By Ronald Stein
Founder and Ambassador for Energy & Infrastructure of PTS Advance, headquartered in Irvine, California
We’re constantly being bombarded with the EV movement, but Americans must have a multitude of subconscious reasons for not buying into one of the major movements to save the world from itself as they are showing their lack of enthusiasm by avoiding the dealerships.
In a recent Los Angeles Times article, citing Edmunds data, The number of battery-electric models available more than doubled from 2018 to 2019, but EV sales budged in the wrong direction. In response to the major efforts by manufacturers, the horrific EV sales data shows that only 325,000 electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles were sold in the U.S. in 2019, down from 349,000 in 2018.
Those dismal numbers represent an embarrassing dismal 2% of the 17 million vehicles of all types sold in the United States in 2019. Are EV carmakers driving off a cliff?”
California remains the primary buyer of EV’s while the rest of America has shown little interest in the incentives and the increasing choices of models.
Let’s look at several of the factors that may be contributing to this lack of enthusiasm, that may be in the subconscious of the prospective EV buyers:
Agreed, there would be no fuel costs and no gas taxes to be paid with an EV owner, BUT, and that’s a big BUT. Beware of the “free” gift! Once fossil fuel cars are off the road, the only ones on the roads will be EV’s. You can easily surmise that it’s going to be the EV owners picking up the costs to maintain the highway infrastructures, probably through some form of vehicle mileage tax (VMT), to let the “users” pay for the roads.
EV’s are hyped as being pollution free. Well, not necessarily so. Its true EV’s have no tailpipes, but the tailpipes are located at the power plants generating the electricity to charge the cars batteries, and at the refineries that provide all the derivatives from petroleum that make all the parts of the EV’s.
Range and charging anxieties remain a constant sub thought for that next trip. To fully charge an EV, even at fast-charging stations, it takes anywhere from 30 minutes to 8 hours depending on how much of a charge (empty to full or topping off) your vehicle needs.
Hybrid and electric car owners are a scholarly bunch; over 70 percent of respondents have a four-year college or post-graduate degree, which may explain that the average household income of electric vehicle (EV) purchasers is upwards of $200,000. If you’re not in that higher educated echelon and the high-income range of society, there may not be an appetite for an EV.
The lack of mining standards and environmental regulations to extract the exotic metals used in EV batteries exposes local ecosystems to destruction when the wastewater and other unusable ores are let loose onto the environments. The workers have no choice but to live in horrific conditions because their wages are so infinitesimally small, it causes me the take a step back and examine my moral obligations to humanity. Green technology cannot thrive off human rights abuses.
There are numerous documentaries about the atrocities the workers are put through in the cobalt mines, i.e. actually digging the mines by hand along with the horrendous living conditions. Amnesty International has documented children and adults mining cobalt in narrow man-made tunnels along with the exposure to the dangerous gases emitted during the procurement of these rare minerals.
Governments and manufacturers are “blowing off” the transparency of the child labor atrocities and mining irregularities of where and how those exotic metals are being mined in Africa, China, Argentina, Bolivia and Chile to support the EV battery supply chain. The first transparency law was in California, the largest buyer of EV’s in the country, starting with The California Transparency in Supply Chains Act SB657 and followed by the U.S. with H.R.4842 – Business Supply Chain Transparency on Trafficking and Slavery Act of 2014.
The richest most powerful companies in the world, and now the Governor of California are still making excuses for not investigating the supply chains and continue to power manufactured EV’s with “dirty batteries”. Can this be a blatant example of hypocrisy?
With Tesla batteries weighing about 1,000 pounds, slightly more than the C-batteries in your flashlights, proper disposal of the EV batteries will be needed to be addressed in infinite detail by somebody. Another area of concern that keeps coming up in consumer surveys regards an electric car’s battery life. To be sure, replacing an electric vehicle’s battery will be an expensive proposition along with the environmental challenges to dispose of them safely.
Despite the fears, concerns, and environmental questions being evaluated by the public and the potential EV buyers, governments are wishing to counteract the slower than expected transition to EV’s. Governments are starting to make giant steps to accelerate the move away from petroleum vehicles.
Britain announced that they will ban new petrol and hybrid cars from 2035. France is preparing to ban the sale of fossil fuel-powered cars by 2040. The mayors of Paris, Madrid, Mexico City and Athens have said they plan to ban diesel vehicles from city centers by 2025. The ban on fossil fueled vehicles is gaining momentum internationally!
Government involvement in our daily lives recalls the most terrifying nine words in the English language:” I’M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I’M HERE TO HELP.”
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Noite to Europe,
Keep electing dumb-ass politicians to represent you and this is what you get.
When the Socialists want to shut you down, they just turn off the electricity.
Frack’on baby.
MAGA.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/13/autonomous-vehicles-could-be-an-environmental-boon-or-disaster-depending-on-public-policy/#comment-2653757
If electric cars become commonplace, we will need to double or triple grid energy capacity – that means new electricity generation, transmission and distribution systems, doesn’t it?
Most politicians can think no further than “energy comes from a plug in the wall.” It’s a bit more complicated than that.
In the past, new scientific advances became tidal waves or avalanches by a slow process. Note how slowly the steam engine replaced horses. It took the Federal Government promising land to the railroads to make much of a change.
Factories moved from waterwheels and overhead belt drive shafts to electric motors over a period of 50 years (more in some of the shops I’ve been in…)
We are slowly seeing >undocumented, no peer review< postings on LENR heat-release efforts with COP (coefficient of performance) over 1 (amazing) to 50x or greater. How long will this take to commercialize: Text is provided by some of the derision seen when Edison tried to sell DC electricity. A real long time unless the "hobbyists" combine to share details. Some documented repeats of the Fleischman and Pons successful tests have been seen, but are clouded by the many who tried but only succeeded by chance. Physicists tell me it is because it does not follow the orthodoxy accepted after the early 20th century, and thus cannot get funding. DOE follows orthodoxy quite closely- their conservatism.
Either "free" electricity at charging stations, or on-board EV energy will get it started. 50 years?
LENR
Low Energy Nuclear Reaction
Early steam engines were expensive, inefficient and dangerous. As time went on, they improved.
As a technology, electric cars are well over 100 years old. There are very few improvements left to make.
Exactly. Really nothing left but tiny incremental improvements possible for electric motors & batteries.
Yes, as I mentioned up-thread, the idea that the first ICE were only slightly different than a horse-drawn carriage is ridiculous.
A EV beside a current ICE without nameplates would confuse most non-car experts.
Two weeks ago I could not spell “Engineer,” now I are one.
Worldwide there are 5 million electric vehicles on the road. There are a Billion ICE vehicles! That is right, 0.5%. The batteries take over 8 hours to recharge fully with a charger you could put in your home at 240 volts. Hmm, let’s go to the beach in the next state over, but how will we get home?
You should give up on cold fusion, as everyone else has, nothing there.
Doubling or tripling only works if you can somehow find a way for the populace to stagger their charging times evenly throughout the day. If as is more likely, they all decide to charge after they get home from work, then the increase needed in generating capacity is going to be a lot more.
My point is:
The true total cost of EV’s is far too expensive for its marginal improvement in urban air quality – a much better air improvement would be to ban diesels in cities.
Also there will be NO reduction in CO2 emissions from an all-electric fleet – green energy is not green, produces little useful (dispatchable) energy and will not supply the EV fleet – fossil fuels or nuclear will.
Here in southeastern Michigan DTE Energy uses roughly double the average US percentage of coal.
So the “fuel” for an electric car here is about 64% coal.
That doesn’t sound ‘green’ to me.
Not to mention no significant charging infrastructure across the US for long trips.
My Dad was an electrician, and talked about electric cars for the last 50 years of
of his 98 year life. He even bought an electric bicycle. I got tired of the subject, but one thing I do remember from our conversations: ‘The batteries were not even close to being good enough / light enough to replace gasoline, and what do you do with the batteries when they are worn out?
Mr. Macrae, I personally hate the stench of smudge pots (my personal term for diesel engines), but if diesels are banned in big cities, what is the replacement delivery system? Ban diesel F-250s, sure, but how do we deliver all of the food and Nike shoes everyone needs?
I would absolutely be in favor of a ban on noncommercial diesel vehicles, but I’m not sure it is practical to eliminate, or re-power, the big trucks. Swear I’m not trying to troll here, just curious how the in town delivery gap gets filled after a ban. Thanks.
RG wrote:
“I would absolutely be in favor of a ban on noncommercial diesel vehicles, but I’m not sure it is practical to eliminate, or re-power, the big trucks.”
I don’t see this as much of a challenge. For in-city deliveries, we can use gasoline, propane or compressed-natural-gas powered smaller trucks.
We changed the fuel standards for diesel several decades ago, but they still stink – just not as much. I chaired a team that approved the investment of hundreds of millions in a mid-distillate hydrotreater at Syncrude Canada, to improve the cetane index of diesel and the smoke point of jet fuel.
For long haul trucking, it’s hard to beat diesel. LNG has been tried, but my friend who owns a large trucking company says LNG reliability is still an issue. One truck breakdown wastes a lot of money so he doesn’t like LNG heavy haulers.
Well, using a crystal ball:
Charging time is only a problem if you assume the battery pack itself is not swapped out. Given the cost of battery pack, that’s a pretty safe bet for home. Maybe you rent battery packs and keep a spare at home? So a new economic model.
What if they start using a liquid battery where you replace the battery liquid(s) and recharge them in mass? So a new engineering model.
The absolute most clever solution would be to somehow combine some common elements (like maybe carbon and hydrogen as a far out example) thus trapping energy in their chemical bonds, and then oxidize this to produce mostly harmless gases that could be expelled into the atmosphere. The smartest path.
As electric motors become more efficient the use of hybrids should become more common (assuming they still make them in 10 years), Design an engine (combustion or turbine) that runs optimally at one speed to produce electric current, and then use this for both driving and charging a small set of batteries. Now you get the best of both worlds – great MPG, great range, and great control over the entire range of speeds and conditions. I honestly believe this will be the next viable step for people needing ranges over 100 miles (and using either a heater or an air conditioner, and not stuffed into a tiny sardine can).
Renting battery packs and keeping a spare – this doubles the raw materials required. Rare earths from China are not the most environmentally clean source
Liquid battery – still requires recharging energy which requires many more intermittent solar/wind resources
“The absolute most clever solution would be to somehow – are you advising AOC or do you have a unicorn farm? Look up ‘presumptuous’.
Which engineering company do you work for so that I can steer clear of it?
Robert of Texas,
First time I heard that they were going to come out with a gas/electric hybrid I immediately assumed it would be a gas/diesel powered generator powering an all electric drive system. You know what they say about assumptions… To this day I can’t believe one of the automotive manufacturers hasn’t brought the design to market as a smarter hybrid while advertising it as the answer to EV range anxiety.
In Oregon we have infill policies in place where they try to squeeze as many people as they can into as small of an area as possible. On top of that they would like to force everyone out of a car onto public transportation. Doesn’t exactly leave a lot ways to charge your EV (if you actually have a place to park it) over night. Just one reason amongst many why a “green” state like Oregon hasn’t bought into EV’s.
Design an engine (combustion or turbine) that runs optimally at one speed to …
Wouldn’t the leftie Green weenies LOVE to FORCE me to operate my motor vehicle at One “optimal” speed they dictate? Yeah, I meet your type on the roads every day. YOU are the reason I refuse to drive i-5 anymore. You’re the ones who drive ONE speed in the passing lane. The drivers who ignore the signs admonishing “Slower Traffic Keep Right”.
Battery packs cost upwards of 10K dollars, they also weigh hundreds of pounds. If you think that a home owner is just going to keep a spare in the corner in order to swap out, the way you do camera batteries, then you just haven’t studies the subject much.
Electric motors are already as efficient as they are going to get.
Kenji, calm down there, what he’s talking about is a gas powered generator to run electric motors. The most efficient way to run any ICE is at a constant speed, with constant speed the engine can be optimized for fuel use and emissions. Modern ICE cars have to be able to operate over a wide range of RPM’s so designers have make compromises, they make it as efficient as they can over that range but it’s not as efficient as the motor can be at a set RPM.
Don’t worry, your go pedal will still work but the ICE RPM will not change, the electric motors driving your wheels RPM will go up instead. Fuel use will go up and down depending on how the generator is loaded and that load is what drive the electric motors. Take your typical household Honda generator, you can hear the engine change tones as load changes (fridge kicking on/off, etc.) but if you put a tack on the output shaft you would see it turning the same speed. At the same time that tiny little gas tank can run the generator for hours because it’s been maximized for efficiency.
BTW there’s no way you can call me an tree hugging, Subaru Forester driving, eco warrior nutcase. If I’m driving down I5 in the left hand lane passing a truck while doing 70 and your doing 70+ don’t hold your breath waiting on me to speed up the pass to get out of your way. I’m already doing 5 over the speed limit and have no intention of going any faster just so someone can get to their destination a minute sooner. Even though that cop sitting up there will probably allow me 10 over it’s not worth the higher insurance rates to find out when I know he’ll give me 5 (as I regularly get passed by the guy when I’m doing 5 over). Those higher insurance rates will cost me more than the extra gas I burn going faster. I’ve been there, done that and have no intention of ever going back to those higher rates.
Robert
“The absolute most clever solution would be to somehow combine some common elements (like maybe carbon and hydrogen as a far out example) thus trapping energy in their chemical bonds, and then oxidize this to produce mostly harmless gases that could be expelled into the atmosphere. The smartest path.”
You just described an ICE powered car. Was that your intention?
Good joke if it was.
Robert of TX-
I think you hit a nail on the head. Now, and into the forseeeable future hybrid vehicles are the only real alternative. With new engine designs several mfg’ers(Mazda + others) have developed direct injection, ignition controlled gas engines of similar efficiency to diesels- Toyota Prius and similar get just under 60% efficiency. Similar diesels, using more energy dense fuel, get 60%, +/-. That is similar to the best efficiency of large combined cycle gas turbines installations. Barring some theoretical catalyst to recover the energy in NOx we’ve nearlyly hit the thermodynamic limit.
Small gas turbines are inherently inefficient(volume to energy ratio). They lose way to much heat and adequate insulation would be heavy and cost prohibitive.
Typical industrial electric motors run around 85% efficiency. I think the theoretical limit, due to inherent losses, is somewhere above 90%, 5-7% efficiency gains may be possible. It mainly involves how thick the laminations in the coils are, and how well the wire volume is packed into the coils. Many motors already use square or trapezoidal wire for better backing.
Swapping batteries is a huge design and cost problem. At roughly $5,000 each a stockpile of 50 batteries at a charging station would be improbably, even with on the spot recharging.
Sodium Ion batteries are already being sold as a competitor to lithium ion battery. The materials are much more abundant, much cheaper, and safer to use.
Liquid batteries have along way to go but offer a lot of promise for practical grid storage. They all seem to feature an all liquid internal structure with relatively immiscible liquid that separate by density into an anode, electrolyet, and cathode. They all have to operate at high temperatures. MIT rearchers have made prototypes of a calcium-magnesium batter that looks promising but runs at 300°C.
Swapping the battery for a quick charge is not going to happen. Swapping the battery as part of a “battery-as-a-service” model might be plausible.
There is the slogan “power by the hour” with respect to jet engines used in commercial air transports. This was explained by a speaker at my engineering college from General Electric. The claim is that the jet engine warranties and finance arrangements are structured in a way that the airlines are effectively paying by the hour of operation.
The speaker also explained that for the warranty to be honored, the pilots couldn’t just “firewall the throttles (i.e. push them all the way forward)” but had to respect the “rating” assigned to a given jet engine in a specific service. Sure, in an emergency, the captain would call for maximum thrust and worry about the finances later, but if crews are trained that if the engines are rated at a maximum RPM, turbine inlet temperature, or fan pressure ratio, they would observe the gauges and operate the throttles to stay within that rating. A crew’s flight planning in terms of how heavily the plane could be loaded and how much runway it would need is based on that rating.
Say you have an electric car and the replacement battery costs almost as much as the original purchase price of the car. That is a mighty big expenditure, especially when the car is older and the owner is not sure if they want to keep the car. On the other hand, the 200,000 mile gasoline expenditure for even a fuel-efficient gasoline car is about the purchase price of the car, only the gasoline purchases are made in small amounts over time.
Now I would not expect an EV owner on a freeway on ramp to monitor a bank of gauges and carefully advance the throttle levers as an airline pilot on takeoff. I actually do such a thing, at least monitoring tach readings and listening for shift points to not burn through more gas than needed for the traffic conditions, but I might be odd in that respect. On the other hand, a modern EV has some manner of computer keeping track of the battery conditions — temperature, state of charge — and calculating estimates of current capacity and so on. That computer could also monitor how hard the battery is being used — is it stored for a long time at its extremes of low or high charge, is the driver making jack-rabbit starts, how many charge cycles have been applied, and so on. The computer can also give the motorist feedback on how hard the battery is being used and what its remaining lifetime is.
So the concept is that you lease the battery in a kind of power-by-the-hour contract, one that also takes into account usage patterns. Part of this contract would be that the computer keeps track of usage patterns according to some agreed-upon standard analogous to pilots not firewalling the jet engine throttles except in an emergence. If you do a lot of quick starts, your warranty wouldn’t be invalidated, but the computer could keep track of that and tell the owner how much they are paying for the level of usage they are demanding from the battery.
If the battery condition deteriorates faster than the algorithm prediction based on use patterns, the warranty provisions ought to kick in, offering the owner a sooner battery replacement. When the battery reaches some level of being used up, according to the lease/warranty contract, the owner should be offered a battery swap with either a new battery or with a used battery with a warranted level of remaining capacity.
My proposal is predicated that maybe a battery swap is not quite as simple as an oil change, but it should certainly not be as costly in labor as swapping an engine in a gas-engine car or even as costly as changing a camshaft timing belt. Maybe the labor should be comparable to changing spark plugs, that is, on a car that you don’t have to take half the engine part to get at them.
So maybe battery swapping is not plausible as a quick-charge option. But it could be part of a battery lease/warranty financial contract. Power-by-the-hour would take the worry out of “will my battery conk out and can I get it replaced affordably.”
That’s why I so love ICE. I don’t need a computer to tell me anything about what I’ve done/am doing. Hoon it, and you’re in the gas station sooner. Drive like grandma, run longer between stops. As long as the thing has oil and coolant, it’ll be happy either way.
Oh how right you are. Our idiot M P’s in Britain think this.
Excellent article, should be compulsory reading by all Government officials.
It is not that complicated. Problem is honesty and the scheme being proposed is a scam.
The UK Absolute Zero study states that the UK grid will need to triple its output (it also assumes that someone solves the power storage problem ) and the users must reduce their power consumption by 60%.
A sun and wind gathering scheme fails at the point when power storage is required and at the point when hydrocarbon burning is no longer required.
This is a good study as to what it would take (ignoring costs and practical points such as where will the energy come from to build the green stuff) to get the UK to Absolute Zero CO2 emissions by 2050 …
It is astonishing that no one has until now, started to talk about what it would take to get to Absolute Zero.
UK Absolute Zero also requires no more air travel and shipping by boat is no longer allowed.
Mining is no longer allowed which sort of rules out any manufacturing also.
Cement is not allowed.
The hydrocarbon industry must be shutdown. No more plastics, adhesives, and so on.
http://www.ukfires.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Absolute-Zero-online.pdf
William Astley: Thank you for your comment. You addressed my biggest complaint about “greenies”. They will only look at one detail, like no tail pipe or no smoke stack and declare “all is good”. They are incapable of (?) or refuse to (?) look at the whole picture with the attended factors and complications involved with producing the desired finished product. Reductio ad absurdum can be used, as you have, and even going after the pollution caused by making the pencil and paper to use for coming up with an idea. Going so far as to be stupid on my part, absolute zero would include destroying photosynthetic plants, because they produce CO2 and it’s only when there is enough light, sun or artificial, that O2 production exceeds CO2 production.
What you fail to mention is that electric vehicles are three to four times more efficient than ICE vehicles. Even if the electricity is generated centrally using fossil fuels, a combined cycle power plant is over 60 percent efficient. An ICE 25 is percent efficient. The main problem with EVs is the up front capital cost. Unless you are logging some serious mileage, the savings on fuel don’t make up for the high up front cost. However, it’s just a matter of time.
Another massive problem caused by these EVs in Europe is the huge crowds hanging around at motorway services. I regularly travel across Europe, and I’ve especially learned to avoid any services with charging stations. They are chock-full of people just wandering aimlessly about while their cars charge, and others continually cruising around at slow speeds trying to find a space to charge as soon as it is vacant. The restaurants are also full of people, mostly spending way more time than the meal needs, killing time while their car charges, and hogging tables from those of us who are able to refuel in a timely manner.
I struggle through them all, eventually get to the fuel pumps and fill up in 2 minutes and get on my way fast, finding another service station with no EV charging to have a much more pleasant time over a meal.
I suspect that the hope of more customers will soon change to a realisation that time-killing EV owners are not spending as much as zippy fossil fuel drivers.
Tesla model S $79,990 – $99,990
Tesla model X $84,990 – $104,990
Tesla model 3 $48,990 – $56,990 ($39,990 standard (not being built yet)
Tesla model y $52,990 – $60,990
Tesla Uglitruk $39,990 – $69,990
Tesla Roadster $250,000 once it returns from Mars
Jaguar F pace $52,000 – $92,000
Audi Etron $74,000+
Ford MachE Mustang $44,000 – $60,000+
BMW I3 $44,000 – $48,000
These are just some of the “New” models coming to gather dust at a dealership near you
And they wonder what could be the reason sales are tanking??? Price!!!
Chevy very recently unveiled its 2020 Bolt, with a price (under $30000 after federal tax credit) and features to compete well against Tesla’s Model 3.
What Chevrolet and GMC marketing geniuses fail to realize is that in the US market, EVs are the cars of the affluent. So do they really think they are going to drive around in a Chevy Bolt, or a Euro snob Audi/BMW EV? Or a Model X/S Tesla?
We all know the answer to that. The Bolt will fail just like the Volt.
Chevy needs to understand its owners are more likely to shop at WalMart than an AJs upscale grocery store.
What Chevrolet and GMC marketing geniuses fail to realize is that in the US market, EVs are the cars of the affluent
Indeed. and a little thought will reveal one of the reasons why that might be (beyond the price point being out of reach for the less well off). Who is likely to own a home with a garage where the EV can easily be charged at home? the more affluent. Who is likely to rent an apartment where there is no place “at home” to charge? The less well affluent. With the long charge times (even the “fast” charge time of half an hour is too long for most people), if you can’t charge at home then you are not likely to want to own one.
With their propensity to self ignite I would not even consider putting an EV inside any part of my house.
Not likely to own what? An EV or a home, or both
Joe, those who don’t live in a home that has easy access to an outlet for an EV are unlikely to want to own an EV.
The Bolt is nasty car when you look at how it is put together. I would not take one if someone gave it to me.
I’d take one if someone gave it to me. Then I would drive it down to the dealer in order to trade it in on a model that I can actually use.
You ever try to get in and out if one? For me, highly impractical
The 2020 Bolt is listing at dealerships at $44,340 (don’t consider incentives)
So before tax credits, the Bolt starts at $36,500. Every Chevy ICE car model starts well below that, from the Spark at $13,300 to the Impala at $28,000. If you take the mid-range of the models, the Cruze at $18,000, you can buy two of them for the price of 1 Bolt. Another option would be to drive it until I burn the extra $18K in fuel. At $3.00/gal (current price in my area $2.23/gal) I can buy 6,000 gallons of fuel which would be good for about 170K miles at the advertised 28 mpg (city). The average American drives around 15K miles per year, so the break even hits around 11 years. That is before a single mile has been accumulated on the Bolt.
The simple reason that Americans aren’t adopting EVs in large numbers is, first and foremost, because they simply cost too much in comparison to their competition.
As I am sure you are aware, your 11 year calculation assumes electricity is free and there is no inflation. Money spent now is worth more than money spent in the future.
Ummmm, I believe Chevrolet builds a model called Corvette with starting price well above $37k . . .
Using Canadian Pricing:
Chevy Bolt (Sub Compact car): $45k (base model)
Chevy Trax (Compact crossover): $22k (base model)
The EV is over twice the price, and a smaller vehicle. People around here spending $45k are looking for either a luxury vehicle or a working pickup truck. No one is paying $45k for a subcompact. Not to mention, in Alberta, 93% of our electricity is from non-renewable fuels. The whole thing is a bad joke.
Roger mentioned the Bolt is under $30k (USD?) $30kUSD is again a huge amount of money for a subcompact.
Apparently, the Tesla 3 is a unique 4×4 in the fact it has two motors and two axles and no differentials.
That would seem to have a different definition of what 4X4 means.
I was under the impression the definition 4X4 was 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel independent suspension. That would require at least 4 axels and at least one differential transmission from each motor so as to drive each axel.
One could integrate a differential transmission into a motor housing and mechanism , but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
The two motors on a model 3 are integrated with the inverter unit and final drive assembly, IIRC, the ration is 9.5:1. That’s one reason acceleration is so good.
Ration = ratio.
4X4 is for off-roading. Most Jeeps have it and some other brands also. All four wheels are locked together by the drive train so no wheel spins. Horrible driving behavior on pavement if you don’t drive carefully and lots of tread wear and drive train wear. Your choice is between AWD and rear drive with a locking differential.
On road 4 wheel drive has a self-locking differentials between front/rear wheels and between the front wheels and the rear wheels. Any wheel that spins gets temporarily locked up. I have a Toyo Sienna with all wheel drive. When turning onto wet or snowy roads you can feel and hear the various wheels slip and stop intermittently if you accelerate too hard.
Beware, the front/rear driveshaft is a common, expensive trouble spot.
“4X4 is for off-roading”
I remember when I believe the Sidekick was popular, and how many times we passed them in the ditches up in Northern Ontario when the hipsters came to a sudden, and expensive realization that 4X4 doesn’t mean what they think it means.
I don’t use mine for off-roading at all. I use it to get home in the winter. The grade of the road is at least 13%in multiple places, and if it snows before the ground is frozen, 4WD-Lo and locked in second (maintain steady RPM) is the ONLY way to make it up that final hill. It’s not my driveway – it is the road to three homes, including mine. I’ve tried to help a neighbor get home under those conditions. Even with him chained and me towing him, I couldn’t get him up the lesser of the hills to our homes. You can’t even set the vehicle in park and leave it on that road – that only locks two wheels, and that is insufficient to hold the vehicle in place.
Weather can be real here near Reno, NV.
What you describe is a part-time 4×4 drivetrain. Full-time 4×4 systems have one differentials, one in the transfer case (Centre) and one in each axle. The one in the transfer case can usually be locked. The two in the axles are usually open. You do get a bit of tyre scrub when driving a part-time 4×4 system in 4×4 mode on pavement and with a full-time system with the centre differential locked.
Subaru 4×4 cars usually have a viscus coupling on the centre differential, some can be adjusted to set a bias to the rear.
The F-Pace is an internal combustion engine powered vehicle.. The I-Pace is the all electric model…
The I-Pace starts at about 4 grand more than the F-Pace, but otherwise it’s in the same price band…
The decision there isn’t can you afford electric it’s firstly about are you willing to pay for the Jag badge in the first place…
Point being all the “New Electric Models” are mostly unaffordable to someone making $50,000
And those that are affordable are small and difficult to get in and out of for older people
Or people with kids, groceries, etc.
Tesla model S $79,990 – $99,990
Tesla model X $84,990 – $104,990
Jeesh. A hundred K frac’in bucks for an electric motor & a battery underneath a car body…..
Hell of a golf cart though!
The BMW Mini electric car is being released in the U.K. later this year with an entry price of £25000 ($32500/ 43000 $Canadian )
Not only are EV tailpipes located at an invisible distance in the indispensable electric power plants (some of which are still coal fired) or else according to the idealized distant wind turbines, solar panel farms, and their storage battery reserves; but the steel in these vehicles’ chassis and body panels requires coked coal to produce or alternatively their plastics derive from petroleum. This is such a systematic fool’s errand of denial that high energy density fossil fuels and nuclear energy are required to fashion all the very machinery that is accorded the misnomer of ‘sustainable’ for harvesting a ‘free’ energy resource when they are no such thing, but need conventional generation means to putter along with any continuity. Doesn’t pass the sniff test of anyone with a nose for the truth that ‘steals’ adolescent dreams.
On the other hand if you want to see some ‘stolen dreams’, wait until a subsequent generation hears how their predecessors didn’t labor under the bare subsistence conditions they were deeded by those who had claimed to care so much for them!
The EVs of the future will be constructed of rainbows, butterflies and unicorn horns.
Something is seriously wrong with the sales graph.
It shows “US States with Highest EV Sales” plus a category for the “Rest of US”.
The lowest state shown is Pennsylvania with 1.8%. Presumably every other state, not shown, is less than that.
How is it that the category “Rest of US” is 19%?
Added all together the rest of the states equal
19% of the total amount of EVs sold…
There are 13 states named, meaning “Rest of US” covers 37 states. 19% spread over 37 states means an average of around 0.5% per state. 0.5% is less then 1.8%. The graph looks fine, it’s your understanding of it that apparently was seriously wrong 😉
The graph shows that one state, California, accounts for 46.8% of EV sales. The rest of the country buys the rest at rates down around 4% or less(19 states around .5-.8%).
I look forward battery-powered commercial aircraft:
” … The energy equivalent of the aviation fuel actually used by an aircraft flying to Asia would take $60 million worth of Tesla-type batteries weighing five times more than that aircraft …”.
If correct that encapsulates the energy efficiency advantage of light easily transported hydrocarbons over batteries for transport and the folly of state interference in consumers’ free choice.
https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/sites/default/files/R-0319-MM.pdf
Once I made that calculation for a 747-8F en-route with a supposed thermal engine efficiency of 35% and electrical engine efficiency of 100%.
In terms of Tesla 100 kWh batteries, the fuel equivalent burn came roughly to 500 batteries flat empty per hour.
Now what ?
Don’t worry, convection currents from the warming atmosphere will keep it aloft without any need for engine power!
(Do I need the “sarc” tag?)!!!
Thermalling to gain height will go down well with the passengers and schedules…. :^)
I don’t think a commercial airliner with a 600ft wingspan will find many place to land.
Oh, it will find a place to land, alright, but much like the difference between, say, modeled performance, wind tunnel performance, test flight performance, there is quite a bit of difference between “optimal place to land” and “place to land that doesn’t kill many people”.
Don’t be a spoilsport with all your real world data and stuff. We’re still talking about kids with mud pies pretending its chocolate cake – but they not only want tax payers to taste the mud, they want us to pretend right along with them that its better than anything Cadbury can produce.
It can be done. Place nozzles behind the lithium batteries, set the batteries on fire so they’ll explode, and you have a ballistic commercial plane aimed at the destination.
Mid-air recharging? Just need some big planes with diesel generators and a large fuel load to drop a power cord to the electric plane.
I can just see the pilot rolling down the side window in order to reach out and grab the cord.
The plane would carry 3000 batteries and 12 passengers.
…and, I would hope, parachutes…
Now we are down to 10 passengers. Fewer if any of the passengers want to bring their carry on.
Is it correct to assume that these electric powered aircraft (which our current UK PM believes will be available in just a few years time) will actually be propeller driven . How will the cruising speed and altitude compare to, say , the A380 or a 747? Perhaps the increased weight , and therefore momentum, of the electric aircraft will enable it to shrug off increased turbulence due to lower altitude and the effects of AGW.
Or is the final weight of a electric aircraft the same as a jet of the same size (and same lifting surface area ), just lower payload to compensate for battery weight?
Is there a respected primer on this subject for those of us with such basic ignorance of a rather intriguing topic?
Batteries are about 50 times heavier than jet fuel, thus electric panes can only do very short distances. – Electric planes are a giant step back to the Wright brothers’ era.
Mike you would be correct that electric power is limited to propellor driven aircraft. The 747-8F currently runs the GEnX turbofan engines which push out around 296Kn of thrust each. And there are four of them. There is not an electric motor made that can drive a propellor big enough to do that and still fit on the wing pylons. It is not simply a matter of having enough battery capacity to make it work. There has been one aircraft retrofitted with an electric motor – a DHC-2 Beaver floatplane that flew recently. As to it’s performance and range I haven’t seen the figures. I can’t see the idea ‘taking off’ if you’ll excuse the pun. I don’t believe it would even be possible to convert very many types to electric power and retain their utility. Certainly not larger aircraft. They would have to come up with completely new designs of aircraft to use electric power and I can’t see it being cost effective.
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has committed to make Canada carbon-free by 2050. To his credit, he has announced an innovative solution to your problem.
In a recent public statement, Trudeau announced:
“I have conceived a way to make electric airplanes technically and economically viable – I mean, like, y’know, aw, totally! It involves a very long extension cord…”
We rejected another concept for environmental reasons – because large rubber bands are not carbon-neutral.
All of these distant commitments are just so much BS. Trudeau will likely not even be alive by 2050. As the time approaches, either the commitments will be pushed off, or more likely, no one in the political arena at the time will even remember the commitment was made, and business will continue as usual.
“All of these distant commitments are just so much BS. Trudeau will likely not even be alive by 2050”
Yeah, that’s the bloody corollary of the “think of the children” and “10-year olds should vote because they’ll spend more time in the future than you do” crap.
Generally, I tell my political opponents that instead of wishing them ill-will, I actually hope they live long and happy lives in the future they’ve created. They can start by moderating a “Trans Rights vs. Feminists vs. Fundamentalist Religion discussion…
To make an electric plane feasible will require wireless broadcast of electricity and that’s not going to happen.
Like so many other things, the technological breakthroughs to make an electric powered jumbo jet possible, pretty much, would obviate the need for such a conveyance in the first place.
Cheers
Max
Even if you could get a transmitter working, the energy density is 3 to 5 orders of magnitude too small to power an airplane.
Yeah that would be the folks up here in the Pacific NW burning thru Singapore’s Clermont Group’s money to built the first commercial Electric Aircraft.
There was the first flight test of the concept last December up in Vancouver B.C.
Here’s the report:
By then, MagniX partnered with Harbour Air to electrify its entire fleet: the first converted aircraft was to be a DHC-2 Beaver serving as the test prototype for the magniX motor, energy storage, and control systems.[5] On December 10, 2019, the eBeaver flew for the first time.[6] Low energy density but proven lithium-ion batteries filled the cabin and took the prototype to its maximum gross weight to provide enough energy for a 15 min flight with a 25 min reserve.
WoW! A great start! those low energy density batteries are a real hang up in this venture, I guess. “filled the cabin” = a battery transportation system.
But the magical batteries will make short hopping a dream come true!
I’ve taken the flight from Victoria to Seattle before – it’s a fun/quick way to go, but they won’t be electrifying their fleet anytime soon.
The BBC website has a piece on various electric plane projects. Its very optimistic.
“Very”
😉
And with battery degradation worsened by deep frequent (systematic ?) discharges and evil take-off electron flows, the whole point of prematurely replacing batteries with new ones to comply with “fuel management regulations” would propel maintenance costs to military grade altitudes.
Obviously they would be those attempting refurbished units and their unavoidable consequence on casualties statistics.
Finally hydrogen filled airships would prevail as a significantly safer alternative.
Sounds like a plan ?
Thank you for the suggested link Jock. It totally blows away my scepticism with claims such as this:
“Already, Airbus is looking at an electric aircraft that can carry 100 passengers 1,000km by 2030, says Falk-Peterson.”
So perhaps Boris is right to claim UK will shortly have an all electric fleet – or is he being deceived by the BBC? I presume that at some point subsidies will be demanded by BA and Ryanair etc and these will have to be massive to allow an electric short haul aircraft to be able to compete with a fully loaded conventional plane.
I heard they got a deal on some 737max airframes…
10 years to develop a completely novel type of passenger aircraft and get it into service? Not a chance.
Would I be mean if I suggested who should be the first testees?
And not a chance I would ever get on one if they did!
“Already, Airbus is looking at an electric aircraft that can carry 100 passengers 1,000km by 2030, says Falk-Peterson.”
An A380 stuffed full of batteries might manage 1000km with only 100 passengers on board (and no luggage).
“An A380 stuffed full of batteries might manage 1000km with only 100 passengers on board (and no luggage).”
…and no headwind…and no weather to go around…and no delays in landing…etc.
As long as the passengers were really, really, skinny.
So…Hollywood stars and supermodels then?
Kinda like the same virtue signalling crew that is already buying all those EV in California.
If I can corner the market on where to eventually dispose of lapsed EV batteries that will offset my losses as a taxpayer on the disposing of decommissioned windmill blades.
I have a place I already use. It’s a bit difficult to get to, but I know I can dispose of the windmill blades AND batteries without any concern. I can’t give you an address, but the location is 17.75N x 142.5E.
Ya gotta love the Marianas Trench when you want things out of sight and out of mind.
Didn’t work for the Decepticons.
???
Graph has 13 states, so balance of rest of states is 37. 19/37=apx0.5% EV market share avg for these 37 states which is lower than PA 1.8%. I don’t see anything seriously wrong with sales graph.
This article is full of half-truths and should not have beeb published by WUWT. Just for example his reference to mining of rare minerals applies mostly to Cobalt: used in jet engine alloys. Why accuse EVs of abuse and not aircraft? In any case the battery industry are working hard on removing cobalt from cathodes. Lithium iron Phosphate cells are already cobalt free.
And for the record I’m an EV driver and I am a climate change sceptic, more worried about global cooling than global warming
Yes, the real exotic minerals are those for the BEVs’ specialized electric motors, and are the sometimes toxic rare earths mostly mined in China.
@roger – you have to explain that. I thought it was normal three phase motors thy used nowadays.
Why do you think that Joel? My brother and his wife just got rid of their last ICE so they are now a 2 EV family.
I agree with what you say about money buying security: what has that to do with EVs? Of course early adopters tend to be slightly wealthier but that was true of cell phones, colour TVs, pocket calculators and PCs.
Carl – you are right that the Tesla Model S has a pure three phase induction motor with (to my knowledge) no exotics. I believe the Model 3 has a permanent magnet motor (I may be wrong) which uses exotic metals presumably in the same way as any permanent magnet. Not my area though.
I don’t hear any objection to the use of exotics in gas turbines
JH said: “I don’t hear any objection to the use of exotics in gas turbines” Probably because it’s a matter of quantity. A gas turbine may use more “exotics” but we’re talking replacing millions of ICE engines.
And your EV car is backed up by 1 or more ICE cars, I have no doubt about that.
Money buys security that most in the middle class can not afford.
The billionaires and elites are banking on that.
Depends on what you are counting as an EV. the sub-category of EV known as PHEV doesn’t need “1 or more ICE cars” as a backup, as it has it’s own gasoline-powered backup built-in.
Also depends on how and where you use it. For someone who mainly only commutes short distances to and from work, a pure electric EV will get the job done without a need for a back-up. For someone who routinely drives long distances, drives in below freezing temps, or hauls large/heavy loads back and forth (among other situations that EVs are poor at handling) – better have an reliable ICE back-up vehicle handy, you’re gonna need it.
That all said, the pure elective EVs are not practical for the budget, usage and/or living arrangement (IE house with place to charge vs apartment without) of most drivers, which is why they remain a very small niche of total car sales despite all the OPM incentives from the government.
John – agreed on the commute. Ideal application for an EV. When I first started using an EV it saved me about £140 a month in commuting fuel costs (I’m in the UK)
In other words, the only half-truth that you can document is actually true, but getting less so over time.
The only reason they will be bought in the main stream is because the politicians will have banned the alternatives.
Go long on companies that repair and restore old vehicles, manufacture parts etc.
But eventually we will be forced to move over
The age of mass ownership of personal vehicles may be coming to an end. Looking around at the number of electric scooters using apps, hire and abandon model, tells me this is where cars are heading.
… and how much fuel is used by the ICE trucks that drive around the city picking up all those discarded scooters and dropping them back off in high traffic areas? The scooters themselves may be ‘environmentally friendly’, but the infrastructure that supports them is not.
I like driving my non aerodynamic ICE truck. Being higher up you have much better vision.
If politicians ban the alternatives, I predict the people will replace the politicians, not their vehicles.
Maybe the rest of the developed world will take a cue from the U.S. and elect their own Trumps. Great Britain seems to have already done that. Merkel is in trouble. Trudeau seems to be having his share of trouble as well. Aussies seem to be more and more up in arms over their green energy plans, etc.
In other words, you’re right, jtom.
The press, which is composed largely of people who know absolutely nothing about anything is hypnoitised with the idea that BEVs are a hyper modern technology.
Nothing could be further from the truth. My Great grandmother, of blessed memory, owned a BEV, a Baker Eelectric, before the Great War. Mrs. Henry Ford, Sr., drove a Detroit Electric around that town. In that era, BEVs were a third of the automobiles on the street.
Then they disappeared from the city streets and became limited to niche jobs — golf carts, warehouse vehicles.
What happened? simple. ICE vehicles got a lot better. The electric starter eliminated the difficult and dangerous task of cranking the motor to a start. Syncromesh transmissions made gear shifting easier, followed by automatics.
The modern ICE vehicle has been the beneficiary of far more technological improvement that the BEV.
Walter – you are right on the history. What is new now is lithium-ion batteries with 3x the energy density and far longer lives. Some EVs go over 300 miles on a charge. You can’t do that with lead
Yes, but lead does not require the death of African children for its production.
I have never understood why hybrids have a complete replicated drive train, instead of an engine running on highest efficiency and charging the battery while you drive. I am this is dictated by engineering and the math, but I have never seen an analysis. Any suggestions?
David Stone answered you below, and I can add to that, that many have done practical tests and found the consumption tend to be slightly higher for hybrid during mixed driving as most people do. It may make sense in cluttered city traffic though. I could imagine the urban postman would benefit greatly, where his or her route is too long for BEV.
Most hybrids are parallel hybrids with the engine and electric motor working together. Series hybrids, such as the now out of production Chevy Volt, use the battery first and then have engine merely as a generator a except when it is more efficient at which time a planetary gear directly connected to the engine turns thw wheels.
The reason that most of America don’t want electric vehicles is that people tend to drive much further and there is no infrastructure for charging at convenient intervals. Again the battery is not the answer, but fossil fuel is! Many drive 8 hours on a freeway at weekends, to go somewhere a bit different, and that is about all that they can manage. Try charging in one of the national parks!
Imaging the fun to be had in the event of a fire in an EV on a crowded motorway/interstate at holiday time.
Apparently the emergency services won’t touch it until the fire has burnt itself out before loading it into a skip for removal to a disposal utility.
Meanwhile the road surface will be well and truely cooked, and need resurfacing.
The thousands of EVs held up in the traffic jam will have run out of juice, especially in cold weather, and need towing to a recharging station.
The recovery services will make an absolute killing.
“especially in cold weather”
Or in hot weather when the AC is needed to keep the family from toasting.
Most EVs have an easily accessed area that can be used to cut off the high voltage connections to reduce the risk of electrocution. But even then the batteries can be very dangerous if structurally compromised. They can self-combust as long as 24 hours after taking an impact. Lithium is flammable and can be explosive when exposed to air or water.
I pity the poor two truck driver who has to haul them somewhere 50 or more feet from any combustible materials or structures.
In answer to Emrys
This is because the electric motor in a hybrid is not very powerful to keep the weight down. A full power generator and motor system would probably add at least 100kg to the all up weight, and would spoil the fuel consumption. Hybrids may start off on electric only, but try a hill and the engine must run otherwise you will probably stop dead and the battery go flat very quickly!
“This is because the electric motor in a hybrid is not very powerful to keep the weight down.”
Why not Wankel engines in hybrids? Wankel’s have their problems, but they can generate an amazing amount of power from a quite small engine. One of the advantages of hybrid should be that the engine can run at constant speed and therefore can be tuned for maximum power and minimum emissions.
Drove a rented Prius over a short mountain range (pass level about 1500ft), thought I was going to have to get out and push. Neither motor in that thing has much power, add them both together and I don’t think you hit the average power to weight ratio of most 2.0L ICE cars. A little extra weight/power to be able to get over the hills would be just fine if you live in hill country. No it wouldn’t get the mileage but neither do ICE cars when going over hills. According to the computer in my ICE, instantaneous fuel mileage will drop 5- 20 mpg when going uphill depending on steepness but it still pops you right over the top without struggling.
50 years ago I owned a Volkswagen Beetle. The thing had a top speed of 65 mph and no ability to maintain speed on a hill. The advertising B$ has changed, but a cheap car with good gas mileage is still a small cheap car with no pick up.
Our friends had one a very kewl VW van and came to visit in in Cape Breton (that’s on the east coast of Canada, tail end of the Appalachians).
Yeah…it was fun seeing it try to get up some of those hills, that’s for sure.
30+ years ago my sister was riding with friend from college, back before they had raised speed limits from 55 to 65. Her friend had a VW Bug, she sped up to 65 before hitting a hill and a cop lit her up. She refused to pull over and kept her foot buried in the accelerator, if she did stop it would have to crawl over the hill. By the time she crested the Bug was down to 40ish, cop turned off his lights and sped off. Obviously he decided she had a valid reason to speed.
This does not apply to series hybrids.
This story is in line with bio-fuel. Novel thoughts to begin with, with no regards to cost and drawback. It is based on the fashion that we have to act now to save something.
If I had money to spare, I would also like a BEV for selfish reasons, but would feel slightly ashamed that it is the petrol/diesels cars paying for the roads and services I am driving my BEV on.
Bio-fuel is similar, but in contrast to BEV, the bio-fuel only has drawbacks, technically, environmentally as wall as socially.
The BEV concept is great in a parallel world, where batteries are about 100 times more energy dense than today (twice the density of diesel), where the electricity is produced from sources at least 10 times more energy dense than fossil-fuel (like nuclear) and where labor in the production and supply are treated and paid reasonable.
In our contemporary world, however, we are going the opposite way. We have historically gone from low energy density to higher and higher energy density. But, the Green concept has driven us to go for lower and lower energy density concerning electricity production. Continuing this trend will eventually end in using more more energy in production than the output – equilibrium.
We are going the wrong way with regards to energy density, but we will recognize this before equilibrium. However, due to fatally wrongly changed infrastructure, we will have a hard time recover, and the human and ecological suffering will be immense. – Western Europe and UN being the worst culprits followed by California.
Sadly New York is trying hard to catch up to Western Europe and California. Got to do it to be climate leaders don’t you know.
Carl — Nothing (well, not much) wrong with biofuel up to a point. Using end of life cooking oil for transportation seems entirely reasonable. What else are you going to do with it? Problem is that the supply is limited. How many french fries can any one person — even an American — eat?
Palm oil and corn ethanol. Not so desirable.
It was palm oil and corn ethanol I was referring to, as you say, waste cooking oil is a small niche.
Don, you’ll have lots of kidz ’round your parking car; eager for French fries and coke – where’s next McDonald’s.
“. . . that may be in the subconscious of the prospective EV buyers . . .”
There is nothing “subconscious” about rejecting an expensive purchase that is not fit for purpose.
Indeed. While EVs are fit for some purposes (those who have short commutes and don’t ever drive long distances, for example), they’re not fit for all the purposes that ICEs currently are.
Add to that the fact that not everyone lives in a house with a garage, making fueling them (IE charging) not so simple for a large percentage of the population (though who live in high-rise apartments for example). Nobody wants to drive to some out of the way location and have to wait half an hour (minimum) to fully charge their vehicle, yet that would be the reality for those who don’t live with an ability to charge at home. That would be a hard pass for such people.
“Indeed. While EVs are fit for some purposes …”
Exactly. On top of which the current crop of EVs are far too expensive for most of the rather limited applications where they might otherwise be the vehicle of choice. Hybrids at least make economic sense for many people and come without refueling hassles and cabin heating range limitations. EVs and PHEVs — not so much.
I do expect that at some point in the next decade or three, China or India or someone will come up with a cheap EV suitable for local shopping and the kid commuting to a local community college (Who cares if the kid has to survive without heat on Winter mornings and without air conditioning in Summer)? I imagine that they’ll sell a lot of them.
Hard to believe it’s possible to produce an EV much smaller or cheaper than a Smart Car. It hasn’t gone over very well.
Teslaron and Musk to implode in 3..2.. Unfortunately, taking millions of Americans’ pension savings with them.
I’ve always wondered: Do electric cars have heaters and, if so, what does having the heater going do to the range?
Pat from tyers
The heater, radio, electric seats, etc etc all take charge, thus less range. I remember watching a video on youtube, and the tesla owner had to sit in the bottom lane due to range, then he had to plug in to the hotel plug system, 8 hours over night and still not a full charge.
A highly discussed issue:
http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2009/06/how-to-power-heating-and-ac-in-electric.html
If you drive north of New Hampshire latitudes in winter, I would suggest a Webasto diesel heater 5kW, a small independent 12V battery and a small diesel tank of 10 liter, which will give you 20 hours of heating at full capacity or 40 hours at half capacity. It may even save your life, in case your batteries run flat or “engine” failure during your trip home in the nightly winter blizzard.
Carl Friis-Hansen,
“a Webasto diesel heater 5kW, a small independent 12V battery and a small diesel tank of 10 liter, which will give you 20 hours of heating at full capacity or 40 hours at half capacity. It may even save your life!”
This will make you pious, patient, and very competent. Keeping a logbook, equipment check before every trip, route planning, ….
Pat,
The cabin heater isn’t the only issue. In the places where the temperature drops low enough to require heat in the winter, the days are quite a bit shorter too, which means the headlights are used more often. Also, the batteries don’t hold as much of a charge when they get colder, especially below freezing. All together his can reduce the range by 50%.
Tesla is clearly a success in the design, manufacture and sales of electric vehicles. Tesla, alone among EV manufacturers, has created, owns and operates a charging network designed to let owners go where they want to go with minimum “friction” and range anxiety.
Agreed Speed. It is a whole system problem which Detroit hasn’t grasped (or is grasping a bit too late). Tesla also started by building a cell factory so they have been the only ones able to scale
I researched the charging problem if one drove from Atlanta to Orlando (Atlanta sees heavy traffic flowing through the city to Florida destinations, especially Orlando).
Unless you plan your trip really well in advance, you will easily screw up. You can’t wait until you have a range of a hundred miles to start looking for a charging station, unless you want to park overnight at a motel.
You want range anxiety? What will you feel when you head to your intended charging station, knowing you can’t make it to a different one if it has closed or is inoperable?
Not to mention the EV is not going to save us from climate change…..the carbon footprint of EVs is larger than gasoline or diesel cars, not just because fossil fuels are the primary source of energy to charge them but the massive energy requirements to make the batteries.
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/international-issues/electric-vehicles-in-germany-emit-more-carbon-dioxide-than-diesel-vehicles/
and in another study It found that a mid-size electric car would produce 23.1 tonnes of CO2 over its lifetime, compared with 24 tonnes for a similar petrol car. Emissions from manufacturing electric cars are at least 50 per cent higher because batteries are made from materials such as lithium, copper and refined silicon, which require much energy to be processed.
Many electric cars are expected to need a replacement battery after a few years. Once the emissions from producing the second battery are added in, the total CO2 from producing an electric car rises to 12.6 tonnes, compared with 5.6 tonnes for a petrol car. Disposal also produces double the emissions because of the energy consumed in recovering and recycling metals in the battery. The study also took into account carbon emitted to generate the grid electricity consumed.
They just keep pushing their AGW nonsense. The electric car is no more green than a lump of coal used to generate the power required to charge the foolish machines.
Vehicles so good their competition must be outlawed.
One of several reasons for American resistance is the greater range and mobility of our population. EVs are so much more useful in tiny countries and better yet for urban dwellers in tiny countries. Where people don’t constantly move about so much.
Then there are the taxes.
I’m not familiar with vehicle purchase options in the US, but here in the UK most private ‘buyers’ these days seem to opt for the ‘rental’ scheme offered by the manufacturers – that is, for (say) a deposit of £199 and monthly payments of £199, you get (say) a small Kia or Hyundai (obviously for higher payments you get a BMW or similar)… (but of course, you do not ‘own’ the car..)
After three years, the dealer offers you to actually buy the car for a hefty sum, or you can trade it in against a new contract – and so it goes on….
I predict a ‘sub-prime’ balloon eventually happening, as the manufacturers have got so much money out on loan.
In the meantime, I am well pleased with my one-owner, 100000-mile, fully serviced, Volvo V70 bought last year for a shade under £2000 – which I actually OWN..!
David,
It sounds like your Rental is our Lease, our rental cars are for temporary use, days to weeks. Majority of people in the US buy and not lease as at the end of the lease you have nothing so your money was essentially tossed out the window. There are business reasons to lease instead of buy so you’ll see businesses leasing cars. Some affluent people will also lease a car but those are generally people who like the no hassle new car every couple years and can afford not to build equity in their vehicles.
Oddly enough, popular used cars to buy are previously leased and rental cars. Cars are generally about 2 years old, reasonable amount of miles on them, hopefully reasonably maintained and have already taken that big price hit new cars take as soon as they are driven off the lot. Personally I wouldn’t buy a rental, I know how those things have been driven (harshly). There’s a saying here in the US among people who rent a lot of cars “Don’t worry, it’s a rental!” as you jump curbs, drift corners, etc..
“fully charge an EV, even at fast-charging stations, it takes anywhere from 30 minutes to 8 hours depending on how much of a charge (empty to full or topping off) your vehicle needs.”
Nobody fully charges aan EV at a public fast charge sttaion. 80% charges are the orm, beyonfd that point recharging rates are much slower. But at the newer fast chargers (Tesla’s 250KW and IONITY’s 350KW) an 80% charge can take as little as 10 to 15 minutes. Charging times are becoming much less of an issue, especially since most EV owners recharge at home except for long trips and the long range of current EV (pushing 300 miles and more) means never worrying about battery charges around town. Right now fast public charging stations like IONITY, which handles every EV except for Tesla’s Supercharger stations are being constructed throughout the world and will become common – oil companies and regional gas stations
are startng to install IONITY chargers in their gas stations. In the fairly near future, people will see the availlability of these fast public chargers and worry less about recharging. Right now people that live in apartments, townhouses, etc often have to use public charge stations. When recharging becomes a breeze, a large segment of the driving public will be able to buy EVs. As for battery lifespan – all are warranteed for at least 8 years and the lifespan of the batteries can exceed 15 years and will likely outlive the car. Battery prices are also much much lower than they were just 5 years ago. Probably cost less than 25% of what they used to cost. VW is going all electric and will introduce low cost EVS – less than $16,000 in the near future.
AS public chargers get faster and are ubiquitous, there is les need for a huge battery, which will reduce prices of the vehicles. And there is a trend towards optioning battery sizes as well All of the major automakers are goimng al in for electric vehicles – by 2030 I guarantee that there will be few (if any) gas powered cars in showrooms. LAws that prohibit gas powered cars by 2030 or 2040 are silly – by then there will be EVs only.
EVs are MUCH more efficient andd reliable and maintenance costs are low. SOme EVs have million mile warrantees on their electric motors and most have no transmission. EVs are simpler to make and have far fewer parts than a gas powered vehicles. They are far easier and cheaper to own and fuel No one in their right mind wouldprefer a gas powered vehicles if they could d buy an EV for roughly the same price. And with batteries costing $100 per kWhr or lless, EVs are price competitive with gas powered cars and will cost far less to operate. EVs are superior for reasons that have nothing to do with emissions
Charging times are becoming much less of an issue, especially since most EV owners recharge at home except for long trips
That’s because most EV owners are affluent enough to live in houses where they have easy access to an outlet to charge from. The less affluent, who live in apartments that don’t have such access generally don’t own EVs because charge time (even “fast” times of 10 or 15 minutes or more) are very much an issue due to having to go somewhere away from home to charge.
You are definitely living in LA LA land. It doesn’t matter how fast the charger is, you can only charge a battery so fast without damaging it. Looking at the traffic patterns at most highway rest stops you would need at least 500 chargers at each stop. Each one needing a 40 Kw electrical supply. The sheer scale of the required electrical supply is huge, duplicating it for every rest stop in the United States is impossible. People would also be there for hours mostly waiting for a charger. It takes less than ten minutes to put 60 gallons of gas into my truck and it can go over 1000 miles on that fuel.
“Each one needing a 40 Kw electrical supply. ”
So we’re going to stop for five hours to charge our 200kWh battery pack?
It’s going to need a lot more than 40kW to be remotely convenient. You’re talking tens of megawatts total demand for a charging station equivalent to a moderately busy gas station.
Maybe they could have a big gas turbine out the back generating power to run the chargers?
I looked at the specs for one of the new plug-in hybrids a few months back, and it didn’t have enough battery capacity to drive to work and back and would still need all night to recharge on 110V.
EVs are NOT MUCH more efficient than ICE vehicles. Yes, the electric motor is efficient, but when you start with the fuel at the power plant and consider power plant efficiency, transmission losses, battery charging and discharging efficiencies, a modern ICE vehicle of comparable size is about equal to an EV.
At least he’s no longer claiming that the automakers have pledged to stop making ICE cars by 2030.
Spoke too soon.
Correct — the overall efficiency ends up nearly the same. Any “savings” from EVs comes from goobermint subsidies & highway taxes not yet being applied to EVs.
Hate to burst your bubble, but you need a few hundred thousand more recharging stations, and about a million and a half more rechargers, to be as convenient as refuling an ICE vehicle.
And if you are only recharging to 80%, then you have a 240 mile effective range, not 300. Worse, when I researched this just before Thanksgiving, the recharging stations were 10 miles off the specific highway I would be traveling, so you lose another 20 miles of your range (and forty-five minutes).
Life is too short to waste iton this nonsense.
More than that, since recharging takes 5 to 10 times as long as refilling.
TFIFY. I had to get that out of the way first.
Funny thing about LI batteries, I have noticed with my camera… I can fire away for hours and the battery indicator is still above 80%. Then it goes from 80% indicator to dead in about half an hour. So you’re telling me that in 30 min, I can get enough charge that will indicate 80% on the dial on the dash, but will only give me 20% (or so) of the range that a full charge will?
I don’t know where you come from, buddy, but where I grew up, that ain’t a “long range”. My F-250 pickup gives me 450 miles on a single fill-up, and haul 3,500 lbs while it’s at it. I have said this before, I will say it again, 450 miles (minimum) between fill-ups, and empty to fully refueled in 10 minutes or less. I will not even consider anything less.
If that were to happen, and if people were actually to use them, you would need much bigger transmission wires, and the power stations to power them. And you would need that “…throughout the world…”, those are your words, not mine, so don’t try to accuse me of constructing a strawman.
In all cases, cite your references, please, I think you’re just making that sh** up.
What, so now it costs $5,000 to replace the battery instead of $20,000? Still unacceptable for your average family. Another deal breaker. But you mentioned only the cost of the battery, to actually get it changed, it takes labor, and from what I have been reading that’s taking more labor, not less. What was the EV that had the equivalent of C-cell LI batteries scattered throughout the vehicle? Wherever the designer could find room for a couple more? Still a deal breaker, but you have mentioned only warranties in number of miles, while the life of the battery can be measured in cycles, and I hear crickets about those. And a cycle is a cycle, whether it’s from 100% (new) capacity down to 0% every time, or whether it’s 80% (it’s only at 80% because he didn’t have the money to install a 220V circuit on the front of his rental house without a garage or even carport, he had to plug into the 110V convenience outlet on the front porch) down to 45% as the daily driver drives it into work, where he finds all the charging stations are occupied so he plugs it into 110V (again) on the side of the building. Does the battery have enough cycles to even get the average person through a year? *crickets*
Nobody has taken a crack at the “cheaper” electricity, because employers have/are going to install charging stations at no cost to the employees, and no charge for the energy consumed… that can continue only because of the BEV’s poor market penetration up to now. There will be some point, and it may be just about there, where every charging station will have a credit card reader, just like you find on a parking meter downtown, that will charge your credit card for the energy you have consumed, and you won’t get any charge without a credit card charge (see what I did there?). And you can bet there will be a premium markup on that power, just because they can. In all likelihood, those who maintain roads will begin to eye those charging stations as a revenue stream (that will be a tax added to the already premium price you’re paying) to help repair roads, as well they should, because after all they won’t be collecting the revenues (that are supposed to repair roads) from the current taxes on gasoline that the BEV isn’t buying.
Let me say it again: NO price difference between a BEV and ICE, 450 miles (minimum) between fill-ups, and empty to fully refueled in 10 minutes or less, NO battery replacement cost, ever! There is no reason for me to consider anything less. If a BEV is ever legislated, I will keep all ICE powered vehicles I happen to own at the time, TYVM.
My little Fiat has a 10.5 gallon tank and I routines get well over 50mpg.
You caught the eye of every politician reading your post when you wrote: “those who maintain roads will begin to eye those charging stations as a revenue stream…” It’s the perfect place to collect a road tax given that all the usage will be by vehicles.
Has it already happened somewhere? California, maybe? Or are they still in the “Let’s get everyone hooked before we drop the hammer,” mode?
You and my brother. He bought an EV and then a plug in hybred due to range problems (can’t remember the rebates he got from the government, bit I think they were in the 8k range), and an electric scooter for around town. He also owns property in Costa Rica which he and the family fly to from Canada. He also complains about how poor he is and wears very old cloths to prove it – and he always has his shopping basket to save packaging – it was imported from Ghana.
“the long range of current EV (pushing 300 miles and more)”
LMFAO. You’ll never see those “calculated” ranges in real world conditions. Someone once pressed a Nissan dealer about the conditions under which the range of a Leaf was “calculated.” The dealer, who surely understood there was something to hide in this respect, refused to provide the information. The buyer then pursued disclosure of the information through a FOIA request, and got it. Here it is:
-Flat dry road
-Zero winds, 20 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit)
-1 person and no luggage in the car
-All windows closed
-No extra drain such as heating, lights, AC, music
-Steady speed of 23 km/h (about 14mph)
That’s FOURTEEN MILES AN HOUR.
Car & Driver real-world “highway speed” testing of a Tesla with a supposed 300+ mile “range” got more like 2/3 of that. So when you’re dependent on “rapid charging” and only getting 80% “charge,” you can take 80% of the 2/3 of “rated” range you’ll still be lucky to get and you’re just over 50% of the “rated” range.
EV range is still a MAJOR issue, period. And still a (non) “solution” looking for a “problem.”
And (EVs are) still a (non) “solution” looking for a “problem.”
What kind of mileage would your average ICE get if driven under those conditions? (Maybe a little faster, have to get out of first gear.)