Wind Farm Back-of-the-Envelope Economic Analysis

Guest post by Larry F. Brown, PhD

We visited a wind farm in southern Utah recently. I’ve always been curious about the costs, profitability, and physical size of these things as well as the footprint and environmental impact. I had 3 meetings with the man in charge of maintenance of the wind farm, a landowner who leases land accommodating 4 of the turbines, and a man who works in the industry in Colorado – and did some internet/newspaper research.

The maintenance superintendent told me they have 27 towers, that the installation cost was about $2 million each, and that each turbine is rated at 2.3 megawatts/hr but produces an average of 1.3 megawatts/hr (= 1,300 kW/hr). The blades are 187 ft long so the total height is nearly 400 feet high, and the tower at the base is about 13 ft in diameter encapsulated in huge quantity of concrete. The project pays about $1 million in taxes to the community each year and has a 20-year lease.

A nearly 400-foot-tall propeller-tower is a very imposing structure, especially in close proximity. They are huge. They make a whooshing noise and the turbine itself makes a little noise. The propellers appear to be moving very slowly but the tips of the blades normally travel at 180 to 200 mph. The blades can ice up, which requires deicing (with electricity) and can throw ice a significant distance – hence each tower has a flying ice danger zone clearly labeled with signage.

I pay about $.11/kWh for my electricity here in western Colorado. So, beginning the process of calculating the profitability of these things, each tower @ 1,300 kW/hr could produce an average of $143/hr = which would be $3,400/day = $1,253,000 of electricity/year. Sounds good – so far.

[Note – Germany boasts about their renewable energy effort but Germans pay about $.35/kWh on average – 3.3 times more than we do here in Grand Junction – and their rates can get as high as $.50/kWh.]

The $.11/kWhr I pay includes all the distribution costs, etc. The wind farm is not paid $.11/kWhr for their electricity. According to the ISO Wholesale Power Market Prices, the electric company sells electricity for about $.03/kWhr so instead of grossing $1.253 million, they might gross about $342,000 per year per turbine. Still sounds good – so far.

[The landowner indicated he gets a royalty for each tower that comes to an average of approximately $1,000/tower/month and gets paid separately for the power line easement across his land.]

“BUT WAIT!” (- as they say on late night TV when giving you the hard sell).

All of that income happens only if the machines produce 24/7/365. They don’t. They need to be down for periodic maintenance and for when the wind does not blow the right speed. I don’t know what percent of the time these particular turbines produce electricity, but studies show the wind only blows the right speed (the wind can blow both too soft and too hard) 18 to 19% of the time on average across the country. 18 to 19 % of $342,000/year = $65,000. MMmmm, all of a sudden, the economics don’t look very good. $65,000/year/tower is nowhere near enough to even pay the interest on a 5% loan to construct the tower $2 million tower.

It gets lots more complicated when you consider that the wind farms are being subsidized by the government with the Production Tax Credit (PTC). A tax credit should not be confused with a tax deduction. A deduction reduces the amount of income you pay taxes on. is paying taxes on. A credit is money back. And the PTC is a “Refundable Tax Credit” which means the company does not just get to pay fewer taxes but actually gets paid by the government even if it does not owe any taxes.

The PTC subsidy has been in effect now for 27 years. Congress has adjusted the PTC many times through the years but today the subsidy is about $.02/kWhr. So, the power company gets money back in the form of a subsidy for roughly 67% of what they produce – i.e., the company gets money back to the tune of $.02/kWhr after it sells the electricity for $.03/kWhr. If the company sells $3 million of electricity they get the $3 million plus a PTC subsidy of $2 million. That is a huge subsidy! In fact, I think it is the biggest subsidy ever given for anything.

T. Boone Pickens and Warren Buffett both have huge investments in these things and both have openly said that wind farms would not be economic without the PTC.

Note: Now, if I were the company and using the above example, I would report a gross income of $5 million. But, as a taxpayer, it’s more honest to say the wind farm has a gross income of $3 million. It would be dishonest to include a subsidy as profit. So, my back of the envelope calculations will go on from here without considering the subsidy as income.

Note: I would be surprised if these wind farms pay any income taxes. Potential taxable income can be written off against the investment for many years – probably the life of the project – without even dipping into the PTC.

Then, I don’t know for sure, but I think the turbine manufacturers also are subsidized by the government.

However, the economics get worse – much worse. The maintenance man said the towers cost about $2 million each – i.e., about $54 million for the 27 towers. Each tower probably does cost $2 million to install, but there are many other development costs associated such as land and right-of-way leases, power line construction, road construction, fencing, runoff control, revegetation, etc. Newspaper articles reported that this particular wind farm cost about $130 million, which is about $4.8 million per turbine. That means the income of $65,000/yr/turbine won’t even come close to paying the interest on a $4.8 million investment.

Note – According to the Wind Technologies Market Report, US wind turbine market prices in 2016 were just under $1,000 per kilowatt, or about $2.3 million for a 2.3-megawatt turbine (about $1,000 / kilowatt). These turbines installed cost about $4.8 million for a 2.3-megawatt turbine ($2,087 / kilowatt). An offshore turbine project recently approved off the coast of Virginia is projected to cost $25 million per megawatt ($25,000 per kilowatt). Wow.

In addition, the turbines are very technologically sophisticated and require constant maintenance. For example, the oils used in the turbines are very temperature sensitive and, when the turbines are not generating power, they must be heated – with electricity. Various articles point out that, although they produce electricity intermittently, they consume it continuously. Whether the wind is blowing in the desired range or not, they need power to keep the generator magnetized, to keep the blade and generator assembly facing the wind, to periodically spin that assembly to unwind the cables in the tower and to balance the pressure on the shaft, to heat the blades in icy conditions, to start the blades turning when the wind is not blowing fast enough to keep them going, to keep the blades pitched to spin at a regular rate, and to run the lights, internal control and communication systems.

One article I read indicated that in a worst case analysis, these large wind turbines might use as much electricity as they produce. I don’t assume the worst case and just lump electrical usage in with the many other maintenance costs.

I assume the maintenance cost for this wind farm (manpower on call 24 hours, office rental, trucks/fuel, electric consumption, security, snow removal, replacement parts, etc.) to be at least $750,000/year. Additional expenses of this particular wind farm (mentioned earlier) are the $1 million paid in taxes to the local government and the $1,000/tower/month) rent to the landowners. Together these 3 expenses add up to $2,074,000/year = about $77,000/turbine/year, so the income goes down from the $65,000 to a negative $12,000/turbine/year. For simplicities sake, let’s just call it $0/turbine/year. Said another way, this project, according to this back-of-the-envelope calculation, makes no money.

Note: I tried two times to get the company to review these calculations. They did not respond.

And, all those materials (and permits and land leases) have a life expectancy of 20 years. What happens after 20 years? There is a wind farm in northern Colorado that is no longer producing, purportedly because the maintenance cost is too high to rehabilitate the turbines. The wind farm sits abandoned. All mining companies are required to bond for reclamation of a site when mining is done. I do not think this is true for wind farms.

Another interesting thing is that the dynamics of the power market are shifting. It used to be that peak power prices occurred during the day. Now they occur at night when solar is not producing. Thus, renewables are now generating when the prices are lowest in the diurnal power price curve.

The bottom line back-of-the-envelope conclusion of this economic evaluation is that these things are not even close to being economic.

And, environmentally, they kill birds and bats – millions of them. I used to wonder how this could be happening. The propellers seem to be turning so slow. But the propeller blades are so long they only appear to be moving slowly. The tips of the blades are actually moving at 180 to 200 mph. No wonder a bird can’t see them coming. And, apparently bats don’t even have to be hit by the blade to die. The way bats are killed is that the passing blade creates a vacuum and the bat’s lungs explode even if he doesn’t come into contact with the blade. And, yes, I know that cars and windows and cats kill birds but cars and windows and cats don’t kill eagles and falcons and other protected birds and endangered species, and cars, windows, and cats don’t kill bats.

And, the stupidest, most injudicious, most reckless thing of all is that the Obama administration granted permits to wind farms to kill birds and bats, including endangered species. All other industries are fined big dollars for killing birds – not wind power. Double Standard? How crazy is this?

Then, the coup d’état – The craziest part of this whole thing is that we must keep 100% of the fossil fuel plants operating to generate electricity during the 80+ % of the time the wind is not blowing at the right speed. Wow. So, what do we save?

We continue to build thousands of these things at a cost to the taxpayer of $ billions/year. Why in the world are we doing this? I’m dumbfounded.

As indicated, each tower in this farm cost about $4.8 million. Assuming a 5% loan, each tower would have to produce $240 thousand per year to break even – i.e., even pay the interest on the loan. And, any normal investment would have to have some percent profit per year. I assume such an enterprise would have to earn at least another 5% per year as profit after taxes and interest to be a decent investment. That would mean that each tower would have to make $480,000 per year. My calculation indicates they don’t make any real money. My calculations might well be wrong. They might even be wrong by a factor of 2. But I doubt very much if my calculations are off by $480,000/turbine/year.

My conclusion: Companies are making money on these things, but the source of the profit is only (or at least mainly) coming from the Production Tax Credit – the subsidy paid by our government with our tax money for these projects. It’s obvious that T. Boone Pickens and Warren Buffett were right. Without the PTC (for the past 27 years) these things would not exist.

To make it worse, laws and regs have mandated electrical companies to produce x % of their electricity from renewable sources by such and such deadline. The renewables can’t make money so the electrical companies raise the overall price of electricity to cover these higher cost renewables. How silly is this? It’s very silly because the technology does not exist to store this electricity. Regardless of what Governor Brown or Governor Polis say or mandate, without storage, renewables will never replace other forms of electrical production.

The bottom line? A total waste of money – a total boondoggle – profitable to companies only because we, the taxpayer, are subsidizing them – and why are we subsidizing them? – because it’s green and it makes us feel good. And because a few “politicized scientists”, a whole bunch of liberal politicians, and the United Nations espouse that the burning of fossil fuels is causing global warming by adding CO2 to the atmosphere.

Well, we are indeed adding CO2 to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels but CO2 is an insignificant greenhouse gas. CO2 has increased from 0.028% to 0.041% of the atmosphere (an increase of 0.013% percentage points) in the past 140 years. The theory says man’s 3% contribution to the 0.013% increase is causing global warming. How could only 3% of that minuscule 0.013% (i.e., a component comprising 0.00039% of the atmosphere) cause global warming? It can’t. Even more absurd, we are supposed to believe that taxing and selling carbon credits for that 0.00039% of the atmosphere will curtail the warming, slow the ocean level rise (as Obama promised), and save the planet?

It’s nonsensical. CO2 is not a pollutant. CO2 is a fundamental requirement for life and the added CO2 is actually greening the planet – vegetation worldwide is growing about 20% faster and using less water than it was because CO2 is a fertilizer for plant growth.

I think we should stop building these wind farms — tomorrow.

Larry F. Brown, PhD

The climate data they don't want you to find — free, to your inbox.
Join readers who get 5–8 new articles daily — no algorithms, no shadow bans.
5 1 vote
Article Rating
299 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Rob
July 21, 2019 9:13 am

What’s never factored in to the cost is the multi sector complete and total economic destruction these alternative energy scams brings with them. Energy is the base of an economy, and one by one, through the supply chains from financials, manufacturing, and labor markets , it’s like a wrecking ball is taken to all. Europe is 20 years ahead of north America with this alternative energy craziness and their economies are like a dead man walking. Most of their banks are insolvent, and I hear that Deutsche Bank is just about ready to go belly up. If that goes, it will trigger a world wide recession. One, that the EU will not be able to recover from.

BillP
July 21, 2019 9:14 am

As others have pointed out, there are many errors in this article.

Hence, it just discredits our case by enabling the alarmists to say we don’t know what we are talking about.

It should be removed.

Greg
Reply to  BillP
July 21, 2019 10:34 am

Yes, and he does not even name the wind farm in question so someone can get the correct figures and check his work.

[MODS:]
I know our host does not like just removing stuff but this should not have been published and needs an update saying that it contains serious errors.

Paul Penrose
Reply to  Greg
July 21, 2019 11:20 am

Wrong, there are no serious errors, just nit picking. If you had serious objections you would have led with those.

BillP
Reply to  Paul Penrose
July 21, 2019 2:28 pm

Failing to state sources is a big blunder in science; and a favourite tactic of con artists, like self proclaimed “climate scientists”.

The next biggest blunder is that he fails to realise that the “1.3 megawatts/hr” (presumably 1.3 MW) already takes into account that the wind turbines do not operate 24/7/365 and so uses 18-19% of that. This get a capacity factor of just 11%, which is implausibly low.

His inability to get the units correct makes the numbers themselves suspect. Did he actually mean MWh/day? Is he consistently using megawatts/hr when it should be MW or does he use it for other units as well?

Greg
Reply to  Paul Penrose
July 26, 2019 10:02 am

Trying to do a cost analysis when you do not even the know what the physical properties measured are is a joke. Pointing out that someone has no understanding of the subject and has not even done basic research before concluding the profitability of a venture is not knit picking.

I would be equally scathing of someone writing about climate or anything else who clearly had not idea of the subject.

DaveK
July 21, 2019 9:37 am

After doing the back-of-envelope review of the economics of these massive wind-farms, let’s turn that sharp pencil to the even more absurd proposal to put these turbines offshore. You still have the same issues of the basic costs of the mechanical bits, but now you are adding installation and maintenance costs that are likely orders of magnitude higher.

Reply to  DaveK
July 21, 2019 12:08 pm

Besides that, the geoengineering and “Carbon” sequestration proposals need the exposure provided by a “Sharp Pencil”

Roger Knights
July 21, 2019 10:05 am

“From the article:
“The theory says man’s 3% contribution to the 0.013% increase is causing global warming. How could only 3% of that minuscule 0.013% (i.e., a component comprising 0.00039% of the atmosphere) cause global warming? It can’t.”

The theory actually says that man’s 3% contribution is per year, need that it persists, so over time it builds up.

Greg
Reply to  Roger Knights
July 21, 2019 11:25 am

Yes, I have no idea what he is talking about there, and I suspect neither does he.

There are serious questions about the viability of wind power but this mixed up article is not making them in a credible way.

Greg
July 21, 2019 11:04 am

Ah it seems there is only one large scale wind farm un Utah:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milford_Wind

” including 58 Clipper Liberty 2.5-MW wind turbines ”

Nameplate capacity 306 MW
Capacity factor 22.9% (average 2012-2017)
Annual net output 613 GW·h

Units operational 58 X 2.5 MW (Clipper)
107 X 1.5 MW (GE)

So the 58 units discussed seem to be one phase of the installation, comprising about half the 306MW boilplate capacity. So assuming that both models are as good, they produce just over 300GWh per year actual for real electricity, on average.

Taking the author’s 3c/kWh wholesale price: 300×10^6 x $0.03 = $9million / year or $155k/year per tower.

I won’t bother going into his speculative running costs etc.

john
Reply to  Greg
July 21, 2019 12:52 pm

My friend provided testimony to the House Ways and Means Committee with info regarding Clipper Wind. It was published and it has conveniently disappeared. Will post as a reply here if what it entailed.

john
Reply to  john
July 21, 2019 1:15 pm

My friend provided testimony to the House Ways and Means Committee with info regarding Clipper Wind. It was published and it has conveniently disappeared. Will post as a reply here if what it entailed.

Here is a basic sample. Some links may be dead due to firms hired to manage reputations.

http://www.windtaskforce.org/m/blogpost?id=4401701%3ABlogPost%3A108741

I’ll try to get an original PDF of the testimony. Stay tuned here.

john
Reply to  Greg
July 21, 2019 1:08 pm

We’ve written a lot about the Clipper wind fiasco and my trusted friend and analyst provided testimony to the House Ways and Means Committee of serious issues.

It seems to have been disappeared.

https://waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Barbara_Durkin.pdf

I’ve alerted her of this issue and stand by for an ‘update’ here.

john

BillP
Reply to  Greg
July 21, 2019 3:09 pm

The description seems to fit Latigo Wind Park better, that has 27 turbines: GE Energy 2.3-116 (power 2 300 kW, diameter 116 m)

That only started operation online April 2016 and I have not been able to find actual production data.

Reply to  BillP
July 21, 2019 8:40 pm

Per the EIA, Latigo Wind Park production in 2017 was 153,706 megawatt-hours (MWh). If the nameplate capacity is 62 MW, the capacity factor is 28 percent.

That’s approximately equal to other Utah wind farms (or wind electrical production facilities):

http://scppa.org/page/milford-wind

Utah is not a very good state for wind power.

Larry Brown
Reply to  Greg
July 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Greg – this “farm” is just outside Monticello, UT.

DipChip
July 21, 2019 11:04 am

I predict that in the not to distant future investors will be building homes and elevators in these towers,
AKA missile silos.

DipChip
July 21, 2019 11:31 am

Can you imagine the rukus raised by the global warmers if we were to have set 50 of 92 daily record high temperatures June 1 thru Aug 31 any where in the world during the past 10 years.

This data is from Norfolk Nebraska official US weather station, 50 daily high temperatures during the decade of the 1930’s

To confirm my data select Norfolk Nebraska from site location and submit.

https://www.weather.gov/oax/monthly_climate_records

Kurt in Switzerland
July 21, 2019 11:38 am

Larry Brown:

Please do yourself (and your readers) a favor and correct the units on the references to Wind Turbine Capacity to MW, not MW/h.

I remember speaking with an architect who was quite absorbed with energy-efficient homes who managed to confuse energy with power (and wasn’t even aware).

Just admit that you made an error and move on.

Larry Brown
Reply to  Kurt in Switzerland
July 21, 2019 8:35 pm

Kurt – I have admitted it and moved on.

toorightmate
Reply to  Larry Brown
July 22, 2019 4:40 am

Larry,
I have come across people who quote hectacres for land area!!!
Other people get confused by Imperial and Metric time.

Kurt in Switzerland
Reply to  Larry Brown
July 23, 2019 11:41 am

Thanks, Larry.
Sorry, I didn’t see your message culpa.
You should have the body of the article amended appropriately, lest interested readers come to the conclusion that you are scientifically challenged.

But I agree with you that the shrill cries to deploy ever-increasing wind power capacity constitute naïve or duplicitous behavior.

Kurt in Switzerland
Reply to  Kurt in Switzerland
July 23, 2019 12:37 pm

Mea culpa (spell check) 🙂

Rich Davis
July 21, 2019 12:06 pm

coup d’état?

Now the windmills are trying to overthrow Trump, too?

I guess from the context you meant coup de grâce

July 21, 2019 12:10 pm

At 201907220230 – Australian Eastern Time – pricing per MegaWatt Hour – per aemo.com.au

Queensland: $16.78

New South Wales: $17.26

South Australia: $ – 0.01

Victoria: $ – 0.01

Tasmania: $ – 0.24

Yup – the wind is blowing – for now…..

Reply to  Tombstone Gabby
July 21, 2019 9:34 pm

At 201907221425 – Australian Eastern Time – AEMO shows:

Queensland: $55.38

New South Wales: $58.03

South Australia: $15.65

Victoria: $ – 0.01

Tasmania: $19.24

Still getting some reasonable winds…..

john
July 21, 2019 12:15 pm

Update: Wind turbine fire now over 500 acres .

https://www.khq.com/news/juniper-fire-burning–acres-south-of-bickleton-washington/article_4fb985c0-abdd-11e9-8ffe-53ce60382194.html

Note: As a former fire chief, forest fire warden and wind energy consultant, the wx forecast looks grim for at least the next 48 hours.

On that note, this is one of the best economic articles on the wind fiasco to date. Thx to WUWT for putting this up!

Reply to  john
July 22, 2019 3:58 pm

No, there are many that are very rigorous and well done by energy experts.
I feel bad having to say it, but let’s not mislead the lurking readers who might look no further and start quoting this article as if it were authoritative.
And that is why one must get the details correct.

bwegher
July 21, 2019 12:19 pm

The author claims he spoke with the local expert for the basic info on the wind generators he visited.
Either he or his expert don’t have the first clue about what they are talking about.
Electrical generation is expressed in Watts. That is Joules per second.
The nameplate capacity is just the designed ability of the generator to maintain some output in Watts on a continuous basis.

Saying the capacity is “2.3 megawatts/hr” means 2.3 megawatts per hour, which is a nonsense unit.
Converting to Joules, that becomes 2.3 megajoules per second per hour. Nonsense in this context.
A rate of change of power output might be of interest to indicate some kind of trend.
There is no point in wasting time reading what follows.

If someone wants to learn about wind power generation, try another source. I imagine Denmark has some reliable numbers regarding wind power generation over years.

Big Bubba
July 21, 2019 2:00 pm

Let us be charitable. To err is human.
The author made a non trivial and basic mistake in expressing units of power, and I am sure he feels the weight of all the negative feedback on his shoulders.
I guess it is a valuable lesson to always have a second pair of eyes proof read a script before publishing, and if that script includes physics or math then the proof reader should be someone with that particular expertise.

Sweet Old Bob
Reply to  Big Bubba
July 21, 2019 2:42 pm

‘To err is human”…. to forgive is against company policy .
😉

Dave Fair
Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
July 21, 2019 2:47 pm

“To err is human.” You need a computer to really foul things up.

July 21, 2019 2:41 pm

First you say the turbine is rated at 2.3MW/hr but it averages 1.3MW/hr which gives a capacity factor around 55%.

Then you say because of maintenance and intermittent wind, only 19% of the 55% is produced giving about 11% capacity factor.

Wrong!

Also, turbines are rated as MW, not MW/hr.

Robber
July 21, 2019 3:44 pm

If a wind turbine is rated at 2.3 MW (nameplate capacity), that means that at maximum design wind speed the turbine can deliver 2.3 MW. On average, most wind turbines deliver about 30% of nameplate capacity, in this case 0.7 MW.
But wind is a variable, so actual generation is likely to vary between zero and 1.4 MW, with just occasional peaks close to 2.3 MW.
Therefore this wind turbine is likely to deliver about 0.7x24x365 = 6,132 MWhr per year.
If the average wholesale price is $30/MWhr, that gives gross income of $184,000 per year.
For a capital cost of $2 million, and say a 20 year life, capital write off equals $100,000 per year.
That leaves $84,000 per year to cover maintenance costs and generate a return on investment.
If maintenance costs are 2% = $40,000 per year, net income is $44,000 per year for a 2% return on capital.
But then there’s the complicated world of subsidies….

Dave Fair
Reply to  Robber
July 21, 2019 4:55 pm

Actually, 2.3 x 0.3 x 24 x 365 x 30 = $181,320/yr revenue per turbine. O&M on these types of facilities is about 5% (for planning purposes) of $2,000,000 = $100,000/yr. Thus net annual revenue = $81,320.

The PV of a $81,320 annual revenue stream over 15 years at 5% (generous) is $844,080: You can’t even begin to recover your investment.

Hell, if I give you only 2.5% annual O&M, net revenue of $131,320/yr over 15 years gives a PV of only $1,363,063! As the old saying goes: “We’ll make it up in volume.” Actually, they make it up off the backs of taxpayers and ratepayers.

jim heath
July 21, 2019 5:11 pm

Private enterprise is great: If you want to mine cheese from the moon, go for it, just don’t ask me to invest in it.

Big Bubba
July 22, 2019 1:53 am

Golly. See the link from the NZ meteorological service. Note they say that MWh = MW/h
And these people work for an energy company…

https://blog.metservice.com/Meridian-Energy-power-production

WHAT IS A MEGAWATT HOUR?
A megawatt hour (MWh) is a unit of energy. It equates to one million watts per hour, or 1000 kilowatts per hour. 1MWh is enough to power 50 New Zealand homes for a day.

Reply to  Big Bubba
July 22, 2019 2:07 am

Um … can you say “Third world country”?

Not seriously, but yeah …

Reply to  Big Bubba
July 22, 2019 11:54 am

WHAT IS A MEGAWATT HOUR?
A megawatt hour (MWh) is a unit of energy. It equates to one million watts per hour, or 1000 kilowatts per hour.

No, a megawatt hour (MWh) does not equate to one million watts per hour. It is equal to one million watts *for* one hour.

Big Bubba
July 22, 2019 3:37 am

On reflection: The criticism about Larry using the expression of units MW/h versus MWh might need to be retracted. The equation XYz=XY/z is satisfied for all values provided z=1
While restrictive in the sense of being a special case, it is fairly common parlance for power usage ‘over’ a period of 1 hour.
We owe Larry an apology!

July 22, 2019 4:13 am

Larry:

TY for addressing the industrial wind energy issue. A few brief comments as a wind energy expert:
1 – There is no such thing as a wind “farm.” What you wrote about was industrial wind facilities, etc.
2 – These wind projects are very profitable (based on insider info and actual economic realities). That means that your calculations are mistaken, and/or incomplete.
3 – The profitability of wind projects from the developer’s perspective is not the main concern. What are of concern are: a) ratepayer costs, and b) net costs to host communities. Both of those are VERY problematic.
4 – For more information please see WiseEnergy.org.

Reply to  john droz, jr.
July 22, 2019 3:51 pm

Come on…they are widely referred to as wind farms, by the people who make them and pay for them etc.
So that is how reliable your expertise is.

Chip
July 22, 2019 4:33 am

Wind farms also create grid stability problems for utilities. It’s nice when they’re supplying power, but something has to be backed down, usually a gas fired plant and they may no longer be operating in the efficient range. The power is not reliable enough to keep the lights on.

James Shannon
Reply to  Chip
July 22, 2019 9:03 pm

That goes back to the “use it or lose it” of our electrical grid. We have no storage capacity on our AC power grid. It’s put on the grid and it is gone nearly that instant – either used by a consumer (lights, heat, etc etc) or as heat wasted out the grid.

Unless/until we can address the storage issue – solar or wind are nice, but they aren’t the end all /beat all.

Reply to  James Shannon
July 26, 2019 2:38 pm

Excess Power on the grid causes the voltage to Increase – Not Good.
Excess Voltage on one portion of the grid and not enough voltage in another portion of the grid causes the voltage to flow to the lowest voltage area. That in-turn will cause protective circuit breakers to trip and in-turn cause blackouts. That is what happened in all of the various multi-state blackouts. When voltage drops fast enough it can cause a power station to trip off line and no dispatcher is fast enough to prevent it. If you like renewables – get used to it as they will be more frequent.

Michael Pickens
July 22, 2019 7:26 am

name one (1) wind turbine that T Boone Pickens’ owns
#patheticresearch

Reply to  Michael Pickens
July 22, 2019 9:21 am

Michael Pickens July 22, 2019 at 7:26 am
name one (1) wind turbine that T Boone Pickens’ owns
#patheticresearch

???

Cut to the chase: Start at 3:58 for the money quote:

T. Boone Pickens: “I’ve Lost My Azz” in Wind Power – ‘The Jobs Are in the Oil and Gas Industry’

Michael Pickens
Reply to  _Jim
July 22, 2019 10:48 am

I was there, when T Boone, my father, signed a contract with GE for 1200+ turbines. He made a “downpayment” for 125, 2.5MW turbines, to begin delivery 18 months out. Shortly after, his “hedge fund” suffered a 98% loss. He sold the 125 turbines to FPL. As for “money quotes” – narcissists lie, alot.
#tbooneISbroke

Steven Burnett
July 22, 2019 9:14 am

I think you double counted capacity factor.

The average output is 1.3MW. That includes downtime. Hitting it with another 80% reduction is where your number run bad.

It looks like they would maintain profitability however it would only be a few tens of thousands for a multi million investment.

Reply to  Steven Burnett
July 22, 2019 10:12 am

Steve, you are correct. Larry discounted the output twice

Larry Brown
Reply to  Donald L. Klipstein
July 22, 2019 12:12 pm

Donald – Thanks. As indicated I had this thing reviewed by a guy who works in the industry (and many others). He saw the 2.3 to 1.3 reduction, did not comment on that, but then provided me with the 18-19% wind factor and indicated that should be an additional reduction in output – hence, I thought I was doing it right by using both reductions in output.