Black Friday Tesla Fail: Half a Mile Queue to Recharge

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

h/t JoNova, ZeroHedge – Tesla Car Owners were stuck in a massive queue at Kettleman City Supercharger station on Friday, as the facility was overwhelmed by virtue signalling Californians.

‘Bet they wish they had gas!’ Chaos in California as Tesla drivers are stranded for hours in a half-a-mile-long line to charge their cars on Black Friday

  • Shanon Stellini was travelling through Kettleman City on November 30 when she stumbled across around 50 of the electric cars waiting in line for a recharge
  • The stagnant procession reportedly spanned back more than half a mile
  • ‘Bet they wish they had gas’, quipped Stellini’s partner in a video she captured of the backlog – but for the drivers stranded it was no laughing matter
  • The Supercharging station’s 40 charge points was still not enough to meet the overwhelming demand of the Thanksgiving holiday weekend
  • To make matters worse, simultaneous re-charging slows down the speed of for everyone – stalling a process that can already take up to 75 minutes 

By LUKE KENTON FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 03:46 AEDT, 5 December 2019 | UPDATED: 07:25 AEDT, 6 December 2019

Dozens of Tesla drivers in California were forced to wait in an extensive line after what should’ve been a quick stop at a Supercharger station turned into an hours-long ordeal.

Shanon Stellini was travelling through Kettleman City on November 30 when she stumbled across a backlog of around 50 of the electric cars waiting to recharge in a half-mile line outside of at a station near Interstate 5.

‘Bet they wish they had gas’, quipped Stellini’s partner in a video she captured of the chaos – but for the drivers stranded in the stagnant line the issue was certainly no laughing matter.

The Kettleman City Supercharger station – located halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco – is already immensely popular, but even with 40 charging stalls on-site the facility was still overrun by the overwhelming demand that one of the year’s busiest travel times brings.

Read more (includes video): https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7755753/Chaos-California-Tesla-drivers-stranded-hours-half-mile-long-line-charge.html

Clearly the solution is more government handouts for Elon Musk, to build a network of recharging stations so extensive Tesla owners never have to feel embarrassed in front of deplorables driving gas guzzlers.

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331 thoughts on “Black Friday Tesla Fail: Half a Mile Queue to Recharge

    • A lot of gleeful sour grapes gloating by dinosaur loving Neanderthals. EVs are in the early stages. This problem will sort itself out and ICE cars will still be around for a long time. In the early days of cars there weren’t enough gas stations or mechanics and flat tires were common. These same whiners were going on about how we should go back to horses. If you like spewing carbon, then it’s your right. EV owners mostly love these cars, and the cost of ownership is much lower.

      • Neanderthals? Spewing? Hyperbole much?

        BTW – EVs are coal burners! And no, don’t tell me about so called renewables. It takes steel, silicon, copper, carbon, coal, etc. to make those too. Talk about antiquated technology!

        • Neanderthals is correct .. or “Luddite” if you prefer .. or extreme, nonsensical rightwingnut technology hating nutter.

          And no, EVs don’t burn coal. Coal is now down to less than 25% of US electrical energy production this year, and is heading quickly towards an asymptote not far above zero. Nuclear, natural gas, hydro, and renewables account for the vast majority of all electrical energy consumed in the US today.

          The only segment of US energy consumption that is primarily oil-based is transportation .. and within the next 10-20 years that fraction will plummet. Not to zero, but just like coal, it is going down down down.

          • “The only segment of US energy consumption that is primarily oil-based is transportation…”

            Well, this has always been the case. Road transportation is indeed the largest segment of oil consumption in the US, at about 50% of total usage. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/307194/top-oil-consuming-sectors-worldwide/.)

            It will increase in the rest of the world, where EVs are expensive and don’t get government subsidies, eg: India, China. China and India are expected to add 9 -19 MMBD of incremental demand over the next 20 years. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemente/2019/11/10/3-things-to-know-about-opecs-latest-oil-forecast/#78097b545481). China’s propaganda notwithstanding, EV cars in China will in reality be burning coal.

            EV sales plummet when government subsidies go away.

            Yes, coal burning is going down in the USA, but not in the third world. Also, if you’re going to promote EVs, you need to address lithium mining and its effects on the envronment.

          • If someone was claiming in 1776 that human flight was possible and one day we would all be flying wherever we want, he would have been fairly right, just not in some of the details, and not for a long time.

            EV’s will probably become a significant part of our transportation network. But they aren’t today and won’t be next year… or 10 years.

          • Howard,
            I like carbon. Every chance that I get, I burn something. I do own a hybrid, but not to cut down on CO2. I bought it to save money on gasoline. Unlike an EV, I have no restrictions on travel.

          • Balderdash. One hundred years ago EVs competed quite well with ICEs. Why did that cease to be the case shortly after that? Economics. This planet is awash in hydrocarbons, and as long as there is life, it will continue to be awash in hydrocarbons. Heck, for all we know, inorganic chemistry may still be cracking and reforming hydrocarbons miles below where we currently can drill for them. To the extent we may see more EVs, I expect them to be hybrids, like railroad locomotives. (You do know that cellular life runs as an electrochemical battery powered by oxidoreduction fuel cells, don’t you?)

          • Guys how do you think all EV steel and all that high temperature melting alloys are made?? Exclusively from coaking coal…
            Its fine to gloat about how green you feel, but in the end its only a feeling. The hydrocarbons burnt to get the EV product you love is not really any different to anyone one else. All methods of stored energy will have their place as one will never be good for everything.
            Reality is those driving any sort of motorcycle gas or electric as their prodominant personal transport are the most energy efficient and cost so much less in every way no matter how you care to compare it.

          • Duane is another one of those whose hatred towards those who ridicule his virtue signaling knows no bounds.

        • Sure, and why not? It could fairly easily be billed automatically, by vehicle weight, distance and by road used. Britain has a tax on TV, how hard can it be?

          Of course it could be implemented cheaply enough on every vehicle, so I wouldn’t have to pay road tax on my backup generator gas, and farmer’s wives would pay road tax to drive the Escalade to town.

      • And, Howard, you are free to purchase a hybrid or full electric vehicle as your tastes demand, however, forcing all of us onto the grid for transportation is quite another matter. As for cost of ownership, that will be interesting to watch, particularly for hot and cold climates. But, as you say, the internal combustion engine will be with us for quite awhile. Can’t say that I’ve heard of any serious proposal to return the horse as a major form of transportation.

      • Gee, I distinctly remember vast lines of gas guzzling ICE vehicles lining up at gas stations during the 1970s oil embargo. And it wasn’t just a single station – it was at tens of thousands of stations.

        This sounds rather apocryphal – as in probably not as represented in the article. After all, virtually all of the Tesla vehicles have as long as, if not longer, range than ICE vehicles – 210 to 330 miles between full discharge and full charge – roughly a week’s worth of driving for the average auto owner (12,000 to 15,000 miles per year). And every Tesla owner can simply plug into a standard 220 v outlet for a “slow charge” that takes all night. Or install a fast charger at their home that charges in just a couple of hours.

        For all the “virtue signalling” of the self-important technology haters here at WUWT, Tesla is one of the most successful auto manufacturers in the world, and has literally taken over the premium sedan market, outselling all of the Euro makers of ICE-powered premium sedans COMBINED. And now Tesla is moving into the SUV and CUV and light pickup truck markets too.

        And of course all the EV haters here still have no argument whatsoever to offer to the following true fact: the cost of a week’s “fillup” by a Tesla is roughly $6 to $8 – as compared to $30 to $40 for any comparable sized ICE. And on top of that, maintenance for EVs is but a tiny fraction of the cost for ICEs – with no ICE engine to wear out, or tune up, or replace, and no transmission to fix or replace. Battery replacements are a once in a decade affair, and still cost less than replacement of either an ICE engine or automatic transmission.

        • As I recall, the gas lines were due to a combination of the OPEC oil embargo and U.S. regulations that interfered with distribution to those stations. In this case it’s the lack of recharge stations and the technology used by EV that require much longer turn-around times.

          So let’s let the market decide. Remove EV subsidies and if they’re better than ICE, for the reasons you mention, then people will switch over.

        • Funny, I don’t remember these long lines at gas stations, and I was actually alive in the 70’s, although pretty young.

          I hear it was mostly a California thing. Seems it still is.

        • Duane,
          I have never owned an ICE vehicle that got less than 400 miles per tank of gas. My first car was a used 1967 Chrysler Newport Custom. I have also never been in a long line for gas, not even during Hurricane Rita.

          • Duane has no idea what he is talking about.
            Like nearly everything he says, his post is nearly factless.
            Just a melange of made up crap, outright lies, some half truths, and a generous ladling of hateful bile over all.

          • The faceless one is you Nicholas.

            Everyone who drove a car or truck in the 1970s remembers the long gas lines during the oil embargo – and the national 55 mph speed limit imposed for purposes of stretching oil supplies.

            Very few ICE vehicle go 400 miles between fillups. The typical gas tank on mid size sedans and CUVs has but a 14-16 gal tank, on only a fool runs it empty, less than 3-4 gal on board, meaning only 12-13. gal burned between fillups. The average vehicle gets but 20-24 mpg, less in town driving. So roughly 250-275 miles between fillups for most drivers.

          • 1) I was alive and remember the 70s (remember alternate days for filling up? I do). The long gas lines where not as prevalent as you claim. Perhaps in the big cities, but out in the vast ‘burbs and rural heartland, not so much.

            2) “on only a fool runs it empty” the same holds true for an EV. So while you whittle down the ICE range to only 3/4th of the state range, you need to do the same for the EVs. Hence your 210 to 330 becomes 150 to 245 or so which is still less than the lower end of your range estimate of 250 for most ICE drivers. Face facts, Duane, EVs do not have as big a range as ICE. period. Don’t believe me, take an EV with a full charge and a comparable ICE with a full tank and send them on a trip cross country. Which one do you think will run out of fuel first (IE need a fill up or a charge)? be honest because we’ll all know if you try to lie about the answer.

          • @ Duane, my one-ton pickup has a 32-gallon tank and a 510-mile range, although I typically refill after about 350 miles of driving. It refills at a rate of 90 miles of range per minute at the pump.

            My EV has a 24 kWh battery range is 60 to 95 miles. But I recharge at 20%, meaning the real world range is 50 to 80 miles, and averages 67 miles on a year-’round basis. It refills at 240v/14A, which takes 6 to 6-1/2 hours to fill up from about 20% state of charge, adding roughly 0.6 miles of range per minute at the plug.

            Past the high cost and relatively low energy density of the batteries, long charge times are one of the EV show stoppers in the mainstream market. Even a Tesla “supercharger” adds no more than 6 miles of range per minute, and often quite a bit less if there are multiple cars at a charging station.

        • The only reason I dislike EVs is because of the government subsidies. End all the government subsidies and I’ll become indifferent to EVs.

          • Indifference is even worse to the true believer. Opposition can be written of as ‘in the pay of Big Oil’, but it’s far harder to imagine the Oil industry paying people to not care.

            ~¿~

          • Isn’t the tax break on a Tesla a tax credit? If so, then to be fair, that can’t be called a “subsidy” because the buyer is just being allowed to keep more of his own money.

            Unless you see ALL money as belonging to the government, and it deciding on how much you get to keep.

          • The income tax credit that the car buyers get, as you point out, technically isn’t a subsidy (BTW that incentive is going away for Tesla going forward, since they passed the 200,000 car threshold) but it is government giving Tesla a financial benefit (by making their cars “cheaper” to buy for consumers it makes the cars more competitive that they otherwise would be – meaning more sales that they otherwise would get. It’s no surprise that everywhere that such credits have gone away, EV sales have plummeted).

            But that’s not the only way government has put it’s weight on the scale for EVs in general and Tesla in particular. For example, there’s the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) program in California (which netted Tesla $52.3 million in the 3rd quarter of 2018 according to Tesla’s own 10-Q filing), Not to mention the subsidies and tax incentives Nevada provided to get Tesla to build it’s battery factory in that state ($1.3 billion in benefits including $195 million in transferable tax credits, which the automaker could sell for upfront cash) – and that’s just some of the government assistance Tesla has benefited from here in the states, foreign governments have also provided billions in assistance to EVs (with Tesla claiming a piece of that pie as well).

            so quibble over the word “subsidy” all you want, without government assistance, Tesla would not be able to survive (those few times Tesla has posted a “profit” would have been deep in the red without all that government largess and the rest of the time when Tesla’s been in the red, that red would have been much darker in color without all the government assistance).

          • Those subsidies are massive. In California last year, you literally got $10,000 in your pocket for buying a $30k car. And that’s just for a plug-in hybrid.
            $7500 Federal tax credit, plus $1500 state tax credit, plus $800 from PG&E, plus carpool lane access for four years, which has gotta be worth $200.
            Been there, done that, cashed the checks.

        • <

          And every Tesla owner can simply plug into a standard 220 v outlet for a “slow charge” that takes all night. Or install a fast charger at their home that charges in just a couple of hours.

          You obviously live the ‘American dream” in a ranch style house with a picket fence and a garage.
          Some do not even have off-street parking, or live in apartments with no power to charge a hundred cars. Even some subdivisions may need complete re-cabling. Then all that extra power has to come from somewhere..
          You aren’t an engineer are you.

        • You do NOT know what you are talking about.
          A typical ICE vehicle can go 400+ miles between fillups. And it can fill up in 5 minutes.
          EV’s will be able to do that when we switch to pre-charged cartride EV power.

          The problem with home charging: even in new neighborhoods, the local transformer only supports TWO chargers per block. A very costly infrastructure upgrade is required to get beyond that.

          Yes, we’ll get to EV’s for cars, but it is going to take quite a while.

          • My house has a 240v clothes dryer AND an electric stove. Pretty sure our neighbors have them too.

            Unlike when running an ore crusher or a hammermill at our house, we can vary the draw on our Tesla from 5 amps to 40 amps on 240v, Or charge from an ordinary 1500w household plug.

          • What happens when every home in the neighborhood tries to charge their EVs at the same time and also is running the AC and cooking dinner.
            If you believe that there will be no need to improve the electric infrastructure of the whole country in order to support EV’s, you just haven’t been paying attention.

        • I don’t hate EVs although as an Australian who travels long distances they are still pretty impractical for me. However I really, really, REALLY hate EV subsidies. If the cars are so great, pay your own way.

      • The only reason why cost of ownership appears to be lower is because EV’s are heavily subsidized.

        PS: It really is interesting how much hate EV owners have towards the rest of us. It’s almost as if they are trying to compensate for the guilt they are feeling.

      • Howard, it’s physics not gloating. After decades of EV R&D, subsidies and promotion the technology is better but nowhere near close enough to challenge the ICE. Take away the subsidies, which are generated by the fossil fuel economy btw, and EVs would collapse overnight.

        • Indeed, everywhere where subsidies and tax credits have been lowered/eliminated have seen a similar drop in EV sales. without OPM, EVs don’t sell.

      • EVs do not scale. A Tesla supercharge station can charge 3 car in 2 hours. A gas pump conservatively can service 20 cars in the same time period. A factor of 6:1. A few EVs can be recharged without forming a queue but when the number reaches the
        California threshold then the number of recharge points has to grow. You have to replace your typical corner gas station with a small parking lot. And the power required to meet the demand at that recharge site is industrial scale. So until that magic battery technology is developed that can charge a 100kw battery in microseconds off a 9v cell the logistics of a pure EV fleet are insurmountable. As they say in military “amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.”

        And there are more dinosaur species existing today then during the Mesozoic Era.

        • One ‘supercharger’ can add 900 miles of range per hour, so it can keep at least 15 cars on the road at 60 MPH beyond their basic range.

          A gas pump can do more, but you probably can’t put up 40 gas pumps without some attendants, while going from 40 to 80 charger stalls doesn’t add staff.

          Mcdonalds’ francisees can add the capability to recharge cars any number of cars without adding a single employee.

          • In my region, Sheetz gas stations have been big adopters of the Supercharger, with little or no loss in parking, depending on their setup. This encourages retail & food sales within the store without losing a customer to BEV.

          • I don’t where you get that number. It takes 40 minutes to go from about 25% to 80% charge. If one supercharger could do 15 cars an hour there would have been no half Mike long queue. You need to rethink your comment.

          • “you probably can’t put up 40 gas pumps without some attendants”

            Sure can. I don’t know about the US but unmanned filling stations are common in e. g. Europe.

          • tty,
            Attendants are only required in states like NJ where the law does require attendants to pump gas where I live. It is the gasoline retailers association that lobbies to keep attendants so they do not get put out of business by large gas stations. I was in Pensylvania several weeks ago waiting about 10 seconds for an attendant when my wife reminded me I need to pump my own gas.
            It is just another lie.

          • In NYC we all fill our own tanks, with few exceptions. It usually takes longer to pay for the gas than to pump it.

          • (Unattended retail fuel sales to the public aren’t allowed in our part of Canada due to fire regulations.)

          • Alberta fire code requires at least one attendant per each 12 retail pump nozzles, even at a self-serve station. Commercial card-locks don’t have this requirement.

          • Attendants are only required in states like NJ where the law does require attendants to pump gas where I live

            Currently the only states that don’t let you pump your own gas are NJ and Oregon (both are deep blue states) . the other 48 states all allow you to pump your own gas.

          • Oh, you think I meant they couodn’t have Self-Serve.

            No, I meant they couldn’t have self-serve without any staff at all. Commercial card-locks are allowed, but not retail.

            The legal limit in Alberta is no more than 12 self- serve pumps per employee.

          • A “supercharger” adds no more than 6 miles of range per minute of charging. My 1 ton diesel truck adds 90 miles per minute at the pump, and the average small car adds 140-150 miles a minute at the pump. Slow charge times are the long-term Achilles Heel of EVs.

      • Ev’s are in the early stage….Ev’s are 100 years old. They were beat out my better technology. Believe it or not Telsa didn’t invent the electric vehicle. Sorry to break your heart.

      • Howard

        According to the 2019 unisef report, 40+ thousand underage children are working in Congolese cobalt mines, just so you can enjoy your EV 😐.. According to a bbc news report 60% of all cobalt is mined in DRC..

        When will you be sending your children or other family members to the mines, so I can enjoy my ev??

        • Both child labour and slavery are illegal in the Congo.

          And cobalt is mined in a lot of other places, and used for a lot of other things, and has been, for a long time.

          Like maybe turbine blades in aircraft or generating stations, or some turbochargers. Or in speaker magnets, or the batteries in the device I’m using to type this.

      • “EVs are in the early stages. ”

        Rubbish. BEVs were invented before the 1886 invention of the ICE powered automobile. They were developed concurrently with IPAs in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Before the Great War, BEVs were as many as a third of the vehicles on the road. They were very popular with women because they did not have to be crank started and they were far cleaner and quieter. Mrs Henry Ford drove a BEV, so did my great-grandmother.

        Sources: https://www.energy.gov/articles/history-electric-car
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle

        Nor is the case that relevant technological development ceased. when IPAs ran BEVs off the road. The limiting factor in BEV popularity has always been the battery. BEVs are inherently less costly that IPAs and always have been except for the batteries.

        Will there be enough advancement in battery technology to close the cost gap?

        I will take the under.

        https://www.technologyreview.com/s/534866/why-we-dont-have-battery-breakthroughs/

        • “Will there be enough advancement in battery technology to close the cost gap?”

          No. Batteries will, slowly, become somewhat better, but never to the point of competing with gasoline in power density.’

          Why? Because there simply is no element with enough valence electrons in the Universe. Check it out for yourself, there simply isn’t anything better than Lithium.

          • The only element that could in this century is a radio active element. But there ain’t a hope in hell any government would allow that sort of power into the public domain. The tax money lost to government and private enterprise from no requirement to recharge/refill for the life of the vehicle, even two 🤔 would gaurantee there would be a terrorist or environmental line towed that would mean not even a chance of daylight on this initiative.

          • Most of the advancement will be in charging time, durability, and cost. But yes, power density is not increasing. But once recharge times are short enough, who will care?

            The IC piston engine drivetrain is getting ludicrously complicated, so possibly range extending turbines or fuel cell hybrids and solar PV on cars will be another direction things could go.

        • The first pedestrian casualty in car accident was caused by electric car.
          Silence cars kill people. They need to be banned immediately!

      • Battery powered autos outnumbered their gasoline equivalents in the early years of transportation in the US and hence are the ones that deserve the pejorative moniker.

      • The biggest problem that I see is that the Congo just doesn’t have enough children to mine the cobalt for your “eco” vehicle.

        Think about that while you’re opening your Christmas presents.

        • Yeah… all the cobalt is mined by children, because they’re stronger than a Cat 797 haul truck.

          But children are pretty good at painting little Christmas decorations and trinkets, as are political prisoners.

          • The article I read described a young girl finding a lump of copper-cobalt ore and selling it to a Chinese trader for a few cents, presumably to be used to make a Cell phone or laptop battery.

            The illegality of child labour in Congo, grinding rural poverty, and allegations of slavery and forced labour and poor treatment were also mentioned.

            I’ve read similar things about chocolate, prawns, gold, diamonds, fruit and vegetables, Chinese goods (especially Chrismas decorations and handiwork items), textiles, and footwear.

            I don’t have to give up everything because it might just possibly be indistinguishable from something that could have been sourced from bad people.

          • Not interested in that particular false dichotomy. The choice is not ‘electric cars + child slavery’, vs. ‘gasoline cars’.

            Some Quebec oil for gasoline comes from Algeria for instance, and probably not every child there has a wonderful life either. But like the DRC, it would likely be worse without the foreign income from trade.

            The reports I’ve seen date to back in 2012 and are mostly anecdotal. Child labour was and is illegal in the DRC.

            I have zero problem with artisanal miners’ cobalt and copper, or Indian ship breakers’ steel ending up in my garage, or with a poor child picking up valuable rocks or empty beer cans or tree nuts and exchanging them for food and clothing money.

            But like you, I don’t want orphaned children to have to do dangerous work to survive, so I support a number of organizations that work at exposing and stopping their exploitation and providing alternatives. Amnesty International is not currently one of them. Perhaps it should be, perhaps not.

          • You are moving the goal posts, and it hasn’t gone unnoticed. You claimed incredulity at the idea that children are used to mine cobalt. When shown evidence that they do, you now shift to a “probably not every child there has a wonderful life” equivalency. We’re not talking about simply “not having a wonderful life” we’re specifically talking about child exploitation in a dangerous industry (all to feed the desire of those like you to signal your virtue with OPM). Something you claim to care about while simultaneously brushing it aside.

          • There is some good information about artisanal mining on iisd.org that explains why I don’t worry about the issue. The child labour to cobalt to electric car is a pretty thin connection, and so what? The children don’t drive the trucks.

            I use my own money to blast by you on the highway, and I don’t care an Alberta dirtlump what you think of what I drive.

          • There is some good information about artisanal mining on iisd.org that explains the issues. The child labour to cobalt to electric car is a pretty thin connection, the jewelry connection is a lot stronger.

            And I use my own money to blast by you on the highway, and I don’t care an Alberta prairie dirtlump what you think of what I drive.

          • And I use my own money …

            Keep lying to yourself, because that’s the only one you’re fooling. You bought a government subsidized EV that means it wasn’t just *your* money you used but *other peoples* as well. If there was no government assistance that EV would have cost you a hell of a lot more than it did. When you can claim to have paid the FULL (no government assistance) price for a EV than and only then do you get to claim it was all your own money that went to buying it until them such claims are flat out lies.

      • Lets see how far you go in zero weather with an EV. You could keep a little charcoal heater going for warmth, oh wait———carbon monoxide would get you! Horses would be the ticket. Oh wait, all that horse shit!!. Well, we could convert to Amish, problem solved!.

      • EVs are in the early stages

        EVs *pre-date* the invention of the ICE car. If it takes 100+ years to only get as far as “the early stages” I’d hate to see how long it will take before it’s considered “mature”. (and, BTW, there are reasons ICE cars dominated despite EVs being on the market first. Most of those reasons still hold true today hence why EVs continue to make up such a miniscule percentage of the market *despite* massive government support).

        EV owners mostly love these cars

        Yeah, and ICE owners mostly love their cars. so what? What owners of any particular car love is not an excuse to force everyone else to buy only what you want them to buy or for government to subsidize your preferred choice.

        • We got a quote on replacing the engine in a Focus, $9,000. There’s no free lunch, cars are expensive to own.

          I expect our Model 3 to rust before the traction battery goes, by then there will be rebuilts.

      • Howard: when electric car owners start paying their fair share of the road taxes now being paid by ICE car owners through gasoline taxes, and when you don’t hit the same taxpayers with the subsidies handed out on the purchase price of an EV, you can start gloating. Until then, please shut up.

        • Gasoline taxes don’t pay the entire cost of building and maintaining our roads. They’re a common good, property of the Crown, like the oil, the coal, and the gas.

          Road work is largely funded by property tax and Crown Royalties. Excise Taxes and GST don’t necessarily go to pay for roads, and the Orphan Well Fund and other cleanups are partly paid for out of income taxes.

          It’s not as simple as you. Think

  1. Imagine if every vehicle was electric 😐 Waiting 75 for a charge is just silly.

    To make matters worse, simultaneous re-charging slows down the speed of for everyone – stalling a process that can already take up to 75 minutes

    • This is not all bad news for the electric vehicle market. It shows there has been high demand, and the supply of rechargers hasn’t kept up. When the supply has caught up, a recharge will only take 75 minutes.
      Uh oh.
      It’s all bad news.

      • Ummm… not exactly. The newer Tesla chargers will have a battery pack on site and can add enough range in about 15 minutes to get to the next charger (without tripping out a power plant).

        I don’t think that site was typical, but obviously more on-site storage and charger capacity is needed in some areas. I’d still rather wait a half hour for a $10 charge a few times a year, than wait 5 minutes for a $50 fill every week.

        • It’s $10…at the moment, for now. Wait until gas powered cars are forced off the roads, where will Govn’t get the lost revenue from? EV’s! You’ll be paying $50 per charge pretty soon I would say.

          • The Great Left State of Washington – that place north of Oregon — is into its second year of investigating how to charge (no pun intended) EVs for their share of the highway system. As the number of EVs increases so shall costs be attributed. Washington’s dictionary does not have the word “tax” so expect these to be call “fees.”

          • Easy…
            Mandatory annual “Battery Check” (like the Smog Check) and gather miles driven from the CPU. Then divide the mileage by 12 and send out a monthly per mile bill for the prior year.

          • “Bryan A December 7, 2019 at 10:59 pm”

            EV’s will be “connected”, so easy to “track” and tax.

          • Road tax here is only 23 cents a litre, so at 6 km a litre on a 3,000 kg vehicle that’s 4 cents a km now, abuit $1000 a year.

            There’s a lot of tax, sure, but the company that makes the gas doesn’t do that for free, so even without road tax, gasoline would cost more then electric.

            But I want better roads, and they barely tar the cracks now so it would have to be more than $1000 a year.

          • I’m pretty sure that someone in government has a spreadsheet with that all worked out.

            Looking at Canadian government projections on the Energy Board website, they don’t really expect a complete transition to electric vehicles to ever happen.

            I expect almost every vehicle to have a battery, probably many, if not most, will have a range extender that consumes a fuel.

        • Right now it costs about $30 to charge a Tesla at a Tesla Supercharging station which charges $0.28/kilowatt hour and it takes over an hour. Musk isn’t giving away the power at cost. Many of the more crowded stations here limit people to 45 minutes in the charging stall which means you get about half a charge. No idea where this $10 and 15 minutes is coming from. A 15 minute charge will get you enough “juice” to wait in line at the next charging station, provided there is one within range on Interstate 5 in the rural central valley.

          • Just charge at home .. all it takes is a 220 v fast chargers, available for less than $600 at Amazon, and you can top off an average daily drive in less than an hour, and completely recharge a fully discharged battery overnight, for a net cost of about $6 to $8 if your electrical service is selling power at about $.11 to $.12 a KWH as is typical across the USA, as compared to the typical $30 to $40 to top off a typical sedan/CVU at the gas station.

          • Duane, while I agree with charging at home, I think you are missing a couple of issues here.
            (1) These drivers were out & about, shopping, visiting family & friends, etc. Many were likely not within range of their garage.
            (2) Many drivers (of any vehicle type, in any location, of any income level) do not have a garage. Yes, they could rely on Superchargers and such, but that is inherently less convenient (and potentially more dangerous) than ICE.

            I do not have any really good engineering solutions to either of those issues. “Plan ahead better” is not a good enough solution when dealing with the general public. Maybe Smart Summon for those in line? A single attendant with cloud access to the vehicles in line, including access only to their Smart Summon and to their charge ports, could help this situation on heavy traffic days (I’m talking the very few times this actually occurs).

          • By the way Duane, in contrast to gasoline you lose part of the power to internal resistance both on charging and discharging. If you charge very slowly and do not discharge deeply you may only lose 10% or so, but with fast charging the loss can be as much as 50%, with active cooling of the battery pack included.

        • The problem had nothing to do with how much power the station as a whole was able to deliver. It had to do with how long it took to charge individual cars.
          Even if a massive battery pack was able to shave a couple minutes off of the charging time, that still wouldn’t have solved the basic problem. (And lets not get into just how expensive that battery pack would be and how much it would cost to replace it every couple of years.

          • It is not a problem at all if the owner charges at home, which is what most owners do.

            All it takes is a 220 volt outlet in the garage – which most homes and condos have already installed – and a 220-v battery charger, available for purchase at Amazon for less than $600. Will top off the average daily commute in under an hour, fully charge a fully discharged battery overnight.

            No big freaking deal.

          • and you have lost electricity at your home due to green madness for a couple of days.

            The electrical utilities are bankrupt or worse are all government owned and the government has run out of money.

            This will end when either it gets cold or the consequences of forced spending money on green stuff that does not work shuts down our economy.

          • Duane, you are ignoring the point. Your solution is only viable for people who can park in their garage overnight and travel within the range of a single charge.

            It is useless for
            -Anyone without a garage. This is most people in a townhome or apartment.
            -Anyone who cannot modify their garage’s electrical system. This includes essentially all apartments
            -Anyone who for any reason cannot park their car in their garage (ie; every family with 3 cars, such as most of middle America’s teenages), and
            -Anyone who wishes to leave their city and/or region for any reason.

            You are willfully ignoring the facts that your solution is impractical or impossible for the VAST majority of Americans.

          • It is not a problem at all if the owner charges at home, which is what most owners do

            That assumes the owner lives in a single family dwelling where they can charge their car at home. For a large percentage of the populace (who live in apartments) that is simple not an option.

            All it takes is a 220 volt outlet in the garage

            and even of the percentage of the population that do live in single family dwellings, a good size percentage of them do not have garages. so you are taking a portion of the populace (easily less than half) as being representative of the whole as your solution. Yeah, that’s not gonna work, Duane.

            No big freaking deal.

            yeah, no big freaking deal for the people who live in single family homes with garages. But for everyone else (over 50% of the populace) who don’t live in single family homes with garages, it is a big freaking deal.

          • Duane, it’s a big freaking deal if you don’t have a garage, which is the case for most people in this country.

          • My garage doesn’t have 220V power. The cost of having that brought it would be quite high. How much current are we talking this will use. Will this limit the available current for my household? Fortunately my house is fairly new and has a 100A service. Many older houses do not have that much available.

          • Installation of a 240V line will run the gamut depending on your house. Generally, owners report a few hundred to $1200 varying by location and needs. You can expect to draw up to near 40A, depending on the hardware, with the most common recommendation being a 50A breaker and NEMA 14-50 outlet.

      • A standard 480 V charger will deliver about 170 miles of Tesla range in 30 minutes.

        Most owners do well to buy and use a 220 v “level 2” charger at their home (cost less than $600 on Amazon), which delivers a full charge from fully discharged battery overnight. Or it can top off an average day’s drive (less than 40 miles for most people) in just an hour or so.

        And while their electric bill will increase, their weekly gas bill will disappear entirely, for a huge net savings in driving costs. About $6 to $8 vs. $30 to $40 a week, 52 weeks a year, 15K miles a year.

        • Duane, we must remember that some of that “cost savings” goes by another term: “tax evasion”. Electric driving should still be paying road taxes. These are collected (per my understanding) from Superchargers, but not from home,l charging. To be fair (re: road taxes), BEV drivers should probably have to report annual mileage and pay through some other tax pipeline.

          • In our municipality they charge propery tax for street and alley maintenance – whether you drive around all day or never leave the house.

            I think they should charge for road use and the money should go to pay for the road you drive on. The fuel tax system is about a hundred years old and showing its vacuum tube era heritage.

        • Driving a Toyota Prius Prime and plug it into our normal household outlet for an additional 25 miles a day.
          That gives me a 640-mile total range, a number that includes 25 miles of all-electric range (at 133 MPGe), plus 615 miles of range from its gas-electric hybrid powertrain that’s rated at a combined city/highway fuel economy of 54 mpg. I’m Happy, happy, happy !!
          BTW I bought this Top of the line model ($33,000) with a fantastic discount (8k) from someone who was in a rush to join the Tesla cult. God bless him.

        • I asked Google, and it said that the EPA rated the 2017 Tesla Model S at 3.096 mi./Wh. 170 mi/3.096 = 54.91 KWh.

          “Currently available DC fast chargers require inputs of 480+ volts and 100+ amps (50-60 kW) and can produce a full charge for an EV with a 100-mile range battery in slightly more than 30 minutes (178 miles of electric drive per hour of charging).”
          https://calevip.org/electric-vehicle-charging-101

          An hour is more like it.

          • Forty charge points at 480 V and 100+ A means something like 2,000-2,500 kW which means a new high voltage line, a largish transformer and a major installation for AC/DC conversion. “Electric filler stations” are going to be very expensive, particularily when there is no city or major industrial plant nearby.

          • Tesla uses a battery at its new 250 KW V3 sites so they don’t ever draw the full 1.5 MW. The Model 3 can use the full 250 KW, the older Model S batteries can’t.

            As an example of how much power is available, Hut 8 draws 42 megawatts for bitcoin mining at their site here, Tesla could run 875 of the V2 Superchargers off that line to deliver 250,000 km of driving range per hour. If the chargers are 125 KM apart, something like 2,000 vehicles an hour, with 100 MWh of onsite battery storage and solar panels they could do double that at peak times.

            But there’s only about a dozen Teslas in the area so 873 of those spots would be redundant here.

            We shouldn’t get all ‘Chicken Little’ about EVs melting all the wires and tripping all the breakers any more than Edmonton should declare a Global Warming ‘Climate Emergency’ at minus 20C.

          • What’s the maintenance record and costs for EV, hybrids. Those complicated computers, batteries, dangerous high voltage systems, complicated regeneration braking systems? Seems only high priced dealerships can work on these, or are they maintenance free?

    • car manf are working on just that….planning to go all elec in the near future
      …and not a one of them planning on the infrastructure to support it

      • Volkswagen/Audi is going to make EV batteries in a repurposed factory building near Ingolstadt. They have no idea whether their sprinkler system is strong enough for the increased fire hazard.

        • I do not think any amount of water will help with a lithium battery fire.
          When cars catch on fire, my understanding is they do not even try to put out the fire.

          • Volunteer firey here. We will try and extinguish a non-electric vehicle, but for electric vehicles it’s essentially call the Hazmat team in and in the meantime try and protect nearby objects, and keeping the road cool enough so it doesn’t melt.

          • Fire suppression usually involves trying to separate the fuel from the oxygen.
            The only way to put out a battery fire is to cool it down enough so that combustion stops.
            Liquid nitrogen might have a chance.

          • Powdered teflon might work. Of course you’d likely get some free fluoride gas which cause additional problems.

          • Latitude, you posted a very similar comment back in August, but you have yet to provide any data to back up this insinuation.

            From the discussion in August:
            https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/21/walmart-suing-tesla/

            “How many Teslas have self-ignited? Has there been a recall? I heard of the one in China self-igniting, but I also have NO trust of any reports from China, because there is no way to know what modifications or hacks they had made to the vehicle hardware or software.

            We should not forget over 40 BMWs did self-ignite, promptly a million-vehicle recall. And aren’t high-end manufacturers (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.) notorious for self-immolation of their cars?
            https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/business/bmw-recall-fire.html

          • Latitude, you posted a very similar comment back in August, but you have yet to provide any data to back up this insinuation.

            Chinese electric car maker NIO (just this past year) recalled more than a quarter of all its ES8 all-electric SUVs sold thus far due to a risk of overheating and spontaneous combustion

            Earlier this year Tesla launched a probe into self-igniting Shanghai car. But just as you don’t trust China (for good reason) I don’t trust Elon Musk to be entirely truthful.

            And the Shanghai car isn’t the only one to “spontaneously” catch fire. There was one in Canada
            https://business.financialpost.com/business-insider/tesla-catches-fire-while-sitting-in-a-toronto-garage
            as well as a few other places (tty mentioned one in Norway, there was also one in San Francisco and those just from a quick google).

            Bottom line, while it doesn’t happen as frequently as you think Latitudes post might imply, it does happen as the Shanghai, Norway, Canada, and California incidents can attest.

          • Thanks for the replies. My initial search found more hype than info on actual spontaneous fires. I found a couple of interesting lists:

            https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/11/a-list-of-tesla-car-fires-since-2013/

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents

            I had to filter through to find those that were non-accidents (and I have strong doubts that the Chinese fires were spontaneous). It sounds like a relatively small number, thankfully, that generate more press than perhaps warranted, but that does not alleviate my concerns. Most of the fires appear to occur after accidents or during / immediately following considerable strain on the system. My bigger concern is the spontaneous, while-driving, and charging fires, moreso than accidents. There was a driver in LA waved over by pedestrians who said they saw smoke… when the driver got out, the battery appeared to ignite. And I did find one garage fire in Pittsburgh… that again caught fire during investigation. And like the one charging in Norway, a very similar event in Belgium.

            I am no stranger to vehicle fire, I made the local news decades ago with my sibs as we and the old man watched the Gray Monster van burn from one end to the other like a large, sad cigar.

            BMW had to recall to fix their issue, while Tesla has apparently pushed several software updates to better monitor battery health & charging status. And it sounds like Tesla made some rather significant physical changes to the battery pack a few years ago to better protect from road debris, etc. I am not yet convinced that Tesla’s pose an inherently greater risk of fire, even in the event of an accident, though one thing does seem clear:
            Once that fire starts… it’s o-vah… And I would not want marshmallows anywhere near, yuck city.

        • Nope. They didn’t need to. A guy with a single pump could service dozens of cars a day, and because of the value and efficiency of gasoline make a decent profit.

          A guy with a single Tesla supercharger would be lucky to do A dozen cars a day.And unless he charged a lot more then average he’d never pay the damn thing off.

          • A guy could operate a thousand of them, because you don’t have to maintain fire extinguishers, spill containment, leak monitorung, pumps, meters, underground tanks, deliveries, water condensation checks.

            Probably the connecter ends and contacters do wear out and every 5 years the lines between the stalls have to be repainted.

      • “car manf are working on just that….planning to go all elec in the near future”

        More accurately, they are planning to go all-electriFIED. I.e., to go mostly hybrid, especially low-cost “mild-hybrid.” They aren’t planning to go all-BEV (battery electric vehicle).

    • “simultaneous re-charging slows down the speed of for everyone”

      In other words, adding more recharging stations won’t help.

      • MarkW
        I think you need to do some investigations into Tesla cars and charging. You have a number of popular misconstruction of the real world in this area. I understand, I repeated the same vocalizations two years ago. I singled you out because I don’t recall you having such a blindside in other issues.
        Until you check in with a tesla owner or get some information from sources other than other misinformed people you’d do well to hold your opinon on them.

        • Bruce, rather than telling someone to “get some information from sources other than…” you would look less like a mindless shill if you simply provided the information you claim they lack. Failing to do so only makes it look like it is you who is uninformed.

          If you want to be taken seriously: name the misconceptions and point people to reliable sources that show up those misconceptions.

          If you don’t want to be taken seriously: claim someone have “a number of misconceptions” (but don’t actually specify what they’re misconceiving) and tell them to go find the “truth” themselves rather than point them to reliable sources (URL links can work wonders here) where they can have their misconceptions straighten out (hint: random Tesla owners are not reliable sources).

    • If Every vehicle were electric, most people would have 240V (or possibly 480V) powered by battery storage and recharged by solar with charging stations in their garages … and live far more limited lives

      • Bryan A, “most people” would need to move out of apartments and/or the city in order to even have their own garage let alone the EV supporting infrastructure you describe.

    • yeah and thats a fast charge???
      75mins and thats without the lineup at best thats a hell of a time addition to a trip
      theymay locate near shops n food outlets but if youre in line you cant wander off,
      and leaving a tesla on charge without supervision after the battery fires? hmm?

      • …leaving a tesla on charge without supervision after the battery fires? hmm?…

        I hear you. Someone needs to get the marshmallows.

      • “leaving a tesla on charge without supervision after the battery fires? hmm?”

        Why not? You can’t do a damn thing about it if it catches fire, except getting burned. I would keep well away from the car while it is charging.

  2. Doesn’t seem to show a great understanding of what peak demand conditions can do. He should know how many cars he’s sold and where and have some idea of the potential extreme conditions. Supposedly they were to address these concerns with deployment of the “mega pack”. I don’t think they are people to trust in transforming the much more complex power grid.

    • Time to form the AEAA (American Electric Automobile Association), which works like AAA except their breakdown trucks include big diesel generators which can give stranded EV drivers enough charge to limp home, or at least as far as the next charging station.

      It would be the ultimate irony if in order to support enough charging stations to keep EV drivers from running flat, that each station would include its own high capacity diesel generator.

      • Shhh – those electric car owners think that solar panels and wind turbines provide that magical electricity that charges their green vehicles.

      • Here’s something I posted four days ago to the Seeking Alpha financial site, on one of its Tesla threads:
        ————-

        Bosch contends that a re-engineered diesel ICE is greener, all things considered, than a BEV. BEVs are its competition. If I were in charge there I’d assign a team with the task of building, selling, and sarcastically advertising trailers containing diesel generators as BEV accessories.

        They would be called Tesla Tenders and BEV Boosters and, when attached for long trips, would convert BEVs into temporary PHEVs. IOW, they’d extend the range of an owner’s BEV, eliminating range anxiety. They would be easy to tow, being short, shallow, narrow, and lightweight—maybe under 200 pounds (??). (A trailer containing supplemental batteries would be too heavy to be practical.)
        Perhaps they could be profitably sold for under $5000, and maybe even as low $2500 (for a gasoline-powered version) by a company like Honda. It would be a hoot if over 10,000 were sold—which I suspect might be do-able.

        Maybe Big Oil or the Kochs could be persuaded to fund the development of such an item, for fun and profit. For additional deviltry, and for an implicit “dig” at BEVs reliance on fossil fueled electricity, a coal-powered trailer should be offered, using a Stirling engine to drive the generator, and fine-grained, fluid-bedded coal to reduce the smoke to a somewhat tolerable level.

        This tender would have four wheels, be half or more the size of the car, have room for storage or sleeping, and be designed to look like the tender of an old-fashioned steam locomotive. It would have the lonesome, moaning, whoo-whoo whistle of those locomotives, and their clanging bell. It would have their chuff-chuff sound effects too.

        The cost could hopefully be under $10,000—but it would be worth it a hundred times over, for lulz. The owner of a Bolt + Booster (coal-tendered) could challenge a Roadster to a cross-country race, and win, for instance. Other opportunities for social leg-pulling will no doubt occur to me after I post this—and, hopefully, to you too. YouTube videos of the thing in operation, and the outraged sputterings of our green clerisy, would be a barrel of laughs. Just do it, please, someone!

  3. Probably took St. Greta less time to sail across the Atlantic than it did to get thru that line and get recharged.

    But it’s a small price to pay for saving the planet. Bragging rights like that have associated costs, or should have.

  4. According to Wikipedia:

    A Tesla Supercharger is a 480-volt DC fast-charging station built by American vehicle manufacturer Tesla Inc. for their all-electric cars. The Tesla Supercharger network of fast-charging stations was introduced beginning in 2012. As of October 2019 the electric vehicle network consisted of 14,658 individual Supercharger stalls at 1,659 locations worldwide with an additional 115 locations under construction worldwide (64 in the USA)[

    A quick search did not reveal a breakdown of locations or stalls by state. With those numbers, the average Tesla supercharging station has only 9 individual stalls, so the 40-port station named here is a relative monster. Those Tesla owners complaining about the wait times should be grateful the station wasn’t hit with one of the rolling blackouts PG&E imposed to limit fire risk from sparking wires.

    Long charging station wait times will likely become more common as more EVs are taken on the road for holiday travel.

    • Here’s what EV’s can’t do…

      For hurricane Irma…filled up tank…put another full tank in the trunk in cans..

      You can’t get gas on the way out….and you can’t get gas on the way back

      There’s no time to sit at some stupid charging station…and there probably won’t be power anyway

      • “You can’t get gas on the way out….and you can’t get gas on the way back”

        That’s because when electrical power is out, gas stations’ pumps can’t function. That’s why some states require them to have backup generator power, and more states are considering such a requirement.

        • Salute!

          It’s more of a problem for evacuating than that, Roger

          Think about your local neighborhood with a dozen or more EV’s trying to get maximum charge. Do you have a huge power pole or transformer right there? How about the oversized cables compared to present distribution systems?

          Looks to me that for an EV neighborhood, the homes will need large battery backup systems that they charge slowly, using less current when the car is not sucking up the amps for quick recharge.

          I also wonder how much new infrastructure will be required to get all the amps to them.

          Just thinking….

          Gums

          • I am curious about this as well, Gums.
            If we go with the evacuation situation, I think we can safely assume many BEVs are already at 80%, as this is the recommended state, but the rest will be all over the map in terms of state of charge. Those trying to top to 100% will likely all be charging simultaneously, yes, but they are also consuming considerably less current, as input current tapers as state of charge increases; those last 10% can take a little while, hence the “45 minutes to 80%” marketing statements, followed by “hours for full charge” in finer print. Thus, the demand on the utility is lower in total in this not-so hypothetical situation.
            I hear the fears about simultaneous charging quite a bit on WUWT and other places, but I have yet to see any reliable data on whether it is an actual problem. I do not doubt that some upgrades to the electric distribution network are necessary, regardless of BEV adoption. I live in an area that has huge neighborhoods of nothing but all-electric homes (heat pumps, resistance, radiant, baseboard, etc. all mixed together), and I do not hear the screams of freezing neighbors when everyone’s heat is running simultaneously. They also run their electric dryers, presumably many of them run at the same time as each other and while the heat is running. Perhaps this is easier solved than portended on these forums?
            We are all coal here, btw. Reliable, cheap, modern-life-giving, plant-feeding coal.

  5. Simple arithmetic: if it takes ten times longer to refill using electricity than gas, it will take ten times as much area to hold the cars while they are refilling. Rest areas will need to be ten times larger and more area is also needed to for the additional electrical infrastructure.
    Add on the additional area for the windmills and solar cells to supply the charging infrastructure and the country starts to look kinda small.

    • Worse than that, as a gas tank has capacity for far more range than a battery.
      So they simply need to recharge more often.
      This is alleviated by the fact that most owners can recharge at home at night.
      But gas stations are everywhere.
      And I think the time factor is far more than 10x as well.
      In the US, gas pumps are limited to a max of 10 gallons per minute, but most pumps are not as fast as this.
      But some are very fast, and usually to fill a 20 gallon tank a few minutes is all it takes.
      Average range of US vehicles is somewhere around 400 miles.
      At ten gallons a minute and 28 miles per gallon, that is 280 miles in one minute of filling.
      I find references stating that a typical supercharger station can give a model S 170 miles of range in 30 minutes.
      It also says a 80% recharge takes about 40 minutes, and a full recharge on a home 240 volt charger takes 10+ hours.
      I also find sources that claim that the newest superchargers can add 75 miles of range to a long range version of the model 3 in 5 minutes.
      Obviously pulling off the highway and charging a car or filling a tank takes a lot longer than the time involved in the actual pumping or charging, so 75 miles in 5 minutes on a long trip might not be a good way to speed up a long trip. For one thing, is there gonna be a charger in exactly 75 miles?
      Not likely I would think.
      Using the more practical 80% charge figure, and also assuming you can find a pump which pumps at 10 gallons per minute, it seems pretty clear that the difference is far more than 10x in time to refill.
      It is more like 6-15 miles per minute for a Tesla vs 280 miles per minute for a good but not great mileage car at a good pump.
      In more practical terms, using a credit card at the pump, one can stop at a gas station and have the car full and ready for another 400+ miles in the time it takes to buy a soda or use the restroom real quick.

      • “I also find sources that claim that the newest superchargers can add 75 miles of range to a long range version of the model 3 in 5 minutes.”

        And fast charging is bad for the battery.

  6. I would love to know how much CO2 is used in the production of power for these running of these devices compared to a regular car. I’ve never seen a comparison of different vehicles. Can you imagine a working car running like this? Or a truck? Or an ambulance? What does it cost to replace batteries? And how long do the batteries last before they need to be replaced? And how much CO2 and other greenhouse gasses are released in the manufacture of these batteries? How much lithium, cobalt etc is available in mining for batteries and how long will that hold out when everyone is using an electric vehicle? And how much will it costs as it becomes increasingly rare?
    And how much do they cost? A nice one in Australia will cost you about $200,000….or you could buy this Aston Martin for less than that, https://autotraderau-res.cloudinary.com/t_cg_car_l/inventory/2019-12-04/89687673245751/10837775/2017_aston_martin_v8_Used_1.jpg
    It costs more to run, until you take battery life into account and then I would say the differences would be bugger all and depreciation will favour the Aston Martin massively…if these things don’t matter to you then buy a Tesla, you know it makes sense?

    • Bemused Bill- you pointed out just about every failing in electric cars.
      There are a couple of other ones. The ridiculous 100+MPGe converts the enerby in a gallon of gas directly to kilowatt hours-with no losses, not allowance for charge/discharge losses.
      Electric cars top out at around 60mpg actual, competitive with diesel.
      The other EPA bungle has been using miles-per-gallon. Doubling the mileage only makes a real difference if you start from10mpg- a not uncommon figure in the 1960’s. After you get to 30mpg the difference keeps getting gets exponentially smaller. By the time you get to a Toyota Prius, mid 50’s mpg it is just about equivalent to a diesel, or the newer CCI(controlled compression ignition) being used in some newer gasoline engines.

      A well-designed hybrid with diesel or a CCI gas beats all electric in every area except maintainence costs because of oil changes and the greater number of parts to break. But several auto companies have been building auto engines with easily 200,000 mile life-10-20 years of use.

      • “the newer CCI(controlled compression ignition) being used in some newer gasoline engines.”

        The 2020 Mazda 3 models, due for U.S. release very soon, are the only practical ones so far. Test drivers have been positive. E.g.:

        Mazda 3 with Skyactiv-X Engine Achieves 42–54 MPG on Euro Combined Cycle
        The compression-ignition gas engine’s optimistic Euro MPG numbers could still translate to huge EPA estimates in the U.S.
        By ALEXANDER STOKLOSA Car and Driver JUN 5, 2019
        https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27750433/mazda-skyactiv-x-engine-europe-mpg/

        The Mazda 3 equipped with the Skyactiv-X 2.0-liter engine gets 50 mpg according to the optimistic NEDC European combined test cycle. On that governing body’s highway cycle, which benefits the compression-ignition setup even more, the thriftiest Skyactiv-X-equipped Mazda 3 scores 60 mpg. … Plus, the Euro X is backed up by a 24-volt mild-hybrid system that allows for extended engine-off periods when stopped in traffic or at stoplights.

  7. This just demonstrates what a nightmare these long recharge times are from a logistics standpoint.

    How many recharging stations would be needed to handle this peak demand? Don’t forget to factor in the fact that more cars recharging means less power for each individual car.

    That many stations will have to be available all the time, meaning they will be sitting idle most of the time.
    Each station costs the same, regardless of how infrequently it is used.

    • “MarkW December 7, 2019 at 3:01 pm
      This just demonstrates what a nightmare these long recharge times are from a logistics standpoint.”

      In an emergency evacuation situation, many BEV cars would not be charged adequately to cover the distance needed to get away to a safe and spacious-enough-for-refugees location. There’d be multi-mile backups, some impeding other divers.

  8. Mike Jones, in real life you charge just as long as you need to. I have never spent more than fifteen minutes at a charger. That is traveling across the sparse North Arizona highlands, where superchargers are relatively rare.
    Typically five minutes when I need enough to get home. In day to day driving, I charge at night. Maybe two or three times a week.
    Charging the bottom half of the battery pack takes around ten minutes, with that you can go as far as you need most of the time.

    • Bruce ryan

      I was told that not charging your battery fully kills its battery life? It is best to let the battery discharge fully then charge it to maintain the life of the battery. Once your battery is dead, what’s the replacement cost? And can it be recycled, as tesla batteries can not be recycled as far as I’ve read

    • With regular fuel, all of this aggravation to determine how long to charge, where to charge, etc. is moot. Just pull into the next station and fill up.

      So you do a low charge in the summer when AC is needed and and get stuck behind some sort of fatal accident where the police block off the road for a couple of hours. You will sit and cook. As per most people who could afford a Tesla, I never get under 1/4 tank of fuel which is good for a couple hours idling with the AC on.

      You can explain to yourself how great the electric vehicle is. You will never admit the truth of the shortcomings of the vehicle. BTW, I hate that you sucked money from ME through government subsidies to buy that piece of crap and to have a place to charge it. Virtue signaling cities all over the country have installed or allowed installation of charging stations on city property. Don’t see that for regular gas?

      Also note that if the politics of most people that would buy a Tesla comes to pass, what will you do on a HOT or COLD calm cloudy day when the grid is overloaded because of over dependence on their preferred electric production methods of wind and solar? Oh yea, they would use grid connected electric vehicles as the mass storage devices required to maintain grid stability. How would that work out in the above referenced situation when a large percentage of vehicles are on the road? Yep, you would be going nowhere. I would have fuel enough to get where I need to go with my ICE driven vehicle.

      This subsidized insanity is intent on building a society ready for collapse.

        • Agree, with lots more noughts.

          Why don’t the ‘ converted ones ‘ reply in detail to Drake’s message.

          • I’m not going to respond in detail beause there is a search engine called ‘Google’ and Dr. David Mackay already wrote ‘Sustainable Energy Without The Hot Air” to explain the maths of reality to the ever optimistic Greenpeace types.

            In a nutshell, Lihium ion (or any) cells will never reach the mass energy density of a chemical fuel that uses oxygen. But like their inventor’s name, they’re already Goodenough.

    • I looked you are kinda screwed if you own one of these in North Dakota or Northern Minnesota, and if you drive up the West slope of the Rockies from Arizona you are kind screwed again. Somehow trying to make it from Flagstaff to Banding 248 miles and no charging station yes it would not be to comforting to me. Since the Tesla model 300 only has a 215 mile range, adding in that drive is not exactly flat, Oh by the way how far will a 300 do at 75MPG that the speed limit on US interstate 94 it well over 353 mile an not a charging station to be had, add in you could be doing it at -20 F all the way. I crossed North Dakota in that weather many times. It was in a 1985 Chevy Nova which would constantly do 34 mile a gallon, it would keep me warm in the -20 weather and I am not counting wind chill -20 ambient. At those temperatures it would not keep you warm idling. I dove that car to the junk yard at 405,000 miles, when you open up the trunk and can see the ground it time of it to go. You will never get and electric car that will give you the cost per mile that car did for me!

      • look at Maine. 3 stations, one 28 miles from me other 2 100-200 miles by road. if I lived in northern maine closest is in Brewer (the 28 from me) and from northern maine over 200 miles one way.
        meanwhile I can fill my 36 gallon truck (2011 silverado 2500HD LTZ) up in 10 minutes (including inputting mileage/driver id for fleet card) and plow multiple times on that tank.
        fill my personal car (2010 grand marquis limited edition)up every 2 weeks or so.

    • If you aren’t charging to 90% capacity and discharging to 10% capacity you are drastically shortening your battery life.

      • “If you aren’t charging to 90% capacity and discharging to 10% capacity you are drastically shortening your battery life.”

        I’ve read that the opposite is true for lithium batteries—that for longest life 80% should be the max charge and 20$ the lowest.

          • Saying one must charge to 90% (don’t stop charging before this point) and must discharge to 10% (keep using until this point) is very different (perhaps not “opposite”) from one should not normally charge beyond 80% (but can start charging at any point) and one should not discharge below 20% (but can start charging at any point in between). The same agonies to your phone, other small electronics, or any other Li-ion battery-operated device.

    • You are missing the reality of the problem.

      You are organized and have a plan where to stop to get a charge and you are stopping in remote places where there is no line up at the charger.

      The idea is forced EV use, so there will be increased electrical grid load and reduce grid reliability so browns out will be our new reality.

      So now there are hundreds of thousands of people who need to charge their EV in every major city so even if the time to charge to get home might be 15 minutes there may be a line up of an hour to get to the charger.

      In large cities it is not unusual to suddenly get stuck in traffic and to have people who have made a mistake so they do not have sufficient reserve charge to handle get stuck in traffic on cold days or hot days for a hour or two.

      In cold weather EV mileage can be reduced by 30%.

  9. To think I thought a queue of 3 cars ahead of you with 40 minute 80% charges would be a typical long weekend was a reasonable assumption with Bill Shorten’s electric car virtue signalling. I think I was being rather conservative.
    Fast charge they said- we all know that excess heat from fast charging will damage the expensive battery.
    The scenario was a weekend away from Sydney, since, with exemptions for various groups, basically all people in big cities would have to buy electric cars eventually.
    Every 250 km, you would have to do your recharging. 4 times 40 minutes- nearly 3 hours bored waiting and still only 80% charge. How do you think the kids will be behaving by the end of that 3 hours? How about having to do it 200 km down the road? Oh, it becomes night time. Lower range using headlights. Another 3 hours. There will be more time spent charging than driving!
    Now I ask-will you ever go on a weekend or long weekend away in your electric car with or without the kids ever again? Tourism in towns will simply end. As the horror stories spread to work places about the nightmare “holiday” that end to road trips will start far earlier than you would think.
    Delicious irony- people will hear the horror stories and keep their petrol driven cars on the road far longer than they should, knowing that when they are eventually forced to buy an electric car, road trips just end.
    The most disturbing thing is that 48.2% of the voters voted for Bill Shorten’s insane plans that he did not even bother giving a costing for. With the young being brainwashed with green propaganda, 2 more election cycles and we are doomed.

  10. Anyone who can afford a Tesla can afford a second car with a proper energy source, so it’s their own fault for going out in the wrong car.

    • “Anyone who can afford a Tesla can afford a second car with a proper energy source ….”

      Not exactly “anyone”—some buyers have “stretched” to do so; and a Tesla Model 3 can be had for around $45,000 with some options, so it’s not outrageously expensive.

      And some owners don’t have space to park a second car.

      • It was about 50% sarcasm. The buyers of Teslas clearly made a foolish purchasing decision when they were in a position to spend less money for a more practicable vehicle.

  11. These green enviros must really support the mining industry, because just the amount of copper that will be needed to massively expand the distribution grid with minimum 50 KVA transformers everywhere will be a huge expansion. Not to mention all the copper, cobalt and lithium that will be required to expand the EV fleet. I know we have discussed that here for ages, but I have yet to meet the alarmist who says the EV is part of the overall solution to ‘carbon’, and climate change, but then they are protesting all the mining everywhere too that will be required to do this massive expansion.

    This just reinforces my opinion that we need a super efficient ICE micro generator that is built into the EV. Not as big as a Plug In Hybrid ICE engine, but a super light weight 15-20 Kw ICE generator that supplies thermal heat for the cabin heating and keeping the batteries warm, in addition to a modest range extender for a longer trip, or charge your batteries off grid anywhere. Until there is a robust distribution grid that will handle multiple high amp charging on every street, the EV is just a pipe dream for some people that they haven’t even fully thought out.

      • Not really Patrick. While it was a range extended plug-in, with only a 21.1 kWh battery, it had a 2.0 Litre 260 Hp ICE engine that could power the PHEV car even if the battery were stone cold dead. That’s definitely not what I was talking about.

        I am talking about having a mini/micro ICE (maybe 100-200 CC & 20-25 Hp) engine of some type that was only good for supplying a medium charge (15-20 Kw) to a dead EV battery, as well as thermal heat for the cabin and keeping the batteries warm in winter. Something super fuel efficient that doesn’t strand an EV such as this article discusses with the long line ups. A bit of a range extender but mainly an emergency generator and also some way of utilizing the waste heat to keep the batteries and cabin warm in a long 6 month winter. Just a dedicated micro super efficient ICE generator of some type.

        I think this is the future for EV’s in northern cooler climes. The last thing I would want is pure EV…which is essentially a brick in cold weather. Even a 10 Hp Briggs and Stratton in the trunk would be better than nothing, especially if the power was out or you are stuck on the side of the road.

        “the Fisker Karma front-mounted 260-hp, 2.0-liter Ecotec four-cylinder direct-injection turbocharged gasoline engine powers a generator that sends electricity directly to the drive motors.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma

        • “Something super fuel efficient”

          That means a diesel. A four-stroke simply can’t compete with a diesel for fuel efficiency, and no other heat-engine in existance either. However a 20-25 hp diesel simply doesn’t produce enough waste heat for heating the cabin. I had a VW with a 44 hp diesel for a while. It was extremely fuel-efficient and perfectly adequate for a small car thanks to its excellent torque but it was decidedly marginal for heating in winter

          • I have had a lot of VW, both gas and diesel, including the old air cooled VW Bug and Van. Which really had not much direct heat from the engine, so had a separate gasoline heater as probably a lot of people remember. Especially for those that wound up catching fire. Older VW’s never did have that good of cabin heaters in any vehicle, like it wasn’t a priority… not sure why German engineers couldn’t get the heat they needed but was a sore point for a lot of people in northern climes. The newer VW TDI diesels were much better all around and had good cabin heating. My 2006 diesel Passat wagon was one of the best 2 wheel drive vehicles I ever had before it got in an argument with a Moose on the highway. Probably saved my life, being so low a profile that the Moose would up as part of the upper windshield and the roof/sunroof, with me only losing a front tooth.

            There is a lot of excess surplus heat in 44 hp of diesel power. My Millar 400 Amp diesel welder is super fuel efficient and has a lot of heat to shed, not counting the exhaust that could be further tapped for a heat source with some type of heat exchanger. It is a mini 4 cylinder 3024C Caterpillar Diesel rated at 33hp, but being cast iron block and head it is real heavy. Will be tough to get a mini diesel that doesn’t weigh a lot, but my 2008 Jeep 3.0 Mercedes CRD diesel is an aluminum block with cast iron cylinder sleeves, so perhaps things could be made less weight.

            As you know, diesel has almost 25% more energy per gallon than gas, so is why they are much more efficient, including higher compression and a better and hotter burn. I suspect your radiator was cooling the engine much quicker than the heater core could extract any useful heat. I am sure that could be re-engineered to ensure maximum extraction of thermal heat for the intended purpose of heating the cabin and battery pack before going to any radiator for additional cooling.

    • ” we need a super efficient ICE micro generator that is built into the EV. Not as big as a Plug In Hybrid ICE engine, but a super light weight 15-20 Kw ICE generator that supplies thermal heat for the cabin heating and keeping the batteries warm, in addition to a modest range extender for a longer trip, or charge your batteries off grid anywhere.”

      The huge Toyota/Mazda joint-venture factory being built in Alabama will incorporate a tiny rotary engine for that purpose in some of Toyota’s new vehicles. It will always run at its optimum speed, so seal-leakage won’t occur. More:

      Mazda Sheds More Light About The Rotary Engine Revival
      https://www.motor1.com/news/313208/mazda-new-rotary-drivetrain-xsv/
      MAR 12, 2019 at 1:17PM
      BY: CAM VANDERHORST, Contributing Writer
      Mazda has made breakthroughs in rotary technology – and it may return to production soon.

      The Australian motoring publication Drive had a chance to speak with Hirose at the 2019 Geneva Motor Show, where Mazda was celebrating the reveal of their new CX-30. More important than a new crossover, however, was what was revealed about Mazda’s developments in rotary engine technology.

      According to Hirsoe, what was originally intended as a range extender has grown to become a much more versatile powerplant in light of recent technological breakthroughs. He says that the new flexible rotary hybrid powerplant currently in development is so efficient that it could be sold in any market in the world – even markets with notoriously strict emissions regulations in place.

      Hirose went on to describe a setup similar to the Toyota Prius, in which the hybrid drivetrain has the versatility to not only generate electricity, but to actually power the drive wheels when needed. This technology, dubbed XEV, may make an appearance in production cars – at least in Australia, and, we’d imagine, Mazda’s native Japan – within the next few years.

      Mazda range-extended electric car may help the rotary live on
      https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122062_mazda-range-extended-electric-car-may-help-the-rotary-live-on Mar 14, 2019 –

        • Yes, I believe the acronym is XEV, which is a charge only generator, usually using a very small ICE or micro rotary engine like Mazda is going to do as an example. A very high power to weight ratio ICE engine coupled to a generator matching the battery voltage to direct charge the higher voltage DC battery pack. Plus supply thermal heat to the cabin or to the insulated battery pack in winter.

          As compared to BEV and PHEV, indicting just a pure battery source, or a full hybrid that actually supplies power to the wheels from a larger ICE engine. Some of the purists think it is a sin to incorporate any kind of fossil fuelled ICE engine source into a pure BEV. I am amazed that Tesla hasn’t incorporated something like this, even for an option. It just seems like the most common sense to a major problem of not being being able to charge in certain circumstances. Not a full hybrid, but a small range extender that eliminates most range anxiety.

          You could lessen the batteries required by 200-250 hundred pounds that the micro rotary generator would weigh so the car weighs the same, with less range on batteries alone, but then the micro rotary range extender more than makes up for that due to the energy density of fuel. Would solve most real range anxiety and charging off grid anywhere, along with thermal heat. Most trips would still be pure electric charged from the grid, but this is an insurance to ensure you will never be stranded out of juice or frozen into a brick in winter.

          • “You could lessen the batteries required by 200-250 hundred pounds that the micro rotary generator would weigh”

            IIRC, the new Mazda rotary weighs under 100 pounds.

          • The generator or alternator will probably weigh more than the Mazda Rotary engine making the genset package at least a couple hundred pounds or heavier. Depending on the overall size of course, and the higher the RPM of the generator/alternator, the less weight (and smaller) it would be, while the slower the RPM of an engine, usually means more weight. A diesel has the most torque at a lower RPM and better fuel efficiency, but would be heavier than the high power density to weight ratio of a rotary engine on gas. I can see there is still a lot of work to fine tune such a suitable engine and will be a big demand IMO for a super lite weight efficient rotary of some type, (perhaps a diesel) but I don’t know if the engineering works in that scenario. Perhaps some type of turbine generator that is super lite weight and efficient. This is what is required for a longer range EV that doesn’t need the hassle of these charging stations which will get old real quick planning your trip time around finding one of these high capacity chargers and then hoping it is available.

    • Depends on what you’re asking. If you’re talking superchargers, Tesla offered free lifetime supercharging for Model S purchasers and maybe some Model X’s as well, until about 2018 as I recall, so for many owners it’s free. For later cars, Tesla charges .26 per kWh at a supercharger.

      For charging at home, you pay your electricity rate, which for me is about .09 per kWh. For my driving habits, that’s about the same cost as a gasoline engine that gets 95-110 mph depending on the season (winter is hard on mileage).

      • If you factor in how much fuel your subsidies from the government (us) would buy, can you tell us what the equivalent total drive distance in miles (or Ks) would be a brake even between your EV and an equivalent interior capacity (bodies and baggage) regular octane fuel ICE? BTW don’t forget to factor in the battery replacement cost since I figure you would pass that point before the EV will be cheaper to drive than the ICE. Also factor in the standing time at $15.00 an hour for charging when traveling distances in excess of the time needed to fuel the ICE. (I am shooting low using $15.00, the “livable wage” as defined by liberal activists.) I am forgiving your at home charging time, but please use a realistic estimate of the portion of travel that is not just local, i.e. that is vacation or distance travel. If you use the benefit of government or employer subsidized chargers to reduce the standing time, add the value of the subsidies to the ICE fuel cost, just to be fair.

        All of this assumes you are not using an ICE on vacations or long trips. (One vehicle household)

        Please do so for a HOT climate like Phoenix and COLD climate like Minneapolis.

        Just asking. You did a calculation to come up with the 95-110 mp(g) which seems to be GREAT, but what is the reality?

        • I’m not aware of any subsidies associated with driving a Tesla. For a while, purchasers could get a subsidy from the federal government for the capital cost of buying a Tesla – a subsidy that has since expired – but that has nothing to do with driving it after purchasing it. I don’t even know how one would spread the cost of such subsidy over miles driven which would vary so much from one person to the next.

          As far as my calculations, the 95 mpg is about what I get in 40 degree winter temperatures, and the 110 is for summer temperatures. Minneapolis might take some off the winter numbers since it is a lot colder there, but the summers you should be able to get about the same as what I quoted if you drive at reasonable speeds. Driving a gasoline engine, standard sedan I’d be getting maybe 40mpg with my driving habits. I drive conservatively (no speeding) but a realistic number for most anyone that pays electricity rates in the .10 to .12 range typical of about anywhere outside California or the liberal Northeast states is going to be getting well over the equivalent of 75mpg in a Model S, better in a Model 3.

          A Tesla has no problem with hot weather. I get really good mileage in in 90 plus degree weather. Running the AC may take a little off, but not a whole lot.

          Vacations are an insignificant portion of my annual driving – maybe 10% tops – and like I said, it’s free (or at least prepaid with the price of the car). Your $15 wage doesn’t seem to be relevant since few, if any people, are actually foregoing that money, and even if they did the time you save never having to pull into a gas station for daily driving more than compensates for whatever extra time you spend on the occasional road trip.

          You’re also ignoring the lack of oil changes, blown gaskets, transmission repairs, less frequent brake replacement and all the other associated savings relative to a gasoline engine.

          All these things considered, the 90K Tesla S is still an expensive car – maybe the equivalent of a 50K car over a 10 year lifetime. But the Model 3 seems to me to be pretty competitive with gasoline engines for total lifetime costs.

          • “A Tesla has no problem with hot weather.”

            Except when it’s sitting in a garage and its cooling system kicks in to prevent the battery from overheating. This results in “vampire drain.” If such a drain goes on for long enough, say a week, the battery will nearly be exhausted, or be damaged.

          • If it’s sitting in a garage, it can be plugged in, which will prevent exhaustion of the battery. Even an ordinary wall outlet at about 4 miles a minute recharging will take care of that issue.

          • How much fuel tax do you pay, state and local and for the roads you drive on? So yes, Tesla gets continues subsidy. Also in some public areas free charging.

          • The subsidy for driving is the fact that EV owners aren’t paying road use taxes that are built into the price of gas and diesel.
            Other subsidies are things like not having to pay tolls on some toll roads, being allowed to use High Occupancy Lanes even when only one person is in the car, things like that.

          • MarkW, many municipalities have HOV lanes to reward those that cut down on smog. Multiple riders in a single vehicle or no local emissions from a BEV accomplish a similar goal. I would not classify that as a driving subsidy.
            Yes, the Road Taxes issue needs to be tackled, and it is under discussion at various levels of government. To say that taxes are not being paid by BEV drivers is disingenuous at best. Road taxes are paid at Supercharges, general fund taxes are paid through residential utility bills, and some states require a road tax be paid when registering the vehicle to offset future tax evasion while charging.

          • Mark W:

            The subsidies you discuss exist, but they can’t be laid at Tesla’s doorstep. People who use public transportation are heavily subsidized, even when they have to pay a nominal fee to get on a bus, for example. People who drive a 40mpg sedan aren’t paying nearly as much in gas taxes as someone with a 17mpg SUV.

            The kind of subsidies you mention are the kind that so infest our tax code that virtually every single taxpayer gets one or more subsidies (child tax credit, home mortgage deduction, student loan interest deduction).

      • Here in California, power is around $0.25 per kWh, so “filling up” with power is equivalent to about a 30 MPG car, in terms of cost – basically a $24,000 Toyota Camry (about the same size of car, but a LOT lower cost).

        • I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers.

          The Tesla Model S, even with a heavy-footed driver would easily be able to get the equivalent of 45-50 mpg in California driving (say 330 Wh per mile average) even at 0.25 per kWh. For comparison, I’m an efficient driver and I’m getting about 280 Wh/mile over about 120,000 lifetime miles in Portland, which is a much colder climate than California. And if a person that much of a lead foot driving the electric car, they’re going to be burning through gasoline as well.

          The Tesla model 3 is more efficient than the Model S.

      • Where do you pay your road taxes, or are you leaching of ICE cars for that? ICE car road taxes are with state and federal in Arizona is 37.3 cents per gallon. If you access a road tax what rate do you pay per mile?

        • This differs per state, and it is vey much up for debate in many states how to handle this over the long term. Some states require you pay an upfront tax when registering your vehicle to offset your future fuel pump tax evasion.
          Taxes, while currently lower for electric, are still paid based on usage on one’s electric bill. According to my own beautiful state of Ohio, it appears that would work out to $0.00363/kWh, according to tax.ohio.gov, “kilowatt_hour_tax.pdf”, ORC 5727.81.
          The taxes generally go into the state’s general fund, rather than road fund, but again, that may change. If charging at a supercharger, taxes are included in the per kWh rate (or per minute, again depending on your state). If I recall from previous research, the per minute charge at a supercharger in Ohio is around $0.21, but I’d have to find that again.

          This compares to $0.3851/gallon for Ohio and $0.184/gallon for U.S. fuel taxes.

          I will leave the comparison to the reader, but I’m sure I could whip up a script for discussion, if needed.

      • For charging at home, the wall connector needs to be installed with a 60-90 amp circuit breaker and requires a trained electrician. Electricians typically charge $65-$85 per hour, meaning the total cost of installing a Tesla wall connector can range between $630-$1,100.

        Funny how much a ‘free’ can cost.

        • I am not sure where you are getting the 60-90 Amp circuit breaker need. The onboard charger for the Tesla Model 3 (by far the majority) is limited to 240V/32A without the wall charger (standard NEMA 14-50 outlet) and limited to closer to 40A with the Tesla wall unit (a $500 upgrade, if memory serves). This equates to 30 miles of range per hour of charge @ 32A (nominal, adjusts automatically based on battery state of charge) or about 38 through the Tesla wall charger.
          Those Amperage needs, using the 80% ampacity rule, require a 40-50 Amp breaker, not 60-90.

          Who said “free”? Installing a home charger is a capital expense that one would budget into the cost of the vehicle. Charging is per kWh on one’s electric bill. None of that is free.

        • Tesla now offers three different chargers. One takes a 60 Amp circuit, one takes a 90 Amp circuit. Both of these are hardwired. The newest charger plugs into a standard electric dryer circuit. If your laundry is in your garage you can unplug your dryer and plug in your charger. You can also take it with you when you go to Grandma’s house 😉

          If the breaker box is in the garage, then there would be minimal cost differences between a 60 amp circuit and a 90 amp circuit. A few feet of larger gauge wire. The real difference would be in the load in the rest of the house. If it was an all electric house, then a 60 amp draw might be too much and trip the main breaker if you were running electric furnace, dryer, oven, water heater, etc.

    • Good point. And where is my equivalent FREE gas pump? SUCH HYPOCRISY. Long live ICE. (If you have to ask, you’re part of the problem.)

      • There’s no hypocrisy. The cost of the lifetime supercharging is born by Tesla, not the public, and Tesla built that into the price of their cars.

        • Wow, how FOS can you be? The ultimate subsidy miner is bearing the costs? Really? How many Unicorns have you seen?

          • You must be misunderstanding the conversation here. Tesla builds the superchargers and pays the power company for the electricity used by Tesla drivers. A Tesla owner who uses the supercharger for free, per Tesla’s sales agreement receives no public subsidy. The price of car presumed a certain amount of use. Even if Tesla was wrong, and a driver uses superchargers a lot, that’s money out of Tesla’s pocket – not the public’s.

            Go back to Reid Smith’s post and read it carefully. He’s arguing that people who supercharge for free are getting some kind of subsidy that he thinks is analogous to a “free gas pump.” That’s silly, as is your response.

          • Kurt, remind us again how much profit Tesla have made over the years that they have been supplying “free” power.
            It is called a loss leader and their shareholders & investors are the losers.

          • “It is called a loss leader and their shareholders & investors are the losers.”

            You have a strangely antagonistic way of agreeing with somebody. As I said, it’s Tesla who bears the financial risk of paying power companies the cost of supercharging their cars, and offering early Tesla purchasers unlimited supercharging while trying to price an expected electricity cost into the sales price of those early vehicles. There is no subsidy in the provision of “free” supercharging to some Tesla owners if the financial “losers” of this arrangement are private “shareholders and investors.”

            And incidentally, Tesla’s stock price went from about $33 in 2013 to $335 now. Somehow I don’t think that the “shareholders and investors” see themselves as “losers.”

          • Kurt, Do you realize how much assistance Tesla has received from governments (plural: local, state, fed and foreign)? Without all the subsidies and tax credits, Tesla wouldn’t exist to “bear the cost” as they’d have gone bankrupt long ago. so, no, Tesla isn’t “bearing the cost” and won’t be “bearing the cost” until governments stops assisting them with subsidies and tax credits.

    • Depends of course on the price of electricity, but a normal 70 kWh Tesla battery at .15 cents a Kw/hr would be $10.50 worth of electricity, assuming the battery is near ’empty’ and they pay the meter rate and do not get some other subsidy or have to pay an additional charge. If I had a fleet of chargers and there was a mile long line of Tesla’s waiting to charge, my Kw rate would be .50 cents/Kw/hr. Supply and demand (for peak demand and then all those resistive losses when everyone charging at once). Take it or leave it. If it is from a diesel generator, then it is close to a buck per Kw/hr to generate, just to pay the fuel. I wonder what the tow truck carrying a diesel generator charges for a basic charge to get to the next charging station?

    • Depends. Assuming you are not talking about the limited amount of hours of free charging you get with a new Tesla purchase, the Tesla website (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging ) states a price of $0.28 per kWh at Tesla Supercharger stations. It’s not clear if this is just in California, or across the US. (In comparison, it is interesting that the average residential rate for electricity across the US is only $0.13 per kWh, or about half the rate Tesla charges.)

      So, assuming (a) you want a charge from 20% up to 95% of full battery capacity on a 100kWh battery pack, and (b) the Supercharging station is 90 efficient in kWh stored in the battery versus kWh drained from the station plug due to ohmic losses and battery electrochemical inefficiency during charging, the cost would about $23.

      The cost of a “recharge” will vary widely by the amount of kWh you want to put into the battery, and if you charge at home versus using a Supercharger station. Also, my understanding is that Teslas do come with an adapter plug to allow a Tesla to charge from (generally free) public EV charging stations, albeit at much slower charge rates.

    • Try this:
      abetterrouteplanner.com/
      Really not complicated to own & plan for driving electric. Several websites like the one I provided and the in-car software give you options for chargers (Tesla, public, 3rd party private, and user-submitted such as hotels, etc.).
      The live updates of the supercharger network tell the driver (and those websites) how many chargers (two stalls each) per station, how many stalls are currently in use, and maintenance information.
      Each charger (regardless of what misinformation you read above) has sufficient planned upstream current supply to run at full charge rate regardless of how full other chargers may be. Each charger does, however, split current between stalls (1A/1B). If you ever see a supercharger station, you may notice that initial users park every-other stall (1A, 2A, etc.) to get the dedicated full charge rate. When every-other is full, it is best to park in a stall sharing a charger with the most-full neighbor, as they will use less current as their battery is closer to full state of charge, while you will draw more current into a battery with lower state of charge.

      • It’s even easier to own and plan for driving an ICE vehicle. I can’t begin to count the number of trips I’ve made without the luxury of time for planning.

        I’ve looked at the distance between my house, just north of Atlanta, GA, and Orlando, FL.
        There are five recharging stations along the route. Two are sufficiently close together as to be considered one site for all practical purposes.

        Even though I could theoretically drive the distance starting with a full charge, and recharging just once, the siting of the charging points means I would need to recharge twice (I could drive to the second one from Atlanta, but not the third; I could drive to Orlando from the third, but not the second). So I would need to stop at the second and either third or fourth. But here is the real kicker: if there are any issues – detours, charging site down, long delays – I would be screwed. Once you get close to the next recharging station, you are committed. You don’t have enough power to go back to the previous station.

        No thanks.

        • Sure sure, to each one’s own. I am not pushing for adoption, and I certainly push back against mandates. We have an ICE and a BEV, both have their limitations, and we choose which to use for road trips. Sometimes the ICE is more convenient, sometimes the BEV is more convenient. Sometimes we rent a car for a road trip (we make numerous per year) because we do not want to put lots of miles on our cars or are going someplace where we would prefer a specific vehicle type (e.g. rented a Jeep for a trip to the Smokies).
          Having owned both, I could see going BEV if you could only have one vehicle in the family. Trying to get one-vehicle-to-suit-all-needs seems silly to me; I would think finding something that fits the majority of your needs while also falling into your windows of cost, comfort, style, etc. would be much more pragmatic, combined with the ability to rent a specific-needs vehicle on occasion. It works for us, it may not work for you.

      • For Canadian Thanksgiving we drove from Calgary, Alberta to Winnipeg, Manitoba to visit our daughter. We stopped for gas twice.

        I just put that trip into the web page you posted, and the results were “No workable plan found.” It would appear that part of the problem is a lack of standardization. Not all charging stations can be used by the vehicle I selected (Tesla Model S). In fact, there were no compatible charging stations in the capital city of Regina.

    • About the same as an Arby’s roast beef and curly fries meal, takes about 20 minutes if it’s half full or less. We have about the most expensive electricity in Alberta at home, so about the same.

      Free at dozens of Peavey Marts and municipal buildings, but takes 7x longer than the busiest supercharger at 10x faster than a standard 110 plug.

  12. Wait just one minute . . . the driving distance from downtown LA to Kettleman City, CA is only 176 miles via I-5 N. Similarly, the distance from downtown San Francisco to Kettleman City is only 209 miles via I-5 S.

    Whatever happened to the EPA-rated 270-290 mile range for Tesla 90 kWh battery pack, or the 350-370 mile range for the Tesla 100 kWh battery pack?

    Thoughts:
    a) Not that many Tesla drivers consider they may have to wait to get a slot at a Tesla supercharging station.
    b) Not that many Tesla drivers think they should start a long trip with a full charge.
    c) Not that many Tesla drivers want to be inconvenienced by having to drive significantly out of their planned route in order to find a Supercharging station that might not be in such demand at peak times.
    d) Far too many Tesla drivers suffer “range anxiety” when their battery gets below 40% of full charge.
    e) What do Tesla drivers in California do when the electric utility companies say they may shut down their power lines for several days due to predicted high winds and the danger of transmission lines sparking wildfires?

    • To add to your thoughts, Gordon:

      “There are 347.40 miles from San Francisco to Los Angeles in southeast direction and 381 miles (613.16 kilometers) by car, following the I-5 S route.”

      Just a little too far for the electric beasts.
      Especially if drivers and riders desire A/C; perhaps a little music or need the windshield wipers.

      “San Francisco and Los Angeles are 5 hours 47 mins far apart, if you drive non-stop.”

      Or 7 hrs and 2 minutes if driving a Tesla and there is no waiting line..

      “Shanon Stellini was travelling through Kettleman City on November 30 when she stumbled across around 50 of the electric cars waiting in line for a recharge”

      Forty available charging stalls that are already in use.
      Fifty Teslas waiting in line means that drivers waiting near the end of the queue are going to wait at least 75 minutes, likely longer, before they can even pull into a stall and start their 75 plus minutes of charge time.
      A 7 hour drive just became at least 8 hours and 15 minutes, without traffic jams; if forty in use charging Tesla stalls haven’t increased charging times to over 2 hours.

      Oh, but the “average trip distance is only 35 miles” say the electric car advocates…

    • Then there is the ‘estimates’ for how many Tesla’s are waiting in queue…

      Longest Tesla is 5037mm (16.5 feet) long.
      Add five feet in front and at the rear for politeness and comfort, say 26.5 feet of space per Tesla.

      A half mile is 2,640 feet.
      Divide that half mile by 27 feet = an astonishing 97.7 Teslas per half mile queue.
      Making for a &ell of a long time for a drive between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

    • “d) Far too many Tesla drivers suffer “range anxiety” when their battery gets below 40% of full charge.”

      Always have a spare battery with you, only weighs about 800 pound /SARC
      But seriously, most people I know of, have can with five or ten liter diesel/gasoline in their ICE car, and if you don’t you are like to buy the five liter from another driver on your way.

      That you cannot do that with a BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle), which is not so bad if the car is used on planned routes, though. The problem comes when you you encounter long detours, sudden winter closed roads and other force majeure.

      I think the range issues is something one can get used to and adjust to. The sad thing is the cost. Because, whatever current subsidies and non road tax; in the end the all-BEV collective will have to pay for the roads, the extended grid, the increasingly expensive energy production, etc., leaving car driving to the better half of the population.

      If you do not have a lot of money, you may still make it in an old secondhand ICE car, as long as it passes the inspection. I would hesitate buying an old secondhand BEV, because if battery or electronics fails after I bought the car, requesting retrofit of those parts would suddenly make the cheap solution, a very expensive venture.

      Some previous posters compared BEV to Ashton Martin (a bit over the top), but nevertheless points out that BEV cars are great, but they are too expensive compared to ICE cars. So, if/when they by law will substitute all ICE cars, it will automatically lead to change on the work marked, social activity and living quarters. – Think DDR where few car models were available/affordable and the waiting list was years long, if you were not employed in a high position in the administration. – Is it 2030 Britain is going full BEV and the country being renamed to BDR (British Democratic Republic)?

    • To answer your issues below:

      a) Not that many Tesla drivers consider they may have to wait to get a slot at a Tesla supercharging station.

      True, but that’s because not that many Tesla driver actually do have to wait to get a slot. You’re cherrypicking an extreme case here and pretending that it’s an ordinary occurrence. It’s not. The only time I ever had to wait for a supercharger was on the day of the eclipse a couple years ago when there was extraordinarily heavy traffic. All other times there have been an abundance of empty stalls.

      b) Not that many Tesla drivers think they should start a long trip with a full charge.

      Untrue. I’d think that many Tesla owners start road trips with full charges. I always do, It’s easy – just press a couple buttons the night before. For those that had problems with the Kettleman charger, this should teach them a lesson. There are five other superchargers on the same road, within 100 miles of Kettleman, three within 60 miles and one within 30 miles.

      c) Not that many Tesla drivers want to be inconvenienced by having to drive significantly out of their planned route in order to find a Supercharging station that might not be in such demand at peak times.

      Not an issue. You wouldn’t be driving out of your way, you would be driving to the next one along your planned route, or on the rare occasion all stalls are full and no other supercharger on your route is in range, waiting. By now they are pretty closely spaced, except in lesser-populated regions where the stations never fill up (think Wyoming and South Dakota).

      I will say that a lot of Tesla drivers play the “only charge enough to get you to the next supercharger” game because that really cuts down on your charging time. In less populated regions that works fine, but in populated regions you’re taking a little bit of a risk. In all likelihood that’s what happened here at Kettleman. Drivers got there close to empty, thinking it would just be a usual day, but because of the holiday traffic, it caused problems. Again, this will probably be self-correcting because all drivers have to do is change their behavior on high traffic days to give themselves more leeway.

      d) Far too many Tesla drivers suffer “range anxiety” when their battery gets below 40% of full charge.

      Nonsense. Tesla drivers know how many miles they have left and how far it is to the next supercharger because the car tells them that information. 40% is not a problem. If you’re silly enough to let it get down to 10% and you’ve still got 25 miles to go, maybe you start worrying and driving a little slower, but that’s your own fault.

      e) What do Tesla drivers in California do when the electric utility companies say they may shut down their power lines for several days due to predicted high winds and the danger of transmission lines sparking wildfires?

      You’re picking on the wrong set of people here. The problem isn’t the Tesla drivers, its the government and the liberals in California who won’t do anything about clearing the area around transmission lines or clearing the forests of debris to prevent catastrophic wildfires. This problem is felt by anyone wanting to cook their food, or keep their dialysis machine running, and so forth. Picking on electric car owners for this is just reactionary irrationalism.

  13. Part of “range anxiety” is having a dependable charging option. EV’s are great for grocery-getting, short hops and errand running as they would have a signicant impact on air quality when the fleet is 50% +, but to head out to grandmother’s house on Thanksgiving Day weekend is inane AND insane. The only cast-iron rock solid way to own an EV, especially here in Cali is with a 220 charge port PLUS a whole-house generator for when PG&E decides to PSS you off.

  14. Doesn’t the electric rate go up in CA with high demand? Thus, charging your car at “Peak Time” will double the price.

    • Isurbrain

      Its worth paying the extra, as vile greta and her green gang will be happy that you are saving the plant, plus the 40+ thousand slave children working in Congolese cobart mines know their hard work wasn’t wasted

  15. Imagine an emergency evacuation in a place where lots of people have electric cars, or as is being codified into law in more and more places for the future…everyone has them?
    Catastrophe.

  16. This is the same issue as fossil fuel electric plants versus renewable power. You have to have reliable back up power for certain situations.

    It sounds like people were out shopping for a few hours, running around, and they needed a charge to get home. Well two hours of waiting in line to get a one hour recharge will cure your virtue signaling I am sure. Those people will be out looking for a Prius, or similar, with a built in, reliable, fossil fuel engine the next day .

  17. The TESLA buyers should have bought the optional extra, the fact they were all stranded is their own fault. The option is a diesel generator that fits in the boot and when the batteries are down to about 30% charge it kicks in and recharges the TESLA on route. Just a $2000 extra and five galls of gas is all that is needed.

    • $2000 and 5 gallons is not even close. Given the typical fuel efficiency of a standby generator, you would be lucky to get 20 miles per gallon of fuel. The generator and the fuel would require more space than the boot, and would add 300 to 500 pounds (and tire rolling resistance) to every mile driven. And given all that, the power output would not be sufficient to continue the drive without further depletion of the battery.

      • Rubbish, Generators run at the Engine’s optimum speed, so far better fuel consumption than a car.

    • “The option is a diesel generator that fits in the boot and when the batteries are down to about 30% charge it kicks in and recharges the TESLA on route. Just a $2000 extra and five galls of gas is all that is needed.”

      Gas… in a diesel…

      • What is interesting is the number of comments that thought I was making a serious comment:)
        I was joking about the TESLA optional extra. I was being ironic, a nod to the need for fossil fuel and our reliance on fossil fuel for security of mobility, Having said that, if people want to have silent pollution free travel (at point of travel) in built up areas, then go out and buy a hybrid, it ticks all the enviro boxes. Just don’t ask about the long term battery recycle issues. The difficulty for the TESLA followers is, it requires acceptance of reality and acceptance that fossil fuels are essential to our complex and highly developed living standards.

      • Thanks Roger, your effort to solving the distance security issue, is exactly what I had in mind. I particularly like the fine coal fueled trailer option,with its traditional Toot! Toot! Thomas style…. 😉

    • Oh!?
      I want a million dollars as do hundreds of millions of others. That is very high demand. No success.

      False platitudes.

      • That’s an absurd response. Wanting something doesn’t equal demand for it. Buying it does. Many people want luxury yachts. They aren’t in high demand. If you have to distort someone’s point into something it’s not, you’ve lost the argument.

    • Not meeting expectations portends failure. How many of these Tesla owners are still happy with their purchase?
      I suspect a great many of the buyers were men looking for their next ‘toy’ and convinced their spouses that it was the right thing to do. What do you think the conversation was like while waiting in line?

    • “High demand is a sign of success, folks.”

      And success can be a precondition for failure. Here’s a comment made almost a year ago on one of the Tesla threads on the Seeking Alpha financial site by commenter bull_rider:

      “On a holiday weekend when there is a traffic snarl on big city highways, owners of electric cars will run the air conditioning to keep cool right up until the car hasn’t enough power to move off the roadway. The more of these cars die where they sit (and are difficult or worse to push off the road) the more will run out of electricity as the owners try to keep cool and pretend that it’ll be OK. Before very long there will be a massive gridlock, and how do the flatbed trucks required to removed these dead BEV’s even get to them through the mess?

      “The pollution caused by this nightmare will dwarf any ‘savings’ by BEVs.

      “Thousands and thousands of vehicles jammed in place by a number of BEV’s that died in the traffic lanes. And that doesn’t take into account the possibility of hackers just shutting off a bunch of those vehicles, another route to the mega jam. “The more of these cars are on the roads, the sooner it will happen.
      “You read it here first.”

      • I hope I’m never in such desperate straits to feel the need to rely on some anonymous prognostication, posted in some Internet thread, by some person with the word “bull” in their handle.

      • I’ve seen a YouTube test where a couple of (NOT Tesla) engineers dragged a Tesla with a Ford 4×4 and a towrope to recharge it from the regen braking.

        Turns out if you started out with one gallon of fuel for the pickup, you could get more than twice as far by first pulling the Tesla, then driving it when the gas is gone. So in an actual emergency there are backup options.

        But still, maybe the best time to flee inland from a hurricane is fifteen years ahead of time?

    • The temperature was 3 C you know where I grew up Northern Minnesota a 3 C day is real warm day from November to March, that explains why Tesla has not bother with charging station in Northern Minnesota and most of North Dakota on a real cold day driving would be suicide. By the looks of it you could not charge it and keep warm inside it in below zero F weather no mater what the charging station. A Tesla would gotten me 20 miles in -50 F weather. I had to drive that distance in that temperature one cold Christmas Eve in western North Dakota in the eighties. Forget about trying to drive from Minot to Williston on one of those care in -20 F weather the 135 miles would kill the battery.

  18. Strange to imply that everyone that buys a Tesla is “virtue signaling”. Doesn’t Anthony own an electronic car?

    • Teslas are virtue-signalling. Other electric cars can make financial sense, particularly if you buy one a couple of years old that’s already depreciated by 75%.

  19. What about a petrol electric t car, the Volta. One can still Virtue signal as you would be mostly driving a electric car, but perhaps thats not being a true Greenie.

    MJE VK5ELL

  20. So I’m wondering if what might be happening is some version of the tragedy of the commons, with the resource being time. People think, “while I’m here, I may as well “fill ‘er up”, instead of just charging enough to get them home or wherever they’re going, with some to spare of course. This gets exacerbated even more as the wait time gets longer, because people think “finally, it’s my turn, and by god, I am charging up to the max. I had to wait forever, so all these others can too.” And I suspect that Tesla owners in particular may be even more prone to being selfish pricks.

    • “So I’m wondering if what might be happening is some version of the tragedy of the commons, with the resource being time. People think, “while I’m here, I may as well “fill ‘er up”, instead of just charging enough to get them home or wherever they’re going, with some to spare of course. ”

      Within the past year Tesla has addressed this issue by automatically limiting charging time at stations where it determines that there are other cars waiting.

      • Roger, please tell me that is a wind up comment, please…. No listed company could be that stupid,….could it?

        • I think he’s referring to Tesla’s policy of charging a driver what is essentially a fine if they let their car sit at a supercharger after it has finished charging, and someone is waiting. I don’t think Tesla limits charging time. And this only works for people who pay for electricity at the superchargers at rates much higher than home charging. I don’t think Tesla has any mechanism to charge someone who is grandfathered into the free charging for life.

          And as for the question by Bruce Cobb, usually the reverse happens. Tesla drivers typically stay at a supercharger as little time as is necessary to get to their next destination, whether the next supercharger, home, whatever. That’s because the higher the state of charge of the battery, the slower the recharging process. Plus if you’re paying for it, you’d be better off getting your charge at home.

          Occasionally what people will do is park their car at a supercharger overnight if it is near a hotel they are staying at, or let it sit while they eat dinner nearby even after it has fully charged, and Tesla is going after this behavior. But I’ve never seen anybody sit there to top off the battery just for the sake of topping it off.

          • “I don’t think Tesla limits charging time.”

            I’ve read, IIRC, that this is a recent innovation designed to prevent hogging a stall when there are many backed up cars behind. This is something Tesla’s know-all over the air communications system and sensors can detect and enforce.

  21. And this is with less than 4% of the cars in California being all electric and not all of those can use the Super Charger stations. Most EV owners charge at home though and don’t need open road charging but this is a classic example of unintended consequences. Sooner or later no matter how well you plan your EV will need charging on the road if you use it for an extended trip, forget to charge, or have a power outage and taking that into consideration the Tesla buyers were comforted by the Super Charger installations. At least until now. No state is close to being ready for high EV ownership and forcing it will exacerbate the problem.

    • From what I can see they will never work in a cold climate. Driving in -20 below weather is simple no possible with a battery powered car. I have drive hundreds of hours in such weather safely and comfortably. I did run out of gas once in that weather and had a clutch failure in that weather, running out of gas was one of the most stupid thing I every did, it could easily been a fatal mistake. I also ran into a rock in -20 weather with the wife and son along, it punched a hole in the transmission, the rock looked like a snow chunk so I straddled it, luckily it was as I was going by a town and a payphone was less than few hundred feet away, back then cell phone were bag phones and I did not have one. I figured it fell onto the road from a load of hay, some reason farmers in western North Dakota leave they hay out in the field during the winter and go get as needed, never did figure that one out, were I grew up in north western Minnesota the hay would have been hard to find covered up with snow.

  22. Its worse than you think, the Tesla superstation appears to be covered with solar panels (check it on map, 27675 Bernard Dr, Kettleman City, CA 93210). I wonder what fraction of those does it take to charge one tesla? And what do they do at night?

  23. Well apart from sticking with hybrids (there’s a 6 month wait ordering the new hybrid RAV4) Toyota are backing hydrogen fuel cells-
    https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-car-hits-australia-36236
    along with Hyundai having a bob each way-
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/805257/hyundai-nexo-certified-australia/

    Naturally you pitch at the taxeaters first with these expensive prototypes while those of us who don’t have access to the rivers of gold are hanging on to our gas guzzlers longer as new car sales take a dive-
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/811764/vfacts-november-2019-sales-results/

    In Elon’s ways EV buyers trust it seems with online ordering becoming popular-
    https://thewest.com.au/lifestyle/motoring/mercedes-to-sell-new-ev-online-with-set-price-ng-b881399824z
    and will the hydrogen revolutionaries adopt click and collect once the taxeaters have been exhausted? Stay tuned folks while 8 track and cassettes VHS and Beta etc etc duke it out for the one true light and the way to our pitiful wallets.

    • Hydrogen is already compromised by an explosion at a refuelling station.
      I can’t see growing the way it would need to.

  24. Reminds me of the 1970s California gas rationing days when we could only buy gas on even days. At every gas station there were always lines going out into the street and down the block.

    • That was brought to you by the peanut farmer numpty that created mortgage interest rates as high as 16%.

      • I think you’d find that both those things happened because of supply and demand.

        (Unless you believe the former Navy nuclear engineer was running the entire world.)

  25. Do Tesla charging stations only charge Tesla cars? If so, how are other EVs catered for with roadside charging?

    • When on extended road trips, most non-Tesla EVs seek out public (often free-to-use) charging stations that have been put up across the country at places such as public libraries, outside government office buildings, near or in civil parking structures, and in parking areas of shopping malls. I think only a small percentage of hotels and motels have these free-to-use to customers. The Web provides various means to find the locations of the public charging stations.

      The issue for those EV drivers is that (1) it is rare to find such public charging stations near major travel highways and interstates, and (2) the public stations charge EVs at a much lower rate, perhaps requiring 4 hours or more (like, overnight for a long distance traveler) to get a full recharge.

      There are rumors that the public stations will be upgraded (“eventually”) to provide charging rates equivalent to Tesla Superstations, but don’t hold your breath on that.

      Oh, and some business entrepreneurs have seen the opportunity and are in the process of selling EV charging at their own stations at a very premium price in places of high demand. I would not be surprised to see this happen soon at Kettleman City, CA.

  26. I saw research some time ago by Tesla that stated that Teslas were 5th cars in family in the USA.
    So the families in California have several options for their virtue signaling.
    Another piece of interesting research was that in Sweden , 70% of EV owners still kept an ICE car.
    To me this suggests little faith in EVs even though they are heavily subsidized to the extent that they are cheaper to buy than ICE vehicle with among other things no sales tax and free parking and freedom from tolls.

  27. Many comments touched on, but did not name, the queuing theory that is behind the waiting in line problem. An explanation is here:
    https://www.thoughtco.com/queuing-theory-4171870
    The core of the problem is interarrival time. Poisson statistical distribution provides one tool for analysis. Alternatively, there is the Exponential distribution. I recall from either the ClimateGate papers or WUWT comments on them, that climate scientists treated someone who could do linear regression as a deity. Imagine
    how they would deify someone who could do queuing analysis.

    • I never knew that my wait in line at the post office was explainable via queuing theory . . . I have always analyzed it as being due to either (a) too few postal workers manning the service windows, and (b) the workers that ARE manning those windows moving slower that molasses on a cold day.

        • Try to find another way to send/receive certified or registered mail, as well as many other functions not available via electronic means.

    • OK but how do you explain waiting time in huge airports, on the order of 100 times the plane arrival rate?

      Why isn’t the wait time at security of more than 10 minutes?

      Is there any place where people should wait less than airports?

  28. Can you safely turn a fleet of Tesla into stackable 1meter x 1meter cubes? Which is the real reason why Elon is launching Tesla’s into space, and has developed a re-useable rocket booster technology. /doh

  29. Hot news!

    I just happened upon an article on The Development of the Modern Motor Car: “In the electric car, it is possible that those driven by petrol may, at some future time, find a serious competitor. The electric broughams used in towns exhibit the high state-of efficiency obtained by the employment of this propulsive agent, and the absence of noise and smell. Their future, however, depends upon the discovery of much more efficient accumulators or upon the establishment throughout the country of electrical charging stations, and until such time as one or other of these conditions is fulfilled their use must be limited to towns or the neighbourhood of works where their supply of electricity can alone be replenished.”

    Dated January 1906.
    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/57055/57055-h/57055-h.htm#Page_13

    • Who’d have thought that just fifty years later the Rural Electrification Associations would have run wires out to farms and country homes.

  30. US figures:
    cars 276,000,000
    households 130,000,000
    gas stations 168,000
    pumps 1,300,000

    Can the migration to EVs be a very slow process? I doubt it. Charging stations aren’t cheap, and absent sufficient demand for a long period probaly means they won’t be installed in many locations. Here are some ‘current’ problems:

    Using standard household current and voltage, you get two or three miles of driving for every hour of charge. That won’t work for most in the US, where we live in the ‘burbs, work in the city, and have multiple errands to and from work. A supercharger can cost a thousand dollars or more just for installation, assuming you have a place for it. Unless it is included in financing the car, that could be difficult for many to swallow.

    When you consider house renters, apartment renters, travelers, temporary needs, etc., you cannot escape the need for almost as many charging stations as we have gas stations; as many chargers as we have gasoline pumps. There were 49.3 million people driving on trips of 50 miles or more during Thanksgiving (over 100 miles roundtrip. Does Grandma have a supercharger at her house?) They need about 167,000 more sites, and 1,300,000 chargers before the only inconvenience is the charging time. At the very least, Tesla has got to enter into an agreement with a major service station chain to install a few superchargers at every station. And they’ve got to do it quickly. Otherwise, they will never be competitive with fossil fueled vehicles in the marketplace. The typical person is not going to buy an EV unless he sees a lot of charging locations. Having to spend more time to recharge a battery than fill a gas tank is bad enough. Make a him drive an extra ten miles to do it would be the straw to break Tesla’s back.

    This is a huge issue.

      • Stevek: You need more charging stations than gas stations as the time to charge is slower than a refill of gas

        You certainly need more places in general to charge than gas stations to support the same number of cars, but a lot of charging can take place at home (for those who live in a house with an car accessible outlet) or work (for the few workplaces that have set up charging areas for their employees) – so that take cares of a lot of the “extra” places to charge. Probably doesn’t bring the number down to exactly the same number as gas stations, but probably brings it down to a number that isn’t too unfeasible.

        jtom: The typical person is not going to buy an EV unless he sees a lot of charging locations

        Depends on what you think the typical person’s needs are, and whether or not you are including hybrids in the term EVs. The typical commuter that typically drives well within the driving range of an EV, could well consider buying one (particularly a hybrid one) even if there are only a few charging locations – as long as they can charge from home. My own commute (which probably is fairly typical in my locality) is a prime example. While I don’t own an EV (too expensive, IMO, even with OPM subsides), an EV would easily get me to and from work with energy to spare on a typical day. A bitterly cold winter’s day would be the biggest potential challenge for an all electric (winter is a killer on EV range). A hybrid, on the other hand, would easily handle that challenge.

    • One EV is basically equivalent to one house. Now having most EVs plugged in at night can a typical residential neighbourhood electrical infrastructure handle the power required. Yes at night power requirements of a typical residence is reduced but I suspect not enough to make a difference

    • No, not an issue because you don’t have to stand by the car holding the cord. They put the chargers at the mall parking lot near the food court instead of out by the freeway, because they can.

      We would never have bought an EV if we didn’t first work out a plan to keep it charged. It’s a bit challenging to do on 120v, but now that we have a 240v charger it’s just not an issue.

      Obviously it’s not going to work for everyone. Many of the young people I know find buying car insurance to be the biggest hurdle to owning *any* car, rather than the cost of fuel or energy or even buying the car.

  31. A computer scientist told me that a queue will almost always be close to empty or very long. I’m not sure the reason but my experience is that this is true. This applies to grocery stores, bank lines, and seems charging stations as well. I think it is because supply often doesn’t line up with demand.

    • Almost universally, one cannot design any facility or service organization for peak demand (that may occur, say, 5% of the time) because then the other 95% of the time the facility or service is over-designed and the associated excess resources are being wasted.

      Similarly, one cannot design any facility or service organization for minimum demand (that may occur, say 5% of the time) because then the other 95% of the time the facility or service is under-designed and the customers get turned off, even greatly upset, by the wait time and inconvenience, and will then look to alternatives (i.e., shop elsewhere).

    • Our local Tesco Petrol station is never empty during the day, I usually have to wait for at least on car in front even mid mornig & mid week. Weekends are far worse.

      • Yes, and that medium-sized queue I’d hazard to guess either moved quickly and became a small queue or it moved slowly and became a large queue. rarely do they ever stay a medium queue for very long. which is the point Stevek’s computer scientist pal was likely making. Queues either efficiently handle the incoming traffic (in which case they run small/nearly empty) or they don’t (in which case they backup rather quickly until another queue opens up to help handle the excess)

  32. Clearly, petrol as an energy carrier is superior to the battery. All electric will only fill a niche in the transport market, e.g. short, frequent town journeys. For longer journeys the hybrid is the way to go.

  33. Even if we overcome all of the engineering problems associated with charging EV’s, their owners are gonna discover they’ve been caught in a bait and switch. As the numbers of EV’s grows and gas driven cars declines, state and federal governments will not be able to resist a nice fat fuel tax.

  34. EVs are not a solution to climate change, their carbon footprint is larger than gasoline cars, due to the energy intensity making the battery, this is the EV’s dirty little secret,

  35. Arab oil embargo of the 70s meets California stupid.

    I doubt the car industry execs who are spending many billions on EVs, EV battery plants, and new models will notice this fundamental flaw.

  36. Does “fast charging” degrade battery life? I have read where it does on a smaller scale (cell phones.)

    • “Does “fast charging” degrade battery life? I have read where it does on a smaller scale (cell phones.)”

      I assume so. Battery pack monitoring, continuous input current adjustment, and a combination of active and passive cooling of the batteries helps quite a bit.

  37. Electric cars are a failed design more so than a failed concept. Like a cell phone they need the ability to run all day before needing a charge. We don’t have that technology yet so they are basically a waste of money.
    May people will be sorry when they have a paper weight in 7 years and the batteries no longer charge.
    One reason electric cars are a failed concept is the reason people buy them. They believe they are helping with climatic change. They are not helping. They are brainwashed by the TV.

    • “Electric cars are a failed design more so than a failed concept. Like a cell phone they need the ability to run all day before needing a charge. We don’t have that technology yet…”

      Sounds a lot like a failed concept if the technology doesn’t exist.

      • It’s not the concept of an electric car per se that fails, it’s the battery that powers it that is the stumbling block.

  38. I was there… and here is what I observed:
    On Black Friday I stopped to charge my Model S at the Kettleman City Supercharger at 4:00pm with zero wait. This particular site is large – 40 stalls and a small Tesla store with restrooms and coffee. Two days later on Sunday at 3:00pm, I used this Supercharger again with no waiting. In fact over the last year I’ve charged there 21 times and I’ve never waited in a line. The In-N-Out down the street is another matter though!

    I appreciate the focus on data at WUWT, so here are some details to work with: My 2016 Model S averages 290 Wh/mi (and I don’t try to drive efficiently as a practice), my overnight energy cost is 12 cents per kWh (SCEdison), so it cost 3.5 cents per mile (for energy) if I charge at home. To compare with gas, the Mobil station at Kettleman is charging $4.53/gal today, so my car is achieving 130 mpg on a relative cost basis. However I normally don’t charge at home, the car has lifetime free supercharging, and as a result I’m saving about $5,000 per year compared to the SUV I drove before. Apparently Tesla charges 28 cents per kWh for most of the customer base in the US. The warrantee on the 75 kWh battery is 8 years with unlimited miles. I have driven over 100,000 miles in two years and the range has dropped from 250 mi (new) to 234 mi (current). On the issue of taxes, I received a $7500 rebate on my Federal return, I paid $7516 in sales tax, and I pay about $700 annually to register the car in CA. The high sales tax and registration are true for any expensive car here of course. The Federal rebate has dropped to $1,875/car for Tesla currently.

    It’s hard to justify a Model S or X on an economic basis. I suspect a Model 3 or Y might be a money saver but it all depends on your driving habits. Elon’s constant pandering to the global warming cult is disappointing, but I have to say this car has been the best purchase I have ever made. When I get on the freeway in LA, I engage autopilot and then have the car drive the next 150-180 miles autonomously to Kettleman City or Harris Ranch. It’s an amazing product.

    • If your Tesla uses 290 Wh/mile, its mpg-e is 115 to 119 (depending on which formula you use), not 130. If you pay 12 cents/kWh, the cost to drive is indeed 3.5 cents/mile exclusive of any “gas tax replacement” fees. I’m sure you’re aware that you drive much more than most people.

  39. Battery technology could change, if politicians were open.minded, or indeed people?

    Aluminium-Air technology has long attracted attention due to its cheap, lightweight and high-energy nature. Aluminium is the most abundant metal on Earth and is easy to handle, store and is safe as a way of storing electrical energy.​

    A Métalectrique power cell is actually quite simple. A piece of Aluminium is in contact with a special electrolyte. This electrolyte reacts with the metal on the negative end and on the positive end, air reacts with the electrolyte. When those two reactions are combined, aluminium is transformed into hydrated alumina and electrons are transferred from the second layer, through the conductor, ready to power a device. After use, the hydrated alumina can be reprocessed by smelting it, recovering the water and oxygen as it forms fresh aluminium. This cycle can be used over and over again. Aluminium-Air technology has long attracted attention due to its cheap, lightweight and high-energy nature. Aluminium is the most abundant metal on Earth and is easy to handle, store and is safe as a way of storing electrical energy.​

    A Métalectrique power cell is actually quite simple. A piece of Aluminium is in contact with a special electrolyte. This electrolyte reacts with the metal on the negative end and on the positive end, air reacts with the electrolyte. When those two reactions are combined, aluminium is transformed into hydrated alumina and electrons are transferred from the second layer, through the conductor, ready to power a device. After use, the hydrated alumina can be reprocessed by smelting it, recovering the water and oxygen as it forms fresh aluminium. This cycle can be used over and over again.

    https://www.metalectrique.com/aluminium-air-systems

    • While I am hopeful for a replacement for Li-ion battery technology, I am skeptical of the Aluminum-air idea from a mobile-solution perspective.
      So a driver consumes / converts the aluminum into hydrated alumina. …and then?
      Then you whip out your mobile smelter?
      Grandma then lifts the expended battery pack onto the stack at the levy, installs a new one?
      Station attendant? Some automated process?
      Where is this smelting occurring? How are the expended packs transported to the smelting facility? Are fresh cells made at the same facility? How are they transported back to the levy? To one’s home? Is there danger of spilling the liquid electrolyte during this very regular change?

      Electric, diesel, gasoline, and LNG can all be distributed and refilled (they each have their precautions and drawbacks). Does Al-air have a distribution & refilling capability?

  40. Dang, I saw this too late. I own an EV but not to save the planet; got it strictly out of curiosity during Think’s bankruptcy sale. I know so much about EVs, but I’m afraid I missed the party. LOL

  41. No way to extinguish battery fire with water – water thats upholding electric power supply. Special fire extinguishing foam is the only way.

    In an underground car park there’d be needed an explosion save extra room to install e-mobile charging points.

    Licensing of underground car park charging points is up to the local fire brigade: very special / crucial.

  42. No way to extinguish battery fire with water – water thats upholding electric power supply. Special fire extinguishing foam is the only way.

    In an underground car park there’d be needed an explosion save extra room to install e-mobile charging points.

    Licensing of underground car park charging points is up to the local fire brigade: very special / crucial.

    https://youtu.be/JGaBlygm0UY

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