Aussie ABC: Electric Vehicles Could Overload the Grid

Essay by Eric Worrall

“At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all”: According to Origin Energy, a major Aussie supplier, unless smart chargers are used to shift EV charging load away from peak times, the grid will struggle to cope with people plugging their vehicles in after work.

Electric vehicles could significantly increase demand on the power grid, trials underway to change energy use behaviour

By Kym Agius

Electric cars could increase demand on the power grid during the evening peak by at least 30 per cent unless households adopt smart charging, a new trial shows.

Key points:

  • A trial of 150 electric car users revealed their potential impact on the power grid’s evening peak
  • Demand could rise between 30 and 100 per cent
  • Work underway to understand what upgrades could be needed to the electricity network

Origin Energy has teamed up with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) to understand ways to change the behaviour of electric car owners before their mass adoption in Australia.

With the threat of blackouts a reality amid higher prices and demand, Origin’s general manager of e-mobility Chau Le said the network would struggle once EVs became more popular.

“At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all,” she said.

“If we were to add another 30 per cent of peak load to the grid during those periods of high prices and constraints on the network, this would require significant investment to increase capacity.”

It found that without intervention, 30 per cent of charging was done in the evening peak, between 3pm and 9pm.

Read more:

What a mess – welcome to our energy rationed, energy impoverished future. If only our energy and climate minister wasn’t so anti-nuclear. A zero carbon nuclear powered grid, like they have in France, would have no problem charging an EV any time of day or night – no need for energy rationing if you have nuclear power.

Imagine the impact on EV owners.

If I owned an EV I would want to plug in as soon as I get home, so there is plenty of charge if I need to make an unexpected late night trip. And I’d like plenty of charge in the morning, for the commute to work. Then plug in at work, pick up a good charge during the solar peak, then back on the charger at home.

If any of these charging periods are removed or degraded, it will significantly inconvenience EV owners. If you can’t plug in as soon as you get home, and you live a few miles outside town, you will potentially suffer range anxiety if one of the kids suffers an unexpected night time medical issue, or if a friend invites you out, or you need to make an unexpected dash to the supermarket. Even worse if your vehicle doesn’t charge at all overnight, due to low wind and cold weather draining all available electricity from the grid.

EVs almost make sense, if you ignore the occasional need for a long distance trip, the high cost, and the distressing tendency of EVs to spontaneously combust. But only if you can charge the EV at your convenience. Otherwise EVs are even more of a joke than they are at present.

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June 22, 2022 10:11 pm

Overload the main electricity grid, and local area grids of course, too many EV in the local streets plugging in and out goes the power supply.

Another example of the apparently unforeseen consequences.

Recently in the news was a government estimate that to upgrade the main grid would cost in excess of A$1 trillion. No mention of upgrading local area grids and costs.

Reply to  Dennis
June 22, 2022 10:20 pm

Very much foreseen and acknowledged by Origin (owned by Queensland Government) but obviously for political reasons brushed under the carpet. EV’s should have a special levy to resolve the problems that they cause to the grid.

Bryan A
Reply to  Streetcred
June 22, 2022 10:49 pm

What would you expect from a mode of transportation that takes 12 – 14 hours to recharge at regular home voltages.
If you leave for work at 6 a.m. and it takes 12 hours to recharge at 120V you NEED to plug in by 6 p.m. to be ready to go the next day. If both partners work then both cars will be plugged in at 6 p.m. or earlier be ready to go the next morning.
Further, if you live in a high fire threat area, you need to have your car fully charged every day as you never know when you might need to bug out

Reply to  Bryan A
June 22, 2022 10:56 pm

During 2019/2020 bushfires in Australia a news story was printed about a local young man rescuing visitors who were travelling in an EV and could not recharge because the grid had failed.

He drove them out of danger in his crew cab diesel 4WD truck.

Bryan A
Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 6:25 am

Aren’t Trucks great

Reply to  Bryan A
June 23, 2022 6:34 pm

Your numbers are off.

Typical 40A 7.7 KW home chargers will recharge 80% of a typical EV battery (75-100 kw-hr capacity) in 8-10 hours of charging. That’s enough range to cover a typical week of commuting and local trips for the average driver.

Plug it in and set it to start charging at 8 pm and it will complete the charge before you finish breakfast.

Bryan A
Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 10:30 pm

Perhaps If you’re charging from a 240v plug (like a typical 220v Dryer outlet) but not from a typical 120v house outlet. Those take twice as long.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Streetcred
June 23, 2022 6:31 am

Don’t know about Australia but here in the UK they are actively investigating the possibility of using EVs to power the grid never mind the other way round.

MM from Canada
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 23, 2022 7:38 am

EVs can’t “power the grid.” The batteries don’t create power; they only store it. And if the grid is taking stored electricity from EVs, then what is the vehicle owner supposed to do when s/he needs to use the car?
Do none of these people have even the basic knowledge of how batteries work?

Reply to  MM from Canada
June 23, 2022 1:06 pm

At present, no EVs have the circuitry that would be needed to take power from the battery and put it onto the grid. Such circuitry would add at least several hundred dollars to the price of your EV.

Reply to  MarkW
June 23, 2022 6:37 pm

Not true – all Ford EVs are built standard to power your home in a blackout. If it powers your home it can also power the local grid, just as home solar units sell power back to the grid.

Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 8:15 pm

Yup. Big ad campaign on that capability, Duane.

They are fast! too. Zoooooom!

And the range is… well, I’ll stick with my truck that gets about 650 to 700 miles on a tank of fuel all while towing 16,000 pounds.

Stuart Lynne
Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 8:21 pm

So you want to use some of the limited lifetime charge cycles selling power back to the grid? Wear your vehicle out sooner than later?

Bryan A
Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 10:37 pm

Typically If the grid is in blackout conditions, and your home has solar, the system is designed to kill your solar capability so you DON’T back feed into the grid. The same would apply to your EV, and believe me you don’t want your EV powering the grid. The demand potential would likely damage your battery From the fast discharge. The amount of energy in an EV battery would last a matter of seconds before depletion or would be so minimal as to be unusable for the grid

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
June 24, 2022 7:02 am

Powering your house while insulated from the grid is one thing, trying to put power out on the grid is something else entirely!

How is the power converter in your Ford EV going to sync itself to the grid frequency during a blackout so you and all your neighbors inputs to the grid don’t fight each other?

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
June 24, 2022 12:28 pm

You don’t have a clue about frequency and phase in AC circuits do you?

How do you synchronize four F150’s that are tied to the same distribution transformer? How do you synchronize multiple sources feeding multiple transformers?

Do you know why frequency control on a grid is needed? Don’t use the old excuse of clocks. Discuss the effects on the AC being provided by multiple sources.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
June 24, 2022 12:30 pm

Do you know why transfer switches are used between backup generators and the AC mains? Discuss what happens if you don’t do this and the power comes back on.

Reply to  Duane
June 24, 2022 6:29 pm

OK, 1% instead of 0%. However you still need the much more expensive electronics needed to synchronize your batteries to the grid.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  MarkW
June 24, 2022 11:00 am

What is never discussed in this scenario is frequency and phase control when sending power from several residences back through a distribution transformer. Does anyone know what happens when you connect several unsynchronized sources in frequency and phase to a common point such as the input to a transformer? It won’t be pretty!

Dave Andrews
Reply to  MM from Canada
June 24, 2022 9:09 am

I know. The trials at the moment under a £30m funding programme from the UK Government seem to be concentrating on switching charging of the EV on and off to match grid needs, but many hints have been dropped that EV owners could make money by selling electricity to the grid!

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 24, 2022 12:52 pm

They know that if all vehicles and everything else is electric the grid won’t be able to cope but at the moment they are just hiding their heads in the sand.

Steve Richards
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 23, 2022 8:13 am

From July this year all UK home EV chargers must be of the ‘smart’ type……

Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 23, 2022 12:33 pm

Yes, it all reminds me of the vehicle in ‘Barbarella’ that used a turbine mounted at its rear to blow wind at a sail mounted at the front !

Gunga Din
Reply to  IanE
June 24, 2022 9:33 am

I was 14 when I snuck into a theater to see it.
One of the few Jane Fonda movies I could ever “bare” to watch. 😎

Gunga Din
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 23, 2022 1:11 pm

“Don’t know about Australia but here in the UK they are actively investigating the possibility of using EVs to power the grid never mind the other way round.”

Simple solution.
All EVs must be plugged in 24/7.
Half the EVs will be programmed to “reverse the polarity” at midnight to charge the grid.
The other half will be programmed to “reverse the polarity” at noon to charge the grid.
Throw in a few unicorns on treadmills and you have a perpetual power grid!

Rick C
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 23, 2022 3:01 pm

Hmm- wonder how “they” plan to prevent people from unplugging their EV the instant the flow is reversed?

Reply to  Dennis
June 22, 2022 10:25 pm

A$1 trillion….and that’s at today’s copper prices…

Reply to  DMacKenzie
June 22, 2022 10:44 pm

With Build Back Better everything is affordable 😉

Mike Lowe
Reply to  Dennis
June 22, 2022 10:43 pm

$1,000,000 would be a gross underestimate. Multiply by at least 10!

Reply to  Mike Lowe
June 22, 2022 11:53 pm

He said “trillion”. That would be “multiplied by 1,000,000.”

Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 3:33 am

And the rich areas will get hit first poetic justice

Dave Fair
Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 6:52 am

We weren’t told that charging of our EV would be controlled by the bureaucrats. And so goes the continuing decline in Western countries’ quality of life. Don’t you love Leftism?

Bill Powers
Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 11:32 am

Never fear. I understand they are breeding unicorns to solve the problem. Every self respecting (because nobody else does) Post Modernist knows that Unicorn farts will power the grid and Unicorn gas is “Carbon Free” because Unicorns feed off of rainbows and once Central Authoritarian Governments control the Climate they will be able to manufacture rainbows wherever unicorns are bred. Problem solved with leftist ingenuity.

June 22, 2022 10:13 pm

With charging stations drawing anywhere up to about 20kW (probably averaging about 7kW), when everyone gets home from work and plugs in it would crush the grid. You would plug in, because if you don’t, when the power inevitably goes out, you’re stuck.

Where they are heading is rationed power and rolling blackouts. You’ll get power that will be on long enough to maybe charge your car once a week. Thereby limiting your ability to travel drastically. You’ll own nothing, and you’ll be happy.

Normally, this sort of scenario would be so far out of the realm of possibility to be absurd. But given what has transpired over the last few years, it’s well within the foreseeable outcomes. They want POWER above all else, even if it means destroying the whole world to get it.

Bryan A
Reply to  MarkH
June 22, 2022 11:04 pm

Where they’re heading is mandatory roof top solar charging powerwall batteries to be able to recharge your Guilded golf carts Off Grid

About $60,000 – $120,000 for the Solar Installation 30KW for 25kW of battery recharging
About $18,000 for 25kW of storage

Double for 50kW storage for further range EVs
Double again for 2 EVs

Then the expense of buying 2 EVs to replace your current ICE $85,000 – $220,000 (more if you buy other high end EVs)

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 23, 2022 6:27 am

The average vehicle age in the US fleet is over 12 years so that limits EVs to throwaways or expensive OVs (old vehicles).

Dave Fair
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 23, 2022 6:56 am

And no used car market. That will devastate the “unwealthy.”

Reply to  Bryan A
June 23, 2022 1:09 pm

The other problem is that there are no roofs big enough to capture enough energy to charge an EV in just one day. A bit of a top off is all you can hope for.

Reply to  MarkW
June 23, 2022 7:58 pm

You’re in luck if you work the night shift. Home in the day and the EV charges from your solar panels.

OTOH, if you’re a regular day shift worker, good luck charging your car overnight. Oh wait. Just shine a searchlight on your panels and it’s all good, right?

(Gosh. Better put a winky on this one. Some people might actually think it’s a good idea. griff? Here’s the 😉)

Reply to  MarkH
June 22, 2022 11:27 pm

The charging outlets in your home will be remotely controlled so you can’t start charging until dinner hour peak electricity demand has passed. Leftists ruin everything the touch. So that won’t work as hoped for, but they’ll try it anyway
To think like a leftist, I delete reason and accountability, and then fall down and hit my head on the sidewalk. While still dizzy I can think like a leftist.

Reply to  Richard Greene
June 23, 2022 3:47 am

I actually think that their logic circuits are disabled.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Mac
June 23, 2022 6:29 am

It’s probably just that people with no logical ability become lefties.

Paul Penrose
Reply to  Mac
June 23, 2022 9:45 am

No, I believe they can think logically, however that is a lot of work, so they choose to just go with their feelings. Basically they are intellectually lazy and intentionally ignorant.

Reply to  MarkH
June 23, 2022 4:18 am

you mean amps not KW surely ?

Bob B
Reply to  MarkH
June 23, 2022 4:28 am

No worries, if the grid fails then you can just use your F-150 Lightening to power your home and charging station. Right?

Peter Wells
Reply to  MarkH
June 23, 2022 8:43 am

Let’s see if I understand this properly. We use solar power for electricity in our homes. When we get home from work we then use it to recharge our EVs, when the sun is lower in the sky and we need power to fix supper and read the mail. Night comes, and we use what to recharge the EVs? But all day the solar power has been used to cool our houses, keep the refrigerator going, do the laundry, and so on. Good luck with reality.

Reply to  MarkH
June 23, 2022 6:46 pm

Nope. Most home charging is done overnight when the grid is operating far below peak capacity. EVs will typically need overnight charging just one night in 7, meaning the average grid wide demand, if all vehicles were EVs, would only be about 1 KW per vehicle per night mostly drawn during off peak hours. In the summer most homes are air conditioned every single hour of the day at an average rate of 3-5 KW including during the highest demand at the peak daytime hours.

Bryan A
Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 10:39 pm

My commute is 93 miles one way so I would be recharging a little more than once a week

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
June 24, 2022 7:05 am

When I was a rural newspaper carrier my route was almost exactly 100 miles, start to finish. Twice a day. 200 miles per day just to deliver papers. When I was a telephone supervisor my commute was 200 miles per day round trip.

This is *NOT* unique out here in flyover country. Tell me again how these vehicles won’t need to be recharged every night?

(this doesn’t even count fleet vehicles!)

Reply to  Duane
June 24, 2022 6:34 pm

While it is marginally true that the lowest demand in the summer is over night. However if you start charging millions of EVs during that period, then you will quickly find that the highest demand is at night.
During the winter, the highest demand is currently at night, since that’s when the heating needs are the greatest.
Finally, once the renewables, which you are a big proponent of become more than a minor fraction of total power generation, this “surplus” at night quickly disappears.

In conclusion, you are once again letting your wishes Trump reality.

June 22, 2022 10:16 pm

There were six aluminium smelters operating in Australia, two have closed since the transition to renewable energy commenced and the other four are at risk of closing in the near future;

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Dennis
June 22, 2022 10:45 pm

Nothing to do with renewable energy. Look at Iceland where abundant renewable energies sources means that it is one of the cheapest places to make aluminium.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 22, 2022 10:52 pm

World Atlas

The World’s Leading Bauxite Producing Countries
RankCountryBauxite Production (in thousand tonnes),
Jamaica 9,8007

Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 22, 2022 11:25 pm

It’s clear you don’t understand the process, it doesn’t matter how cheap the power is it has to be there 24/7 for the smelter. Those I know well in Western Australia don’t even trust the WA grid operator they have there own co-location power stations and feed back in to the state grid.

Kwinana Alumina Refinery, Alcoa Australia   74.5MW   natural gas
Pinjarra Alumina Refinery, Alcoa Australia   95 MW   natural gas
Wagerup Alumina Refinery, Alcoa Australia   98 MW   natural gas
Worsley Refinery power station                216 MW      coal
Worsley Refinery power station                120 MW      natural gas

They are not unique there are a number of mine and mine process sites that run co-generation.

So all of those sites have 2 power supplies there own and that provided by the grid operator … diversity of supply is the most important thing and trumps cost 🙂

There is also a good write-up on the transition of the Western Australian grid which will be held up by our gas reserves.

Reply to  LdB
June 23, 2022 12:13 am

“It’s clear you don’t understand the process, it doesn’t matter how cheap the power is it has to be there 24/7 for the smelter. Those I know well in Western Australia…”
You don’t know them at all. There are no aluminium smelters in Western Australia. What you have listed are alumina refineries. They produce refined alumina.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 12:27 am

Yes true .. see Nick that is how simple it is to acknowledge an error a lesson you could learn.

Doesn’t change the fact these energy intensive activities require guaranteed continuity of supply something renewables will struggle with (excluding hydro).

Reply to  LdB
June 23, 2022 1:44 am

” these energy intensive activities require guaranteed continuity of supply”
Alumina refineries use cogeneration. They need a lot of low grade heat to dissolve the alumina in caustic solution at 150-200°C. They do this with steam. It is economic to run a generator and use the steam byproduct from that. That is why they are there.

Pinjarra explains:
“The cogeneration unit is one of Western Australia’s most energy efficient power plants. Waste heat from the gas turbines generates steam for Alcoa’s Pinjarra refinery and Alinta supplies power at lower cost to customers within the South-West Interconnected System (SWIS).”

“Alcoa’s steam generation facilities at Pinjarra consisted of six gas-fired boilers, which produced an average 910t/h of high-pressure steam. The cogeneration facilities provide steam more efficiently (more than 80% efficient compared with 25% to 50% for other power plants operating in WA) and at lower cost. The steam produced by each cogeneration facility replaces the requirement for 240t/h of high-pressure steam previously generated by the refinery’s boilers.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 2:51 am

Don’t forget the 1000 degree temperatures required for the calcination of the aluminium oxide, to ensure that the water is driven off. If you don’t do this, your alumina is next to worthless on the world market.

You are not going to get to a 1000 degrees with steam. Direct heat by burning is the only sensible option.

Reply to  Eng_Ian
June 23, 2022 3:26 am

Again from Pinjarra:
Alumina production takes heavy energy inputThe bauxite recovered from the Darling Range is of a low quality. For every three tons of bauxite mined, only one ton of alumina is recovered. This means more energy has to be used to remove the alumina from this low-grade ore than at refineries with higher grade ore. The Pinjarra refinery uses three forms of energy in the alumina refining process: natural gas, steam and electricity.”

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 6:07 am

Is there any subject for which you are not the world’s leading expert?

Reply to  Carlo, Monte
June 23, 2022 12:23 pm

I don’t know about that 🙁

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 7:19 pm

On that regard you are on the wrong track that is just efficiency for a deeper problem.

Now lets see if you really know anything tell us why it needs continuity of supply and I am not talking about economic impact there is a basic problem in the process if power is lost.

Nickel processing (that again is just pre production to meet your nitpick) at sites needs continuity for a different reason and they often co-gen as well.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 6:06 am

Nitpick Nick Strikes Again!

Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 23, 2022 12:00 am

Do you know the source of Icelands “renewable” energy? It is 75% hydro and 25% geothermal – neither of which are intermittent like the unreliable solar and wind that Australia intends to rely on.

Reply to  StuM
June 23, 2022 12:08 am

Politicians in Australia apparently believe unreliable solar and wind could be relied upon, just add more installations and batteries and construct a renewable energy friendly new grid.

And of course pumped hydro storage firming back up.

Baseload generators (coal fired power stations or even nuclear not wanted).

What is not acknowledged is the over one hundred years of reliable and cheap electricity supply from black and brown coal fired power stations that also had to cope with the many manufacturing industry businesses that have closed down since the transition to renewable energy commenced, and earlier when the Labor Federal Government signed the UN Lima Protocol in 1975 agreeing to a transfer of manufacturing industry to developing nations, like China.

So, without those major consumers of electricity the recent crisis highlighted the loss of reliable supply available.

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  StuM
June 23, 2022 1:09 am

This is part of the smoke and mirrors operation of the renewables crowd. By classifying geothermal and hydro as “renewable”, they can persuade gullible politicians that wind and solar are viable technologies. “Look at Iceland, they produce excess energy with renewables, so can you” Just don’t look behind the curtain..

Old Man Winter
Reply to  StuM
June 23, 2022 4:01 am

Rich Davis
Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 23, 2022 4:00 am

The population of Iceland is 376,248.

There are two boroughs of London with higher populations than Iceland (Barnet, Croyden)
And no, izzy, I don’t care what the ethnicity may be.

Iceland exported $1.34 billion in aluminum in 2020. Less than 1% of the $150 billion global production in that same year.

Iceland is an interesting place to visit to see volcanoes, geysers, glaciers, and aurora borealis. Otherwise it’s irrelevant.

Dennis G. Sandberg
Reply to  Rich Davis
June 29, 2022 7:37 pm

Leftist’s aren’t into looking at things quantitatively, only qualitatively, wind and solar good, natural gas and nuclear bad. Emissions bad, cost benefit analysis, irrelevant.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 23, 2022 6:11 am

Iceland is very much an unique case. Yes, they have a lot of geothermal but most of that is surface hot springs used for building heat. Most of their electricity (~ 75% IIRC) is hydro; most of the rest is deep well geothermal.

The largest aluminum smelter in Iceland is Alcoa’s Fjarðaál smelter, which runs off a dedicated hydro dam purpose-built for it. I haven’t checked recently, but as of 2014 the largest power source for aluminum smelting worldwide was coal, followed by hydro, followed by nuclear. Wind and solar need not apply.

China accounts for roughly half the world’s annual aluminum production, and I bet most of that power comes from coal and the rest from hydro. Tiny Iceland produces about the same amount of aluminum as the US with just three operating smelters and 0.1% of the population.

I realize many people consider hydro to be “renewable” (which by all rules of technical consistency is correct), but it is excluded from most of the calculations regarding renewable targets. Hydro has been around for over 100 years and when most people talk about transitioning to “renewables” they mean predominantly wind and solar and other “new” technologies.

There are smelters powered by dedicated coal plants, dedicated hydro dams and I believe in one case a dedicated nuclear plant. You can’t find any smelters powered by dedicated wind or solar farms.

In any case, Iceland has more per capita geothermal and hydro resources than any other country; you can’t generalize from a special case.

Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
June 23, 2022 8:46 am

Hydro is largely discounted, as most of the best sites are already occupied by a dam. In any case, the Green Fascists will fight a new dam just as hard as they will a new nuclear plant.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 23, 2022 6:36 am

There’s a difference between geothermal power / hydro and unreliable wind power.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 23, 2022 1:11 pm

Another example of how to lie with statistics.
The “renewable” power being used in Iceland is hydro and geothermal. They aren’t using wind and solar.

Andy Wilkins
Reply to  Izaak Walton
June 24, 2022 5:10 am

Wow, Iceland must be doing a great job making aluminium with just solar and wind!
Oh, hang on, it’s not that kind of renewables.
You need to try a lot harder Izaak.

Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 2:30 am

“two have closed since the transition to renewable energy commenced”
They closed in 2012 and 2014. They were hardly affected by renewables then In fact both were small and old. Alcan had got out of Kurri Kurri in 1995, and it was limping along after that till closing in 2012. Pt Henry was not only small but on land that had become urban. It closed in 2014. It had its own coal-fired power station (with mine).

It’s true that smelting may contract further, but the reason is competition from smelting in China, not renewables.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 3:00 am

And if an Australian smelter could access power at the chinese prices, would they be competitive?

Wages may impact the Oz smelters but generally operate at higher standards and hence have a higher market price for their products. For the same reason, you can buy very high quality from, the very high wage and taxation based, Norway.

Smelters in the western world get outdated and hence less productive compared to their peers, for this reason they close. As a guide, the first smelter I got near to operated on 150k Amps. A low level smelter now wouldn’t think of running at less than 300k Amps. And since the amperage sets the pot sizes, conductors, etc, etc, you can’t just update this one feature. Remember, for the doubled current you produce twice the aluminium AND all for the same labour cost. That’s why the old ones close. You are correct to conclude that it is NOT due to renewables, (exclusively).

Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 23, 2022 8:38 pm

So the introduction of the carbon tax in 2012 was not an affect of renewables? It was a direct cost imposition for the purpose of making renewables cost competitive. Every Australian business with high energy exposure either restructured or shut down.

Dennis G. Sandberg
Reply to  Nick Stokes
June 29, 2022 7:45 pm

Everything is cheaper in China, therefore, mine nothing, manufacture nothing, import everything, no emissions, minimize energy consumption. Progressive business model. Short on money? Make big oil pay their fair share,

Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 8:41 am

I see that Nick and Izaak have the obfuscation duty today.

The two “renewable” sources that can actually replace fossil/nuclear fuels are hydro and geothermal.

There are limited suitable hydro sites – and the Green Fascists will fight your building one every last step of the way.

There are even more limited suitable geothermal sites. Very, very limited. Iceland is one of the few – Australia is NOT.

In either case, NEITHER of those are available to Western Australia.

Steam is used in part of the alumina refining process. WHERE does the steam come from? Why boilers – which use natural gas, a fossil fuel that will NOT be available in the Green New World.

Then you need a high temperature and dry source of heat to complete the process. WHERE does that come from? Why, from natural gas again, and electricity. One will be unavailable in the Green New World – and the other will be available only when the sun is high in the sky and the wind blows.

Nick and Izaak – just being Nick and Izaak, spouting their scripted lines every time.

Dennis G. Sandberg
Reply to  Dennis
June 29, 2022 7:04 pm

Mine nothing, manufacture nothing, import everything to reduce emissions and save energy. The new business model for The West (including Australia). Notice how this is ending up? I-N-F-L-A-T-I-O-N printing money to replace absent tax receipts),

June 22, 2022 10:18 pm

Local reticulation is already overloaded. These consequences were known about a few years ago already … I had a discussion back then with Origin planners on transformer sizing for a property development and they brought this to my attention then already. Authorities have chosen to hide their heads in the sand so as not to derail the Great Putsch against fossil fuels.

Reply to  Streetcred
June 23, 2022 1:48 am

very good and important comment.
Electricity suppliers have complex business models for new housing and industrial estates and other commercial developments. Significant discounts are allowed for capital cost based on projected supply income. This becomes very difficult with changing rules. Someone has to ultimately wear the additional costs.

Lewis P Buckingham
Reply to  Streetcred
June 23, 2022 1:56 am

Speaking to a grid builder recently she said that the power density demands of new shopping areas are well above the capacity of the network to supply them without major rebuilding.This is because of the a/cs and fridges lifts and so on.
Origin is about to reap a bonaza out of this by bumping up the base power to business by about 25%
‘Your new prices All prices include GST and any discounts of your plan. They don’t include any concession rebates, or extras like green energy. Charge description Charges as at 30 June 2022 New Charges from 1 July 2022 Difference Usage first 328.7672 kWh per day 26.686 cents per kWh 33.418 cents per kWh 6.732 cent increase Remaining usage 26.807 cents per kWh 33.539 cents per kWh 6.732 cent increase Daily Supply 109.219 cents per day 120.351 cents per day 11.132 cent increase You can find the hours for any Peak, Off-peak or Shoulder charges on your latest bill, or in the contract we sent when you signed up. Solar feed-in credits are for any electricity exported back to the grid by a Solar PV system at your Supply Address. As you can see from this letter, prices do change from time to time. We’ll always let you know if they change again

Hello there,
With the cost of living going up, we know many Australians are already feeling the pinch. So I want to start this
letter by encouraging you to reach out if you’re struggling with your energy bills. We’re here to help.
On 1 July 2022 your electricity rates are going up. Among other factors, our overall costs to buy and generate
electricity have gone up in the last few months. Global rises in the price of coal and natural gas and unplanned
power plant outages have had a big impact.
What’s happening at a glance
• Your electricity rates are going up from 1 July 2022.
• We understand this is difficult for some people. We’re always here to talk if you need help.
Understanding price changes
Have you noticed petrol and grocery prices on the rise? Unfortunately, the energy industry hasn’t escaped. Global
inflation rates, weather events, overseas conflict and power plant outages all play a part in determining our costs to
source and supply electricity and natural gas.
In the past, we’ve been able to lower prices. We hope to do so again in the future. But sometimes, increases do
happen. Visit for more on what goes into your prices.
Changes to your electricity rates
After the change, your Origin Business Basic plan rates will be the same as the reference price. That’s
$3,781.00/year estimated annual cost for an average small business using 10,000 kWh/year in the Endeavour
Energy network. This estimate is not based on your actual usage. Your bills will vary according to how much you
use. It also doesn’t take solar feed-in tariffs into account.
To make it super clear, we’ve listed out your current charges vs your new charges further down so you can
compare side by side.
They seem to think that running sunk costed coal fired power stations then blowing them up is not something to think about, or for that matter the Eastern Seaboard ‘lock the gates’ campaign which meant we were denied cheap much greener dispatchable power while the unreliables stopped working.
The kicker is that even if you put on solar they won’t give you back the top usage first fee, only the later ones, driving you into energy scarcity.
Simply a carbon tax imposed by the retailer.
25% hit, the PJT should investigate.

Mike Lowe
June 22, 2022 10:42 pm

Isn’t that obvious? I’ve known it for years, and nothing has happened to change my mind. Every EV driver will want to plug in as soon as they get home. Admittedly, many of these early-adopters will be well-off folk with their own driveway to park on, but later mandated ones will be far more numerous and the cable infrastructure just will not cope. Thus blowing circuit breakers and causing local blackouts.

Reply to  Mike Lowe
June 22, 2022 10:45 pm

If one blows just plug into another one 😉

Mike Lowe
Reply to  Derg
June 23, 2022 3:16 am

Streets away? Need a very long and very heavy cable for that!

Reply to  Mike Lowe
June 23, 2022 3:42 am

I was joking

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mike Lowe
June 23, 2022 5:35 am

I really, REALLY want to know what the insurance companies estimate for future losses as thieves steal all those on-street charging cables to sell for salvage! Stealing outside air-conditioning units is already big business, I can’t imagine what stealing charging cables will turn out to be!

Reply to  Mike Lowe
June 23, 2022 5:27 am

The plebs will not be allowed cars, that’s why it will ‘work’….

June 22, 2022 10:42 pm

Of course the Central Australia EV recharging stations, the very few that are available, are not connected to a grid, they are diesel generator connected.

And the politicians are promising more recharging stations for EV.


Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 4:26 pm

Yes, there is a company that produces stand-alone EV recharging stations with their own diesel generator for use at Australian outback fuel sites. One site claims that they plan to run the EV diesel using old cooking fat.

Mike Lowe
June 22, 2022 10:46 pm

I’d call it “imaginative”!

June 22, 2022 10:47 pm
June 22, 2022 10:56 pm

Do EVs have neutral so’s they can be pushed out of the garages?

Forrest Gardener
Reply to  Mr.
June 23, 2022 3:23 am

You might just be onto something. All EV owners need to do is to ensure that there is one road downhill to where they want to go and another road downhill to get home.

Reply to  Forrest Gardener
June 23, 2022 3:43 am


Reply to  Forrest Gardener
June 23, 2022 5:30 am

95% of EVs ever made are still on the road. The other 5% made it home…

Trying to play Nice
Reply to  Forrest Gardener
June 23, 2022 7:17 am

And they can recharge from the regenerative braking both ways.

Richard Page
Reply to  Mr.
June 23, 2022 5:21 am

And pedals, as a backup power supply!

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Richard Page
June 23, 2022 6:13 am

Fred Flintstone!

William Ballinger
June 22, 2022 11:19 pm

Popcorn futures up again.

June 22, 2022 11:21 pm

Make the grid less reliable with weather dependent electricity.
At great expense.
Encourage people to buy electric cars.
At a much higher cost than ICE cars.
And use electric appliances rather than gas appliances.
What could possibly go wrong?

I know this sounds cruel but climate realists in the US
are hoping for blackout disasters in Australia and Germany,
as the canaries in the coal mine
for our own Nut Zero green dreams.
Some people getting hurt, or even dying from the heat now,
may reduce suffering and deaths in the long run.

But I wonder if canaries in the coal mine will change leftist minds.
If their goobermint says more wind and solar energy
is the answer to preventing blackouts caused
by wind and solar energy, they repeat what they hear
like a flock of trained parrots.

Reply to  Richard Greene
June 23, 2022 3:13 am

If “more wind and solar energy is the answer to preventing blackouts”, then when a blackout happens all you have to do is phone the wind and solar energy suppliers and ask them to increase supply. Now.

Fact is, no matter what anyone might say about coal-fired or gas-fired supply failures, every single grid failure now comes exactly at a time when both wind and solar have failed.

Trying to play Nice
Reply to  Mike Jonas
June 23, 2022 7:19 am

Dementia Joe will just issue an Executive Order to supply more wind and sunlight.

June 22, 2022 11:35 pm

They sell you a glorified (communicating over IP, remote controlled) mono 230 V 32 A socket, for only 5001€ without taxes.

To charge a car with 7.4 kW power.

Or 67 euro cent for each watt of power.

But you can manage that huuuuuge power source in mode 3!

Why do stuff like that exist?
I guess it’s mode 3 because they fear they wouldn’t be able to handle the load without the “smart” devices, if many are installed!

June 22, 2022 11:44 pm

Help me to understand why they must run tests.

I would think a person with a decent education in electrical engineering could have figure this out in five minutes using a basic calculator.

Am I missing something?

Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 23, 2022 12:13 am

Be reasonable, see it their way.

Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 9:37 am

Well, to paraphrase the excellent Sen Kennedy from Louisiana, “I can’t get my head far enough up my ass to see their point of view.”

Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 23, 2022 4:33 am

Computers predict whatever they are programmed to predict.
They verify preconceptions because they are programmed
based on those preconceptions. Circular reasoning is the only
reasoning leftists are capable of.

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  Ken
June 23, 2022 1:22 am

This is similar to my first reaction, why the hell would they have to build a system to run a trial? It’s pretty obvious that the most likely time that people would want to charge an EV is the period between the end of one working day and the start of the next, which for the majority of people is going to be between 6PM-6AM Monday to Friday and weekends. How much money did they waste in the pursuit of the bleeding obvious?

June 22, 2022 11:51 pm

No rest for our newly elected climate changers and Minister Bowen now as energy companies like Origin have to strike while the iron is hot.

I note our good lefty perfessor Quiggin has the answer to it all-
The national electricity market is a failed 1990s experiment. It’s time the grid returned to public hands (
Just one giant acronym to rule it all eh John? The Great People’s Department of Renewables.

Reply to  observa
June 23, 2022 12:02 am

State owned Electricity Commissions originally owned and operated the power stations and electricity grid (interconnected between the States and one Territory), and Snowy Mountains Hydro power stations were owned by the Federal and State Government as shareholders.

Privatisation of those public assets was based on Federal Labor Government establishing an over 30 per cent Renewable Energy Target with incentive subsidies for private sector investors, and penalising coal fired power stations including forcing operators to reduce or stop electricity supply when wind and/or solar installations were operating.

June 22, 2022 11:58 pm

I was once interested in an EV that could do 0 – 60 mph in 2.5 seconds. Highly impractical but fun. Upon further reflection, I decided against pursuing the thrills.

I still have an affection for the internal combustion engines with the sounds of power, not the silent spontaneous combustion types.

Reply to  Brad-DXT
June 23, 2022 3:19 am

I once saw an EV do a 3-pt turn in a city street. Quicker than an eye-blink. Awesome. So there actually is something that EVs are really good for.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
June 23, 2022 4:39 am

Everything about EVs is great except those darn batteries.
Too expensive
Too heavy
Too slow to recharge
Won’t last as long as an ICE with regular oil changes.
A hybrid gets some of the advantages of electric and ICE.
They are more expensive than ICE but should have
a good return on investment if you drive average
or above average miles per year.

We have tested a Toyota Camry hybrid twice before
deciding to buy Toyota Camry ICEs. We don’t drive
enough miles to justify the extra cost and complexity
of a hybrid Camry. But the technology is proven.

Trying to play Nice
Reply to  Brad-DXT
June 23, 2022 7:23 am

How many times can you do that before spending $20k+ on a new battery?

June 23, 2022 12:01 am

Origin Energy has teamed up with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) to understand ways to change the behaviour of electric car owners before their mass adoption in Australia.”

A good way to change the behaviour of future electric car owners in order to decrease the impact on the grid is to inform them so that they buy a gas-powered engine vehicle instead of a coal powered EV.

Forrest Gardener
Reply to  Petit_Barde
June 23, 2022 3:25 am

Or install the optional diesel generator.

June 23, 2022 12:10 am

Well known issue swept under the carpet.. This was highlighted years ago when 3 EV’s charged in a street knocked out the local grid.. No wonder professionals are looking at leaving the country.

June 23, 2022 12:32 am

Well every plan I’ve ever seen for rolling out 100% EVs includes plans to use smart charging…

and do note that in many places like the UK charging will not be needed every day and will not all take place immediately after people return from work…

the average car use in UK would require just one or two charges a week and there will be plenty charging while shopping, at the gym, while parked at work or commuter rail station.

do look at why the grid in Oslo is not overloaded…

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Eric Worrall
June 23, 2022 10:07 am

It’s interesting that until about September 2021 the UK was net importer of electricity from France, after that we’ve been a net exporter to France. A common situation this year has been for the UK to import power from Norway and Holland and export to France a similar amount. Electrons just passing through. Sometimes with additional coal added when it’s not windy like today. The imports have gradually been reducing and exports increasing

It makes me worry about winter, even without the current gas and oil supply problems somebody’s grid must be running on empty.

Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 12:55 am

Last I looked Australia isn’t in the UK and is nothing like it 🙂

Hint => The article is about Australia and how the hell it would ever go full greentard

Always love greentards who champion a postage stamp of a country that can manage to do something.

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 1:32 am

I did:

The vast majority of electricity produced in Norway comes from hydro power. In 2020, hydro accounted for roughly 92 percent of electricity output in the Nordic country. Wind power contributed another 6.4 percent to Norway’s electricity mix.”

Mike Lowe
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 3:23 am

So you will encourage – nay, expect – some EV owners to come home from work at 7pm and wait until 2 am before plugging their EV in to the charging point? Most won’t!

Tim Gorman
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 5:43 am

What happens when someone comes along and steals your charging cable while you are shopping, at the gym, parked at work, or at the commuter rail station?

Think your auto insurance will pay?

How do you get home when your EV didn’t get a charge because someone stole your cable?

Are all the Soros-funded district attorneys going to prosecute all the cable thieves in order to deter the thefts?

Reply to  Tim Gorman
June 23, 2022 1:21 pm

That will depend on what race the thieves are. If they are white males, there is a good chance of them being prosecuted. Everyone else, probably not.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 6:19 am

You ignore all the other demands that will be put upon the electric grid. New natural gas connections are started to be denied everywhere and plans to eventually discontinue existing natural gas connections. In the UK there are plans to eliminate boilers and move to heat pumps. Water heaters will become all electric as will kitchen ranges and barbeque grills.

First, go to your breaker box. Is it large enough to add at least 3 high current circuits, one each for EV charging, furnace/boiler, electric range?

Two, go look at your existing electric drop. Is it large enough wire to carry twice the current you are now using?

Three, look at the transformer serving your residence. Is it large enough to supply all the additional current to the number of homes that are connected to it? Remember, you can’t just increase the voltage to that distribution transformer because you will certainly need a new transformer, insulators, and hardware if you do that.

Four, go to the substation serving all those local distribution transformers. Are they large enough to carry the additional current? Are the distribution cables large enough to carry the additional current to all the local transformers?

Five, go find the number of high current EV charging stations being installed or planned. Where do you think the power to supply those comes from. I can almost assure you they will not be supplied directly from a grid generating station. That means feeds, substation transformers, and distribution cable will need to be installed.

Lastly, add up the costs for all of this. I think you will find trillions won’t cover it. Where is the labor for upgrading all this originating? Can wire and transformer suppliers create the necessary hardware in a reasonable time? Can insulator manufacturers and housing breaker box suppliers create the necessary equipment in a timely manner.

In too many cases, politicians have made decisions not based on engineering and installation knowledge but instead they have based them on emotional whining from CAGW alarmists like yourself that have no knowledge or training in what is required for rebuilding the entire electrical grid to support large increases in demand.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 23, 2022 7:13 am

This site has an interesting discussion between a representative of UK Vehicle to Grid and a Doctor of Engineering at Southampton University.

The latter says of the c 1m UK residential 230v Low Voltage (LV) networks only10-20% are believed able to support EV charging. The remaining 80% are likely inadequate as they are built for ‘lighting plus’ (c 1.2kW loads) and not a 7kW EV and 9kW heat pump. It is estimated that rebuilding these networks could cost £60 billion or more and involve digging up most of the non motorway roads in the country.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 24, 2022 10:35 am

I suspect the £60 is extremely low. The costs will skyrocket due to demand for materials and labor costs will escalalate due to limited numbers of people to do the installation. I suspect £600 billion is more like it.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
June 23, 2022 9:47 am

Rather like sleeping Joe’s demand that there be charging stations every 50 miles on interstate highways. Whereinhell is the 440 volt 3 phase power coming from in all the rural and desolate areas. Hell, even in suburban areas. I don’t live that far from a city, and I couldn’t get 3 phase to run my machines, I had to build a 3 phase converter myself. Not very efficient, and definitely not efficient or economic for massive car charging loads.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Slowroll
June 23, 2022 12:21 pm

The power must still be provided thru your breaker box, drop, and transformer even with a converter. Not possible in many homes.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 6:51 am

Charging while shopping? The local Tesco supermarket has two chargers which are rarely used because in this part of NE Wales few people can afford an EV. But seriously how much charge are you going to get when the average shop takes half an hour at most?

Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 23, 2022 1:24 pm

How much will the price of groceries have to go up when Tesco has to install hundreds of charging stations?

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  MarkW
June 24, 2022 2:26 am

How much will they charge for the electricity and how much will the government add in duty. That’s why they are forcing the connection of smart meters on car charging points so they can replace fuel duty

Trying to play Nice
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 7:26 am

How many chargers will there be at Costco or at the gym? How much will they cost? How many chargers are the at the beach, the football stadium, etc.?

Reply to  Trying to play Nice
June 23, 2022 1:26 pm

Sounds like we are going to need three or four charging stations for each EV.
One at work, one where you shop, one for home and another one for when you have to travel.
Who’s going to pay for all those charging stations?

Dave Fair
Reply to  griff
June 23, 2022 9:02 am

Yeah, Griff, planned societies really work in large countries with people spread out all over.

Ben Vorlich
June 23, 2022 12:32 am

like they have in France” Like they used to have in France.

France’s energy transition law of 2015 provides that by 2030 40% of French electricity production must come from renewable sources. This coupled with, as Griff is always delighted to point out, technical issues with the latest generation of reactors means that France is rapidly joining/has already joined the “we’ve got grid problems” club. The move away from nuclear began before 2015.

There was always opposition in La France profonde but the Presidential campaign this year raised it a whole level. “Aeolian Non!” painted onto road surfaces the most visible sign

The subject of wind turbines in rural France has suddenly become one of the hottest issues ahead of Sunday’s first round of regional elections.
Marine Le Pen, leader of the far-right Rassemblement National, has called for a moratorium on their construction, while RN regional election candidates are busy decrying the “destruction’ of France’s natural heritage” – and going so far as to demand that some turbines be dismantled.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
June 23, 2022 3:12 am

“and going so far as to demand that some turbines be dismantled.”

A little common sense enters the picture.

Windmills are a blight on the landscape.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
June 23, 2022 1:27 pm

Greens (as opposed to environmentalists) are a blight on the landscape.

June 23, 2022 12:57 am

Fake news. The climate changers have all this under control with V2G don’t they griff? Nick will be along soon to explain the finer technical aspects of V2G.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  observa
June 23, 2022 7:21 am

See my reply below to Jim Gorman dated June 23rd 2022 7.13am re V2G in UK

Lewis P Buckingham
June 23, 2022 1:40 am

The original idea was that the cars would be recharged by solar during the day and the watt hours then put back into the grid at a good price to make money at night.
The problem with this was always that the car could easily often have an empty tank of electricity, so not be drivable on demand, particularly when used to go to work, unless the employer provided the solar charging, which may not be that effective on cloudy days.

June 23, 2022 1:41 am

I work for a woke organisation that has two electric cars in the fleet.
We have a range of vehicles to choose from.
I checked last months bookings

Average booking time for
Toyota Corollas (mix of normal ice & hybrid) 5.7 hours
Ford Rangers 6.2 hours
Hyundai Ionic 3.4 hours

While my workmates are happy to use EVs, they appear to be reluctant to go on long trips.

If your work role includes multiple site visits an EV is a poor vehicle option.

June 23, 2022 2:07 am

Sky News Australia this evening: The Government of Germany has announced that Germany will not ban diesel and petrol engine vehicles by 2035 as previously decided.

Add this to the re-commissioning of brown coal (Lignite) fired power stations as the wind revolution undermining the German economy crisis worsens.

Has the climate hoax reached the turning point back to economic reality common sense?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Dennis
June 23, 2022 3:20 am

Germany is being forced to recognize reality, in the short-term, anyway.

At least German leaders are making the moves necessary to keep their people warm this winter.

If Germany finds a new source of natural gas, they may go back to their old alarmist ways.

Michael in Dublin
June 23, 2022 2:53 am

What-a-mess” was a delightful series of childrens’ books in the eighties on an Afghan pup. They were really funny and my children loved them. Unfortunately there is nothing funny about the problems of charging large numbers of electric cars at the same time. This mess is no laughing matter.

Geoff Sherrington
June 23, 2022 4:55 am

Nick Stokes,
Re alumina refineries and aluminium smelters in Australia.
You might like to add to your understanding by researching the main reasons why Australia attracted this industry in the first place. A major factor was cheap, reliable electricity with a long future supply. We no longer have this.
These resource matters are easier to comprehend if you were a participant at the time, as was I.
I can offer to you to check your draft submissions here to lessen your probability of error when you elect to stray outside your key competences. Can I presume that a reciprocal arrangement might apply?
Geoff S

June 23, 2022 5:26 am

Is there something wrong here? Origin are mainly Electricity Retailers and Generators. Not sure they own any Network assets at all. Nothing in Wikipedia about it. The ABC story tells that Origin is teaming up with ARENA *and power distributors* with this initiative.

Sure I understand that retail pricing can be used to send signals to improve network utilisation but not sure Origin should be talking about “our grid”.

Most distribution networks become less loaded after about 8pm (evening peak). So from 8pm till 5am next day gives 9 hours of solid EV charging. Surely this is just a simple TOU tariff to encourage EV charging in that window. Not really rocket science or a complex problem.

Storm in a tea cup compared to the huge safety hazards of EV extension leads across footpaths to charge street-parked cars. Now that worries distributors much more.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Russell
June 23, 2022 5:48 am

Storm in a tea cup compared to the huge safety hazards of EV extension leads across footpaths to charge street-parked cars. Now that worries distributors much more.”

Don’t worry about this. The cable thieves will be by shortly to remove all the cables so they can sell them for copper salvage!!

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Tim Gorman
June 23, 2022 7:28 am

A friend of my wife has been without internet and landline connection for several months this year as thieves stole the wires and their replacements were gone within two weeks.

Andy Wilkins
Reply to  Dave Andrews
June 24, 2022 5:26 am

Gypsies love a bit of copper cable,

Trying to play Nice
Reply to  Russell
June 23, 2022 7:32 am

When there are 100% EVs the peak usage will be 8PM to 5AM as those vehicle recharge.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Trying to play Nice
June 24, 2022 5:37 am

There are currently over 1.4 billion ICEvs in the world. The IEA’s best estimate is that there might be 250 to 300 million EVs worldwide by by 2030. The EU estimates that there might be 140 to 220 million EVs in the EU by 2050.

It’s going to take an awful long time to get to 100% EVs if ever.

Dr. Bob
June 23, 2022 5:27 am

Li-Ion Batteries are expensive to manufacture and will only get more expensive as demand for raw materials increase. This article supporting a different technology has good info on battery costs for EV’s but I don’t believe that their solution is any better. But at least the data is useful.

Lithium-Sulfur Batteries are a Long-Term Solution to Rising EV Costsby George Liddle | Mar 15, 2022 | BatteriesBattery Supply ChainElectric Vehicles

As many people involved in the development of electric vehicles and their batteries know, almost half the cost of a new EV comes from its battery pack. That’s huge, particularly when you consider that traditional internal combustion engines (ICE) represent only 20 – 30% of vehicle costs today (see chart below). Now imagine that you’re an ICE vehicle manufacturer, and the cost of core materials to make the engine block are skyrocketing by factors of 50% to over 400%. How would you handle pricing your vehicles? You’d raise price by a lot because you need to make money instead of lose money when you sell them. Fortunately, that’s never happened in the ICE vehicle business. 

More at: Lithium-Sulfur Batteries are a Long-Term Solution to Rising EV Costs – Batteries for Electric Vehicles from Lyten

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Dr. Bob
June 24, 2022 5:29 am

But the IEA say that lithium prices have risen almost 750% since Jan 2021and they foresee worldwide shortages of lithium as early as 2025 so are lithium-sulpher batteries really going to make much of a difference?

Reply to  Dr. Bob
June 24, 2022 6:42 pm

1) A lithium-sulfur battery still has lithium.
2) How much heavier is this new battery? Li-ion was originally chosen because of its light weight.
3) Given how widely used iron is, even a tripling of ICE production wouldn’t have much of an impact on iron prices. Regardless, even if iron does double in price, the increased cost of an engine would be only a few dollars. Heck, the increase in cost for the entire care would only be a $100 or so.

June 23, 2022 8:51 am

They’re just now starting to figure this out?

James Kirk
June 23, 2022 8:56 am

DUH! Expect more of this when the WOKE take control.

June 23, 2022 10:54 am

Firstly, the peak electrical power demand hours are not in the evening but during the day.

Most EV charging is done overnight. If the government wants to mandate some sort of “charging hours” window, fine. Or, utilities can vary their power costs by time of day, as most already do now, with higher prices for peak demand hours, whatever they are in that area. The most effective incentive is money, anyway.

Most current model home EV chargers are so-called “smart” units that are programmable to charge only during off peak hours depending upon the local utility rate tables.

Finally, utilities love it when people use power at night because the most effective grid system is one that delivers power at a continuous static rate, rather than rates with large peaks and valleys. EVs are a great tool for doing that.

Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 1:33 pm

Duane, you have been corrected on this lie many times.
Peak demand is around 6pm.

EV charging is currently being done overnight. That can no longer be the case once your precious wind and solar become more than a tiny fraction of power production.

So you are fine with the government micro-managing everyone’s life. Everyday you demonstrate that your earlier claim to have been a Trump voter is just another of your lies.

Reply to  MarkW
June 23, 2022 4:09 pm

Here let me help Mark out with some current TOU electricity prices in Adelaide South Australia so he can run his cursor over the pie chart times-
Origin Basic – No Exit Fees (ORI152792MRE) | Energy Made Easy

Lefties love their averages(they want everyone to be average) and the average commuter does 30kms a day so with V2G the masses can all buy long range Teslas to firm the grid as they don’t need all that range. Never mind at night when coal goes and there’s not enough wind for any controlled load/off-peak rates as the nasty capitalist bosses etc will naturally put in EV chargers at work and carparks and surrounding streets to take advantage of the solar duck curve.

Bobsyeruncle and the global temperature is back to where lefties know it should be and don’t forget folks-
The Earth Is Warming, So Why Is Australia So Cold Right Now? (

Reply to  observa
June 23, 2022 4:19 pm

PS: There is a small hiccup with the vision splendid but nothing Gummints and their central banks can’t fix-
Elon Musk: Tesla’s Newest Factories Are ‘Money Furnaces’ (

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
June 23, 2022 3:47 pm

Firstly, the peak electrical power demand hours are not in the evening but during the day.”

When some charging stations take 10-12 hours to fully charge your EV, how can that happen if your “smart” charger limits the charging hours?

go here:

You’ll find out that especially in the winter, peak electricity usage is in the evenings.

I know this has been pointed out to you before. Are you incapable of learning?

June 23, 2022 3:44 pm

Understanding the bleeding obvious is quite beyond the capacities of almost all the current Australian politicians. They are particularly lacking in knowledge of Climate History, atmospheric physics, power generation, power distribution, and the basic knowledge of how batteries work.

June 23, 2022 4:33 pm

Somebody has calculated the additional Australian EV power requirement by taking the total fuel amount sold in Australia over one year and converting that figure to energy. Comes out as a 60% increase in Australia’s current energy requirements.

Reply to  Graeme#4
June 24, 2022 6:46 pm

The only problem with such a calculation is that it assumes that the electric grid is 100% efficient at getting power from the source to the electric motor. The reality is that at best only half of the power will make it all the way to the motors. As a result that 60% increase becomes more like a 120% increase.

June 23, 2022 7:03 pm

EVs are the solution to a problem no-one had.

June 23, 2022 11:50 pm

‘With the threat of blackouts a reality amid higher prices and demand, Origin’s general manager of e-mobility Chau Le said the network would struggle once EVs became more popular.’

Well thank you Captain Obvious. ICE looking smarter by the day.

June 24, 2022 4:39 am

Unlikely to become a problem as its unlikely EV’s will become popular.

Reply to  ThinkingScientist
June 24, 2022 6:43 pm

it doesn’t matter if they are popular or not, if government mandates their use.

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