Grid Stability Basics

Guest post by Rud Istvan

Charles asked whether I would critique this new nonsense. Sure, why not.

The highlighted ‘sciency’ article purports to create an ‘open source’ grid data resource using 17 ‘synchronous grid’ European regions to design and test how “that will help develop new power systems capable of meeting changing demands, such as the move towards renewable energy sources.” NOPE, this won’t help at all.

The body of this silly paper found observationally lower grid frequency variations in larger ‘isolated’ European subgrids!  Of course larger grids have less frequency variation— something trivially true and known for many decades. The reasons are intuitive and simple. Larger grids by definition have more generation feeding the grid, so more grid inertia, and at the same time less ‘instantaneous load variation’ by simple virtue of the statistical law of large numbers.

Grid inertia is just the frequency stabilization that comes from the kinetic energy of large rotating generator masses. As grid load ‘instantly’ increases, the frequency sags and the generator wants to slow down. But by slowing, it also ‘instantly’ injects some of its rotational kinetic energy until the driving source (steam, or natural gas in CCGT) can be turned up a bit to compensate.

CCGT is particularly good at this. It runs about 61% efficient at full load, 60% efficient at 80% load, and still 59% efficient at just 40% load. The gas turbine power reaction time is literally about a second no different than a jet engine.

None of this ‘open source data resource’ helps ‘the move to renewables’. Basic grid electrical engineering (EE) is simple and inescapable concerning renewables— they are uneconomic (investment always falls when subsidies dry up), intermittent (requiring underutilized backup generation), and provide no grid inertia (which is automatic with big fossil fuel fired generators). ALL BAD.

Irsching Bavaria‘s about 10 year old CCGT units 4 (375MW) and 5 (860MW) illustrate the problems that intermittent renewables lacking grid inertia create for any grid. The owner wants to take them out of service because very unprofitable when run mainly as wind backup rather than grid load. The German government refuses to make up the difference, yet also refuses to let them shut down.

In the bigger German renewable picture, northern Germany exports surplus wind power to Norway as essentially a giveaway. That lets Norway throttle back its hydro. Then, when Germany needs power because wind is insufficient, Norway spools up its hydropower and sells it to Germany at exorbitant rates. To make matters worse, the German NIMBY crowd won’t let the utilities install more much needed North-South German transmission interconnect ‘eyesores’—despite wind turbines that are bigger and uglier.

A small amount of renewables in a large stable grid presents no problems–and no need for this new study. The backup capacity (spinning reserve) and grid inertia are already there. But as renewable penetration grows as a proportion of any stable ‘synchronous’ grid, these issues grow and compound. Depending on grid details (like how much flexible hydro), renewable penetration above about 8-10% ALWAYS creates extra costs and stability problems.  Alternating current grid engineering has been known now for well over 100 years, and nothing ‘new’ can change the established maths, physics, and electrical engineering (EE).

There is also some ‘basic EE stuff’ this new ‘open source data resource’ ignored.

First, their ‘new’ grid frequency data is almost always available from the utilities (grid operators), since required to manage the grid. It is captured both at the generating plants and at the transmission to distribution substations. Perhaps they should have just asked for the utility data rather than gathering their own.

Second, their super duper ‘proprietary’ grid frequency detectors for capturing their new open source data can be purchased almost anywhere. Such detectors are a common electrician’s tool. A very high-end multipurpose ‘pocket’ unit is the Extech PQ3450 power quality analyzer, pictured.

Third, their finding that grid frequency sags when demand exceeds supply and rises when supply exceeds demand has been known since Tesla first envisioned AC generation by using complex numbers (a+bi). The US is designed to be a stable 60 Hertz, EU 50 Hertz. Because electric clocks depend on grid frequency,  ‘stable’ is about plus/minus 0.2Hz in the US.

Just for fun (because the above is all well trod ground at WUWT and Climate Etc), we also provide a simple math/science fun challenge to those at WUWT unfamiliar with AC electrical stuff. (Thanks to a physics book full of hundreds of such challenges, sadly in Chicago rather than Fort Lauderdale, which I half reconstructed from memory and half from Google ‘facts’). It is about right.

Imagine a high voltage AC transmission line between Chicago and New York. (Hint: the distance does not matter much for this challenge, voltage does some, but is always ‘high’.)  The challenge: how far does a single electron charge travel during its journey along this transmission line? Choices:

  1. Kilometers
  2. Meters
  3. Centimeters

The speed of light (aka electromagnetic radiation) is about 299792458 meters/second in a vacuum. But ‘electromagnetic force (emf) wave guide’ wires are definitely not vacuum; their metals have electrical resistance (technically grid AC impedance, a combination of circuit resistance and reactance). Although electrons pushed along by emf have essentially no mass, they still slow down lots in metals.

Skipping a bit of complex math explaining very simple physics, the reason you buy ‘fat’ DC audio cables with gold terminals is simple: DC current flows across the entire conductor cross section fairly uniformly. A fatter cable has uniformly less cross sectional resistance (DC speaker output is analog), and gold terminals lower connection resistance further since gold doesn’t corrode. The result is truer high frequency pitch amplitudes. As a side factoid, this same physics is why ‘fat’ high voltage DC transmission lines are preferred for long grid distances, like the Germany to Norway undersea interconnects mentioned above.

The ‘fat’ AC cable answer is different. AC current has a conductor skin effect. Unlike DC current, AC current travels mainly in an annular ‘skin’ ring whose thickness depends on frequency (higherèthinner) thanks to interesting AC consequences of Maxwell’s equations as explained by Feynman’s ‘Lectures on Physics’ V. 2 chapter 32, ’skin effect’. In a ‘pure’ copper conductor, that annular skin travel (the center of the conductor essentially carries no AC current) is only about 3.2 meters per second. The much more common (cheaper, lighter) aluminum HV transmission conductor is only about 61% of copper. So in aluminum high voltage transmission lines electrons travel at best about (3.2m/s*0.61) ~1.95 m/s ignoring skin oxidation.

 AC is a sine wave varying from 0 to plus emf to 0 to minus emf to 0 at x times a second, (US 60Hz, EU 50Hz). One cycle is from zero voltage to max emf to zero to opposite polarity max emf back to zero. The emf back and forth is a nominal US 120 peaks/second, 60 times in each direction. (Side note: unlike most DC circuits, AC emf is related to, but not the same as, voltage.) For simplicity imagine this AC challenge as simply digital rather than sine wave (all on or all off emf rather than a varying emf sine wave), thereby removing any need for the correct calculus challenge formulation. Then the most distance a virtually massless electron could travel in its aluminum high voltage skin is about (1.95/60) 3.2 cm, back and forth and back and forth. The actual (sine wave emf calculus) US answer is less than one centimeter back and forth, and EU less than 2. That is because there isn’t a lot of emf except near the peak and trough of the sine wave, slowing down intermediate time things further. Either answer (over simplified or correct) results in not very much electron travel distance (c).

Returning to the main topic of this guest post, despite this new European ‘ grid research’:

Anywhere, anytime, renewable subsidies get reduced, so does investment in them. They are provably uneconomic, stand alone.

Renewables are intermittent; yet do not cover the backup costs of intermittency.

Renewables provide no grid inertia; yet do not cover the costs of providing frequency stability using massive synchronous condensers.

More research and new ‘open source’ data resources concerning fundamentally bad propositions does not improve them. NOPE!

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Alex
December 13, 2020 12:29 pm

“electron could travel in its aluminum high voltage skin is about (1.95/60) 3.2 cm”
What a nonsense! Certainly not.
Each electron travels to the next atom only (classical view), where another electron takes over.
In a quantum view, it is more complicated, as there is no individual electrons anymore.
But let us stay classic.
The skin depth in Copper is about 8.5 mm at 60 Hz. Thus, the 60 Hz current flows in the bulk of a 1 cm wire.
Free electron density in Copper is about 1e23 1/cm3
The electron velocity in the Copper is then v[cm/s] = J[A] / S[cm2] e[C] n[cm-3] = J[A] / 1cm2 1.6e-19C 1e23cm-3 = J[A]/1e4 cm/s (S is the crosssection of about 1 cm2)
A typical transmission line carries a few hundred A current.
Thus, the electron velocity in the wire is about 0.01 cm/s
The electron excursion is then v[cm/s]/w[rad/s] = 0.00005 cm = less than one micron!
(w[rad/s] = 2*pi*60 Hz)
Nothing even near centimeters.

Reply to  Alex
December 13, 2020 2:11 pm

+42

Rud Istvan
December 13, 2020 3:36 pm

I stayed away from comments to this invited guest post on purpose to see which misconceptions might emerge by commenters not researching the stuff first.

So, some misconception corrective comments about which I am quite certain, as a holder of several fundamental patents on energy storage materials and how they can be applied to both EVs, grids and wind turbines (WT answer, blade pitch control and ACPower synch rectification to about 0.5 MW). Charles handed me this assignment because he knew I knew this stuff cold despite not being an EE.
1. Wind is asynchronous so provides no grid inertia because of a fundamental: wind speed is variable, so therefore also is any wind generated AC sine wave. Wind power is rectified then synthesized to AC grid sync. The kinetic energy mass of the wind rotor blades is therefore irrelevant.
2. All home speaker systems I am familiar with use DC. If AC were used there would be an unavoidable underlying AC ‘hum’. The reason DC works is that the speaker cones that push the air based on DC energy are ‘springy’ (elastic, look at the driver part, not the cone part, if you ever take one apart. (I have repaired two old fairly big speakers at my farm by judicious use of duct tape where the driver and cone tear apart with age, duct tape just recoupling the inert cone to the driver DC magnetics.
3. Subatomic Quantum weirdness does not apply in emf bulk materials. In bulk, there are free electrons ‘stripped’ by emf, and they do move in a conductor driven by emf. Emf in matter moves still close to C, but the free electrons individually do not The emf in a DC system is volts, the quantity of free electron charges is coulombs, and the resulting product is amperes of current. By definition, 1 coulomb of charge times 1 volt of emf equals 1 ampere of current. Maxwell equations describe the resulting varying EM fields using tensor calculus. If quantum rules applied, batteries would not exist.

fred250
Reply to  Rud Istvan
December 13, 2020 9:42 pm

“2. All home speaker systems I am familiar with use DC. If AC were used there would be an unavoidable underlying AC ‘hum’. The reason DC works is that the speaker cones that push the air based on DC energy are ‘springy’ (elastic, look at the driver part, not the cone part, if you ever take one apart. (I have repaired two old fairly big speakers at my farm by judicious use of duct tape where the driver and cone tear apart with age, duct tape just recoupling the inert cone to the driver DC magnetics.

Its actually a tad more complicated

If you feed a constant AC (low voltage, please) signal to your speaker, you will get a constant sound from the loudspeaker as the speaker vibrates backward and forward. If there is no AC signal.. no sound.

If you feed constant DC to a speaker (1.5V max for a second or two, please) you will get a slight pop as the driver moves either backwards or forwards. If you leave the DC connected, you will eventually get smoke and an dead loudspeaker.

So no, not DC. Usually modulated AC drive from the amplifier with a very small DC bias (up to 15mv)

Inside the amplifier, there are both AC and DC sections. gets complicated from there. EE’s only !!

Its really all a matter of terminology……. and shades of grey.

“DC is generally understood to be constant, and AC in most uses is generally understood to be a constant sine wave. Audio signals really aren’t either.. Audio signals are varying sine waves in the frequency range of 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. A constant AC signal (meaning of constant frequency) within that range would be called an audio frequency AC signal though. There’s enough weaseling within the common use of the terms that you could easily get away with calling audio signals AC. You just have to be careful of the context. “AC” to many folks means 120/240 volts AC 50/60 Hz. It’s more common to just refer to audio signals as “audio” instead of trying to call them AC or DC.”

fred250
Reply to  Rud Istvan
December 13, 2020 10:30 pm

“The reason DC works is that the speaker cones that push the air based on DC energy are ‘springy’”

Speakers have a outer surround (usually rubber, or similar, for long throw and Hifi drivers, and corrugated clothe for PA style drivers) They also have a corrugated voice coil alignment “spider”.

The cone vibrates backward and forward about a central position. Certainly NOT DC

Without that vibration….. No sound.

Take a 1.5V DC battery, and use it to “test” a speaker (don’t use 9V !!.. and only do it for a second or so.)

You will see the speaker moves one way only, then returns to center position when you remove the voltage.

menace
Reply to  fred250
December 14, 2020 8:01 am

Yes audio output from class B & D amps is AC. It is not a constant frequency like AC power but it is a constantly changing combination of frequencies and harmonics in the sound of human voices and musical instruments. It still merely pushes and pulls on electrons with no net DC current, creating an electrical transmission wave similar to AC power transmission. Class A & A/B amps have a DC bias. This DC bias makes them less efficient (these amps often generate more heat than audio power) but they may have cleaner audio (lower THD) due to operating in a more linear fashion. However the DC current component does not really require having “monster” cables to have good quality AC audio.

Reply to  fred250
December 14, 2020 10:55 am

At one time, cheap audio amps used class C and expected the speaker to do as Rud says “fill in the gap” thru its springiness. Muddled audio was the issue. Even today the springiness in speakers leads to muddied audio. Proper damping is an issue and in usually can’t be done properly over a large range of either frequency or power. That’s why quality high power speakers cost your arm if not your leg too.

Big cables are used for a couple of reasons. The big one is power. A 400 watt speaker requires a lot of current with a 8 ohm load. Lots of current which is what causes a skin effect, not frequency. The current also requires a big cross-section to reduce ohmic losses. And lastly, is the damping it supplies back to the amp.

fred250
Reply to  Jim Gorman
December 14, 2020 4:07 pm

Big thick speaker cable have too much inductance, his affects the top end sound.

Ok for bass usage, but not on a full range loudspeaker.

Jose Lima
Reply to  Rud Istvan
December 14, 2020 7:49 am

Some comments:
1. Wind power can supply virtual inertia, if the electronic control system is prepared for it. It may be a must in the near future. In addition, it can provide some primary reserve to adjust the frequency and it has been started using in the UK.
2. The output of an audio amplifier and a connection to a speaker is AC. A good high fidelity system covers a frequency range of 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. The impedance of the speaker is usually 4, 6 or 8 ohm and to avoid voltage drop and deviation of the frequency response, the connecting wires must not have an impedance greater than 5% of this value. That is the reason for choosing stable low impedance cables and connectors.
3. To say that “1 coulomb of charge times 1 volt of emf is equal to 1 ampere of current” is totally wrong (it’s energy, joule). The electric current is the charge flow (coulomb per second).
4. In a large interconnected system it is important to check the possibility of inter-area fluctuations (to avoid dangerous inter area oscillations), to evaluate a rate of change of frequency (it is used for automatic load rejection) and, as the interconnected system is a common good, to check the solidarity of response from partners (primary reserve triggered by this first frequency regulation system – due to the frequency droop control by the generators equipped with such installation). If the article is a contribution to help in these fields is welcome.

bethan456@gmail.com
Reply to  Rud Istvan
December 14, 2020 2:21 pm

2. All home speaker systems I am familiar with use DC.
….
You are dead wrong on speakers using DC Mr. Istvan.

A positive voltage pushes the air one way, and a negative voltage pulls the air in the opposite direction. The voice coil is suspended mid way in the field magnet.

December 13, 2020 6:24 pm

Oh dear
Oh dear oh dear.

i have an honours degree in electrical engineering.
I am embarrassed on your behalf.
Lets let it go at that shall we?

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Leo Smith
December 13, 2020 6:41 pm

Please be more specific, since you are apparently so much more well educated.than I.
What part of my laymen’s AC no math explanations do you find so ‘oh dear’ distressing as a likely troll subject ‘expert’?

mikebartnz
Reply to  Rud Istvan
December 13, 2020 9:48 pm

Just ignore him Rud. A number of years ago a friend of mine showed me around the water treatment plant that he managed. It was a ten or fifteen minute tour and at the end he said I knew more than the guy with the relevant degree that had worked there for just over two weeks. There were three major flaws in the site

mikebartnz
Reply to  Leo Smith
December 13, 2020 9:30 pm

What a clever little boy aren’t you. :((
You could have proved it by showing where Rud was wrong but you chose to be a prat instead.

MarkW
December 13, 2020 7:05 pm

If the initial cause of the frequency instability was due to a drop in output from wind turbines, how wise is it to depend on the wind turbines to create the necessary inertia to keep the grid from collapsing?

December 13, 2020 7:49 pm

I think there might be something wrong with the “nonsense” link in the first sentence of this post.

December 13, 2020 7:56 pm

There is a very relevant document produced by the AEMO called” INERTIA REQUIREMENTS METHODOLOGY INERTIA REQUIREMENTS & SHORTFALLS” I haven’t linked to it as I have it as a pdf but it’s on the Interweb. They set out how they determine the inertia requirements of the Australian grid on a State basis and define how much inertia must be on the grid. There is a very good explanation of why grids need inertia and the other associated supports.
For the benefits of the bethans of this world who think the Googling up a few papers and skim reading them make them an expert, AEMO make the following statement:
“3.1.4. Asynchronous generation
On the other hand, asynchronous generation technologies, such as modern wind turbines, solar inverters and batteries, are connected to the power system via a power electronic interface and do not bring any inertia naturally to the power system because they are electrically decoupled from the power system. Most modern asynchronous generation technologies can be designed to provide frequency control capability in the same fashion as Synchronous Machines, however, most existing and committed asynchronous generation in the NEM has not been designed with this capability.
Because of a lack of inherent inertia, these technologies are currently limited in their ability to reduce a change in power system frequency immediately after an imbalance between supply and demand.”
But then, what would AEMO know? They only have to manage a grid where the unreliable renewables are causing major problems.

fred250
December 13, 2020 10:52 pm

Here we go again

Cloudy day over parts of Australia’s east coast, Solar output low

South Australia’s wind only providing 340Mw

SA having to use 80% GAS plus imports.

Tasmania earning money feeding into Victoria.

Prices climbing !

Let’s see what its like in a couple of hours, once the Sun goes down on the east coast

THANK GOODNESS for COAL and GAS. ! (and a small amount of hydro)

December 13, 2020 10:58 pm

“Grid inertia is just the frequency stabilization that comes from the kinetic energy of large rotating generator masses. ”

I think claiming to cover “grid stability basics” and only talking about the small momentary fluctuations that happen and missing discussion on what happens when a suburb drops or comes online is missing the biggest stability issue grids face.

In that case any claims “The gas turbine power reaction time is literally about a second no different than a jet engine.” is wrong and misleading. Ramp times are real and important. And missing from this discussion.

December 13, 2020 11:21 pm

Tim
I disagree with your comments about grid stability. If the system is high inertia, then the changes are a lot more gradual, be they big or small. And it is inertia that determines the big RoCoF the accompanies inbalance, especially the big ones. Having a high inertia then allows the fast response and governors to kick in. Best shown in the standard grid response drawing like here. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Time-intervals-of-frequency-response-during-a-contingency_fig6_330378952
Rud is wrong about ramp times but not by much. The classic is places like Dinorwig that can go from pumping to 1800MW in about 10 seconds IIRC. GTs and the like are slower, but even they can react at about 10% load increase in a similar time period.

Reply to  Chris Morris
December 14, 2020 12:17 am

Of course its all relative. A “suburb” may be only a small fraction of a grid, but that’s not the point. The point is how the grid responds to a large, long term change is an event likely to take the grid down. And they certainly happen. But modern grids are becoming more resilient to those disruptions not “despite the non-dispatchable generators”, but because they exist.

December 14, 2020 12:03 am

Compared to the US, UK or even Australian grids, our (New Zealand) long and stringy grid is prone to large frequency swings, even with high inertia. We usually get several 1Hz drops a year and have had a 2.5Hz drop in recent times. That is scary stuff. It means the engineers and operators in the generation industry are very aware of the issues and the damage it causes from the transients. Unfortunately, the politicians and decision makers aren’t, and they won’t want to know until we have a system black occurrence. To fix it will cost real money that currently they want to spend on fripperies. Here is a document from our grid SO detailing the linkage between inertia, RoCoF and protection together with the effect that high penetration of asynchronous generation will have on it.
https://rise.esmap.org/data/files/library/new-zealand/1%20Renewable%20Energy/RE8.4%20Effect%20of%20Solar%20PV%20on%20Frequency%20Management%20in%20New%20Zealand.pdf

GTB
December 14, 2020 1:13 am

Many people don’t seem to realise the importance of a stable frequency. Its not just keeping the clocks on time. If generators supplying a long distance HVAC transmission line loose sync, they become out of phase with the rest of the grid and can trip on over current. System operators usually run the system on VARS (volt amps reactive). The system is run at a slightly lagging power factor. About 0.9. Leading power factor leads to Instability.

David Stone CEng Elec.
December 14, 2020 3:33 am

What a wonderful range of mad ideas above! When the grid frequency slows there is a lot of power available from the rotating masses ( a steam generator, 600MW has about 100 tons rotating at 3000 RPM or 1500 RPM depending on design, 1800 / 3600 in the 60Hz countries) the bulk of the weight being at the peripheral diameter. This has very high rotating energy available from small changes in position (leading to frequency changes if continued). This phase change also creates very large reactive currents between the rotating machines keeping them moving together. The power involved may well be hundreds of MW above the normal generation. A wind turbine has virtually no available power reserve, and the inverter follows the phase at the machine very accurately, to avoid this large reactive power being required. If it was allowed, the blades would probably stall instantly causing severe mechanical and blade damage. The inertia in a wind turbine must be allowed to rise and fall slowly by the control system putting more or less power to the grid, in other words they have NO reserve at all.

Loren C. Wilson
December 14, 2020 3:47 am

They were already wrong at the start. Per their quote: “that will help develop new power systems capable of meeting changing demands, such as the move towards renewable energy sources.” Demand hasn’t changed. People still need power at the same times each day as they used to, unless you buy a battery-powered vehicle. The difference is that the ability to generate electricity on demand has changed from always to maybe.

Capell Aris
December 14, 2020 4:50 am

For readers in Great Britain (using that designation in a strict sense),if you want to be really terrified, read

National Grid System Operability Framework 2014

The most terrifying bit is Table 7:

National Grid ran a series of these publications after that first report, but then they sort of dribbled away. I can’t think why.

December 14, 2020 6:28 am

The German government refuses to make up the difference, yet also refuses to let them shut down.

Ve haff vays ouf keeping you from shutting down. You WILL stay online, unt till ve say zo.