Piles of Lithium rich salt, Salar de Uyuni, Bolivia. Luca Galuzzi (Lucag), edit by Trialsanderrors [CC BY-SA 2.5], via Wikimedia Commons

Where’s the Lithium? NYT Notices a Lot More Lithium Needed for Biden’s Electric Vehicle Push

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

h/t Neil; NYT has noticed an awful lot of toxic mineral extraction and wholesale open cut ecological destruction would be required, to satisfy President Biden’s clean electric vehicle vision.

The electric-vehicle race is creating a gold rush for lithium, raising environmental concerns.

May 7, 2021

The United States needs to quickly find new supplies of lithium as automakers ramp up manufacturing of electric vehicles.

Lithium is used in electric car batteries because it is lightweight, can store lots of energy and can be repeatedly recharged. Other ingredients like cobalt are needed to keep the battery stable.

But production of raw materials like lithium, cobalt and nickel that are essential to these technologies are often ruinous to land, water, wildlife and people, Ivan Penn and Eric Lipton report for The New York Times. Mining is one of the dirtiest businesses out there.

“Right now, if China decided to cut off the U.S. for a variety of reasons we’re in trouble,” said Ben Steinberg, an Obama administration official turned lobbyist. He was hired in January by ​Piedmont Lithium, which is working to build an open-pit mine in North Carolina and is one of several companies that have created a trade association for the industry.

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/business/the-electric-vehicle-race-is-creating-a-gold-rush-for-lithium-raising-environmental-concerns.html

NYT neglected to put a number on the Lithium shortage, but I’ve seen estimates that a 2000% increase in Lithium extraction rates would be required, along with a broad range of other toxic minerals such as Rare Earths (used in high efficiency electric motors). There would be no opportunity to be dainty about ramping up production on that scale – Once easily accessible Lithium brines were exhausted, Lithium miners would have to rip the countryside apart, digging up low grade Lithium containing minerals in vast open cut mines, creating enormous toxic waste dumps in their effort to feed the EV production market.

And none of this would be a one-off – the search and extract process would be ongoing.

Good thing the motive for this proposed wholesale planet wrecking is to save the environment, right?

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May 8, 2021 10:12 am

Like your mamma said – “No free lunch today” (or ever). Please keep this from the woke – don’t want to disturb their sleep.

Reply to  Terry
May 8, 2021 11:50 am

But this was in the NYT (so it must be true), which is the woke journal of record. Too late.

Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
May 8, 2021 2:03 pm

The NYT has uncovered what WUWT adherents pointed out 15 years ago…

Reply to  DMacKenzie
May 9, 2021 1:57 am

The NYT has “uncovered” what WUWT adherents pointed out 15 years ago…


Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
May 10, 2021 9:32 am


I think it is likely that the NYT (editor(s) and/or writer, but likely editors) have money in Lithium and would like to see other people come in after them to bump up the ‘value’ before they sell.

Reply to  Terry
May 8, 2021 12:52 pm

Lithium: The World’s Hottest Commodity


Last edited 1 year ago by vuk
Reply to  Vuk
May 8, 2021 4:21 pm

Lithium…smithium….there is NEW technology out there…solid state….million mile battery….it has been just around the corner for years…you will see…charge in 5 minutes…go 500 miles…it’s like a miracle…it will be ever ready

Reply to  Anti-griff
May 8, 2021 11:51 pm

it will be ever ready

I feel sorry for the bunnies

(in more than one way)

Robert W Turner
Reply to  Vuk
May 9, 2021 8:11 am

I’ve been accumulating shares of LTHM all week in anticipation of that lithium spot price to have another step up from it’s still moderately low $90,000/TN – I bet it happens this week.

I think we’re going to see at least one more melting up period in commodities before the whole market simply crashes. I have heard that the indicator to step out of the market completely is when lumber prices start to drop.

Reply to  Robert W Turner
May 11, 2021 9:03 am

September, out in August to be safe (… well, safer anyway).

Last edited 1 year ago by DonM
May 8, 2021 10:12 am

The really stupid part is that, while it is the lightest storage, it is the most expensive, and least necessary. No stationary system needs Lithium storage. Even lead acid batteries are more economical and useful in household or small industry situations, and the overheated ground directly underneath PV generation panels is hardly useful for much of any other productive activity.

Last edited 1 year ago by dk_
Reply to  dk_
May 8, 2021 6:15 pm

Lead/Acid has two significant disadvantages – Low cycle life and low turn-around efficiency.

Lead/Acid are rated at 0.1C discharge rate for a reason. Energy recovery drops dramatically if pulled harder than 0.1C. Charge efficiency is also well down compared with lithium.

On current prices, lithium technologies are better value than lead/acid. May not stay that way but that is how it is now.

So far none of the flow batteries has proven as reliable as lithium – still early days.

As yet there is no economic sense in using BEVs over hybrids. It would be far better to keep the lithium for use in hybrids rather than going all-in on full electric conversion.

Larry in Texas
Reply to  RickWill
May 8, 2021 8:05 pm

I own a hybrid (gas-electric combo, so I don’t have to plug it in), and I agree with you. I’ve been a big supporter of hybrids since 2010, when I bought my first one from Ford. It makes far better sense from an economic viewpoint.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Larry in Texas
May 9, 2021 3:57 am

The best thing about a hybrid (not a plug-in hybrid) is that the electrical grid does not have to be modified in order to use one. You don’t need a charging station using a hybrid, all you need is a gas station, of which we currently have plenty.

David A
Reply to  RickWill
May 8, 2021 10:24 pm

In general I agree, yet political pressure, and financial pressure creates economic realities. Many solar homes have 200 to 400 extra kilowatts generated monthly. ( They still get billed for 100 percent of any juice they pull from the grid, like night time use, etc…) The utilities only pay solar owners between 2 and 3 cents per KWH for any extra production.

If, instead of sending that extra production to the grid, the solar owner has an EV, and is able to send most of that extra production into the EV, they are in affect getting 35 to 65 cents per KWH verses 2 to 3 cents per KWH.
( Based on KWH converted to miles per KWH, verses the cost of gasoline converted to MPG). 300 KWH can be 700 to 1,200 miles of driving.

Last edited 1 year ago by David A
Reply to  David A
May 9, 2021 12:09 am

Except the said solar panels are carted round the world on boats from China, and their useful life is over within a decade,with no sign of a toxic recycling solution anywhere in sight.
It was this way with the asbestos industry which is now in full expansion in Asia and China, leaving them to clean up where we left off.
We are still in the “after struggling to cope with the excess lung cancer deaths” so we send the ships full of it to Bangladesh for kids to clean out.

They are only just beginning, as this new environmental disaster heads our way, as they have to remove the worn out wind farms and solar panels within the next 8-9yrs.

Already the rubbish recycling industry hate disgarded lithium batteries thrown in the bins, because it causes fires at their recycling plants..
..and you know what happens to a Tesla when it catches fire??

David A
Reply to  pigs_in_space
May 9, 2021 6:09 am

Numerous large companies like LG, make panels guaranteed to be 93 percent effective after 25 years.
Solar panels are a small fraction of their business, and they will likely be around in 25 years.

BTW, I am 100 percent against all federal subsidies for wind and solar, and I think CO2 is immensely beneficial.

Mark J Boyles
Reply to  David A
May 12, 2021 11:08 am

None of the solar panels currently manufactured have demonstrated working life like that.

They also lose efficiency over time so you should consider that.

Then don’t forget they are fragile and one hail storm is the end.

I looked at them, ran the numbers, and realized they only make sense if you are living where you MUST be off the grid.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  David A
May 9, 2021 5:06 am

So now I have to leave my EV at home during the day to charge it? Or am I just using it as a mobile battery?

David A
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
May 9, 2021 6:05 am

Nope, it primarily works for retired people, or work at home people.

I am retired, and twice a week drive about a 120 mile round trip. And two to three 15 mile trips a week.

So in my case, no issue.

Reply to  RickWill
May 8, 2021 11:21 pm

Most of the internet servers we’re talking through use lead acid batteries as backup power, at a tenth the cost of lithium (i’m probably favoring lithium a little too much, there) for the same capacity. And lead acid are recyclable, even though most places have made a hash of it.
And the lead anode can be replaced with carbon felt/charcoal mat, for a 20% weight improvement and preventing sulfide deposits, which is a service life killer in un-sealed batteries. It still leaves you the lead oxide cathode, but half the overall lead content.
And Lead Acid technology is used in large stationary and shipboard applications, submarines, (and missile silos). in large, heavy, and often stationary applications, or where they make really good ballast.
And Lead Acid AGM sealed batteries are, I believe, lighter and more efficient than your figures suggest for unsealed batteries.
And Lithium burns well when punctured or charged/discharged too quickly, beyond common fire suppression capabilities. Combined with super-light carbon fiber and normal tires, one lithium battery electric car fire erases the rest of its carbon-free label. Fire proof containers eliminate a good part of the weight savings, and are already required in some circumstances. And in the U.S., automobile lithium is partly subsidized by U.S. and state tax money and provided below cost by our friends in the CCP — if you think OPEC was bad, just wait (around 5 years) until you are depending on President Pooh’s generosity for more batteries. And Lithium batteries in cars can’t be replaced economically, wearing out long before the rest of the vehicle (my fellow commenter probably hasn’t had to junk a hybrid, yet, because the “replace battery” light prevented it from being registered, I’ve seen it a lot). And Lithium batteries can’t be recycled at all (yet, although some have been working on it, just send back to China).
But weight density/efficiency is only an issue if you are trying to move a car with it. On the ground, stationary, you can build and maintain around 20 facilities that use lead for the cost of one that uses lithium.
Now, if you’d said NiMH, I might have been a little less stubborn. A lot of my objections to Li do not apply to NiMH.
I was talking about stationary applications.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  RickWill
May 9, 2021 3:54 am

One can build a pretty good short-range vehicle using lead-acid batteries. I was thinking about doing one at one time using a pickup truck.

One of my uncles built himself an electric car back in the 1950’s, using lead-acid batteries.

David A
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 6:11 am

Tom, I understand the number of cycles before significant degrading of capacity is greatly reduced.

Joseph Zorzin
May 8, 2021 10:19 am

““Right now, if China decided to cut off the U.S. for a variety of reasons we’re in trouble,” said Ben Steinberg, an Obama administration official turned lobbyist.”

Who’s in trouble? The clean and green industry? And why should we care?

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
May 8, 2021 10:29 am

We means Bloomberg, Steyer, all of the NYT investors, politicians who need donors or have “blind” stock options, politicians whose tantrums depend on both tame and oppressor industries,…

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
May 10, 2021 12:39 am

China produces 60% of the worlds lithium, 90% of the world’s rare earths…not just used for Evs but for all sorts of high tech fancy gizmos, including a lot used by the military. Oddly enough the US exports rare earths to China where they are refined and re-exported [imported?] to the US as high tech magnets. Why ? The US has no rare earth refineries.

Recall Donald Trump’s offer to buy Greenland ? Greenland has several large, unexploited rare earth deposits. And not as ridiculous as it seems. After all the US purchased Louisiana and Alaska and invaded/purchased California [Nevada, Utah, Arizona and bits of Colorado and New Mexico] for $15,000,000 so not an offer without precedent.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  GregK
May 10, 2021 3:37 am

Maybe we should just stop buying that stuff from China- and have a crash program to find them elsewhere- BEFORE any possible war with China, not after. The sooner we get off that addiction the better. One way would be to put very stiff tarrifs on rare earths so companies would move in that direction quickly. It’s absurd that we allow such leverage over us this way.

May 8, 2021 10:28 am

At one point we needed a new Earth just to test our models. Now we need a new one just to get the materials required to go woke.

Reply to  Pauleta
May 8, 2021 10:54 am

It will be another version of OIL WARS 2.0, but this time with full eco, environmental, progressive support to “save the planet”. It is going to quite entertaining to watch CNN and Rachel Maddow twist logic into a pretzel to justify what is coming. Time to get the popcorn! (sigh)

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 6:18 pm

CNN and mad cow will not cover this. Not covering anything that would cause the Democrats problems is their MO.

May 8, 2021 10:39 am

The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) says it requires more energy to produce a lithium battery than it can ever provide. When it has discharged you would not normally use another battery to recharge. Hybrids take care of that. Or recharge with energy produced by a natural gas burning power plant.

Reply to  Fred Haynie
May 8, 2021 10:57 am

The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing.

Reply to  ddp
May 8, 2021 7:11 pm

says no such thing.
Correct. The First Law of Batteries is the reason.

Li battery costs are about $150 kWh. Electricity/gas about $0.10 kWh retail.

15000/10 = 1500 recharge cycles to pay for battery.

David A
Reply to  Ferdberple
May 8, 2021 11:02 pm

Fred I think it is area dependent and certainly government regulation dependent.

So a 90 KWH battery cost 13k.
1500 X 90 is 135,000 KWH over the life of the battery.
3 miles per KWH is reasonable.
Some EVs claim 4.1 miles per KWH.
( Some EV companies greatly exaggerate their normal efficiency)
2.8 miles per KWH is not unreasonable.

135,000 KWH X 2.8 is 378,000 miles. Let’s take 100,000 miles off of the claimed 1500 life cycles. So, 278,000 miles divided by 26 MPG required 10,692 gallons of fuel. ( Some Fleet operators are claiming these numbers under proper care.)

Where you live is important for the next part.
In California that 10,692 gallons will cost you, at today’s price, about four dollars per gallon, $42,770.00. The 100,000 KWH needed to go 278,000 miles cost $17,000.00 ( 17 cents per KWH) plus $13,000 for the battery, so a total of $30,000 dollars verses $42,770.00 for the ICE fuel. The EV car gets kicked back about $9,000.00 in California.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  David A
May 9, 2021 4:39 am

As has been pointed out many times, a straight comparison at the moment is heavily weighted in favour of an EV. A situation which can’t last much longer, Boris needs every penny he can get his hands on not just for a nanny or two and redecoration, to pay for lockdowns.

UK petrol and diesel is heavily taxed. About 80p per litre which is $4.25 per US $.
My little European car does 42mpg, or 35mp(US)g. So in actual fuel costs your 278,000 miles costs $33,750 in tax. So Boris is going to have to create a mileage charge of 12 cents per mile. Which in UK terms is about 8.5p per mile. Electricity is about 13.26p per kWH or 18.6 cents. I’ll take 4 miles per kWH
So your 278,000 miles is £12,800 for electricity and £23,600 mileage charge. £36,400 or $50,000 compare to 6000 UK Gallons at £1.25 per litre (I hate the UK mix of Imperial and metric, when cycling I work in Metric but speed limits are in mph for driving and fuel is metric) so £34,125 fuel and tax or $47,800.

No real incentive to change to an EV in future unless Boris decides to raise cost of electricity = political suicide, raise VAT already 20% = taking careful aim and shooting yourself in the foot, raising Income Tax = Labour put that in their manifesto known as the longest suicide note in history.

The public are in line for huge costs to insulate uninsulatable homes, warming by heat pump or hydrogen neither of which will be cheap.

When the sh*t really hits the fan in 2030 I’ll either be dead or too old to drive, and freezing to death will be the soft option.

michael hart
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
May 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Yes, Ben. You’re asking the questions and doing the calculations which no UK politician has yet demonstrated themselves capable of in public.

I suspect that, in reality, it’s all part of the program to do away with (reform)n personal transport as we know it today. In London it’s already a reality because of congestion and car-parking expenses.
I can only see it expanding elsewhere. A population which is unable to freely travel at will (apart from the wealthy) is also, conveniently, a population that is more easily controlled.
I’m not actually alleging a conspiracy, just that that looks like how things may develop.

Reply to  Fred Haynie
May 8, 2021 11:25 am

1) batteries don’t provide energy. Never have, never will.
2) Using that logic, I think you just proved that it will always take more energy to drill for oil, than an oil field could ever provide.

Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 11:52 am

They store a manifestation, inefficiently. The karmic irony is that so-called “energy-efficient” vehicles gain ground with simplified mechanical design and shared/shifted/obfuscated climate change and environmental hazards.

Tom in Toronto
Reply to  Fred Haynie
May 8, 2021 12:32 pm

A couple of fundamental misunderstandings, Fred:
1) A battery merely stores and discharges energy; it doesn’t produce any (nor is it designed to)
2) Even if batteries (or Lithium) produced energy, the energy to extract/mine it does not ‘create’ or ‘store’ this energy, so the 2nd law of thermodynamics is irrelevant. We are not transferring the mining/extracting energy into battery power.

The only point where the 2nd law applies is that the energy required to charge a battery (not mine or create the battery) will always be less than or equal to the energy it provides upon discharge.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tom in Toronto
Bill Rocks
Reply to  Tom in Toronto
May 8, 2021 12:42 pm

Tom in T

I think you meant to write that the energy required to charge a battery will always be greater than the energy it provides upon discharge.

Tom in Toronto
Reply to  Bill Rocks
May 8, 2021 1:00 pm

yeah, ‘greater’ not ‘less’ in the last sentence, obviously.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom in Toronto
May 8, 2021 3:12 pm

MORE than or equal

May 8, 2021 10:40 am

Yep… and that is going to have political implications in South America’s Lithium Triangle very shortly.

The Green Energy transition, in addition to instigating a wholesale degradation of the Earth’s environment to “save the planet” is also likely to usher in a new era of OIL WARS 2.0:

Once you move beyond the progressive pablum of the United States media, about the Myanmar being a “struggle for democracy”, rare earth minerals take center stage:

10 Top Countries for Rare Earth Metal Production

Myanmar is #3


Pre-coup, democratic government:

Myanmar banned rare earth exports to China

Myanmar has closed the border to China to suspend rare earth ore exports to the top rare earth processor, in view of the environmental damage and conflicts caused by Chinese miners’ unregulated operations, SMM learned.


Post-coup, military government:

Illegal rare-earth mining surges in Myanmar

They say mining has increased by at least five times in Pangwa and Chipwi townships amid the political turmoil, with a rapid influx of Chinese workers.

“Under the civilian government, if we complained about illegal rare earth mining, officials immediately visited and investigated. [Illegal miners] stayed away but now it is totally out of control.”


And given that the United States recently declared rare earth elements a vital strategic national defense commodity:

Pentagon legislation aims to end dependence on China for rare earth minerals


Everything claimed in the United States media must be thoroughly re-examined. The military junta that ousted the democratically elected government of Myanmar, claimed “election fraud” as the reason. However, given all of the above, how deeply is/was the United States Intelligence Community involved in Myanmar?

Wakey, wakey… (sigh)

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
John Tillman
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 10:56 am
Reply to  John Tillman
May 8, 2021 11:24 am

Yeah, Chile is going to be a the center of a lot of this in the future. IMHO It has huge copper reserves as well, in addition to the lithium as you point out, and both are projected to BOOM in the next decade.

However, Chile is currently going through a huge period of political instability right now, as violent protests from last year resulted in a national plebiscite to rewrite the nation’s constitution, which was written during the Pinochet Era and heavily favored the extraction industry and was very financially conservative (no deficit spending).

The predictions are that the new constitution will heavily favor the Left, however, given the emerging global “metal bonanza” it won’t be just well meaning progressive citizens at the table trying to rewrite a constitution.

Keep an eye on it to see what happens.

Ron Long
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 11:53 am

Anon, you are correct about politics in Chile and the copper boom, the price of copper has risen to U$D 4.50 per pound. John Tillman is right about the lithium in the “Lithium Triangle”, but it wouldn’t bother me one bit if they mined these salars (dry lake bed) as they are stinking messes. Try driving across one on a hot day, like, gag me with a spoon!

John Tillman
Reply to  Ron Long
May 8, 2021 12:11 pm

Far better the stinking salars than open pit mines, for sure.

Chile depends heavily on copper, with 23% of world reserves, followed by Australia and Peru, with 10% each, then Russia (7%), Mexico (6.1%) and the US (5.9%).

The new constitution is liable to be socialist, but as an expat in Chile, I’m betting on its preserving private property, so as not to k!ll the goose which has laid golden eggs for the only officially First World country in Latin America, ie member of the OECD. Lots of young people here are Communists, so I might be overly optimistic.

Ron Long
Reply to  John Tillman
May 8, 2021 3:26 pm

John, I drilled the Mocha. east of Iquique, porphyry copper discovery in 1981. Copper everywhere. I love to go to Renaca or Viña del Mar for summer vacations, but we’ll see.

John Tillman
Reply to  Ron Long
May 8, 2021 3:37 pm

The borders are closed until at least the end of this month. The renewed state of emergency ends on June 30. With winter, I fear that it might be extended again. As you say, we’ll see.

Too bad we weren’t acquainted when Denisse and I lived in Concon. Suburban Villa Alemana just can’t compare.

My Iquique story is when a buddy and I landed there from Bolivia. There was a fly on the plane, so we weren’t allowed to disembark until women with bug spray cans had thoroughly attacked all of us. No Bolivian insects allowed in Chile.

Chile acquired its Far North from Bolivia and Peru in the 1879 Pacific (!) War. Then the resource was guano but now copper and lithium. Bolivia still has a few salars with lithium, but nothing like Chile’s.

As you may have noticed, norteños still speak a more Peruvian sort of Spanish rather than Chilean, ie con yeismo.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Tillman
Jay Willis
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 11:10 am

Thanks for that post anon. An eye-opener.

michael hart
Reply to  Jay Willis
May 11, 2021 4:55 pm

Yes, thanks to anon/Ron/John for these posts. Very educative.

Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 11:28 am

Do you have any evidence that the US was involved in the coup in Myanmar. Or are you just one of those morons who assumes that if you don’t like, it must have been done by the US.

From your own article, it sounds like China was the one who gained from this coup.

Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 1:45 pm

No, just as there was not evidence of the CIA’s involvement in putting Pinochet in power in Chile in 1973, until years afterward and I have personally suffered through the ramifications of that. Where were you to assuage our suspicions back then? It rubs us the same way Sykes-Picot does in other parts.

And as I see what the United States is unethically doing with climate change, I would be an idiot to take anything the United States does at face value. Once someone develops a reputation for unethical and reprehensible behavior, for example Al Capone, it is hard to take anything they do without suspicion.

And I am hardly alone:

US seen as bigger threat to democracy than Russia or China, global poll finds

And nor is what the United States doing a “secret” nor is it some grand conspiracy theory, it is openly taught at the University of Chicago:

And that is because “our basic strategy is to topple regimes all over the world, not simply because we like democracy, but because we believe that whoever gets elected will be pro-Western” ~ John Mearsheimer, University of Chicago.


And once China believed the United States intelligence community was involved in Hong Kong, they abrogated the Hong Kong Handover Treaty, world opinion be damned. And what does the United States care about the people living in Hong Kong? Oops, “my bad”. Sorry about your misfortune, but it was a good try. (lol)

Now it is okay to believe that the United States is all about “baseball and apple pie“, but when you are on the receiving end of the bat, you develop other ideas.

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
John Tillman
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 2:13 pm

That the US approved of ousting Allende was no secret in 1973, but the armed forces would have acted regardless of American government policy. Public opinion, especially of the oligarchy and middle class, but also the poor, who suffered from food and fuel shortages, drove them, not CIA backing. Economic hardships, confiscations and political repression led to mass strikes, marches and popular unrest against Allende’s government.

Without the 1973 Chamber of Deputies’ resolution, passed 81-47, the military probably wouldn’t have overthrown the Communist regime. In the 1970 election, Allende got 36.2% to 34.9% and 27.8% for the other two main candidates. The Senate followed tradition and selected the highest vote-getter, but only after Allende singed a Statute of Constitutional Guarantees, proposed by Christian Democrat members in return for their support. Of course Allende had no intention of abiding by its terms.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Tillman
Reply to  John Tillman
May 8, 2021 2:33 pm

And as it was that transparent in 1973, it is quite easy to see what the United States is doing in the world today and that is reflected by negative world opinion… good to see that you are awake. 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
John Tillman
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 3:20 pm

World opinion may or may not be negative, and if so, could be for any number of reasons. But the fact remains that people want to move to the US, while fleeing Communist countries.

Ask people in Hong Kong their opinion of the US.

Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 2:33 pm

In other words, you have no evidence, just a deep seated certainty that the US is behind everything you don’t like.

BTW, I love the way you equate opinion with fact.
Lots of morons have been conditioned to believe that the US is a threat to democracy, therefore it is. No need to think for yourself.

A quote from some person in Chicago, becomes proof that this is what US policy was at the time. Sheesh, anything counts as evidence for you.

China believed something, therefor it was true and everything that happened after that is the fault of the US.

Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 3:15 pm

Right now the United States is a threat to a democracy. It’s own democracy. The governing party in two of the three branches of government is openly on the stereo slider between socialist, and communist. And, they are also openly plotting a coup to overthrow the third.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  sendergreen
May 9, 2021 4:13 am

“Right now the United States is a threat to a democracy. It’s own democracy.”

Comeon now, let’s be a little more precise.

The United States is not a threat to democracy, it is the radical, socialist Democrats within the United States that is the threat to democracy.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  MarkW
May 9, 2021 4:12 am

“In other words, you have no evidence, just a deep seated certainty that the US is behind everything you don’t like.”

That’s my impression.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 8:31 am

Well, this is my impression of the United States:

“If I survive the CIA, I still have five years left to go.” ~ Democratically elected President of the Philippines,


2006 Audio Emerges of Hillary Clinton Proposing Rigging Palestine Election

“I do not think we should have pushed for an election in the Palestinian territories. I think that was a big mistake,” said Sen. Clinton. “And if we were going to push for an election, then we should have made sure that we did something to determine who was going to win.” ~ Hillary Clinton

Chomsky recalls being taken aback that “anyone could support the idea—offered by a national political leader, no less—that the U.S. should be in the business of fixing foreign elections.”


A Blacklisted Film and the New Cold War

Why is the U.S. mainstream media so frightened of a documentary that debunks the beloved story of how “lawyer” Sergei Magnitsky uncovered massive Russian government corruption and died as a result?

Instead we – in the land of the free, home of the brave – are protected from seeing this documentary produced by filmmaker Andrei Nekrasov who was known as a fierce critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin but who in this instance found the West’s widely accepted Magnitsky storyline to be a fraud.

But the Magnitsky myth took off in 2012 when Browder sold his tale to neocon Senators Ben Cardin, D-Maryland, and John McCain, R-Arizona, who threw their political weight behind a bipartisan drive in Congress leading to the passage of the Magnitsky sanctions act, the opening shot in the New Cold War.


The Magnitsky Act: Behind the Scenes

(film at bottom of page)


Leaked memo schooled Tillerson on human rights

Hook’s memo “tells Tillerson that we should do exactly what Russian and Chinese propaganda says we do—use human rights as a weapon to beat up our adversaries while letting ourselves and our allies off the hook,” 


Boutros Boutros-Ghali: Make diplomacy, not war

And the experience of being booted out of the UN was enlightening for Boutros-Ghali.

“It would be some time before I fully realised that the United States sees little need for diplomacy; power is enough,” he wrote. “Diplomacy is perceived by an imperial power as a waste of time and prestige and a sign of weakness.”


And that is only the thin end of the wedge.

And so while you might have the luxury of waiting around for the FOIA documents, if you get them at all, many years after the fact, many of us on the receiving end have to rely on our wits. And it is similar to climate change, if the only thing you will accept as “proof” is Michael Mann admitting he fabricated the Hockey Stick, good luck with that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Anon
May 10, 2021 5:22 am

I’m not sure what you are trying to say with all those quotes, but I am not surprised at all that Hillary Clinton was trying to rig the Palestinian election.

How does that make America evil for all time?

The Clinton-Obama-Biden Criminal Enterprise is certainly a conspiracy of the kind you are talking about, but, imo, this conspiracy is limited.

I don’t believe in Grand Conspiracies that go on for centuries.

I do believe in small conspiracies when they prove to be true.

If you want to get a good handle on the Clinton-Obama-Biden Criminal Enterprise, you should read a book titled “Fallout” by John Solomon.

It’s no wonder these Democrat criminals went nuts when Trump asked the Ukrainian president to investigate corruption because all the Democrat players had personal interests in Ukraine! Even Adam Shiff, the Democrat in charge of the House Intelligence Committee and one of Trump’s harshes critics, it turns out has a financial interest in Ukraine!

You can bet the Democrats did NOT want corruption in Ukraine investigated because they were all hip-deep in the corruption.

Trump stumbled across it and they tried to remove him from office over it.

Yes, a bunch of criminals are running our country right now. But maybe not for much longer.

When the Republicans take back the House of Representatives in 2023, they can restart the investigations into Democrat corruption in Ukraine.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 10, 2021 9:26 am

How does that make America evil for all time.

Is that what I said? Is that what the poll said?

Using your logic, I could just as equally deflect all current criticism of China by recalling its “golden ages”. So, which age do you suggest we use to critique China?

But as my life only spans a few decades, all I can give you is feedback about the current era; the one that I inhabit. So, while the United States of George Washington might have been a paradise, I don’t see how that applies to the current era, current observations and current experiences.

So, if things are going to change for the better in 2023, I am all for it. I too don’t believe in grand conspiracies that go on for centuries. However, the Soviet Era went on for 70 years and you don’t need a grand conspiracy to evaluate or form an opinion about that. And nor does the Soviet Era cast a pall over all of Russian history or its future.

So, as to the the United States, my criticism of the United States is limited to the CIA Era: 1947 – present. (74 years)

And it is hardly an original formulation:

“I never would have agreed to the formulation of the Central Intelligence Agency back in forty-seven, if I had known it would become the American Gestapo.” ~ Harry S. Truman

“We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it.” ~ Harry S. Truman

In my opinion America currently is under the sway of an administrative state that is not accountable to its voters. And that is the antithesis of “democracy”… and at the root of many of the world’s problem. IMHO

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Reply to  Anon
May 10, 2021 12:42 pm

You’ll have a hard time convincing the people here that US foreign policy is routinely psychopathic, and is constantly meddlng in other countries’ affairs. Despite the reams of documented evidence.

Conservatives have a peculiar blind spot when it comes to this. They are “patriotic” in the sense they feel personally attacked when you point out the atrocities their governments (Red and Blue) have commited all over the globe, and also assume anyone raising the matter must be a limp-wristed liberal. They realise CAGW is nonsense, and dislike Big Government, but are unable to see that their military and security services have been hijacked by psychopaths and are the very epitome of Big Government.

Half of them think the latter rigged the US election in 2020, but refuse to admit where the riggers honed their expertise: enforcing the Monroe Doctrine throughout South & Central America over the last ~150 years.

Of course there’s also the outright invasion of countries when it suits them (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya) or funding jihadis (Syria) when it doesn’t.

Read Smedley Butler if you don’t believe us. Or “Confessions of an Economic Hitman”.

America really is the biggest threat to world peace at present. The best you can say is that if the US didn’t exist, some other hegemon would be just as bad, or maybe even worse.

Last edited 1 year ago by BigJim
Reply to  observer
May 10, 2021 2:41 pm

Thanks for that. That was pretty much what I was trying say, not to pick on conservatives or liberals but point out that there is a component of the United States government that seems to exist independent of the people (who they ostensibly serve) and some of the politicians. And whether I am correct or not I believe it is the intelligence community and its satellite agencies. That is what it looks like from here. IMHO

*Interesting observation about the Monroe Doctrine providing the necessary tools and practice for what occurred in 2020. Yep.

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Abolition Man
Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 11:29 am

Are you implying that US Intelligence might be involved in overthrowing democratically elected? Did you mean Trump, or was there someone else you had in mind!?
Also, thinking that our IC might do something to counter the CCP seems quaintly idealistic these days! Everyone in the media and administration know that right wing counterinsurgents are THE greatest threat to whirled peas today!

Reply to  Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 2:36 pm

What I find fascinating is that anon lays out a case of how it was in the interest of China to over throw the regime, and against the interest of the US.
Then he jumps to the conclusion that the US must have been involved.
Cognitive dissonance at it’s highest.

Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 6:33 pm

Myanmar, U.S.: Re-engagement and the Chinese Reaction
China in particular may be worried about the sudden U.S. interest in
Myanmar. Beijing considers Myanmar within China’s sphere of interest,
and a vital part of China’s future energy security. This makes China
much more sensitive to U.S. moves in Myanmar. 

For Beijing’s part, U.S. bilateral engagement with Myanmar — like the
emerging U.S. bilateral engagement with North Korea — appears to be
part of a long-term initiative to surround China and slowly break off
its regional levers. And as a critical element in China’s future energy
policy, the idea that Washington could come in, come to terms with the
government, and then start shifting Myanmar’s energy contracts from
Chinese companies to U.S. and other Western companies represents a major
threat to China’s long-term planning. This difference in perception
could end up unintentionally affecting other aspects of U.S.-Chinese
relations, from maritime policy and naval security to resource
competition and North Korean disarmament.


And that was in 2012, before rare earth’s became crucial. Maybe we will learn more once the United States lets Julian Assange out of prison?

More fascination here:

I could also lay out the case of how it was in the interest of the United States to over throw the Castro regime via a Naval Blockade in 1962, and against the interests of Soviet Union. Then jump to the conclusion that the Soviet Union must have been involved (i.e. precipitated it). Cognitive dissonance from the Kennedy Administration at its highest no doubt. (lol)

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Anon
May 9, 2021 4:19 am

“Beijing considers Myanmar within China’s sphere of interest,”

I think Beijing thinks everything is within its sphere of interest.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tom Abbott
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 9:29 am

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Ukraine, Philippines, Korea, Mali, Cuba, Grenada, Venezuela, Panama, Palestine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Somalia, Turkey… in addition to Hong Kong and Taiwan.

And the irony is that the United States provided the investment, money and factories to make China, knowing it was a repressive totalitarian state, what it is today… making all of us in the world safer. 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Anon
May 10, 2021 5:35 am

“And the irony is that the United States provided the investment, money and factories to make China”

Not the United States, but rather, ignorant/greedy American politicians provided the wherewithal.

Take me for example: I would not have enabled the Chicoms. But nobody asked me. I’m part of the United States, too, but ignorant/greedy politicians went against what I would have preferred.

Generalizing about 350 million Americans leads to errors in thinking.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 10, 2021 9:48 am

Well, unfortunately it is not the 350 million American’s that the world interacts with, but its ignorant and greedy politicians. Likewise this is the same of China verses the CCP.

And in all likelihood the last US election was not honest:

“In my mind there was no question that those states were in fact stolen. That doesn’t make the national media happy but I think as a historian people will find it’s absolutely true.” ~ Newt Gingrich, former Speaker of the House.

And a lot of us, who have lived outside the United States, have experienced bonafide corrupt elections… they are not that hard to spot and the 2020 election has many of the hallmarks and does not pass the “smell test”. IMHO

So, it appears that although a majority of 350 million Americans wanted to a different administration, the greedy politicians prevailed in the end. And both you and the rest of us, living outside the United States, have to live with that.

Reply to  Anon
May 10, 2021 12:50 pm

It’s reasonable to reflexively assume the psychopaths of the US Deep State are behind any military coup, simply because they so often are; but in this case, cui bono would suggest the Chinese are more likely to have backed the Myamar junta.

Also, the fact that the US is making a big fuss about the coup suggests they weren’t its sponsors.

Just because the US is the biggest meddler in other countries’ politics, doesn’t mean other countries don’t also meddle on occasion.

Reply to  observer
May 11, 2021 10:10 am

Well, if we are talking about “suggestions”:

The US backed the Ukraine Coup in 2014. Russia responded by invading Crimea and backing the Donbas Separatists. (Cui Bono? Russia) So the fact that the US is making a “big fuss” about it now suggests they were not the coup’s sponsors? (I don’t get it).

And the parallel/MO is easy to see in Myanmar:

The Democratically elected government of Myanmar restricted access to essential rare earth elements (which the United States coincidentally considers of vital strategic importance) angering China. China responded by backing the military coup which restored its rare earth supply. (Cui Bono? China) So the fact that the US is making a “big fuss” about it now suggests they were not trying to peal Myanmar away from China’s influence or curtail China’s access to rare earth supplies? (Cui Bono? United States)

And Western money has been pouring into Myanmar:


So, maybe it is “kumbaya money” in celebration of democracy? Or maybe it is tied to economics and the strategic geo-political interests of the United States? (you decide)

Sure, it is “possible” that the democratically elected of government of Myanmar decided to take on China without consulting its Western financial backers. But it is just as likely to be the opposite as well, given the track record of the United States.

Time will eventually tell, but meanwhile, I would not put much stock in what the United States says publicly (the fuss as you call it). Sorry, been there done that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Reply to  Anon
May 15, 2021 6:22 pm

But the US aren’t making a fuss about the Maidan coup.

They are making a fuss about Putin annexing Crimea, true, but the fact Russia hadn’t done this before suggests they were happier with the previous arrangement: Ukraine in their orbit and a buffer against NATO expansion, but having to pay Kiev rent for Sevastopol.

Curious George
Reply to  Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 4:26 pm

Isn’t “US Intelligence” an oxymoron?  

Reply to  Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 6:45 pm

US Intelligence pressuring the democratically elected government of Myanmar to cut off Chinese access to rare earth elements. I doubt Trump even knows what a rare earth element is. IMHO

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Anon
May 9, 2021 4:23 am

“I doubt Trump even knows what a rare earth element is.”

You are way off-track thinking Trump is stupid. That would cause me to think you are off-track on other things, too.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 10:11 am

That was not what I was implying, but I have under graduate chemistry majors that could not identify the rare earth elements if I gave them a periodic table. Thus, all leaders rely on a cadre of advisors to provide them with expertise and unless you hand pick all of them, they can provide you with advice that is in their best interests and inimical to your own. Example:

Retiring diplomat says defense officials misled Trump on troop count in Syria


So, even when you elect a new President, that is not an indicator of who really controls the country. And that was why Flynn fell out with Obama, he would send intelligence up the chain of command and it would be altered by the administration to maintain the politically correct narrative, probably for his CNN audience. (lol)

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Anon
May 10, 2021 5:42 am

Trump is pretty good at finding good talent. One reason is he gets rid of talent real quick if they don’t get the job done the way he wants, and he finds someone else. He gets some turnover at first, but eventually gets some good people.

Trump is not stupid. He was talking North Korea policy, and what he would do about the situation, back in the 1990’s, so he has been thinking about things like this for a long time. He’s not a Johnny-come-lately.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 10, 2021 1:02 pm

Trump is an amoral blowhard who picked “talent” like Bolton and Pompeo.

As for him not being stupid: I’m well aware he wasn’t recommending people inject household bleach, for instance, but what exactly was he trying to convey? What kind of narcissist insists on needlessly inserting himself into TV presentations on a subject he clearly knows virtually nothing about?

The kindest interpretation is that Trump – who was quite sharp when he was younger – is in cognitive decline.

The sad thing is that Biden is clearly in even worse shape, and lacks Trump’s instinctive understanding – honed from years of dealing with red tape as a successful businessman, no doubt – that regulations and taxes throttle economies.

And Trump either saw through CAGW, or was in hock to oil companies. Either way, his quitting the Paris Agreement was a 4 year respite for America that is now being reversed.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Abolition Man
May 9, 2021 4:17 am

“Also, thinking that our IC might do something to counter the CCP seems quaintly idealistic these days!”

Isn’t that the truth!

Reply to  Anon
May 8, 2021 11:54 am

And Africa before that. The first target and victim of environmental and social progress.

May 8, 2021 10:50 am

So lemmesee here …

1. Drilling for fossil fuels on federal lands is bad.
2. Open pit mining for lithium on federal lands is good.

I guess that polluting the environment, to save the environment from Climate Change is acceptable.

Reply to  Sage
May 8, 2021 11:09 am

Yes! The “climate change” agenda has completely subverted traditional environmentalism / conservation and has turned the planet over the the extraction industry: big mining (for rare earths), big agriculture (for biofuels), big oil (for for fracking, Arctic LNG exploration in pursuit of the ideal transition fuel ), big timber (for biomass) all in addition to big wind and big solar taking over the natural landscape and killing protected species.

And the green progressive organizations like Green Peace are capitalizing on it all, with the Promote then Protest fundraising strategy. First raise money to promote biomass then a few years later, renounce it and raise money to protest deforestation. First raise money to promote closing coal mines in favor of natural gas, then raise money to protest the pipelines and to preserve the Arctic. And cancel anyone who notices.

It is an amazing thing to watch… (lol)

Last edited 1 year ago by Anon
David A
Reply to  Anon
May 9, 2021 8:28 am

Good comment.

Politics are challenging. To turn a Michelle O quote, ” I generally was proud of my nation untill Obama came into power”

His foreign policy was incredibly destructive. Not all US meddling is bad. The US definitely helped the Sha to power in Iran. The affect was very good, and the US leveraged the UK to give far greater oil profits to the people of Iran. The Iranian economy soared, and the radical Islamists were stifled. Women got an education and the burka was shunned.

Carter practiced non- interference.
The result was a disaster for the people of Iran and the Middle East.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Sage
May 8, 2021 11:09 am

Just like k1lling a bald eagle is a felony that is, unless you’re the operator of a windmill farm harvesting federal subsidies.

Ron Long
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
May 8, 2021 11:54 am

You got that right.

Reply to  Sage
May 8, 2021 11:58 am

3 Also, Green occupation of of lands used by native vegans… herbivores and green producers.

And first-order forcings of [catastrophic] [anthropogenic] immigration reform (e.g. refugee crises) with good intentions and “benefits”.

Last edited 1 year ago by n.n
Tom in Toronto
Reply to  Sage
May 8, 2021 1:21 pm

Polluting the environment so that the rich can virtue-signal just by driving around.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Sage
May 9, 2021 4:25 am

“I guess that polluting the environment, to save the environment from Climate Change is acceptable.”

Yes, it is. Look at all the windmills the alarmists want to pollute the environment with. You can’t care for the environment and support building those monstrosities.

David Kamakaris
May 8, 2021 10:56 am

“NYT Notices a Lot More Lithium Needed for Biden’s Electric Vehicle Push”

How many years have most of us on this blog have been saying this? Think maybe the woke crowd might listen to us regarding CAGW? Nah! I believe in miracles but that one is a stretch.

Reply to  David Kamakaris
May 8, 2021 12:06 pm

Fossil earth elements are ostensibly renewable and sustainable, and rather Green, not green for the environment.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  n.n
May 8, 2021 8:47 pm

What are “fossil earth elements?”

May 8, 2021 10:56 am

Is it time yet for the world to realize that many products on offer today are “indulgence” purchases.

EVs are firmly in this category – a “solution” in search of a problem.

Don’t believe me?

Go ask the local inhabitants of the areas where lithium & cobalt are to be mined whether they would rather welcome an open-cut mining operation in their backyard, or a storage dam for an adequate, reliable supply of potable water.

Now, I don’t have a problem with anyone spending THEIR money on anything legal and unharmful to others that takes their fancy.

But don’t try & tell the rest of us that your “indulgence purchase” is for the good of everyone.

Reply to  Mr.
May 8, 2021 12:09 pm

Fossil earth elements, rare in distribution, inclusive in collateral damage.

David A
Reply to  Mr.
May 9, 2021 8:32 am

“Go ask the local inhabitants of the areas where lithium & cobalt are to be mined whether they would rather welcome an open-cut mining operation in their backyard, or a storage dam for an adequate, reliable supply of potable water.”

Ask the sane residents of California if the would prefer an abundant water supply to weather a perfectly normal severe drought, or have a train to nowhere.

Joel O'Bryan
May 8, 2021 10:57 am

If it can’t happen, it won’t as it applies to finding and securing the amount of mineral resources needed to drive this unreliable energy crazy train in the name of a climate scam. There is only one inescapable conclusion that can be drawn from seemingly rational, intelligent people pursuing something that can’t be done in regards to securing future energy sources.

At its most fundamental level, the climate scam with its accompanying renewable electricity sources and batteries for EVs is about one thing. That one thing is about setting the conditions of limited, expensive energy in order to depopulate the world to something under a billion humans.

Now while I believe Joe Biden and ilk are too stupid to see this, these US Dems are being controlled and manipulated by a darker, much more evil intelligent globalist group.

Agenda 2030.

Previously, Agenda 21

The UN puts a pretty face on what is in reality a deeply malevolent intent. And China and Russia are okay with this as they understand Agenda 2030 and the Climate Scam intent for what it is. They have no intention of actually doing this to themselves while the West destroys itself and a globalist-socialist New world Order rises out of the ashes of what was once a dominate Western-US aligned political military superpower no longer able to push them around.

Last edited 1 year ago by Joel O’Bryan
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
May 8, 2021 12:16 pm

Thanks to the normalization of planned parent/hood [religious] philosophy and practices, dysfunctional orientations, and social progress, America NOW (pun intended) has a progressive population, thus the demand for [catastrophic] [anthropogenic] immigration reform to compensate for emergent deficits. Think of “our Posterity”, indeed. Hah, get off my lawn. Abort the baby, cannibalize her profitable parts, and sequester her carbon pollutants. A wicked solution.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
May 9, 2021 4:38 am

“The UN puts a pretty face on what is in reality a deeply malevolent intent. And China and Russia are okay with this as they understand Agenda 2030 and the Climate Scam intent for what it is. They have no intention of actually doing this to themselves while the West destroys itself and a globalist-socialist New world Order rises out of the ashes of what was once a dominate Western-US aligned political military superpower no longer able to push them around.”

I think this is what is in the future for the United States if we don’t oust these insane socialist Democrats from power in the United States.

Joe Biden’s policies are wreaking havoc in the United States. Let’s hope enough Amercians see this and do something about it at the ballot box. Gasoline prices are already up over a dollar a gallon and going higher. You say you are not going to tax the poor people, Joe? You already are! Your policies are causing all prices to go higher and the poor get to pay those higher prices with no help from you. Thanks a lot, Joe.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
May 9, 2021 7:38 am

It can’t happen because the resources required are too great.

For the UK alone the metal resources needed to make all cars and vans electric by 2050 and all sales purely EV by 2035 (not including LGV and HGV fleets) would take
207,900 tonnes of cobalt
264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate
at least 7200 tonnes of neodymium and disprosium
2,362,500 tonnes of copper

This represents 2 times the world production of cobalt, nearly all the world production of neodymium, 3/4 the world production of lithium and at least half the world production of copper in 2018.


Last edited 1 year ago by Dave Andrews
Andy Espersen
May 8, 2021 11:06 am

Oh no – you’ve got it wrong. They are not “wrecking” the planet. They are “saving” it

Abolition Man
Reply to  Andy Espersen
May 8, 2021 11:32 am

Didn’t we go through this with villages and Vietnam Nam? Just hope and pray that this doesn’t turn out as badly as that one!

Shoki Kaneda
May 8, 2021 11:19 am

Since almost no carbonphobes have worked in manufacturing, it is not surprising they do not understand total life cycle costs. Many seem to think that Teslas magically appear in their driveways, fabricated from pixie dust.

Reply to  Shoki Kaneda
May 8, 2021 12:16 pm

In Stork They Trust

Gregory Woods
Reply to  Shoki Kaneda
May 8, 2021 12:33 pm

and Unicorn farts..

Steve Case
May 8, 2021 11:32 am

A short search on Lithium from sea or dead sea turns up interesting links that all say or at least between the lines say, “Not any time soon”

Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 11:38 am

What the heck is going on!!?
The NYT is actually acknowledging that there might be problems achieving the Green Nirvana? Did they just wake up and smell the coffee, or is there a little bird telling them that support for the Green Raw Deal outside of government is collapsing!
The eagles have been screaming it out for years; so what has changed to make the urinalists sit up and take notice? Color me skeptical!

Reply to  Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 12:21 pm

They’re selective, opportunistic, relativistic, and politically congruent for the sake of manufacturing and exploiting sociopolitical leverage. Something has changed in the [political] climate and [social] environment to force an adjusted calculus.

Reply to  Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 2:21 pm

They only will protect Bidens GND in advance in the probably case of failure, it isn’t Bidens fault, but the fault of missing necessary materials.

Just Sayin’
May 8, 2021 11:49 am

Suggest you Google ‘reluctance motor’ and then AEM. Rare earths are not needed for this type of engine. Also, vanadium might do the job instead of lithium – but still very dirty at present.

John Tillman
Reply to  Just Sayin’
May 8, 2021 12:19 pm

Vanadium redox flow batteries are bulky, so better suited for grid storage than in vehicles. However, China and Russia lead the world in vanadium reserves, by far.

Reply to  John Tillman
May 8, 2021 11:31 pm

Sigh. Grid storage is farther away than the just another 50 until we actually get self sustaining fusion, and another 50 until we can build enough fusion plants just to keep NYC lit. Grid storage is almost as mythical as net zero.
What we may get is alternate production with a Green indulgence, but likely not.

May 8, 2021 12:14 pm

Well, Lithium is a very light metal, so it is abundant on the Earth.
The problem is, it is difficult to separate it from Natrium.
The separation is very ecologically unfriendly…
You will not want to have it close to your home.

Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 12:29 pm

Lithium is a problem. Cobalt for cathodes is a problem. Rare earths are not a problem. They aren’t geologically rare, and the US Mountain Pass deposit is one of the largest known. The problem with rare earths is the processing to extract them from the ore. To do that in an environmentally responsible way is much more costly than the mess China permits in Inner Mongolia. The solution is to tariff the heck out of Chinese rare earth exports on environmental grounds, which levels the playing field for responsible processors. Doubt Biden will do that; too Trumpian.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 1:32 pm

The cosmic, per chance karmic, irony of labor and environmental arbitrage that underlie social progress and environmentalism. Perception, a loud megaphone, and secular lucre matter.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 6:41 pm

Buy as much as cheaply as you can from China and stockpile it.

Get the mines and processing plants in the US set up and a skeleton crew in place to maintain and train if production is necessary.

Do it is secret, don’t tell the CCP!

Sorry, I forgot OBiden is the pres.

Reginald R. Muskett, Ph.D.
May 8, 2021 12:31 pm

Time to buy Li, and Heavy Metal Element etf/stocks! My uranium stocks have tripled in daily price since late December. Yahoo! 🙂


Reply to  Reginald R. Muskett, Ph.D.
May 8, 2021 11:35 pm

Hope that they let you keep them. Who will nationalize lithium first? Whoever it is, bet they got big missiles and lots of (lead) bullets.

alastair gray
May 8, 2021 2:14 pm

Quite right that you need lots of rare earth for car motors but for torque, not efficiency. A copper coil and steel electric induction motor is very efficient at 85- 97%. The need for permanent magnets in a car motor is high torque at low speed to give fast acceleration from rest. The starting torque of an induction motor is very low.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  alastair gray
May 8, 2021 5:17 pm

True. I was going to post this, but decided not to given general audience deep science level.
Deep science level comes from my trusty Ford MY 2007 hybrid Escape AWD with class 1 tow. Like Prius, Ford downsized the OTTO equivalent net HP V6 to a small Atkinson I4. Lots of lost torque, made up by the electric machine at low speeds. Without that low speed high torque emachine, the whole design does NOT work. Switched reluctance motors are great for Dyson vacs, not so great for cars from a stop light.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 11:41 pm

And, you may be lucky and not son get a terminal battery warning on your dashboard telling you to have a dealer replace the vehicle. My family’s history with Ford and Honda hybrids runs 5-7 years before the vehicle won’t pass smog check for registration. Dead cells add up, and below a certain level, the computer puts a deadly warning light on that prevents the car from meeting environmental standards written for CAN bus smog equipment. I look forward to the first driver who stuffs a diesel generator in the bed of his Tesla truck.

May 8, 2021 2:57 pm

See you just don’t get it. In Bidenland, we have to destroy the environment in order to save it. It is all a bunch of political grandstanding anyway. The feasibility means little to nothing.

Last edited 1 year ago by Michael
May 8, 2021 2:58 pm

The thing to publicize is the near impossibililty for even normally well equipped Fire Services to put out a lithium battery fire. That just happened recently with the crash of a self driving Tesla. The New York Times said it tool 30,000 gallons of water to put the fire out. Several other sources said the 30K gallons did not put out the fire and it was allowed to burn itself out. The byproducts of a lithium battery fire I have read are very neuro-toxic, The public needs to demand much more information, and halt efforts to expand, and heavily subsidize electric vehicles.

Reply to  sendergreen
May 8, 2021 3:29 pm

Regardless of the exact cause if the final termination of the lithium battery fire, it took FOUR HOURS before the fire was out. A “normal” single family sized gas/diesel vehicle fire takes a only few minutes once fire services gets the hoses on it. Below is a link to the National Transportation Safety Board’s report on the hazards Lithium batteries present to first responder’s.


Reply to  sendergreen
May 8, 2021 10:16 pm

Lithium salts have long been used as a depression and bi polar disorder treatment Spreading it around the environment can’t be safe

Geoff Sherrington
May 8, 2021 4:16 pm

Do not knock mining unless you have been involved with a mine or more, excluding protesting about mining.
The tiny, tiny fraction of the globe disturbed by mining is efficiently done, at high yield per square kilometre. These days, rehab is second nature in many countries and returns the land to nearly pre-mining state. Geoff S

Smart Rock
May 8, 2021 4:42 pm

Lithium miners would have to rip the countryside apart, digging up low grade Lithium containing minerals in vast open cut mines, creating enormous toxic waste dumps

The same old mantra that we always hear from the mainstream media. “Mining Bad!”

Hard-rock mining in developed countries is carried on in regulatory frameworks that require rigorous safety and environmental protection measures including tailings management, waste rock disposal, groundwater protection, and on and on. You can’t just start mining the way they did it in the 1930s. This mining-bashing is a typical knee-jerk reaction from uninformed journalists on the (densely populated) green side of the aisle.

Hard-rock lithium usually occurs in granite pegmatites, as the mineral spodumene (a lithium-aluminium silicate) and less commonly as lepidolite (a gorgeous, pink lithium-bearing mica). The waste rock and tailings are basically “granite” and are quite benign – “toxic waste dumps” exist only in the imagination of those who don’t want to know the facts.

There are lots of lithium deposits being developed in Australia and Canada (and probably in Brazil too) and even in the US, but most have not fared very well because the price of lithium products dropped dramatically due to oversupply. Battery-grade lithium carbonate sold for $12,000 per ton in 2018 and had dropped to $6,000 at the end of 2020. It seems to be rebounding now, and if the price stays firm, there should be no shortage of hard-rock lithium in the medium term.

The world’s largest hard-rock lithium mine, the Greenbushes mine in Western Australia, recently doubled its production. It also produces tantalum (for those capacitors in our mobile phones), caesium (cesium) for all kinds of weird stuff, and tin. It has reserves + resources of over 15 million metric tons of LCE (lithium carbonate equivalent). Greenbushes is 51% owned by a Chinese company. Aussies have been particularly keen on selling their assets to China, and some of them are starting to regret it now (apparently not including Dan Andrews, the lockdown king of Victoria).

The Greenbushes mine has been in production (as a tin mine until 1977) since 1906. The total area of disturbed land, including open pits, waste rock dumps, surface plant, tailings ponds and reclaimed land is less than 11 km² or 0.00000004% of the land area of WA, or 0.17% of the area of the City of Perth. “Ripping the countryside apart”. Yeah right.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Smart Rock
May 8, 2021 9:05 pm

There are a few other lithium-bearing minerals, such as petalite. When in large single crystals, they are readily identified. However, when they are fist-sized and smaller, and covered with white mud in a dump, they are pretty tough to identify. Yet, there are huge tonnages in dumps, with little in the way of unique properties to separate them unless someone has worked out a flotation scheme.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Smart Rock
May 9, 2021 6:08 am

We would have half of the environmental impact if only we could find dilithium crystals…

May 8, 2021 5:20 pm

Speaking of lithium.

““Whether and how we should administer trace amounts of lithium depends in part on what future empirical evidence reveals,” they argue.”


John in Oz
May 8, 2021 6:01 pm

Why is there no outcry over ‘peak lithium/cobalt/etc’) as here has been and often still is, for ‘peak oil’?

There are none so blind as those who will not see

Clyde Spencer
May 8, 2021 8:34 pm

Once easily accessible Lithium brines were exhausted, Lithium miners would have to rip the countryside apart, digging up low grade Lithium containing minerals in vast open cut mines, …

It isn’t quite that bad. The next likely source will be granitic pegmatites, which tend to be small operations compared to porphyry copper mines. Some forward-looking people are already developing operations. However, there are large quantities of lithium-bearing silicates in the waste-rock dumps of old mines in New England, New Mexico, California, and South Dakota. The problem will be economically separating out the lithium minerals from the rest.

The irony is that what to one generation is waste, may become valuable to a subsequent generation. But when the EPA declares a location a super-fund site, and remediates it, they complicate the legality of mining it again and increase the costs to undo the remediation.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clyde Spencer
Vincent Causey
May 9, 2021 12:47 am

I especially like the point that “lithium miners would have to rip the countryside apart digging up low grade lithium deposits in vast open cut mines.” Next time you get into an argument with a renewable fanatic, ask them what they feel about this.

May 9, 2021 3:14 am

We have to destroy the planet in order to save it lol

Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 3:49 am

From the article: ““Right now, if China decided to cut off the U.S. for a variety of reasons we’re in trouble,” said Ben Steinberg, an Obama administration official turned lobbyist.”

No, we are not in trouble, we will just drive our fossil-fuel-powered vehicles. We don’t need no stinkin’ lithium!

The ones who are in real trouble are alarmists who are trying to electrify our economy and are finding it easier said than done.

Gary Wayne Meyers
May 9, 2021 7:17 am

Oh! We’ll just buy it from China.

May 9, 2021 12:05 pm

where is it?

Well, just google ‘new lithium mine’

Jake J
May 10, 2021 2:36 pm

I am somewhat skeptical of a lithium shortage. The NYT has something up its sleeve.

May 10, 2021 6:41 pm

Not just raw lithium but the whole supply chain that runs through China.

May 11, 2021 4:55 pm

Lots of ‘rare earth elements’ in northern ON, northern PQ, and Labrador.

Price of extraction? Well, a lot in most of the locations as transportation links have to be built.

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