Climate Visionaries Explain why a Green Universal Basic Income is Required

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

Climate visionaries explaining why a green universal income will help head off a violent armed uprising by economically redundant workers, who can no longer find a job in the age of automation.

Future tech requires regulations and balanced ties to creation, author says

May 8, 2021
by Sarah Mac Donald

The dramatic loss of work during the COVID-19 pandemic may be a foretaste of the mass unemployment coming down the line in the near future as millions of jobs are displaced by robots, artificial intelligence or AI, and new technologies, according to Irish eco-theologian Fr. Seán McDonagh.

In his new book, Robots, Ethics and the Future of Jobs, McDonagh, who has written several pioneering works on the environment, predicts that in this emerging world, only 50% of people will have jobs. With increased use of AI and automation, many people will not be able to find paid work in areas such as retailing, caring roles, agriculture and financial services.

In Robots, Ethics and the Future of Jobs, McDonagh draws on the experience of the COVID-19 pandemic to spotlight how people might react to being out of work on a mass scale. He notes how after a few weeks of economic shutdown at the start of the lockdown, large rallies took place in some U.S. cities, with many of the participants carrying arms and demanding that the economy be opened up to allow them back to work.

“If there are jobs for only 40 or 50% of the population, what will those unable to get a job do?” he asks.

Look at what happened Australia and the attempt to ‘unfriend’ that country — that is how powerful these billion-dollar corporations are,” he added. “They push back against any efforts to curb them, and fines are a drop in the ocean to them. We cannot allow them to drive this on their terms.”

He believes governments must lead the way in regulating digital monopolies and must introduce a universal basic income to help offset the financial cost to workers replaced by technology. The eco-theologian told EarthBeat he would like to see something like the European Union’s COVID-19 fund to help alleviate the economic impact of coming job losses.

But while jobs will be lost, there will still be plenty of work, and a universal basic income could be linked to people’s participation in projects focused on climate justice and care for the Earth, he suggests.

Read more: https://www.ncronline.org/news/earthbeat/future-tech-requires-regulations-and-balanced-ties-creation-author-says

The authors don’t explain what happens to formerly proud and independent workers who don’t settle comfortably into their new life as Tolkienesque hobbits, but if they can’t find a job and don’t qualify for universal basic income, perhaps the plan is to simply allow nature to take its course. If you have a problem with this, talk to the terminator.

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May 8, 2021 2:07 pm

First of all, robots have to follow the 4 laws of Robotics.

MarkW
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 2:22 pm

Only if they are properly programmed into them.

Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 2:29 pm

That has to be one of the conditions for the licence to produce robots 😀

Thomas
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 2:57 pm

Too late. Robots have already killed people.

Richard (the cynical one)
Reply to  Thomas
May 8, 2021 5:26 pm

All robot killings have been completely accidental of course. No malice or forethought involved. The ‘Four Laws’ would only apply to sentient robots, and they aren’t scheduled to arrive for a few months.

Bryan A
Reply to  Richard (the cynical one)
May 8, 2021 8:24 pm

That’s because sentient robots require fusion power cells

Reply to  Bryan A
May 9, 2021 8:10 am

Not really. You can fit more storage and compute power than the human brain has in a just few rack slots and would consume only a couple of KW. It will be a few more years before this much computer power would fit in a package the size of a brain and consume less than 100W. SSD’s with on-chip neural network processors will be the enabling technology …

Connecting the storage and compute power togther in the right way to achieve sentience is the missing link, although there is the possibility that sentience emerges from complexity and someone will build a large enough, self learning neural network that will suddenly and surprisingly become sentient.

Ruleo
Reply to  co2isnotevil
May 9, 2021 2:11 pm

It’s more than just “computing” power. A fully functioning human brain can process information 1 million times that of a PC.

The processing of visual and auditory inputs; the subsequent synchronicity (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK92837/), much less also incorporating proprioception…

Reply to  Ruleo
May 9, 2021 8:32 pm

it’s mostly a matter of storage and how that storage is organized, not computing power. Auditory and visual processing is already a mostly solved problem. Siri and similar AI’s are examples of audio processing. Google applies its AI engine to help teams of people in Hyderabad identify features in street view and satellite imagery.

Eric Vieira
Reply to  co2isnotevil
May 10, 2021 12:55 am

How was that thing called in the film… Genysis?
Any way, make sure that one can turn it off…

AndyHce
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 2:32 pm

Except, of course, for the special squads created for those special and important control tasks.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 8, 2021 2:49 pm

Yes, I read the complete package of books, wonderful stories ! that’s why I remeber the forth law I mentioned.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 6:59 pm

It was the Zeroth Law, which was placed above the First Law. It was developed by Giskard who reasoned, to his own demise, that robots had to control humans to protect them (humans) from destroying themselves.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 8, 2021 8:11 pm

After a bit I recalled that Giskard used his made up Zeroth Law to justify letting the Earth become radioactive by not stopping those who were doing it. Giskard reasoned that if humans didn’t leave Earth they would stagnate and die. Forcing them out into the Galaxy would save the race.
By letting the Earth die, he was violating the First Law and even though the tried to reason the Zeroth Law, the First Law was too strong and he died.

Last edited 2 months ago by Tom in Florida
Reginald Vernon Reynolds
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 8, 2021 8:40 pm

The earth is, and always has been, radioactive.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Reginald Vernon Reynolds
May 9, 2021 6:50 am

Obviously you haven’t read the story.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 8, 2021 7:20 pm
Richard Page
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 2:44 pm

Oh please. Most of the robots will be unable to tell the difference between a chair and a human. I really don’t think we’re within a hundred years of robots that need the laws of robotics. We’re much closer to ‘Runaway’ than ‘I, Robot’.

Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 2:51 pm

It’s far future, no question 😀 How far, we will see (or not for the one or the other)

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 7:02 pm

But before that there was HAL. When an AI says the magic words: “I am sorry Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that” it is all over for us humans.

Sara
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 9, 2021 6:58 am

And Dave the astronaut, recognizing that HAL3000 was the real threat, decommed HAL by reducing functions to basic stuff like temperature and atmosphere.
And when my sister gave me an iPhone (which I was too stubborn to buy), the guy at the phone shop installed SIRI and I couldn’t shut that beeyatch off. So I went back to the phone shop and told the phone shop guy that SIRI is HAL 3000’s Mommy, and he nodded, telling me he has seen that movie 7 (SEVEN) times.

Jon R
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 7:17 pm

Exactly what the AI wants us to think.

Drake
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 7:44 pm

Very interesting. I think the machine should determine who is violating a law, such as J walking as opposed to driving according to the posted speed limit and conditions, and let the guilty pay the price.

We have an almost total lack of consequences for bad behavior these days. Except Rudy, even if he didn’t do anything illegal, he will be punished.

Scott E
Reply to  Drake
May 8, 2021 10:30 pm

Yes, can’t wait until ED-209 is patrolling our streets.

Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 11:43 pm

Krishna
I though those 4 laws only exist in dystopian sci-fi like “I Robot”?

Sara
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 9, 2021 7:44 am

Those “laws” only existed in Asimov’s head. Even doctors have an inhibitory mantra: “First, do no harm”.

Robots? If one will keep my little house clean so I don’t have to do it, fine by me, but someone has to design those systems and do the testing stuff and find all the imagined flaws to work out before they can be marketed.

Gerry, England
Reply to  Sara
May 9, 2021 8:34 am

Quite right, Sara, just as they have done for self-driving cars…..oh, wait…

Sara
Reply to  Sara
May 9, 2021 7:21 pm

I kept waiting for the KITT2000 self-absorbed self-driving TransAm to get mischievous and drive off into the desert and refuse to budge from that warm sunny spot.

John Endicott
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 12, 2021 8:12 am

That only works if
1) such laws are programmed into the robots. (hint: there’s no law requiring such programming)
2) Such programming isn’t corrupted by computer virus and/or hackers. Look at the recent pipeline problems before you imagine such hacking is impossible.
3) Governments don’t act to circumvent those laws in order to produce robot soldiers to do their dirty work.

In short, even if such laws really existed for real world robots (we’re a long way away from robots that would require such laws) and if such laws were a good idea (as Eric pointed out, if you follow the laws to their logical conclusions, they’re really not as good as you think) they’re not the solution you think they are.

Last edited 2 months ago by John Endicott
Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 2:17 pm

Irish eco-theologian? I knew that Climate Change and the Green New Deal were religious like. Now we have a true priest thereof—an actual ordained eco-theologian Irish Friar. And here I thought it was the self-ordained Brooklyn bartender AOC. My bad.

Richard Page
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 2:40 pm

Fr. is an abbreviation of Father, not friar. He’s a Catholic priest.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 4:49 pm

I stand corrected. Am none of the above. But aren’t friars (Friar Tuck of Robinhood fame) also priests? Dunno.

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 4:51 pm

More akin to monks.

Richard Page
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 6:27 pm

Yeah, I’m not really sure of the distinction between friar and monk except perhaps monks are part of an enclosed order and friars work in the community? Neither monks nor friars are actually priests though.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 7:08 pm

Monks make alcohol.

David A
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 8, 2021 11:21 pm

Friar Tuck drank alcohol.

saveenergy
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 11:40 pm

Friars cook fish & chips

Redge
Reply to  saveenergy
May 9, 2021 12:12 am

To go with their alcohol

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 9, 2021 5:52 am

I have a couple of chickens I would classify as friars…

n.n
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 2:52 pm

Everyone has a faith (i.e. trust). Everyone has a religion (i.e. behavioral protocol), but in different frames of reference (e.g. morality in a universal frame, ethics in a relativistic frame, law in a politically congruent frame). The differences arise in ideology and traditions, motivated by special, peculiar, which is to say secular interests. Some religious philosophies are dictated by God, others by gods, but most by mortal gods and goddesses, even a bartender on an off day may have her followers.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 7:22 pm

I thought she was self-anointed, not “self-ordained.”

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 8, 2021 7:42 pm

The word you want is “arrogated”. It is used thus: ” She has arrogated unto herself the [power/authority] to …. ”

I am pretty sure you cannot anoint or ordain yourself. That requires recognition by an authority. A real one. The deluded achieve their self-appointed status through arrogation.

MarkW
May 8, 2021 2:21 pm

At one time, 90% of the population worked on farms.
Over the course of a century, automation put 90% of them out of work.
It’s such a tragedy that all of them starved to death because of this lack of work.

Automation makes things cheaper. Because of automation people won’t have to work as hard, or as long in order to earn enough to live on.

Several hundred years ago, people had to work dawn to dusk, 6 to 7 days a week.
Automation made it possible for the 40 hour week.

Further automation will continue this trend.

Automation and other technological improvements have been happening since people started working. It’s nothing new, it’s nothing to be afraid of.

Beyond that, eco-theologian???? What the $%^#@ is that?

Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 2:33 pm

Part of Ecotheology:
comment image

Ecotheology is a form of constructive theology that focuses on the interrelationships of religion and nature, especially in light of environmental concerns. Ecotheology generally assumes that there is a relationship between human religious/spiritual worldviews and the degradation of nature. It examines the interaction between ecological values such as sustainability and human domination of nature. The movement has launched numerous religious environmental projects around the world.

The starting point for ecological theology is usually the assumption that there is a connection between human religious/spiritual worldview and the deterioration of nature. It examines how ecological values such as sustainability and human subordination interact.

The burgeoning awareness of environmental crises has led to extensive religious reflection on the human relationship to the earth. Such reflection has strong precedent in most religious traditions in the realm of ethics and cosmology and can be seen as a subset or corollary of the theology of nature.

Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

German source

Can’t and will not follow about what they are ttalking.

These people show clearly, they have no clue about ecology.
The world isn’tt a salutary one, never was, never will be.
Real ecologist know that.

Last edited 2 months ago by Krishna Gans
noaaprogrammer
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 8, 2021 5:54 pm

… and to think that it was the liberals who went bonkers when the Interior Secretary in the Reagan Administration, James Watt, went all theological by saying “I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns,” in answer to a question about his views on preserving natural resources for future generations.

Regardless of political views and religious views, things never go well when trying to mix both.

gbaikie
Reply to  noaaprogrammer
May 8, 2021 6:09 pm

James Watt, should have mentioned the amount energy wasted by the sun:
“The sun releases energy at a mass–energy conversion rate of 4.26 million metric tons per second, which produces the equivalent of 384.6 septillion watts (3.846×1026 W). “
And say we have to go the heavens- so it’s not wasted.

Kazinski
Reply to  gbaikie
May 8, 2021 9:02 pm

How could going into space possibly be in the portfolio of an Interior Secretary, shouldn’t he be overseeing the renovation of the White House?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Krishna Gans
May 9, 2021 5:05 am

In other words a “crackpot”.

Thomas
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 3:07 pm

Agricultural automation also killed slavery, at least in the developed world. A tractor is cheaper and require less maintenance that the dozens of human slaves it replaces.

And kerosene saved the whales … cheaper lamp fuel.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Thomas
May 8, 2021 4:01 pm

Kerosene destroyed the proud heritage of the whaling industry.

Automobiles destroyed the buggy whip industry and forced horse breeders to focus on niche markets for race horses or exit the business. Many a knacker became redundant.

Computers destroyed the typewriter industry, the slide-rule industry, the encyclopedia industry, and countless others.

As you would expect from eco-theological theory, this lowered the standard of living and millions starved. Oh, wait, is that quite right? I’m not sure.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Rich Davis
May 8, 2021 7:39 pm

Society has sufficient excess wealth to marginally provide for those that don’t have the ‘Right Stuff’ to become programmers. That is because of the abundance of high energy-density fossil fuels. I don’t think that a transition to ‘renewable’ energy will provide us with the same level of largess. There will have to be some adjustments.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 9, 2021 8:39 am

Yes, I up-voted you in case your point was that unreliables is not a viable approach.

paul courtney
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 9, 2021 5:01 pm

Mr. Spencer: It appears the “right-stuff” lackers can be put to work on treadmills tied to the grid, to produce power when the wind sucks (or blows too much). To motivate, they (we??) will be told to walk toward the vaccine.

mcswelll
Reply to  Rich Davis
May 8, 2021 8:54 pm

I still have my slide rule, just in case.

saveenergy
Reply to  mcswelll
May 8, 2021 11:45 pm

So have I … cant remember how to use it, so it stays in its case.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  saveenergy
May 9, 2021 9:13 am

Adding the logarithmic lengths of two numbers is equivalent to multiplying them. Division is the inverse of multiplication. That’s basically all you have to remember.

Sara
Reply to  mcswelll
May 9, 2021 7:04 am

I still have a very usable IBM Selectric III, several type balls for it, and ribbons…. and I still use it. I also use pens and inks and pencils. And some place, my slide rule is stuck in a box of Old Things. Oh, yeah, I still shoot film occasionally. Found a company that processes film so I don’t have to do it and befoul the local water supply.

Rich Davis
Reply to  mcswelll
May 9, 2021 9:00 am

Back in 1979 I was required to buy a TI “scientific” calculator for $500, but our professor still made us learn how to use the slide rule. I guess he thought the same as you, mcswelll.

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  Thomas
May 8, 2021 5:14 pm

I remember being told that computers were going to nearly eliminate the need for paper in the office place.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
May 8, 2021 7:09 pm

And the three sea shells eliminated toilet paper.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom in Florida
May 9, 2021 8:43 am

That’s still coming

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
May 8, 2021 7:40 pm

I keep getting reminders from my utilities and other service providers to go ‘paperless!’

mcswelll
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
May 8, 2021 8:55 pm

My office is pretty much paper-free. (No, that’s not a joke.)

Rich Davis
Reply to  mcswelll
May 9, 2021 8:53 am

Yeah a paper-free office is possible but usually the brain trust who run offices think that the purpose of computers is to be more productive at generating printouts, or better yet paper forms that are filled out by hand. Then they hire people to scan in the paper printouts and crow that everything is “electronic”. You can’t fix stupid.

And a torque wrench can be used as a hammer, or a screwdriver can serve as a chisel.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Thomas
May 8, 2021 7:34 pm

Basically automation replaced all slaves, also in part because machines don’t compete for the same food that humans consume, and machines don’t have to be fed when they aren’t working.

The tragedy of our Civil War is that in a few years slavery would have become uneconomic and there wouldn’t have been the need for the great loss of life and limbs on both sides.

Hoyt Clagwell
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 8, 2021 7:57 pm

And think of how many new jobs we now have in the machine design, manufacturing and programming industry.
Ironically, here in the U.S., food is still largely picked by hand, ostensibly to save jobs, but then we import hundreds of thousands of seasonal workers because there aren’t enough Americans to fill those jobs, or who can live on those wages.

MarkW
Reply to  Hoyt Clagwell
May 9, 2021 6:45 am

There are only a small handful of crops that are still picked by hand,
and they are still working on trying to automate those.
All of the grain crops are harvested mechanically.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  MarkW
May 9, 2021 9:18 am

As are tree nuts.

Kemaris
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 3:11 pm

Funny you should mention that. If the GND were enacted (i.e., if it wasn’t going to become moot with the Second Democrat War, coming in April 2025), then some huge fraction of the US population would starve while the rest migrated to the interior in order to subsistence farm among the windmills. After all, with no fuel and no fertilizer, it’s going to take a lot more land to grow food. The only good aspect is that the survivors may be able to survive on all the bird and bat carcasses from the windmills while trying to endure to the first harvest.

Rich Davis
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 3:47 pm

In the particular case it seems that an eco-theologian is what you call a priest who substitutes climastrology for Catholic doctrine. Surprising that he’s not in Rome.

DMacKenzie
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 4:47 pm

The jobs involving manufacturing goods will all be in China. Elsewhere the competitiveness of business causes industry to provide goods at minimum cost, thus little profit and lowest possible labor content by using maximum automation, thus little that governments can impose taxes upon for their programs.
The future might involve government price setting simply to provide enough taxes to pay the basic minimum income to the unemployed half of the population which won’t be much more than the equivalent of today’s “welfare payments”. In other words, communist style central planning is attempted on one hand, combined with high taxation on anything adequately useful that people are willing to pay for. And if it doesn’t work, there will be even more demand for a higher basic income, which the government will authorize the central bank to lend to the municipalities, until money becomes worthless and the barter system is the only operating solution. BTW, how many of your neigbors have government jobs ? You are already paying their wages. Just with more AI, they won’t need to go to “work”.

David A
Reply to  DMacKenzie
May 8, 2021 7:14 pm

I agree that UBI will be a self fulfilling act, creating even less willing to find their niche.

I don’t agree that manufacturing must go to China. At least President Trump had already brought back over 650,000 manufacturing jobs. ( And many more to come, had he stayed in power) Greater automation does require fewer workers, and reduces the labor to revenue ratio, which increases the relative cost of shipping compared to labor. It is in a nations own best interest to have many key products produced within.

Fir the most part, political decisions have created the shortages that exist.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  DMacKenzie
May 8, 2021 7:43 pm

little that governments can impose taxes upon for their programs.

Corporate income taxes, with special levies for ‘excess’ profits.

David A
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 7:00 pm

“Nothing to be afraid of”

I agree. What developed is a service oriented society. People have endless desires, there is no shortage of work..

Two states just said they will no longer participate in Federal unemployment stimulus, as many many job offerings go unfulfilled.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 7:26 pm

MarkW

It wasn’t just automation that made things cheaper, and life better. Without fossil fuels, the automation wouldn’t have been possible.

I suspect that the demand for services from the 1st and 2nd oldest professions will keep the economy humming.

Bill Treuren
Reply to  MarkW
May 9, 2021 6:28 pm

It is just a part of all human development. Who doesn’t remember bank tellers there were tens of thousands where do they hide now.
I have a factory full of CNC machines are they robots, is a washing machine a robot. our juvenile image of a robot is all that allows these stories to be perpetuated.

David Kamakaris
May 8, 2021 2:29 pm

Learn to code is what Zhou Xiden told coal miners to do.

Reply to  David Kamakaris
May 8, 2021 3:18 pm

And President Xi is telling his people to mine coal as fast as you can … https://newtube.app/user/RAOB/kf3DIEm

David Kamakaris
Reply to  John Shewchuk
May 8, 2021 3:58 pm

“And President Xi is telling his people to mine coal as fast as you can …”

Now that makes sense.

dk_
Reply to  David Kamakaris
May 8, 2021 5:31 pm

Let us choose not to engage in an endless discussion on the differences between “tell,” “allow,” and “force.” A pseudo-socialist dictator really only needs the last one.

May 8, 2021 2:35 pm

Get creative and start a business. GET TO WORK !!! Do not expect to get paid for sitting on your but.

Richard Page
Reply to  Sid Abma
May 8, 2021 2:49 pm

Creativity, invention and entrepreneurism are areas where robots will be unable to compete with humans. No doubt there will be a shift away from blue collar manual work into white collar managerial and developmental work.

Thomas
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 3:08 pm

And art!

gbaikie
Reply to  Thomas
May 8, 2021 6:13 pm

If government buys art, it will be worse than the Govt buying solar panels- all we get is endless amounts of toxic waste.

Climate believer
Reply to  Thomas
May 9, 2021 12:23 am

Check out Generative Adversarial Networks.

An AI painting called “Edmond de Belamy” sold for $432,500.

AWG
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 4:18 pm

Contemplate how stupid the average person is, then consider that half the population is less intelligent than that one.

Many people struggle with knowing that the fuzzy part of the broom needs to be in contact with the floor. It is a chief reason why the military invented IQ testing, to find the minimum intelligence level in order to be taught to be a soldier.

A growing number of people have no marketable skills thanks to both the drug cartels and an “education” cartel that focuses on CRT rather than the three Reading, Writing and ‘rithmatics.

OTOH, I just drove by a Dairy Queen that is paying $15/hr starting wage to flip hamburgers. Considering OT, that is more money than I was earning at my first gig as a professional computer programmer

Richard Page
Reply to  AWG
May 8, 2021 7:01 pm

Some parts of that I agree with. There are well paid jobs that require little in the way of intellectual capacity – next time you see a footballer or a fashion model give an interview you may be reminded of that fact. Same for a whole load of these celebrities or reality tv stars – their only marketable skill appears to be looking attractive.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  AWG
May 8, 2021 7:52 pm

OTOH, I just drove by a Dairy Queen that is paying $15/hr starting wage to flip hamburgers.

But, they have to be able to clearly enunciate, “Would you like to have flies with that?”

My first professional job at Lockheed, as a junior engineer, I was paid less than $2 per hour. However, with inflation, that is now over $20 per hour.

dk_
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 8, 2021 9:11 pm

Milch cows being unsustainable, I believe that that chain will likely change their name soon. They may merely drop the Dairy, but Queen may be considered cis-normal, so I’ve got no guess as to what it may become. Closed, maybe?
All the burgers will be printed from soy, by then, and cooked with warm self congratulations.

Last edited 2 months ago by dk_
Drake
Reply to  AWG
May 8, 2021 7:55 pm

I would assume not when adjusted for inflation.

MarkW
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 5:04 pm

A science fiction book that I read many years ago, automation in the food service industry was wide spread, however many people were willing to pay more to be served by a human. It was considered high class.

I believe that within 20 years, animation will reach the point where it will be difficult to tell the difference between live action and animation. Digital voices will also be getting much better. There will no longer be a need to pay gross amounts to overgrown children who’s only skill is looking good while reading the lines someone else wrote.

Inexpensive animation packages will make it possible for hobbyists to make movies that will be technically equivalent to what we’ve seen over the last few years.

Recording technology is also coming down in price. To the point where “garage” bands are starting to get attention by putting recordings of themselves on YouTube.

Hopefully that will be the end of the age of the “entertainer” as social icons.

Drake
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 8:06 pm

We got a “free” trial of a movie channel. I looked through the available movies, all “woke” crap. Probably why it is free, they can’t sell it. It is not just the actors that are not needed, it is the current crop of writers and producers.

I watched some of Nomadland, what a piece of crap. Just film ANY regular campground host who doesn’t stay in one place too long and you would get better dialogue. And the “cinema” was crap, shaky cam that continuously cut off the tops of the actors heads. And it won an Academy award.

Did the producers get with the MSM to put the “Asians are being attacked” mantra in the news during the voting to help the director?

Just because you are a conspiracy theorist doesn’t mean it is not a conspiracy.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 7:47 pm

You could be the first to open a telephone sanitizing franchise, or become a marketing manager for the new replacement for paper money, tree leaves.

mcswelll
Reply to  Richard Page
May 8, 2021 9:01 pm

The real problem, IMO, is that not everyone is capable of doing useful white collar, managerial, or developmental work. And lots of those kinds of work are going away, too, I fear. How many secretaries or switchboard operators are there today? How many draftsmen? And no human labor replaced those job categories.

Some areas of white collar work will continue to expand for the foreseeable future (although I can’t seem to see very far…), but they will be far more technically demanding, and again: not everyone will be capable of training or re-training into such a technical job.

Rich Lambert
May 8, 2021 2:41 pm

And of course the climate visionaries will be the ones deciding what jobs are redundant, who gets paid, and what amount.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 8, 2021 3:01 pm

Correct Eric.

Global cooling, as we correctly predicted in 2002 – many more extreme cold events worldwide.
 
CLIMATE CHANGE, COVID-19, AND THE GREAT RESET
A CLIMATE, ENERGY AND COVID PRIMER FOR POLITICIANS AND MEDIA
By Allan M.R. MacRae, Published May 8, 2021 UPDATE 1e                      
Download the WORD file
https://thsresearch.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/climate-change-covid-19-and-the-great-reset-update-1e-readonly.docx

Scissor
Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
May 8, 2021 4:55 pm

Boulder, CO will likely see the record low temperature set for the date on Monday with 3 days of snow showers forecast for Sunday to Tuesday. It’s like back to 1979.

noaaprogrammer
Reply to  Scissor
May 8, 2021 6:07 pm

I worked for NOAA in Boulder, CO in the early 1970s, and occasionally it can snow there up to the first week of June. I’ve also seen several inches of hail in September in the Table-Mesa area where we lived.

Reply to  noaaprogrammer
May 8, 2021 10:02 pm

Not surprising – the world got colder from ~1940 to 1977. In 1977 the PDO went from negative to positive – the “Great Pacific Climate Shift”.
Snow is forecast for tomorrow (May 9) here in Calgary – not that unusual here.

Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
May 9, 2021 7:41 am

The prediction of solar activity has been fraught with uncertainty. A list of 45 scholars’ sunspot maxima predictions for SC24 ranged from a low of 50 to a high of 169 – vs an actual smoothed maximum of 81.8 – random number generators. Some say the Sun does not primarily drive climate, as if the quiet-Sun, very-cold Maunder and Dalton Minimums never existed.
 
In 2002, we published our prediction of global cooling, to start by 2020-2030 and in 2013 I re-calibrated for cooling to start by 2020 or sooner.. We nailed it. Demonstrable cooling started in 2019 with the huge crop failure across the Great Plains of North America. Many extreme-cold events have occurred in Winter 2020-2021.

Theodor Landscheidt’s famous 2003 global cooling prediction was the culmination of his earlier papers. Subsequent solar-driven global cooling predictions include V. V. Zharkova, S. J. Shepherd, E. Popova & S. I. Zharkov in 2015, and V.M. Velasco Herrera, W. Soon, & D.R. Legates in 2021.

Another global cooling prediction is from F. Vahrenholt, excerpted below.

PROF. FRITZ VAHRENHOLT: SOLAR-INDUCED COOLING *THIS DECADE* IS OUR ONLY HOPE AGAINST DANGEROUS CO2-REDUCING POLICIES
May 9, 2021 by Cap Allon
Wind and solar will not provide the necessary energy. And in any case, this is about the shutdown of gas and oil heating, the ban on gasoline and diesel cars, the shutdown of truck traffic, air traffic, and refineries. Late, very late, it will be recognized that the electrification of the heating, transport and industry sectors without gas, without the CO2 capture that is prohibited in Germany, without the nuclear energy that is prohibited in Germany, cannot be achieved. The green program — that will fail grandly.
 
However, Vahrenholt remains confident in his predictions of a cooling planet, and sees this upcoming solar-induced reduction in terrestrial temperatures as our only hope against such poverty-inducing policies.
 
But, of course, global cooling will deliver immense suffering all of its own.
 
‘Rock and a hard place’ comes to mind.
 
A total economic collapse is looming, one way or another — prepare now.

Rusty
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 8, 2021 3:53 pm

Soylent Green.

Drake
Reply to  Rusty
May 8, 2021 8:07 pm

Funny how he had the color right!

mikee
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 8, 2021 6:58 pm

Just call it communism!

dk_
Reply to  Eric Worrall
May 8, 2021 7:10 pm

Eric: In my book a Soylent Green reference gets two thumbs up if deliberate, three if accidental. I’ll trust you, which was it?

Reply to  Rich Lambert
May 8, 2021 3:20 pm

This climate visionary has poor vision …

07.jpg
Scissor
Reply to  John Shewchuk
May 8, 2021 4:56 pm

Doh

Abolition Man
Reply to  John Shewchuk
May 8, 2021 5:35 pm

What a visionary! Apparently he couldn’t even see the graph from the paper he co-authored in 2008 showing the global temperature anomaly dropping rapidly since the Eocene Thermal Maximum! Fifty million years of dropping temps and he wants us to believe this modern warming is anything other than beneficial!
What’s the best way to describe a liar and a fraud? Compare them to Jimmy Hansen or Mickey Mann!

John
May 8, 2021 2:51 pm

We are almost there anyways where 50% of our population would rather live off government benefits than work. I include those that do work but are inefficient and lazy. I churn through workers who are late, sick, slow, want to go home early, have numerous deaths in their family (wondering whose left) etc… This generation of uneducated video game junkies and drug addicts will be our downfall. No wonder we allow so many illegals in, many want the opportunity to work. My best contractors are Hispanic who speak little English but work like banshees in comparison.

MarkW
Reply to  John
May 8, 2021 5:06 pm

I’ve been reading of reports of restaurants who are trying to re-open, but are having trouble getting workers to come back to work. Seems the government benefits in the era of COVID are as good as what they were making when they were working.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 7:16 pm

I man our secondary appliance showroom which is open from 10-2 on Saturdays. It is in a small plaza right next to a Dunkin Donuts. About a month ago, the Dunkin Donuts stopped opening their lobby until 11:00 AM They couldn’t get enough employees to handle the morning walk in crowd. So until 11:00 AM you must use the drive thru to get any service.

Last edited 2 months ago by Tom in Florida
Drake
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 8:15 pm

Talked to a waiter at a BJs, asked how the reopening and increase in allowed occupancy was going. We are in the Communist State of Nevada and are just getting up to speed. He said the management can’t get many to come back. He had gotten a job installing low voltage in construction during the closure and was only working because he was buying a house and wanted the long work history there for his mortgage application. They were only 50% open and he didn’t think they would have the workers for 100%.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  John
May 9, 2021 5:19 am

I criticized Americans for sitting at home collecting unemployment insurance rather than going back to work and I called them “lazy”.

But after thinking about it for a while, not all of them may be lazy. If I were a parent of children who were forced to stay at home because their schools are closed, then I would stay home with the children and collect unemployment for as long as the schools were closed.

So I might have been too harsh in the past.

Note to Kip and rah:

A follow-up on that company that was offering trucking jobs for $14,000 per week had a catch to it. You had to have your own truck! 🙂

John Endicott
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2021 8:23 am

Indeed Tom, for many it wasn’t so much a matter of laziness as a rational decision. If not working pays more than working, why choose the later when you can choose the former and do something else with the 8+ hours/day you use to spend commuting & working. And if you have children that can’t go to school, that something else includes looking after the little ones and helping them with their education.

Kevin S
May 8, 2021 3:07 pm

Luddites had similar views. Automation was going to put everyone out of work. Well we can’t automate everything and it would e worth doing that. Unless you artificially require higher raises for unskilled workers. Demanding $15 for flipping burgers has already made some who will never get another job. Because they refuse to learn a skill or rendered themselves incapable of

BCBill
Reply to  Kevin S
May 8, 2021 6:50 pm

The Luddites were not against technology, they were against the deskilling of the work force. With industrialization a person who could formerly build a carriage became bolt tightener iand so became a disposable worker without the skill to justify a living wage. Large industry didn’t develop technology or introduce it any faster than small family factories. The industrial revolution was a conflict over control of resources between large influential entities who controlled government and small unorganised producers. History was rewritten to characterise the losing side as anti-technology as that made a cozier tale than the true story that the natural ruling class who had formerly used hired thugs to confiscate peasants crops discovered that rather than paying exorbitant wages to thugs, it was ever so more effective to control the means of production and use wage slavery to maintain the natural social order.

Kazinski
Reply to  BCBill
May 8, 2021 9:23 pm

Its all about productivity. You dont see the advantage of being able to turn out 100 times the fabric with lower skilled workers?

People used to have 2 or at most 3 changes of clothes and it cost them at least weeks worth of wages. Now they can buy 10 times as much clothes and not have to work as long to save the money.

BCBill
Reply to  Kazinski
May 9, 2021 11:23 am

As I said, technologically driven productivity was increasing with or without concentration of the means of production into large scale industrial monopolies. The question was never about improvements to productivity but whether the means of production should be limited to a small number of large entities with all the associated problems that implies for the unfettered functioning of the market place.

MarkW
Reply to  BCBill
May 9, 2021 6:54 am

Wage slavery has always been one of the favorite myths of the left. It beats having to actually know something about economics.
Individuals have always been paid based on their marginal productivity.
Far from lowering wages, productivity has always increased wages.

Please put down your copy of the Communist Manifesto and pick up anything by Friedman or Sowell.

BCBill
Reply to  MarkW
May 9, 2021 11:52 am

I wish I could accuse you of committing a logical fallacy but your comment is just a silly assumption without pretense to logic. I don’t normally justify myself to rude people but you are completely wrong about me. I despise Marxists and all their iterations. It is a perfectly legitimate discussion for free marketers to contemplate the means to limit the power of monopolies as evidenced by that great Marxist, Adam Smith, “To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers…The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.“ Since we are making silly assumptions, I am going to suggest that you are clearly management material, by which I mean somebody who has never invested the thousands of hours that it takes to develop a skill but rather you studied the Father Guido Sarducci five minute MBA which qualifies you to make profound statements on all economic matters.

May 8, 2021 3:16 pm

Here’s one of my favorite climate visionaries …

05.jpg
Kazinski
Reply to  John Shewchuk
May 8, 2021 9:25 pm

If we put him in charge of the economy he would have been right.

Chris Hanley
May 8, 2021 3:26 pm

… mass unemployment coming down the line in the near future as millions of jobs are displaced by robots, artificial intelligence or AI, and new technologies …

I think we’ve heard it all before.

May 8, 2021 3:33 pm

An early proponent of universal basic income, under the name of negative income tax, was President Nixon, with his Family Assistance Plan. He was not a greenie. He got it from Milton Friedman.

dk_
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 4:26 pm

Except Friedman wasn’t suggesting a permanent program for people to not work, it was intended as a work-retraining program to help individuals to get past temporary displacement. He was opposed to welfare, which is now some places shown to be the real cause, if any, of systematic racism. UBI, AKA negative income tax, is free bubbleup and rainbow stew from the 30’s. Suitable as campaign material for the ignorant and weak minded, of which there is no shortage, now as then.
Friedman was never in favor of the client state, or of printing money to get out of cash flow problems.
Free to Choose videos are available on Amazon. Great website at https://www.freetochoosenetwork.org. If you won’t listen to Friedman straight, then maybe you can learn from some of his successors. Two of Friedman’s students were the late Walter Williams, and Thomas Sowell. Look at almost anything by Johan Norberg. Try Bjorn Lomborg on how to really fix economy and climate. Five minutes of reading, watching, or listening to any of those will give you a pretty good idea that UBI is garbage.
And do not neglect Shelby Steele, on Amazon, or at Hoover. This man, and his son, Eli, are inspirational. “What Killed Michael Brown” should be required viewing, IMO, in every high school and college.

Last edited 2 months ago by dk_
Rud Istvan
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 5:03 pm

Nick, you made an assertion. Now prove it with references beyond Wiki. I almost PhD’d in econ (long story about about an already accepted for PhD senior college thesis, and the opportunity costs of Harvard Econ PhD or Harvard joint program JD/MBA—the latter has a higher future value). Now prove it with references to your assertion, because I recall none of it from then or later.
And, your referenced Wiki negative tax is just a graduated subsidy proposal no different than food stamps, not some fixed universal income guarantee.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 5:16 pm

OK Rud, here, from the Nixon Foundation, you can watch the man himself proposing it, August 8 1969. Text is here. A quote:

“What I am proposing is that the Federal Government build a foundation under the income of every American family with dependent children that cannot care for itself–and wherever in America that family may live.

For a family of four now on welfare, with no outside income, the basic Federal payment would be $1,600 a year. States could add to that amount and most States would add to it. In no case would anyone’s present level of benefits be lowered. At the same time, this foundation would be one on which the family itself could build. Outside earnings would be encouraged, not discouraged. The new worker could keep the first $60 a month of outside earnings with no reduction in his benefits; and beyond that, his benefits would be reduced by only 50 cents for each dollar earned.”

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Stokes
Rud Istvan
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 5:28 pm

Nick, the video fails to address my point to you. What, you think I had not seen it before addressing your comment?

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 8, 2021 5:40 pm

Rud, let me just emphasise points from that quote of Nixon:
“For a family of four now on welfare, with no outside income, the basic Federal payment would be $1,600 a year.”
“Outside earnings would be encouraged, not discouraged.”
How is this not a basic income?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 8:14 pm

How is this not a basic income?

I got drafted in 1966. The previous year I had paid $1,800 in income taxes. The first year in the Army I earned about $1,700. However, the Army was feeding and clothing me, and giving me housing and providing transportation, and giving me medical coverage. There is nothing basic about $1,600 per year.

Last edited 2 months ago by Clyde Spencer
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 9, 2021 5:26 am

Private pay doesn’t go too far, does it, Clyde. 🙂

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 9:23 am

No, it didn’t. However, the point being is that $1,600 per year, even back then, wasn’t a basic level of support because one still needed money to cover all the rest of the things that the military provided.

Drake
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 8:32 pm

The key, Nick, is that it is not Universal Basic Income. Read your quote. It was only for families with dependent children.

Much like WIC, which when started under Roosevelt stood for WIDOWS infants and children but now stands for women infants and children since Johnson’s great society.

UBI is to give to EVERYONE, except for the actual producers, of course.

John Endicott
Reply to  Drake
May 12, 2021 8:32 am

not just families with dependent children but also “that cannot care for itself” also notice the “In no case would anyone’s present level of benefits be lowered.”. It wasn’t an UBI proposal, it was a restructuring of welfare proposal.

David A
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 7:28 pm

Nick says, “An early proponent of universal basic income, under the name of negative income tax, was President Nixon, with his Family Assistance Plan. He was not a greenie. He got it from Milton Friedman”

Milton Friedman says, “For a family of four NOW on welfare…”

Nick thinks restructuring welfare for the unemployed is UBI. It’s not. DJ’s comment was correct, and Nick should study it.

Last edited 2 months ago by David A
Reply to  David A
May 8, 2021 8:48 pm

The family on welfare was quoted as an example. He goes on to give another example
“By the same token, a family head already employed at low wages could get a family assistance supplement; those who work would no longer be discriminated against. For example, a family of five in which the father earns $2,000 a year-which is the hard fact of life for many families in America today–would get family assistance payments of $1,260, so that they would have a total income of $3,260. A family of seven earning $3,000 a year would have its income raised to $4,360.”

Last edited 2 months ago by Nick Stokes
Tim Gorman
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 9, 2021 8:25 am

family assistance payments”

Again, you are talking about welfare based on the number of children, not an UBI.

Learn the difference.

David A
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 11, 2021 3:03 am

Tim is exactly correct. The entire point was to avoid “wellfare cliffs”
where people coming off of Wellfare and accepting work suddenly had reduced income.

This has been long discussed, and N.S. is simply unaware, and imputing a false claim of M.F. supporting UBI.

A recent ZH article explains “Wellfare cliffs”

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/shocking-chart-shows-most-workers-now-make-more-unemployment-their-jobs

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
May 8, 2021 5:08 pm

Friedman was proposing the negative income tax as a replacement for welfare, not as a justification for it.

Once you make the decision that you are going to pay people to not work, the next question is how to do that efficiently.

Nick, do you ever tell the whole story about anything?

dk_
Reply to  MarkW
May 8, 2021 5:41 pm

“proposing the negative income tax as a replacement for welfare”
True, my bad. However, negative income tax, by the 1980s had morphed into something pretty close to the UBI we have today, and was intended as temporary assistance and to coincide with relocation. It wasn’t originally intended as a public housing+welfare+free medical forever program, that stacked up welfare clients in failed neighborhoods, which is what the great society programs created.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  dk_
May 8, 2021 7:19 pm

And we have the Earned Income Credit. Tax “refund” for those who paid no tax.

David A
Reply to  dk_
May 8, 2021 7:31 pm

That us what MF saw, and wanted to circumvent. Your comment was correct. Restructuring welfare is not UBI.

John Endicott
Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2021 8:36 am

Nick, do you ever tell the whole story about anything?

Based on every post of his I’ve ever read, the answer to that question is a resounding NO!

AWG
May 8, 2021 4:08 pm

This is absolutely pig ignorant of history and completely opposite of reality.

Of of many reasons why Rome and other civilizations failed to use technology and labor saving devices is because labor was so plentiful. After the Black Plague that swept the globe and wiped out 10-50% of the population, serfs and other laborers were in great demand and they demanded higher wages. The land owners then sought technology and mechanization to augment physical labor.

Mechanization requires energy. The whole point and purpose of the Green New Deal ( neo-marxism) is to make energy, expensive, unreliable and out-of-reach for billions of people.

Robots require great levels of resources to create, operate, repair and discard. The type of robot changes as demands change. Having a five-axis milling capability isn’t required for every application, thus efficient designs are often purpose built, and once the purpose is no longer necessary, becomes too unreliable, or costs too much to operate and maintain compared to a more specialized and updated robot, the robot is decommissioned.

Humans flourish with cheap and plentiful energy, society perishes and suffers without.
Green Energy requires brute physical human labor as a substitute for the energy inputs required to mechanize.

TonyG
Reply to  AWG
May 10, 2021 11:04 am

“This is absolutely pig ignorant of history and completely opposite of reality.”

Which is pretty much the norm these days.

Waza
May 8, 2021 4:56 pm

Countries such as China, India, Pakistan, Iran and North Korea have:
A. Poor people
B. Nuclear weapons programs.

A universal wage for A paid by developed countries ( me through my tax dollars) to the above countries allow them to spend more on B.

dk_
Reply to  Waza
May 8, 2021 5:36 pm

India is in the balance, but after many years leaning toward one socialist/fascist form or another may possibly be tipping toward something a little more oriented to free enterprise, and mostly in response to those quoted above who are their neighbors.

Drake
Reply to  Waza
May 8, 2021 8:45 pm

China, India and Pakistan HAVE their bombs, How much are they spending NOW on their programs?

Regardless, I have no interest in giving anyone who will not work any of my hard earned resources, in the US or elsewhere. But, like the song, if you’ve got nothing, you’ve got nothing to lose. I’ve got something, and I am sure OBiden and his minions are trying to figure a way to get more of it.

My IRA is scaring the hell out of me, I don’t know if I should start taking it out ASAP to get it out of the reach of the government. I am thinking of giving the feds 20 to 40% now to stash what is left so they can’t take 100% later. Buy something I can bury somewhere.

John Endicott
Reply to  Drake
May 12, 2021 8:39 am

China spends quite a bit on their military in general. No doubt some sizeable portion of that goes towards it’s nuclear capabilities.

Abolition Man
May 8, 2021 5:50 pm

The only thing worse for a human being than being told you’re not needed in society, is telling or teaching them that they are a helpless victim! There is no functional and effective philosophy that teaches such crap!
A society of entrepreneurs, artisans and artists would be almost idyllic, but we will never achieve it as long as our education systems indoctrinate instead of educate! The early 20th Century Progressive move to make workers only educated enough to do their jobs and pay their taxes is reaching it’s logical conclusion; mind numb worker drones replaced by soulless machines!

Stevek
May 8, 2021 6:01 pm

There has already been huge amounts of automation but pre Covid employment was at record lows. Robots and computers need humans to fix them, use them, get data for them etc.

Last edited 2 months ago by Stevek
Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Stevek
May 8, 2021 8:19 pm

Did you mean to say “pre Covid unemployment?”

H B
May 8, 2021 6:23 pm

The lack of electricity will fix the robots and AI thing as will intermittent electricity

BCBill
May 8, 2021 7:08 pm

Canada has already designed the future non-workers paradise. Mild drugs are readily available to lower ambition, intelligence and drive. Electronic game playing is mandatory for all under employed males to provide the sensation of action while accomplishing absolutely nothing. Owning of weapons is strictly controlled. UBI has started in Canada and is being enhanced. Now there is nothing to fear from young men unhappy with their lot in life. They have been neutralised.

DMacKenzie
Reply to  BCBill
May 9, 2021 6:05 pm

And Canada is passing social media control legislation so that happiness propaganda can be distributed to those non-workers.

Kazinski
May 8, 2021 8:56 pm

Universal Basic income as a Climate Change mitigation strategy is a counterproductive strategy. It will allow displaced workers to keep consuming, which is the root of the problem in the first place.

I know forced starvation sounds ugly, but we need to have the courage of Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot if we are going to make the world a better place. I know socialism has failed in the past, specifically its spread poverty without reducing carbon outputs, but we know capitalism just leads to higher and higher levels of consumption, despite reducing the rate of population growth, and making food production more efficient and using less land. But we can build a new socialism to spread poverty and do it with low, or zero levels of carbon pollution.

Scott
Reply to  Kazinski
May 8, 2021 9:26 pm

You first

Lrp
Reply to  Kazinski
May 8, 2021 9:34 pm

You forgot the sarc tag. Also, 1st of April is way behind us.

dk_
Reply to  Kazinski
May 8, 2021 10:48 pm

Kazinski, you really had me goin’ with the whole courage of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot thing. A joker! But the real punchline “we know capitalism just leads to higher and higher levels of consumption” I just broke out giggling.
We all know that “capitalism” was just Marx’ word for why he couldn’t keep a job and wasn’t paid his allowance. Murderous incompetence couldn’t have had anything at all to do with it.

Peta of Newark
May 8, 2021 10:12 pm

Methinks this guy’s Daily Bread ## has been infected with Ergot
Or has the Communion Wine ** been strengthened with a splash of Moonshine

(See the words ‘Lysergic Acids’ in that link. haha. Shine on you crazy diamond, in the sky)

And, should anyone venture off to the National Catholic Reporter )as linked) from where this garbage originated, your screen is dominated by a huuuuge advert Begging For Money.

While The Catholic Church has got to be one of the richest and most powerful organisations there ever was, the very sort of things they’re railing about.

Three options there….

  1. He is actually miles high on an LSD mimic
  2. He is chronically depressed, anxious, lonely and genuinely need of help
  3. (are there printable words…..)

## ** See where The Rot (of human minds & bodies) started and who/what perpetuates at least some of it?
Yes Father Friar, I’m looking at you.
See how the Staff/Stuff of Life, what you are given at Holy Communion, got mangled by necessity and a very real threat of starvation, from:

  • Meat and Saturated-Fat
  • —–into—-
  • Sugar (cooked starch) and Booze

For Father Friar, Option 2 above would certainly apply if he, in the company of billions of other people, was/were/are trying to exist on a diet of: Sugar & Booze.

Erhlich was 1,968 years late with his prediction. What took him so long?
Please don’t tell me he was drunk all that time

Last edited 2 months ago by Peta of Newark
Gary Pearse
May 8, 2021 10:30 pm

An eco-thologian!! This must nbe a slow news day

Patrick MJD
May 8, 2021 10:53 pm

My sister, in the UK, lost her job directly due to the economic downturn when BoJo shut the country down and forced businesses and industry to close during the COVID-19 sc@mdemic. She is on universal credit now, some still call it welfare, which is exactly what it is.

Lark
May 8, 2021 11:15 pm

Mechanization has always led to more and better jobs. The only way Socialists can change that is to regulate the new jobs away.

A UBI is desired by Socialists in order to make people dependent on government, so that when the Socialists therein seize power and impoverish the country, the welfarists will support them.

For Socialists, every problem requires more-powerful government and less-powerful citizens, which is why their business model consists of making and worsening problems. The quoted author calls himself a religious environmental ethicist, so we know what he means to destroy in order to immanentize the eschaton.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Lark
May 9, 2021 9:31 am

Mechanization has always led to more and better jobs.

That was true when the USA did a lot of manufacturing. What kind of new jobs will produce something that the Chinese will exchange manufactured goods for?

Vincent Causey
May 9, 2021 12:40 am

AI is just as likely to cull information intensive jobs as manual jobs, and probably more so. The fact that doctors in the UK are now holding virtual surgeries shows that they can be replaced with even earlier generation AI. Accountants can be replaced but probably not bookkeepers who need to manually handle receipts to get them into the system if the business owners are too busy to do it. Most lawyers can go. Then there are the engineers, architects. But what about plumbers, electricians and other building trades? I don’t think so. Yet for most, it is a truly dismal outlook and I am deeply worried about our young generation.

Aelfrith
May 9, 2021 1:15 am

Here in the UK the response of many people who have found themselves out of work through Covid-19 lockdowns has been to leverage what they could do to create on-line businesses. Earlier this week I was talking to one woman who is now running an on-line cooking school, another who is setting up a Virtual PA who specialises in helping small builders deal with their paperwork.

Clearly the writer fails to understand how people who have choices react to natural disaster and rebuild after the event.

fretslider
May 9, 2021 1:23 am

“ But while jobs will be lost, there will still be plenty of work”

Planting trees…

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  fretslider
May 9, 2021 9:33 am

Recycling metal, paper, and plastic, which is still labor intensive.

Ed Zuiderwijk
May 9, 2021 2:40 am

Nothing ethical about proposed measures that are guaranteed to kill millions and empoverish many more.

Mark - Helsinki
May 9, 2021 3:12 am

Right now there are millions of people who dont want to go back to work, because they get paid same or more then when they worked during the pandemic.

UBI is not only economy destroying, making tax payers pay for millions of loafers. It is people destroying. Free money for doing nothing to 18 year olds will absolutely destroy most of them.

Why look for a job? why start up a small business, just have 4 5 or 6 kids, they’ll bring in a combined fortune when they reach UBI age, your retirement fund 😀

Climate doomers really like UBI, because most climate doomers dont have real jobs, if they have jobs at all, see Extinction rebellion for example, mostly jobless wonders

We had a UBI trial thing here, and lets just say that UBI will not be coming to Finland.

Utterly disgusting that tax payers would have to pay people who wont work, and fund the government too?!

Imagine what UBI would do to tax rates for the middle class. I could also see about at least 1bn people around the world desperate to get into the US also, for that UBI

Last edited 2 months ago by Mark - Helsinki
George V
May 9, 2021 4:22 am

Ms. Mac Donald and others of her ilk are just recycling old literature. See Kurt Vonnegut’s “Player Piano” and Philip Jose Farmer’s “Riders of the Purple Wage”, to mention just two.

Tom Abbott
May 9, 2021 5:34 am

From the article: “He notes how after a few weeks of economic shutdown at the start of the lockdown, large rallies took place in some U.S. cities, with many of the participants carrying arms and demanding that the economy be opened up to allow them back to work.”

I think the author has completely misunderstood this. The riots in U.S. streets were not about a lack of jobs, but about social/political/destroy-the-United States, issues.

Last edited 2 months ago by Tom Abbott
Sara
May 9, 2021 7:39 am

Interesting, but not all that far-fetched.
Let’s say you go to the drugstore for some small thing, e.g., cough drops and nose rags – er, tissues! – and you haven’t been around automatons all that much, because you’re a farmer…. but you knew automation at The Store was coming, because if you get groceries, you do your own checkouts like they do NOW at Walmart.
And the pleasant Smiling Young Thing behind the checkout counter engages you with a little light conversation, totals up your purchases, bags them for you, and says pleasantly “Have a nice day.”
She seems nice, doesn’t she? Yeah, but she never leaves the checkout spot, she’s always pleasant (and probably blandly cute, too) and can get anything you couldn’t find on the shelves by punching in a few codes, and woops!! here come the missing cough drops. Shelf hadn’t been restocked.
She’s a robot, and anything below the countertop level is wheels and gears. And she works 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, with the only expense being downtime for maintenance and program updates.
Or let’s say that you’re at the local spaceport in Mannheim (in Germany), which used to be an airport, long, long ago, and your guide is another two-legged automaton/robot/whatever (maybe even R2D47A, since R2D2 and R2D3 are busy making movies), and when you post your order for mandarin beef from the Bok Choy booth across the (enormous) space, it’s delivered right by rolling bot to you where you’re waiting for your shuttle flight from Mannheim Spaceport to the Rockford, IL Spaceport.
Two-legged robots are in development now, as are 4-leggers, plenty of videos online for all of these things. I used to think it was sci-fi stuff if some adventuresome space jockey in the comic books got himself a robot horse to put together and ride, but the reality is that this stuff is already coming your way.

Tim Gorman
May 9, 2021 8:34 am

With increased use of AI and automation, many people will not be able to find paid work in areas such as retailing, caring roles, agriculture and financial services.”

Really? An AI is going to help you pick out clothes in a retail environment? Automation is going to help you try on clothes to see if they fit? An AI and automation is going to take care of your elderly mother in a nursing home? And an AI and automation is going to wash the dairy cows off to maintain sanitary conditions before they are let into the milking facility? An AI and automation is going to chase down pigs in a pen and hold them down while the vet castrates them? And an AI and automation is going to decide what investments you should have in your portfolio?

Once again, we see prognostications from a so-called “expert” who actually knows nothing about what they are talking about!

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 9, 2021 9:39 am

Automation is going to help you try on clothes to see if they fit?



I can’t remember the last time the salesgirl came into the changing room to help me out. 🙂

Amazon and even Big Box retail stores sell a lot of clothes over the internet. I don’t see any problem building something like an automated car wash to handle the cows. I also don’t see any real technical obstacles to automating pig or cow castration.

I thought that day traders, investors, and stockbrokers already depended heavily on computers and programs to help them decide where to move their money.

Last edited 2 months ago by Clyde Spencer
Tim Gorman
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
May 9, 2021 1:48 pm

Clyde,

If you want to buy your clothes online or at a Big Box store then go right ahead. Maybe I’m unique but they hardly ever fit me. Same for ordering over the internet.

A good retail sales clerk can look at your body type and suggest something that *fits*, something you won’t take to Goodwill after wearing it to work once.

Automated cattle washers are like automated car washers, they very seldom do a good job on the undercarriage – which is where the sanitary conditions are the prime concern.

You’ve never had to chase a 100lb pig around a pen and hold it upside down for the vet. You simply can’t automate that, let alone automate reaching into the bag and cutting the testicles out. You don’t want to mangle the darn pig and its not like unscrewing a nut off a bolt, there is no standardized arrangement!

My advisor doesn’t depend on computers other than to track selling prices. She spends a *lot* of time doing company research, sector research, and economic research. From this she can match choices up with my financial goals, she almost interviews me at each meeting like a psychiatrist would in order to determine what I want and need. I invest for the long term. We don’t do short term stuff which is what you typically find day traders and stock brokers doing. The trading fees those people charge eat up any profit you might make pretty darn quickly.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Tim Gorman
May 11, 2021 1:35 pm

Tim,
You said, “Automated cattle washers are like automated car washers, they very seldom do a good job on the undercarriage – which is where the sanitary conditions are the prime concern.”

But, washing a car is largely about cosmetics. Nobody cares what the underside looks like because nobody ever sees it. On the other hand, washing the cow is about sanitation, and the underside is arguably the most important. That has to go in the design specifications.

BTW, I rarely buy clothes online either, unless fit is unimportant like with a bathrobe, or I’m buying something that is pretty standard like Levis. But even so, with the exception of buying custom-made or tailored clothes, the sales ‘clerkettes’ are rarely of any use in buying mass-produced clothes. So, those jobs can go away.

Kevin Stall
May 9, 2021 1:35 pm

Then workers had better not price themselves out of work. The problem isn’t automation. It’s that China has locked up the rare earth minerals needed and produce the items cheaper than the West. Germany has lost half of their green jobs to China.

paul courtney
May 9, 2021 3:50 pm

Words fail me, so comforted to know our best and brightest are looking at the future for us all! They have made a deep study of all previous human organizations (actually, they skipped all that boring stuff) and all prior governments that paid basic income for life to all lasted forever. Like the…uh…um……..well, if we just follow what they say, it’ll work. If you don’t agree, you obviously didn’t go to Harvard, and you don’t count.

Lurker Pete
May 10, 2021 4:13 am

UBI will be the ‘solution’ to a problem as yet undefined.

Due to unprecidented debasement in ‘reserve currencies’ the global financial system is on life support, it will need another reset (or Great Reset).

By mid decade central banks will be rolling out digital currency (private ledger crypto), to enable this, the old system will have to crash and burn, probably why Time Magazine, on it’s 1988 cover, showed a world currency coin dated 2018 called the Phoenix
https://lonestarwhitehouse.blogspot.com/2014/02/major-global-currency-resetchange-not.html

The Global central bankster class will want to retain their monopoly on printing money from thin air, so they will have a plan to blame the sytem failure on something else, something Klaus Schwab calls a “Cyber pandemic” (they’re actually practicing, see Cyber Polygon).

With the financial systems shut down, the result of the world moving towards a cashless society (in ‘lockstep’) will come to the fore, and rapidly lead to societal breakdown as no cash is available. Don’t worry too much, it won’t last long enough for the castle walls surrounding ivory towers to be breached.

With growing lawlessness, lengthly food lines, and furrowed brows on TV News presenters, a ‘solution’ will be rolled out.

The ‘solution’ will be UBI in new digital currency, the various digital vaccination passport platforms are a turnkey solution for digital wallets already, we’ll need biometic ID to conduct business, or access the internet (for security, can’t have anoymous hackers who can bring down a system roaming the new internet) and to top it off maybe it will come with a social credit score, for then, the foundation for a Totalitarian Technocracy would be complete.

Andy Pattullo
May 10, 2021 7:38 am

Being spectacularly wrong about the future is a game the whole family can play.

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