was saying just a couple of days ago, yet another heat record to be explained away.”
And I thought Jim Steele did a very good job of it.
And it’s not a heat record Jim is explaining away. Jim is clarifying the human-caused climate change propaganda being put out by the Media about this particular event.
I saw yesterday where even Fox News is perpetrating the lie that this July is the hottest July in 120,000 years. It just goes to show that if you repeat a lie often enough, a lot of people believe it.
Like a dog with a Frisbee. I think someone needs to explain to Nick what “dynamic” and “chaotic” mean in reference to weather.
“But why was it hotter on that day than ever before recorded? ”
How far back do records go?
Why do assume all other conditions and inputs except CO2 levels are constant?
Why did that supposed hottest day ever fade away? Why isn’t today also the hotest day ever, since CO2 levels are are a teensy bit higher when the high was recorded?
Why should we panic about a 0.13°C/decade temperature trend? Not even 2°C per century. For the vast majority of Earth’s biosphere existence, temperatures were much higher than now, probably a solid 10°C higher than now.
Why should we panic that the Earth is slowly crawling out of an ice age?
It wasn’t higher than ever recorded. As the graph above clearly shows, that temperature was exceeded just 6 years ago.
Jim is correct. I researched and made a comment on it before.
It is a bay, not the ocean. The water is a bit murky and the bay bottom darkened by thallassia sea grass (very common all along Florida Bay (between the land and the Keys). The prevailing winds were light and from the west, unlike the usual fairly strong on shore winds from the east (ocean) that usually prevail along that Florida shore(because the land heats more than the ocean, it’s air rises, and then ocean air moves inland to replace it—cooling sea breezes are the South Florida afternoon norm.) And the measurement was near the suns peak on a mostly cloudless day.
Right, another bizarre excuse.
The sea grass has presumably always been there. It didn’t just arrive this year by magic, I imagine. So, how can that be a factor?
The “prevailing winds” meanwhile, which you say were unusual (so not ‘prevailing’, really) came from a different direction than usual; well, honestly, are we to believe that that never happened before either?
And the measurement of the water on a sunny day around the sun’s peak…. like that never happened before in Florida either?
None of these parameters is unusual; what is unusual, like all the other extreme heat-related weather events we are seeing around the globe, both land and ocean, are the temperatures.
It is very probable that it hasn’t occurred in that particular spot in the last three years, or that it wasn’t reported previously, as in 2017.
NOT A RECORD. or are you a data DENIER?
Just media hype, which you of course gullibly fell for… hook line and sinker.
“Right, another bizarre excuse.”
Is your excuse that you can’t understand a basic data chart ?
That is bizarre even for someone of your unbelievable ignorance.
NOT A RECORD..
Do
you
under-
stand !!!!
Three buoys that are closest to MNBF1, for the same period their maximum temperatures are
LSNF1 96F
HCEF1 96F
LBSF1 95F
Higher temperatures than 101.2F have been measured before.
There is absolutely NOTHING untoward happening..
(except your zealot driven panic going into apoplectic meltdown.)
“The “prevailing winds” meanwhile, which you say were unusual (so not ‘prevailing’, really)” that made me laugh….
Again… Simon is basically incapable of putting a coherent rational comment together.
NOT A RECORD… you poor demented clown. !
So explain why the bouy measured an anomalous spike over a short time period and then dropped rapidly back to normal water temperature again?
Stacy Abrams and Chris Christie were both on vacation at that spot and passed gas at the same moment.
The only “bizarre excuse” is “it’s CO2 wot dunnit”.
““prevailing winds””
Oh dear, seem Flaming Nitwit doesn’t even know what “prevailing winds” means
No dimwit, it doesn’t mean “usual direction”
it means
“existing at a particular time; current:”
“In meteorology, prevailing wind in a region of the Earth’s surface is a surface wind that blows predominantly from a particular direction.”
National Geographic Society
Hmm, two downvotes for the correct definition!
If everything else has always been there, how did an average Summer afternoon temperature lead to a higher than average water temperature, but only on that day and at that time?
If it had anything to do with air temp, then the two would go up and down in lockstep, or at the very least highly correlated.
This is not correlated with an unusually hot day, so what does it have to do with the climate, or global warming, or anything like that?
Do you understand any principles of logic?
And yet people on holiday continue to flock there :
“TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Today, Governor Ron DeSantis announced continued record visitation to Florida in the third quarter of 2022. VISIT FLORIDA estimates that Florida welcomed 35.1 million visitors between July and September 2022, marking a 6.9 percent increase from Q3 2021″.
Can they all be suicidal⸮
Well, ain’t it funny that temperature reading doesn’t need homogenisation?
If it was an old record it would be deemed faulty, and recalculated using neighbouring readings.
Only if it was a cold record.
If it was a warm record then it would be used to recalculate the apparently faulty on that day temps of the neigbouring stations.
Borenstein implied that the neighboring stations were also showing record temperatures.
They really don’t get it with the null hypothesis do they?
Long-lost Greenland ice core suggests potential for disastrous sea level rise (9news.com.au)
Climastrology usurping Economics as the dismal science.
Tony Heller obliterates this nonsense
https://youtu.be/iNhnJDWi-wQ?t=195
NOT a sea surface temperature..
Sea temps close by were around 87F.. about normal
It was a cove along the land side of Florida Bay. Nothing to do with the sea.
And as explained in essay Shell Games in ebook Blowing Smoke, Florida Bay itself is a very special extreme ecosystems. In winter along the Everglades /mangrove fringe, the pH is actually acidic down to about 4.5 (Everglades freshwater discharge as swamps can get quiet acidic). In high summer just 60 miles away in Florida Bay off Key West toward the Everglades, the pH reaches 9.6 as a combination of evaporation concentrating calcium salts enough to precipitate them and Thallassia sea grass consuming remaining dissolved CO2. Yet the fish and conch thrive year round in Florida Bay.
“Manatee Bay’s buoy lacked air temperature data but VAKF1 reported a high air temperature of 91°F (lower right graph)”
On the 25th July the highest sea surface temperature was 91.6°F observed by satellite near the location of VAKF1.
Genuine sea surface temperatures don’t change much, so if any buoys are found with large temperature rises they are stuck in a heat trap in very shallow water.
Shown on 27th July near the Florida coast (this will change) having a maximum temperature of 32.4°C. (90.3°F)
After a couple of days there is only 1.3°F difference for the high around the same area. (being cooler)
During neap tides in Nickol Bay to the east of Dampier WA, the water temperature gets so warm that it takes your breath away even for a brief dip – well above 40C. Still part of the ocean that is normally tidal flats on ordinary tides but have 24 hour shallow water cover over dark sand during neap tides.
Get a shallow dish with a black bottom and place it in the direct sun shielded from wind and watch how high the temperature gets.
Parts of the Med hit 30C this week but the atmospheric moisture column is only 30mm or less. It will take quite a while to get enough atmospheric water to establish a cyclone but it is trying at the moment. Convective potential developing off Tunis:
https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/overlay=cape/orthographic=-333.98,35.47,1309/loc=10.472,38.294
Gluf of Mexico already above 30C but atmospheric moisture mostly less than 50mm. Not enough yet for a cyclone.
Another cyclone developing off Philippines. Atmospheric water there now 70mm: about as high as satellites can measure.
https://earth.nullschool.net/#2023/07/27/1200Z/wind/surface/level/overlay=total_precipitable_water/orthographic=-225.49,13.41,483/loc=137.852,12.738
Today’s headline on a local news website “AC repair services struggle to keep up with record heat”. I sent them a note pointing out that we have had no record temperatures this month, and all the records are 10 degrees or more above the actual temps. They modified the headline to say “near-record heat”. Even thought it is not really even “near record” I’ll take it. Maybe next time, they will actually check the records.
I would say you made some progress! 🙂
Somebody tied a boat to the buoy for those 2 eveningsA minor oil spill or diesel slick floated past (stopped evaporative cooling)Maybe both.
For the temps to peak around the same time both days (around 19:30 local time) points to it being a completely not natural phenomenon.
Good grief, sunset is only about 40 minutes away while hottest time of any day is usually around 3 hours after solar noon.
A yacht of some sort has gone out there in the evening for a quiet bit of fishing or whatever ‘secret rendezvous‘ ## , parked up next to the buoy and and left its engine running bang next the buoy.
## Miami. Yeah. Right. Comprende maintenant. nudge nudge wink wink
Where’s Crockett & Tubbs when you need them……..
I just looked at the three buoys that are closest to MNBF1, for the same period their maximum temperatures are
LSNF1 96F
HCEF1 96F
LBSF1 95F
Good science is far more circumspect than a Yahoo headline.
You can check the data by replacing MNBF1 in the following webpage address with the a different buoy identifier:
https://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/show_plot.php?station=mnbf1…
The whole point of the warmunist argument is that CO2 warms the atmosphere which warms the water (which is absurd – water temperature controls air surface temperatue, not the other way around, as anyone who lives on or near a coastline can attest).
But air temperatures here in southwest Florida are totally within the normal range for July as it’s always been – ie low to mid 90s F, unless cooled off by overcast skies or summer thunderstorms, which cools the surface air temps to the 70s and 80s. I’ve lived in south Florida for 34 years, and this is always the norm for the warm season in May thru September.
So if the air temps in south Florida are well within the normal range for summer – they are – and even if you accept the foolish notion that the atmosphere warms the ocean, instead of the sun, then their illogic fails utterly.
I watched NPR weather news today. They had a map of the continental US, with high numbers of over 100 degrees F to cause a real alarm. Only they were not showing temperatures, but a “heat index”.
Where you curious enough, Curious George, to Google what “heat index’ means?
A more refined proxy for enthalpy than temperature alone.
You can bet they will only use it when its warm with high humidity, though! 😉
A very leftist… “FEELS LIKE”
I’m sure he know full well what it means..
… you on the other hand have conveyed your gross ignorance in basically every post you have made.
There has been an internationally agreed standard for well over 100 years of reporting air temperatures recorded in a properly sited Stevenson screen. Are you curious enough to ask why make the change?
I did.
Heat Index is when they lie about what the temperature is.
Nice report.
A canal dumps water into Manatee Bay here:
25.257426, -80.422163
. . . it runs southward on the east side of Homestead
https://myfwc.com/media/20621/fwguidec111aerojet.pdf
This is a freshwater flow with several control structures. Control structure S-197 is where the flow meets salinity.
From the article: “The hottest temperature ever recorded in the state of Florida was 109 degrees on June 29, 1931”
The decade of the 1930’s keeps popping up, doesn’t it.
It was hotter then, than now, and anyone with any knowledge, knows it.
To understand ‘climate crisis‘. we need to stop talking climate science, and start talking dark psychology.
– Sam Vankin
As well as climate sciences, we all need to study dark psychology – the psychology of anti-social people: psychopaths, narcissists, cluster B, dark triads, dark tetrad and ADHD activists. If we want to understand the modern activist, to predict their behaviour, we must study them. There are reasons why they’re full of hyperbole, cannot debate nor reason with you, …
“story tip”
And they are drawn to Marxist Critical Theory; there are only victims and their oppressors. Quite apart from the victim mentality itself there is great psychological benefit from being the champion of the oppressed victim.
Another fine example of taking a random outlier and calling it an example of a grave universal problem. The whole damn codswallop AGW theory is based on outliers and contrived problems.
So we see from looking a little closer at the actual details of this alarmist headline, that this specific location and measurement is about as far from a sea surface temperature reading as one might contrive if one were trying very hard.
In plain language, it is not the ocean.
It is not even and ocean-like environment
.
It is a shallow tidal marsh, isolated by enclosing land and roadways from a shallow bay, and in fact cut off still further from the larger bay by yet another roadway and land area.
So there are multiple obstructions to anything like circulation with the shallow bay.
The bay itself has only small openings tot eh open ocean, and this location has among the lowest tidal range of any location on the entire planet, so there is little in the way of diurnal currents to exchange water between the bay and the open ocean.
And the ocean surface adjacent to this embayment happens to be the Gulf Stream itself, flowing directly along the shoreline here. The Gulf Stream, the warmest ocean current on the entire planet.
This “event” took place in a spot that is about 2° of latitude from the Tropic of Cancer, IOW, from the location of the position where the Sun is directly over-head on the Summer Solstice, and it was with a few weeks of that solstice, which is the time of year that the Sun Angle moves very little from day to day.
In plain language, that spot and that time of year is very close to as direct and thus as strong as the Sun ever gets anywhere on the planet.
The same latitude as southern Sudan, southern Libya, southern Egypt, the very center of the Saudi Arabian desert, the southernmost Mojave desert, etc.
Hot. Very powerful direct Sunshine.
And then there is the discharge culvert from the huge and wide Overseas Highway which is directly adjacent to this site.
And the discharge from Florida Canal #111, the most southerly canal discharge in the entire state of Florida empties in the small and shallow marsh in which this buoy is located.
Another name for this body of water is Barnes Sound. The buoy resides in an enclosed area off of the main sound.
The only outlet from Barnes Sound is to the north. The northern end of Barnes Sound is almost but not quite cut off from waters to the north by two stretches of land and a bridge.
Just north of that small opening is Card Sound.
Card sound is a small shallow body of water that connects to the southern end of Biscayne Bay.
There is a very large power station that is adjacent to and exchanges water with Card Sound, Called the Turkey Point Power Station. This site is one of the largest power generating stations in the entire United States. It supplies all of South Florida. It consists of (2) 802 megawatt Westinghouse pressurized water nuclear reactors, two retired 404 megawatt power plants, an operational 1150 megawatt gas-fired combined cycle power plant.
Additionally, in 2017, a license was issued for two new nuclear reactors to be operated at the site, and plans were made to built two new Westinghouse AP 1000 nuclear power plants, each rated to produce 1,117 megawatts.
These facility does not use cooling towers, as far as I can tell, they use a canal field to cool the power plants.
Heat pollution has been cited as an ongoing concern, as this water is first taken and then returned to Card Sound, and has at times been very hot at discharge. In 2014 they apparently had to shut down the site because of overheating in the canals.
So, yeah…not the ocean, not the sea surface, not even a Bay, but a shallow marsh adjacent to a Sound, next to a large highway, the outlet of a very long canal, and just south of the discharge from one of the largest power stations in the country, which uses canals and not cooling towers and then empties the waste heat into the small sound connected to Barnes Sound. At the hottest time of year in one of the sunniest parts of Earth, where the nearest ocean is actually the Gulf Stream itself, which is the very hot ocean current that begins near South Africa and gets hotter and hotter over a 10,000 mile tropical journey, before squeezing past this exact place and the Grand Banks of the Bahamas.
Just like how there is so little racism in the US, the left has to actually invent some so they can point to it and scream about it, there are so few actual instances of unusual heat, the left has to invent it, and lie about what they are reporting so they have something to get hysterical about. They go so far as to use one hot reading on one buoy on one day, in a shallow swamp cut off from the ocean and influenced by discharge from a nuclear power plant, to imply “the coastal waters around Florida are boiling”.
The bullshit does not get much more spectacularly steamy and stinky than this nonsense.
Then other media outlets altered the story even more without checking it, going so far as to call it an ocean temperature, and calling it a world record, despite it being an inland body of water, and not even a record for that location! And they word their headlines to imply that this is the ongoing temperature of the entire ocean.
They do not mention it was one reading, on one day, in one place, let alone a single honest word about where it occurred, and what this location really is.
Here is the actual headline: “In the inland mud puddle where one of the largest power plants in the world dumps it’s waste heat, on one day and in one spot it was briefly almost as hot as it has been in the past, based on three entire years of monitoring.”
We had inline and in-channel meters to measure such things as Free Cl and NTU levels.
They were on a maintenance schedule to be cleaned, calibrated etc.
We’d take that particular meter “offscan” while that was going on.
(“offscan”, with the most recent SCADA when I retired, meant that the meter would still measure realtime but not record the readings.)
I’m NOT saying or trying to imply that that is what happened here, but what is the maintenance schedule for such buoys?
I remember when the Washington Post was considered a legitimate news source. Seems so long ago.
It used to be that if a reporter put out something this misleading, someone could contact the editor and they’d have fact-checkers look into it and issue a correction if necessary.
Now, the editors would simply ignore you. They’re under orders from the owners to keep the faith, integrity be damned.