Hydrogen! It’s the obvious and perfect answer to global warming caused by human CO2 emissions. Instead of burning hydrocarbons (fossil fuels) we can leave out the carbon part, burn just the hydrogen, and emit nothing but pure water vapor. H2 + O = H2O! Thus, no more CO2 emissions . Why didn’t anyone think of this before now?
Actually, the geniuses are way ahead of you on this one. President George W. Bush was touting the coming “hydrogen economy” as far back as 2003. (“In his 2003 State of the Union Address, President Bush launched his Hydrogen Fuel Initiative. The goal of this initiative is to work in partnership with the private sector to accelerate the research and development required for a hydrogen economy.”). Barack Obama was not one to get left behind on an issue like this. In the run-up to the Paris Climate Conference in 2015 Obama’s Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz announced, “[F]uel cell technologies [i.e., hydrogen-fueled motors] are paving the way to competitiveness in the global clean energy market and to new jobs and business creation across the country.” Then there’s the biggest hydrogen enthusiast of all, PM Boris Johnson of the UK, who promises that his country is at the dawn of the “hydrogen economy.” (“Towards the end of 2020, Prime Minister Boris Johnson released details of a 10-point plan for a so-called ‘green industrial revolution.’. . . This year will also see the government publish a Hydrogen Strategy that will “outline plans” to develop a hydrogen economy in the U.K.”)
And let us not forget California. If you look at my post from two days ago about California’s plans for “zero carbon” electricity, you will find a chart showing that by 2045 they plan to have some 40 GW of what they call “Zero Carbon Firm” resources. What does that mean? In the print below the chart, they reveal it: “hydrogen fuel cells.” (Their current amount of hydrogen fuel cells contributing to the grid is 0.)
So basically, hydrogen is the perfect answer to our problems, right? Wrong. Only an idiot could think that hydrogen offers any material useful contribution to the world’s energy supply.
For much of the information that follows, I’ll be relying on a June 6, 2020 Report written for the Global Warming Policy Foundation by John Constable. However, and not to downplay Mr. Constable’s excellent Report in any way, but I made many of the same points in one of the very first posts on this blog in November 2012, titled “The Hydrogen Economy.” That post was based mostly on my layman’s understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Really, that’s all you need to know to realize that hydrogen as a major source of energy for the economy doesn’t make any sense at all.
So what is the fundamental flaw in the idea of a hydrogen-based energy economy? Constable puts it this way: “Being highly reactive, elemental hydrogen, H2, is found in only small quantities in nature on the earth’s surface but is present in a very wide range of compounds.” In other words, the hydrogen is not free for the taking, but rather is already combined with something else; and to separate the hydrogen so that you have free hydrogen to use, you need to add energy. Once you have added the energy and you have the free hydrogen, you can burn it. But that’s where the Second Law of Thermodynamics comes in. Due to inevitable inefficiencies in the processes, when you burn the hydrogen, you get back less energy than you expended to free it up. No matter how you approach the problem, the process of freeing up hydrogen and then burning it costs more energy than it generates.
Do you think somebody in our political leadership or bureaucracies might understand this? Don’t count on it.
Constable then goes into much more detail, and the deeper he gets into it the more ridiculous the hydrogen project looks. Since essentially all of the hydrogen starts out combined with something, where might you look to find a source of large quantities of hydrogen? Constable: “[T]he sources are few in number, being limited to either water, fossil hydrocarbons or biomass.”
The bond of hydrogen and oxygen in water is a high-energy thing that therefore takes a lot of energy to undo. So let’s consider getting the hydrogen from natural gas. Indeed, that is the main source today of substantial quantities of pure hydrogen for industrial purposes. Constable describes a well-established process called “steam methane reformation” (SMR) by which steam is passed through natural gas (methane, or CH4). The bond is broken and the hydrogen breaks free. Voila! Oh, but what happens to the carbon? Why obviously, it is released also, and thereupon combines with oxygen from the air forming CO2.
Wait a minute! The whole idea behind undertaking this expensive process was to avoid the release of the CO2. So clearly, we need another step. In the British proposal to create the “hydrogen economy,” they have had to include the addition of processes for “carbon capture and storage” to capture the CO2 before it gets away and prevent it getting into the atmosphere. Except that they haven’t figured out how to capture it all. They are hoping for capture rates of maybe 85 – 90%. So it turns out that this process, for all its additional costs, is not emissions-free at all.
And then there’s the next obvious question: Why not just burn the natural gas? Instead of having to input energy in the “steam reformation” process, this way you will release a large amount of useable and useful energy when the carbon gets burned. And as to CO2, you get the exact same amount. If you have a fetish that the CO2 must be captured, you can try to capture it from this process instead of from the “steam reformation” process. Again, you will not get 100%, but it’s really no different.
Except for the optics. In the first scenario, you claim you are burning “clean, pure hydrogen.” In the second scenario, you are burning natural gas, just as we have been doing for decades. Can people really be fooled by this?
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Isn’t water vapor a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2?
But it’s already loose in the environment, unless you’re using fossil water.
Your gasoline powered car already emits a lot of water vapour:
C6H14 (octane) + 9½O2 → 6CO2 + 7H2O
1 mole of octane = 86 grams = 123 mL, 7 moles of H2O = 126 grams = 126 mL
For every gallon of gasoline your car burns (assuming it’s pure octane, which is an approximation) it emits 1.02 gallons of water (mostly as water vapour, but you can often see water dripping from tailpipes after a cold start on a cold day)
Because water vapour is present in the atmosphere at levels measured in tens of thousands of ppm, human contribution doesn’t make a significant difference, although all those jet aircraft leaving water vapour in the stratosphere – who knows?
The technical problems with hydrogen are basically engineering problems. How to make electrolysis of water work on an industrial scale, how to store it without leaking because the molecules are so tiny and many metals are somewhat porous to H2, and how to compress it to the extreme pressures needed to store a usable amount of energy for a car and avoid the hazard of explosion. Those are the obvious ones; no doubt there are others.
Essentially correct, but, umm, that’s not octane.
Not trying to be a jerk. It’s all meant in good fun.
You hexed him.
63% of human body atoms is hydrogen, but only 10% of its weight, about one and half tankful of a hydrogen powered Toyota car.
Would you happen to be suggesting that we liberate hydrogen from people?
Would this be the new soylent fleet of vehicles?
That too was a green economy as I recall.
Which now reminds me of a vehicle I saw on the highway one time.
It was a green VW Bug. License plate read SOYLNT
Soylent green was set in 2022…..
ONLY ONE MORE YEAR!
(AOC had it wrong!)
Don’t give them any more ideas Vuk, they are mad enough as it is.
The idea of Soylent Green fuel will not have escaped them.
You guys are so old school! They’re going to use people as batteries!
All Hail the Matrix!
Yep, already happened,thousands Aussies sit in 12 hour shifts on fixed exercise bikes fitted with dynamos charging the ElonMusk’s giant South Australia’s battery complex.
Musk exudes exuberance when he talks about his pet project “We are proud to be part of South Australia’s renewable energy future, and hope this project provides a model for future deployments around the world.”
I read the other day that Air Products is going to replace its delivery trucks with ones that use hydrogen fuel cells.
I’d like to have a working diesel fuel cell powered vehicle.
In Europe during WW2 when petrol(gasoline) was rationed people resorted to gasbag vehicles.
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/11/gas-bag-vehicles.html
You mean that we aren’t “carbon based” life forms?
Star Trek got it wrong? 😎
This energy density chart in MJ/kg and MJ/L says it all. H2 has great energy per mass, but terrible per volume, even compressed, relative to hydrocarbons. But worse yet is Li ion batteries which are dead last in both categories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg
Are you proposing an alternative to Soylent Green? TIC
You must mean water gas, not water vapor. Vapor is not a gas in the same way that CO2 is.
Why not?
Yes; water vapor can be treated as an ideal gas just as can CO2…
Vapor is not a well defined term scientifically. For many people vapor is akin to steam.
Water vapor, water vapour or aqueous vapor is the gaseous phase of water. As a gas it is just like CO2. In fact it is the dominant greenhouse gas, making CO2 something of an also ran … a nobody in the GHG sweepstakes.
Hello Fred. It is impossible to demonize water, because so many people use it on a daily basis. I myself drink it every day, as it is an essential component of whisky. We can’t even demonize carbon dioxide, because animals expel it with every breath. If you breath, you are a source of climate-destroying carbon dioxide. Could you please breath less? No? Do you want to destroy life on Earth? That argument ain’t going to work.
However we can demonize carbon. I hate the stuff. I used to use pencils, before I found out that the graphite in them was 100 percent carbon. What was I thinking? And don’t get me started on diamonds.
It is time to abolish the element whose atomic number is 6. The number of the Beast is 6. Is this a coincidence? I don’t think so.
I think I’ll have some more whisky, which has always helped me think.
It would seem that the whisky actually helps to make you BRILLIANT!
But isn’t “you put more energy in than you get out” true of just about any battery? I agree hydrogen makes no sense for a fixed site grid power generation fuel. But how about as a way to store energy for transportation? How does the energy density and full lifecycle cost of hydrogen as a transport fuel compare to lithium battery cells? Presumably the cost of generating the electricity to “recharge” either a lithium battery or a hydrogen tank would be the same. They both emit no carbon while being discharged for transport. Does hydrogen have an advantage over lithium because of the much lower time required to recharge? Or is that advantage outweighed by other disadvantages?
Hydrogen is not the easiest gas to store and transport. It will need to stored under high pressure in a tank that is constructed out of materials with low hydrogen permeability. I shudder to thick what would happen if a high pressure hydrogen tank was ruptured in an accident.
Hydrogen embrittlement of steels is a well known issue. When hydrogen burns, the flame is very difficult to see.
With the ruptured and ignited hydrogen tank, the effect would be immediate. Compared to lithium batteries which can burn for hours.
The difference between a flame and an explosion.
Besides, the hydrogen escapes upward, away from the source and rapidly dissipates much of it won’t even burn.
Jim, you’re talking about a tiny leak.
Fill a balloon with hydrogen gas then supply a spark.
What happens?
Fill a tank with liquid hydrogen, rupture it and supply a spark.
What happens?
hindenberg… oh the humanity…
For a good example of large quantities of hydrogen burning, look no further than the Hindenburg disaster.
Most people of the Hindenburgh desaster died from the fall,not from the cold flames.Any balloon filled with natural gas would have shown more pyro show
.Hindenburgh was and is primarily used to show the symbolic failure of the Nazs.
A more important question would be.
If 90 years ago nazis were able to store hydrogen in tanks and develop balloon skins that were hydrogenproof to cross the Atlantic,why is it a problem nowadays to store it.
As it is better to store energy the inefficient way than to not store it at all.
I merely remarked that the Hindenburg was a good example “of large quantities of hydrogen burning”. Can you think of a better example?
You sure do make a lot of assumptions from a simple fact. BTW, it was probably the Nazis’ coatings that burned the hottest, most probably thermite combined with some sort of lacquer … in other words a form of rocket fuel. Oh … and they weren’t all that “hydrogenproof” either. They leaked like sieves.
Read the comments and you’ll learn why it’s hard to store hydrogen.
They actually used the stomachs of thousands of cows to make the “bladders” to store the gas.
But WHY do you NEED a way to store this energy?
Because you have set a goal of using unreliable, non-dispatchable energy sources.
A solution to a non-problem, i.e., a waste of time and energy and money, but the money part does go to the chosen, doesn’t it?
Two problems off the top of my head:
Hydrogen is an incredibly volumetrically inefficient propellant, and how is it going to be stored?
But, then, I a an engineer and not trying to save the world.
ummm.
Hydrogen is merely j(G)ust another Energy Storage System.
(GUESS!)
Problem is,- just like Lithium batteries it takes loads of energy to get the infrastructure for storage in the form that is useable.
Ie. Lithium, mining and carting the stuff around the world then charging it up with energy.
Hydrogen, seperating the gas, then pumping it up to 1000s of bar pressure. (No doubt cools down the cylinder nicely as it expands).
There is no way any of those energy intensive processes could ever be offset by producing less CO2 from the manufacturing/storage inducing processes, which usually take place in CONCRETE structures, made specially for the purpose. (more CO2 involved there!)
My experiences with Hydrogen bubble chambers involved frangible walls, so that an explosion caused by anything over 4% H>air would explode the walls of a building without killing people with over-pressure.
Dunno if they plan to use the same strategies in 21st century, but most experimental proton bubble chamber halls weren’t particularly warm and required big powerful magnets.
I wouldn’t want hydrogen anywhere near something I drive, and I’m not so enthusiastic about highly reactive metals like Lithium, Cobalt etc either.!
In terms of storage, H2 is a poor performer. Coal, oil, wood, peat, CH4 are much better and safer.
U forgot Uranium and kinetic energy of water with a place to fall to.
Why not add some carbon atoms to make H2 a much safer and more efficient fuel? We could call it gas…
Yes, it is. Highly corrosive for metals. Containers and pipes should be carefully surveyed and replaced very often.
Yes, of course.
The last sentence says, “Can people really be fooled by this?”
Does a wild bear sh!t in the woods?
“Can people really be fooled by this?”
Sadly, yes
Two weeks to flatten the curve.
Who remembers the Hindenburg?
I certainly don’t. I wasn’t even born yet.
Well, I wasn’t born yet either, but my father was, living in Philadelphia, and the whole family piled into the Ford and drove down to nearby Lakehurst, New Jersey to watch the disaster. Video of the explosion and fire has been shown many times. Here is just one of the many videos on YouTube,the archived footage.
Very few were killed by the hydrogen fire itself which burned away from the ship. The impact of the landing, flying debris, and diesel fuel ignited by the hydrogen caused most of the death and injury.
Afterwards, dirigibles were filled with helium but their size and rigid structures caused problems due to wind sheer.
Wasn’t the reason Hydrogen was used was because Germany was unable to get a steady supply of helium because of the war? At least that is what I was told many years ago. Helium was the preferred gas for inflation because it was not prone to burning. Even if the hydrogen didn’t incinerate the passengers and crew, impact with the ground did a dandy job of extinguishing life.
I am sitting back and watching all this talk of green hydrogen being the future of our energy needs and waiting for the tragedies to start rolling in.
The commercial Zeppelin fleet was built between the wars.
The reason that hydrogen was used is that it is easily generated from abundant methane and water using the steam process described in the article. Helium is a much more expensive process, although the major feed stock is also natural gas, from which it is extracted cryogenically, after everything that could solidify during the process (water and carbon dioxide) is removed.
For commercial extraction, the natural gas must also be relatively rich in helium – which is true of only a few sources, none of them in Germany at the time. The helium is created when radioactive elements decay in the crust, emitting alpha particles (the nucleus of helium), so the natural gas well has to be where there are also relatively rich uranium or thorium deposits.
So, that story about the Allies not selling Helium to Germany was just anti-Allies propaganda? Very interesting.
Whoa!
In your defense of using H2 today, are you serious trying to suggest that The Hindenburg would not have been if a disaster if there where no fossil fuels aboard?
My understanding is also that the reflective and anti-static paint was made using aluminium and iron oxide, which is effectively solid rocket fuel (or thermite)
I spent some time working in Lakehurst at the Naval Air Station as an SME contractor. I was more than a little shocked that to that point and I assume to this day, the memorial to the Hindenberg there is only a tall painted stick/weathervane. They kept me so busy I never even had time to get my picture taken with it.
I seem to recall someone screaming ‘Oh, the humanity”. Don’t recall the source.
The landing was being broadcast live on radio. The announcer who made the statement was Herbert Morrison.
It seems these days people can be fooled by almost anything
Sheesh, just send it to Congress and have them change the law.
It’s all irrelevant anyways. Cold fusion is just 10 years away.
Prove it….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
Proven.😉
OK. I might be overly optimistic on the 10 year thing.
Oh, and here I thought you had just not bothered with the /sarc tag.
Hank, is that you?
.. and has been 10 years away for the past 50. Will probably stay 10 years away for the next 50 as well.
Check out a man called Rossi,He is launching the most energy efficient light ( 4 watts input 100 watts output Can be powered of a 12 volt supply)on November 25th. Also he will be announcing An electricity producing module.
You can per-order a lamp at $25 each, have look might find it interesting.
Ummm . . . where can I order 100 million of these? I will have just become a bazillionaire and solved the world’s energy crisis in one fell swoop.
Try certification of the E-cat SKled.
I bought 5.
“A fool and his money are soon parted.” — Thomas Tusser, 1557
I’ll believe it when he builds a plant to manufacture these things. Or if he turns a handful over to independent testers for a full and complete validation of his claims.
Something tells me twobob isn’t playing with a full deck. It was something about his writing style that tipped me off.
Nope! I have the full two shilling.
So you are another, believing in tipping points.
Having questing mind,does not inhibit my delving.
LOL … so I was right. You are utterly illiterate.
Yep … you’re completely out to lunch. I suggest you learn basic English before you decide to comment any further.
I see that irony is wasted on your self.
You must be from american roots.
You see nothing … and no, I’m not American.
Don’t bother with Congress. Just have JRB sign an executive order to change it!.
It well understood that a robust law has been established by modern climatology that the 10 year rule is unequivocal. All catastrophes and all scientific advances are just 10 years away.
The Cal energy idiots foresee using solar PV farms exclusively to use electrolysis to make the hydrogen to use in fuel cells. Of course would only run for about 6 hours/day in the winter. You have to make lots of hydrogen to get through long winter nights.
The problem is standard hydrolysis methods are quite inefficient with a lot of waste heat generated in passing a current though water. And the scale they would need hydrogen is far from realistic in terms of storage.
The largest cryogenic H2 (LH2) storage tank in the world is at Cape Kennedy space center. Extremely expensive due to the maintenance (seals) and special steels and insulations involved.
No one has solved this issue of where the hydrogen is to come at the scale envisioned by the Green idiots. Then there would be the serious issue of getting the hydrogen to generation plants to feed the grid. No one has that figured out either.
Bottom line is hydrogen power for grid scale electricity is going nowhere without copious amounts of natural gas consumption to make even partial hydrogen power possible.
Yes, people really under appreciate the technical difficulties.
I’ve been using laboratory sized electrolysis hydrogen generators for a long time and inevitably something causes an increase in resistance across the cells, they get hotter and this increases resistance and they eventually spiral out of control and fail.
The problem is that engineers still are unable to make inexpensive and robust cells. they can make robust cells but they are expensive. This problem exists at scale also.
The problem remains that hydrogen is a storage medium for the energy made from excess sun and wind generation, or it has no advantages or has disadvantages compared to the fossil fuels that it is otherwise made from. As a storage medium, batteries are easier for human beings to manufacture and maintain, not to mention safer. This situation can’t be overcome by foreseeable technology, so hydrogen will be a niche technology for situations where it can be generated and used nearby.
For example there are already many warehouse forklifts that use hydrogen fuel….advantages are that the forklifts are short range, indoor odors are nil, electric forklift batteries are a major capital cost, and electrolysis uses the same amount of electricity as recharging batteries…niche market…for you to drive to Yosemite, many supply problems….
Yes, it’s the typical government “one size fits all” approach to niche problems. If one needs to use hydrogen, such as for a flame ionization detector, then electrolysis might be a good option. In my experience, a cylinder of hydrogen is more reliable.
when I was mud logging we used Hydrogen FID dectectors. We started out with hydrogen generators but soon switched to 100lb Hydrogen bottles. Much more reliable and volume controllable..Typical bottle would last about 30 days before being needed to swapped out.
So, the obvious question is to ask, “Why not just use gas”? Asking for a friend.
Oh do keep up. They can’t use natural gas ‘cos it’s a, y’know, fossil fuel and has a public image problem!
Personally I’d just use natural gas and call it ‘hydrogen gas’ if anyone asked – I mean, it is gas and it has got hydrogen in it.
I don’t know why one would want to electrolyze water to produce low energy density (not to mention difficult to store and transport) hydrogen, when we could just as easily electrolyze molten salts, say, NaCl, to produce low volume and easily transported solid sodium and liquified chlorine gas. The latter could be readily dumped…er…recycled into freshwater lakes, rivers, streams and wetlands worldwide to provide safe drinking water for billions of people, while the sodium itself would readily react with water in power plants, work places, homes and vehicles to provide a (very) rapid source of energy whose only waste product can be dumped down drains…
/sarc
Electrolysis R&D is now the Search for the Magic Catalyst from what I have seen.
Oops. Hydrogen is usually combined. You have omitted any references to the newly confirmed cold fusion process.
In the last twelve months it has become apparent the cold fusion nut has been cracked. Even NASA has got a patent and apologised for previously putting it down.
There has been an enormous amount of work gone into discovering the process and uni’s world wide and their students have been passing test info and results around. It was like the early days of computing.
Cold fusion eventually came out to be simple when the keys were discovered. It requires hydrogen; form, not greatly significant. A metallic element which can act as catalyst. A small plasma AND an additional pumped oscillating voltage through it.
The process runs about 1000 deg C. or less and radiation is not a problem. Clean energy!
The argument about how the excess heat is produced may not be settled this century. The best seems to be that the hydrogen has its state changed by the presence of the voltage disturbing the plasma and its electron is shifted in the shell. A “hydrino” is the result and they have been shown to have their own spectral signature. They are also on offer freely to the world for investigation.
There are several contenders for commercial development. Andrea Rossi has been a long stayer and has a public demo organised for late November. He has very cleverly not only shown the process but is <em>harvesting electricity directly from the plasma.</em> Such a unit is only 20cm cubed with controls and has been demonstrated a year or so ago at a uni presentation with an output of 18.5 Kw. Power conditioning has been a problem bur Dr Rossi has recently announced he has achieved that using AI software and the whole process will be shown later this year. There is a lot to see on https://e-catworld.com
Another contender is https://brilliantlightpower.com
These are the hydrino people. They are showing a 250Kw boiler on their site and working on a 90%+ magnetohydrodynamic in-line conversion unit. They have several skilled engineers in their team and their plans for its use in driving ship, trains etc may well be realised.
This year may be a landmark one.
How deeply are you invested in these scams?
Mills and Rossi compete for the same marks and when they get money from them they say the mark has been landed. I guess some could invest is both.
In any case, every year is a landmark year.
I have none whatsoever. I have followed LENR for 10 years and watched it eventually come to fruition. The quantity of independent research reported on the net has been huge. Anyone with the right nous could pick up the way to do this at home and that’s what been happening. It probably led to the discovery of the pulsed electricity being required.
Mills and Rossi are far from being the only ones. NASA patented the process recently and apologised. Several others have recently announced their commercial intentions too. Expect more as the process can be gleaned from the net.
Must be the beginning of April – my that date rolls round quite fast these days.
April 1st is happening almost weekly today.
I blame it on climate change.
HB 41 was recently introduced officially changing every day to April 1.
I stand corrected! It explains a whole lot, that does …
The advantages over hydrogen that methane/natural gas/CH4 has are so obvious that it emphasises how ludicrous it is to even consider H2. The two gases share similar disadvantages in terms of lack of filling stations and low power density, but an average to large car has adequate space to fill up with several hundred miles worth.
LOX and particulate emissions are extremely low, a plus in crowded European cities.
There’s one huge advantage of advocating CH4 as the intermediate fuel of the future. It would actually let politicians off the hook – they can claim it’s halfway to the hydrogen economy and as such we can avoid crashing Western civilisation for thirty years.
JF
You seem to be anti-suicide. One can come to the conclusion that some, if not many, Western politicians want civilization to crash.
Yes. not many, but SOME!
That’s such a good paragraph. Hats off to you.
It’s dead Jim.
“You hold the Tricorder and I’ll get his wallet.”
Cant wait to hear the discussion with firefighters on the hydrogen powered fire engines going in to fight bushfires. No really it is safe, it could be worse you could be using Li powered vehicles.
Lol
If it doesn’t work Doris will throw billions at it
In today’s Times it seems the government is offering grants up to £7000 to replace gas boilers
Luckily my boiler is only 4 years old and I won’t be changing what works for something that doesn’t
That seems like a lot of money. Gas boilers are relatively inexpensive here in the U.S. for home heating and seem to last for many decades.
It’s nowhere near enough for a heat pump (>£10K) let alone converting space etc for a new hot water tank/ pumps etc Assuming one has the space available
It’s a bad joke
Heat pumps can be a nightmare, useless one doesn’t need heat.
Yep, otherwise they work just fine, for the manufacturers and installation crews!
Thanks for pointing that out, Scissor.
I’m U.S. too, and when I see the WUWT British contingent here discussing the high costs of replacing their boilers, electric systems, heat pumps and whatnot, the prices seem eyewatering to me too.
Not that it’s exactly cheap in the U.S., but it seems like costs here are half those in the U.K. Oh, I’ve noticed puzzled comments from the Oz brigade here that their prices are much lower, too.
The prices always come up in comments when it comes to the Brits changing out their boilers to anything else. I’ve never seen an explanation for the huge difference.
–
Closer to the topic, a forced change of energy supply is a waste and extra expense for everybody, but it seems the Brits get hit hardest. I have no clue why there’s such a difference; VAT maybe?
Can you guess why petrol is more expensive in the UK?
Two taxes: fuel duty and then VAT on top of that
We pay tax on tax
Since you’ve already paid income tax on that money, technically it’s a tax on a tax, on taxed money. VAT/GST/sales tax is already a tax on taxed money.
Not many things are cheap in the U.K., except maybe a pint of beer and talk.
Beer is far more expensive at roughly £6 a pint (568 mi)
1 litre petrol is around £1.35
Damn. I’d like to visit the U.K. again some day. Maybe not.
Well, my advice is start saving!
When I lived in the UK (mid ’60s) beer was 11 pence a pint and 11 P h’penny for best bitter. Talk about inflation … talk about years of bad government … poor buggers.
I got 5.9% beer for £1.69 a pint this week. The £6 pint does exist in London but these days London is not Britain.
In a pub or an off license?
If I say “Spoons” do you know what I mean?
It’s been 40 years since I lived in the UK. If I did know it’s left my mind now. Chemo wiped out rather a large %age of the past, LOL
You likely wouldn’t know then. It’s the slang name for a large pub chain. So it was in a pub not an off-licence. In fact it’s long time since I heard the term “off-licence”. These days the supermarkets are often open 24h and they sell loads of booze.
Right, I had completely forgotten that the UK decided to abandon its culture and suck up to Europe. The large pub chain was likely owned by Germans and staffed by French for American tourists and “refugees” from wherever..
And that was old pennies vs new pennies after decimalization.
240 old pennies to the Pound vs 100 new pennies
So converted to new pennies that 1960’s pint was a mere 4.5 new pennies.
I remember buying my first pint at the age of 16 for 11 pence. In those days the publican didn’t care if you were 18 or not.
As long as you didn’t make any problems that is.
The conversion cost the poor and the old terribly. Much of their lives was dealing in loose change, not notes. Everything suddenly cost much more.
When the government ‘mandates’ changes, it will ALWAYS cost more! Taxes are only a part of the problem. A truly free market will allow the MARKET to control the prices, not politicians! Another thing working there, is the concept of ‘gauge them for all you can get’! It works, too, apparently, in the UK! In the US a good ‘boiler’ (hot water heater) can be bought for under $500, plus installation. If you are able to screw a few pipes together, you can do it yourself, for free. I’ve done it MANY times, in different houses. Not so much anymore, since I’m now 82.
Are these actually gas boilers (IE, heat water to create steam) or is boiler a generic British term for what we in the US would call a furnace.
They are to run a hot water in radiators heating system. We don’t run them so hot as to raise steam.
The colour of the H₂ is obviously important.
So far:
Green
Blue
Pink
Turquoise
Grey
Brown
Black
the Global Warming Policy Foundation
a mysteriously funded propaganda organisation with no scientific credibility
Yes, you are.
Griff often signs off with a truth and sometimes even begins with a truth.
The Guardian – founded on the proceeds of slavery
And it bothers you not, griff
Why is that?
Are you attempting to describe the Democrat Party there griff? If so I agree with your overview….
The IPCC
a mysteriously funded propaganda organisation with no scientific credibility…
If you repeat a lie long enough, and LOUDLY enough, it will soon be accepted as the truth. Or something like that.
griff,
Academic Advisory Board of the GWPF-
Professor Christopher Essex (Chairman),
Sir Ian Byatt,
Dr.John Constable,
Professor Vincent Courtillot,
Professor Peter Dobson OBE,
Christian Gerondeau,
Professor Lawrence Gould,
Professor William Happer,
Professor Ole Humlum,
Professor Khalghatgi,
Professor Terence Kealey
William Kinninmonth,
Bryan Leyland,
Professor Richard Lindzen,
Professor Ross McKitrick,
Professor Robert Mendelsohn,
Professor Garth Paltridge,
Professor Ian Plimer,
Professor Gwythian,
Professor Paul Reiter,
Professor Peter Ridd,
Dr. Matt Ridley,
Sir Alan Rudge,
Professor Nir Shaviv,
Professor Hendrik Svensmark,
Dr.David Whitehouse.
Deceased Council Members:
Sir Samuel Brittan,
Viscount Camrose,
Professor Robert Carter,
Professor Freeman Dyson,(Founding Member of the GWPF),
Professor David Henderson,
Professor Tony Kelly,
Professor Depak Lal,
Professor Sir Alan Peacock,
Professor B.P. Radhakrishna.
Would you like to withdraw your fatuous claim of “no scientific credibility.”
Griff finds Mickey Mouse and Hogwarts Headmaster Albus Dumbledore far more believable scientists … they claimed a climate emergency so it must be true.
LdB,
That’s MIKEY Mouse if you don’t wish to added to the list of lawsuits! But you are correct; the griffter is in awe of Mickey Mouse’s academic credentials!
They don’t have degrees in climate science (as a matter of fact, there are no degrees in climate science).
Someone in their family may have once met someone who worked for an oil company, therefore they are hopelessly corrupted.
Their opinions don’t match the latest run of the sacred models, therefore they are proven wrong.
Unable to rebut the (self-evident) facts in this article, Griff characteristically attempts to defame the people who produced it.
That’s the old ad hominem argument. It has no credibility.
if you can’t refute the message , attack the messenger
You talk about IPCC ??? 😀
Once again when griff can’t refute the science, he attacks the messenger.
Is that your personal definition or did you copy it from some other idiot?
And Griff, what century would you prefer to live in given the deadly CO2 running amuck in our atmosphere today, according to you.
The 1700’s? Life expectancy 35?
The 1800’s? Life expectancy 45?
The 1900’s? Life expectancy 60?
The 2000’s? Life expectancy 70+?
Sounds like most British media, the IPCC and most of UK universities.
Best headline on a WUWT article for many, many years. Thanks!
The best information on Hydrogen I have seen is HARRYS GARAGE “Is hydrogen, rather than electric, the future for big-engined machinery? I visit JCB to find out”
That is an excellent video on youtube. A real company with practicality in mind. However the issue is the production of the hydrogen in the first place.
I would say “also” rather than instead.
A small quantity of hydrogen for special purposes may be worth the cost. But why not simply have a small, with an emphasis on small, pilot project doing research until they come up with cost effective and safe ways of producing and working with hydrogen before running ahead with very costly unicorn schemes?
The answer is: X% of a small number is small.
Various companies and organizations have been handling hydrogen for many years. It’s already a mature technology
True, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good, mature technology.
Odd… Using hydrogen to avoid releasing CO2″, because CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”; but burning hydrogen will release H2O vapour, which is a more powerful “greenhouse gas”…
Am I missing something?
Yes, you have that H2O in addition to the CO2 used to produce the H2.
No, it’s just that mankind’s emissions relative to natural CO2 emissions is on the order of 3-4%. Mankind’s emissions relative to natural H2O emissions would be essentially 0%.
You forgot that hydrogen is all around us. Like wind. And it is FREE!!! Just like wind.
Yes, adding H20 to the atmosphere will only increase the amount temporarily, as it will precipitate out in short order. Not the case for CO2
Well…
A quick statistics of the comments to my comment indicate that one half says yes, the other says no.
Science is settled, then! (hydrogen idiots will come and cancel the comments that do not fit the narrative)
“You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” — George W. Bush
Whoever told you that “greenies” neither listen to nor learn from Republicans was mistaken.
That quote comes from a gridiron speech, and was meant to be humerous.
Bush also stated that he was quoting Democrat Robert Straus when he gave that quote.
Now that’s just funny
Everyone is missing the real value of Hydrogen.. Hydrogen –> Helium is the ticket. There are gazillions of these factories across the universe (and one just 93 million miles away) that do this 24x7x365 (366 on leap years). Just duplicate the process here on Earth and we got it. Easy Peasy.
I detest this common error. It’s 24/7/52 or 53 if you really want, or 24/365 or 356
We seem to be going over too a unreliable electric system where we can not control the output. Cloudy/ high sunny days, windy/ windless days so there will be a lot of over capacity to stop blackouts.
The excess would be ideal for making Hydrogen?
From my school days (a lot of years ago) Water and electric makes hydrogen. both will abundant in the future.
See Harrys farm interview with JCB on their work on Hydrogen.
Brother, you can’t “fool” the willingly stupid, got to come up with a new word to describe the process. It is funny, for over 40 years people have been screeching that hydrogen fuel technology is here, and yet it is still not here. If it was so great and inexpensive it would be widely in use already. Oh well.
I seem to recall that hydrogen was the fuel of the future even when global cooling was in vogue.
It was supposed to power our flying cars! Or flying snowblowers. To each their own.
It’s the fuel of the future…and always will be.
That’s what I call insight.
It.should be noted though, that using solar energy (or even wind?) to separate hydrogen from water is a potentially viable route to reliable storage of that energy. I am not a huge proponent of either energy source, as the technologies currently exist, but if advances make either of them much more reasonable primary sources of energy a reliable means to store the energy is still required. Hydrogen *could* be that means on an industrial scale for grid management.
Batteries are safer, cheaper and more efficient.
You just may be on to something, there. Wind and/or solar are NOT reliable sources for running our grid on, but how about using them to generate the hydrogen, and then using THAT to charge up the backup batteries that are sorely needed? Less input to generate the fuel. I didn’t say the dirty F word, either, since NOTHING is ever ‘free’. If we could cut down on the amount of energy (expense) needed to generate the H2, wouldn’t that be a huge plus?
Sometimes it’s better to milk a cow just by squeezing its teats.
You are not allowed to do the math, or to use logic when it comes to climate.
How dare you!
Hydrogen is difficult to store because has very low volumetric energy density. It is the simplest and lightest element–it’s lighter than helium. Hydrogen is 3.2 times less energy dense than natural gas and 2700 times less energy dense than gasoline. Sounds like the perfect bomb to put in your vehicle.
Well, it could save the BBC some money.. they could recycle all the old stock footage of cooling towers that punctuate every “climate” story they cover, and use them to show that the “green” hydrogen powerplants are saving the planet…
No, they plan to burn unicorn farts, which are of course hydrogen. . .
Yes, but the SMELLL!
Everyone knows unicorn farts smell like rainbows.