UPDATE: A Covid-19 case correlation between malarial and non-malarial countries has been plotted by Dr. Roy Spencer, and the results are stunning – see below.
Encouraging news: three new medical studies show a commonly available anti-malaria drug known as chloroquine aka chloroquine phosphate is showing strong results against COVID-19 infections in both China and South Korea. Excerpts from three studies, including one published in Nature are below.
An Effective Treatment for Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Presented by: James M. Todaro, MD and Gregory J. Rigano, Esq.
In consultation with Stanford University School of Medicine, UAB School of Medicine and National Academy of Sciences researchers.
Translation by: Celia MartĆnez-Aceves (Yale B.S. Candidate 2021), MartĆn MartĆnez (MIT B.S. 2017)
Summary
Recent guidelines from South Korea and China report that chloroquine is an effective antiviral therapeutic treatment against Coronavirus Disease 2019. Use of chloroquine (tablets) is showing favorable outcomes in humans infected with Coronavirus including faster time to recovery and shorter hospital stay. US CDC research shows that chloroquine also has strong potential as a prophylactic (preventative) measure against coronavirus in the lab, while we wait for a vaccine to be developed. Chloroquine is an inexpensive, globally available drug that has been in widespread human use since 1945 against malaria, autoimmune and various other conditions.
Chloroquine: C18H26ClN3
Background
The U.S. CDC and World Health Organization have not published treatment measures against Coronavirus disease 2019 (āCOVID-19ā). Medical centers are starting to have issues with traditional protocols. Treatments, and ideally a preventative measure, are needed. South Korea and China have had significantly more exposure and time to analyze diagnostic, treatment and preventative options. The U.S., Europe and the rest of the world can learn from their experience. According to former FDA commissioner, board member of Pfizer and Illumina, Scott Gotlieb MD, the world can learn the most about COVID-19 by paying closest attention to the response of countries that have had significant exposure to COVID-19 before the U.S. and Europe.[1]
As per the U.S. CDC, āChloroquine (also known as chloroquine phosphate) is an antimalarial medicineā¦ Chloroquine is available in the United States by prescription onlyā¦ Chloroquine can be prescribed for either prevention or treatment of malaria. Chloroquine can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers.ā[2]
CDC research also shows that āchloroquine can affect virus infection in many ways, and the antiviral effect depends in part on the extent to which the virus utilizes endosomes for entry. Chloroquine has been widely used to treat human diseases, such as malaria, amoebiosis, HIV, and autoimmune diseases, without significant detrimental side effects.ā[3]
The treatment guidelines of both South Korea and China against COVID-19 are generally consistent, outlining chloroquine as an effective treatment.
Specifically, according to the Korea Biomedical Review, in February 2020 in South Korea, the COVID-19 Central Clinical Task Force, composed of physicians and experts treating patients agreed upon treatment principles for patients with COVID-19.[4] In China, the General Office of the National Health Commission, General Office of the State Administration of Traditional Chinese Medicine as well as a Multi-Center Collaborative Group of Guangdong Provincial Department of Science and Technology and Guangdong Provincial Health Comp and the China National Center for Biotechnology Development have established effective treatment measures based on human studies.[5]
According to their research (reported in Clinical Trials Arena),
āData from the drugās [chloroquine] studies showed ācertain curative effectā with āfairly good efficacyā ā¦ patients treated with chloroquine demonstrated a better drop in fever, improvement of lung CT images, and required a shorter time to recover compared to parallel groups. The percentage of patients with negative viral nucleic acid tests was also higher with the anti-malarial drugā¦ Chloroquine has so far shown no obvious serious adverse reactions in more than 100 participants in the trialsā¦ Chloroquine was selected after several screening rounds of thousands of existing drugs. Chloroquine is undergoing further trials in more than ten hospitals in Beijing, Guangdong province and Hunnan province.ā[6]
…
Chloroquine as a prophylactic (preventative) measure against COVID-19[11]
According to research by the US CDC, chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS coronavirus, both prophylactically and therapeutically. SARS coronavirus has significant similarities to COVID-19. Specifically, the CDC research was completed in primate cells using chloroquineās well known function of elevating endosomal pH. The results show that āWe have identified chloroquine as an effective antiviral agent for SARS-CoV in cell culture conditions, as evidenced by its inhibitory effect when the drug was added prior to infection or after the initiation and establishment of infection. The fact that chloroquine exerts an antiviral effect during pre- and post-infection conditions suggest that it is likely to have both prophylactic and therapeutic advantages.ā
The study shows that chloroquine is effective in preventing SARS-CoV infection in cell culture if the drug is added to the cells 24 h prior to infection.
FIGURE 1
Prophylactic effect of chloroquine. Vero E6 cells pre-treated with chloroquine for 20 hrs. Chloroquine-containing media were removed and the cells were washed with phosphate buffered saline before they were infected with SARS-CoV (0.5 multiplicity of infection) for 1 h in the absence of chloroquine. Virus was then removed and the cells were maintained in Opti-MEM (Invitrogen) for 16ā18 h in the absence of chloroquine. SARS-CoV antigens were stained with virus-specific HMAF, followed by FITC-conjugated secondary antibodies. (A) The concentration of chloroquine used is indicated on the top of each panel. (B) SARS-CoV antigen-positive cells at three random locations were captured by using a digital camera, the number of antigen-positive cells was determined, and the average inhibition was calculated. Percent inhibition was obtained by considering the untreated control as 0% inhibition. The vertical bars represent the range of SEM.
…
In addition, the study also shows that chloroquine was very effective even when the drug was added 3ā5 h after infection, suggesting an antiviral effect even after the establishment of infection.
…
The UK has banned the export of Chloroquine[13]
As of February 26, 2020, the UK government has added chloroquine to the list of medicines that cannot be parallel exported from the UK. Chloroquine was never on this list before. This likely happened because of the growing body of evidence of chloroquineās effectiveness against coronavirus.
China prioritizes internal use of Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients (APIs) including Chloroquine[14]
In early February, Chongqing Kangle Pharmaceutical was requested by the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, Consumption Division to promptly increase the manufacturing and production of the active pharmaceutical ingredients chloroquine phosphate despite slowed production during the Chinese New Year.
…
Conclusion
Chloroquine can both both prevent and treat malaria. Chloroquine can prevent and treat coronavirus in primate cells (Figure 1 and Figure 2). According to South Korean and China human treatment guidelines, chloroquine is effective in treating COVID-19. Given chloroquineās human safety profile and existence, it can be implemented today in the U.S., Europe and the rest of the world. Medical doctors may be reluctant to prescribe chloroquine to treat COVID-19 since it is not FDA approved for this use. The United States of America and other countries should immediately authorize and indemnify medical doctors for prescribing chloroquine to treat COVID-19. We must explore whether chloroquine can safely serve as a preventative measure prior to infection of COVID-19 to stop further spread of this highly contagious virus.
Full study available here
Then there’s this second study:
Breakthrough: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treatment of COVID-19 associated pneumonia in clinical studiesJianjun Gao, Zhenxue Tian, Xu Yang
Abstract
The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) virus is spreading rapidly, and scientists are endeavoring to discover drugs for its efficacious treatment in China. Chloroquine phosphate, an old drug for treatment of malaria, is shown to have apparent efficacy and acceptable safety against COVID-19 associated pneumonia in multicenter clinical trials conducted in China. The drug is recommended to be included in the next version of the Guidelines for the Prevention, Diagnosis, and Treatment of Pneumonia Caused by COVID-19 issued by the National Health Commission of the People’s Republic of China for treatment of COVID-19 infection in larger populations in the future.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bst/14/1/14_2020.01047/_article
Finally, there’s a new study in the prestigious journal Nature:
Remdesivir and chloroquine effectively inhibit the recently emerged novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in vitro
Excerpt:
Chloroquine, a widely-used anti-malarial and autoimmune disease drug, has recently been reported as a potential broad-spectrum antiviral drug.8,9 Chloroquine is known to block virus infection by increasing endosomal pH required for virus/cell fusion, as well as interfering with the glycosylation of cellular receptors of SARS-CoV.10 Our time-of-addition assay demonstrated that chloroquine functioned at both entry, and at post-entry stages of the 2019-nCoV infection in Vero E6 cells (Fig. 1c, d). Besides its antiviral activity, chloroquine has an immune-modulating activity, which may synergistically enhance its antiviral effect in vivo. Chloroquine is widely distributed in the whole body, including lung, after oral administration. The EC90 value of chloroquine against the 2019-nCoV in Vero E6 cells was 6.90āĪ¼M, which can be clinically achievable as demonstrated in the plasma of rheumatoid arthritis patients who received 500āmg administration.11 Chloroquine is a cheap and a safe drug that has been used for more than 70 years and, therefore, it is potentially clinically applicable against the 2019-nCoV.
Our findings reveal that remdesivir and chloroquine are highly effective in the control of 2019-nCoV infection in vitro. Since these compounds have been used in human patients with a safety track record and shown to be effective against various ailments, we suggest that they should be assessed in human patients suffering from the novel coronavirus disease.
A commonly available over-the-counter quinine source exists in Margosa Tree Bark and Cinchona succirubra, Peruvian Bark
Tablets of bark extract are widely available in tablet form, from many sources, including Amazon.com here.
There’s also quinine in Tonic Water, which is available just about anywhere at any grocery or liquor store and also at Amazon:
Tonic water is a soft drink containing quinine, which gives it a bitter taste. Quinine is a common treatment for malaria. Quinine comes from the bark of the cinchona tree.
UPDATE:
From Facebook, Dr. Roy Spencer adds this new information.- Anthony
On the subject of using antimalarial drugs for COVID-19 treatment, I’ve compared COVID-19 cases versus malaria incidence by country….
This is amazing. I downloaded all of the data for 234 countries, incidence of total COVID-19 cases (as of 3/17/2020) versus the incidence of malaria in those countries (various sources, kinda messy matching everything up in Excel).
RESULTS, Multi-country average malaria cases per thousand, COVID-19 cases per million, in three classes of countries based on malaria incidence:
- Top 40 Malaria countries: 212 malaria = 0.2 COVID-19;
- Next 40 Malaria countries: 7.3 malaria = 10.1 COVID-19
- Remaining (81-234) countries: 0.00 malaria = 68.7 COVID-19
Again, the units are Malaria cases per thousand “population at risk”, and COVID-19 cases per million total population.
In all my years of data analysis I have never seen such a stark and strong relationship: Countries with malaria basically have no COVID-19 cases (at least not yet).
Additional support for antimalarial drugs for COVID-19 treatment comes from this investigation linked below.
The map says it all: COVID-19 is where Malaria is not.
Would Tonic water help?
Tonic Water is usually sweetened. That sugar would kill you. For your own good, it is taxed in most progressive locations.
There is a lot more sugar in potatoes, pasta, white bread etc. Plants are sugar factories. Principally making fructose and glucose. Sucrose your typical sweetener is a plant sugar made of guess what fructose and glucose. The taxing of soft drinks is therefore absurd.
MIKE,
Curious George has been known to oit the /Sarc tag . . .
Auto
Thnks. That simmered me down.
Funny watching an old educated over-thinker trying to deal with reality š
The video posted by Loydo is pretty good imo – Dr John Campbell appears quite knowledgeable and helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching
Loydo, thank you for this excellent review of CoronaV mechanics. I mark a great day when I learn something new.
Not from the point of view of the tax office.
All the starch turns to sugar once it hits your stomach acid.
You’re not making a clear distinction between refined and whole food sources of ‘sugar’.
They are vastly different in how the sugar gets absorbed and what effects it has within the human body. We can’t compare refined grains with whole grains and neither can we compare fructose, glucose or table sugar with fruit.
There are thousands of phytochemicals in ‘sugar factories’, as you call them. If you remove these, sugar gets absorbed more quickly and anti-inflammatory effects present in the original package disappear and often make place for the emergence of inflammatory properties.
How all the phytochemicals act within the body is incredibly complex with the microbiome playing a central role.
Legumes for example has tons of ‘sugar’. but it can blunt blood glucose, due to a complex interaction with beneficial microbes in the gut. If you’d isolate the carbohydrates and remove the rest of the nutrients, that cannot happen.
The amount of science we have on the effects of added sugar on health is immense. Taxes make a lot of sense actually in the interest of the general health of the public.
Not that all policies are in the best interest of the public, due to conflicts of interest, but that’s another story.
Take care.
You can buy artificially sweetened tonic water, and let the sweetener give you cancer instead.
(And yes, I am joking)
Can I trade a pickup truck full of toilet paper for one of tonic water? Maybe the government would give a permit for large gin and tonic parties! I actually have some chloroquine pills in my kit.
The accompanying gin is of course entirely medicinal… and don’t forget the vitamin C in the twist of lime or lemon.
The British developed the habit in India (hence the Bombay Sapphire brand of gin), and found it quite useful in dealing with malaria. But you ,might prefer a long one to increase your quinine dose.
As long as the gin is at least 70% alcohol, it can also be used as disinfectant hand wash.
Then I’m dead and I don’t know it??? š
āProgressiveā?!? The unintended negative consequences of most āprogressiveā policies make the regressive in effect. And with that being seen over and over, one suspects that the regressive results are perversely desired by the progressive elites, who somehow manage to gain more control as they distance themselves from the suffering masses.
They make diet tonic water. I used to make gin & diet tonic when I could tolerate alcohol. Too many meds now. Don’t forget the twist of lime. Yummy.
If you don’t have any lime, it’s also good with a slice of cucumber.
And now, since I am one of the many furloughed and have nothing else to do today, I’m going to make a stiff G&T to go with lunch.
Sadly I’m the only one In my family who can stand the bitter of quinine. I on the other hand will happily drink tonic water even without the gin.
A sprig of rosemary even better with G&T.
After reading this and the post by Willis I did some investigation of the Diamond PrIncess following a comment at Jo Nova’s
“”On the theme of the effect of anti-malarials, is it possible that these drugs could have influenced the Diamond Princess outcome?””
I did some research on the subject following that post
Malaria is found in more than 100 countries, mainly in tropical regions of the world, including:
large areas of Africa and Asia.
Central and South America.
Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
parts of the Middle East.
some Pacific islands
When the Diamond Princess left the port of Yokohama in Japan on January 20, the 2,666 passengers on board were ready to enjoy a trip to China, Vietnam and Taiwan.
I Looked at the UK NHS web site
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/malaria
and also specific advice for travellers to the area
Taiwan would seem to be free of malaria but have other infection possibilities. Both China and Vietnam have Malaria and numerous other dangers . Reading the advice from the Diamond Princess operators and the medical authorities, vaccinations are suggested or required, together with taking anti malarial tablets including Chloroquine.
Bearing in mind the age group and likely health issues of many of the passengers and mandatory requirements and Insurance demands I would be amazed if anti malarial type precautions were not required for EVERY passenger. Whether that applies to crew members I can’t say.
So that could explain why the entire complement on the ship didn’t come down with Covid 19 if indeed, as is being suggested, anti malarial drugs have some impact on it
tonyb
Tonyb, in February my wife and I took a cruise to PNG and accepted government advice to take anti malarial treatment, even though we would only be ashore, during the daytime, on 4 occasions. The cruise line did not require us to have this treatment but we thought better safe than sorry. I doubt many other passengers did this and I suspect Diamond Princess was the same.
Peter
Thanks for that. But would peoples health insurance demand they take all reasonable precautions when going to known malaria prone areas?
tonyb
The drug most often prescribed as a prophylactic for travel is Lariam (mefloquin) which can have some pretty unpleasant side effects. I was warned of these side effects and I know some people who have had severe psychological side effects after taking it . I suspect many passengers would be relying on anti-mosquito measures rather than take Lariam unless they were visiting a high malaria-risk area, not just a country where malaria is present.
Chloroquine is a drug with much lower side effects, but there are Chloroquine-resistant populations of plasmodium around, hence this drug is rarely recommended as a prophylactic.
Yeah, thanks for doing that for my own good. Because one drink of tonic water a year will do what to me exactly?
“Drop the honey jar and put your hands up, punk!”
And, it’s no good without gin! OK, you need to drink a lot of it but, I’m working on it! LOL.
Only with Bombay Sapphire gin which contains elderberry.
Dunno, but I drink it regularly!
I live in the Baja and was able to get 2 boxes of Chloroquine 150 mg 30 capsules a few days ago when this article came out. – over the counter.
Unfortunately I only got one box. Went to that pharmacy today and now they are out of it …
I guess the word got out pretty fast…. all my friends wanted mee to pick it up, but the word is out here in Mexico.
John,
Can you still get ketamine in Baja? OTC?
Well, just looked it up – tonic water has something like 83mg / liter. So, call it six liters a day to get the studied 500mg dose.
(Self-administer as a G&T, and you’ll likely end up in the ER with alcohol poisoning. But maybe not worried about coronavirus. Or much of anything else…)
You can buy syrups that contain higher amounts. You still might get a bit tipsy.
Writing Observer: the dosage in trials in the several studies was actually 90% of optimum at 6.9mg. A gin and tonic per dose would seem perfect. The 500mg is used by rhumatoid arthritis patients. This was simply to show that side effects would be insignificant at 1% of this dosage.
Can you provide a link for that? The French study appeared to use 600mg/day for Corvid 19.
Bonal Gentiane-Quina is much, much better!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2018/04/26/what-does-gin-and-tonic-have-to-do-with-malaria-prevention/#3a50b38f68cb
I think the Gin would help even more.
The dose of quinine in tonic water is very low. It has been evaluated for relief of cramping in athletes and seniors.
the dose is maybe equivalent to the dose of potassium in an average banana as far as cramps go.
“the dose is maybe equivalent to the dose of potassium in an average banana as far as cramps go.”
Philo, there’s at least one video on Youtube with a Dr (trust me I’m a …) warning people against eating too many bananas because the potassium in them could create potassium poisoning.
“could” sounds like a climate scientist speaking doesn’t it!
Of course there is no prescribed level of bananas since no one knows how many you actually have to eat as there’s no known case of potassium poisoning through consumption of bananas.
Save the bananas, let people die! Bananas “may” be in danger of extinction!
Our children won’t know what a banana tastes like in X years!
All those exclamation marks! It’s like a Ludlum novel!
How else could the progressives stuff it up?
Quinine was taken off the market several years ago in the US. I know because it was once prescribed for leg cramps, which I have quite often.
When that was in the offing I stocked up.
Take magnesium supplement and cut out the sugar.
I don’t know but I bought a few bottles.
Most likely not.
Please, people, chloroquine, and hydroxychloroquine, ARE NOT THE SAME AS QUININE.
Yes, they are all antimalarials, but the antiviral effect of chloroquine is attributed to it being a zinc ionophore. There is no good (bio)chemical reason to assume that quinine is also a zinc ionophore. It is not the antimalarial activity that is responsible for the antiviral activity. So swallowing any old antimalarial drug (quinine) is not likely to help against Corona virus.
The Chloroquine and HydroxyChloroquine help shuttle Zinc into the cells. Zinc interferes with/stops the viral RNA transcription inside the cells and halts the proliferation of the virus. Provided the diet is sufficiently high in Zinc this will be an effective treatment. As has been shown now by https://www.covidtrial.io/
The entire panic has been caused by the normal bad use of statistics by the medical community.
Testing was only done for active presence of the novel corona virus and not for the antibodies to it hugely reducing the size of the denominator and providing a falsely elevated mortality rate. That was followed by a politician led ‘autoimmune cascade’ response damaging businesses worldwide.
I remember reading a trial where simple Zinc tabs were found to be as useful as antivirals for flu relief as well as cold duration/relief
I always start taking zinc at the first throat niggle as well as gargling with baking soda tastes foul but changes the ph in the throat, get it early enough and it does halt the bug I found but it MUST be early.
Me too. Interestingly, I carry a 1 ounce nip (brandy or whiskey) with me when I feel an onset. All it takes is a tiny sip. Burns a tad and then soothes. Better than a gargle since you can swallow it and get all of the throat swabbed.
Give this man a cigar for accurate appreciation of the issue.
Then let the establishment silence him to save face…
Chlorquine is merely an amine acidotropic form of quinine. I can’t find anything online as to whether its a zinc ionophore, but I did find that quinine reduces hepatic metabolism of zinc.
First, we establish that chloroquine is quinine produced synthetically and altered slightly to produce a new molecule for patenting purposes. The end product in the body is still quinine. Newer molecules (such as hydroxychloroquine) decrease toxicity, allowing longer dosage schedules.
By the 1930s Dutch plantations in Java were producing 22 million pounds of cinchona bark, or 97% of the world’s quinine production. When Japan invaded Java in 1941, natural quinine supplies dried up, necessitating mass production of synthetic derivatives. [8]
Chloroquine is an amine acidotropic form of quinine that was synthesized in Germany by Bayer in 1934 and emerged approximately 70 years ago as an effective substitute for natural quinine [4].
Quinine is eliminated mainly by hepatic metabolism [1]. Seven metabolites have been identified with 3-hydroxyquinine being the major metabolite [1]. Other majority metabolites are (10R)-10,11-dihydroxyquinine and (10S)-10,11-dihydroxyquinine [2].
Quinine acts against malaria by targeting its purine nucleoside phosphorylase enzyme (PfPNP) [3], but it has other effects in the body which act against coronavirus.
Namely, it targets angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) [4], interfering with sialic acid biosynthesis [4]. SARS, MERS and Covid-19 use sialic acid moieties as receptors, so quinine (and its synthetic counterparts) prevent viral attachment to cell receptors.
Chloroquine can also act on the immune system through cell signalling and regulation of pro-inflammatory cytokines. [4]
It also acts to increase zinc uptake, which has anti-viral effects. Quinine used to be sold, prior to the FDA banning it for this use, as a treatment for leg cramps. The mechanism of action is increased uptake of zinc, calcium and magnesium by reducing hepatic metabolism of zinc [10]. Now it is recommended to directly ingest zinc, calcium and magnesium for leg cramps rather than taking quinine. [9]
This may be why people infected with Covid-19 experience a loss of the sense of taste (and smell, since the two senses are intricately connected) [11][12].
As to dosage, it generally takes 4 to 5 days to completely flush quinine from the body [5]. The consumption of 10 oz. of tonic water can result in a quinine positive urine sample for a period of up to 96 hours (4 days) after intake. [5] Approximately 20% of quinine is excreted unmetabolized [6]. It has a half-life of approximately 18 hours [6].
Quinine in tonic water in the US is limited to 83 mg / liter [7].
Thus, we can make a simple linear extrapolation, assuming a half-life of 18 hours and ingestion of 83 mg / day. This means that after 24 hours, approximately 27.67% of the amount from the prior day remains in the system. Thus it accumulates until the body is excreting as much as is ingested. That occurs after approximately 5 days, when the dosage varies between 124.5 mg immediately after ingestion to 41.5 mg immediately prior to the next ingestion.
Is that enough to have a prophylactic effect?
Well, the National Institutes of Health state that chloroquine is “a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection” [13] and since SARS binds to the same cellular receptors as Covid-19, and since chloroquine is a synthetic version of quinine, it would appear that it should work.
Pretreatment with 0.1, 1, and 10 Ī¼M chloroquine reduced infectivity by 28%, 53%, and 100%, respectively. [13]
The EC90 value of chloroquine against the 2019-nCoV in Vero E6 cells was 6.90āĪ¼M, which can be clinically achievable as demonstrated in the plasma of rheumatoid arthritis patients who received 500āmg administration. [14]
Interpolating the dosage of 500 mg to 6.9 Ī¼M concentration, for a dosage of 124.5 mg daily, that should give a concentration of ~1.71 Ī¼M, reducing infectivity by ~60% per [13].
Given that no doctor is going to give you chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine as a prophylactic measure, using Indian tonic water containing quinine to reduce infectivity would seem to be a prudent preventative measure.
[1] https://www.drugs.com/npp/quinine.html
[2] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2710.2007.00788.x
[3] https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/01/22/quinines-target
[4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920300881
[5] https://friendslab.com/quinine-use-and-detection/
[6] https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00468
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_water
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine
[9] https://healthfully.com/287838-leg-cramps-magnesium-calcium.html
[10] https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-19765/cal-mag-zinc-ii-oral/details/list-interaction-details/dmid-455/dmtitle-aluminum-and-magnesium-antacids-quinidine-quinine/intrtype-drug
[11] https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/2/305/4687001
[12] https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-symptoms-loss-of-smell-taste-covid-19-anosmia-hyposmia-2020-3?op=1
[13] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/
[14] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0
Update to the text above to clarify and correct:
Interpolating the dosage of 500 mg to 6.9 Ī¼M concentration, for a dosage of 124.5 mg daily (83 mg from tonic water, the remainder being that remaining in the body from prior dosages), that should give a concentration of ~1.71 Ī¼M, reducing infectivity by ~60% immediately after ingestion of 1 L of Indian tonic water, decreasing over the next 24 hours to ~.47 Ī¼M, with a reduced infectivity of ~40%, per [13].
No because tonic water no longer contains quinine.
In the UK it still does, listed in the ingredients on a bottle bought this week.
Dear Sir,
Quinine, is still available in Soda water in the U.S.; You just Need to Check the labeling to make sure that you are buying the right Soda water.
I bought 4 of 1 liter bottles of tonic water with quinine last night at Walgreens in Huntington Beach, California
It still does in Canada too. š
BTW, we don’t need to wait the warmer season, especially because we spend most time indoors. Just crank up AC to increase air temperature and humidity.
This poor man’s protection against respiratory viruses transmission is now shown to work against spread of COVID19.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3551767
Leo, AC and forced air heaters both reduce humidity, not increase it.
Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite and furthermore always carry a small snake.
W.C. Fields
I think 10 liters daily (2.6 gallons) will give you an effective dose …
Tonic water can be consumed to prevent the virus; the ingredient is Quinine; (Cinchona Bark);
Anyone for a Gin & Tonic?
+10×1042
David
Don’t panic! > ; }
Yes, please! I’ll say when.
The glass will tell you when.
The floor will tell you when.
LOL
It’s not the second glass that does the damage … it’s the second bottle!! š
When I saw the headline, I was hoping it was quinine. Now that I am “working from home” this will give me a sound medical reason for having G&Ts and V&Ts. I hope I don’t run out of limes!
As things are progressing we might need a bit more than just Gin & Tonic
Although UK is doing a bit beret than some large European nations, graph near future projection looks more than grim, the exponential rise continues, both for the number of infected and dead. Here is today’s update
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/UK-COVID-19.htm
If anyone is doing beret, I would have thought it would be the French.
Mark
a better beret; misspelling maybe an early symptom of alzheimer’s.
BTW, are you in a high risk age group re Covid-19?
I turned 60 this month and have high blood pressure.
My company just announced that everyone works from home until further notice. I do programming and system maintenance, so as long as I can log in, I can work from anywhere.
I did have to go to the office to drag all of my monitors and other hardware home.
No cases in my county yet, but several of the surrounding counties have seen their first cases.
You know me, the only time I comment on a typo is when I can make a joke out of it.
Though sometimes I’m the only one who is able to see the joke.
Mark, you are welcome, I am just a bit alder than you and recently retired.
We do need occasional comment to bring a smile, too much gloomy around
āIf we can get this down to 20,000 and below, that is a good outcome in terms of where we would hope to get to with this outbreak.”, the UKās chief scientific adviser said today.
“I am just a bit alder ”
I’ve been accused of being wooden before, but never so directly.
A Monk, a Priest and Rabbit walk into a blood the Rabbit says I’m a type O.
Oops should be blood bank
Unusual to see you making a mistake Vuk.
Exponential means rising for ever at a steeper rate. The graph for Covid 18 is a Gompertz curve where growth is slowest at the beginning and end.
See the article on WUWT Math of Epidemics March 13th 2020 by Willis Eschenbach.
But no matter what it’s called it is still worrying.
We are in the exponential portion of the Gompertz curve.
Hi Eric,
Not really, mistake is my middle name, however I did say “the exponential rise continues”.
As an engineer I’m well familiar with the Sigmoid function, I even used it to design a digital high-pass filter. You can easily plot it using
y= e^x/(1+e^x) . As the equation implies, whole of the curve is exponential including parts along the low and high asymptote.
Why not have some fun and plot it in excel =2.718^A1/(1+2.718^A1) , you could start with (A1=) -10, an increase subsequently (A2=) =A1+1, etc.
Now, if you do a mirror image you’ll get a reasonable band-pass filter. Sigmoid function is used as the base some bell curves as I believe is the Gompertz. However, there are other exponential frequency distribution curves including Gaussian but with a bit more complex formula, not as easy to plot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/MEDCRAMvideos/videos
Medical Lectures Explained CLEARLY
I have started following this channel in the last couple of weeks as well. The Too Long Did Not Watch, is that the chloroquine drugs allow zinc to enter cells where the virus replication takes place, and the zinc inhibits the replication process.
I have no idea why western governments aren’t copying whatever South Korea is doing, because they have the best stats to date in dealing with this virus. South Korea’s numbers can be trusted to a high degree because of extensive testing and tracing.
Uh-oh, by the end of March there will be more dead people than infected people. Logarithnic scales are not usefule here.
Hi Robert
You got strange sense of humour, don’t you?
The left hand scale is for number of infected, right hand scale, one order of magnitude smaller values, is number of dead.
All the best to you and your family and I do hope that most of us get through this crisis in good health.
have another look
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/UK-COVID-19.htm
And that Robert, is how the zombie apocalypse happens.
Re-open the bars immediately!
Right? I work for a K-8 charter school that was already scheduled for spring break. My buddy and I worked Monday and Tuesday disinfecting a building that is going to be empty for weeks- so disinfecting isn’t even necessary, since everything will die within days anyway.
Anywhoos, we were gonna stop and play a game of pool or two, since we’ve been talking trash for years but never actually played each other. We were both tired, and decided to play pool the next day. That night, Gov Polis ordered all bars closed. Such BS. I need to humiliate my buddy with mad pool skills, or, even better, find an equal opponent. Sigh.
only in groups of one or more and only to excess
especially now I can rationalize the hell out of it
I’m converted!
Gin and Tonic? Sure, when I run out of Whisky.
GIN AND TONICS ALL AROUND!!
Yes! We can all do with a bit of good news. Thanks for posting this Anthony.
That’s trebles…
JF
aye, jynnan tonyx!
There’s a frood who knows where his towel is!
…and it’s a pill ++++++++++++
Quinine Tablets also available on Amazon
Cinchona bark – not quinine, quinidine (right rotated isomer of quinine), or chloroquine phosphate (the purified and more assimilable form).
From the descriptions (many of which are not written by native English speakers – sorry, but that is a red flag) – they range from 800mg to 1000mg bark per dose. Quinine / quinidine are about 16% of the bark, so that is ~130 to 160mg per tablet. Not close to the doses that are being studied, or what is in a commercial anti-malarial tablet (although far better than tonic water / syrup).
Taking three times the dose on the bottle – definitely not. There are several other alkaloids in the bark that are decidedly dangerous.
Writing Observer: I commented above, too. You are incorrect on dosage. For Covid study in the optimum dosage( i.e. 90% of) in China tests was 6.9mg. Citing 500mg was for Rheumatoid A, simply to show human high toleration for the drug. Re-read that part!
Caramba!
LOL!
Any side effects that would prevent its use as a preventative measure.
Yes, it’s cheap, effective, and widely available. Subsequently the medical community has no profit incentive
How do you know it is effective?
By what measure?
What data have you seen?
Not one word of data is to be found here.
Sure, it is safe.
This is not how reports of proven clinical efficacy read.
Follow the link … all the data that’s fit to print …
Med Cram from one week ago gives a clear explanation of Chloroquine as an intracellular zinc inhibitor.
virus inhibitor
In vitro.
I am also a little amazed the only word about safety is to say it is “safe”.
There is a long list of side effects, some of them severe, including retinal damage that may be severe and permanent, loss of hearing, loss of hair, nausea, diarrhea, stomach cramps, headache, muscle weakness, changes in hair and hair color and skin and skin color.
Those are among the longer list of “common” side effects.
Others include death in the case of accidental overdose, dangerous and possibly fatal low blood sugar, seizures, dizziness, tachycardia, confusion, hallucinations, severe skin reactions (the drug is contraindicated if you have psoriasis…about 2-3% of the population), and a whole bunch more.
This is a very odd list of side effects to write off as safe.
Of course, safe means something else for drugs meant to treat severe and deadly illness.
Chemo is considered safe if it does not kill too many people outright, and some people do not get too sick to keep taking it.
The dosage that puts a person at risk of severe retinal damage is said to be any amount > 2.3 mg/kg.
500 milligrams is over twice that for someone who weighs 220 pounds.
For someone who weights 110 pounds, it is over 4 times the danger amount for retinal damage.
I do not know how common “common” is. Sounds like lots of people take it.
It also sounds like one of the things that lots of people hate to take and it makes them very sick.
Plus…there is no clinical trial data.
I happen to be very aware of how many things will viruses and bacteria in vitro and in cells, and are completely useless for treating disease nonetheless.
If the CFR is 1%, you would need to give it to several hundred at least for one group vs a similar sized group vs placebo and randomly and double blindly given, in order to get even a tentative result that was statistically significant.
This appears to be based on a small sample size or less than 100 people and no compator.
Drug companies are not stupid, and they like to have things to sell, but in spite of that, 1 in 5000 drugs that seem to be great in the lab are ever approved by the FDA.
And it takes an average of 12 years and costs 3 billion dollars because anecdotal information, such as “we gave it to a bunch of people and they seemed to do better than some other people who did not get it”, is utterly worthless when determining if a drug has value.
I sincerely hope this is a wonder cure.
But even this report does not read like it was some miracle. Remdesivir sounds like that by most reports of people who have gotten it, and yet people who know what they are doing are very cautious to say much more than it appears to have some value.
Op top of that, anyone who thinks clinicians and doctors who have a country full of people on respirators and people are dying in the hallways, like is occurring in Italy due to lack of respirators, are surely aware of these reports, as is the CDC, and every health official in every country.
This is not written like a report of a drug which is being seriously studied…it reads like what we see in alt medicine journals.
If being published in Nature was the gold standard of research to take heed of, we had best all get ready for global incineration about 20 years ago.
We talk about the crap they publish here all the time, like the one Monckton of Brenchley is suing over.
This may have some value, or it may be unfit for purpose.
The attention being given this by the governments of every country in the world makes me doubly sure of what I thought when I first read it.
If this did not make your crapometer ring and alarm bell, you do not know enough about how drugs are studied.
Nicholas,
My daughter sat down next to me at breakfast today and said, “The world is going crazy.” She’ll have to go back to her teaching job in China when the private school where she works, and the Chinese government, finally gets their protocols aligned. Till then, sheās dealing with her slightly spoiled private school kids online. Iām not worried that she has to go back.
We all must plead guilty to arguments from SOME authority – unless you’re doing your own independent research. In that case youāre the authority that we all must listen to — assuming you know how to carry out proper research and report on your findings. I’ll plead this authority, Dr. Roger Scheult, because I LIKE him. He’s clear, concise, accomplished, and he has mastered this medium of teaching and communication. I don’t doubt his science. I think you would approve of his bottom line: “We really need a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blinded type of study…” Till then he feels ācautious optimismā.
Your first critique was that the paper only shows effects of zinc on Coronavirus “in vitro”. It’s clear you did not listen to the whole video.
The FIRST of the FOUR studies Scheult presents is an abstract of a report from 10 years ago which shows how zinc inhibits coronavirus ā and is very good at it. The fact that this was in a test-tube is significant, but he deals later with other studies done in humans.
The SECOND study, presented by Chinese and published in 2014 in a Creative Commons online proves that Chloroquine is a zinc ionophore. I’m not a biologist, but he explains to my satisfaction what this means for getting zinc into a cell’s nucleus where it will inhibit the virusās replication. This and like studies show a similar result. The Chinese data is freely available.
The side effects of Chloroquine are well known. The fact that you can list them all, as well as cite dosages, indicates to me that its contraindications would be well-understood by every doctor in the U.S. Chloroquine is cheap and safe. Millions take the drug safely to prevent malaria. I donāt remember hearing any scary caveats when I was given a prescription to take on a four-week āsafariā and climbing expedition in central Africa. (I didnāt need them ā just brought the vial back)
Seheult’s THIRD paper is from the “Korean Biomedical Review” showing how their “Physicians Work(ed) out Treatment Guidelines for Coronavirus”, and it was dated Feb. 13 of 2020, before any significant cases of COVD-19 appeared and 16 days before the epidemic peaked at a reported 909 new cases per day. After that day new cases stair-stepped down just as quickly as they had climbed, and last Monday they reported only 74 new cases. The treatment regimen their doctors had prescribed was two chloroquine tablets per day (I donāt remember the dose).
We donāt know how many in Korea received this Chloroquine regimen, and we should have those details before beginning our own in the U.S. But this is the empirical āin vivoā evidence that you require. If WHO and CDC do their jobs, weāll have that data to evaluate the Korea treatments properly. See Scheultās extrapolation from mortality and severe cases at 14:30 to understand how successful Korea has been relative to other countries.
As of 3/16, it appeas their curve is flattening at 8,200 total cases, and unless they experience a second surge, it will follow the same flat trajectory seen in China.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/
The FINAL paper is the Chinese āExpert Consensus on Chloroquine Phosphate for Treatment of Novel Coronavirus Pneumoniaā out of Canton. It reports that there have been no ill effects from Chloroquine treatments. āPatients treated with Chloroquine demonstrated a better drop in fever, improvement of lung CT images, and required shorter time to recover compared to parallel groups.ā
I hope youāre persuaded. Iāve written more on this thead in the last few days than in the last 20 years. The world really has gone a bit crazy.
Bill,
I do not much like double talk.
Or having words put in my mouth.
The direct effects on viral inhibition are in vitro cell culture studies.
I could give you a long list of antivirals that work perfectly in vitro and fail to help with viral clearance in human beings with an infection.
You said this:
“Your first critique was that the paper only shows effects of zinc on Coronavirus āin vitroā. ”
I did not say anything about zinc at all. Then you relate that he said exactly what I said, then put some more words in my mouth and then some double talk, like this:
“a report from 10 years ago which shows how zinc inhibits coronavirus ā and is very good at it. The fact that this was in a test-tube is significant, but he deals later with other studies done in humans.”
So, once again, he confirmed what I said, and what everyone who knows what they are talking about has said, and then seemed to say I was wrong anyway because “he deals with this later”.
Huh?
Then your numbered list goes on and on. Your doctor gave you this medicine. OK, great.
You seemed to think that pointing out that “safe” is a relative concept was being pedantic? Is that it?
There are groups of people who will immediately be at risk of severe side effects if given this drug, like any of the 3% of people in the world with psoriasis. Have you ever had it? Do you know what psoriatic arthritis is? Do you know what psoriasis on fingernails and toenails does if someone that has that condition has a “severe” flare up, which chloroquine is known to cause? I will tell you: Psoriatic arthritis is a crippling and permanent condition, a degenerative disease in which the cartilage of the joints is eroded, sometimes permanently, and always progressively. A severe flare up can mean lifelong disability. The more common psoriasis vulgaris is merely incredibly uncomfortable, incurable, and can lead to people becoming so depressed about their appearance that they cannot go out in public. It can make it impossible to sleep. The drugs to control a flare up are expensive and may cause severe side effects of their own. Someone with mild psoriasis that winds up with a severe case has likely undergone a like changing event from which they can spend years attempting to find relief from, and often that relief is dangerous drugs that must be taken for a lifetime.
I will spare you the details of what it feels like to need injections underneath your fingernails and toenails every month for a few years, like what happens when one’s nails dissolve from an outbreak of psoriasis, and I will not post pictures either. I will just point out to you that it is very easy for someone to be ignorant and blithe when it comes to side effects they themselves never had.
There are others who must not take it.
I might be tempted to think your doctor knows you do not have psoriasis, or porphyria, or any of these other conditions which contraindicate this “safe” drug. Or should I assume your doctor never bothered to ask or check the list, or worry about it?
What percent of people are dying from this disease?
Most never get any symptoms.
Let’s say it is one percent fatal. Let’s say it is less than that for someone young.
What percent of people have one of these conditions, Bill?
glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency
porphyria
anemia
low levels of white blood cells
alcoholism
myasthenia gravis
a skeletal muscle disorder
maculopathy
changes in the visual field
hearing loss
liver problems
psoriasis
seizures
anemia from pyruvate kinase and G6PD deficiencies
Those are the people who are in real danger of some serious and possibly permanent harms from taking this “safe” drug.
This is the sort of thing the FDA knows, and doctors who prescribe this will know.
All of what you cited was just a rehash.
Treating people who are sick is different that handing out pills to people who are not.
The benefits are always weighed against the risk.
For someone with pneumonia or malaria, or going someplace with malaria mosquito, and outbreak of psoriasis may be no big deal. It happens to people who have it.
Giving it to hundreds of millions of people as a prophylactic is a different story.
In that case, one wants to know exactly what the incidence of side effects are, and how often they are severe.
It is strong enough that forgetting if you took it and taking another can be life threatening, at the 500mg dose for someone who is small. Children have died from taking less than 1000 mg.
Safe?
Sure, maybe.
Would you leave aspirin laying around if taking two of them would kill a kid, and you had kids in your house that needed to take them?
Nicholas,
Just listen to the video. His claims are modest. Yours are not.
Flu Cases: 32 million
Flu Hospitalizations: 310,000
Flu Deaths: 18,000 (125 children)
(CDC, Feb 22)
Last year there were more than 60,000 deaths from flu.
By comparison, so far this year:
COVD-19 Cases: 209,000
COVD-19 Deaths: 8,778
You’ve done yeoman’s work listing Chloroquine’s side effects. Others have done the work for the cost of Chloroquine. In all your banging on about your drug of choice, I haven’t seen you list any of Remdesivirās side effects, let alone its cost. Why don’t you list those?
If thereās one lesson from this web site, it is that people love the idea of an apocalypse. Maybe because it allows them to sell something. No matter how exercised people are getting about the epidemic, 90% of those presenting themselves for tests are not infected with COVID-19, but with the flu.
And if you still feel that your humble honor and modest sensibilities have been offended, you can always dress up in your Valkyrie costume, turn up the Wagnerian opera loud and come swooping in to avenge yourself. Or you can just stuff it.
I have not said anything about the side effects because I have not found any reference to them.
My interest in the drug is based on the widespread view that it is the most promising drug available for usage anytime soon.
At this point though, it has to be considered that no news is bad news…for any of the treatments.
I do not favor it…I am hopeful.
But also skeptical…I have said right along that only clinical trial results can give information that is scientifically valid, and until a drug is validated by trials, it has to be regarded as experimental…because it is.
I have also pointed out that most drug candidates do not pass muster in clinical trials.
However, remdesivir showed about the same level of viral activity in vitro against a range of viruses, and additionally it has been shown to be safe and effective in treating animals with SARS and MERS.
That is more than can be said for anything else.
But note I have also been very careful to note, repeatedly, that “safe” has a different meaning when a drug is being used to treat a person who is sick and may die, especially when there is no other treatment available.
So far, nothing has been shown to be safe and effective against this virus.
I have written a lot about numerous aspects over the past few months, and honestly I cannot recall every word i have written, so you will have to remind me of what claims I made that were immodest?
I have tried very hard to find relevant info and pass it along.
Where I have added my own opinions, I have tried to be careful to say so.
I do not believe I have made any particular claims, except to pass along what I have found in literature and what my own experience has informed me over many years.
As for the cost…how would I say anything about it?
No info has been given by the manufacturer, except they have made statements to the effect that no decision on pricing has been made, for among other reasons because they themselves do not have completed data.
They say they will ensure affordability and wide access.
There has been a long and ongoing debate about the ethics of profiting from new drugs a company has invented and brought to market, and there is no point is getting into that here.
I will say that I am glad that there is at least one country in the world that allows a biotech or pharma company to make a profit.
Look at the number of new drugs invented by US companies, vs all the rest of the companies in the world.
No one disputes that it costs billions of dollar to develop and test and bring to market any new drug, and most of them fail and never make a nickel back.
Who is going to invest billions with no chance of making a similar sized profit if they are successful?
If it was easy, everyone would do it.
Tech companies make billions for stuff no one needs.
People that play pro sports make hundreds of millions a year to toss a ball around.
How much should we pay someone who invents a drug that cures a disease of saves thousands and sometimes millions of lives?
We could say zero…because it is unethical, and we might as a result kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
Or maybe people that do that work will just spend their time and money for the good of humanity.
Only…why do they not do that equally all over the world if that is the case?
Oh, BTW…nine days later:
COVID cases = 721,412
Covid deaths = 33,956
Deaths in the US have doubled in about two or three days.
New York alone now has:
59,648 cases
965 total deaths.
And this is only after everyone in the world has gone in de facto lockdown or virtual lockdown.
Where might those number be otherwise?
How many will there be in another month…considering the first US death was about a month ago.
The four countries that began using chloroquine over two weeks ago have death figures climbing by over a thousand a day.
Those same countries also list remdesivir as the treatment of choice for the sickest patients.
If those drugs are helping, it is hard to see it in the numbers so far…but maybe they would be twice as high otherwise.
Maybe not.
Let’s wait and see.
If I was going to bet on it, I would guess that nothing being tried is making a huge difference, except possibly in people who are not very sick and are not at much risk anyway.
I am trained as a scientist, and I keep that in mind whether I am talking about the weather, the climate, or a medicine or a disease.
Evidence is what I look at:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095632020601700505
I am very skeptical that we can figure out much based on the skewing of tests. Still in US we are being asked to only get tested if we are very sick or need medical attention… and I also know we are ramping out data counting based on this skewed measure. So the data will be difficult to draw conclusions on whether treatments are helping until we can get control tests or well documented test results.
I think we would not disagree on this!
PS: The mortality rate based on testing in US has gone way up in the past few days. That, to me, is partially the skew and that cities like NY are getting counts of very sick people in an overburdened health system there.
If this is against the interests of the medical community, how did the “medical community” let the information slip out?
Do you really believes that doctors and scienists world wide, are only in it for the money?
_The medical community in the West_ did not let this out, but it was easy to find on the internet.
As you will find in one of the studies the CDC was involved in the study. But STILL the CDC allow people to suffer and die, even with the ‘Right to Try’ act – crying crocodile tears at press briefings instead of supplying a drug that has been in use since 1945. Presumably bureaucrat is waiting for the correct forms in the right font from another bureaucrat.
You get the impression that they are not keen on stopping this pandemic for some reason.
Ian W
Or possibly it’s already in use by the “medical community in the west” , and it’s not “news” at all? Or maybe it’s one of numerous treatment pathways just now being tried on ever larger numbers and without significant data to support one or another as a silver bullet the CDC is behaving responsibly?
My neighbor Occam is with you, it’s the evil worldwide mortician’s cabal and their snake obsessed hippocratean brethren.
MarkW, just like in global warming, in the medical community there are people on both sides of the issue, and with differing vested interests. It would be difficult to hide a potential treatment that is already widely available and used by many people, especially in tropical countries.
No Roy. The Medical Industry is in it for the money which explains why there are unbelievable gross errors in medical treatment.
A case in point was the discovery that most stomach ulcers were caused by bacteria by an Australian pathologist.
The standard treatment, prior to his discovery, for ulcers has drugs that did not work followed by surgery to cut the nerves to the stomach.
The medical industry did everything possible to try and stop the discovery, including legal action against the scientists. What changed the tide was a show on 60 minutes and some high level intervention at a political level.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/oct/03/research.highereducation
“Do you really believes that doctors and scienists world wide, are only in it for the money?”
climate scientists agree
Since the climate science are pushing science that is disproven and the only one who benefits from their work is themselves, the case against climate scientists has been proven.
The really sad part is that steve actually believes that since most doctors aren’t crooks, this proves that all climate scientists aren’t crooks.
Then again, steve has never been able to handle even simple logic.
So do logical fallacies.
I got news for ya. Most MDs ARE in it for the money. Even the ones that start off altruistic by the time they do school internship and often multiple residencies, they can end up pretty cynical in the end.
Off topic AND trolling? A tough combination, Mr. M.
And Docs are NOT just in it for the money. They’re in it for the girls. Which doesn’t seem to apply to CliSci’s.
Steven,
Here is a better case, an entire field of medicine where the chemical treatment is worst than placebos and cause long term chemical brain damage.
What is more interesting is the standard medical treatment for depression prior to chemicals… was exercise, isolation, rest, which cured almost all of the depressed. ‘
The prior depressed people were interviewed, they said they felt good inside their bodies, wise, calm inside. They slept better. The body logically was a natural cure for depression which is a kind of transformation.
So it is worse than causing harm. It is hid good.
The general publicās beliefs concerning the mind and psychoactive drugs is primarily based urban legends, on industry created propaganda.
There are almost a hundred different books concerning the scandal. Whitakerās book is one the best written.
https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Epidemic-Bullets-Psychiatric-Astonishing/dp/1491513217
Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America
āThis plague of disabling mental illness has now spread to our children, too. In 1987, there were 16,200 children under eighteen years of age (William: In the US) who received an SSI (William: SSI social security disability insurance) payment because they were disabled by a serious mental illness.
But starting in 1990, the number of mentally ill children began to rise dramatically, and by the end of 2007, there were 561,569 such children on the SSI disability rolls.
In the short span of twenty years, the number of disabled mentally ill children rose thirty-five fold (William: and the prescriptions of psychoactive drugs to children has also risen by 35 times).
Mental illness is now the leading cause of disability in children, with the mentally ill group comprising 50 percent of the total number of children on the SSI rolls in 2007.ā
Comment: The number of adults in the US on social disabled insurance for mental āillnessā has increased by a factor of 4 for the same period which roughly matches the increase in prescription of psychoactive drugs.
It’s okay Mosher is safe he is taking his vitamin D which is scientifically proven and doesn’t need anything else š
What’s going to be interesting, LdB, is if WuFlu begins to wane as the days begin to lengthen, as is what usually happens with flu.
Well, I’m going to comment on the orientation of the medical community.
The medical community is composed of many well-meaning and good-intentioned individuals. However, since first setting foot in medical school they’ve been taught a paradigm of treating disease with pharmaceuticals, which, properly taken, are the fourth or sixth leading cause of death. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9555760 The reason for this orientation is that the drug companies have a great interest in selling drugs and have the lobbying and marketing power to fund new laboratories, endow chairs, fund educational programs, influence legislation etc., etc. The drug companies also have huge influence over the medical journals, which Richard Horton, MD., editor of the Lancet, called the “information-laundering” arm of the pharmaceutical industry. The criticisms of Marcia Angell, MD, former assistant editor of the NEJM, against the corrupting influence of the pharmaceutical industry on medical practice have been devastating, but largely ignored.
As readers of Climate, Etc., will know, I’ve pushed for considering vitamin C in treating COVID-19 as this has been used successfully to treat acute respiratory distress by Drs. Marik and Fowler in the US, by some European doctors, by Chinese doctors, and is a recommended treatment for COVID-19 by the Shanghai medical community and is being used by some other Chinese doctors outside of Shanghai to treat COVID-19. Vitamin C is also a remarkably safe ingredient; all of us have it in out bodies or else we’d be dead. You can take grams of it per day with no side effects: personal experience.
We’ve also heard of chloroquine, which acts as an ionophore for zinc to get inside of cells and destroy COVID-19, and that’s getting some news.
It makes sense that we should use vitamin C and chloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19, and keep track of what effect this is having and share the information, in a time of emergency and general panic and economic collapse. The risk is minimal, the reward is huge; seems like a no-brainer. What do we have to lose? We don’t have time for double-blind clinical trials right now, and the nay-sayers are being a bit too prudish in a time of crisis.
Here’s a good summary of the biology of vitamin C as a vasopressor and how it seems to work in mitigating septic shock and the reason that it’s being recommended for the treatment of COVID-19, aside from its widely-recognized antioxidant effects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA7obbfGg_o So, we know this isn’t voodoo science; it makes sense biologically. Think you’re going to hear about vitamin C on the evening news?
Doctors in Russia are primarily women because they care more (their men go into the military where the prestige and money are found).
Doctors in the US primarily are men and are interested in a 6-figure income–they treat their patients more like billable clients.
If you haven’t noticed it, then you are indeed blessed with an altruistic doctor, which I believe is the exception rather than the rule.
Wrong. Not even close.
This is not 1950.
https://www.athenahealth.com/knowledge-hub/practice-management/healthcare-future-female
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/women-are-now-a-majority-of-entering-medical-students-nationwide/2018/01/22/b2eb00e8-f22e-11e7-b3bf-ab90a706e175_story.html
….insufficient gin reserves…..
Should we have a national Strategic Ethanol Reserve?
If you run out of Gin, Vodka-Tonic works well also and with a Float of Galliano it becomes a COVID WALLBANGER
Add FIZZ to the end.. 19 letters.
Apparently its current use, available since 1945, shows minimal adverse side effects.
People who have adverse to Lovastatin/oyster mushrooms should be cautious tho.
(lovastatin is like 70% oyster mushroom) Both tonic and oyster shroom blow my heart rate through the roof… 145/m resting in blown aircon.
It’s kinda funny, but not too funny.
This drug has a long list of side effects and warnings, some of them severe.
Overdose is listed as being a medical emergency calling for immediate inducement of vomiting.
This stuff may be “safe” for someone with malaria to take, but it sure does not sound Safe.
Here, do not take my word for it:
“Tell your doctor or get medical help right away if you have any of the following signs or symptoms that may be related to a very bad side effect:
For all uses of chloroquine:
Signs of an allergic reaction, like rash; hives; itching; red, swollen, blistered, or peeling skin with or without fever; wheezing; tightness in the chest or throat; trouble breathing, swallowing, or talking; unusual hoarseness; or swelling of the mouth, face, lips, tongue, or throat.
Signs of liver problems like dark urine, feeling tired, not hungry, upset stomach or stomach pain, light-colored stools, throwing up, or yellow skin or eyes.
Signs of low blood sugar like dizziness, headache, feeling sleepy, feeling weak, shaking, a fast heartbeat, confusion, hunger, or sweating.
Trouble controlling body movements.
Restlessness.
Seizures.
Mood changes.
Change in how you act.
Not able to sleep.
Feeling confused.
Hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that are not there).
Change in hearing.
Ringing in ears.
Muscle pain or weakness.
A burning, numbness, or tingling feeling that is not normal.
Fever or chills.
Sore throat.
Any unexplained bruising or bleeding.
Feeling very tired or weak.
A very bad skin reaction (Stevens-Johnson syndrome/toxic epidermal necrolysis) may happen. It can cause very bad health problems that may not go away, and sometimes death. Get medical help right away if you have signs like red, swollen, blistered, or peeling skin (with or without fever); red or irritated eyes; or sores in your mouth, throat, nose, or eyes.
Heart problems like heart failure and abnormal heartbeats have happened in people taking high doses of chloroquine for a long time. Sometimes, these have been deadly. Call your doctor right away if you have a fast or abnormal heartbeat; very bad dizziness or passing out; or shortness of breath, a big weight gain, or swelling in the arms or legs”
https://www.drugs.com/cdi/chloroquine.html
There are several side effects that are possible deadly or life threatening, and some others like blindness or hearing loss that do not sound very great.
Just sayin’
First do no harm.
Lots of things kill viruses in a glass dish.
% of people who take chloroquinine and suffer severe side effects ?
% of people with corona virus infection and suffer severe side effects [death]?
I do not know and I said as much.
I was adding to the simply worded description of the drug as “safe”.
It has a long list of side effects.
I said nothing about their incidence, and I also said numerous times that safe means different things in different contexts.
This stuff is too dangerous to give to people in organ failure, as the guidelines for the four European countries linked below shows.
This is what I get from work !
I have to agree with Nicholas on this one. I’ve been doing technical writing for numerous pharmacies for 15+ years now, and while I’ve never taken chloroquine, I’ve written about it dozens of times. It absolutely does have serious—and potentially deadly—side effects. Sure most are not super-common (if taken as directed), but they do exist, and calling this medication ‘safe’ is a misnomer at best. Not saying don’t take it—just use appropriate caution, especially if self-medicating.
That said, it is unavailable in some locations. You should be able to find it online, though who knows how long it will be available there.
General P. Malaise March 19, 2020 at 5:43 pm
Did you not see the dose that is needed for covid-19 treatment? It is less than 2 percent of that which is used for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Maybe you didn’t know that the dose makes the poison? The probability of significant harmful effects in pretty much everybody must be near zero if there aren’t near universal and serious side effects in those taking a fifty times greater dose for years.
Better to say “well-understood safety profile” than “safe”. That is what I understand most people to be saying when they say it’s “safe”. Truly, no drug is safe in all circumstances and all dosages.
Depends how much gin you add.
compared to Plaquenil which I was put on(another newer antimalarial used for rheumatoid arthritis)
didnt do much for the aches and nearly sent me blind
its an old/known/and safer med and would be able to be made as generic by now.
just hunted my old med bottle out
plaquenils a brandname
it took about 7 days? for me to be unable to see clearly and start to have swelling in the face
on 2 200mg 2x a day
so for very short use to save a life might be worth the risk but otherwise, no way
Not sure its related to your eyesight, but chloroquine and its metabolite hydroxychloroquine accumulate in pigmented tissues including the uveal tract of the eye. Half-life is many months.
You have to take it for very long periods for it to affect vision, like several years.
Mike
Half-life of many months may explain why my legs have been so slow to recover from a condition that only took a couple of months to present.
tty
You said, “You have to take it for very long periods for it to affect vision, like several years.” Then why was my rheumatologist insisting on checking me annually?
I presume that some safety margin is in order. And the effect is progressive, so an annual check is completely in line with what I wrote.
It may be that for most people, it takes a long time to have vision problems, but if you read through the safety literature on this drug, it may be “safe”, but it does not exactly sound Safe.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/plaquenil-10-things-you-should-know-190228
Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine) is considered an older DMARD (disease modifying anti-rheumatic drug). Plaquenil was actually first classified as an antimalarial drug, but it is also used to treat certain rheumatic and autoimmune conditions which are unrelated to malaria. Generally, Plaquenil is a treatment option as monotherapy (used alone) for mild rheumatoid arthritis or as combination …
Kind of odd that it is a treatment for RH, but is known to cause severe outbreak of psoriasis in people with that condition.
Most medicines that help with one of those conditions have at least some benefit for those people with the other.
See: RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS,
By J. CHARLTON BRISCOE, M.D., F.R.C.P.,
The British Medical Journal, MARCH 11, 1911.
https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/1/2619/544.full.pdf
I don’t know whether the phosphate has the same concerns, but the hydroxychloroquine sulfate has a number of know side effects and contraindications.
https://medicaments.tips/hydroxychloroquine-uses-dosage-how-to-take-side-effects-and-interactions/3/
I was prescribed the sulfate for osteoarthritis in my thumbs. The rheumatologist was most concerned about a possible change in my color vision. However, instead, I apparently did not tolerate it well and quickly saw an increase in my systolic blood pressure along with probable neurological damage involving the muscles in my legs. The known side effects are probably why it is only available by prescription.
Both have similar side effect profile, but I could not readily find out what the specific incidence of these side effects was.
But a bunch of bad sounding ones, were listed as “common side effects include”.
Others like blindness and death were listed as less common.
I have made this point whenever talking at length about antivirals and such.
Many things that are life savers are actually on the toxic side, but the conditions they treat are far worse, such that it is deemed a good risk by some.
But not for others.
A lot of people with Hep C destroying their liver were unable to take interferon and ribavirin, to give one example.
Unable and many others were unwilling after hearing about the side effects. Many doctors would not prescribe that regiment, telling patients with hep C to wait.
Eventually Pharmasset invented sofosbuvir, and Gilead bought them out and combined it with some other drugs to make a safe and nearly 100% effective cure for hep C.
Pegylated interferon alfa and ribavirin is a brutal regiment.
Between it being very obvious that sofosbuvir was a miracle drug, and it being avaialbe as a combination therapy drug that was an effective cure took many more years.
From 2007 to 2014, with people dying every day. More than die from this virus so far.
700,000 die every year from complications of hep c.
Billions in development.
In this time, dozens of drugs that appeared able to wipe out the hep C virus were put into clinical trials. Most were a bust, and they were only a small subset of the ones that killed the virus in vitro.
This story is repeated for every illness known.
Its proven to work, yet the WHO, say nothing works, only the very expensive Remdesivir š And that if we want a cure then normal people must give money towards research…
Chloroquine costs 10cents a tablet, Professor Didier Raoult the director of the Mediterranean Infection Institute in Marseille, has 40 years experience in the field of viruses and diseases….. He has taken chloroquine for long periods of time as he lived in africa…
Professor Didier Raoult from france, has already done clinical trials on chloroquine and he said In an 18-minute video recorded in front of his students in Marseille, Professor Raoult does not hide his satisfaction. In concrete terms, 24 patients suffering from the coronavirus have agreed to take Plaquenil, one of the trade names for chloroquine. Six days later, only 25% are still carrying the virus. While 90% of those who have not received this treatment are still positive
https://www.francebleu.fr/amp/infos/sante-sciences/coronavirus-le-traitement-a-la-chloroquine-a-marseille-serait-efficace-1584392554?__twitter_impression=true
And from another interview he said, “So, to not give chloroquine, you have to be stuffed”!
Even Belgium is using it on patients, koreas death rate dropped after using chloroquine and zinc, the american James Cai, was given chloroquine on chinese doctors advice, he got well after 4 days from the start of chloroquine…
https://www.levif.be/actualite/sante/coronavirus-une-molecule-vient-au-secours-des-patients-hospitalises/article-news-1265287.html
Proven to work?
Where are the numbers?
There is one standard of evidence regarding such treatments: Double blind clinical trials vs a placebo.
Most people survive the disease.
There is not one word of a scientific nature of any specific benefit to one single specific patient anywhere in this report.
Unfortunately, science takes time. And clinical trials usually take lives.
A public health emergency calls for a change of rules. If this existing, cheap drug shows efficacy, then the public needs to know to buy it for prevention. Anything less is criminal, unless of course it has side effects which are worse.
If everyone starts buying it, then there won’t be any available for those who actually need it.
Think toilet paper.
No one knows if it works without scientific data.
Or don’t you believe in evidence or science?
There is a very long list of things that are “said to work” but that are shown to be worthless in trials.
Ed B,
I am sure you have the best of intentions, and believe what you are suggesting emphatically.
I am also sure that when the stakes are very high, is exactly the wrong time to abandon everything known about how to determine if a treatment has value, and if so how much, and who it helps, who it does not, how much it helps, and any contrary info, like side effects, and clinically significant adverse events.
Medical interventions are very often life and death.
The history of what happens when people jump to unwarranted conclusions is tragic and shocking.
And the history of what happens when proper and due care is taken to find out what works best, so we have a standard of care that can serve as a baseline for improvement, is a long list of often very happy stories in the end.
Nicholas McGinley
I am following reports and scientists on the use of chloroquine, even a sceptic doctor said chloroquine doesn’t work, but after a clinical trial, he has changed his tune and is now going to use it in his hospital, PitiĆ© SalpĆŖtriĆØre. Which is one of the biggest in france…
https://www.urgence-france.com/2020/03/17/urgent-la-pitie-salpetriere-a-paris-passe-ses-patients-sous-chloroquine/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
ā On Twitter, he returned to his position late last week, announcing that new data showed an effectiveness, and that the molecule was going to be used on patients with the new coronavirus at Pity SalpĆŖtriĆØre:āWe are going to start treatment with plaquenil at our COVID + at La PitiĆ©.
How dare those doctors wait until after clinical trials to make up their minds.
Shown an effectiveness?
That is exactly what I am talking about.
How many live with this, vs remdesivir?
Remdesivir saved 13/to 1/2 of the people with Ebola, but the Regeneron monoclonal antibody saved 90%, so remdesivir was rated as “ineffective”.
Saying “even a skeptic doctor said” sounds like the kind of crap warmistas say, and we discount.
I am not a cloroquine skeptic.
I am an agnostic advising people to temper expectations based on anecdotal info.
Doctors with a hospital full of people on respirators are not the best judge of what does or does not have “effectiveness”.
Placebo has a strong effect in nearly every instance, which is why comparing to placebo is the gold standard.
People involved in care are poor judges of efficacy, which is why we need double blind clinical trials.
The “double” in double blind means the caregivers do not know who has been given real drug either.
This was proven to be necessary over many years of confounded results given by people unable, in spite of having the best intentions, of being able to discern what was in fact a real benefit and what was not.
So we do not give a bottle of pills to emergency room doctors, ask them to give it to some people, and tell us what they think, and call it a clinical trial.
This is called compassionate use, and the doctors reports is called “anecdotal”.
That is science.
That is the science of clinical trials in medicine…love it or hate it.
Remdesivir save 1/3 to 1/2 of the people it was given to with Ebola…
Sorry about typos.
I have a lot going on.
“Use of chloroquine (tablets) is showing favorable outcomes in humans infected with Coronavirus including faster time to recovery and shorter hospital stay. “
Little to lose and lots to gain makes the decision easy for medical authorities.
Little to lose?
If other treatments save more people, what will b e lost by using something inferior is “lives”.
That is not nothing, that is everything.
Let me tell you something that many are not aware of: When several drugs are under investigation for the same illness, and one is shown to be obviously more effective than any of the others, all the trials are halted, the study is unmasked, and everyone getting placebo or one of the inferior drugs gets the stuff that works best.
Right now there is a long list of medications in trials, and I have not heard any being halted.
Considering the implosion of the world economy, anyone who thinks that there is some conspiracy that would lead doctors to sweep an effective treatment under the rug should get their head examined.
They should be ramping up production of all drugs in trial, given the stakes.
And the protocols should be written to be rigorous and strict, and the results examined very carefully, and then acted on quickly.
The reason so much time is taken for clinical trials is because of all the things that can go wrong or make people reach erroneous conclusions or ignore well known principles learned over many decades.
One trial in China, BTW, is a drug called thalidomide being tested vs Wuhan Flu.
See here:
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=thalidomide&cond=coronavirus
There are at least 110 separate trials under way or listed by not started yet, for this illness.
Nicholas McGinley: “Let me tell you something that many are not aware of: When several drugs are under investigation for the same illness, and one is shown to be obviously more effective than any of the others, all the trials are halted, the study is unmasked, and everyone getting placebo or one of the inferior drugs gets the stuff that works best.”
Wait a minute. In a double-bind placebo controlled trial, we don’t know what’s working until the study is over. That’s the point of double-blinding. If one trial is over and it’s clear that one treatment is vastly superior to the placebo or to other treatments, then yes, it’d make sense to halt the other trials and give patients the treatment that clearly works. But, we aren’t there.
Testing using thalidomide? The drug that caused serious birth defects when given to pregnant women? Seriously?
In times like this, it makes sense to use what works clinically, to keep track, to communicate, and try to figure out what’s working in a clinical setting. Clinical trials simply take too long and time is not what we have right now.
Actually, there are designs for studies that have interim evaluations, done by statisticians separate from the clinical investigators, so that a study that quickly develops overwhelming evidence in favor of (or against) a treatment can be terminated early.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941608/
Yes, proven to work. Raoult knows his business:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=819&v=n4J8kydOvbc&feature=emb_logo
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-19.pdf
Analysis paralysis
It’s a new study. Do you expect WHO to give out information before it’s known?
MarkW
Don’t over-estimate the WHO.
One should note tha Chloroquine has been proven ineffective as a Malaria Drug in some parts of the world. Another drug has replaced it in those areas. So if one is taking a malaria drug one should not assume it is effective for the virus as it may not be Chloroquine….
Artemisin is the newest antimalrial from a variant of wormwood plant, cheap and effective being used widely in India and china
hmm
maybe thats why India especially is faringbetter
theyre using it for malria already?
Makes me wonder – is the infection rate in areas where malaria is common and many take quinine routinely lower? I’ve been surprised that India has had such a low infection rate so far. Could it be because malaria is common there?
The malaria virus converted to be resistant, that’s why
Malaria is not viral, it isn’t even bacterial. it is a trypanosome, an eukaryotic protozoan.
And yes, they (there are more than one species) have become resistant to chloroquine in many areas.
Incidentally I can vouch for the absence of dangerous side effects of chloroquine. I have used it for longish periods several times in malarial areas, and never noticed any side effects at all, though it is known to affect visual acuity when used long-term (=years).
tty
At best, you can vouch for it being safe with you. However, there is a reason for the long list of potential side-effects that is provided with the prescription. I have had the opposite experience.
What Clyde said.
One person taking something means that that person knows how they personally are affected.
I have to disagree from personal experience I started seeing halos around lights in around 1 week
at week 2 I went to put my glasses on and they were feeling weird
my flesh on my face had swollen to around 1/4inch and my specs legs were pressing into my face
so yes my already poor eyesight might have been making me more susceptible however browsing pages last night on other patient reviews of that med others also reported similar in short timeframes as well. not a lot but its NOT uncommon if around 3 or 4 in 30+ mentioned it. others had bad leg pains etc some had gut issues.
would I take it again? hmm iffy as one reaction like that usually means dont try that again
Id bet remdesivir is expensive
and I havent looked at its adverse event profile yet but prob would considerit as preferable if forced to.
When the stakes are live and death, and two drugs provide benefit, and one is very very cheap and one is very very good, or even just somewhat better, which does a person choose?
When it is their own life or a loved one, I think few would say…use the cheap stuff.
I have taken chloroquine on a number of occasions as a (New World) malaria preventative and as a treatment and/or preventative for giardia.
At the dosage for preventing malaria I found it gave me vivid, memorable dreams but had no obvious additional effects in the 14 days period.
At the (probably much higher) treatment dosage it bothered my sleep. A friend who was taking the same dose started to see oncoming cars in the head-on-collision part of a dark divided highway. After “dodging a few” she figured out they were not real; she was hallucinating them into the mix of safe-in-their-own-lane on-coming traffic. She had to park and call for a ride. And stop taking the drug.
So if I understand the dosage suggested for the current virus as being well under the 500mg/day for giardia treatment, I should not worry about this side-effect. If it is the higher end dosage, your mileage may vary.
Indeed – when I first visited South Africa I was recommended to take Lariam as a prophylactic. Unfortunately that can have some rather unpleasant side effects, and I suffered from a couple of them. There is always a balance to be drawn between a drug’s powers and its side effects.
Yes, Lariam has a rather bad reputation for side effects, including long-lasting psychoses. Personally I have never noticed anything worse than a slightly upset stomach, but I have seen a couple of fairly serious cases.
That is why it is recommended to start taking Lariam a week in advance, so as to be able to switch medication if necessary.
Oh I forget these two papers… first link is the same paper elon musk posted on twitter, but the paper came out before musk made his comments..
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0
In addition to banning the export of chloroquine, the UK is gearing up for a study sponsored by Oxford to test chloroquine prophylaxis among 10,000 healthcare workers. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04303507
China is returning to normal as well. The West has completely overreacted I blame all the politicians left and right and media for basically destroying the lives of millions (ie retirees funds stock market, airlines ect). I wonder if media will report this cure bet they wont.
Eliza
Image if the news media told the real figures.
There are, 7,794,798,739 people on this planet so far in 2020, 188 thousand have the virus, but over 80,873 have recovered, with 93,561 in mild condition, which isn’t looked upon as series, or needing treatment.. Italy’s average death rate is 81 š
This site gives daily numbers…. Were I got the figures from…
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Averaging Italy’s death rate paints a very distorted picture. . .
Is that 81 a long term death rate or the Covid-19 death rate since the first death/case/something?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/ notes 349 Covid-19 deaths yesterday (3/16). Recently their new cases have been growing exponentially 21% per day (it used to be 34%!) Given that it takes about two weeks for someone to die from Covid-19, recent cases may be dying at around 500/day in a couple weeks.
Unless someone gives them Chloroquine.
But of course it is more important that a full clinical trial with the right number of annexes in the right font is made available. Clinical evidence of efficacy is not valid unless recorded and counter signed and published in the correct annual journal.
They gave something to two dozen people. They all lived.
What is proven?
By the way, that is for IV vitamin C…which is in every store n the world.
Maybe we oughta find out for sure, and not let laypeople on the internet rewrite 100 years of accumulated knowledge of how to determine what is what.
Assuming the new data from China is accurate, China is only returning to normal because they applied remedies that are much more extreme than the remedies that you are labeling as an over reaction.
Wonder if it’s the same method employed for UK hoof-and-mouth; as in, “all positives disappear.”
Usually burned, than bulldozered into ditches!
More like a complete lock down of everybody for 2 weeks.
You were referring to what they did to the cattle. Now I get it.
In the US, for about 150 years, sick animals and crops have been burned immediately and to the last one when a dangerous disease was found.
And that is one reason why for many decades the US has had the most productive agriculture and the safest place to raise herds of animals in the world.
Burning diseased animals in open air isn’t always the best thing to do. Lets not talk about why the US needs imported Australian bee queens.
That was very illuminating.
Thank you for the benefit of your knowledge.
It is not accurate. The numbers are about 10 times higher than claimed. Part of the problem was saying “confirmed cases” when there was many more unconfirmed cases.
I would like to hear from Steven Mosher on this. Do we have any information that would support the idea that the number of reported cases is quelled, and in what ways?
I have been saying that in the US the number of cases will go up both because reporting has been virtually non-existent, (no testing available, no wide area testing even as of today) – and it will in fact spread. Unfortunately, it is pretty straightforward to report deaths due to Covid 19, just not so easy to report what we are not measuring. This naturally leads to data that show a terribly inflated mortality rate.
Bingo Mario. I feel there are many unreported cases. We will never know. They recovered.
Derg: Thank you for acknowledging this. I hear very little about this, but a week or two ago, someone wrote an article about the “denominator” which is the term I used arguing with someone with a masters degree in engineering. His response was, unbelievably, that the denominator has nothing to do with mortality rate… then he went off into using another term, morbidity and how it was dangerous because of yadda, yadda. The level of intellectual blindness to cogent discourse is hard to believe!
Eventually they will develop an anti-body test, and will be able to test for people who have had the disease. They will then be able to make pretty good estimates of what percentage of the population was infected and from that give good estimates of mortality.
In other words, in a year or two.
The antibody test! Yes, I want to conclude whether or not I had it since it could only be deduced for me when I got it.
I want to do my part and increase the denominator!
As far as the denominator angle it is certainly important to know so we can get accurate reading on how many get it, how many succumb and how many don’t. That is the only true way to measure mortality rate. But at this point we don’t know the denominator, plus the many that are currently affected we don’t know their ultimate outcome. So it’s a very fluid science determining the infectious rate and mortality rate.
comsic: Agreed, and that we are starting to ramp up our testing, it is weighted towards people who are showing symptoms and are concerned. So people with minor or no symptoms will be counted at a much lower rate. As (or if) the testing becomes ubiquitous, the statistics will be somewhat more in favor of a reduced mortality rate. Now if I could only guess within an order of magnitude what it will really be… I feel “very” confident it will be 1% or less. If it ends up less than 0.1%, the panic will subside and we can get on with knowing that risk is always there, and as humans we cannot be paralyzed by fear. Think The Matrix…
Doubtful it will be 0.1 percent.
It will be lower for places that can bend the curve so that everyone who gets viral pneumonia has either a hospital bed or a ICU slot…IOW if everyone who gets sick gets the very best care that modern medicine can give them.
The death rate in Italy has risen in lockstep with the number of people who are in excess of available ICU beds.
Plus, right now in the US hundreds of people and more every day are either in trials or getting compassionate use of remdesivir.
It do not know how many, but it was in the several hundred getting compassionate use in the US alone of remdesivir, and there are a large number of trials in which hundreds of others are getting it as part of a clinical trail protocol.
The news will be coming any time now.
Be patient.
Jumping to conclusions will cost lives.
If you are not sick now, it is well known how to not get sick.
Stay home, watch TV, yell at people on the interwebs, or study complicated subjects and educate some people
If you’re young and healthy, me thinks it’s not that bad. As deadly as driving a car or combined odds of all viruses? no. But time will tell.
Well, consider Influenza confirmed cases this season is about 220,000+/- with about 20,000+/-confirmed deaths. All other numbers claiming infections in the millions are merely from models/guesses/projections, some maybe even from Yogi Bear (RIP).
Which makes the flu’s death rate of confimed cases to be about 10%.
Compare that to the frightening numbers of the Wuhan virus. Remember, when comparing things one must always use the same base. Which is what those old sayings of apples and oranges is all about.
With the Wuhan, lots and lots of claims and comparisons are made and I’ve yet to see any that compare the same sets of numbers by classification. As in “confirmed” cases.
And, for another comparison, consider the Boomer effect. A truly huge demograph are entering their elder years making just number counting an exercise in deceit.
Then there’s the overall state of health in the West: the sickest batch of humans to ever trod the Earth. Obesity epidemic. Diabetes epidemic. Alzheimer epidemic. Age related macular degeneration epidemic. Cardio vascular epidemic. And the list goes on. Allhave dramatic negative impacts on the immune system which, in humans, have evolved to fight off the viruses we waller in every day. If this is a sample of how the West is going to behave, then …
Number for influenza in the US are for pneumonia and influenza.
And they are estimates, per the CDC. They give a separate number every year for confirmed cases of flu.
It is a fraction of the number given in mortality stats.
CDC, estimated flu: over 30,000 in the US in 2017
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
Confirmed deaths from flu, 6,515 in 2017″
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm
See CDC’s weekly influenza reports here (scroll down)
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm
From that page:
144 children have died attributed to the flu but don’t state how they confirmed the deaths.
The numbers tested represent “confirmed” which means the 222,552 were confirmed cases and constituted 20.7% of the tests (1,075,130)
It’s not clear what death toll they used or how derived. They state 20,000 adults which likely is a guess or it could be 15,000 using their 7.1%.
Regardless, the confirmed cases and either of their death counts still would make the current flu deaths to Wuhan deaths still be the flu killing about twice as many people as the Wuhan.
Oh, and the only thing they lump together on the surveillance report are the total respiratory tests with the flu and pneumonia class including flu and 1/3 of the pneumonia cases caused by the flu. Which makes sense since flu only plus pneumonia caused by the flu are all flu caused. It would turn logic completely on it’s head to include pneumonia only embedded within flu + flu induced pneumonia.
And the issue, regardless of whether sloppy CDC (mixing in all pneumonia), why are they not using the same baseline (confirmed lab tested cases) since the death rates are similar or would show the Wuhan, so far, at worst is simply not very bad. Perhaps you can discern?
Death rates from flu are generally reckoned to be around 0.1%. And they are probably much lower than that as too many deaths are attributed to flu and too few people are counted as having been infected.
I wonder if you have any idea of how to read a report and know what you just read?
Eliza,
China’s data, at least early data, is atrocious.
Given the debacle over testing in the US, I’d call it atrocious, but it’s a lot better than China’s.
I think the US hasn’t overreacted to the pandemic, but I’m confident Wall Street has. Unlike 2008, I actually have some cash to invest in a mutual fund that might be good for me. I bought some at $23/sh. It dropped to $20, so I bought more. Dollar cost averaging and all that.
Pandemics only last a couple months, maybe longer with significant social distancing, so I expect the stock market to roar back a lot sooner than the typical Wall Street over-reactor does.
Perhaps if China hadn’t interrogated and threatened doctors and arrested reporters who began to sound alarm, the outbreak would have been contained.
Agreed Scissor. I am HIGHLY skeptical of any numbers or reports coming from China. That is an authoritarian regime that will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to stay in power. That includes killing.
In order to cover up the governments initial inept response, Xi has been making a big deal about how he now has everything under control.
It would be very embarrassing for him to have the official numbers contradict the new official story.
“….I am HIGHLY skeptical of any numbers or reports coming from China. That is an authoritarian regime that will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to stay in power. That includes killing…..”
Remind me again how this differs from any Western government….
Really? Got proof to back up your leftists stupidity? Thought not.
The Spanish flu of 1918 lasted for two years.
And in three waves, Mark. One the first winter, just like this one. The second was the biggest, beginning in the next fall. The third and smallest was the following winter.
It doesn’t matter whether the media reports it. If it’s being spread within the medical community, that’s all that matters.
Iām guessing 100% of the worldās supply is made in a single plant in China.
Pittzer
Nope, the uk and usa produce it.. its very very cheap, with india staying even the poor can afford to buy chloroquine. Its a few rupees per tablet.
I’m pretty sure that was sarcasm.
Cannot believe this The Australians are claiming they found this first!!! https://www.livemint.com/news/world/coronavirus-update-australian-researchers-claim-2-existing-drugs-could-cure-covid-19-11584369580246.html
“Could”.
Funny how a weasel word become veritable proof if it is something you want to believe in \with all your heart.
The difference between this “could” and the CAGW “could” is the difference in spending a few cents a dose for a few days and destroying the world economy leading to the deaths of 4 or 5 billion people by design.
If that is the only difference you see, I hope you are not in charge on public health anywhere.
Just sayin.
IMO, could means could.
And this could is life and death.
Interesting because this Australian researcher does not register in the field at all… While Didier Raoult does, at the top of the field.
http://expertscape.com/ex/communicable+diseases%2C+emerging
In a comment on the Diamond Princess story, Willis had this to say:
And malaria has what in common with a viral infection?
Do read the studies. It’s about changing blood pH. The virus doesn’t handle the pH change well.
Same thing as the solution in The Andromeda Strain, though I don’t recommend drinking methanol aka “sterno”.
Don’t forget to take your zinc supplements with it. This explains the process and studies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7F1cnWup9M
Zinc tabs were on back order a week ago at Amazon.
zinc works about as well as the riskier antivirals w/out the side effects, i always hit it when a cold/flu starts up
It appears from the MedCram video that zinc is the agent which actually inhibits the virus’ replication; the Chloroquine acts to open up the cell pathway, allowing zinc to get in.
Zinc not named in the two studies Anthony posted … so maybe Chloroquine is able to do the trick alone by some other means?
The South Koreans appear to have recommended Chloroquine regimens in all levels of infection by mid-February.
Anyone know if it’s being used in Italy?
ozspeaksup
My personal experience is that zinc gluconate works very well for aborting viral infections, if taken immediately for a couple of days.
I bought some today at a local pharmacy.
that is a very irresponsible response. Rather than “referencing” a YouTube video, please reference a peer-reviewed study that shows that zinc blocks ACE2.
[disclosure: I spent 10 years doing R&D on detecting biological agent use by terrorist organizations. I’m not a toxicologist, but I worked with several world-class experts on the topic]
This drug treatment is based on old knowledge. See (2005) “Chloroquine is a porent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection”; free full text on-line.
Synopsis of serving to stymie infection getting in & knock-out infection if got in = “… interfers with glucosylation of … [entry receptor] …. ACE2 … ” (virus uses ACE2 to get inside cell) …. And drug once “… inside cell becomes pronated … raising cellular endosome pH … [so] … virus can’t fuse …. [with endosome] … [and can’t] … replicate ….”
And for some, albeit probably a minority, the patient doesnāt handle the pH change well either. It isn’t a cure all, even if it does work for most.
I read the studies Anthony.
I am well aware of the data on zinc, and have keeping up with it been since the 1980s.
If it turns out en existing drug could have prevented all of this, we will all have plenty of time to shake our heads about it.
Quinine is alao available in Butter Lemon,
But the formula is different: C20-H24-N2-O2
than mentioned above.
Bitter Lemon has at least 2 variations, with Quinine Aroma or with extract. So look for the right one š
OH, NO! The carbon pollution (C20) is plainly unacceptable.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is successful, why are so many Italians dying. That is a real question BTW.
They drink beer and wine, not gin and tonic,
concur.
I think Russia’s experience – less than 100 cases, what’s up with that! – indicates that copious internal application of ethyl alcohol is called for.
š
This is great news ! As researchers all around the world work on the virus, new drugs and treatment protocols will be developed to reduce mortality rate. People generally underestimate the power of research.
Another promising drug is Favilavir
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/17/c_138887971.htm
If quinine is partially effetive then maybe they should trial ‘Artenam’ which is probably the most powerful treatment for Malaria.
I do not see one single specific numerical or comparative analysis in this entire report.
It does not give any specific information whatsoever.
This in fact appears to be what is called “anecdotal” information.
It simply says this stuff works great, so use it.
I would not be getting very excited about this.
It reads the same as the reports saying vitamin C has been used and works great.
if it reads like a bot … placed everywhere like a bot …
It is bullshit like this that have caused people to run to Mexico to get treated with Laetrile for cancer.
This is not science, and it is surely not how anything is proven to be efficacious.
There is only one standard for such statements as “It works”: Double blind randomized clinical trials vs a placebo, analyzed by independent reviewers.
Listening to the people here reading this and concluding that they just read something significant makes me ill.
Sure, why think believe a drug that costs money and is in clinical trials is needed?
These reports say “It works”, so what more do we need?
Wrong.. see video I posted below. It works by allowing Zn++ into the cell which shuts down the RNA replication phase. There is a blind study put out by Stanford of 60 patients. 30 were given chloroquine and were virus free after 6 days, the 30 not given still had it after 6 days. Korea and China both have published studies.
Chloroquine has been around for 70 years and doesn’t need “safety” testing. It has been proven safe. And it costs about 5 cents per tablet. Recommended protocol is 10 500mg tablets over 10 days or 2 400mg over 10 days depending on Korea or China.
Do a little investigating before posting please.
“Recommended protocol is 10 500mg tablets over 10 days ”
500mg daily CQ dosage presents risk of retinal fovial damage
https://www.aao.org/clinical-statement/revised-recommendations-on-screening-chloroquine-h
So, 1% if you are using it for five years. Seems to me that ten days is quite a bit shorter than five years? (Okay, some days are longer than others…)
Now, undoubtedly, a tiny fraction of people would have an immediate adverse reaction. But that is the exact same garbage contrary argument as the anti-vaxxer nutcases. That would indicate to me that it perhaps should not be used as a general prophylactic, only for those (pretty much healthcare workers) who cannot avoid exposure. Others only as a treatment.
This is good news. There is a possible treatment that has already been through a massive Phase I (safety) trial, which the vaccine is barely starting. Phase II (efficacy) can be (has been) started immediately. IF bureaucrats will only get out of the way.
Foveal damage is only a problem with long-term use, like several years.
I did a lot more that a little investigating RBA babcock.
I have studied these subjects for years, and I know how reports are written that have scientific value regarding drugs under investigation for treating infectious diseases.
I suggest you take your own advice.
Works in vitro is not the same as cures sick people.
Thousands of compounds kill stuff in cell cultures and even animals but have proven worthless in humans who are sick or about to die.
What this is, is a basis for investigations, not proof of anything.
Get a grip.
I know exactly what I am talking about.
So do the full clinical trials. Until these are completed, practicing physicians should prescribe it “off label” based on clinical judgement and currently available evidence when indicated.
Its safety and side effect profile is already well known, it is currently available, and more can be manufactured quickly.
The alternative of not using a promising medication in an emergency situation, simply because randomized placebo controlled double-blind studies haven’t been published yet for this indication, is absurd.
Nicholas-
Of course you are right. If you want “scientific proof” that a treatment works you need the double blind clinical trials. But the conclusions of the papers cited are not the same as your neighbor saying “I had “x” and did “y” and got better. Therefore, “y” cured my “x”. They were the result of treating some patients with Chloroquine and some without Chloroquine. The Chloroquine patients seemed to fair better.
Let me put it to you this way: YOU have Wuhan virus. YOU are in the hospital on a ventilator. The doctor comes to YOU and says ” We can continue to treat you as best we can, or we can try giving you Chloroquine and zinc, which seems to have helped other patients. ” What are YOU going to say? “No, because it has not been proven to be effective in a double blind test” or “Hell yes, I try anything”
I am going to say “give me the remdesivir”.
Because I have been keeping up with all that is known.
And I have been involved with doing clinical trials of investigation medications in the treatment of infectious diseases for about 15 years.
I did my first internship with a medical professional when I was 15, when my father, who was a medical writer and publisher and on the faculty at a major teaching hospital, got me an internship with the chairman of the Department Of Neuroanatomy at Hahnemenn Medical College and Hospital.
And I have learned a lot about a lot since then.
His name was Dr Dennis DePace, so you can check, if that sounds preposterously unlikely.
It would to me if I was you.
Hi Nicholas. Just wondering after I saw your experience at Hahnemenn. don’t know if you know this or not but I was told by a prominent homeopath that the homeopathic remedy Oscillococcinum was potentized from 3 coronaviruses. Having been involved with homeopathy for 40 years now I would have more faith in this remedy if true.
I really have no idea.
I am sure you are aware of what critics of homeopathy have to say about it.
Hahnemann was a large teaching hospital, and the work Dr. DePace was doing involved research on clusters of neurons called ganglia.
My particular task was dissecting out the ganglia of rats he was breeding for purpose, and then preparing slides of the cells…staining, embedding them in wax, slicing with a microtome, etc.
The hospital was named after the man widely regarding, IIRC, as the father of homeopathic medicine, but as far as I know the hospital itself was not focused on such work. It was just a large busy hospital in the downtown of a big city.
Laetrile and vit C are natural sunstances and unpatentable, some research has been done but it has to be hunted for and its not unacceptable results wise
does that give you a hint as to why they wont research more on them?
ditto the plaquenil its long since off patent so to make money theyll patent a combo version using the remdesivir to enable profit from patents.
personally seeing someone in a coma given a deathsentence and then having massive IV vit c used and recovering(NZ H1N1 case documented) not trying something that wont kill and might help IS irresponsible
same as the old Royal Raymond Rife machines using electric frequencies to know conacers off
FDA and other hounded him to death
yet today?
same tech but improved IS found effective useful and being used
as are the drink this green goo(usually seaweed or a chlorophyll mix) wait a while then be irradiated in red/blue light therapies.
Chinas got good clinical results and using it for some yrs
a study in Aus hasnt been updated but I keep an eye out forwhen its completed.
youre faith in the FDA is misplaced
way many iffy meds get approved cos of the stupid pay to play means used for approvals.
I just read theyre NOT inspecting any usa pharmas as of now due to their risk of covid19 to inspectors.
wtf?
with the too common BAD quality control cleanliness etc issues reported on the pharmas watchdog pages, that is a seriously stupid move.
and heres the proof before you say Im making it up
http://t.marketing1.william-reed.com/r/?id=h47b171b9,40ea4a40,40ea4e09&p1=j%2FnIs1FdlzUu5ggkIqpz1Q%3D%3D&p2=
Chloroquine has a hemolytic effect. That’s why it works against malaria. Why would that work against a virus? Are the patients getting better because of the drug, or in spite of it?
David Sinclair from Harvard has a theory about why it might work:
https://twitter.com/davidasinclair/status/1238972086317654019
And there are some other theories in the followup comments.
Biological detergents? Is he talking about glutathione? If there’s enough glutathione in the lungs it will get rid of the viruses. That’s why there’s so much oxidative damage – there’s not enough glutathione in the lungs to prevent that.
https://twitter.com/davidasinclair/status/1238972085214511104
“CoV2 prevents cells from making biological detergents”
Sounds like horses!t to me. Where’s the science behind this claim? Sounds like he pulled it out of his @$$. All cells synthesize glutathione if its precursor amino acids are available – glycine, cysteine and glutamate (plus selenium and magnesium). This guy’s trying to turn science on its head by saying, without any evidence. the virus can prevent that synthesis.
I agree.
The etiology of viral pneumonia is well characterized.
This one appears to do much of the damage to the people it kills due to a late stage cytokine storm type of effect.
Although typically, that term is applied to an effect that happens very quickly when a a strong immune system reacts very powerfully to an infectious agent or a molecule it has not seen yet. IOW…it usually happens very quickly after getting an injection or something or the onset of an infection.
Very surprising though that someone from Harvard could get anything wrong or pull something out of his…um…whereever.
*rolls the eyes^
Agreed, but on the Diamond Princess infection tent only 700 out of 3,00 were infected. They were all tested before they left. Does that mean that,
1. For some people a prior infection of something or other had given immunity?
2. The virus attacks cells in a way that gives it only a narrow pathway, and for many the pathway is too narrow and it just dies.
3. Or something else.
It is a very big virus, I would expect it to be vulnerable.
It is possible more were infected, but tested after they recovered which results in test being negative.
Good point, though people are saying that detection of the virus persists for longer than the duration of this incident.
It may mean that 2,300 were drinking gin and tonics?? };>)
It’s a big ship with ten restaurants I’m pretty sure many never had any contact in the few days (11) before isolation started.
They certainly did after the ‘isolation’ started, it was nothing of the sort. Which is why I called it an infection tent.
Do read the studies. Itās about changing blood pH. The virus doesnāt handle the pH change well.
Same thing as the solution in The Andromeda Strain, though I donāt recommend drinking methanol aka āsternoā.
Does nothing else increase blood pH?
Seems like there’d be more sensible ways to raise blood pH than by blowing up red blood cells in patients who need every molecule of O2 they can get. Maybe they need to monitor patients they’ve given antimalarial drugs to for organ damage due to oxygen starvation.
Chloroquine doesnāt change blood pH like was portrayed in Crichtonās fictional Andromeda strain cure. (Crichtonās Andromeda strain ācureā raised blood pH by altering bicarbonate buffer concentration in blood plasma, the evil CO2 at work.)
Chloroquine is a proteosomal proton pump inhibitor. It slows (H+) proton-pump enzymatic activity that lysosomes use to acidify (increase H+ concentration) compartment for degradations enzymes to function. The pH drop is what triggers a conformational change in the viral fusion protein which the initiates membrane fusion. Corona virus Fusion with the membrane is the second step (after viral attachment to a receptor) in the virus gaining access to the cytosol to release its genomic RNA.
Does a proto pump inhibitor such as pantropazole or emeprazole have a similar effect?
Some 50 people were permanently cured of Wuhan virus in Iran by drinking methanol.
It would be prudent to mention that drinking methanol can cause blindness or death
It works by opening up a pathway for Zn to enter the cells where it disrupts the viral RNA transcription process.
A video explaining it in simple terms is higher up thread.
By a horrible irony, China had to import huge amounts of Chloroquine from Pakistan, reported in Feb. 17 Xinhua, as China has not produced it for 2 decades.
Another related irony is that malaria resistance means another drug must be used for that, also found by China.
Is Tonic Water actually effective?
quinine is not chloroquine. It has a much higher EC50 on proton pump enzymatic activity, that is the quinine concentration has to much higher than the chlorinated-quinine to get the same effect. Quinine is rapidly processed by the liver (oxidized) for excretion by the kidneys.
The quinine concentrations in tonic water are far too low to have any therapeutic effect. It simply adds a bitter taste. The US FDA wouldn’t allow anything approaching a medically-effective dose in a common beverage.
Quinine is not chloroquine.
Fascinating stuff! However, while the drugs are related, quinine is NOT chloroquine. The natural sources mentioned in the article are for quinine, the original natural anti-malarial extracted from the bark of the cinchona tree, rather than chloroquine (which was developed as a substitute for quinine). Whether quinine has the same effect as chloroquine is unclear.
It seems that trials are ongoing with chloroquine derivatives to check on efficacy. Fingers crossed!
I actually have quinine in my med bags, some place. Finally! Being malarial comes in handy.
And guys?!?! Call it what it really is, Wuhan Virus.
Call it Wuhan Flu…
Call it Wuhan Plague.. The death toll will be large before this plays out.
Very convenient for a country that has pursued a demographic time bomb for forty years, to dispose of the unproductive and expensive care of its elderly. While leaving the workers, soldiers, and police force, relatively unscathed. Very convenient and an amazing coincidence.
And you get to dispose of several of your critics, because they will succumb to the invisible threat. And those that don’t will find it easier to toe the party line. That makes certain threats to your power magically disappear. Makes it easier to keep the public in line when they are treated like cattle instead of members of a civilized society.
“Call it Wuhan Fluā¦”
Or WuFlu.
Kung Flu works, too
The bio-chemistry behind the Chloroquine (Zinc Ionophore) treatment is well described by Dr Seheult on the MedCram Coronavirus Pandemic Updates 32 & 34.
Watch this to get a great education on how the virus replicates and why chloroquine will cure it in the cell.
Thanks for this. It appears Koreans are using this in combination with hiv type anti virals as both affect different parts of viral replication. One thing HUV brought the world was greater understanding of viruses.
I would be very cautious drawing conclusions about efficacy with the current data. Without doing well designed, randomized, blinded studies it is not at all certain that anecdotal observations of efficacy are true representations of a drugās value. I am an infectious disease physician and no routine therapeutics are considered indicated as yet for covid-19 except in desperation for patients who are at risk of respiratory failure or death. The vast majority of patients are treated supportively and do just fine. It is too early to draw any conclusions about effective therapies.
I agree but what if a person is very old or has underlying conditions. Would you give it ?
There is zero “well designed, randomized, blinded studies”, or even real studies showing radon in homes is a cancer risk, but that never prevented your EPA from inciting home owners to perform expensive transformations to eliminate that risk. Who is at risk? Those who have “bad genes”? Could that be those who are at risk of breast cancer? See where I’m going?
The request for “well designed, randomized, blinded studies” before something is prescribed is capricious. Where is the evidence that the US treats cancer better than other nation, as peddled by Donald “Big Medicine” Trump? Where is the evidence that all these drugs given to children are not damaging their mind and long term health? I could go on and on and on and on.
“I could go on and on”
And you usually do.
Where is the evidence that the US treats cancer better than other nations?
Survival and cure rates
Where is the evidence that chemo therapies aren’t harming the long term health of children.
1) The studies as well as follow up studies.
2) Would you prefer to have the kids die, rather than have a very small risk of long term complications?
My wife had small cell lung cancer(smokers cancer) even though she did not smoke. That was 20 years ago, she got chemo and radiation therapy at the same time, yes it did affect her, but she is here 20 years later, thirteen years earlier my dad had the same cancer the treatment did not work on him he was a smoker it it was found late. He passed away nine months from his original diagnoses. It would have been nice had the treatment would have work no-mater what damage they would have done, if they had there a good chance he would have lasted twenty years longer. even five would have been nice. Chemo and radiation are a poor way to treat cancer but in most cases that all we got.
Mark is NIceGuy right about radon?
I have never really understood radon.
Radon is assumed to be a risk because it’s radioactive.
It’s a case of the old bug-a-boo, Linear No Threshold (LNT) thinking.
It is assumed that if a large dose of radiation is enough to kill one person, then if 1% that level of radiation is given to 100 people, there will be one extra cancer death.
If 1 millionth that level is given to 1 million people, there will still be one extra cancer death.
Of course the science shows that thresholds do exist and that low levels of radiation are not as dangerous as the activists want to believe.
“Survival and cure rates”
show that in the US people spend money to be drugged and cut and have their healthy lifetime wrecked by medical doctors with zero evidence of avoiding any cancer and lots of evidence of causing more cancer.
“Where is the evidence that chemo therapies arenāt harming the long term health of children.”
Are you willing to go through chemo right now, then?
I’ve seen comments from doctors who say that few doctors will use hydroxy-chloroquine or chloroquine phosphate since there is no FDA approval of those drugs for this type of treatment.
amazing how fast they can OFFlabel approve things
and heres the other product for malaria
wether its at all the same in effect I dunno
but it works for malaria,
https://www.drugs.com/npp/sweet-wormwood.html
The news just came out, and you are whining that they haven’t given off label approval yet.
actually offlabel for plaquenil is already in place ie RA immune skin disorders etc in usa
ozspeaksup
As I recollect, wormwood was what made absinthe poisonous. But then, “The poison is in the dose.”
So is absinthe, therefore potentially better than gin and tonic as a treatment?
mario
I don’t know. I’ve never even tried it. I believe it is illegal in most jurisdictions.
Clyde: I had some in Monterrey a few years ago. I also got a bit drunk. It was hard to tell, but it seemed like a different kind of drunk. Was it placebo? I dunno, bit I needed a few Advil in the morning.
Absinthe has been available again in France for a few years now.
And here in the US too… I had some several years ago and posted about that higher up in this post.
Mario
I believe I remember reading that what is available in the US is created the same way as the original, but is not aged in wormwood casks as was the tradition.
OK, I decided to take the time to educate myself (or at least become as educated as Wikipedia allows): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe
It certainly has a colorful history, if you will pardon the pun.
I did skim that… so sure we now cut corners but, it is mostly the same. And I was being a bit rhetorical with the question… like, I am not going to go start getting drunk unless this shelter in place goes a lot longer. Then maybe… sarc/ š
Many traditional treatments for malaria work by interrupting the development cycle of the parasite (which is very complex). Wormwood may be working on a different mechanism than the antiviral one. Malaria is, after all, not a virus.
It is speculated that any malaria treatment that modifies two genetic mechanisms in the mosquito simultaneously will prevent it being able to mutate successfully around both. The problem is the mosquito which is unique in its inability to resist the pathogen. If we “fix” the mosquito’s normal body protection mechanisms the disease will disappear.
Legally any doctor in the US can prescribe any medication for anything that is appropriate in the judgement of that doctor, and this is not subject to any restrictions.
Doctors can prescribe any approved medication as they see fit.
That is the law.
But no one is gonna shield anyone from liability for giving something that harms them, or when something better was available.
It is important to know the specifics, or all you have is opinions.
Andy Pettullo is exactly right.
We already know the vast majority of patients recover.
So patients recovering proves exactly nothing, as does in vitro studies.
There is a very long list of stories that amply demonstrate why this is critically important to get right.
Now is not the time to get anything wrong.
It never is, but higher stakes means we need to be more careful, although surely we should also not be dragging feet.
At this point the panic is clearly more harmful than the disease, even to the elderly who are seeing their life savings evaporate. The worst case scenario of giving everybody chloroquine would be that it doesn’t change any clinical outcomes but a lot of people stop panicking because now they have a “cure” (although just a placebo). If it is effective, then it would be a huge benefit.
I suspect that we will be hearing more about this tomorrow in the FDA press conference.
If someone takes two much because “If one is good, two is better”, they may die.
Kids have died from as little as twice the recommended dose for an adult.
There are some people that must not take it.
So it could be given, but must be explained and understood by everyone as a powerful drug, which must be used carefully and as directed.
And that is impossible for some people, particularly people who are panicked and hypochondriacs to begin with.
Well, Nicholas, when I carelessly said “giving everybody chloroquine”, I meant administering the drug in a clinical setting, not giving them a bunch of pills to do with as they will. It is after all a prescription drug,
It’s stories like this that ought to put WUWT on the front page of every journalist’s bookmark list in the world. If there was any justice.
Mind you, it is well known that there is no justice…
Looks like there is a slight side effect with the chloroquine it might save you from the virus but you might go blind:
https://play.google.com/store/books/details/David_J_Browning_Hydroxychloroquine_and_Chloroquin?id=C3ceBAAAQBAJ&hl=en-US&gl=us
Dr Norman Page
For the 6 to ten days of treatment, Professor Didier Raoult the director of the Mediterranean Infection Institute in Marseille, has 40 years experience in the field of viruses and diseasesā¦.. He has taken chloroquine for long periods of time as he lived in africa, and states that if given the right dose for the symptoms, there is low chance of any aide effect… His clinical trial saw no effects in recovered patients
The risk of Hydroxychloroquine toxicity leading to progressive blindness appears to be very low (particularly in comparison to dying from acute respiratory failure within 21 days of coronavirus infection).
ā retinopathy is most influenced by daily dose and duration of use. Risk for toxicity is less with <5.0 mg/kg real weight/day for hydroxychloroquine and <2.3 mg/kg real weight/day for chloroquine[2]. Patients are at low risk during the first 5 years of treatment. At recommended doses, the risk of toxicity up to 5 years is under 1% and up to 10 years is under 2%, but rises to nearly 20% after 20 years. However, if a patient has not demonstrated toxicity after the 20-year point, he/she only has a 4% risk of developing toxicity the subsequent year.ā
From the NIH https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32164085
You have to use it for years to have foveal damage. I’ve used it several times for several months back when it was the standard malaria prophylaxis. No side effects at all.
That means YOU have to, not necessarily any generic you.
The side effects are very well known. They are not listing them to be pedantic.
Side effects can be a bit rough if memory serves..
But it was way better than malaria
If this turns out to be valid — and is rapidly adopted as a recommended preventive, it might actually help flatten the curve in the US and elsewhere.
I’d give this a couple of weeks to see if it gains traction.
I have tested positive for malaria for most of my life, since being in North africa in the early 70s….tonic water is my treatment if I begin to feel a bit hinky…..
I don’t put a lot of faith in it Kip….studies about this came out months ago….and they are still not doing it
We’ve only known about this disease for months.
I’ve just ordered 3 x 60 tablets of Quinine Sulfate, might give it a try when the UK’s rate of infection (2000) reaches the current rate of France or Germany (6000+), hopefully the QS is less deadly than covid-19.
Apparently it is used for treating malaria caused by the protozoa Plasmodium falciparum and falciparum malaria resistant to the drug chloroquine
more details here
Chloroquine phosphate is what I use to treat my aquarium fish. I have a bunch on hand.
BTW, somewhat off topic, but does anyone actually know what the Covid-19 hospitalization rate is in the U.S.? This seems like extremely important information and I can’t track it down.
What is the product?
Do NOT eat that aquarium cleaner. It’s completely different and it’s toxic. A man and his wife tried it, he died, she’s critical.
I’ll stick with Zn+Quercetin+CoQ10+EGCG
See Medcram update #35
The raids in stores went for the wrong items. They left the over the counter supplements.
I noticed that all the vitamin C was gone at Walmart. Grape seed extract is loaded with vitamin C and is sold in capsules, and orange juice is readily available.
I expect they will make more vitamin C for the Walmart.
Where did CoQ10 come in all this? Seen Medcram and all this about Zinc and its ionophores to get it inside cells, but never saw anything about CoQ10 in there.
Good news about chloroquine. The cost for Corvid is greater than the medical issues.
The idiots that made up CAGW are activists. Activists cannot understand the big picture as they filter out facts and just repeat their propaganda.
Countries have two crises which they must all face due to Corvid.
Corvid isolation economic effects will wipe out roughly 15% the world GDP (based on China’s experience and effects on world tourism) a time when every developed country and their citizens are deeply debt.
The companies that are effected by Corvid isolation have debts and no revenue. Airline companies are laying off 50% of their staff. Tourism companies are closing.
The economic impact of Corvid isolation is until the developed world is vaccinated. Say 1 Ā½ years?
International air traffic has almost stopped ā¦ Hotels are closing. Movie theatres are all closed. All sporting events, all concerts, and so on.
Opel, Ford anf VW closed factories today in Germany.
Every major city, in the world, is now in virus isolation shutdown mode.
https://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-51914110
This is not an economic downturn.
This is a paradigm change.
Boeing cannot sell planes to bankrupt airline companies that have thousands of unused planes.
Tourists do not want to travel and cannot travel until there is a vaccine. International air travel is over until there is a vaccine.
There is no alternative to extreme isolation until there is a vaccine.
This is not the reduction of growth. This is the instant and long-term destruction of demand.
It is a frickin disaster.
Hard to see how it ends, but I am hoping a successful drug that helps most people with the most severe symptoms, in other words those about to die, will have a decent chance of turning it around quickly. The longer it drags on, the worse off we all will be.
This could literally be the worst economic disaster in the history of the world…another great depression.
I have no idea what the chances of that are, but it is for sure nothing like this has ever happened before.
I’m guessing there is some great NATURAL source that nobody is eating but everybody should.
So Gin and Tonic all round?
As a precautionary tactic of course.
Sure this might be aside track a red herring but the suggested precaution is mighty palatable to many..
Willis’s numbers from the cruise ship were quite interesting,we do seem to be panicking in a manner contrary to what the number seem to tell us.
However being hardwired for flight or fight a much publicized pandemic is hard to rationally respond to.
The Therapeutic Index of Plaquenil is fairly high (that’s a good measure of safety). Serious short term adverse effects are very uncommon (the chief concern of long term retinal toxicity is also fairly uncommon…and can be monitored for early detection)…so, I would not hesitate taking up to 300mg daily for Coronavirus prophylaxis (200mg daily should be effective from what I’ve read so far).
China and the UK are now hoarding these agents (chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine). I don’t know of any US domestic production capabilities…so the supply in the US may be limited, though it is a very commonly used drug.
It wouldn’t hurt to ask your physician to consider putting you on these agents if you begin having suspicious symptoms…and even just for prevention if your doctor is willing. This is not medical advice. I’m only suggesting advice and action you might ask for from your physician.
It seems very safe, especially compared to some of the other candidate drugs they are looking at.
Please note the contraindications and potential drug interactions:
https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Chloroquine-Phosphate-chloroquine-phosphate-3418
The side effects look lovely. I’ll pass.
It is actually a quite safe drug. I’ve taken it for longish periods (months) several times back when it was the anti malarial drug of choice. No side effects whatsoever.
Mefloquine is a lot worse, I personally don’t react to it, but I’ve known people go more or less psychotic from using it.
Some people took interferon and ribavirin with few side effects.
Others killed themselves.
It was so common that suicidal ideation was listed as a side effect, and everyone who got it was counselled prior to being given the stuff and quizzed regularly about thoughts of self harm.
Other got hemolytic anemia, and all sorts of other things.
Destroyed thyroid gland, diabetes,” too many to name, many quite severe and many people simply had to stop taking it. Most had to stop working for the full 24 or 48 weeks.
But hey some had nothing much happen.
I am not suggesting chloroquine has anything like that safety profile, just that you cannot call it safe and free of side affects simply because you did not have any.
recent one that young UK lass who threw herself out of a small plane in sth america
had been acting weird but no one twigged it ws the antimalarial meds
That, most probably, was the naughty one – Lariam.
A guy I knew took that, and had a fortnight [I think, this was about 1999] off work.
I have taken chloroquine perhaps a dozen times, and – for me – there has been no obvious side-effect.
YMMV.
Auto
Thanks for the link, but…
“Bradycardia, cardiac arrhythmias, cardiac disease, coronary artery disease, females, heart failure, hypertension, hypocalcemia, hypokalemia, hypomagnesemia, long QT syndrome, malnutrition, myocardial infarction, QT prolongation, thyroid disease
Use chloroquine with caution in patients with cardiac disease or other conditions…”
…being female is now a condition?
It is passed into breast milk and may be a mutagen and have teratogenic effects. It is also a possible carcinogen.
At first I thought it was a typo, but your explanation makes sense, thanks.
You trimmed part of the text. Let’s see it all, please.
the text I trimmed is from the post that I was responding to. The complete text is there: https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Chloroquine-Phosphate-chloroquine-phosphate-3418
These findings re zinc video are very interesting. In the 90’s I published 2 papers in Veterinary Immunology and Free Radical Research (Elsevier) data showing that even slight stress basically dropped serum zinc values ~100 percent over 2-3 days in sheep. Im surmising that in older people zinc levels need to be boosted. The chloroquine + Zinc story makes sense for treatment I am surmising of course as our research was with sheep but these recent publications seem to support the findings.
Dropped levels 100%?
100% means all of their zinc went away.
I am pretty sure anything which is a necessary nutrient will cause rapid if not instant death if 100% of it was eliminated.
Zinc is essential in over 300 enzymes and over 1000 transcription factors.
It is the second most abundant trace metal in the body after iron.
It is required in every enzyme class.
I think the actual number is not 100%
What were the symptoms of 100% Zn depletion? Asking for a friend.
So not even a pandemic can get the medical community and regulators to look at the research on vitamin supplements. That’s a shame that historians can write about later.
This is not new and has been known for over a decade.
https://aac.asm.org/content/53/8/3416
That quinine is effective against certain types of coronavirus may have been known for a decade. Whether it is effective against COVID-19 in particular would not have been.
“In conclusion, we demonstrate here that chloroquine shows strong in vitro and in vivo antiviral activities against HCoV-OC43. Moreover, treatment with daily doses of chloroquine has a long-lasting protective effect against lethal coronavirus OC43 infection in newborn mice.”
“ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
This work is part of the activities of the Euro-Asian SARS-DTV Network (SP22-CT-2004-511064) supported by the European Commission specific research and technological development program āIntegrating and Strengthening the European Research Area.ā This work was supported by a postdoctoral fellowship of the Fonds voor Wetenschappelijk Onderzoek (FWO)-Vlaanderen to Piet Maes.”
Hi C-no-evil: – Correct, not a new discovery. See this from 2005: “Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread”; free full text is on-line & it’s a relatively easy for non-technical readers to understand.
I see commentators expounding with “… but says who – need data …” & others crediting zinc, “… gotta be with zinc ….” Maybe older published research for this will be of interest to WUWT readers who are just hearing of this drug for coronaviruses.
I could not figure out if Zn and Quinine from tonic water work together to help cells through osmosis increase their Zn levels. Anyone able to provide answers on this topic? If yes, that would be great. I always take Zn supplements about 100% of recommended amount to keep levels from being too low in my body. I take more when sick.
Medcram update #35
Yes I watched that, but could not conclude whether taking small quinine doses via tonic watch provided the right form of quinine to make a difference.
The end of the video shows alternatives with the same biological explanation. Did you stop watching?
“The end of the video shows alternatives with the same biological explanation. Did you stop watching?”
I may have skimmed and thought I got what I needed from it. Thank you I will watch to the end and see if it answers questions about “forms if Quinine.”
There was also a researcher on the Laura Ingraham show on Fox News last night, who mentioned a study where 30 Covid-19 patients treated with chloroquine tested negative after a week, while 30 others given a placebo showed little improvement. Trouble is, Laura Ingraham liked to hear herself talk too much, and didn’t give the researcher enough time to explain the results of his study. I’m not sure whether the study presented by the researcher on Laura Ingraham’s show matches one of the three studies presented in the article above.
If chloroquine has been around for 75 years, and is safe for use against malaria, the FDA should strongly encourage immediate tests of chloroquine on hundreds of other patients known to be suffering from the Covid-19 virus, particularly those with severe cases in areas with high concentrations of infected people (the Seattle area and southeastern New York state). For those elderly Covid-19 patients on ventilators in hospitals, what do they have to lose from taking chloroquine?
If chloroquine can be shown to save some patients’ lives, and result in rapid cures of other patients, there should be a concerted effort to mass-produce chloroquine by any companies that know how to manufacture it as fast as possible and make it readily available to anyone tested positive for Covid-19.
We have all heard these horror stories of exponential growth in cases of Covid-19, of WHO declaring it a “pandemic”, of millions of Europeans holed up in their houses afraid to go out due to this dread disease, the stock market losing 30% in three weeks, “experts” telling us there won’t be a vaccine for 18 months, but Covid-19 has not yet killed 100 people out of 327 million Americans.
If a drug that has been around for 75 years and is safe for curing malaria can be shown to cure Covid-19 and save lives, it could be a serious game-changer, reducing the massive fear and letting people get on with their lives–if they get Covid-19, they get a prescription for chloroquine and get over it!
Immediate test my butt. If they have data that says it may help, start using it and let your clinical experience do the talking.
Once again, Government getting in the way of the solution.
There’s nothing like human guinea pigs. Boy is history replete with examples where that didn’t go so well.
icisil isnāt history full of successes too? Wasnāt the cure for an ulcer done by a guy who figured out how to give himself an ulcer then treat it with antibiotics?
Ulcer treatment was settled science beforehand š
In this case it has been tried on “human guinea pigs” for 75 years and is known to be very safe.
For malaria, not for respiratory diseases.
If it’s safe, it’s safe. Period.
The question is does it cure.
See my previous comment about this anti-malarial being hemolytic. I can’t see how that and respiratory diseases go together well.
It sounds like used as directed, for most people most of the time it is safe-ish.
But it is also fatal when overdosed.
How safe is safe?
Put it on the top shelf, if the therapeutic dose is 500mg.
Twice that amount is fatal for a child:
“Professionals FDA PIChloroquine
Print Share
Chloroquine
Generic Name: Chloroquine phosphate
Dosage Form: tablet
Medically reviewed by Drugs.com. Last updated on Oct 1, 2018.
OverviewSide EffectsDosageProfessionalInteractionsMore
On this page
Description
Clinical Pharmacology
Indications and Usage
Contraindications
Warnings
Precautions
Adverse Reactions/Side Effects
Overdosage
Dosage and Administration
How Supplied/Storage and Handling
References
Chloroquine Description
Chloroquine phosphate tablets, Chloroquine phosphate, USP, is a 4-aminoquinoline compound for oral administration. It is a white, odorless, bitter tasting, crystalline substance, freely soluble inwater.
Chloroquine phosphate tablets are an antimalarial and amebicidal drug.
Chemically, it is 7-chloro-4-[[4-(diethylamino)-1-methylbutyl]amino]quinoline phosphate (1:2) andhas the following structural formula:
C18H26ClN3.2H3PO4 Molecular Weight: 515.87
Each tablet contains 500 mg of Chloroquine phosphate USP, equivalent to 300 mg Chloroquine base.
Inactive Ingredients: colloidal silicon dioxide, dibasic calcium phosphate, hydroxypropylmethylcellulose, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose, polyethylene glycol, polysorbate80, pregelatinized starch, sodium starch glycolate and titanium dioxide.
Chloroquine – Clinical Pharmacology
Chloroquine is rapidly and almost completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, and only a small proportion of the administered dose is found in the stools. Approximately 55% of the drug inthe plasma is bound to nondiffusible plasma constituents. Excretion of Chloroquine is quite slow,but is increased by acidification of the urine. Chloroquine is deposited in the tissues in considerable amounts. In animals, from 200 to 700 times the plasma concentration may be found in the liver,spleen, kidney, and lung; leukocytes also concentrate the drug. The brain and spinal cord, in contrast, contain only 10 to 30 times the amount present in plasma.
Chloroquine undergoes appreciable degradation in the body. The main metabolite is desethylChloroquine, which accounts for one fourth of the total material appearing in the urine;bisdesethylChloroquine, a carboxylic acid derivative, and other metabolic products as yet uncharacterized are found in small amounts. Slightly more than half of the urinary drug products can be accounted for as unchanged Chloroquine.
Microbiology
Mechanism of Action: Chloroquine, a 4-aminoquinoline, is an anti-protozoal agent. The precise mechanism by which Chloroquine exhibits activity is not known. Chloroquine, may exert its effect against Plasmodium species by concentrating in the acid vesicles of the parasite and by inhibiting polymerization of heme. It can also inhibit certain enzymes by its interaction with DNA.
Activity in Vitro and in Clinical Infections: Chloroquine is active against the erythrocytic forms of susceptible strains of Plasmodium falciparum, Plasmodium malariae, Plasmodium ovale, and Plasmodium vivax. Chloroquine is not active against the gametocytes and the exoerythrocytic forms including the hypnozoite stage (P. vivax and P. ovale) of the Plasmodium parasites.
In vitro studies with Chloroquine demonstrated that it is active against the trophozoites of Entamoeba histolytica.
Drug Resistance: Resistance of Plasmodium parasites to Chloroquine is widespread (see INDICATIONS AND USAGE, Limitations of Use in Malaria and WARNINGS).
Plasmodium parasites exhibiting reduced susceptibility to hydroxyChloroquine also show reduced susceptibility to Chloroquine.
Patients in whom Chloroquine or hydroxyChloroquine have failed to prevent or cure clinical malaria or parasitemia, or patients who acquired malaria in a geographic area where Chloroquine resistance is known to occur should be treated with another form of antimalarial therapy (see WARNINGS and INDICATIONS AND USAGE, Limitations of Use).
Indications and Usage for Chloroquine
Chloroquine phosphate tablets are indicated for the:
Treatment of uncomplicated malaria due to susceptible strains of P. falciparum, P.malariae, P. ovale, and P.vivax.
Prophylaxis of malaria in geographic areas where resistance to Chloroquine is not present.
Treatment of extraintestinal amebiasis.
Chloroquine phosphate tablets do not prevent relapses in patients with vivax or ovale malaria because it is not effective against exoerythrocytic forms of the parasites.
Limitations of Use in Malaria:
Do not use Chloroquine phosphate tablets for the treatment of complicated malaria (high-grade parasitemia and/or complications e.g., cerebral malaria or acute renal failure).
Do not use Chloroquine phosphate tablets for malaria prophylaxis in areas where Chloroquine resistance occurs, Resistance to Chloroquine phosphate tablets is widespread in P. falciparum, and is reported in P.vivax (see WARNINGS).
Concomitant therapy with an 8-aminoquinoline drug is necessary for treatment of the hypnozoite liver stage forms of P.vivax and P.ovale (see DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION).
Contraindications
Use of Chloroquine phosphate tablets for indications other than acute malaria is contraindicated in the presence of retinal or visual field changes of any etiology.
Use of Chloroquine phosphate tablets is contraindicated in patients with known hypersensitivity to 4-aminoquinoline compounds.
Warnings
Chloroquine-Resistant Malaria
Chloroquine phosphate tablets are not effective against Chloroquine-or hydroxyChloroquine-resistant strains of Plasmodium species (see CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY, Microbiology). Chloroquine resistance is widespread in P. falciparum and is reported in P. vivax. Before using Chloroquine for prophylaxis, it should be ascertained whether Chloroquine is appropriate for use in the region to be visited by the traveler. Information regarding the geographic areas where resistance to Chloroquine occurs, is available at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (www.cdc.gov\malaria).
Patients infected with a resistant strain of plasmodia as shown by the fact that normally adequate doses have failed to prevent or cure clinical malaria or parasitemia should be treated with another form of antimalarial therapy.
Treatment of Exo-Erythocytic Forms of Malaria
Chloroquine does not treat the hypnozoite liver stage forms of Plasmodium and will therefore not prevent relapses of malaria due to P. vivax or P. ovale. Additional treatment with an anti-malarial agent active against these forms, such as an 8-aminoquinoline, is required for the treatment of infections with P. vivax and P. ovale.
Cardiac Effects
Cases of cardiomyopathy resulting in cardiac failure, in some cases with fatal outcome, have been reported in patients treated during long term therapy at high doses with Chloroquine (see ADVERSE REACTIONS and OVERDOSAGE). Monitor for signs and symptoms of cardiomyopathy and discontinue Chloroquine if cardiomyopathy develops. Chronic toxicity should be considered when conduction disorders (bundle branch block / atrio-ventricular heart block) are diagnosed. If cardiotoxicity is suspected, prompt discontinuation of Chloroquine may prevent life-threatening complications. QT interval prolongation, torsades de pointes, and ventricular arrhythmias have been reported. The risk is greater if Chloroquine is administered at high doses. Fatal cases have been reported. Chloroquine should be used with caution in patients with cardiac disease, a history of ventricular arrhythmias, uncorrected hypokalemia and/or hypomagnesemia, or bradycardia (<50 bpm), and during concomitant administration with QT interval prolonging agents due to potential for QT interval prolongation (see WARNINGS, PRECAUTIONS, Drug Interactions, ADVERSE REACTIONS and OVERDOSAGE)
Hypoglycemia
Chloroquine has been shown to cause severe hypoglycemia including loss of consciousness that could be life-threatening in patients treated with or without antidiabetic medications (see PRECAUTIONS, Drug Interactions). Patients treated with Chloroquine phosphate tablets should be warned about the risk of hypoglycemia and the associated clinical signs and symptoms. Patients presenting with clinical symptoms suggestive of hypoglycemia during treatment with Chloroquine should have their blood glucose level checked and treatment reviewed as necessary.
Retinopathy1
Irreversible retinal damage has been observed in some patients who had received Chloroquine. Significant risk factors for retinal damage include daily doses of Chloroquine phosphate greater than 2.3 mg/kg of actual body weight, durations of use greater than five years, subnormal glomerular filtration, use of some concomitant drug products such as tamoxifen citrate (see PRECAUTIONS), and concurrent macular disease.
A baseline ophthalmological examination should be performed within the first year of starting Chloroquine phosphate tablets. The baseline exam should include: best corrected distance visual acuity (BCVA), an automated threshold visual field (VF) of the central 10 degrees (with retesting if an abnormality is noted), and spectral domain optical coherence tomography (SD-OCT).
For individuals with significant risk factors (daily dose of Chloroquine phosphate greater than 2.3 mg/kg of actual body weight, subnormal glomerular filtration, use of tamoxifen citrate or concurrent macular disease) monitoring should include annual examinations which include BCVA, VF and SDOCT.
For individuals without significant risk factors, annual exams (including BCVA, VF and SD-OCT) can usually be deferred until five years of treatment.
In individuals of Asian descent, retinal toxicity may first be noticed outside the macula. In patients of Asian descent, it is recommended that visual field testing be performed in the central 24 degrees instead of the central 10 degrees.
It is recommended that Chloroquine be discontinued if ocular toxicity is suspected and the patient should be closely observed given that retinal changes (and visual disturbances) may progress even after cessation of therapy.
Central Nervous System Effects
Acute extrapyramidal disorders may occur with Chloroquine (see PRECAUTIONS, ADVERSE REACTIONS and OVERDOSAGE). These adverse reactions usually resolve after treatment discontinuation and/or symptomatic treatment.
Muscular Weakness
All patients on long-term therapy with Chloroquine should be questioned and examined periodically, including testing knee and ankle reflexes, to detect any evidence of muscular weakness. If weakness occurs, discontinue the drug.
Pediatric Accidental Ingestion
A number of fatalities have been reported following the accidental ingestion of Chloroquine, sometimes in relatively small doses (0.75 g or 1 g Chloroquine phosphate in one 3-year-old child). Patients should be strongly warned to keep Chloroquine phosphate tablets out of the reach of children because they are especially sensitive to the 4-aminoquinoline compounds (see OVERDOSAGE and ADVERSE REACTIONS).
Worsening of Psoriasis and Porphyria
Use of Chloroquine phosphate tablets in patients with psoriasis may precipitate a severe attack of psoriasis. When used in patients with porphyria the condition may be exacerbated. Chloroquine phosphate tablets should not be used in these conditions unless the benefit to the patient outweighs the potential risks.
Usage in Pregnancy
Usage of Chloroquine during pregnancy should be avoided except in the prophylaxis or treatment of malaria when the benefit outweighs the potential risk to the fetus. Radioactively tagged Chloroquine administered intravenously to pregnant pigmented CBA mice passed rapidly across the placenta and accumulated selectively in the melanin structures of the fetal eyes. It was retained in the ocular tissues for five months after the drug had been eliminated from the rest of the body2. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies evaluating the safety and efficacy of Chloroquine in pregnant women.
Precautions
Hematological Effects/Laboratory Tests
Complete blood cell counts should be checked periodically if patients are given prolonged therapy (see ADVERSE REACTIONS).
Chloroquine may cause hemolysis in glucose-6 phosphate dehydrogenase (G-6-PD) deficiency. Blood monitoring may be needed as hemolytic anemia may occur, in particular in association with other drugs that cause hemolysis (see ADVERSE REACTIONS).
Auditory Effects
In patients with preexisting auditory damage, Chloroquine should be administered with caution. In case of any defects in hearing, Chloroquine should be immediately discontinued, and the patient closely observed (see ADVERSE REACTIONS).
Use in Patients with Hepatic Impairment
Since Chloroquine phosphate tablets are known to concentrate in the liver, it should be used with caution in patients with hepatic disease or alcoholism or in conjunction with known hepatotoxic drugs.
Central Nervous System Effects
Chloroquine may increase the risk of convulsions in patients with a history of epilepsy.
Drug Interactions
Antacids and kaolin: Antacids and kaolin can reduce absorption of Chloroquine; an interval of at least4 hours between intake of these agents and Chloroquine should be observed.
Cimetidine: Cimetidine can inhibit the metabolism of Chloroquine, increasing its plasma level. Concomitant use of cimetidine should be avoided.
Insulin and other antidiabetic drugs: As Chloroquine may enhance the effects of a hypoglycemic treatment, a decrease in doses of insulin or other antidiabetic drugs may be required.
Arrhythmogenic drugs: There may be an increased risk of inducing ventricular arrhythmias if Chloroquine is used concomitantly with other arrhythmogenic drugs, such as amiodarone or moxifloxacin.
Ampicillin: In a study of healthy volunteers, Chloroquine significantly reduced the bioavailability of ampicillin. An interval of at least two hours between intake of ampicillin and Chloroquine should be observed.
Cyclosporine: After introduction of Chloroquine (oral form), a sudden increase in serum cyclosporine level has been reported. Therefore, close monitoring of serum cyclosporine level is recommended and, if necessary, Chloroquine should be discontinued.
Mefloquine: Co-administration of Chloroquine and mefloquine may increase the risk of convulsions.
The blood concentrations of Chloroquine and desethylChloroquine (the major metabolite of Chloroquine, which also has antimalarial properties) were negatively associated with log antibody titers. Chloroquine taken in the dose recommended for malaria prophylaxis can reduce the antibody response to primary immunization with intradermal human diploid-cell rabies vaccine.
Praziquantel: In a single-dose interaction study, Chloroquine has been reported to reduce the bioavailability of praziquantel.
Tamoxifen: Concomitant use of Chloroquine with drugs known to induce retinal toxicity such as tamoxifen is not recommended (see WARNINGS).
Pregnancy
See WARNINGS, Usage in Pregnancy.
Nursing Mothers
Because of the potential for serious adverse reactions in nursing infants from Chloroquine, a decision should be made whether to discontinue nursing or to discontinue the drug, taking into account the potential clinical benefit of the drug to the mother.
The excretion of Chloroquine and the major metabolite, desethylChloroquine, in breast milk wasinvestigated in eleven lactating mothers following a single oral dose of Chloroquine (600 mg base). The maximum daily dose of the drug that the infant can receive from breastfeeding was about 0.7% of the maternal start dose of the drug in malaria chemotherapy. Separate chemoprophylaxis for the infant is required (see DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION).
Pediatric Use
See WARNINGS and DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION.
Geriatric Use
Clinical studies of Chloroquine phosphate tablets did not include sufficient numbers of subjects aged 65and over to determine whether they respond differently from younger subjects. However, this drugis known to be substantially excreted by the kidney, and the risk of toxic reactions to this drug maybe greater in patients with impaired renal function. Because elderly patients are more likely to havedecreased renal function, care should be taken in dose selection and it may be useful to monitorrenal function.
Adverse Reactions
The following adverse reactions have been identified during post-approval use of Chloroquine or other 4-aminoqunoline compounds. Because these reactions are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to drug exposure.
Ocular disorders: Maculopathy and macular degeneration have been reported and may be irreversible. Irreversible retinopathy with retinal pigmentation changes (bullās eye appearance) and visual field defects (paracentral scotomas) in patients receiving long-term or high-dosage 4-aminoquinoline therapy have been reported (see WARNINGS). Visual disturbances (blurring of vision and difficulty of focusing or accommodation); nyctalopia; scotomatous vision with field defects of paracentral, pericentral ring types, and typically temporal scotomas (e.g., difficulty in reading with words tending to disappear, seeing half an object, misty vision, and fog before the eyes) have been reported. Reversible corneal opacities have also been reported.
Immune system disorders: Urticaria, anaphylactic reaction including angioedema.
Ear and labyrinth disorders: Nerve type deafness; tinnitus, reduced hearing in patients with preexisting auditory damage.
Musculoskeletal and connective tissue-disorders: Sensorimotor disorders, skeletal muscle myopathy or neuromyopathy leading to progressive weakness and atrophy of proximal muscle groups, depression of tendon reflexes and abnormal nerve conduction.
Gastrointestinal disorders: Hepatitis, increased liver enzymes, anorexia, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps.
Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders: Erythema multiforme, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis, exfoliative dermatitis. Pleomorphic skin eruptions, skin and mucosal pigmentary changes; lichen planus-like eruptions, pruritus,; drug rash with eosinophilia and systemic symptoms (DRESS syndrome); photosensitivity and hair loss and bleaching of hair pigment.
Blood and lymphatic system disorders: Pancytopenia, aplastic anemia, reversible agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia and neutropenia. Hemolytic anemia in G6PD deficient patients (see PRECAUTIONS).
Nervous system disorders: Convulsions, mild and transient headache, polyneuropathy, acute extrapyramidal disorders (such as dystonia, dyskinesia, tongue protrusion, torticollis) (see WARNINGS and OVERDOSAGE).
Neuropsychiatric disorders: Neuropsychiatric changes including psychosis, delirium, anxiety, agitation, insomnia, confusion, hallucinations, personality changes, depression, and suicidal behavior.
Cardiac disorders: Hypotension, electrocardiographic changes (particularly, inversion or depression of the T-wave with widening of the QRS complex), and cardiomyopathy (which may result in cardiac
failure and in some cases a fatal outcome).
Cardiac arrhythmias, conduction disorders such as bundle branch block / atrio-ventricular block, QT interval prolongation, torsade de pointes, ventricular tachycardia and ventricular fibrillation have been reported with therapeutic doses of Chloroquine as well as with overdose. The risk is greater if Chloroquine is administered at high doses. Fatal cases have been reported (see WARNINGS, Cardiac Effects and OVERDOSAGE).
Metabolic and Nutritional disorders: Hypoglycemia (see WARNINGS).
Overdosage
Signs and Symptoms: Chloroquine is very rapidly and completely absorbed after ingestion. Toxic doses of Chloroquine can be fatal. As little as 1 g may be fatal in children. Toxic symptoms can occur within minutes."
"Pediatric Accidental Ingestion
A number of fatalities have been reported following the accidental ingestion of Chloroquine, sometimes in relatively small doses (0.75 g or 1 g Chloroquine phosphate in one 3-year-old child). Patients should be strongly warned to keep Chloroquine phosphate tablets out of the reach of children because they are especially sensitive to the 4-aminoquinoline compounds (see OVERDOSAGE and ADVERSE REACTIONS).
Worsening of Psoriasis and Porphyria
Use of Chloroquine phosphate tablets in patients with psoriasis may precipitate a severe attack of psoriasis. When used in patients with porphyria the condition may be exacerbated. Chloroquine phosphate tablets should not be used in these conditions unless the benefit to the patient outweighs the potential risks."
Here is the link for that info:
https://www.drugs.com/pro/chloroquine.html#s-34088-5
Oops!
I only copied and pasted a small part of that page, but it posted the entire thing.
Sorry.
Makes it impossible to quickly spot the part I was pointing out.
Mods, if you want, please snip all but the past part of that really long label data.
I only meant to post the last two paragraphs starting with “Overdosage”.
I am sorry for not checking….do not know how that happened.
Here is the part I wanted to point out:
Overdosage
Signs and Symptoms: Chloroquine is very rapidly and completely absorbed after ingestion. Toxic doses of Chloroquine can be fatal. As little as 1 g may be fatal in children. Toxic symptoms can occur within minutes.”
“Pediatric Accidental Ingestion
A number of fatalities have been reported following the accidental ingestion of Chloroquine, sometimes in relatively small doses (0.75 g or 1 g Chloroquine phosphate in one 3-year-old child). Patients should be strongly warned to keep Chloroquine phosphate tablets out of the reach of children because they are especially sensitive to the 4-aminoquinoline compounds (see OVERDOSAGE and ADVERSE REACTIONS).
Worsening of Psoriasis and Porphyria
Use of Chloroquine phosphate tablets in patients with psoriasis may precipitate a severe attack of psoriasis. When used in patients with porphyria the condition may be exacerbated. Chloroquine phosphate tablets should not be used in these conditions unless the benefit to the patient outweighs the potential risks.”
The FDA doesnāt like it because it doesnāt put money in pockets of lobbyists.
It really is sad how paranoid so many people have gotten.
There isn’t a shred of evidence that the FDA, or anyone else, is dragging their feet on this issue.
“Trouble is, Laura Ingraham liked to hear herself talk too much, and didnāt give the researcher enough time to explain the results of his study.”
That is a problem for several hosts on Fox. About the time the guest gets to the good stuff, the host jumps in and starts talking over them. It’s extremely irritating and rude on the part of the host. If you are going to a hard break, that’s different, interupt them, but usually that is not the case.
Shut up, Sean! Shut up, Laura! I find myself saying that a lot when listening to their shows.
Steve
“Safe” is a relative term. Almost anything is better than malaria. However, in that context, it does not mean that chloroquine is without side-effects for all users.
The word is preventive.
There is also Quinine Sulfate, often used to relieve leg cramp. It has some mild-ish side effects, possibly worth considering by senior citizens with a bad case of infection with Covid-19, since apparently there is no other effective medication.
More here: https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-869/quinine-oral/details
āWhat Conditions does Quinine Sulfate Treat?
– malaria caused by the protozoa Plasmodium falciparum
– falciparum malaria resistant to the drug chloroquineā
I take quinine sulphate tablets to prevent night time cramp in the footss
More published reviewed proof Hydroxychloroquine as a treatment of COVID-19: results of an open-label non-randomized clinical
trial
(1) Yao X, Ye F, Zhang M, Cui C, Huang B, Niu P, et al. In Vitro Antiviral Activity and
Projection of Optimized Dosing Design of Hydroxychloroquine for the Treatment of Severe
Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Clin Infect Dis. 2020 Mar 9. pii:
ciaa237. doi: 10.1093/cid/ciaa237. [Epub ahead of print]
(2) Colson P, Rolain JM, Raoult D. Chloroquine for the 2019 novel coronavirus SARS-CoV2. Int J Antimicrob Agents. 2020 Feb 15:105923. doi: 10.1016/j.ijantimicag.2020.105923.
[Epub ahead of print]
(3) Wang M, Cao R, Zhang L, Yang X, Liu J, Xu M, et al. Remdesivir and chloroquine effectively inhibit the
recently emerged novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in vitro. Cell Res 2020;10-0282.
(4) Colson P, Rolain JM, Lagier JC, Brouqui P, Raoult D. Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine as available
weapons to fight COVID-19. Int J Antimicrob Agents. 2020 [Epub ahead of print]
(5) Gao J, Tian Z, Yang X. Breakthrough: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treatment of
COVID-19 associated pneumonia in clinical studies. Biosci Trends 2020 Feb 19. doi:
10.5582/bst.2020.01047. [Epub ahead of print]
(6) Armstrong N, Richez M, Raoult D, Chabriere E. Simultaneous UHPLC-UV analysis of
hydroxychloroquine, minocycline and doxycycline from serum samples for the therapeutic drug monitoring
of Q fever and Whipple’s disease. J. Chromatogr. B Analyt. Technol. Biomed. Life Sci. 2017: 1060, 166-172.
Because intracytoplasmatic zinc inhibits coronavirus coding of cytoplasmic RNA polymerase, one would think that In older patients, Zinc should be supplemented with the chloroquine which allows zinc to enter the cytoplasm. My two cents worth. Perhaps this treatment should be implemented on older patients with the virus to prevent any further deaths. This is my personal view and I take no responsibility for it so I leave this to the medical professional experts to avoid getting into trouble cheers. In any case in my view the incidence and prevalence of this virus is extremely low compared to any other diseases, viruses such as influenza or normal death rates in older gents and has been completely overblown. The main viral culprit here is social media and politicians which will cost billions and misery worlwide for a nothing burger virus which will in any case stimulate worldwide immunity such as sars ect. Again my personal 2 cents view. We shall see in 2 weeks time LOL.
The UK’s chief scientific adviser said
āIf we can get this down to 20,000 and below, that is a good outcome in terms of where we would hope to get to with this outbreak. It is still horrible, it is still an enormous number of deaths and it is an enormous pressure on the health service.ā
The average annual flu deaths are about 6-8,000
It is not known if immunity would automatically follow the infection.
Of course it would. That is how viral infections resolve. If antibodies do not develop, the infection becomes overwhelming and the subject dies. The question is whether the immunity is long lasting, and whether viral mutation creates a strain which is not destroyed by the antibodies which exist (see seasonal influenza).
The problem with chloroquine is dose related retinal toxicity. This is highly unlikely in the doses used for malarial prophylaxis, but arises where used in therapeutic doses for rheumatic diseases. Doses below 4 mg per Kg per day are fairly safe. Hydroxychloroquine is safer.
It seem like the Chinese and Koreans are successfully using intravenous Vitamin C which is well known for improving our immune system – maybe we should all increase its use as a preventative. https://truth11.com/2020/03/11/vitamin-c-to-treat-covid-19-coronavirus/
A 50c tablet once a day of Chloroquine or similar is a lot easier is proven effective and gives less profit to big pharma than intravenous vitamin injections, which is probably why they are trying to obfuscate its use against COVID-19.
Do you have any actual evidence that drug companies are trying to discourage anyone from using this treatment?
Coronavirus: itās time to debunk claims that vitamin C could cure it
http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-its-time-to-debunk-claims-that-vitamin-c-could-cure-it-132803
Didn’t sound like the author debunked anything to me. Vitamin C, among other important functions, helps reduce oxidized glutathione back to it’s active state. Glutathione is the primary anti-oxidant in the lungs, not to mention the entire body, and is up to 1000 times more abundant in the lungs than other parts of the body. Which makes sense because it is the most vulnerable part of the body exposed to oxidizing agents. The body is nothing more than a complex of biochemical reactions, so it just makes basic good sense that it can’t function correctly without requisite nutrients. Enough vitamin C may be obtained from the diet for normal functions, but oxidative stress quickly depletes it. If it’s not replaced in a timely manner, problems will develop.
The author sounds like a shill for big pharma. People who write like that are clueless how they contradict themselves, in this case almost in the same paragraph. The worst harm of vitamin C IVs he can come up with in one paragraph can also occur with what he promotes in the next paragraph.
Maybe he is, and his link to “wellness influencers” doesn’t even concern vitamin C, it concerns vitamin D.
If he had some problem with a study, he should have said what the problem is. It’s somewhat disappointing that much of modern medicine is anecdotal, just like his piece.
Once again, you see what your biases require you to see.
There is nothing contradictory in those two statements. Both statements also happen to be 100% true.
SNIP . Alan, you’re new here so I’ll explain. We do not allow personal attacks on other posters or profanity in comments. Stick to refuting the argument with factual without the personal attack or speculative musings on the motives of the person commenting. Yes, we try but sometimes attacks slip through, it is not the policy here. MOD So many trained medical pill pushers give the line ‘expensive pee’. Well many if not most of today’s medicines are derived from plants and are basically vitamins themselves. Some doctors or wannabe docs arrogantly downplay anything natural that can help because that puts them out of a job and also lowers the sales of the drug companies that sponsor the colleges where they were trained. Here’s some documented evidence of the effect of C versus SARS: https://academic.oup.com/jac/article/52/6/1049/731701
https://www.cell.com/trends/immunology/comments/S1471-4906(03)00286-2
and this article: https://healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/seeking-a-covid-19-antidote-the-potential-of-ace2.html
that states: ….whilst other reports indicate that Chinese scientists have seen success in delivering high intravenous doses of Vitamin C to seriously infected patients (The journal Caduceus also reports that large shipments of Vitamin C are now enroute to that country).
SNIP
The company who makes chloroquine:
https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/amp/item/medicijn-uit-zeewolde-nu-onderdeel-van-voorlopig-behandeladvies-coronavirus/?__twitter_impression=true
Popma previously said the drug is quick and relatively inexpensive to make . “I can provide 17 million people with this drug, as well as the rest of Europe,” he said
Over the last month or so, when there is mentioned that China produces the raw ingredients to a large number of medicines used in the USA, also mentioned there is a shortage of one of the medicines but the name of the drug is not mentioned.
I wonder: is that drug in short supply named Chloroquine?
Does anyone know?
RiHoO8
I read a comment on twitter, that pakistan had sent chloroquine to china, in large numbers…
not sure but they also ramped up VitC production as they were using that as well
Id also suspect that the ASF outbreak killing so many pigs has made Heparin supplies harder to come by
its made from pig intestines. in china pretty much sole supplier no matter whos brand names on it.
like many of the overpriced drugs you think are made in usa and are not.
Does anyone know if ARB’s, such as Losatan, are being succesfully used. I would imagine ARB’s would block the entry path.
There is concern that ARBs and Ace inhibitors can make a person MORE susceptible by increasing the cells receptors.Apparently Advil may also do this.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30116-8/fulltext
Meanwhile the CBC keeps the garbage rolling… with Bill McKibben…
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-12-2020-1.5494992/covid-19-pandemic-response-temporarily-combating-co2-emissions-but-systemic-change-needed-experts-urge-1.5495303
Is “icisil” a resurrection of “Nicholas McGinley “?
No
What comment disturbed you, btw?
The French have seen similar results with chloroquine.
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-researcher-in-Marseille-posts-successful-Covid-19-coronavirus-drug-trial-results
The French have found similar results with chloroquine
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-researcher-in-Marseille-posts-successful-Covid-19-coronavirus-drug-trial-results
I’m not sure why everyone is saying garlic is not effective, without pointing to any actual evidence.
How would you interpret this?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4967842/
as positive and worth using, and I do;-)
and yes its being added to caged bird and other stock feeds to lower the abuse of antibiotics in feeds already
Trust your gut feelings. Mine, based around lots of research, are saying:
– Over the next 2 years most of us will be exposed to this infection (the past is a window into the future)
– There will be no preventative vaccine developed within this time frame
– The economic fallout will be much more severe (for society) than the condition
I contacted my bank this morning informing them that they will be first to have a default payment from my accounts. Utilities will be next. Cut off my electricity if you dare
I am self employed. If the building industry contracts I contract. I will feed my family whatever it takes. Leave the cave to find the food. Sorry sisters, you still need us
Governments around the world are trying to slow down the infection rate so that the health sector and financial institutions have more time to cope. Every aid package instigated by our NZ Government requires applications processing. None of the above mentioned institutions have the capacity to handle the surge which is coming
While I am of the high-risk age group I believe that time will show that they would have best let the pandemic run at its own pace while allow society to carry on as normal. Every action has an up and downside. Like war: collateral damage. It is unavoidable
Cheers
M
I tend to agree. I think when they cancelled the NBA over one guy getting it, that started all of this insanity.
But that may be a miscalcuation itself.
This is not just killing one percent of people over 80.
It is giving a lot of young people a very serious case of viral pneumonia, which is very often fatal without modern medical care. So when the beds run out, is when the death rate is spiking.
I saw some very clear graphics on that regarding Italy on CNBC today.
ICU beds run out, more people die.
And lots of young people get it, just not as a proportion of total illnesses. But if the total is 50% of the whole country or world, depending where you live, and it happens very quickly, that is a lot of people with pneumonia in a short time…too short to allow beds to clear.
Our system is not set up to care for hundreds of thousands of people needing around the clock support and care in a hospital.
Thanks for the article.
Garlic extract appears to inhibit Avian infectious bronchitis virus (IBV) in chicken embryos according to the article. That doesn’t mean that it would work for any other virus or if it would work in humans, though humans aren’t susceptible to infection by this IBV.
It might be a good idea to feed your chickens garlic. I suppose you could also eat garlic chicken and it would do no harm.
I am having a fun time reading the old posts here about the virus
and the comments.
Most instructive
It doesn’t really matter since most of us died over 40 years ago when we ran out of oil.
origin of the virus
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
Nice article, dated today and interestingly their global deaths are off, they write with 4,373 deaths, and their footnote is from the 10th so they get a pass. Now, it’s about at 8,000 deaths, (as of this writing 7,933 per John Hopkins… Fantastic website link here with perhaps the best up to date numbers from the world. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
Yummy. “In recent years, a number of new diseases that have caused severe illnesses in people have been traced back to bats. Bats are the suspected source of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) virus, Ebola, Marburg virus, Hendra virus, and most recently Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) virus, to name a few.
In fact, bats are reservoirs for more than 60 viruses that can infect people, according to a 2013 study. The animals host more viruses per species than rodents.”
https://www.livescience.com/44870-bats-viruses-flight.html
And then, I found this: “In the New York Post, Steven Mosher, a regular critic of Chinaās population control measures, has stoked the leakage rumor, using an array of circumstantial clues that Chinese labsā handling of deadly pathogens canāt be trusted.”
Is that you?
Steve Mosher is a Global Treasure, regardless of whether we sometimes disagree. His status has been elevated. Be careful when visiting China you don’t get disappeared. However, Steven Mosher is a different guy: https://www.google.com/search?q=steven+mosher+on+china&sxsrf=ALeKk01MwFrQmkta325j7m-0OP329xNxIQ:1584564872881&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=TSbvAAZKi3cuGM%253A%252Cha_gm8-WbV3G_M%252C%252Fm%252F079d2l&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQybFG2LXqAjfte63X9tQr5Nt3sqw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMh_yS9KToAhU6HjQIHSDbBs8Q_B0wEnoECAkQAw
Different Steven Mosher.
He acts the same way wonder if he has an arts degree as well.
so weird.
a few weeks back when infections in the us were at 68 and deaths were at zero
this dummy with an arts degree knew more than you.
hey, who knew you could get an education from life
Maybe.
The data is encouraging but not conclusive. Both chloroquine and remdesivir real trials are starting.
The epidemiological data is worse, and justifies the Presidentās next 15 day admonitionsāeven tho AW nixed my CtM update request.
Using the WE skewed DP sample, adjusting only the fatality/recovered denominator, the āworst caseā (explained in the nixed update post) CFR is 5.4%, up because of Italy from 5.0 yesterday. Just is.
in case anyone is curious, Hyland’s has a Leg Cramps product sold in most CVS and many super markets, contains Cinchona
Hydrochloroquine has been proven effective against CoV-19 as well as SARS in numerous trials. There is no doubt it works. Side-effects are rare and much less severe than death from viral pneumonia.
It’s a cure. You don’t need a vaccine if you have a cure. Even if many get infected, few will exhibit extreme symptoms, and those who do can be cured.
The panic should be over, finished, done with. This alleged pandemic is not worth rewriting the laws or blowing up the economy. There is a cure. Nobody has to die from this virus.
I know that a certain segment of society loves to panic, either for kicks or for evil control motives. People are prone to panic, especially the modern spoiled leisure-sated liberal sheeple and their lupine masters. Witness the idiotic CAGW panic that has persisted for 20 years.
But the corona virus panic should subside immediately. There is a cure! Get back to work! Put the Congress on permanent recess!
Where did you get this “many studies” nonsense.
From the article, it’s not a cure, it lessens the severity of the symptoms.
The ācureā for this virus, like every other virus, is your own immune response. The tricky part is not dying while your immune response cures you.
So if there is a pill that effectively stops most people from dying, the hysteria really should be over.
Sure, if you have untreated AIDS or you are the bubble boy, this isnāt going to ācureā you. Most people have an intact immune response.
Mike,
The results in humans are suggestive, not definitive, and nothing is proven.
Get real, stop misinforming people, Mike.
You blanket statement of unqualified success is not warranted.
IOW…you just made that up…so stop it!
COVID19 Treatment by HydroChloroquine & azithromycin
An Effective Treatment for Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Presented by: James M. Todaro, MD (Columbia MD, jtodaro2@gmail.com) and Gregory J. Rigano, Esq. (grigano1@jhu.edu)
https://twitter.com/RiganoESQ/status/1239780304082124800
Gautreta et al. (2020) Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVIDā19: results of an openālabel nonārandomized clinical trial. International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents ā In Press 17 March 2020 ā DOI : 10.1016/j.ijantimicag.2020.105949
An Open Data Clinical Trial for COVID-19 Prevention
INTERVIEW – GREGORY RIGANO – co-author on study of Chloroquine, Advisor to the Stanford University School of Medicine
I miss Climate Change.
“Some say the world will end in fire; some say in ice…”
etc, etc.
Herbert
Not to worry! It will come back.
Climate change is so yesterday, we cancelled it due to lack of interest. Now it’s all about the toilet roll š
We did not know we were living in paradise and had the time and money to spend on silly stuff that we called has called green in that time.
This is a paradigm change.
In a time of war there can only be one number one priority and that will be 20% unemployment.
Giving money to people does not bring back their jobs.
Let’s hope the vaccine comes soon. I would like to know more about the vaccine options.
So why no broader statements from “authority” saying that it is all but over. Not even peep from the MSM. Only wash your hands and stay inside.
Because it isn’t. Having a new treatment just means that hopefully, fewer people will die.
I am as hopeful as I could be that this is exactly as some seem to think, and a cheap and tested and easy to get drug will keep people from being infected and keep anyone from dying who does.
But I aint bettin’ the farm on it.
This is how alt medicine journals read, not serious studies from professionals.
They did not give one word about NEWS scores, or any of the language that is used in serious studies.
Here is the kind of language that is typically used:
“Primary Outcome Measures :
Time to Clinical Improvement (TTCI) [Censored at Day 28] [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
TTCI is defined as the time (in days) from initiation of study treatment (active or placebo) until a decline of two categories from status at randomisation on a six-category ordinal scale of clinical status which ranges from 1 (discharged) to 6 (death).
Six-category ordinal scale:
6. Death; 5. ICU, requiring ECMO and/or IMV; 4. ICU/hospitalization, requiring NIV/ HFNC therapy; 3. Hospitalization, requiring supplemental oxygen (but not NIV/ HFNC); 2. Hospitalization, not requiring supplemental oxygen;
1. Hospital discharge or meet discharge criteria (discharge criteria are defined as clinical recovery, i.e. fever, respiratory rate, oxygen saturation return to normal, and cough relief).
Abbreviation: IMV, invasive mechanical ventilation; NIV, non-invasive mechanical ventilation; HFNC, High-flow nasal cannula.”
“Secondary Outcome Measures :
Clinical status [ Time Frame: days 7, 14, 21, and 28 ]
Clinical status, assessed by the ordinal scale at fixed time points (days 7, 14, 21, and 28).
Time to Hospital Discharge OR NEWS2 (National Early Warning Score 2) of ā¤ 2 maintained for 24 hours. [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Time to Hospital Discharge OR NEWS2 (National Early Warning Score 2) of ā¤ 2 maintained for 24 hours.
All cause mortality [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Duration (days) of mechanical ventilation [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Duration (days) of extracorporeal membrane oxygenation [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Duration (days) of supplemental oxygenation [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Length of hospital stay (days) [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Time to 2019-nCoV RT-PCR negativity in upper and lower respiratory tract specimens [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Change (reduction) in 2019-nCoV viral load in upper and lower respiratory tract specimens as assessed by area under viral load curve. [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]
Frequency of serious adverse drug events [ Time Frame: up to 28 days ]”
It does not even sound like they ttried various dosages to see how much or how little was optimum…the first thing one has to do.
Maybe twice as much is better. Maybe half as much is better.
Maybe people getting identical care and placebo also did “better” than people not getting the drug.
There were words that rang bells for me…words like “curative”.
“An effective treatment”…dont listen to the dangerous lying shills of the oligarchy.
You are what you accuse others of being, Loydo.
Why else would these overpaid spruikers be telling such egregious, scripted lies, then a week later appear genuinely concerned? Because of these lies there are still millions who think Covid 19 is fake news, no worse than the flu, many of them will die.
Loydo you are a poor human being. Shame on you.
Loydo has no concept of shame, don’t waste your keystrokes.
Probably just gave him a self-righteous warm-fuzzy.
Loydo.. its a question of changing data. The spike in Italy changed the global view of the virus by showing how a spike would overwhelm health care facilities, and people were triaged to die alone.
It is possible to be wrong, based on weak data and personal values, then change ones mind with more data.
Too bad climate change alarmists can’t do that.
Loydo is a socialist who will do and say anything that she thinks will get her closer to more free stuff.
Whenever someone says something a liberal disagrees with, it instantly becomes a lie, and the person involved becomes part of a huge conspiracy.
They were presenting the data that was known at the time. That’s not lying, even if your bosses are now telling you to say so.
Isn’t it amazing how Loydo has jumped from lying about climate change to lying about the Wuhan Virus. It’s almost as if his pay masters sent out a memo telling him to change topics.
Loydo, can you explain THIS bald faced lie by Mr. Biden?
From The Federalist
Joe Biden Lies About Coronavirus Testing To Make Trump Look Bad
“….At Sunday nightās debate, Democratic presidential contender Joe Biden blatantly lied to the American public about the Trump administrationās handling of coronavirus testing in a pathetic attempt to push the false narrative that a lack of testing has endangered Americans.
āThe World Health Organization offered the testing kits that they had available and to give it to us now,ā Biden proclaimed.ā āWe refused it. We didnāt want to buy them,ā the Democratic front-runner claimed.
Bidenās claim was false on many fronts and had previously been debunked on at least two occasions. First, during a March 7, 2020 press briefing, Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar and Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Commissioner Stephen Hahn made clear that there were no World Health Organization (WHO) ātesting kits.ā
Hahn told reporters: āWeāve seen reports about a WHO test, and that WHO is distributing a diagnostic test to countries. And I want to be really clear about this: Weāve been in constant contact with WHO. The WHO does not have its own test that it is distributing globally. It has only posted on its website protocols from some test developers, including our own CDC.ā
https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/joe-biden-lies-about-coronavirus-testing-to-make-trump-look-bad/
===================
There are plenty more politically motivated lies by democrats to post, but this one is a wide open lie exposure.
Really, your partisanship behavior is making you ignorant and stupid, here is a Forum Thread I started a couple days ago, exposing numerous democrat lies, backed by sourced evidence.
The democrats replies in the thread never responds to the list of ten from the article, they make deflecting replies instead, indicating they have NO counterpoint to offer.
PJ Media
10 Ways the Left Has Politicized the Coronavirus Pandemic
By Matt Margolis March 16, 2020
EXCERPT:
It was disgusting to see the way Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders politicized the coronavirus pandemic during their debate Sunday night. I expected as much, to be honest.
A public health crisis is no time for partisanship. Sadly, for the left, they saw the coronavirus pandemic was just another opportunity for them to take down Trump. From the Russian collusion hoax to the bogus impeachment, theyāve tried relentlessly to find something to not just damage him, but to end his presidency.
The leftās politicization of the coronavirus pandemic has taken many forms, and Iāve compiled the most significant examples below.
10. Wishing infection on Trump supporters
In a now-deleted tweet, liberal activist Susan Daniel declared, āFor the record, if I do get the coronavirus I’m attending every MAGA rally I can.”
As bad as that was, Denver City Councilwoman Candi CdeBaca apparently thought it was appropriate to retweet the disgusting comment on her official Twitter account:
(Snip)
9. Prioritizing political correctness over the public health
Is political correctness in the middle of a pandemic helpful? Itās not. Getting offended by language is a distraction from the real problem, but that hasnāt stopped Democrats from doing just that.
There is no doubt that the coronavirus originated in Wuhan, China. Yet, at some point during the outbreak, the Democrats and the media decided that to refer to the virus as the āWuhan virusā or the āChinese virusā was racist–at least when Republicans said it. Democrats were triggered when congressman Dr. Paul Gosar announced he would self-quarantine and referred to the virus as the āWuhan virus.ā House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy was similarly accused of racism when he referred to it as the āChinese coronavirus,ā prompting Democrats to call for an apology.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/10-ways-the-left-has-politicized-the-coronavirus-pandemic/
===============
You need to drop your partisan behavior, go with the evidence instead.
Sunsetty
China no more asked for this virus than we did. Their people are dyeing just like ours. Why use a name that offends a whole nation at a time when we need to pull together to fight this virus. It has two official names. Corona and Covid-19. My suggestion is that in the interest of us all working together we use only those two names and leave the blame game out of this.
Simon: Most respectfully, We name diseases from where they originated so that we can understand the history and learn from what went wrong. Lyme disease for instance originated from Lyme Connecticut. China literally hid this disease from the world. Tracking how it spread, and where it went is literally as important as dealing with its consequences.
You are making this into a worse issue with a strawman stance. That is, trying to obfuscate where it came from for reasons that are not helpful.
Chinese propaganda is that our military brought it, and China wants us to not associate it with originating there. So let’s stop the Left wing propaganda and move forward with as little ignorance as possible.
Deal?
I would be all for “pulling together” with China except they keep lying, add to that they shipped people FROM Wuhan to Italy and other countries AFTER they knew full well there was a massive problem coming OUT OF WUHAN. Put that all together and I will continue to call it China Virus, government of China don’t like it they can suck my a$$. They knew as far back as November there was a major problem and HID it from the world AND their own people.
‘So letās stop the Left wing propaganda and move forward with as little ignorance as possible.’
Simon doesn’t have that button – he’s pretty much left-wing propaganda all day, every day.
Mario
“Simon: Most respectfully, We name diseases from where they originated so that we can understand the history and learn from what went wrong.”
Really? Where did Spanish flu come from?
If we are going to get in to petty name calling maybe it should be called the Trump virus. He’s done more than anyone to make sure it is spread far and wide across the US by:
ā Delayed testing
ā denying/minimised the dangers
ā cutting funding
ā misinformed/lying to the public
Simon: you lost me at “Trump virus”. I gave you a shot, and you will no longer benefit from my help.
‘If we are going to get in to petty name calling maybe it should be called the Trump virus. ‘
Uh – yeah, that’s where the progressive left STARTED with this – and you turn around and call us petty.
You’re petty and dishonest. What we’ve done – as always – is respond to you pettiness and dishonesty.
Now go monitor your virus alerts – don’t walk in front of a bus while you’re doing it.
And another thing, you friggin’ clone – I love the way you phrase ‘Trump virus’ as if you came up with it on the spot.
That’s called ‘fronting’.
Funny that Loydo has missed the over-paid shills who pretty much have been parroting the same lies – verbatim – for years – oh like CNN, WAPO, NYT, etc.
They opened up their coverage on this virus as a dishonest, opportunistic attack campaign against Trump – the same spin on every news item for three straight years.
‘Scripted’. Wow. Hypocrisy just doesn’t say it.
Loydo – you’re an embarrassment to humanity.
The sheer lying bigoted smarm constantly being shoveled out by you and your personal gods is what fascism is made of.
a few weeks back when USA cases were at 68 folks like me took a ton of abuse for explaining this low number was the effect of doing no testing.
well a couple weeks have gone by
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Say hello to what you see if you test.
in reality you probably have 60000 to 100000 cases in the US
Here’s another hint
Willis did a nice piece on Gompertz ( my favorite for looking at survival of Ice.)
Korea was a nice fit.
was.
outbreaks poppin up !( 2 areas in SK have yet to peak)
lets just say there were 3 more cases within 5 minutes of me this morning– I get text alerts that are tied to my location and the ‘distance’ window I set. make that 4, it just went off again.
Zombie Apocalypse… they’re coming for you Mosh.
https://youtu.be/4V90AmXnguw
@Steve Mosher… me too. Numbers will skyrocket with testing and that makes it hard to know what part is just measurements adding up vs the actual organic growth rate (or leveling or decline) of the cases. I am glad to hear you chime in here. I tried to ask what you thought of the numbers from China. Are their number of cases fairly accurate? If yes, did they really level off with their isolation measures etc?
“I tried to ask what you thought of the numbers from China. Are their number of cases fairly accurate? If yes, did they really level off with their isolation measures etc?”
I think all we can do is judge the numbers by using consistency tests.
there were some early issues with changing diagnostic criteria.
There are also some issues with “missed cases”
Ex Hubei province shows you what you can do with isolation. They flattened the curve enormously.
So, Hubei numbers: under counted cases, over estimated death rate
Ex Hubei: Shows what you can limit this thing to and death rate for a PREPARED
health system.
isolation measures are less severe now. Today Beijing had a record number of cases
11
All IMPORTS
Now ask yourself this. with only a few flights landing at PEK whats the probability
that 11 people will get off the plane with Covid?
rather shocking
Anyway ALL passengers landing in Biejing will do 2 weeks in Quarentine at their own
expense.
Steve Mosher: Thank you. It’s great having one of our own close to the action… like a war time reporter. I had a feeling that the inflated mortality rate was the driver behind this extreme response. Looks like US is coming down to around 1.6%… down from close to 4% a week or two ago. If it settles around 1%, that’s within the relm of Flu mortality rate of 0.1%. My problem is that I do not know how they are both calculated.
In Flu cases, do they “guess” the number of total cases to be about 0.1% of the death toll?
or do they count and use statistical fudging to guess the total Flu cases?
If it comes out that Covid 19 is indeed 10x worse or more than Flu, then perhaps this was all justified. If it’s on par, we should all know that and the world will get back to work.
As long as there are beds in the ICU, the CFR will stay to the low end.
ICU beds run out, CFR goes way up.
I also spoke about the way S. Korea tested.
It was a world of difference.
We have not seen the last chapter of this book, and we may have only seen the Foreword.
I sincerely hope not. It is possible one or more of these treatments will be effective enough to make a difference.
But they are treatments, not vaccines. We will not have a vaccine soon enough, unfortunately.
This malaria drug, if it will really prevent anyone from every getting infected, and if it is really so safe it can just be passed out like bottles of aspirin (which is also very toxic, as is acetaminophen) then it will become a question of “How fast can they make it, and who will get it until there is plenty for everyone, and is that soon enough to matter”.
A lot of ifs and maybes.
This disease does a slow burn under the radar for, it appears, as much as a month or more, and then it starts showing up as patients with pneumonia at the emergency room.
I would not be so sure any country has this licked and that is that.
Two to four doublings make a huge difference and that is the uncertainty that we are dealing with. Here’s good commentary from a professor of medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/
Scissor: This article captures what I have felt for a long time now. It’s a worthy read! People think I am nuts because I typically am skeptical of running with the herd. Thank you!
St. steve complains about things that never happened. Again.
Nobody abused you because you were calling for more testing.
Correct the only thing he got abused for was making stupid statements like Vitamin D was somehow going to improve your chances of survival. Then he started with other stupid statements like his arts degree somehow made him an expert. At the moment he sounds more like an unhinged doomsday prepper than anything else.
“St. steve complains about things that never happened. Again.
Nobody abused you because you were calling for more testing.”
really? and this is just a sample.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/07/coronavirus-israeli-health-ministry-wants-to-add-the-usa-to-its-quarantine-list/#comment-2934025
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/07/coronavirus-israeli-health-ministry-wants-to-add-the-usa-to-its-quarantine-list/#comment-2933134
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/07/coronavirus-israeli-health-ministry-wants-to-add-the-usa-to-its-quarantine-list/#comment-2933347
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/07/coronavirus-israeli-health-ministry-wants-to-add-the-usa-to-its-quarantine-list/#comment-2933222
Steven,
My guess is that the cases in the US, if it were somehow possible to find out how many people have been exposed and either never got sick, had mild illness and recovered, or got very sick but thought they had the flu…etc…that total cases in well over a million.
The state of New York is estimating several tens of thousands in that state alone.
I am figuring it very simply: People all over the entire country who have no known contact with anyone who is infected are turning up with the disease.
All socioeconomic strata, all sorts of occupations, just a broad cross section, and spread all the way out.
So there are chains of transmission occurring…as of weeks ago…in every part of the US, and it is a big place.
I am hoping the number is very large. The larger it is, the more obvious it is that most people have nothing to worry about, and also the more reason to think closing down the country is causing more harm than the virus.
If tens to many hundreds of thousands have been exposed, and the numbers in serious trouble or dying is what it is, then the ratio of infection to dire outcome is low.
And if that many have it, it is obvious it spreads so easily it will probably take total lock down to stamp it out.
But I see no way to test enough people to find out or even estimate, unless it is done in a systematic way and not based on self reporting, but more like the way a poll is done.
Question for you: Do a lot of people in China, Japan, and South Korea, have face masks in a drawer somewhere, all the time?
The first thing they did in China, or one of them, was make everyone wear a mask when outside. And at work too it seems.
That is a lot of masks.
How often are they changed?
Are they dirt cheap?
How do they have enough for everyone without running out?
Here of course, one of the first things they did was scold anyone who bought masks and said do not buy them and you do not need to wear them so don’t.
I cannot help thinking that maybe was a really bad idea.
And also that the US has less masks than some cities in Asia.
If there were 60,000 to 100,000 cases in the U.S. on the 17th, then the virus is more easily transmitted and less virulent, in terms of deaths. It would actually be good news in terms of getting this thing over with sooner and with fewer primary deaths (it’s still important to avoid overburdening the healthcare system). Your guess is unfortunately not likely correct.
Certainly, testing now can confirm whether a patient has the virus or not, and testing was limited initially, but death (the severest of outcome) is obvious. CDC compiles all kinds of relevant statistics that can be used to assign excess deaths.
Independently, a plot of reported cases using current methodology vs deaths is linear over the past week and a half for the U.S. and increases are consistent with observations from other countries.
‘I get text alerts that are tied to my location and the ādistanceā window I set. make that 4, it just went off again.’
I guess that sort of abject cowardice is to be expected from an alarmist.
I wonder what it’s like to go around that afraid all the time?
BTW – I wonder how all that high-density, mass-transit, collectivist philosophy is working out?
That’s nice because the high speed trains of the future will consist of individual pods. This may result in trains being so long that some will get there before they left.
“āI get text alerts that are tied to my location and the ādistanceā window I set. make that 4, it just went off again.ā
I guess that sort of abject cowardice is to be expected from an alarmist.
I wonder what itās like to go around that afraid all the time?
BTW ā I wonder how all that high-density, mass-transit, collectivist philosophy is working out?”
##################
HUH? Afraid?
Lets see.
The other day I was planning on going to Mapo to get my hair cut.
Alarm went off I saw the location, in Mapo, and decided to go to inchon instead.
AFRAID? hell no, INFORMED, hell yes.
or last week. My friend was going to go into our local hospital. Nothing serious.
Alarm went off. Ah shit some traveller had presented in ER with COVID.
No worries, just go to another hospital.
AFRAID? hell no, INFORMED, hell yes.
So weeks ago I told you all not to panic, but to plan.
USA wasnt even at 50 cases.
You all laughed. and called me alarmist.
As I explained, don’t panic, prepare!
But Ya’ll pointed to a a small number of cases, called it a hoax, blah blah blah.
Say hello to Mr exponential
AFRAID? hell no, INFORMED, hell yes.
How many of you sold short? Waaa. I am guessing none.
AFRAID? hell no, INFORMED, hell yes.
“BTW ā I wonder how all that high-density, mass-transit, collectivist philosophy is working out?”
Dunno,
have a look
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
But you see dumbass, They planned. They ran “war games” about this thing back in Decemember.
Imagine that!
But then they live a few miles from a Nutjob with Missiles in North Korea
AFRAID? hell no, INFORMED, hell yes.
“”BTW ā I wonder how all that high-density, mass-transit, collectivist philosophy is working out?”
Dunno, have a look
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Oh shit.
I sold short Steven.
Sort of. I had/have puts.
More leverage.
Also I suggested a look at call options for Gilead.
That was well over a month ago.
Look at the value of those options now.
I never said anything like what you are pointing out, but I know many did.
But some others were calling it a bioweapon.
I have been making extensive comments on every thread on this subject starting with Rud Istvan’s first one. I do not recall if I commented earleir than that here, but I have posted some stuff I wrote elsewhere long before anyone here was talking about it.
I was one of a very few people who knew that what we are seeing now was a very real possibility.
I also called for a very serious situation with the economy and was laughed at.
I said a few weeks ago, maybe a little less, that when a drug that treats it is found to be successful, we will see the largest stock market rally in history.
We have seen that as well, and we will see more of it, but the selling is not over yet either.
Today is triple witching…expirations of futures etc…rebalancing…
Expect crazy volume and huge moves, and a giant explosion at the close…some orders must be made in the form “market on close” by law or stated guidelines.
I know you have decided not to reply to me, so no worries.
I broke my promise not to comment any more here just for you.
Stay safe.
Mr. Mosher: So being informed excludes being afraid? Did Inchon have no cases from before the one ding from Mapo? Anyway, having some fear about this does not make one a coward, means having sense.
But in your life’s education, have you come across a story about a boy who cried wolf? We’ve seen you here crying wolf for many years re: AGW and ignore the facts that adjustments all tend toward your bias. Ignore all signs of benefits to humans of CO2 for plants and warming, while refusing to see that the green solutions to this CO2 crisis are far worse than any problem it could cause. So please forgive us if we hear you say “wolf” again.
You say “plan”. Okay, let’s plan. Let’s say fighting a contagious disease (this one or the next- you agree there will be a “next” right?) is easier when our electric grid is at it’s most reliable. How shall we plan that? It’s clear to any who look that coal, NG (even oil at $20/barrel) is reliable grid worthy cost effective elec. production, and up-front capital costs for wind/solar more costly and need backup. Freeing up money to test for Wuhan virus on bigger scale. What’s the plan?
I wonder – dumbass – how many things in that range are more likely to kill you than coronavirus. .
Yeah, I’m sticking with coward – but I think ‘dumbass’ a nice addition too.
Careful not to step in front of a bus while you’re checking all those virus alerts.
Touched a button, didn’t I?
And by the way, I’m sticking with ‘coward’ – your entire life has been about spreading amorphous terror and paranoia – and then control-freaking over it – you deserve your life.
The Best Gin and Tonic in the World:
10 oz bottle of Tonic* water
4.5 oz (3 shots) gin**
1 oz. Triple Sec
High Ball Glass with ice.
Pour the Triple Sec and the Gin into a suitable mixing container*** and stir,
Add the Tonic Water and stir.
Pour the libation into the glass with ice.
*I prefer Schweppes.
**Tanqueray is my favorite.
***I use a 16oz Pyrex Measuring Cup. Remember the recipie calls for 15.5 oz of ingredients.
I’ll have 2 of those, shaken not stirred, if you please.
As one gets older one relates more and more with those that lived through traumatic events in history. Recently I went through every available doc on WW1. It became as those boys and girls, Mums and Dads, were right here and now.
Toughen up folks. They did.
This is nothing new within human history.
Two other medications along with Chloroquine: Nivaquin and Camaquin. Not certain of the spelling.
Seismic crews working in the tropics learned all about the taste of these tablets. Me? Papua/New Guinea, later Borneo – in the 1960’s.
I wonder why this news is all over scientific journals, and yet there is a deafening silence from the mainstream media…?
That’s because journalists don’t read websites like this and they set up contact systems that completely insulate them from the general public. Try contacting a journalist on a modern newspaper; it is all but impossible.
Every British media organization has been fully informed about this (by me), yet they continue to ignore it.
Generating national hysteria is so much more fun and profitable for them, so why end the party?
Congratulations Sasha, I tried to inform the Telegraph and utterly failed to speak to anyone. I am glad someone has done it.
See 1:36:10 of Presidential News Conference today in the Washington Post video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7QRV4IEf9k
The President evidently asked about Chloroquine this morning during his briefing with scientists. It’s on the radar at least. The answer given by Dr. Birx underplayed its potential by suggesting Chloroquine has only been tested in vitro and in animals. She’s wrong.
It was apparently utilized widely as part of Korea’s nation-wide regimen in mid-February, and afaik, part of their successful “bending” of their own curve of infections. Thus there should be a large body of “in vivo” human test subjects from which to derive medical evidence – not “proof” of efficacy, but enough indication to begin a very large, voluntary test here in U.S.
She’s trying to please the Pres with her nods to his declarations in every sentence, but this, imo, is a failure to dig a little deeper.
I spoke to a board-certified infectious disease specialist who says big pharma and its minions would not like the idea of a dirt cheap pill, taken 2 x’s / day along with a vitamin Zinc that might slow or stop this virus, especially when they have billions riding on expensive remedies still bogged down in various phases of testing with the FDA.
This doctor said, “Now is the time for NIH and VA to step in with funding a clinical trial ASAP.” He went on to say, “If I got the virus I would be strongly tempted to take either chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine if I could get my doctor to prescribe it for me.”
Such a prescription would be considered “off use”, and docs might not do it for fear of complications. It also might not work at all. But I have to wonder why WHO cannont gather that information from both Chinese (who wrote the initial reports on Chloroquine treatment) and S. Koreans, who used it broadly, to synthesize statistical findings of its use – and effectiveness – in those countries.
Go to clinical trials dot gov and see how many trials the Chinese are conducting.
It is a lot.
Evidently they do not think this stuff is the answer.
Trials like that have to eliminate confounding factors, so they cannot give chloroquine to people in trials for other things.
Read between the lines.
This stuff might help some people with some of their symptoms.
But unless it is quantified and compared with something else in a double blind trial, anyone familiar with all of the facts knows it is very hard to be very sure of anything.
Most people getting close attention and supportive care survive…the vast majority.
Some people get well quickly, some take a long time to get well. Some die quickly. Some die after a long time of being sick, sometimes they were very sick the whole time, sometimes it seemed like they were not too bad off and then they suddenly took a turn for the worse and died.
Without documentation and numbers, it is not much more than a reason to take a close look at it…IOW do some damn clinical trials.
Ultimately, it is very likely combinations of drugs will be required, and also some way to identify people quickly and get them started.
Many who survive will have reduced function, perhaps for life in some cases.
There are decades and decades of reasons for doing things a certain way, and many reasons to be skeptical until a result is quantified and confirmed by multiple cohorts and the data reviewed by someone not involved in the care of the patients or the production of the drug.
As for anyone worried no one is studying this…there are at least three studies for this stuff to treat Wuhan Flu.
And many many in using to for other viral infections, like AIDS and such, and to see how it may help with vaccines, etc.
There are always people checking on things, and others who get real excited by a preliminary result and extrapolations or expectations and even wishful thinking>
Nothing wrong with being optimistic.
But there is science, and there is everything else.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=chloroquine&cond=Coronavirus
Trump is going to have a news conference in the moringing with the FDA and it looks like he will be addressing these issues, perhaps lifting some regulations that might stand in the way of testing all these different methods.
That Malaria/Covid-19 comparison of Roy Spencer’s is pretty striking. Keep your fingers crossed.
Given what ‘quick’ means to the FDA, it might be easier to relabel COVID-19 as “Chinese malaria virus”
Not quite. The Daily Mail has this article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8117891/The-promising-therapies-tested-coronavirus-patients.html
No it’s because they are being responsible, the effectiveness has not been scientifically tested. Just because some quack doctor says something and claims something doesn’t make it so …. a lesson that in climate science we have seen over and over.
You need proper clinical trials before giving false hope and that is the process that will be underway.
Belgium appears to have come out with a recommendation to use Chloroquine – in marked contrast to other countries who are maintaining an official silence. It must now be considered as the leading contender for Covid-19 treatment. Clinical trials are starting to report successes. The mainstream media and central governments are still silent.
https://epidemio.wiv-isp.be/ID/Documents/Covid19/COVID-19_InterimGuidelines_Treatment_ENG.pdf
I’ve had a read of the Belgian document. In recent weeks, I’ve become quite adept and reading and judging technical documents outside my field of expertise. It looks to me as though this is good, proper and professional work from the Belgians – something we all need a lot more of in all disciplines, not just in medicine.
The kicker for me is at the bottom of page 4: “It is important for the clinician to be aware that the critical period for complications is 5 to 7 days after symptom onset.” That tallies with my own experience, as I’m more and more coming to suspect that I actually had this thing (very mildly) way back at the end of January, around the same time that the first UK confirmed case was reported. The worst part was the cough on the seventh day, after the initial mild fever/cold had already run its course.
Given that onset period, their treatment recommendations in Table 2 on page 5 seem to hit the mark exactly. Looking at Annex 2, the Dutch also seem to be getting it right. I think they ought to be circulating this to every physician in Europe.
Exactly what I noticed, and a few colleagues.
One put’s it down to the “usual” colds, but somehow more persistent and thoroughly aggravating.
Never had pneumonia, or a bad ‘flu (fingers crossed), but began to wonder about that.
I am beginning to wonder if I had it in mid-February. Woke in the night with a huge fever, woke again hours later with ‘fever gone’, blinding headache for two days, serious dose of the runs. I still have the low energy levels that I associate with flu recovery.
I am holding my breathe every morning ans timing it. So far the times are getting longer, I will be back to the 3 minutes of my swimming days at this rate. If it suddenly starts to get worse I know I am starting pneumonia.
Dodgy,
Read it more carefully.
It says what everyone has known for weeks and the CDC has been saying and lots have talked about.
Remdesivir is not widely available in sufficient quantity, and is being reserved for the most severe cases.
If remdesivir is not available, give (hydroxy)chloroquine. If remdesivir becomes available, switch to it.
What must now be considered is that remdesivir is the leading candidate for a drug that will save lives of patients with Wuhan Flu.
For being who are having organ failure, it says, it is preferable not to use chloroquine since:
“However, since the clinical
efficacy of
(hydroxy)chloroquine is not
demonstrated, caution is
required in case of kidney/
liver/cardiac failure, and abstention in such situations is
preferred”
Nothing new here.
But it is summarized in a very organized way.
I think it is a sure bet that every ER in the world has a similar document guiding care.
Look at annex 2: In all four countries, Remdesivir is the preferred treatment for the most severe patients.
Once it is approved, which it seems very likely to be, it will be the first choice for everyone if it is the best drug for the purpose.
Unless someone would rather save some money I guess.
The problem could be supply, but as I reported here over a month ago, Gilead has, since January, enlisted several facilities around the world to manufacture remdseivir, and switched one US factory from something else to full time remdesivir production, and another in the US that was idle was activated for purpose and has also been making it 24/7 since January…so hopefully there is plenty.
Gilead is being cautious with teh protocol because they have decades of experience with making sure that once they know…they KNOW, and can prove it beyond doubt.
It sounds to me like they have known it for months, and have said all they can, legally and ethically.
Read between the lines.
There are people who are very smart and very experienced in virology, new drug approval, and how and why antiviral medications work and when.
I am sure of a few things, and among them is that this entire situation will have moved the whole world way ahead in the fight against infectious diseases, just as AIDS, HCV, and Ebola have done previously.
Ten years from now things will be different.
There is also a chance that remdesivir will be found to be inferior to choloroquine.
But who they are giving what at this stage makes me think some knowledgeable people know some things they are not at liberty to say right now.
I do not think the Swiss are giving their people something based on profit motive.
Maybe I am naive.
But I tend to think some people are more intelligent than they are greedy or heartless.
“The problem could be supply, but as I reported here over a month ago, Gilead has, since January, enlisted several facilities around the world to manufacture remdseivir, and switched one US factory from something else to full time remdesivir production, and another in the US that was idle was activated for purpose and has also been making it 24/7 since Januaryā¦so hopefully there is plenty.”
That’s good news.
Just to be clear, this set of guidelines makes it clear exactly why anecdotal evidence will often give a skewed perspective.
The sickest people are being triaged to receive a different treatment.
So that means the people getting the malaria drug are not as bad off to begin with.
And only the worst off are at risk of dying.
And bias like this will not let a valid comparison to be made…it is the definition of comparing apples and oranges.
The Ebola trials was a perfect analogy for this entire discussion.
One treatment worked great.
But two others were even better.
The one that works great was therefore deemed to not be the best choice.
I think everyone wants to best choice.
We also need to know when the stuff that is cheap pills will be preferred, and how much benefit it provides.
Only quantified results from objectively performed study can reveal these important details.
How can anyone know at this point which is better and should be the stuff factories are cranking out?
Is vitamin C in high dose IV better than chloroquine?
Only a study can tell us.
If they are equal, which is better?
The ultrasafe for everyone vitamin, or the kind of safe stuff that is OK for many but very dangerous for a few?
If remdesivir is the best choice, can it be made into a pill?
The sooner the first questions have an answer, the sooner other questions can be looked at…like which two things used together is best of all?
We need a baseline of data to find out.
Random anecdotal evidence will never reveal precisely what is best and when.
Update of the Belgium document for use by ER personnel: Note that the document has been extensively revised and a bunch of far more cautious language has been added, as of 3-24-20.
https://epidemio.wiv-isp.be/ID/Documents/Covid19/COVID-19_InterimGuidelines_Treatment_ENG.pdf
In case anyone is tempted to home medicate:
” the margin between the therapeutic and toxic dose is narrow and chloroquine
poisoning has been associated with cardiovascular disorders that can be
life-threatening (Frisk-Holmberg et al., 1983). Chloroquine and hy-
droxychloroquine use should therefore be subject to strict rules, and
self-treatment is not recommended.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.antiviral.2020.104762
While in Burma, 1946 to 48 and later in Papua New Guinea 1956 to 73, we again took anti malerian tablets. No Malaria and TB which is rife up there.
Now we hear that it, the Queenine group of drugs have potential, with no side effects . So lets dose all persons with this cheap drug and hop for the best.
VK5ELL MJE
As others point out CHLOROQUINE IS NOT QUININE.
In any of the articles discussing the effect of chloroquine on coronavirus I have seen no mention of quinine being tested to see if it posesses the same antiviral effects. Just because it is also an anti malarial does not necessarily mean that it also posesses antiviral effects.
As a medicinal chemist, comparing the structures of the two molecules I would actually predict that quinine would be less likely to be a potent zinc ionophore (if at all). It is this property that is actually given as chloroquine’s likely mode of antiviral action, not the antimalarial properties (which are to be due to the different property of preventing hemozoin aggregation in malaria-infected cells).
It seems that bromo-quinine was once a popular treatment for colds:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=bromo+quinine&_sacat=0
There is a reason they call it tonic water.
The reason being that it contains quinine which is a real antimalarial, and not a proven zinc ionophore.
And (Chas) it is going to take more than showing that bromoquinine is available for sale on ebay to convince me that bromoquinine is an effective zinc ionophre either.
I was referring to the historic reason for the naming of it.
The Graun has an article this morning about reports from the Chinese of a Japanese drug being effective, albeit not very effective,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/japanese-flu-drug-clearly-effective-in-treating-coronavirus-says-china
The fly in the ointment is that the Japanese Health Ministry say they have tried it and it doesn’t seem to wotk well when the virus has already multiplied.
That an anti-malaria drug would help got me wondering if Northern Italy might be prone to malaria in case this past exposure to malaria could explain the number of deaths there. It apparently isn’t prone to malaria but is struck by another mosquito-borne illness – West Nile Virus.
The description of West Nile Virus is generally similar to Covid-19. 80% who get it will show no symptoms. The rest appear to have the flu. A small percentage will get encephalitis and meningitis which can become fatal. It is also present in bat populations. Could past exposure to WNV lead to a greater risk from Covid-19?
When the Chinese authorities first began dealing with Covid-19 it was reportedly viewed as not contagious. Were they spraying disinfectant or insecticides in Wuhan?
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2020/02/i-cant-wait-hold-my-kids-again-life-inside-wuhans-quarantine
That anti-malaria drugs can affect this disease in no way means that malaria has anything to do with the disease. Besides use of the drug would have a positive not a negative effect.
Further, malaria was eradicated in Italy a long time ago. It is not mosquito season. The Chinese sprayed disinfectant, that contained hydrogen peroxide as the active ingredient. It is not mosquito season in Wuhan either.
Horses can get West Nile virus, should we stop riding them?
My thinking was a previous bout of malaria or WNV might make you more likely to suffer the worst effects of Covid-19, as an explanation for the deaths in Southern Europe. An over-reaction from the immune system or something like that.
The elderly patients would be old enough to have been at risk from malaria in Italy, Spain, etc as children.
Yeah, maybe.
Or maybe not.
It seems to take a long time to get pneumonia and die.
An over reaction from the immune system would seem to be what happens when people get severe symptoms soon after infection and a rapid course of disease progression.
Best to stick with evidence.
There are people studying this in labs all over the world who know everything anyone here knows and a lot more.
Iām in the South Shore area of Ma. About 22 miles south of Boston. We now have 2 cases in our small community and Boston will most become another Italy.
Hospitalizations for coronavirus escalate in Greater Boston
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/18/metro/hospitalizations-covid-19-escalate-greater-boston/%3foutputType=amp
Massachusetts hospitals began to see a mounting number of suspected coronavirus patients Tuesday, an ominous indication that the pandemic may be spreading in the region at a clip that is more rapid than the official state numbers imply.
Massachusetts General Hospital officials said the number of patients suspected to have COVID-19 in their emergency room or in beds had quadrupled to 53 between Monday and Tuesday, in addition to three other confirmed cases in intensive care and three in regular beds.
Hi John: I have family and own property in Boston, and used to work at the steel foundry Wollaston Alloys in Braintree… right around where you’re describing.
Is this effect of anti-malarials a possible expanation for the surprising result of Willis E’s analysis of the data from the Diamond Princess in an earlier post? Provided the data are reasonably accurate, his analysis showed that 83% did not contract the disease, despite being stranded under incubator conditions for weeks. The 17% that did test positive included those who were asymptomatic.
It seems to contradict the received wisdom about infectivity, etc.
Is it possible that these drugs could have influenced the Diamond Princess outcome?
Given the general area the ship was due to cruise in, it seems likely that many of those onboard would have been taking anti-malarials (or had taken them on other trips).
It would be interesting to see if there is a common factor in the medical backgrounds of the passengers and crew which could have influenced their susceptibility, such as taking anti-malarials.
I would guess that the use of anti-malarials on the ship by passengers and crew was virtually zero, unless gin and tonics were counted.
Mikehig, an interesting idea.
I took a cruise in January-February this year, to South America, departing Tilbury, 8th January 2020; accordingly, I took chloroquine from before arriving on the Amazon, to a week or so after leaving the last malarial area. Many others did, according to conversations I had with passengers and crew.
There was a considerable outbreak of a cold-like infection, involving much coughing, on the ship [crew, and passengers like me].
The Company has subsequently confirmed that “air-conditioning systems on board have to be regularly maintained and serviced in-keeping with current maritime regulations” – not a confirmation that they were actually so maintained, and a less than ringing endorsement of on-board maintenance, I feel . . .
To the best of my knowledge [limited, certainly], there was no Wuhan-ite on board. Nor was I aware of any passenger who had recently been in the Far East [again, limited knowledge].
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Chloroquine is used to cut heroin. Iām sure other agents are too but)…
It would be a fascinating study to see if users are nit getting sick or are asymptomatic.
https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2009/June/afghanistan-identifies-cutting-agents-for-heroin.html
Here’s another approach which is said to be promising:
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/cocktail-of-flu-hiv/
Lot’s of good potential.
Thank you Anthony for making this information available. It still seems to be ignored in all media outlets. If indeed this is a cure for the virus this information needs to be broadly disseminated. It certainly could result in the saving of lives and bring down the panic that has recently been seen in the world.
It has been widely discussed for well over a month.
I am just making sure my serum vitamin D is correct. And I am taking 45-60mg of zinc. Manuka honey lozenges and Cell Power. Emergen-C is always on hand.
I only get sick when I stop that regimen. But the sickness lasts only a day or two once I ramp up again.
How do you get your serum tested on a regular basis? Also is that your standard zinc intake, or as a prophylactic for the current situation? 45 is considered the upper daily limit.
It’s not cheap to test your serum level of D. I do take a lot of D3, 50mcg 3x /day, which is about 6000 iu. This is far less than the amount one would get from being in direct (mostly full body) sunlight for 15 minutes with the insolation level of CA Bay area in summer time.
So I assume I am at ample level and not taking too much, but I do not really know since I do not pay to get it tested.
Do you take vitamin K with that 6000 IU? I’ve read that’s important.
I do not… but it’s in some other stuff I take. I also eat Ju’ce from Costco and several other green powders every day. tons of stuff in there plus probiotics from several sources. I am a nutrient rich haven… probably wasteful but… That’s probably fine right?
“Thatās probably fine right?”
Most excellent, I’d say.
“Most excellent, Iād say.”
Great! Thank you… icisil
–and I forgot about the vitamin K or K12, and do not want to have to add even more supplements to my regimen… so the various Juice and vegetable powders I consume in my morning drink hopefully cover me. I also eat dry cheeses, kale, nut butters, and lots of greens in all forms along with my all the colors of meat, especially red when my wife lets me.
Interestingly, I have had a few areas of actinic keratosis, and was told there is no cure, and in which I had no luck in removing by freezing. As of several years ago, I’d had it on my face for at least 15 years. Since then, it slowly diminished and disappeared. I’ve also had basal cell carcinoma… it too has disappeared. I still go out and drink in the sun, but try not to get burned. The vitamin D and other benefits of solar radiation are too numerous for me to end up pale and unhealthy.
And none of that is likely to make any difference but if it makes you feel less anxious go ahead and do it.
Covid19 has a very specific attack on your respiratory system it doesn’t really give a rats about the rest of your body.
Dr Spencerās maps showing general inverse geographic correlation to high malaria and high Covid-19 areas is very interesting . There are some notable exception countries that malaria and Covid-19 are both high including Iran, Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia. Is there anything in common with these countries (such as national religion prohibiting gin & tonic)?
Malaria has developed a resistance in the Indonesian archipelago of southeast Asia, therefore it’s unlikely that it would still be given as a prophylactic for malaria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12114045
Now the equivalent medicine for the banking system, undergoing convulsions, is quarantine with a very large dose of Glass-Steagall, the ultimate financial tonic.
FDR used this medicine generously in 1934, after a quarantine Bank Holiday – the patient, the Economy, improved dramatically.
It is critical that President Trump administer this medicine fast to the FED and Wall Street, as he promised campaigning, before Contagion spreads globally. The City of London is notoriously Glass-Steagall resistant, very much like the resistant malaria plasmodium – a stronger variant may be needed, Prime Minister Johnson!
Check CDC chloroquine tab on this site for dosage usage etc. Note it can be used during pregnancy. My family used it when working in Nigeria 1964/5.The government should arrange for it to be given out free to everyone
via drug stores starting with the hot spots and the elderly-( I declare my interest in the latter category)
https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/travelers/drugs.html
The UK’s last 24 hours Wednesday update is very grim, follows the Italian case with two weeks delay (3000 dead current Italian total)
Infected up 35% from 1950 to 2626
Dead up nearly 50% from 71 to 104
Note graph is exponential
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/UK-COVID-19.htm
I had a little fright when I saw the deaths cross above the infected, then I saw it’s own scale on the right hand axis.
Italy’s exponential growth phase may be over.
“Italyās exponential growth phase may be over.”
I hope you’re correct, however, based on this, I do not see that… Note the slope of the linear ramp in cases does not ‘appear’ to be flattening. Would be nice to see a first derivative of the data!
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
Page down and switch to logarithmic scales by clicking on the word. It seems that growth rates have been slowing marginally. Remember that a constant growth rate produces a straight line on a log plot.
Yes, I get that about the log and straight line. Maybe the slope (rate) of the increase in deaths is slightly bending but it could also be the timing of tests being reported. Today’s daily deaths is 38% greater than yesterday’s. I hope it flattens and declines sooner than later!
My reply didn’t show up here, but basically, looking at the Italy data on a log scale it can be seen that the exponent is shrinking.
That is not the case with the U.S. data which show that cases and deaths are increasing at a constant exponential rate that is perfectly linear on a log scale.
A plot of U.S. cases vs deaths, even without compensating for any time lag, is linear with R=0.997.
Yes, thank you for pointing that out. We’re at a much lower point but accelerating faster. I’d say the deaths adding up are not due to recent testing, which means that is more concerning than assuming it’s because we are now testing more.
Its started. The economics of war. I rent in a smallish sea-side town. Its usually choked up with backpackers, campervans, and day-trippers. They are thinning, out thank God.
Right next door there is a BnB. The longest stay there is 3 days. Yesterday a grey old lady struggled her way up my stairs. I had left a car in the driveway. I thought it strange. They are usually youngish. This one did not have a surfboard. This morning the penny dropped, She, and her equally-old passenger, are self-isolating.
All over the Western world townies are fleeing to the countryside. There are lots of vacant dwellings in my town. Many are just investments and stay vacant. Others are BnB. They are going to fill up, not with foreigners, but Kiwis. The poor sods think that they can avoid the virus. They wonāt.
Nevertheless, I am planning to move my family back to our old farmhouse. Its old, its tatty but its ours. On the other hand, I could probably rent it for a goodly amount. Some people are going to make a lot of money out of this virus. Townies will not make friends with their county cousins. We were the deplorable bumpkins up to a moment ago.
Also reported at the Illumina Inc website that seqauence comparisons of SARS virus and the new Covid19 virus suggest that drugs developed to target SARS should also work against CoVid19.
Another strand to follow, perhaps?
wow most I have ever seen for comments.
So here is a good video that puts Climate change and a Pandemic on the same page..
these people are sick.
I see that Greta still has those 2 BIG meat eating dogs stealing her youth and her future.
During the Vietnam War, in 1967, when I was helping a medic I found a bottle of quinine in his kit. I asked him why- he said that if he found somebody with a virus infection he would give the quinine to the patient so he/she would survive until proper medical treatment could be given in a hospital. After that I spread that bit of information to many rural areas in asia and elsewhere- and I passed the info to many in the Peace Corps, which I was in charge of for 32 years, as asked by 7 US Presidents.
Is corona virus going to shut down (for time being) all but the must profitable of oil producers, and who is the most exposed to the crude price collapse ?
David Middletonās opinion would be appreciated, perhaps in a new update thread.
https://oilprice.com/commodity-price-charts?1&page=chart&sym=CLJ20&name=Crude%20Oil%20WTI
I remember hearing about another malaria treatment called “primaquine” but I know zero about whether it’s more of a preventative than a treatment, etc. Maybe it’s an alternative to chloroquine?
I’m just adding the name here for discussion.
On Coronavirus: if youāre old you might die. The end.
On Arctic sea ice. Maximum just passed, highest in 5 years. Almost vanished from the internet including from WUWT reference pages. Thatās news.
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/icecover.uk.php
” Almost vanished from the internet .. ”
Not for me:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19I6WWxw-xavC0H7K7tS_Ocef8BE2gzcs/view
Daily anomalies wrt the mean of 1981-2010 show the situation more accurate.
I would await October before telling us anything.
J.-P. D.
On march 4, temporary max was 15.155 mio qkm
What is your point – apart from your typical coolista attitude?
That in October you can’t see any maximum, that was in question.
I understand, having looked through quite a lot of papers, that chloroquine has been considered as an antiviral treatment for a number of years, and has been trialled against a number of viruses, with no marked successful result.
Could this be yet another attempt to propose it for use against yet another virus?
You saw that too, huh?
There were a whole bunch that tested it in various situations for HIV and a bunch of others.
If it has broad antiviral activity, there would be places that had like zero people dying of any of those viruses.
No evidence of that either.
There were a lot of drugs that had some effect on HCV viral loads…some very dramatic.
All but a handful ultimately failed in clinical trials.
Ebola kills people quickly.
Remdesivir worked very well on it, and people with Ebola have enormous viral loads.
It would have been a miracle drug against Ebola if it had not been tested with something that was even more miraculous.
So it works well and works fast, and it is generally safe, although that can mean something other than “everyone can eat it like skittles”.
I have lupus and am taking hydroxychlorquine; however, I have been sick for the last 3 weeks with no fever. However, Iāve had a sore throat, then I improved for 2 days, and then lost my voice and have had a dry cough and chest pain ever since (week 3 1/2 now). Again, I have never had a temperature above 99.3; however the respiratory symptoms have been ridiculous. Is there/will there be a test to see if Iāve had Covid-19? It would be interesting to see if I did and, at least anecdotally, be able to see if the Plaquenil helped with avoiding a more severe issue.
Google News [Yes, I know . . .] now has several main-streamish results when I search Chloroquine.
Perhaps progress.
Perhaps.
As someone up-thread said, surely governments should now issue seven [ten?] days’ Chloroquine tablets to everyone – starting with the elderly, and health care workers. Cost for the UK – perhaps Ā£100 million [arm-waving number]. A very small fraction of the Ā£330,000 million stimulus the Chancellor announced yesterday.
Auto
Quinine Sulfate is used to treat falciparum malaria which resistant to the drug chloroquine
‘Falciparum malaria is the most dangerous type of malaria, it is associated with high levels of parasites in the blood and has the highest death rate and rate of complications of all types of malaria.’
I ordered QS tablets, due to be delivered in a couple of days time. If get Covid I will certainly try it, my wife isn’t too enthusiastic, will see, in such unhappy circumstance will report here if able to, hopefully QS is less deadly than the virus.
I think in terms of lowering ones metabolic age… or maybe it should be biologic age. If we feed our immune systems, we should be able to fight off viruses faster than they can consume us. Taking the ingredients to give us an “unfair” advantage is a great idea too. Attack it from all means possible!
At 55 years of age, I get fewer viral flus and colds than I used to get, and they only last a day or two. I am usually the last one in my proximity to get it if I do at all. The recent Covid 19 was long for me, 5 days of severe symptoms. My wife was sick with something in her lungs in December for 8 to 10 weeks.
So, maybe the pounding of Zn did something for me, maybe it is a well fed immune system, but I did not know about or try the various quinine formulations. Had I done so, based on reading all the thoughtful posts here, I’d probably be thinking that’s what did the trick.
In summary, I do not know for certain that I actually had Covid 19, and will take the test if there is a pop up self-test station appears near me. Maybe it’s still in me in a weakened state… I just don’t know, but would certainly like to find out AFTER symptomatic people have their chance to get tested first.
If you take anything else, you may be ineligible to get in a trial for remdesivir.
In fact I think you surely will be.
You would not speak to your doctor first?
I thought you all had that medical system we would have (in the US) if we were smarter?
But it sounds like you do not trust them as much as you trust your own judgement and preliminary reports.
I am genuinely curious about this.
Hi Nicholas
UK’s NHS has loads of problems, at the moment for country pop. 65 millions has only 5000 intensive care units (ICU) equipped with respirators/ventilators. On the other hand Germany with 82 million has about 25 thousand similar but better equipped units.
In the UK currently there is no spare capacity in ICU, with more than thousand Covid hospitalised and the rest of the units taken by other critical cases. In very near future (matter of days) it’s going to be a lottery who gets allocated ICU, where for the covid patients average stay is 16 days. The early patients were lucky, it is expected that up to 250,000 or more may get on critical list and āIf we can get this (the dead) down to 20,000 and below, that is a good outcome” said the UK’s chief scientific adviser. Choose who get’s a ICU, a careless badly injured in his early 20s boy car racer or a 60+ year old retired corona virus patient? Choice is clear.
VUK – “Choose who getās a ICU, a careless badly injured in his early 20s boy car racer or a 60+ year old retired corona virus patient? Choice is clear.”
Yep, the 60+ should get it. The boy car racer is a future Darwin Award recipient, shouldn’t waste a bed on him.
A person really should be free to take a drug if they want to, aside from addictive drugs or pain killers. Having to go through a doctor is complete BS and a fundamental assault on freedom and liberty.
In the USA many drugs are prescription only. You can get these some of these same drugs in Canada OTC at less than half the cost.
‘Kay, bye!
Best hurry before they close the border!
your OTC availability is a huge amount more than in Aus as an example you can get antibiotic creams w out script
here we have to see a doc or a vet for something like that
so instead of a few dollars it adds around 70$ to the cost
tricin powder to puff into animal wounds is 100 a bottle in aus
a 5ml tube of it as cream is 30
“The map says it all: COVID-19 is where Malaria is not.”
I suspect that’s because they aren’t testing much in those countries yet, especially in Africa.
And we just ignore Indonesia and Malaysia a mere 200M people sample and high Malaria rate š
I can give you other explanations for the map which are probably better fits than that but I really don’t want to encourage speculation.
Malaria has developed a resistance in the Indonesian archipelago of southeast Asia, therefore itās unlikely that it would still be given as a prophylactic for malaria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12114045
No one cares anymore even if you show chloroquine and zinc or malaria incidence 100% correlations the powers to be are convinced about coronavirus and global warming and are basically going to cause the death of billions of people due to human stupidity as Einstein said. It happens every 50 years or so. 99% germans thought Hitler was a genious at the time. No one will even look at this stuff. Is it anywhere in mainstream?? It looks like Trump is just another idiot unfortunately who has fallen for this horse s@@@.
Nazis, Einstein, Illuminati Plot to Kill Us All, Billions dead every 50 years, Trump is the AntiChrist…
I think you touched all the bases on that comment!
Bravo!
If true this could be very good news.
Daily Telegraph: A rapid test for coronavirus which could give a result in just 30 minutes for people at home, has been developed by Oxford University.
The super sensitive test, which can picks up the virus in its very early stages when it might otherwise have been missed, could be rolled out to testing centres within a fortnight and could soon be available for home use.
Previous viral RNA tests took 1.5 to 2 hours to give a result slowing down the ability to respond quickly to the crisis.
The technology has been validated with clinical samples at Shenzhen Luohou Peopleās Hospital in China and has a 100 per cent success rate at picking up both positive and negative results.
Prof Zhanfeng Cui, the Director of the Oxford Suzhou Centre for Advanced Research (OSCAR) said it would initially be used at medical centres but the team hoped people would eventually be allowed to test themselves at home.
No false positives, and no false negatives? Too good to be true .. probably just a press release. By the way, what exactly does it test? Does it tell you “you have a virus now”, or “you had the virus some time ago”, or “you have never encountered the virus”?
Viral RNA tests generally indicate the virus is present on the surface that was swabbed.
Regarding Dr. Roy Spencer’s comment in OP:
I wish he would take that comment to its logical conclusion. What is he saying?
The institues of health in those countries no doubt have records of who is currently on Chloroquine Sulfate or other anti-malarial drugs. Isolate that cohort and distill the percentage who have come down with COVID-19 or other corona viruses.
Actually I wonder if this may have already been done but not acted upon over Big Pharma objections. You guys are burnin’ daylight!
His map is extremely misleading. This link has a far more nuanced map.
From Spencer’s map showing where coronavirus is, you’d think all of Canada and Alaska is affected. That’s just not true. Also, there are small outbreaks in Africa where Spencer shows none.
So, based on my link above, coronavirus tends not to be where malaria is and it also tends not to be in cold places. Once again, General Winter seems to be riding to Russia’s defense.
I commented above Indonesia and Malaysia alone throws his conclusion into chaos. The reason for winter having an effect seems to be social distancing it has been discussed in proper context by authorities.
There is also the claim type A blood groups are more hit based on early numbers out of China but we have no data on what the actual percentages are in the areas of China they just took world averages and it shows type A is over-represented in the deaths.
I think it may have something to do with the fact that countries with malaria are mostly poor countries, and may not have as many people travelling around the world and then going back to there.
Also, they may not have the best data gathering and up to the minute reporting.
And finally, it appears to not be true whatsoever that “COVID-19 is where Malaria is not.”
At least not when I look at maps of Malaria in the world, and FluHan-Wu.
I see almost complete overlap:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/world-map.html
https://i.insider.com/58137ff6b28a6477058b5958
Why would the use Chloroquine in areas where Malaria has become resistant to it??
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12114045
The population density in Nunavut is 0.02 people per square kilometer.
My grouse is with the map. His numbers, on the other hand, are very plausible. If you take all the countries with no malaria as a group, they have a far higher incidence of coronavirus. Of course Greenland has no malaria and also no coronavirus. And Malaysia has both. IMHO, it’s the aggregate numbers that tell the story.
Malaria is endemic and being eliminated in increasingly large regions. or at least diminished.
This new virus is expanding from a localized point source, and is spreading via travelers and social contacts of a specific nature.
Correlation and causation?
How will these maps change over time?
How did they look two months ago?
Two months from now?
The red blob in europe looks quite dramatic. I wonder what this map would look like with common influenza…
Normal death rates per second and day month year please consider in light of current stupidity https://www.medindia.net/patients/calculators/world-death-clock.asp probably half are viral/bacterial respiratory/cardiac conditions which are NORMAL in older gents. This corona virus is a complete furffy
Normal death rates per second and day month year consider in light of current stupidity https://www.medindia.net/patients/calculators/world-death-clock.asp probably half are viral/bacterial respiratory/cardiac conditions which are NORMAL in older gents. This corona virus is a complete furffy
You mean furphy? Just sayin’
Yes too much gin cheers
Had to look that one up. I don’t suppose you’re from down under?
LOL: No, I read her post and thought the word was odd and Googled it… found the correct spelling. I live in Bay Area, CA.
Vitamin C (ascorbic Acid) has excellent proven effectiveness vs. viruses and in particular flu viruses. There are dozens of peer-reviewed articles demonstrating this. The most effective doses (around 1000 mg/every 4 hours) are a kind “drug effect” by “armoring” the cells against virus penetration. The high doses are necessary to maintain the blood concentration because the body very effectively eliminates it in the urine. The most effective forms that cause little or no stomach upset are the calcium, magnesium and/or zinc ascorbate forms.
Eliminating solid food and doubling or tripling non-sugar liquid intake (and eliminating white sugar) can and should kill the virus in less than 2 days. I have done this many times with the seasonal flu. It is a strong supplement to the immune system.
Here are some articles on the effect of vitamin C:
https://europepmc.org/article/med/25011511
https://iubmb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/biof.5520310101
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3181/00379727-232-2320847
Good luck to us all in this mindless panic!!
Ian in Vancouver
I should have said that the exponent appears to be decreasing as seen on the log scale, however, large increases in cases have a ways to go, it’s just that cases will not double as quickly.
See Eschenbach’s recent article on the Gompertz Curve. It seems that many of the hot spots are showing a decline in the rate of infection.
Hope someone will take a closer look at the statements of Dr Wodarg on the coronavirus alarmism. Alarmism – for whatever reason – forces people to make irrational and foolish decisions which can only hurt them and those they love.
In answer to a recent question Dr Wodarg said:
I consider the border closures, the cancellation of major events, the closure of schools and kindergartens and the quarantine measures that go beyond the scope practiced in previous years to be medically and epidemiologically unjustifiable. They are not indexed, are based on a falsifying application of an insufficiently validated test and, due to the neglect of important principles of evidence-based disease control, lead to the grossly negligent damage to liberties, property and health.
https://publikumskonferenz.de/blog/2020/03/18/loesung-des-corona-problems-panikmacher-isolieren/?utm_source=Nachrichten-Fabrik.de&utm_content=link
A positive result is being achieved in China with the use of Avigan, a Fuji developed drug.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/China-says-Japan-developed-drug-Avigan-works-against-coronavirus
Study from France:
COVID-19
On 16 March 2020, Professor Raoult announced that a trial involving 24 patients from the south east of France supported the claim that chloroquine was an effective treatment for COVID-19. 600mg of hydroxychloroquine (brand name Plaquenil) was administered to these patients every day for 10 days. While chloroquine has a long safety record, the patients were closely monitored for drug interactions and potential severe side effects. The drug appeared to be responsible for a “rapid and effective speeding up of their healing process, and a sharp decrease in the amount of time they remained contagious”. Professor Raoult said: āWe included everyone who was in agreement [to be treated], which was almost everyone. Two towns in the protocol, Nice and Avignon, gave us [infected] patients who had not yet received treatment…We were able to ascertain that patients who had not received Plaquenil (the drug containing hydroxychloroquine) were still contagious after six days, but of those that had received Plaquenil, after six days, only 25% were still contagious.ā
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult
How would you like to be an old person in the control group who received no quinine?
Based on the article and prompted by Dr Roy Spencer update, I went to my friendly Pharmacist here in La Paz, Mexico and was able to Buy for $15 USDs 30 150 mg tablets of Chloroquine over the counter.
I’m not going to take any of them unless I get a doctor permission … but at least I won’t get malaria …
From the article:
“As per the U.S. CDC, āChloroquine (also known as chloroquine phosphate) is an antimalarial medicineā¦ Chloroquine is available in the United States by prescription onlyā¦ Chloroquine can be prescribed for either prevention or treatment of malaria. Chloroquine can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers.ā[2]
CDC research also shows that āchloroquine can affect virus infection in many ways, and the antiviral effect depends in part on the extent to which the virus utilizes endosomes for entry. Chloroquine has been widely used to treat human diseases, such as malaria, amoebiosis, HIV, and autoimmune diseases, without significant detrimental side effects.ā[3]”
JPP
Lots of side effects from large doses of quinine – look them up – I did yesterday. Did not save the page.
Drinking a tonic water right now. Probably too little to help.
Hopefully, they will work out dosage and optimum time to take to minimize side effects.
This virus problem is a paradigm change until there is a vaccine or very effective treatment.
This virus problem is going to make living in any large city hell. People have no idea what is to come. Add in 20% unemployment.
London is starting to shutdown their underground stations. A large city with no transport and no services is pathetic.
In small cities people can travel by car to get services at limited locations.
Drugs.com lists a lot of side effects from Chloroquine:
From a comment up thread:
https://www.drugs.com/cdi/chloroquine.html
I don’t think I am going to take it even though I have 30 capsules of it…
Thanks to Nicholas McGinley March 18, 2020 at 2:22 pm comment. . .
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/17/an-effective-treatment-for-coronavirus-covid-19-has-been-found-in-a-common-anti-malarial-drug/#comment-2940930
JPP
Some malaria treatments use 600mg tablets John.
You may find little impact from your 150mg tablets.
Say 80 ppm quinine in Tonic Water in a 330ml (330gm) standard pop can .
Hope I get this right: ~80ppm quinine * ~330g, tonic water = 0.0264 gm quinine = 26.4 mg per 330ml can of Tonic Water.
So a 150 mg quinine tablet would be equivalent to drinking 6 cans of tonic water.
I doubt you will have any side effects from a 150mg tablet ā try a weight-adjusted portion on the cat.
Regards, Allan
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=172.575
Sec. 172.575 Quinine.
Quinine, as the hydrochloride salt or sulfate salt, may be safely used in food in accordance with the following conditions:
Uses Limitations
In carbonated beverages as a flavor Not to exceed 83 parts per million, as quinine. Label shall bear a prominent declaration of the presence of quinine either by the use of the word “quinine” in the name of the article or through a separate declaration.
Reportedly Chloroquine works much better than raw quinine for this virus. But have a G&T anyway!
Has anyone seen anything about this on the news ? CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, Etc. Mark levin quoted from the article on his radio show tonight … I don’t know if it was the WUWT article though and he didn’t mention the Update
Gregory Rigano was interviewed on Fox New’s Tucker Carson program tonight
discussing this treatment and new trials.—->
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/malaria-drug-sees-promising-signs-as-future-coronavirus-treatment
I’m of the opinion that this is a manufactured hoax.
Yes, it was on Fox tonight. The study was pretty small, obviously needs to be replicated. Anything that gets me off this couch, as well as a couple billion other people back to work and play, Hurry! There is some money at stake as well, as trillions evaporate from the stock markets worldwide….
COVID19 Treatment by HydroChloroquine & azithromycin
An Effective Treatment for Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Presented by: James M. Todaro, MD (Columbia MD, jtodaro2@gmail.com) and Gregory J. Rigano, Esq. (grigano1@jhu.edu)
https://twitter.com/RiganoESQ/status/1239780304082124800
Gautreta et al. (2020) Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVIDā19: results of an openālabel nonārandomized clinical trial. International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents ā In Press 17 March 2020 ā DOI : 10.1016/j.ijantimicag.2020.105949
An Open Data Clinical Trial for COVID-19 Prevention
INTERVIEW – GREGORY RIGANO – co-author on study of Chloroquine, Advisor to the Stanford University School of Medicine
Correlation does not prove causation.
Could it be that malaria and the use of these drugs are linked to higher temperatures and it is these higher temperatures that are not virus friendly?
I have seen several references to higher temps killing this virus.
Tim
You remarked, “I have seen several references to higher temps killing this virus.” Indeed, the reason people develop a fever appears to be the body making the host an inhospitable place for the invader. It would stand to reason that ambient temperatures over 106 deg F would be even more hostile to this and other viruses.
According to Science Daily:’ An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered ‘.
From the Smithsonian Magazine Nov 2017:
” Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? “.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/china-ground-zero-future-pandemic-180965213/
It is true though, that before it had ever been encountered in the wild it was first created in a lab!
https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debate-over-risky-research-1.18787
And while it may not have been “engineered” as such, the odds that it didn’t come from the Wuhan lab that was experimenting with the virus on live animals are millions to one! The lab has live infected species in cages and the chance of crossover, was intentional!
It is true though, that before it had ever been encountered in the wild it was first created in a lab!
https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debate-over-risky-research-1.18787
And while it may not have been “engineered” as such, the odds that it didn’t come from the Wuhan lab that was experimenting with the virus on live animals are millions to one! The lab has live infected species in cages and the chance of crossover, was intentional!
The Telegraph:
On Tuesday evening, the President of Italyās Liguria region Giovanni Toti said the area had seen āthe first real case of coronavirus curedā, a 79-year-old man who was treated with remdesivir. He is due to return to his home in Lombardy soon.
Bruce Aylward of the World Health Organization said : “Thereās only one drug right now that we think may have real efficacy. And thatās remdesivir.”
apology, ‘bold’ text, left in error
Hi, Vuk
Maybe, but Remdesivir isn’t going to be available to most of those who are at risk, and certainly won’t be suitable for prophylaxis. I’ve spent a long time reading this whole thread and, although I think Dr Spencer may have gotten rather too excited about the malaria link – which looks much less clear than he states – I would be very happy to take a maintenance dose of chloroquine for a few weeks – if I could get it.
Can’t really understand Nicholas McGinley’s long rants discouraging its use. All that he says about clinical trials is true, of course, but looks to be a complete mismatch to the situation most elderly people will find themselves in. The possible downsides with chloroquine don’t seem to add up to very much at all in the context of what we now face. Nicholas must be some kind of bureaucrat, I guess.
Situation in UK with chloroquine seems confused. Not sure it was even a prescription job, but now seems to have been embargoed by the government. At any rate, seems to have disappeared. Maybe they are keeping for health workers? No information on it at Govt helplines.
I expect to get some Quinine sulphate in a day or two, will read carefully any paperwork attached and anything from authoritative sources on the web and give it a cautious low dose try, increasing intensity gradually if get infected.
“….and anything from authoritative sources on the web…”
Aha! I think I see your problem right there…..
DG no fear, i.e. as in nhs.uk, .gov.uk, etc, my wife works for one of the London’s teaching hospitals.
I’ve been around the web for some time, first worked with Ceefax and then ORACLE at their very start driven by PDP-9 beast bit on Prestel too, all some years before the www came along.
POTUS thinks it’ll fine š
Mothcatcher,
I can assure you I have nothing to do with government or anything related.
And I also did not discourage usage of anything.
You should read more carefully and not read INTO my words.
If I am advising caution or jumping to conclusions, it is from the point of view of keeping an open mind until real data is in hand, and not deciding, like many early commentators had, that chloroquine is a cure and that is that.
Looking at the guidelines gives a perfect example of what I am saying: The worst off patients were given one treatment, and those not as bad off were given something else.
This is exactly the sort of disparity that double blind studies overcomes.
I never said, ever, that anyone should not give or take the stuff.
I did not say a single word that is unwarranted, nor did I ever say…EVER, not to take anything.
I spoke rationally and factually, and expressed the need to be hopeful but cautious and open minded.
I would appreciate if you characterized what I said accurately.
If you think I said what you say I said, quote it right here.
Mothcatcher
I also suggested caution because of a personal bad experience with quinine. However, if I should get COVID-19, and my condition was critical, I would agree to a regimen of quinine, under immediate supervision and monitoring by the physician, whom I would advise about my low tolerance for the drug. I think that all that Nicholas and I are saying is that it is probably premature to assume that we have a solution to the problem at hand and that there are no issues with its widespread use. If you saw President Trump’s ‘presser’ today you would have noted that the head of the FDA has reservations and insists that permission be granted for its off-label use, and that its use follow a protocol that will add to the body of medical knowledge. Quinine, despite having been used for 45 years, is not as benign as aspirin. But, then even aspirin has some known issues, such as internal bleeding and Reyes Syndrome.
David Ho one of the countryās to HIV researchers said he doubted HIV anti virals would work, he placed more confidence in remdesivir.
“….I downloaded all of the data for 234 countries, incidence of total COVID-19 cases (as of 3/17/2020) versus the incidence of malaria in those countries (various sources, kinda messy matching everything up in Excel)….”
It has already been stated that data on infection (and even deaths) is going to be sparse and subject to major errors. For deaths alone in Third World countries it is unlikely that precise testing will be undertaken to confirm Covid-19 as opposed to the many other respiratory tract infections extant.
So I expect the error bars for such an exercise to be huge… and correlation does not prove that the cause is anti-malarial medication…
Chloroquine contraindication: Bradycardia <50 BPM. Also elderly.
I just checked to see if I was still alive at 40 BPM and 71 years.
Thanks to Anthony Watts for keeping this posting as top priority. Some mainstream are beginning to divulge this news which may stop this human induced self imolation.
I agree. Our problem is NOT a proven deadly epidemic.
We have a coronavirus epidemic of the kind that happens in higher latitude countries every winter. This infective agent is novel, and there is inadequate information to determine whether the impact (when Covid-19 becomes established) will be extreme, or indistinguishable from regular winter flu.
It is interesting to note that the disabling impact of a flu-like disease in the human body is not due to the viral reproduction, but rather due to the immune system’s response – which may, in the case of a cytokine storm, “destroy the body in order to save it”.
Similarly, Western societies are in danger of causing greater damage by their reaction to this threat – perhaps even destroying themselves. As below, so above…
In the body, various methods of suppressing the immune system when it overreacts are part of the medical armoury. For Society, papers such as the ones WUWT links to above must provide a similar function – that of allaying the panic and bringing decision-makers back down to earth…..
In I think less than a fortnight, WUWT has gone from total denial that there is a problem to jumping on the latest “miracle cure”. What’s worse, is that politicians, like our own in Scotland were doing the same. First totally ignoring it and then only very late realising they ought to have done something like order ventilators for the thousands of patients who will need them.
Because the big problem in this epidemic, as I have been saying for about 6weeks on various media, is the critical shortage of ICU beds and particularly ventilators. The other huge problem is the complacency of politicians who had more than 6 weeks to prepare and didn’t really start doing anything till last week.
MY ADVICE
For most people the risk is relatively low, however, if you get ill during the “peak” and that peak has been allowed to burn like a wildfire, then no matter your supposed health-care plan, you are extremely unlikely to get much medical help if any. So, whether you like your gov or not do head the warnings to self-isolate, etc.
For information, I have set up a new website for the UK: CV19.uk
If it is any consolation, there are no reports from either China or Italy of patients who have been put on a respirator recovering. They just die more slowly, so it doesn’t make a huge difference. The virus causes your immune system to destroy your pneumonocytes, if it kills enough then you cannot recover.
Source?
KREMLIN SAYS RUSSIA āWOULD LIKE TO SEE CRUDE PRICES HIGHERā
By Dina Khrennikova, Ilya Arkhipov and Olga Tanas on 3/18/2020
https://www.worldoil.com//news/2020/3/18/kremlin-says-russia-would-like-to-see-crude-prices-higher
[excerpt]
āWeāre very closely monitoring the situation on global oil markets, analyzing the situation, trying to make forecasts for the near- and mid-term future,ā Peskov said. āRussia will form its position on any potential new cooperation with OPEC depending on the outcome of the analysisā, he said.
I ran an oil project in the Former Soviet Union that was later sold to the Chinese for US$4.2 billion. Let me translate the above Russian political statement into English:
āVe are losing our a$$es and ve vill do anyzing to get higher oil prizez!!!ā
In short, Russia just blinked. They precipitated this oil price crash by refusing to cooperate with the Saudis, so they knew the exact timing, probably shorted the shares of energy companies in the west, made a fortune, and now want to get their oil revenues back to normal.
This would explain the Diamond Princess Mysteries …. most passengers had malaria med before they got on the ship!
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/16/diamond-princess-mysteries/#comment-2941339
Read Willis Eschenbach article, and my lady suggested this is the most likely explanation why the infection data skewed on the ship.
You must act immediately. It is better to use preparations that are made from plasma. They can be obtained from people who have recovered. Treatment must be as early, as possible at an early stage.
If treatment is already undertaken in severe cases, we lose control over pneumonia.
Note that flu-type virus epidemics appear to be less prevalent in warm countries – possibly because the virions cannot survive the major infective path of resting on surfaces until another host touches them if the surfaces and the air temperature is hot.
These countries have their own endemic diseases – malaria, for example – which thrive in their climates.
If this is the case, noting that one country has endemic Malaria, but no Covid-19 does NOT indicate that Malaria prophylactics are effective against Covid-19, but simply that Covid-19 (and other similar diseases) just do not spread well in these countries….
It’s interesting that the body temperature of pangolins is in the low 90F range and for bats it is variable, very low during resting and especially low during hibernation but can be well over 100F during flight (core temperature).
Part of our immune response is to use fever against viruses. In any case, there is something to warmth to suppress viruses and it was an especially bad idea to eat bats and to keep pangolins and bats together in a market.
Yes, I’m hopeful that the heat, or more likely, direct sunlight is playing a big part in far fewer cases in the tropics. There may be many cases in southern hemisphere, but perhaps it’s the air con in the more wealthy spots, that’s allowing the bug to flourish. What I can’t figure out, is the lack of clarity here. It can’t be too difficult to carry out a simple experiment. 3 sample surfaces. One in direct sunlight, next in 85 degrees and the other in an airconed room. How long does it take to kill the bug in each case? Seems to me, it would be very useful for us to know that.
Nice comic.
It turns out that a liter of tonic water is probably only a fraction of a therapeutic dose. If one had to drink 6 or 10 liters of tonic water a day they might rather have the virus. The placebo effect is real, however, so maybe a teaspoonful would do.
Absolutely great news Anthony. You’re already my hero but this is huge news. It was mentioned on Breitbart but they took it from top story to the basement for some crazy reason. I’ve read 4 papers and the abstract of a fifth and they all corroborate each other look very very real. This doesn’t appear to be a mild success either, these medicines not only prevent you from getting the disease but some are claiming they are an absolute cure.
1 – Note that this is NOT a confirmed cure – it is a reported possibility. How many other reported possibilities turn out to be incorrect in other situations?
2 – NO ONE in the media is interested in ‘good news’ – especially when there is a panic going on. Think about it. Which would you be more likely to read – an item saying that everything is OK, or one saying that you might die?
The media are NOT in the business of providing a balanced view of a situation. They are in the business of getting readers.
Dodgy, I don’t and never have waited for others to figure things out–especially government. The data in this case is something I’ve looked quite deeply into. This sucker is dead.
Both my wife and I are on a 200 mg/day regimen. Both with health considerations, and we’re not going to simply wait for something that MAY be released sometime in the future if the politicians at the CDC and FDA decide that flyover country is worth it. Certainly the small investment is worth the risk.
If I were closer to the Mexican border, we’d be making a run there for our friends. The usual Canadian pharmacies don’t appear to be stocking the product, at least on line.
Up early, with a breakfast of a Vitamin D pill washed down with Tonic Water (Quinine). Good thing I skipped the Gin, because Iām already grumpy.
Here is my complaint:
Iāve been writing since 2002 about the failure of green energy to provide useful (dispatchable) electrical power, due to intermittency and diffusivity.
Since then, tens of trillions of dollars have been squandered by incompetent/corrupt politicians on green energy scams – that are not green and produce little useful energy.
Excess winter deaths in the United Kingdom total up to 50,000 per year, often triple the per capita rates of Canada and the USA, because of needlessly high energy costs and poor housing insulation, etc.
We are now seeing a huge reaction to the Coronavirus scare, and rightly so ā schools closing, sports and cultural events cancelled, restaurants closed, etc.
So how is it that the green energy scam, propelled by the global warming/climate change scam, has been allowed to continue? Is it that 50,000 needless Excess winter Deaths donāt count, but the risk of dying of coronavirus is serious? Maybe itās because everyone of a certain age is at risk from the coronavirus, but only the elderly-and-poor die from energy poverty ā the inability to heat their homes due to excessively high energy costs caused by wind-and-solar-power scams.
Yes Iām grumpy, but with good reason. Deaths are deaths ā it doesnāt matter if you are killed by the coronavirus or by the phony green actions of incompetent and corrupt politicians.
Iām going back to bed and hibernating – turning the electric blanket up to nine ā see you in the Spring.
Regards, Allan
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/17/alarm-about-alarmism/comment-page-1/#comment-2553701
Joe dāAleo and I had written a paper on Excess Winter Mortality based on other evidence when the major Lancet study was published, so we revised our paper to include that excellent study. Our summary reads:
āCold weather kills. Throughout history and in modern times, many more people succumb to cold exposure than to hot weather, as evidenced in a wide range of cold and warm climates.
Evidence is provided from a study of 74 million deaths in thirteen cold and warm countries including Thailand and Brazil, and studies of the United Kingdom, Europe, the USA, Australia and Canada.
Contrary to popular belief, Earth is colder-than-optimum for human survival. A warmer world, such as was experienced during the Roman Warm Period and the Medieval Warm Period, is expected to lower winter deaths and a colder world like the Little Ice Age will increase winter mortality, absent adaptive measures.
These conclusions have been known for many decades, based on national mortality statistics.ā
Cold Weather Kills 20 Times as Many People as Hot Weather September 4, 2015
by Joseph DāAleo and Allan MacRae
https://friendsofsciencecalgary.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/cold-weather-kills-macrae-daleo-4sept2015-final.pdf
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/23/the-evils-of-climate-enthusiasm/#comment-2618246
[excerpts]
The elderly and the poor in the United Kingdom, Germany and other countries are suffering increased winter deaths due to high energy costs. In the UK, this human disaster is called āHeat or Eatā.
The Excess Winter Mortality Rate in Britain is much higher than that in Canada. Canada has a population of about 35 million and the UK about 65 million, but Excess Winter Mortality in Canada is about 5000 to 10,000 per year, and in the UK it is 25,000 to 50,000 per year.
Canada and the UK have genetically similar populations and similar health care systems. Canada tends to be colder but mostly drier than the UK. However, Canada generally has much lower energy costs and better-insulated housing and probably better central heating systems, on average. This suggests that adaptation to winter and low energy costs are significant drivers of lower Winter Mortality rates.
Imagine IF the UK had competent politicians in the past several decades instead of warmist imbeciles. Instead of spending billions on green energy debacles, they could have spent the funds on improving home insulation and central heating, and encouraged fracking of shales to reduce natural gas prices., and a whole lot of grannies and grandpaās would still be alive for their grandchildren.
Cheap, abundant, reliable energy is the lifeblood of society ā it IS that simple.
When politicians fool with energy systems, real people suffer and die.
Regards, Allan
Alan
In contrast to the Italian, French or British the Germany’s mortality rate is very low, perhaps sauerkraut and schnapps for breakfast might do it. š
Hi Vuk,
I read somewhere recently that millions of German households are living without electricity because of unpaid bills. Is this correct? I cannot find the reference.
I believe you are correct, that Excess Winter Deaths in Germany were lower than the UK and many other European countries ā at least in the past ā the following study includes data from 1988-1997, before the German Energiewende lunacy drove up electricity costs to their current high levels. German EWDās may be much higher now.
I believe that German housing is better-built that English housing, much of which reportedly has very poor insulation, drafty windows, etc.
And as you say, it could also be the diet ā schnapps and fish ā high in Vitamin D.
EXCESS WINTER MORTALITY IN EUROPE: A CROSS COUNTRY ANALYSIS IDENTIFYING KEY RISK FACTORS
http://jech.bmj.com/content/57/10/784.full
Table 1 ā Coefficient of seasonal variation in mortality (CSVM) in EU-14 (mean, 1988ā97)
CSVM 95% CI
Austria 0.14 (0.12 to 0.16)
Belgium 0.13 (0.09 to 0.17)
Denmark 0.12 (0.10 to 0.14)
Finland 0.10 (0.07 to 0.13)
France 0.13 (0.11 to 0.15)
Germany 0.11 (0.09 to 0.13)
Greece 0.18 (0.15 to 0.21)
Ireland 0.21 (0.18 to 0.24)
Italy 0.16 (0.14 to 0.18)
Luxembourg 0.12 (0.08 to 0.16)
Netherlands 0.11 (0.09 to 0.13)
Portugal 0.28 (0.25 to 0.31)
Spain 0.21 (0.19 to 0.23)
UK 0.18 (0.16 to 0.20)
Mean 0.16 (0.14 to 0.18)
Alan,
as per May 2019 – 340.000 were affected by power cuts.
Source
Thank you Krishna,
I thought the numbers were higher.
However, even 340,000 could lead to many Excess Winter Deaths.
Regards, Allan
Most of the West Germany Germans are fine with good incomes, the East Germans’ standard of living has greatly improved too. It is nearly 15 million immigrants ‘gastarbeiters’ although not too badly paid many unnecessarily live below official poverty line in monetary terms. Most ‘gastarbeiters’ send significant proportion of their earnings back to their close or extended families in the countries of the origin.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/01/09/hewlett-packard-report-includes-planned-penal-colonies-for-climate-skeptics/#comment-2254514
I’ve taken time to publish a bit more on this subject
https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2020/03/19/zero-risk-options-for-treating-coronavirus-patients/
It would seem that antivirals are our best hope for treatment. Isolation and immune system boosting are what can be done now on a wide scale to avoid succumbing to the disease.
Vaccines testing is going to take months and it will take months to produce them. Certainly some amount of production could be done in parallel but one year out is probably overly optimistic for vaccines to play a role on any mass scale.
The researchers going around the system and studying these antivirals are doing the right thing. I hope that all the promising early studies you reference turn out to be correct.
Good summary. Thanks, William.
I would like to see a summary of the issues concerning different vaccines and the methods of producing vaccines.
There is a class of vaccines and a plant based method of producing vaccines which it appears has been suppressed (by endless testing and no funding) as it is too good.
Big Pharma controls what ever they can to maximum profit.
From your summaryā¦
āEven though the CDC knows these drugs are safe to administer, people right now are having extreme breathing difficulties due to the virus and many will die. The CDC is recommending against the near zero risk opportunity to wait until additional testing is complete.ā
It is a good thing we have a President, who is only in it for us, not the money which explains why he can deal with the Government Swamp of Special interests.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus
Trump announced at a White House press briefing that chloroquine, a drug designed for use in malaria, has been FDA approved and will be made available by prescription “almost immediately.”
Perhaps, but theres also a pretty good correlation between few CV cases and countries with rubbish health services that do retest and report very well. And oddly enough, those countries don’t have a lot of old people and they are busy dying of stuff like malaria, TB, malnutrition and the rest, so CV goes unnoticed.
Good comment.
50 grams of chloroquine phosphate as 200 x 250mg tablets is about 4.40$ in Vietnam.
50 grams of chloroquine phosphate is enough to kill at least a dozen people, probably more.
Hydroxychloroquine has an unusually long elimination half-life of 40ā50 days, and I assume that chloroquine phosphate is probably the same. For malarial prophylaxis, an adult typically takes just 500 mg of chloroquine phosphate weekly.
The dose required for efficacy is not far from the lethal dose. In fact, the prescribing information says that as little as 1 gram (1000 mg) can be fatal to a child:
https://www.drugs.com/pro/aralen.html
The dead guy apparently took about 5 grams, all at once, which is a massive overdose. That’s why he’s dead.
The world’s basic problem is overpopulation . The crowding together of people in megalopolies and the demographics of many countries where 40% of the people are under 35 with no work causes mass migration across national borders. The current minor blip in corona deaths, far from reducing the population ,will cause a massive increase 9 months down the line as many millions are required to stay home from work or even shelter in place with little to do to pass the time . We should prepare for the health care systems to be overwhelmed. A world wide crash program in midwife recruitment and training should be started immediately.
This is a very important notion, however, to be aware that the only humane method of overpopulation is family planning. Those who are obstructing it must be hard-pressed.
“Family planning”: Libspeak for the systematic killing of innocents.
It won’t be too long before the most self absorbed generation (Millennials) use “family planning” to justify wheeling members of the 2nd most self absorbed generation (Boomers) to the elimination centers. I fear a day is coming when adult “eliminations” will outnumber baby abortions.
Some years back, Germans feared todie out !
Source
So, some more will not be so bad š (at least for the pension schemes)
Sigh. Malthusians sure are persistent. There are also completely wrong. Also, they refuse to personally help improve the situation they say is so dire. They’re kind of like warmunists who regularly fly to the coasts to enjoy their oceanfront property.
Restated, some people believe if we can just kill off the population, there will be more stuff to go around. That is anti life and a devastating belief.
Instead, more CO2 will cure most of their worries if only they were rational!
**************
Congrats WUWT! This post mentioned on Mark Levin’s radio show evening of 3-18-20.
**************
Huge deal Mr Watts. Thank you.
They re reporting a 100% cure rate on human studies now!
Yes I heard that live, but he didn’t mention the update …. And the side effects mentioned for Cloroquine on drugs.com are frightening to me. I bought a box of 30 150 mg tablets down here in La Paz mexico – over the counter BTW.
When I saw Dr Roy Spenser’s update, that prompted me to check out my local friendly Farmacorama pharmacist…so I bought a box, but will just hold on to it for a while to see what happens down here in the Baja Mexico. The box only cost $15 OSDs.
I’m a little afraid to start taking them without my doctor’s OK. They just closed all the schools in Mexico.
– JPP
Be careful. There’s only a small margin between the therapeutic dose and the toxic dose, for this drug. You bought more than enough to kill yourself with it.
Cloroquine has a very long typical elimination half-life of 40-50 days. For malarial prophylaxis, it is taken weekly.
There is a tiny glimmer of hope (if confirmed) in the UK today’s total infected numbers (below expected) but too early to call end of exponential rise
http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/UK-COVID-19.gif
Please ignore above comment, there was an error in copying data from a website.
The graph has been corrected, it is the verbiage which is wrong.
My apology.
Comments from other threads:
āCopper Kills Coronavirus. Why Arenāt Our Surfaces Covered in It?
Civilizations have recognized copperās antimicrobial properties for centuries. Itās time to bring the material back.ā
Fast Company, Mar 16 Ā· 5 min read
https://medium.com/fast-company/copper-kills-coronavirus-why-arent-our-surfaces-covered-in-it-b05d1219ebbf
COMMENT:
Dan Conine
Might be more prudent to just issue brass wire screen masks. Canāt hurt except maybe people will have green noses for a while. Iād be curious to the residual effects on Covid19 survival in their mucus. Copper does diffuse into a lot of stuff.
Can we still buy brass wire wool easily?
ANOTHER TIP:
Jerry2012I
Comments14 | + Follow
I carry a sprayer in my pocket. I spray the door handle before opening and after. Then I spray my hands . I touch nothing. I was raised by hospital educated people and it can be done. It is not perfect but close to it. I have not been sick with the flu, a cold, or any other viri in 30 years. I practice good hygiene. I even have bidets in the 3 bathrooms in my home. I use bleach to spray the toilets. It can be done.
Richard Epstein downplays Covid-19 effects and countermeasuresāpodcast
https://reason.com/podcast/richard-epstein-more-probable-than-not-total-number-of-deaths-at-under-50000/?utm_medium=email
We are starting to get widespread confirmation of Chloroquine prophylaxis – see:
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf
If it is any consolation, there are no reports from either China or Italy of patients who have been put on a respirator recovering. They just die more slowly, so it doesn’t make a huge difference. The virus causes your immune system to destroy your pneumonocytes, if it kills enough then you cannot recover.
In Germany they start clinical tests during next days with Chloroquine, gouvernement secured a greater quantity
The French media Le Figaro is happy to post articles doubting Raoult…
If he had been a vociferating teen with blond pigtails, he would have been received with more deference…
US Wuhan virus task force briefing this morning discussed Chloroquine and indicated it will be tested in an accelerated designed study for effectiveness against the virus. Also, blood plasma taken from healthy individuals that have had the Wuhan virus will be evaluated for preventative and therapeutic effects on those that have not yet had the virus or are currently expressing symptoms.
Study of convalescent plasma treatments for SARS showed a positive effect on outcomes. This was one treatment possibility that was mentioned a month ago in the WHO table linked below, along with other treatments, such as remdesivir. If there is one positive, it’s that studies are at least being initiated quickly.
https://www.who.int/blueprint/priority-diseases/key-action/Table_of_therapeutics_Appendix_17022020.pdf?ua=1
Immunoglobulins are a time tested treatment for a wide range of infectious diseases.
It is a part of every tetanus booster, for example.
Immunoglobulins is a protein component of blood plasma.
It is another word for antibodies.
Trump has just basically confirmed that hydroxychloroquine is the one they are (FDA) looking at to quickly resolve this mess. Watch the news ect next 3-4 days will be tested on 1000’s and my bet confirmed. This whole thing will be gone in 4 weeks as predicted buy back into your stock cheers and LOL. Thanks to Anthony for persisting with this post
He said that chloroquine and remdesivir have both been approved for usage in coronavirus patients.
It is unclear if he was saying remdesivir has been approved by the FDA or if he was referring to opening up the compassionate usage guidelines.
Chloroquine of course was already approved for other purposes, and so the safety profile does not need to be determined.
But it would be a mistake to overlook that the qualitative and quantitative results are still pending.
It would also be a mistake to overlook the value of getting treated early in the infection.
Once someone is in organ failure, chloroquine is contraindicated.
Remdesivir is not.
The worst off patients are being given remdesivir and are being cured.
It is a true antiviral, in that it directly interferes with/prevents viral replication.
See here:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-calls-anti-malarial-drug-a-game-changer-for-coronavirus-but-the-fda-says-it-needs-study/ar-BB11qpC2?ocid=msedgntp
Nicholas
My impression from watching the president’s ‘presser’ this morning was that the avenue of use was going to be through the “compassionate usage guidelines.”
You remarked, “Chloroquine … was already approved for other purposes, and so the safety profile does not need to be determined.” Yes and no. Consider Reyes Syndrome. It shows up AFTER the medication (in this case, aspirin) has been used to treat the symptoms of a viral infection. The medical community also needs to be sure that a side-effect of using chloroquine isn’t a life-long problem analogous to Reyes Syndrome. It might be necessary to use chloroquine (assuming it is actually effective) until something better comes along. But, just because it has been used with acceptable side-effects for malaria prevention and arthritis doesn’t mean that there might not be problems associated with using it on the corona virus. Again, a need for caution.
Anxious elders rush in where angels fear to tread.
Good points.
All cause mortality is the true measure of what works and what does not.
Of course long term side effects and adverse events are exactly the sorts of things which can only be revealed by following patients over a long period of time in well designed trials.
And also why even when people are dying (which they always have been from every cause), we still have taken years before approving new medications.
The bad things that occur when long term results in a large number of people over extended intervals of time, make it clear that “What have we got to lose” is a very bad standard for treating patients.
And if something does work, we want to numbers, to provide a baseline for improvement…as we will surely not want to stop looking until 100% of people can be saved, and that will likely require combinations of drugs.
Folks are reporting a 100% cure rate for the COVID-19.Ā Ā I’m told that the FDA just released for public use due to administration pressure.
Breadth of concomitant immune responses prior to patient recovery: a case report of non-severe COVID-19
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0819-2
No other respiratory pathogens were detected. Her management was intravenous fluid rehydration without supplemental oxygenation. No antibiotics, steroids or antiviral agents were administered. Chest radiography demonstrated bi-basal infiltrates at day 5 that cleared on day 10 (Fig. 1b). She was discharged to home isolation on day 11. Her symptoms resolved completely by day 13, and she remained well at day 20, with progressive increases in plasma SARS-CoV-2-binding IgM and IgG antibodies from day 7 until day 20 (Fig. 1c and Extended Data Fig. 1).
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0819-2
Quinine is the main ingredient in number of Quinine salts
from Wikipedia:
Quinine base in various salts
Name Quinine base equivalence
Quinine base 100 mg
Quinine bisulfate 169 mg
Quinine dihydrochloride 122 mg
Quinine gluconate 160 mg
Quinine hydrochloride 111 mg
Quinine sulfate dihydrate [(quinine) 121 mg
These four vitamin supplements are cheap.
Zn, vitamin D, quercetin, and EGCG (from green tea)
Well, also COQ10 is good to have.
These are ionophores to help get Zn inside the cell to disrupt replication of the virus.
Great News !!!!!!
The President is on our side and he has the guts to make things happen.
The President will, if he understands the issue, make things happen.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus
Trump announced at a White House press briefing that chloroquine, a drug designed for use in malaria, has been FDA approved and will be made available by prescription “almost immediately.” He said it was one of a number of antiviral therapies to limit the symptoms of the virus that the administration is trying to get to Americans as quickly as possible.
But has it been approved by the CDC ??
JPP
The CDC does not approve drugs and is not involved in the process.
The agency that does is called the FDA.
Chloroquine is approved by the FDA for several conditions.
The parallels between this conversation and those regarding CO2 caused global warming are striking.
I am counting a lot of people who have thrown the logic they have championed regarding climate science right out the window, and are now borrowing the logic of the warmistas.
In case no one noticed, or wondered…that is why Steven Mosher is laughing at this thread.
In WWII when the bombs were falling and people were being blown up, the Federal authorities did not advise that subway tunnels were not approved bomb shelters, so thjey cannot be used.
The FDA, CDC, etc, have been asleep on this for months.
There are a lot of reasons, but he biggest one is the failure to multitask. That showed up in the development of a test kit. Canada had each Province doing its own developments, plus Ottawa, so the odds of success were multiples higher. Then there is the production of masks, etc.,
With regard to using anti viral drugs, they needed to have asked the medical community to treat suspected cases as a malaria case from the get go. Pakistan advised on its use in December I read. Better safe than sorry.
Now we shut down an economy and will cause untold deaths due to depression, and who knows, a rise in violent crime among desperate people.
The FDA was not prepared. Trump was prepared, witness the ban on travel from Wuhan. After that, all the failures were among the “professionals”. Sad.
The economy will be restarted in two weeks, count on it. In WWII they did not stop the war economy because bombs killed people every day. People had to be fed, housed, clothed, and that required people to work, not cower in basements.
Bureaucracy is yet again proving itself to be inept, slow and ineffective at doing anything, and now they want everyone to fall upon our knees and worship them for simply doing, finally, what they should have done months ago.
Nicholas McGinley: First, I am grateful to you, taking time to post here. Your information and call for caution brought some abuse, you handled it well. After all this reading, I still find you too cautious on quinine and such, but will defer to you because your posts prove you know far more than most, including me, on this subject. Please forgive us grasping for a quick solution, but it’s a hell of a situation (I’m sure you agree) with elements of panic (not seen here). In the end, docs and nurses are surely doing their own “testing” regardless of what we think. They will try it because, as opposed to some brand new chemical mix, they will know the history of chloroquine as safe for vast majority.
Second, I like the idea that Mr. Mosher is laughing at us. If we point out that co19 is a real emergency unlike climate emergency, he will point out that he has never said climate emergency, instead he calls for caution and planning. So I asked him to help plan future electric production. Have you any thoughts there? I know you’re busy.
P.S.- I try to learn from Mr. M. but he earns some of the abuse he gets IMO.
Paul,
Thank you for the kind words.
Sorry it took me so long to find your comment here…these discussions overlap and I do not have it set so I get notices when I get a reply.
In any case, I am not against chloroquine, just against assuming anything based on sketchy data.
We need quantified results, not tens of thousands of anecdotal reports.
In any case, it seems we ought to have some results, at least preliminary ones, in the near future, and trust me when I say…I am as hopeful as anyone that this stuff is a miracle.
Having followed biopharma research for many years, I know that clinical trials often give disappointing results, and also they often give mixed and difficult to parse results.
Very rarely does any drug prove highly effective in an infected individual.
At this point many days have gone by, and people are dying in ever higher numbers in the countries that adopted a chloroquine (or is it hydroxychloroquine…I confess I have not done a good job of paying close attention to the distinction) standard of care for all patients deemed to be seriously at risk, except for those in the worst condition, who are being prioritized to remdesivir.
So people are dying in ever greater number…which could mean it is not working, or it could mean it helps people who are not going to die by dialing down cytokine release syndrome (aka cytokine storm), improving the inflammatory response, and thus helping people while not being strictly speaking an antiviral.
I have posted here and there about clinicaltrials.gov site listings of the malaria drugs from the past two decades against several viruses, and none found any benefit, at all.
There were dozens of such studies using both forms of the drug.
And there was a large animal model study using the SARS virus, which tested a large number of drugs, including several quinine derivatives, one of which was chloroquine…and chloroquine was found to specifically not have antiviral activity in vivo, although it did have the well know anti inflammatory and immunomodulating effects it is used for in lupus and RA patients.
Also how a general anti viral property could have ever been overlooked in drugs that have been used by millions all over the world for many decades, is hard to account for.
So there is reason…ample reason…to be skeptical.
In fact we should always be skeptical about such things…but also hopeful.
There are reasons to be hopeful.
But we need to recall why we have known for a long time that only double blind clinical trials are scientific evidence.
People treating patients are very bad at deciding such things…which is why the double in double blind is a requirement.
We need great info, especially when the stakes are so high.
Because…there are other drugs for inflammation and to treat cytokine storm…we would not want people to be getting an inferior treatment.
Ultimately, I suspect none of the drugs being tested is going to show 100% efficacy.
If remdesivir was that good, the studies would have been unmasked by now, I think.
And if chloroquine was that good…I do not think we would still be seeing hundreds per day dead in countries that have been using it for several weeks now.
Yes, for use in an emergency.
BTW, we don’t need to wait the warmer season, especially because we spend most time indoors. Just crank up AC to increase air temperature and humidity.
This poor man’s means to reduce transmission oft respiratory viruses is now shown to work against #COVID19.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3551767
But the warmunists would never let say that anything gets better with warmer air
Thank you, Mr. Watts, this article, the contents, information, has been verified by the course of events.
And, most important, the word is getting out, I understand President Trump has stated as such.
From today’s Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security Situation Report:
WHO LAUNCHES MULTINATIONAL TRIAL FOR COVID-19 TREATMENTS The WHO announced that it will soon launch a major trial of prospective COVID-19 treatments . The trial, referred to as the SOLIDARITY trial, will assess possible therapies to treat COVID-19 infections across at least 10 countries. Trial countries include Argentina, Bahrain, Canada, France, Iran, Norway, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland, and Thailand. Four trial arms consisting of drugs or combinations of drugs will be tested against a control arm consisting of standard supportive care. The trial arms will consist of remdesivir; a combination of lopinavir and ritonavir; lopinavir, ritonavir, and interferon-beta; and chloroquine. All 4 options have shown some evidence of effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 in either in vitro or animal models. After the announcement, research was published that indicates studies in China that assessed lopinavir-ritonavir treatment combinations did not find strong results in the study population.
Quinine, the drug for malaria and also apparently efficacious against coronavirus, is in Tonic water. Fortunately not many know this Sinai was able to get some in the shop today.
Other good advice.
https://www.facebook.com/521723652/videos/10158289063493653/
There is also anti-malaria Quinine sulphate, tell your doctor you got bad leg calf cramps at night. in USA its known as Qualaquin.
FDA warning: This drug can cause very bad and sometimes life-threatening blood problems. Long-lasting kidney problems have happened in some people who get certain blood problems. This drug is not approved for nighttime leg cramps. If you have questions, talk with the doctor.
A much better way is to keep a jar of pickle relish handy. My local storekeeper told me that last year when I was complaining about leg cramps. She explained that her son’s football team kept a jar of mustard and pickle relish on hand to alleviate leg cramps. I have been using the pickle relish ever since as needed.
I have also concluded that a main reason for my getting the cramps is when I drink coffee to late into the evening. When I cut back to only morning coffee then the cramps stay away. However, I can hobble out of bed to get a teaspoon of relish, and minutes later when I am back in bed the cramps stay gone. The vinegar is the main ingredient I believe.
Quinine sulphate was the “magic bullet” which cured my mother’s leg cramps, when nothing else would. But it wasn’t until she found an elderly doctor to prescribe it that she discovered that fact. Most young doctors will not prescribe it for leg cramps, because the FDA warns against it. If you google-search for why that is the case you’ll find this:
That’s apparently based on papers like this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4347765/
That paper says that quinine is only “modestly effective” for leg cramps. That might be true “on average,” but I know for a fact that in one particular case it was very effective.
That said, because of the risk of side effects, it should be a last resort.
Great Hope!
I searched for CDC Coronavirus Chloroquine, and it pulled up a website with clinical guidance. The weird thing is that Chloroquine is only mentioned in a footnote at the bottom, and in the text that cites the footnote, it only talks about Remdesivir. Apparently the same paper that found both Remdesivir and chloroquine to be effective against Coronavirus was good enough evidence to mention Remdesivir to clinicians but not good enough evidence to mention chloroquine???
The only reason chloroquine appears on the page is because it was in the TITLE of the scientific article.
Really bizarre if you ask me.
Chloroquine is an approved drug and so has readily available supplies and the safety profile is well characterized.
It is not safe for everyone, and the dosage window is tight (the amount that kills is not much more, far less than an order of magnitude, than the dose that cures), but for those in whom it is not contraindicated it can be given.
Remdesivir is showing great promise and has passed several clinical safety trials in previous outbreaks of another illness, it is a broad spectrum antiviral, and has powerful activity against many viruses in humans, in vitro, and in animal studies.
But it has not been approved by the FDA or in any country…yet.
It is being widely used on a compassionate usage basis, and in many clinical trials.
Because of limited supply, it is being reserved for the most critically ill patients.
Those in organ failure, and those with severe pneumonia.
IOW…the ones about to die.
It has been shown to be highly effective in anecdotal reports in compassionate use.
It is currently illegal to report results of clinical trials of remdesivir, and also unethical.
If it is working on 100% of the most severely ill patients, they are not allowed to say.
This was even mentioned specifically in the press conference today.
So you have to read between the lines.
Makes sense…
Recommendations from South Korea, where they had very low death rates.
I would assume if this works, this is also the reason for the Chinese super low numbers.
They could if they wanted to treat at entire small region of the country with the drug.,
http://joannenova.com.au/Treatment Guidelines from South Korea[7]
If patients are young, healthy, and have mild symptoms without underlying conditions, doctors can observe them without antiviral treatment;
If more than 10 days have passed since the onset of the illness and the symptoms are mild, physicians do not have to start an antiviral medication;
However, if patients are old or have underlying conditions with serious symptoms, physicians should consider an antiviral treatment. If they decide to use the antiviral therapy, they should start the administration as soon as possible: ā¦ chloroquine 500mg orally per day.
As chloroquine is not available in Korea, doctors could consider hydroxychloroquine 400mg orally per day (Hydroxychloroquine is an analog of chloroquine used against malaria, autoimmune disorders, etc. It is widely available as well).
The treatment is suitable for 7 ā 10 days, which can be shortened or extended depending on clinical progress. Notably, the guidelines mention other antivirals as further lines of defense, including anti-HIV drugs.
Can’t tell you how angry I am, especially after reading
James Delingpole’s article in Breitbart about this today!
Really, the CDC knew about Chloroquine back in 2005!!!
He was spot on!!!
Maybe try reading about virology from people with the training to know what they are talking about.
What you just said is identical, IDENTICAL, to warmistas who say “Exxon knew about global warming back in the 1970s!”
And your anger has as much basis in fact as that of Greta.
Right. Medical problem sorted!
Now, what do we do about saving face for the establishment bureaucrats, who were just about to get their hand on untold trillions and unprecedented power over their populations…?
“Now, what do we do about saving face for the establishment bureaucrats, who were just about to get their hand on untold trillions and unprecedented power over their populationsā¦?”
Answer: We re-elect Donald Trump. I trust him to rein things in towards freedom and prosperity and the well being of the USA and leader of the free world by example.
If you know anyone who has a 3D or more printers let them know that they are in demand now.
Perry Russom NBC10 Boston
Ā·
2h
Just got off phone with Dr. Peter Slavin, president of Mass General. He is looking for anyone with a 3D printer to help make masks. He says there is a formula online. āI would hope companies across the countryā¦would start making masks later this afternoon.ā
@NBC10Boston
https://mobile.twitter.com/PerryNBCBoston/status/1240690362441560066
I am certain all hospitals could use them.
There is one standard in science: Evidence.
Evidence is not what people want to be, or what is expedient, or fits with one’s worldview best, or conforms with one’s hopes, dreams, desires, or fears.
Pointing out that only evidence can discriminate between objective reality and opinions is not a rant, and is not advocacy of the opposite side of any argument…unless that argument is that some things are just too important to stick to science, and some feelings are too compelling to be allayed by mere logic, and some dangers are just too scary to stick to what we KNOW to be true, rather than what we are AFRAID might be true.
There is not one standard for medical science and another for climate science, at least there should not be.
To the extent there is, it is because some people find it expedient to dispose of the careful adherence to the scientific method and what can be objectively demonstrated to be true.
There is science, and there is everything else.
There is evidence, and there are opinions and beliefs.
There is what we know, and what he hope and feel.
In any case, this is hardly the first issue in which we have seen people abandon the mantle of rationality.
Credibility is like integrity and trust and honesty.
Once squandered, to some degree it is gone forever.
[riiiiight, meanwhile the FDA is moving forward with it. – mod
“There is evidence, and there are opinions and beliefs.
There is what we know, and what he hope and feel”
This is the crux of any good debate. Feelings be damned in my opinion. If and only if we can agree on what is fact, then and only then can a cogent discussion follow.
That said, there is plenty of evidence of many things. The problem arises when we decide who can determine whether or not there is evidence. That is where things get murky. Is it the FDA? Are they pure? Are they the only ones capable of truth and non political viewpoints? Appeals to authority are not what they are cracked up to be.
I try not to argue feelings and morality… but rather in what was said, done, what is vs what someone feels must be. This is in contrast to arguing from use of “opinion articles” which lead to harmful strawman arguments based on others’ opinions and distortions. Get rid of the strawmen!
Citing FDA approval is not an appeal to authority.
An appeal to authority would be something like saying that we know something is true because so and so said it and he is a well known researcher.
The results of clinical trials are published openly.
The deliberations of the FDA are somewhat of a black box at times, and some have said they act capriciously at times.
I do not know about all of that.
I do know they cite their evidence, which is published by the people running the trials.
The protocol for trial is rigorously written and followed assiduously.
The FDA does not oversee trials, that is a separate entity called the DSMB.
https://www.nidcr.nih.gov/research/human-subjects-research/interventional-studies/data-and-safety-monitoring-board-guidelines
If you are not familiar with a typical result of how a clinical trial is reported, I can show you as many as you like.
They do not use language like: The patients that got treatment X showed that X had”ācertain curative effectā with āfairly good efficacyā ā¦ patients treated with chloroquine demonstrated a better drop in fever, improvement of lung CT images, and required a shorter time to recover compared to parallel groups.”
It consists of numbers, scores, percentages, descriptions of selection and exclusion criteria, the exact care that each group got, how it was determined that the comparator group was equivalent.
Such a determination might include measurements of viral load, or various criteria used to assess patients in a critical care setting.
The results are quantified and precisely described.
The number of subjects in each cohort is given, as well as how many might have dropped out, how many in each group died, how long each group of patients were on oxygen, respirators, total time until discharge, follow up assessments of each patient, all cause mortality, and exactly how the status changed over time at various intervals for each group, as determined by an objective and carefully enunciated set of parameters.
The very act of triaging patients to give the worst off one treatment and those who were not that bad another, means that the results of these two groups are not comparable.
If people who were the sickest were separated out at the admitting room door, and the results of the people who were not as bad off and thus got chloroquine were compared to published rates of survival of patients from some other set of data, like we see reported in some of this work, it is meaningless.
Even having the people giving the care deciding and even knowing who got what and then those same people are evaluating the progress of the patients subjectively, invalidates the results.
They are no longer objectively determined.
Anyone who wants can ask and I will give the historical reference cases for why the double blind standard is universally acknowledged as the only way to have a chance of an unbiased result.
Hi Nicholas: I thought your post was very prescient. However, I was tossing out questions that undoubtedly will get asked…, more rhetorical than anything. I did not mean to give the impression that I was taking an emotional stance against the FDA. They are fallible, but their mission is for a very good cause.
I think mostly, my meandering point was that most people do not argue based on concrete facts, instead they hear something they believe is true and argue as if it were true.
By the way, your patience with us is pretty commendable. Thank you!
Here is how a comparative open label study is written up.
Percentages, confidence intervals, sample sizes, adverse events, lost to follow up, percent who achieved sustained virological response, etc:
https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT02607800?recrs=e&rslt=With&cond=Hepatitis+C&map_cntry=US&map_state=US%3AFL&phase=2&draw=2
Thank you Nicholas!
Mod,
I am not sure what you are mocking about what I said, but I am pretty sure you have not read everything I have written carefully.
I want you to find one single thing I said and quote it right here, that is at odds with anything the FDA has said.
I wonder if you are aware of the FDA clarification that it gave after the press conference today (which I watched every word of and applaud), in which they more or less had to contradict the President.
The President is a great leader, and I was supporting him here on this site when most people mocked me for it, long before most people gave him much of a chance.
But he is not the most precise speaker when it comes to details of technical matters, or as it happens, regulatory ones.
He said the FDA had approved two drugs.
He named the two we have been discussing here, as most of us knew he would.
He correctly noted that one has already been approved.
I myself made a point of noting that the drug that is the subject of this thread is approved by the FDA and any doctor can write a prescription for it.
I have been saying for some time that Remdesivir is the most promising candidate for saving lives, all else being equal.
But all else is not equal.
Not even close.
It is currently illegal for anyone involved in the regulatory process or the development or testing of remdesivir to give an opinion of efficacy or how the trials are coming. It is a proprietary drug owned by a publicly traded company.
They are not allowed to say much.
They are not allowed to say what they know, nor is the FDA head.
The FDA moves on applications and approvals.
All that the FDA can do for chloroquine is approve it for an additional usage, but until there are clinical trial results, or it is labelled for that usage by some manufacturer, i wonder what they can in fact do?
That is one reason the FDA was forced to clarify the actual case after the press conference.
This is not mentioned in the Fox News reported you linked to.
I work hard to inform readers here.
I have never gotten a single word of encouragement or support from anyone involved with the site.
I do not care about that…I have my own reasons for what I do and the things I say.
But I have defended this site and never said anything scornful or spiteful to anyone involved with the site.
I think you owe me an apology, but I do not expect one.
I expect more of the same.
But I would ask you, if you think I do not know what I am talking about, or if I have said anything which is factually or technically or scientifically incorrect, to please state so right here, and provide a quote.
I will even say please.
Please show me what I said that has earned your scorn.
Nicholas
You said, “I have never gotten a single word of encouragement or support from anyone involved with the site.” That has changed tonight. I support you. You impress me as being one of the few who knows what he is talking about and is giving useful information and advice. I think that we we are observing is a lot of wishful thinking from people who are scared.
Reminds me of the unknown knowns, the known knowns, the unknown unknowns, the known unknowns, etc.
Nicholas,
Well said.
[mod — from the link you provided: “FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn explained during the press conference it would be allowed under whatās known [as] ācompassionate useā — where doctors can request to use the experimental drug and get permission from the FDA to give to patients. Hahn also said he didn’t want to give “false hope” but said he was hopeful about the treatments.”
Anthony,
You saved lives with this post. Maybe a lot of them. Ive been spamming threads with it for days, contacting conservative authors who have closer contact with the pres. I donāt think the president hears this so quickly without your work.
Roy Spencer as well. The correlations were absolutely convincing. Climate bloggers again!!
Such a huge debt of gratitude for you and what you do.
Please tell me why I do not see what he is talking about whatsoever when I look at the maps next to each other.
I see almost complete overlap:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/world-map.html
https://i.insider.com/58137ff6b28a6477058b5958
Well done Jeff
+10
Thanks for this very informative post.
In France, Prof. Didier Raoult, infectiologist and professor of microbiology (one of the first having tested the Chloroquine effect on SARS-COV-2 and proposed to use it against this virus) is not a quack as some believe. He is a reknowed infectiologist and he’s member of the scientific council of the French public health.
Most French epidemiologists and physicians know those first promising results of Chloroquine and it has been asked that a very quick “official” scientific test was done to validate those promising results, which will indeed be done a priori at European level.
One of the chiefs of SalpĆŖtriĆØre Hospital in Paris told to LCI journalists today – when asked on this subject – that those official tests are to begin very quickly and that the results could be known in 3 weeks from now. The usual duration of such tests is one year of even more, he said, so for once, the health administration is actually accelerating the movement.
He also clarified that until those tests are performed and the results clearly established, the fact that some physicians have spread such partial and not validated information was not a good idea nore in accordance with the usual scientific process.
He joked : now we will lack toilet paper, pasta AND Chloroquine.
Fingers crossed for very quick and positive results.
I get alerts from teh FDA whenever they have news releases.
Today I got this one in the early afternoon:
“The FDA has been working closely with other government agencies and academic centers that are investigating the use of the drug chloroquine, which is already approved for treating malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, to determine whether it can be used to treat patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 to potentially reduce the duration of symptoms, as well as viral shedding, which can help prevent the spread of disease. Studies are underway to determine the efficacy in using chloroquine to treat COVID-19.
āPresident Trumpās aggressive response and bold actions to keep Americans safe from COVID-19 bought us precious time to advance therapeutics and other necessary tools,ā said HHS Secretary Alex Azar. āTodayās actions show that HHS and the United States are leading the world in these efforts. Disseminating information about promising off-label uses of drugs we already have, investigating their effectiveness, and pursuing other therapeutics will help give American healthcare providers the tools they need to save lives. As we have always seen when America has faced a serious threat, American industry, academic institutions and government are coming together to deliver us what we need to win.ā
The FDA wants to assure the American public that the agency continues to work with partners across the U.S. government and regulated industry to expedite the development and availability of critical medical products to prevent and treat this novel virus, including repurposing existing therapies that may help treat patients with COVID-19.
āAs is true for most medical situations, the great American innovators in academia and industry have engaged with us about treatment options. We are extremely encouraged by the interest and promise in the development of the COVID-19-related therapies. We understand and recognize the urgency with which we are all seeking prevention and treatment options for COVID-19. FDA staff are working expeditiously on that frontā said FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn, M.D. āWe also must ensure these products are effective; otherwise we risk treating patients with a product that might not work when they could have pursued other, more appropriate, treatments. At the same time, we will engage with domestic manufacturers to ramp up production of this product to mitigate any potential supply chain pressures. If clinical data suggests this product may be promising in treating COVID-19, we know there will be increased demand for it. We will take all steps to ensure chloroquine remains available for patients who take it to treat severe and life-threatening illnesses such as lupus.ā
While there are no FDA-approved therapeutics or drugs to treat, cure or prevent COVID-19, there are several FDA-approved treatments that may help ease the symptoms from a supportive care perspective.”
This is precisely what I have been saying here, including the part about not waiting to ramp up production.
And this:
“The FDA is working closely with innovators in their work to expedite these efforts, including leveraging scientific information about the virus and trials currently being conducted in other countries such as China, Japan, South Korea and Italy as well as in the U.S.
Quickly after the emergence of this virus, the FDA began working directly with partners and innovators to foster the development of medical countermeasures against COVID-19, and we are continuing to provide regulatory flexibility, advice, guidance, and technical assistance. The FDA continues to work with interested sponsors to help expedite any additional clinical trials for COVID-19 medical countermeasures that may be appropriate. The FDA is able to, and has been, turning around requests very quickly to assist in initiating clinical trials.
For example, last month, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) began a randomized controlled trial for the treatment of COVID-19 patients with the investigational antiviral drug remdesivir. The FDA has been working with the drug sponsor, Gilead Sciences Inc.External Link Disclaimer, to find multiple pathways to both study the drug under the FDAās investigational new drug requirements, and thus collect helpful data about the efficacy of the drug, as well as provide the drug to patients under emergency use. The FDA is committed to continuing to make use of its expanded access program to allow the emergency use of this product for those patients, when appropriate. To date, the agency has already granted about 250 patients access to this product. The data collected from the expanded access program may contribute to the agencyās understanding of the drug, but controlled clinical trials are needed to determine if it safe and effective for the treatment of COVID-19 infection.
The FDAās efforts to facilitate the development of these therapies are squarely focused on ensuring these medical countermeasures meet the agencyās world-respected gold standard, relying on data from adequate and well-controlled trials to most efficiently determine if an experimental treatment can safely and effectively benefit patients.
Innovators are looking at products in a variety of areas, including the assessment of antiviral drugs that might treat the specific virus, as well as host targets, such as interleukin-6 (IL-6) receptor inhibitors that may be helpful in reducing lung inflammation and improving lung function in COVID-19 patients, thereby potentially slowing the progression of severe respiratory symptoms. Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.External Link Disclaimer has announced the initiation of a randomized controlled clinical trial of sarilumab, an antibody to the IL-6 receptor, to assess whether the modification of the inflammatory response by this treatment provides benefit to COVID-19 patients.”
Again, I have made similar comments on many threads over the past several weeks.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-continues-facilitate-development-treatments?utm_campaign=031920_PR_Coronavirus%20%28COVID-19%29%20Update%3A%20Chloroquine&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua
ConUSians
If I were you, even if you feel so far away from any danger, I would have a closer look at what currently happens in Italy, instead of playing scientist with your childish chloroquine thoughts.
In Italy, the situation is so dramatic that in hospitals, the personal inbetween lacks even the time to count the deaths.
At night, convoys with the dead accompanied by the Italian army drive out of some cities because their crematoriums can no longer cope with dead people cremation.
If you do not miss out, CONUS will experience something that is about a thousand times what is happening in Italy.
Simply because you Americans have not been able until today to build a public health system: not ‘America first’ is the rule in your country, but rather ‘Me first’.
*
Just look at this page:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
and sort them according to new cases of infection.
Why according to new cases, and not according to new deaths?
Simply because the new cases more and more fill the hospitals until they move into trash mode, and the personnel itself gets infected.
You don’t believe me? So what!
Best greetings from Germany which was sleeping a bit too long, but by far not as long as you all will continue to do…
J.-P. D.
Thank you for your kind wishes. Best wishes to you as well.
Look at how low the mortality rate is in Germany. Any thoughts as to why considering the number of cases?
“Simply because you Americans have not been able until today to build a public health system: not āAmerica firstā is the rule in your country, but rather āMe firstā.”
And if this doesn’t happen you will no doubt declare America’s system superior, right?
“Simply because you Americans have not been able until today to build a public health system: not āAmerica firstā is the rule in your country, but rather āMe firstā.”
What motivates you to attack Americans? What did we ever do to you? You sound bitter for some reason.
As for “me first”, it looks like even the “Me!Me!Me!” generation of American beachgoers is getting the message and are observing President Trump’s request to not gather in groups larger than 10 people on the beaches during Spring Break (lots of little groups of ten now). That seems to me like they are acting in an unselfish way.
I heard today that an American company that makes Chloroquine is donating 30,000,000 doses of it to the cause.
That doesn’t sound like a selfish American action to me.
I could go on for days like this, recounting the generosity and selflessness of Americans during this Wuhan virus crisis, or during any other crisis you can think of.
You don’t like Americans. That’s ok. That’s not required.
I love Americans, and for very good reasons, which you apparently cannot see, going by your attitude. That’s sad. I think you are missig something: an appreciation for some of your fellow human beings. Stereotyping a whole nation of 330 million (or so) people is a lazy way of thinking, imo, and is certainly not accurate.
+330,000,000
kudos!
And by the “Me!Me!Me!”generation, I should have said “generations” because our beachgoers were made up of all ages. The Me!Me!Me! generation is made up of people of a certain mental outlook (selfishness), not a specific age.
And we should cut the beachgoers a little bit of slack. Four days ago, the guidance was for people to hold down gatherings to 250 people, and then the next day the number was lowered to 50 people and then the next day it was lowered to 10 people, so there’s a chance some of the people on the beach didn’t get the latest memo. They seem to be conforming now.
The company that donated the chloroquine pills was Bayer (not sure if that is an “American” company, it’s so hard to tell anymore:) and the amount they donated was stated as 30 million doses in one report and 3 million in another, so I don’t know what the exact number is but it was an act of generosity no matter the amount or the origin..
Bindidon
Looks like you are a genius.
But you have not figured out why they are dying in Italy.
There is a reason that it has peaked in China and Korea, but I will let you figure it out.
Quatsch!
Sounds like somebody’s upset the USA is doing well in the face of danger.
Don’t believe you? Nein, no one cares what you think in the first place.
Du kannst mich, besserwisser!
Bindidon
When did Germany ban travelers from China? Trump did so at the end of January.
As to the American health system, you seem unaware that many Canadians (who can afford it) abandon the public health care in their country and come to the US because they don’t want to wait two or three years.
You give the impression that you are not objective about your evaluation of the US. For example, the chart that you provide a link to shows total number of new cases, without accounting for population. However, it seems that I have seen the same lack of objectivity with respect to climate issues.
Bindidon
I have read elsewhere that Germany uses a different method of attributing death. Perhaps you are comparing apples and grapefruit with your assumptions about the quality of public health systems.
This is from one month ago, … https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/coronavirus-covid-19-choroquine-data/
Mega dittos to Anthony Watts. WUWT has sparked awareness worldwide. I don’t know about millions, but certainly tens of thousands of lives will be saved because WUWT had the courage and perspicacity to report on the science before anyone else.
And the tenacity. For more than a decade WUWT has been the leading science blog/website in existence, despite financial hardship and unrelenting and hugely unwarranted criticism and attacks.
Now when the need is greatest, WUWT has risen to the task. The whole world owes Anthony Watts an enormous debt of gratitude.
God bless you, Rev.
I hope the people who visit this site understand what WUWT has accomplished. I hope you will be very generous with your donations, and encourage others to contribute as well.
And a personal message to Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Mark Cuban, Sergey Brin, and all you other silicon billionaires:
This is what a global health breakthrough via the Internet looks like. Right here, right now.
Open up your wallets, guys. Make some big donations to Watts Up With That.
Right here, right now. Show your appreciation. Do it anonymously if that floats your boat, but do it today. Make a real difference. You cannot find a better cause to support.
Thank you.
Mike Dubrasich
“If … CONUS will experience … .”
So, J.-P.D., what has not happened in the U.S.A. will happen if we don’t hand over our excellent physician-patient-driven healthcare industry to the government to run.
Resting as it does on 100% speculation and not one piece of evidence, the court in Bindidon v. The United States of America just held for the Defendant.
Re: “Me first.”
Given all the evidence in the daily news of American generosity in the past week and in numerous publications of American generosity over the course of its history (look up such topics as The Marshall Plan and U.S. spending on NATO equipment for starters),
there is a prima facie case for NOT Me First.
Thus, the burden of proof lies with you.
So far, you have produced no evidence at all.
(apologies for being a bit too “legalistic – I am a depressed, very disappointed, lawyer (7 years of college for nothing…) – I cheer myself up for a little while by writing this way)
Finally, being the typical American that I am #(:))
I want to THANK you Germans for giving us Luther … and Bach… and Beethoven … and Einstein … and von Braun (to name only a few – not to mention Christmas trees and the Waltz and German Chocolate Cake š )
It’s about 6AM in Germany. How about if we start over and begin Spring walking arm in arm, smiling… friends…
Bitte?
Your American Ally for Science Truth,
Janice
(please forgive any typos above – typing this on a phone (grrr, do-not-like-typing-on-a-phone!))
“Itās about 6AM in Germany. How about if we start over and begin Spring walking arm in arm, smilingā¦ friendsā¦”
I agree, Janice! Let’s all be friends.
Good to see you posting again, Janice. š
Hi Tom,
Thank you, so much. You made my day start off (when I read your friendly greeting while I made my breakfast earlier this morning) with a smile. š Really needed that. I am facing the sad reality that someone dear to me has, apparently, ghosted me. Someone who I never thought would do that… Heavy heart, these days…
**************
“Speech is civilization itself. The word, even the most contradictory word, preserves contact — it is silence which isolates.”
Thomas Mann
**************
I think, if he knew how isolated I already am, he might relent and speak… and… maybe not…
Anyway! Just wanted you to know how much your kind note meant.
I was also pleased to see you reassure Nicholas M. about the hugely frustrating technical difficulties around here. Arrrgh.
You made excellent points above, btw.
Take care.
Your friend and sister American,
Janice
Anthony Watts and all the “mods”.
This will be my last comment on this site.
I do not mind being insulted or mocked, but your passive aggressive methods of preventing me from replying to people until days later when everyone has moved on is more than I can stand.
The two reasons I am bothering to say anything are, firstly, so I will not be tempted to reconsider, since I really have enjoyed commenting here and I thought at least some people liked to hear at least a few things I have said from time to time, and secondly, because I am sure there are numerous individuals whose day I can make a little happier knowing I will not be around to call them out on their BS.
I wonder how many days will go by before this or any of the many comments you have blocked will be posted, if ever?
Nicholas
I don’t think that your comments are being blocked or even delayed anymore than anyone else. It is a recent peculiarity of the blog that comments are slow to be posted. It seems that is because most go into moderation, and the volunteer moderators are probably overwhelmed with the number of comments.
the delay happens to all of us.
Yes, that is what’s happening. You will get an email notification with posts, that may not show up online yet. Moderators are doing the best that they can. Hey, MUCH better than WebEx!!!
It’s the comment software, Nicholas. I’m posting this message at 7:27am, but there is about a 95 percent chance that my post will not appear on WUWT until about 8:04 am.
If one of your posts doesn’t show up, wait until the top of the hour and then refresh your page and it should be there. If it takes more that a couple of hours to show, then there is probably some other reason for the delay like going into moderation.
The Mods are apparently tweaking the comment software possibly as a prelude to installing new comment software so we are seeing some strange behavior at WUWT. One thing that is happening with me is the standard message is appearing at the bottom of the page requesting that I click and allow cookies to be set by the site, but the message comes and goes so fast I don’t have time to click on it. Apparently, it doesn’t affect the operation of the website for me as I just carry on as usual.
In other words, Niclolas, I don’t think anyone is picking on you and I don’t think you should go away over that misconception.
A well-written parting promise, but one I’d appreciate you reneging on.
For years, I’ve only read the articles here, never the discussions, but branched out after Rud Istvan’s initial post on the Wuhan virus. Think there are somewhere around a dozen posters, maybe a few less, that give good value for the time of reading their posts on this subject, and you’ve been consistently near the top.
Take care.
Guess I should read all the way down. Mods, I don’t think he should have got the “riiiiiight” comment from you. Yes, he seems unduly cautious about a long-term mostly safe substance, but he brought alot of good info and insight, too. He was consistently earnest and did not deserve that tone. My 2 cents.
Won’t forget to thank Mr. Watts, don’t know where else we’d get this level of education, including McGinley’s posts.
I don’t think that chloroquinine is used that much any more. the side effects can be nasty and people in malaria countries don’t take anti-malaria medicine on a continuous basis as it will do more damage than the malaria does.
I took it decades ago in a malaria zone. I wouldn’t take it again.
“I donāt think that chloroquinine is used that much any more.”
According to a doctor on tv this morning, there are a *lot* of doctors in the U.S. and around the world who are using this drug on their Wuhan virus patients.
Although the FDA has not opened the door officially to use it , it is being authorized through the “compassionate use” rule and doctors are using it.
In the next couple of weeks we should be seeing a lot of stories about how this drug is working in patients. Fingers crossed!
for malaria, the link is related to countries that have malaria zones. so if that isn’t accurate what else isn’t accurate?
what went wrong
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/benking/coronavirus-covid-19-testing-errors-cdc
Told you guys.
Now, what is STILL going wrong?
In Korea our positive rate is .05%
Korea tests like ******. contact trace and test.
WHY? because a majority of the spread comes from people who dont have symptoms. Same in China
todate we have traced 80% of infections. Trace, find contacts, test more people
USA still requires symptoms to test, so your positive rate is something like 15%
here is a hint.
Tests cost less than shutting your economy down
or sheltering in place.
talk later I’m going out to enjoy a nice restaurant
[Language, Mosh. Mod]
This might be good news.
We need more than one piece of good news to defeat Corvid-19.
A method of directly producing antibodies.
No vaccine. A method that directly produces antibodies.
The US military medical research institute has been working with private industry to develop antibodies that could be direct injected into a person to get an response in 20 minutes.
If it worked and could be mass produced, it could remove our fear of getting Corvid-19.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-jacob-glanville-antibody-neutralize-coronavirus
The completed drug is going to go to the USAMRIID [United States Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases]. So that’s the U.S. military and they’re gonna be testing it for its ability to neutralize the virus.
“At the same time, that drug was going to go to Charles River Laboratories, which is a international contract research group, which is going to test the safety of that drug,” Glanville said. “Both of those pieces of information come together so that we can produce batches, go through some red tape, and then do the first human studies that we’ll do on 200 to 600 people in the summer, probably in July.”
Thanks for that information, William.
Introduced antibodies, both natural and engineered, look like a good avenue of attack against this virus.
Dr Spencer: Could the difference between malaria and non-malaria infections be due to the airborne transmission of covid-19 and mosquito transmission of malaria?
Hannity just used this map on his show. Hope WUWT or Dr. Spencer get use fees.
I think I am going to tell my doctor that the family and I are going to travel for a few months to a malaria based country and see if I can get a prescription for that drug.
I bet there is a scramble on for this drug right now. Happily, it is cheap and easily produced so supply should not be a big problem.
Roy Spencer remarked, “The map says it all: COVID-19 is where Malaria is not.”
Since the people living in the countries where malaria is prevalent often cannot afford to take quinine prophylactically, and long-term use can have serious consequences, I see the maps as suggesting that the actual correlation is with the climate and not with chloroquine. The inferred correlation with chloroquine appears to be spurious.
Roy
Malaria got its name from the Italians — meaning bad (swamp) air. Malaria was once endemic throughout much of the northern hemisphere. It was mosquito eradication programs in the developed countries that eliminated malaria.
To sort out the confounding influences, I think that one should correlate the per capita use of chloroquine for each country with the prevalence of COVID-19, not with the presence or absence of malaria.
@ Nicholas McGinley
I have been following your posts right through and agree on almost every point you make. Research the heavy side of viruses and attempts to develop vaccinations or blanket cures. They all say the same thing. Development for a new virus takes months, usually years.
For those who want to delve into deep microbiology of Covid-19 buy the latest Economist magazine. It does cover some subjects very well. Ignore the climate change BS
I will be taking no precautions. My conclusion from extensive research is that unless the virus dies a rapid death we will all be exposed sooner or later. It may as well be sooner. If medical staff are getting infected with all their knowledge and protective gear we are piddling against the wind to think we can stay clear.
I got my seasonal flu vaccination yesterday compliments of the northern hemisphere. They characterise the variety that you up north were exposed to in your current winter. The vaccine is formulated then it is sent down south. We always come second. It is us that will be walloped in about 2 months time. When My sniffle starts it may well be Covid-19 or a stupid little cold. If it is Covid-19 I have a 90% chance of getting through I recon. I am not expecting a cure. I have had worse odds in life. A good life its been too.
Thank you WUWT with continuing this topic. You are my first port of call each morning. It is definitely the most fascinating global situation I have experienced throughout my life. I agree with others. We have overpopulated the planet. We cannot rule nature entirely. Thank the gods
Cheers
M
Michael Carter: There may be other things you can do. Here’s a pretty interesting article about the antimicrobial/antiviral effects of copper:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xgqkyw/copper-destroys-viruses-and-bacteria-why-isnt-it-everywhere?utm_source=pocket-newtab
When Covid-19 causes severe pneumonia in people over 60, only prayer remains.
…and medicine….
I am very sorry but only prayer.
A big thank you to this website; a beacon of common sense and positive thinking.
This article in today’s Guardian explains a great deal about why the Covid 19 numbers out of Italy have spooked Europe but shows the world a clear path out of this entirely avoidable shambles:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/eradicated-coronavirus-mass-testing-covid-19-italy-vo
The Italian numbers have been skewed by mainly testing those with symptoms, whereas most infected, 70% or more, have no symptoms.
Lesson: Everyone should be tested.
Conclusion: The Italian numbers, and all other numbers, almost certainly inflate, by a significant order of magnitude, the risk of Covid 19 to public health.
The way forward:
‘In the UK, authorities could still identify and isolate clusters, and test everyone who has come into contact with those infected.’
‘…. eradicate the virus through extensive testing of both symptomatic individuals and all of their social contacts ā including relatives, friends and neighbours. In this way, we catch out the disease before it has the chance to spread ā and, most importantly, before the carrier has the chance to unwittingly pass it on to other people.’
So, hopefully, the entire world can join the United States in a big party on 04 July.
Your very good health!
I have read about 2 different ways in which chloroquine May work.
– reduces change of virus entering cell via ACE2
– gets more zinc in the cell which stops replication
Regarding ACE2, I have read the virus may have other ways to enter the cell via other receptors. Iām not sure if this actually happens or is just a theory, or if virus entering cell with other receptors is more efficient for it vs ACE2.
Some articles say parts of virus genome suggests it can enter cell in other ways.
One thing is we donāt want patients taking chloroquine unless they are under doctor supervision and are isolated until virus clears body. Otherwise a patient might stop taking chloroquine when they feel better but still have virus. The reason is we do not want the virus to mutate in the body to a new form that gets around the chloroquine and then the drug becomes ineffective for this new strain and the new strain spreads.
Meant āreduce chance of virus enteringā
Does the coronavirus exist?
https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/does-2019-coronavirus-exist
In other news close to me multiple gas stations selling gas for $1.49 / gallon.
One gas station in USA was selling for 99 cents / gallon. Though this could be marketing ploy to get in the news.
I got today’s data from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ and sorted it by “Cases per million population” descending.
The top 10, in order, were: San Marino, Faeroe Islands, Vatican City, Iceland, Andorra, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Italy, Switzerland, Spain. The top seven are all small countries. (BTW, San Marino is an enclave within Italy.) So, small countries tend to report more cases per head than large ones? Seems a bit odd. Are small countries better at counting cases than large ones? Or does the virus spread more easily within a smaller culture?
Adding a column for deaths per million population, sorting by that, and discounting countries which have only reported 1 death, the top 10 are now: San Marino, Italy, Spain, Iran, Luxembourg, France, Switzerland, Netherlands, China, UK. That gives some idea of the geographical spread. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Chinese and Iranian deaths have been under-reported.
If I just sort by deaths per case, and again exclude those with only 1 death, the top 10 are: Ukraine, Algeria, San Marino, Indonesia, Italy, Philippines, Iran, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Spain. I don’t think that tells us much right now, except for calling into question the theory that the virus can’t survive in hot weather – three of those countries are tropical. When the whole thing is over, however, this metric may give us some interesting comparisons between the efficacy of health systems in different parts of the world.
There are all kinds of interesting questions. There are problems with small data sets and this would seem to apply to small countries. Remember that a single nursing home in Washington state dominated and skewed the U.S. statistics for some time. Even today, I think the intercept in the trend line of deaths vs cases in the U.S. is at least party due to that outbreak.
With regard to virus survival in hot weather, keep in mind the effect of travel – i.e., a person can pick up the virus in one country and carry it to another. We reasonably know where the Wuhan virus originated. It stands to reason that conditions favorable to its environmental survival existed in Wuhan at the time of the outbreak and animals are carriers.
There were direct flights from Wuhan to several airports in the U.S., Canada, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Indonesia, South Korea, Thailand and several other localities, especially cities within China (where there are also many train connections) with either hotter, colder or similar weather prevailing in Wuhan at the time. It appears that there are preferred range of weather conditions for survival of the virus based on community transmission from import. There is at least one paper from China that discusses this.
Cutting off the transport of the virus is the key to ending propagation. Part of this would seem to be creating conditions that are unfavorable to its survival within the community, cleaning, adjusting temperature, humidity, etc. More research is needed of course.
Your question about virus spread in a smaller culture is interesting. Once it’s there it probably does spread if there is a lot of social interaction and that culture is especially susceptible to infection. I imagine that a lot of praying is going on in Vatican City.
I would like to see the rate of virus spread for hotter climates vs colder climates.
In Texas it appears rate of spread is not as fast, but I donāt have daily numbers by state to say this for sure.
I have been watching Thailandās cases because they have lots of Chinese tourism and hot climate. The rate is not too high but they recently got another 60 cases of which 42 tied to large people gatherings.
In the UK there are two malaria drugs Chloroquine (prescription, mentioned by president Trump) and Qualaquin (available without prescription), both have side effects, the most serious are:
Chloroquine – Anxiety (attempts at killing oneself)’
Qualaquin – Anxiety (behaviour change, similar to drunkenness)
If need be, I’ll rather be drunk than suicidal.
š
Chloroquine Side Effects
https://www.drugs.com/sfx/chloroquine-side-effects.html
Qualaquin Side Effects
https://www.drugs.com/sfx/qualaquin-side-effects.html
Whatever you do, don’t take chloroquine prior to a first date.
If you check the side effects for Aspirin on drugs.com you wouldn’t take them either. At the top of the list of side effects they say that there is no data on the frequency of the side effects.
“…So, small countries tend to report more cases per head than large ones? Seems a bit odd. Are small countries better at counting cases than large ones….”
Any measure ‘per capita’ is skewed by the small population number that you divide by. Look at Nobel prizes per head of population. The top two countries are the Faroe islands and St Lucia. That does NOT mean that these countries are supremely intelligent. It just means that they are so small that a random one Nobel laureate living there (or TWO in the case of St Lucia!) catapults the country to the top of the list….
Well yes, the Faeroe Islands did produce a Nobel prizewinner. But I don’t think that having a small sample size will skew a per capita measure towards the right – i.e. above the average of a much larger sample (from the same population). Surely, a small sample size makes the uncertainty bigger – you’re much more likely to get an outlier like the one you quoted. But it doesn’t increase the expected value.
There have been 80 confirmed cases so far in the Faeroes; no-one has died from it there. If you took a similar sample size from, say, Denmark (to which the islanders are closely culturally related), then on the current numbers you’ d expect about 10 cases. Their new infections per day appear to be dropping, even though the number tested is going up each day; so hopefully they’re almost through.
The Chief Medical Officer of the Faeroes said on Tuesday (according to Wikipedia) that at this point, most people have been infected within the Faroe Islands. That suggests that the virus spread unusually fast in an isolated community. That could also be what happened in Iceland, and might also be why Andorra and Liechtenstein have more cases per population than the surrounding countries. What’s going on in San Marino is anyone’s guess, but that’s a place I wouldn’t want to be right now.
Why not use the plasma of those who have recovered, if this could be the only rescue?
If you do not manage to develop antibodies, that no drug will help.
I cordially greet.
Ren: You attack it from both sides. Weaken the ability (slow down) of the virus, to give your immune system help.
Dr. Spencer,
Where did you source your data from? The WHO has this site that appears to contradict it …
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd
Thanks,
D. Holliday
To those who have pointed out that Indonesia and Malaysia have both high incidence of Malaria and Covid-19 and that fact weakens Dr Spencer’s theory – Malaria in Indonesia and Malaysia has become resistant to Chlrorquine. Therefore Chloroquine would no longer be used as a prophylactic in those areas. In my opinion the fact that Indonesia and Malaysia have both high incidence of Malaria and Covid-19 actually further supports Dr Spencer’s theory that the prophylactic user of Chloroquine for Malaria is acting as a prophylactic for Covid-19,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12114045
I was thinking that maybe guys that had Malaria might be immune to Covid-19.
@#%! – another theory went down the drain. š
In summary, we have found that patients with COVID-19 are prone to digestive symptoms and nearly half report a digestive symptom as their chief complaint. In rare instances, patient can even present with digestive symptoms in the absence of respiratory
symptoms.
Compared to COVID-19 patients without digestive symptoms, those with digestive symptoms have a longer time from onset to admission and a worse clinical outcome.
These results obligate additional research evaluating the prevalence, incidence, predictors, and outcomes of digestive symptoms in this still emerging pandemic.
https://journals.lww.com/ajg/Pages/default.aspx
Urgent Request!
I have just tried several of Anthony’s links to the studies above, and find that Google has just barred most of them. Has anyone else experienced this?
yes all links to doc.google.com.
only one runs, but it’s noct a helpfull one
Oof, yes. Click on the “new medical studies” link at the very top of the article. The error message is:
“We’re sorry. You can’t access this item because it is in violation of our Terms of Service.
Find out more about this topic at the Google Drive Help Centre.”
Other links in the article seem to work OK. Might be a technical glitch. Or perhaps an EU GDPR problem?
Here is a look at the results of a group of anti-viral drugs tested against Covid-19, … https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub?fbclid=IwAR3HXmAaRvsKQwtD4mT0W6NU4bTJvZnR6f3KLRcsWkXSOGn33dbdR1KyS0Q
Link does not work.
Google says it cannot be viewed.
And here is the more important update from one of the leading virologists in Germany on the subject: it helps if you know German, but the short version is that the study is unscientific BS and no conclusions can be drawn from it:
https://www.focus.de/gesundheit/news/wir-sind-kein-stueck-schlauer-top-virologe-drosten-entkraeftet-hoffnungsvolle-studie-zu-moeglichem-corona-heilmittel_id_11791311.html
Pretty much just what I have been saying.
Picked up some Sapphire Gin and lot soft tonic water (with quinine). Starting a new tradition based on the old British tradition- gin and tonic in the afternoon. Might be prophylactic, probably not harmful. Cheers mates!
taking chloroquine is not without risks – be warned
chloroquine is a safe drug if taken as directed but an overdose of 2x is deadly! It also has some pretty dire side effects:
Chloroquine
Side-effects
Rare or very rare
Cardiomyopathy; hallucination; hepatitis
Frequency not known
Abdominal pain; agranulocytosis; alopecia; anxiety; atrioventricular block; bone marrow disorders; confusion; corneal deposits; depression; diarrhoea; eye disorders; gastrointestinal disorder; headache; hearing impairment; hypoglycaemia; hypotension; insomnia; interstitial lung disease; movement disorders; myopathy; nausea; neuromyopathy; neutropenia; personality change; photosensitivity reaction; psychotic disorder; QT interval prolongation; seizure; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs); skin reactions; thrombocytopenia; tinnitus; tongue protrusion; vision disorders; vomiting
Side-effects, further information
Side-effects which occur at doses used in the prophylaxis or treatment of malaria are generally not serious.
Overdose
Chloroquine is very toxic in overdosage; overdosage is extremely hazardous and difficult to treat. Urgent advice from the National Poisons Information Service is essential. Life-threatening features include arrhythmias (which can have a very rapid onset) and convulsions (which can be intractable).
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/interaction/chloroquine-2.html
The antimalarial drug chloroquine is the most severe and frequent cause of poisoning in Africaā,2 and the Far East.3 The mortality rate in the published studies ranges between 10 and 30% and is amongst the highest in clinical toxi- c~logy.~ The high mortality rate in chloroquine poisoning is related to close dose-dependent toxicity and to rapid onset of severe cardiac symptoms.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2044.1990.tb14629.x
And Arizona man is dead and his wife is in critical condition after taking chloroquine because they were afraid of Corona virus.
What is it that I am reading that CoQ10 helps in the prevention of catching the Covid virus, is it true or false?
Malaria had been eradicated from India for a decade and staged a comeback during year 1971. Since 1971, several avtars of fever afflicted India. Viral fever, Dengue fever, Chikungunya – all began as killers. With time we learnt how to coexist with those diseases. Corona Virus showed up during recent months. That engulfed the entire World. The world would soon learn how to coexist with Corona Virus.
Since year 1971, Chloroquine has been my default drug in fever cases. Viral fever, Dengue fever, Chikungunya – all political entities responded to Chloroquine. By simple mathemathics, there can be two possibilities :-
1. New avtars of fever during consecutive years were new variants of malaria.
2. Chloroquine known as antimalarial, may be nonspecific fever drug, effective also against Viral fever, Dengue fever, Chikungunya, and now Corona Virus.
Chloroquine is a harmless drug with single dose required in endemic population and 5 tablet (double strength) course required elsewhere.
Immunity boosters in routine and Chloroquine at first fever sign may be a magic mantra to make the World Corona free. Atovaquone-proguanil should also be tried in place of Chloroquine.
Dr K Chaudhry http://immunity.indianmedical.net
FIRST Author of Jaypee Brothers
I am just gonna leave this here:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fearing-coronavirus-arizona-man-dies-after-taking-a-form-of-chloroquine-used-in-aquariums/ar-BB11BDzF?ocid=msedgntp
This is the same kinda idiot who would drink rubbing alcohol when out of vodka.
I do not know what kind of idiot he is.
Except that now he is a dead idiot.
Chloroquine phosphate is the same form that the Belgium paper recommends.
Well, he had to take it out of the box, which has a big red banner which says Not For Human Consumption, front and back, also has that written across the back of the plastic and foil card the tablets are in. I know, I have used it in the past maintaining aquariums for businesses and individuals in a former life. Perhaps today there are no warnings, been awhile since I did the aquarium cabana boy routine.
I saw at least one article that has the box with the warning label you mention.
It is for sure that it was extremely boneheaded.
But when people have no medical knowledge, and are more afraid than they are cautious…this is a predictable outcome for at least some number of people.
Panic and fear lead to irrational decision making.
IMO, anyone who talks about, or writes about these drugs, has a responsibility to prominently post warnings of the toxic nature of these drugs.
Brazil has been freed up Today no more madness. Viva Bolsonaro this is just a common severe flu. Positive result in Brazil with cloroquine just coming in. If there was no internet NO ONE would have differentiated this from normal flu
Hello,
I looked for studies who could help against the coronavirus SARS-COV-2 infection, and I think I might have noticed something promising, so Iām writing here my proposal for prevention of Covid-19 and possibly a treatment, to be tested:
Zinc Ascorbate proposed against Covid-19
Author: Valentino Cingolani
23/03/2020, Recanati, Italy
Version 0.3
Given that:
1. the combination of zinc ions and zinc ionophores at low concentrations inhibit the replication of SARS-COV in cell culture, via inhibition of elongation of RNA-dependent RNA polymerase and reduction of RNA template binding [1];
2. in zinc ascorbate, ascorbic acid enhances zinc absorption into cells [2];
Here I propose that zinc ascorbate supplementation could be effective in the prevention and cure of SARS-COV-2 infection and Covid-19 disease.
Zinc ascorbate supplementation is already used in diabetes and glycemic control in humans.
It is proposed that zinc ascorbate should be tested both in-vitro and in-vivo against SARS-COV-2.
Also, zinc ascorbate supplementation, given the high feasibility of a clinical trial and the potential immense benefit to people, should be tested as soon as possible, for the possibility of prevention and cure of Covid-19 disease.
[1] Zn2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture ā Aartjan J. W. te Velthuis 2011, PLoS Pathog https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176
[2] Zinc-chelated Vitamin C Stimulates Adipogenesis of 3T3-L1 Cells ā C. Ghosh 2013, Asian-Australas J Anim Sci https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4093222/
My proposal is available at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x0DVGz303NiFmjy8hwDoA6SGht1NNAIG/view
Thank you all for any comments and if you could help in setting up a trial.
Valentino Cingolani
Why the parenthetical reference to phosphate? I don’t see P in the chemical formula
In the interests of balance, it is worth noting the Daily Mail “exclusive” investigation that claims that Rigano is a fraud:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8143845/Malaria-cure-coronavirus-promoter-cryptocurrency-hustler-fake-Stanford-University-claim.html
The article fails to mention the full panoply of chloroquine studies, so it may be as much motivated by anit-Trumpism as anything.
Incredible!
We shall know much more in the future, but this is truly astounding.
Here is some more regarding the apparent huckster who seems to be at the center of at least part of this sensationalism.
As you say, it could be anti Trumpism…but this Rigano guy appears to have misrepresented himself at the very least.
He does not correct when he is referred to as a doctor…he is not.
He does not correct when referred to as an advisor to Stanford U…he is not, apparently. Stanford seems to have denied it and disavowed him.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/donald-trumps-dangerous-messaging-about-a-possible-coronavirus-treatment
https://youtu.be/tcHeVqoLVWI
BTW…Didier Raoult seems to be a master of self promotion as well.
I was just looking at his impressive Wikipedia bio…then noticed that all of the many dozens of references used are all papers Raoult himself authored or co-authored.
Many of the claims made are astounding to say the least.
Maybe…too astounding?
IDK.
I am very curious to see how this all shakes out.
More news from France:
“French Expert: Second Study Shows Malaria Drug Helps Fight Coronavirus”
https://www.breitbart.com/news/french-expert-says-second-study-shows-malaria-drug-helps-fight-coronavirus/
But critics point out the same problems as many noted with the first set of “studies”:
“Dr Raoult, whose theory has been taken up by US President Donald Trump, said his new study of 80 patients showed that four out of five of those treated with the drug had āfavourableā outcomes.
He had earlier reported that after treating 24 patients for six days with hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic azithromycin, the virus disappeared in all but a quarter of them.
The research has not yet been peer reviewed nor formally published in a medical journal.”
“Raoultās critics have pointed to problems with the protocol of his testing and worrying side effects of the drug.
Fakemed, a group of scientists against fake news in health, lambasted the 68-year-old professor.
After Raoult released his latest findings on the internet over the weekend, Professor Francois Balloux of University College, London, tried to dampen talk that the drug could be a silver bullet.
āNo, (this is) not āhugeā Iām afraid,ā he said on Twitter.
āThis is an observational study (i.e. not controlled) following 80 patients with fairly mild symptoms. The majority of patients recover form #COVID19 infection, with or without #Hchloroquine and #Azithromycin treatment.ā
Statistician Tim Morris of the universityās clinical trials unit was even more scathing.
āIf hydroxychloroquine turns out to be useful,ā he tweeted, āitās a shame that this group will be praised as heroes and prophets instead of held to account for the misinformation and self-promotion theyāve been churning out at a critical time.ā
Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, which is often sold as Plaquenil, have been hailed as a potential āgamechangersā by Trump, but US government experts are as yet unconvinced, with Dr Anthony Fauci, the head of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, calling the results so far āanecdotalā.”
“Dr Philippe Gautret, who was part of the team behind Raoultās latest findings, admitted that they only used the combination of drugs on āpatients who had not been showing signs of being seriously ill after admissionā to the hospital.
āOur strategy was precisely to treat them at that stage to stop the disease getting to a more serious stage,ā he told AFP.
āA doctor can and must think like a doctor and not like a methodological researcher,ā Raoult wrote in an article for the French Le Monde daily, defending his methods.
According to his latest study, 65 of the 80 patients treated improved and were discharged from hospital in an average of less than five days. One patient aged 74 was still in intensive care and another aged 86 died.
But his critics say such results were fairly typical of the virus.
Two Chinese studies have shown that ā10 days after the start of symptoms, 90 percent of people who have a moderate form (of the disease) have a controlled viral load,ā epidemiologist Dominique Costagliola, of the French health research institute Inserm, told AFP.
The fact that they got these results using hydroxychloroquine ādoes not make the case for its effect,ā she said.”