Energy Returned On Energy Invested: Real(ish)Things That Don’t Matter, Part Trois

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Guest Seinfeld routine by David Middleton

In Part One of this series, we looked at Peak Oil and its irrelevance to energy production and also discussed the relevance of Seinfeld. In Part Deux, we looked at “abiotic oil,” a real(ish) thing that really doesn’t matter outside of academic discussions and SyFy blogs.

Part Trois will explore perhaps the most meaningless notion to ever come out of academia: Energy Returned On Energy Invested (EROEI or EROI depending on spelling skill). EROEI is like what Seinfeld would have been if it was written by Douglas Adams.

EROEI

EROEI is the preferred energy metric for Malthusians, environmental activists, Warmunists and proponents of uneconomic energy sources. Invention of this concept is generally credited to an ecology professor…


The energy analysis field of study is credited with being popularized by Charles A. S. Hall, a Systems ecology and biophysical economics professor at the State University of New York. Hall applied the biological methodology, developed at an Ecosystems Marine Biological Laboratory, and then adapted that method to research human industrial civilization. The concept would have its greatest exposure in 1984, with a paper by Hall that appeared on the cover of the journal Science.[6][7]

Wikipedia

Surprisingly, I find it unsurprising that an ecology professor would come up with such a “brilliant” concept.

While I understand why Malthusians, environmental activists, Warmunists and proponents of uneconomic energy sources would embrace EROEI, I was disappointed to see that the World Nuclear Association was embracing it, although, they do seem to recognize the pitfalls…


The economics of electricity generation are important. If the financial cost of building and operating the plant cannot profitably be recouped by selling the electricity, it is not economically viable. But as energy itself can be a more fundamental unit of accounting than money, it is also essential to know which generating systems produce the best return on the energy invested in them. This energy return on investment (EROI), the ratio of the energy delivered by a process to the energy used directly and indirectly in that process, is part of life-cycle analysis (LCA). Since any energy costs money to buy or harvest, EROI is not divorced from economics. An EROI of about 7 is considered break-even economically for developed countries, providing enough surplus energy output to sustain a complex socioeconomic system. The US average EROI across all generating technologies is about 40. The major published study on EROI, by Weissbach et al (2013, since the early editions of this paper) states: “The results show that nuclear, hydro, coal, and natural gas power systems (in this order) are one order of magnitude more effective than photovoltaics and wind power,” particularly when any energy storage is factored in for intermittent renewables.

Analysing this energy balance between inputs and outputs, however, is complex because the inputs are diverse, and it is not always clear how far back they should be taken in any analysis. For instance, oil expended to move coal to a power station, or electricity used to enrich uranium for nuclear fuel, are generally included in the calculations. But what about the energy required to build the train or the enrichment plant? And can the electricity consumed during uranium enrichment be compared with the fossil fuel needed for the train? Many analyses convert kilowatt-hours (kWh) to kilojoules (kJ), or vice versa, in which assumptions must be made about the thermal efficiency of the electricity production.

World Nuclear Association

I love nuclear power. It is the most dependable way to generate electricity at a relatively low cost… apart from the cost of building the power plant. Figure 1 lists the Energy Information Administration’s latest estimates for the levelized cost of electricity from various sources. I did not include the tax credits for wind and solar because electricity consumers and taxpayers are often the same group of people. I converted the costs from $/MWh to $/mmBtu (million British thermal units) to make it easier to compare to the value of petroleum and natural gas, and sorted from lowest to highest cost.

Figure 1. EIA levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) from new generation sources entering service in 2023 (2018 $/mmBtu)

While nuclear power might have a great EROEI value, it’s nearly twice the cost of the least expensive generating source and even more expensive than onshore wind and solar PV. Although the fact that nuclear power plants generate electricity when “the wind don’t blow, and the Sun don’t shine” is very important.

Note that only natural gas combined cycle and geothermal are within 20% of hydroelectric. Geothermal and hydroelectric are great… But they only work in specific locations.

The Anthropological View

So far, EROEI has been a fairly innocuous academic exercise… However, this is what an anthropology professor can do with it:

It is difficult to know whether world industrial society has yet reached the point where the marginal return for its overall pattern of investment has begun to decline. The great sociologist Pitirim Sorokin believed that Western economies had entered such a phase in the early twentieth century ( 1957: 530). Xenophon Zolotas, in contrast, predicts that this point will be reached soon after the year 2000 (1981: 102-3). Even if the point of diminishing returns to our present form of industrialism has not yet been reached, that point will inevitably arrive. Recent history seems to indicate that we have at least reached declining returns for our reliance on fossil fuels, and possibly for some raw materials . A new energy subsidy is necessary if a declining standard of living and a future global collapse are to be averted. A more abundant form of energy might not reverse the declining marginal return on investment in complexity, but it would make it more possible to finance that investment.

Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies, p 215

The phrase “energy subsidy” appears at least 17 times in this book. The general theme is that declining EROEI values forced ancient complex societies to invade other complex societies to steal their energy (an energy subsidy) or collapse. A couple of points:

  • Societies don’t produce energy, businesses do.
  • Up until the Industrial Revolution, there was basically one source of energy: biomass.

While wind, water, animals and slaves were factors, biomass was *the* energy source from the Dawn of Civilization up until the 1800’s.

Figure 2. Richard Newell, Daniel Raimi, Despite renewables growth, there has never been an energy transition, Axios

Joeseph Tainter also authored a 2012 book on the Deepwater Horizon disaster and its supposed relevance to EROEI.  His coauthor was Tadeusz Patzek, a professor of petroleum engineering. This is from Chapter 2, The Significance of Oil in the Gulf of Mexico, page 8…


Why would a company like BP build such a monument to technology and ingenuity as the Macondo well in the first place? Why was it necessary to drill for oil one mile beneath the surface of the Gulf of Mexico? Hubris among top management may have minimized the perception of risk, but well-informed employees throughout the organization understood the perils as well as the benefits of deep offshore operations. You may think that the need and motivation for these operations are obvious, but any rationale for drilling in these inhospitable environments must take into account the amount of oil (or energy in some form) that is needed to build and maintain an offshore drilling rig such as the Deepwater Horizon, extract the oil, and transport, store, and bring the precious liquid to market. In other words, large offshore platforms are built and operated using vast quantities of energy in order to find and recover even more. The cost is still higher when you consider the complex management and regulatory structures needed to complement the technology, however poorly you may feel that  the responsible people performed in the case of the Deepwater Horizon.

Let us begin with fundamentals. First we need to know how much recoverable oil is waiting for us down there, how this amount of oil measures up against demand and total oil use in the United States, and how big the energy profit is after so much energy is expended in exploration, drilling, recovery, refining, and transportation to your local gas station or power plant. In other words, do the benefits outweigh the risks, for whom, and for how long?

Joseph Tainter and Tadeusz Patzek , Drilling down: The gulf oil debacle and our energy dilemma. p8

A Geological Reply to the Anthropologist

Does anyone else have answers for Dr. Tainter’s questions? Well, I do.

Why would a company like BP build such a monument to technology and ingenuity as the Macondo well in the first place?

Because that’s where the oil was.

Why was it necessary to drill for oil one mile beneath the surface of the Gulf of Mexico?

Because that’s where the oil was.

Hubris among top management may have minimized the perception of risk, but well-informed employees throughout the organization understood the perils as well as the benefits of deep offshore operations.

Dudes!  Five companies bid against BP for an opportunity to drill “Macondo”…  BP’s high bid barely beat out smaller independent oil company LLOG Exploration…

  1. BP Exploration & Production Inc. $34,003,428.00
  2. LLOG Exploration Offshore, Inc. $33,625,000.00
  3. Noble Energy, Inc. $17,225,650.00
  4. Red Willow Offshore, LLC $14,075,000.00
  5. Eni Petroleum US LLC $4,577,115.00
  6. Anadarko E&P Company LP $2,145,950.00

Only one of BP’s competitors for the lease, Eni, was a major oil company. The rest were small, mid-sized and large independents.  Anadarko wound up partnering with BP on the Macondo well.   After the Deepwater Horizon disaster, LLOG Exploration was able to take the lease over and successfully drill the prospect.

LLOG Exploration renamed the prospect “Niedermeyer”… part of an Animal House theme.

Niedermeyer was a nice discovery.

  • Four wells on MC 208, 209, 252 and 253.  Feb. 2015 through July 2017.
  • 21.7 million barrels of oil (mmbo) and 57.5 billion cubic feet (bcf) of natural gas.
  • MC 252 SS-1 Well:  6.1 mmbo & 15.6 bcf.  Oct. 2015 through July 2017.  Avg. 9,600 barrels of oil per day (BOPD) and 24 million cubic feet of natural gas per day (mmcf/d).

The Niedermeyer, Marmalard and Son of Bluto 2 fields were completed as subsea tiebacks to LLOG’s “Delta House” floating production system (FPS) on MC 254.

Murphy Oil just bought this and other deepwater assets from LLOG for $1.4 billion. So, I think the industry has a much better grip on the “perils as well as the benefits of deep offshore operations” than an anthropology professor does.

You may think that the need and motivation for these operations are obvious, but any rationale for drilling in these inhospitable environments must take into account the amount of oil (or energy in some form) that is needed to build and maintain an offshore drilling rig such as the Deepwater Horizon, extract the oil, and transport, store, and bring the precious liquid to market.

The “need and motivation for these operations are obvious”… To make money.  No oil company or any other type of business would “take into account the amount of oil (or energy in some form) that is needed to build and maintain an offshore drilling rig such as the Deepwater Horizon, extract the oil, and transport, store, and bring the precious liquid to market,” and remain in business.

I can guarantee that we don’t factor the cost of building the drilling rigs that we contract to drill wells in the Gulf of Mexico. We factor in the cost to contract the rig and drill the well.

Nor is the cost of manufacturing the cars and trucks that we commute to work factored in. Nor is the cost to get the turkey sandwich I am about to eat from the various farms that grew the turkey, cheese, bread, jalapeño peppers and mayonnaise, to the Kroger supermarket where I bought them… Because, if I didn’t eat, I wouldn’t be able to explore for oil very well.

We absolutely do not denominate any of the costs in Btu, joules, Watts or any other units of energy measurement. I don’t spend energy to fill my gas tank. I don’t give energy back to the gas & electric companies in exchange for them being nice enough to heat and light my home. My company doesn’t drill for oil & gas to make energy.

I spend money to fill my gas tank. My company drills wells for oil & gas to make money. My gas & electric bills are paid for with money. My pay check, ChevronTexaco, ExxonMobil & Shell credit card statements and checks to the gas & electric companies aren’t denominated in joules, kilowatts or Btu – They are denominated in $.

I don’t give a rat’s @$$ if 1 barrel of amoeba farts uses less energy to produce than 1 barrel of crude oil… Because the barrel of amoeba farts costs $1,100 and can’t be produced in sufficient quantities to be waiting for me at the Chevron, Texaco, Exxon or Shell station when I need it.

If oil companies (or any businesses) used EROEI to guide their investment decisions, they would go out of business, unless the government was footing the bill… And government could only foot the bill for such foolishness until they ran out of OPM (other people’s money).

The most fracking hilarious thing from Tainter’s and Patzek’s book was this Gulf of Mexico production “forecast”…

Figure 3. The ugly love child of Peak Oil and EROEI. (image from Tainter & Patzek)

I have no idea what “industry projection” they were referring to. Prior to Macondo deepwater production was forecast to increase sharply because a large number of deepwater discoveries, particularly ultra-deepwater Lower Tertiary discoveries were expected to come online. All of these projects were delayed by the Obama maladministration’s unlawful drilling moratorium and “permt-orium” in the aftermath of Macondo .

Here is a plot of actual Gulf of Mexico production overlaid on “Patzek’s Projection”…

Figure 4. Reality

Of course, that’s not how the oil industry would plot the production. This is how we would plot it:

Figure 5. Context

We would also include the natural gas production.

Figure 6. More context. Gas production in barrels of oil equivalent (BOE) is in red.

The decline in gas production from the shelf has been more than offset by gas from onshore shale plays, particularly the Marcellus. Gulf of Mexico natural gas prospects are extremely unattractive at <$3.00/mcf.

Some energy numbers:

  • 1 barrel of crude oil = 5,722,000 Btu
  • 1,000 cubic feet of natural gas = 1,037,000 Btu

Current prices:

  • Crude oil (WTI) = $65.82/bbl = $11.50/million Btu
  • Natural gas (Henry Hub) = $2.52/mcf = $2.42/million Btu

I could “spend” 2 Btu of natural gas to produce 1 Btu of oil and make over a 2:1 return on capital. The bottom line isn’t denominated in joules, watts or Btu… It’s denominated in $$$.

Offshore oil production facilities are usually powered by diesel fuel or natural gas.  Most, if not all, of our offshore platforms consume at least some of the produced natural gas as fuel.  Natural gas-fired electricity is cheap.  Most of the cost of natural gas-fired electricity generation is the fuel.  Not having to purchase the gas for fuel makes it even cheaper.

There’s a growing trend in certain “woke” areas to power offshore oil facilities with “green” electricity.

Figure 7. The incredible dumbness of being “woke.”

If you subtract the variable O&M costs (mostly fuel) and transmission costs from natural gas-fired generation, you can get an idea of just how much more expensive it is to power offshore platforms from remote “green” energy sources. (Note: This is not meant to be a definitive calculation, just ballpark numbers).

Considering the fact that you can only sell oil for about $11.50/mmBtu, paying over $38/mmBtu for electricity just seems dumb. Even if I used the Brent price ($73.72/bbl), it’s just $12.88/mmBtu.

Inflation Adjusted Energy Prices

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see a clear pattern of rising energy prices.

Figure 8. Inflation-adjusted price of gasoline.
Figure 9. Inflation-adjusted price of diesel fuel.
Figure 10. Inflation-adjusted price of heating oil.
Figure 11. Inflation-adjusted residential price of natural gas.

It kind of sucks that we only get about $2.50/mcf for the gas we produce in the Gulf of Mexico, but I have pay about $10/mcf to the fracking utility company.

Figure 12. Inflation-adjusted price of electricity.

If the Obama maladministration hadn’t halted the free-fall in electricity prices, it would be free by now… /SARC

GDPROEP

GDPROEP may not be as “catchy” as EROEI, but GDP Return On Energy Production is actually a meaningful metric.

World Bank/IEA GDP per unit of energy use (constant 2011 PPP $ per kg of oil equivalent)

M’kay?

References

“Delta House Field Development, Gulf of Mexico.” Offshore Technology | Oil and Gas News and Market Analysis, www.offshore-technology.com/projects/delta-house-field-gulf-mexico/.

“Energy Returned on Energy Invested.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 1 Apr. 2019, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested.

“Energy Return on Investment.” World Nuclear Association, www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and-the-environment/energy-return-on-investment.aspx.

“GDP per Unit of Energy Use (Constant 2011 PPP $ per Kg of Oil Equivalent).” Data, data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.GDP.PUSE.KO.PP.KD?view=chart.

Middleton, David H. “Deepwater Horizon: EpiLLOG.” Watts Up With That?, 20 Oct. 2017, wattsupwiththat.com/2017/10/20/deepwater-horizon-epillog/.

“Murphy Oil Acquires Deepwater GOM Assets from LLOG for $1.375 Billion.” Murphy Oil Acquires Deepwater GOM Assets from LLOG, www.worldoil.com/news/2019/4/23/murphy-oil-acquires-deepwater-gom-assets-from-llog-for-1375-billion.

Newell, Richard, and Daniel Raimi. “Despite Renewables Growth, There Has Never Been an Energy Transition.” Axios, 17 Aug. 2018, www.axios.com/despite-renewables-growth-there-has-never-been-energy-transition-e11b0cf5-ce1d-493c-b1ae-e7dbce483473.html.

“Norway: Equinor to Power Oil & Gas Platforms with 88MW OWF.” Offshore Wind, 28 Aug. 2018, www.offshorewind.biz/2018/08/28/norway-equinor-to-power-oil-gas-platforms-with-88mw-owf/.

“Power Generation for Offshore Environments.” Audubon Companies, 1 June 2015, auduboncompanies.com/power-generation-for-offshore-environments/.

Tainter, Joseph A. The Collapse of Complex Societies. Cambridge University Press, 2011.

Tainter, J. A., & Patzek, T. W. (2012). Drilling down: The gulf oil debacle and our energy dilemma. Springer New York. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4419-7677-2

U.S. Energy Information Administration, “Levelized Cost and Levelized Avoided Cost of New Generation Resources in the Annual Energy Outlook 2019.” Levelized Cost and Levelized Avoided Cost of New Generation Resources in the Annual Energy Outlook 2019, EIA, 2019.

“U.S. Energy Information Administration – EIA – Independent Statistics and Analysis.” Short-Term Energy Outlook – U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/realprices/.

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April 25, 2019 6:15 am

a Systems ecology and biophysical economics professor

Where do they come up w/these excremental “degrees”? I guess it started w/basket-weaving in the 60s & took off from there.

William Astley
April 25, 2019 7:05 am

I hate this constant fighting that goes no where.

There are real breakthroughs in every field, reality changing discoveries that exist because our institutions are silly, stupid ineffective.

There is a fission reactor design that is as cheap as coal to build, that does not have catastrophic failure modes, that is six times more fuel efficient, that can be mass produced, that was built and tested 50 years ago.

We need a conceptual summary of fission reactor ‘design’ and the monkey business that has been going on in the US driven nuclear ‘industry’.

A NASA engineer (12 years ago) while looking for a fission reactor to use on the moon re-discovered a fission reactor design (that was built and tested 50 years ago by the designer of the light water reactor) that cannot have fuel rod melt downs as it does not have fuel rods and that does not have endothermic reactions or phase changes to blow the reactor apart.

The ‘new’ design operates at atmospheric pressure rather than 150 atmospheres.

The molten salt reactor produces heat at 600C (47% thermal efficiency) rather than 320C (Pressure water reactor, 36% efficiency) which enables the use of standard steam turbines rather than custom turbines which only the ‘nuclear’ industry uses.

The ‘new’ fission reactor is roughly 1/3th the cost of the old pressure water reactors, it six times more fuel efficient, it produces 1/9 th amount of long lived radioactive waste and it can be mass produced.
The new reactor system is sealed so it possible to have very near zero radioactive material release under any imaginable normal or accident scenario.

The new reactor design is something that everyone would rather have near them as opposed to a coal fired power station, natural gas power plant, or hundreds of wind turbines.

Fuel rod, water cooled reactors are very expensive as it is an engineering fact that that design has multiple catastrophic failure modes which require an expensive containment building and expensive systems to avoid melt downs and explosions.

1. Low water flow. Fuel rods melt down
2. Loss of water flow (pumps fail, valve fails, power failure, piping failure, and so on). Fuel rods melt down in roughly 12 minutes.
3. Low level. Fuel rods melt down and zircon cladding covering the fuel rods reacts with air to create hydrogen gas which blows up.
4. Overpressure. Reactor blows up.
5. Loss of pressure. Fuel rods melt down and zircon cladding covering the fuel rods reacts with air to create hydrogen gas which blows up.

Getting rid of the fuel rods and using a salt that melts at 400C and boils at 1400C is the solution to building the best theoretically possible thermal spectrum fission reactor.

This story needs to told.

John Endicott
Reply to  William Astley
April 25, 2019 8:33 am

There is a fission reactor design that is as cheap as coal to build, that does not have catastrophic failure modes, that is six times more fuel efficient, that can be mass produced, that was built and tested 50 years ago…..

Great, show me one in commercial operation so I can validate that your assertions are true in reality. Oh wait, what’s that you say? there *isn’t* any in commercial operation? Then, sorry, you are blowing smoke. All you’ve said is hype about vapor ware. Get back to us when you have one (just one, that’s not too much to ask is it?) in commercial operation so that the hype can be compared to reality.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 25, 2019 9:34 am

The Royal Society’s Newton said to Frenchman Papin’s Proposition, that a steam engine would cost too much, in 1707. Nothing happened until Benjamin Franklin intervened with Watt decades later. Papin was disappeared.

Since then Britain has lost control of technology, and now China is simply ignoring the Newtons of to today. The Royal Mint’s Newton would likely have praised wind generators “cheapness”.

William Astley
Reply to  John Endicott
April 25, 2019 10:02 am

What is your point?

That politicians are miss informed? There is no official documentation summarizing the reactor test 50 years ago.

That the nuclear ‘industry’ is fixed where breakthroughs sit around (are hidden from the public) for 50 years. That it is obvious that the Department of Energy is not interested in a ‘breakthrough’ fission reactor design.

Duh. Is CAGW a real worry or not? Are the cult of CAGW interested in a solution that will cost effectively reduce CO2 emissions.

Why are we spending trillions of dollars on green stuff that does not work to reduce CO2 emissions, when there is a fission reactor design that is six times more fuel efficient, that does not have catastrophic failure modes, and so on?

Terrestrial Energy has a molten salt reactor that has reached Canada regulator phase 2 approval.

Terrestrial Energy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgTgV3Kq49U

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609194/advanced-nuclear-finds-a-more-welcome-home-in-canada/

Terrestrial Energy unveils SMR licensing plans

Terrestrial included the status of the design, analyses, testing, licensing, and project planning for its Integral Molten Salt Reactor (IMSR), which is a liquid-fuelled, high-temperature, 400 MWt advanced reactor power plant design.

Terrestrial is examining four sites for its first commercial plant, which include the Idaho National Laboratory (INL) and additional sites east of the Mississippi River.

Last year, New York-headquartered Terrestrial Energy USA’s parent, Canada’s Terrestrial Energy Inc, announced its plans to engage with the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission in a pre-licensing design review, a first step towards an eventual licence application.

John Endicott
Reply to  William Astley
April 25, 2019 10:30 am

The point is: You are making a lot of statements of fact that are not facts because what you are shilling doesn’t actually exist in commercial operation where such “facts” would be verified. Stop hyping the vapor ware as if it really existed in reality. MSR sounds good on paper, I’d love to see it live up to the hype but all we have so far is the hype. that’s it. Get back to us when you can show one in commercial operation. One should not be too much to ask for something that you endlessly talk about as if it’s ready to go into operation at the flip of a switch.

John Endicott
Reply to  William Astley
April 25, 2019 10:36 am

There is no official documentation summarizing the reactor test 50 years ago.

And yet you spout a lot of “facts” about something that you admit has no official documentation and still is not in commercial operation many decades after those tests. Like a said, lots of hype little in the way of real world validation.

William Astley
Reply to  John Endicott
April 25, 2019 10:55 am

John,

The official documentation of the test was found.

The test was a complete success. There are no significant technical issues with building the no water, no fuel rod, no catastrophic failure mode design tomorrow.

The NASA engineer meet with some of the retired engineers and scientists that worked on the test. They all said it was successful and they did not understand why the cheap as coal, no failure mode reactor design is not used today.

There has a PBS nuclear special that discussed the test and had film coverage of the meeting of the NASA engineer and the original test workers.

The problem is we are installing green stuff that does not work when there is a real solution that does work.

John Endicott
Reply to  John Endicott
April 25, 2019 11:43 am

William you said “There is no official documentation summarizing the reactor test 50 years ago” now you say “The official documentation of the test was found” those two sentences contradict each other. Pick one story and stick to it please.

The test was a complete success. There are no significant technical issues with building the no water, no fuel rod, no catastrophic failure mode design tomorrow.

Great, then you should have no problems showing me one (just one, that’s all I ask) in commercial operation. Eh? what’s that? there aren’t *ANY* in commercial operation? Then you are once again pushing hype not reality.

The NASA engineer meet with some of the retired engineers and scientists that worked on the test….

blah, blah, blah. Enough hype, show me the reality in commercial operation.

The problem is we are installing green stuff that does not work when there is a real solution that does work.

You are half right. We are installing unreliable green stuff, but the “real solution” you keep pushing is vapor ware until you can show just one in commercial operation. And you can’t, because there are none in commercial operation. So stop lying about how great and power your vapor ware is. Seeing is believing and you have nothing to see. Only when you have something to show (one, just one will do, in commercial operation) then and only then can you say how great and wonderful they are because then and only then can everyone see how the hype stands up to the reality.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 5:38 am
Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 6:00 am

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/thorium-nasa/ This is a 6-hour Thorium Reactor video,

John Endicott
Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 6:51 am

Roger your links suffer the same problem as William’s posts: all hype, no actual commercially operating reactors to look at. Lot’s of “plans” and “projects” but still no actual commercially operating reactors. Get back to us when you have one (just one, that’s really, really not too much to ask) that is online and in commercial operation so that the hype can be compared to the reality.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 9:26 am

Actually John the Indonesian Trial RIg is I believe in Testing and of cource Weinbergs Rig worked perfectly well back in the late 60’s and ran successfully for several years.

The dISCUSSION ON eUAN mEANS SITE IS VERY INTERESTING WHERE SOME CONVENTIONAL nUCLEAR ENGINEERS QUESTION THE LOW-LEVEL WASTE TREATMENT ( sorry caps came on pushed for time so leaving)

http://thorconpower.com/project/

So actually it seems very promising the other area of interesting is battery storage at a large scale this Project is fascinating in that regard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA

2012 ted talk and the commercialisation
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/german-firm-turns-aluminum-smelter-into-huge-battery

Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 9:29 am

Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 9:47 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyDbq5HRs0o
Original Public Info film from Oakridge Laboratory

John Endicott
Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 10:27 am

Actually John the Indonesian Trial RIg is I believe in Testing and of cource Weinbergs Rig worked perfectly well back in the late 60’s and ran successfully for several years.

Roger, Testing and actual commercial operation are *two different things*. There are many, many products that have made it to the testing phase that never progress beyond to become commercial (case in point the 1960s tests you speak of never resulted in a commercially operating reactor). Testing is, in part, where you learn if the product is viable enough to attempt commercial application. So again, get back to us when you have one (Just One, that’s all that is being asked of you, that shouldn’t be too much to ask if it’s everything the hype you’ve been shoveling is to be believed) in commercial operation so that the hype can be compared to actual operating reality.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 10:55 am

John,
The Chinese are going ahead with this technology as are the French and the Indonesians are also looking at having commercially operating Thorncon plants working by 2022. Oakridge produced Electricity for several years the reason the project was not commercialised is simply to do with by-products suitable for weapons use, Thorium does not have that by-product and its really that simple.
Thorium offers cheap and abundant Electricity which would change the Energy sectors Scarcity based model quite a lot that is also an objection to it from the Oil and Gas sector.
Here are Dr Tim Morgans Dangerous Exponentials and Perfect Storm reports. They bear watching Even the Oil and Gas industry are not immune from the Exponential function and for prosperity to grow so too does surplus available energy have to grow.

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/resources/
https://longhairedmusings.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/climate-change-agw-and-all-points-from-activism-to-skepticism/
A section on my PDF on Climate science.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ZHfkDjveZzYXU3UHhLem1HQms/view
reproduces Bob parkers excellent article on the Petro Dollar whys and wherefores.
http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2011/01/DrillingIntoDebt.pdf

Robert Parker, CEO of Holborn Assets in Dubai
Answered Sep 17, 2016
Originally Answered: Why is oil priced in US dollars?
Well, in order to understand it, you can read this article that is available on Holborn Assets official website: Why is the US Dollar Still the Reserve Currency of the World

In this article you will find out:

why the USD has the world currency status?
what was the Nixon shock and why it happened?
how the USD got to the petrodollar system?
what is the main oil producer that collaborates with the US?
You will discover that the USD gave up the gold standard and tried to replace the gold with oil, so they made a deal with the Saudi Arabia, and later with other OPEC countries, to sell their oil exclusively in exchange for the USD. In this way, the USD demand was maintained and the US currency is still the world reserve currency today.

Happy reading!

Regards,

Bob Parker

Holborn Assets About Us

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Roger Lewis

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Robert Parker, CEO of Holborn Assets in Dubai
Answered Sep 17, 2016
It all goes back to the Bretton Woods agreement, when the USD was selected (imposed) as a world reserve currency. It was right after the WW2 was almost done, and the pound had the status at that time.

https://holbornassets.com/blog/finance/us-dollar-still-the-reserve-currency-of-the-world/

John Endicott
Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 10:32 am

So actually it seems very promising

Lots of proposed products that never make it commercially looked very promising at one time or another. Promising, however, doesn’t equate to being commercially viable. I’d love to see MSR live up to it’s hype but it hasn’t managed in yet in 50s years. which makes all these pronouncements by some about how it’s “the future or energy” that’s “ready to start tomorrow” so much hot air. I’ll believe it when I see it, and until there a commercial reactor (which there currently isn’t) there’s nothing to see here at this time.

John Endicott
Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 11:45 am

the Indonesians are also looking at having commercially operating Thorncon plants working by 2022

Great then get back to us in 2022 and we can see how well it worked out (or if it’s still “a couple of years away”) – anything before then is just more blowing the hype smoke about vaporware.

April 25, 2019 7:22 am

Has anyone noticed that it was Nixon who took the $ off the gold reserve system of Bretton-Woods just before impeachment? Note: Not off the gold standard system as wished for by Austrian School ideologues.

Since then it is known as the PetroDollar, and we have had endless crashes, which only intensified since Greenspan took out the Glass-Steagall bank separation laws in 1999. Is the string of wars (Iray,Libya,Syria, Venezuela?) because of the PetroDollar?

So measuring energy prices in PetroDollars seems to me a sophistry?

Is $1 in a petro-economy the same as $1 in a nuclear-fission economy? How about $1 in a functioning nuclear-fusion economy?

That said, the article raises many important points such as power density, enigmatically referred to above, of a modern agro-industrial economy.

Energy businesses function in a physical economy. That paycheck $ is a physical economic $.

Phoenix44
Reply to  bonbon
April 25, 2019 7:51 am

Wasn’t that Great Depression before countries came off the gold standard?

John Endicott
Reply to  Phoenix44
April 25, 2019 12:26 pm

Indeed it was.

Reply to  Phoenix44
April 26, 2019 1:38 am

Nope. Nixon broke the Bretton Woods Gold Reserve System , the fixed exchange rate system in 1971.
The Gold Standard system proposed by Britain was not adopted at 1944 Bretton Woods – many knew of the British gold standard based Specie Resumption Act of 1875 which sparked multiple crises soon after.
The petrodollar global system is used to steal with oil spot pricing. Oil hoaxes after 1971 jacked the petrodollar like a yo-yo – it is no longer a US currency, rather an British imperial global tool.

John Endicott
Reply to  bonbon
April 26, 2019 5:07 am

Wasn’t that Great Depression before countries came off the gold standard?

Nope. Nixon broke the Bretton Woods Gold Reserve System , the fixed exchange rate system in 1971.

Um, The Great Depression was in the 1920s/1930s fifty years *before* Nixon. The most of th world’s economies *were* on a Gold standard when the depression started. The UK and many Scandinavian countries left the gold standard in 1931 as a result of the economic crash. Care to try again.

John Endicott
Reply to  bonbon
April 25, 2019 9:51 am

Since then it is known as the PetroDollar

Nope.

First off, the US still had a gold value for several years after Nixon (see the “Smithsonian Agreement”) and it wasn’t until Oct. l976 that the dollar was officially redefined such that references to gold were removed from the statutes, so “since then” is flat out wrong as there were several years between then and what you mistakenly claim as the “petrodollar” (see next point).

Secondly, As the world’s dominant reserve currency the United States dollar has been a major currency for trading oil, but that is not what a petrodollar is even though it’s sometimes mistakenly referred to as such. The term Petrodollar simply refers to money earned from the sale of oil – IE revenue that state-owned and state-influenced oil companies derive from the sale of oil and the funds that are controlled by oil-exporting countries and have been used to pay for oil imports. Petrodollars are a huge pool of funds available for investment and the purchase of goods and services. While generally referenced in terms of US dollars (due to the dollar being the world’s dominant reserve currency) it’s not the dollar itself and those petrodollar funds can take the form of any currency (even gold).

and we have had endless crashes

We had crashes before, when the dollar was on the gold standard. Does the great depression ring any bells? Speaking of which, it was the countries whose currencies that got off the gold standard the quickest that recovered from the great depression the soonest. Great Britain and the Scandinavian countries, which left the gold standard in 1931, recovered much earlier than France and Belgium, which remained on gold much longer. Countries such as China, which had a silver standard, almost entirely avoided the depression. The connection between leaving the gold standard and the severity and duration of the depression was consistent for dozens of countries, including developing countries.

Perhaps you should spend less time obsessing over conspiracies and more time learning history.

Reply to  John Endicott
April 26, 2019 2:01 am

The 1871 Specie Resumption act sparked crises, and the floating exchange system of today the most. Bretton Woods and Glass Steagall were two vital moves to deal with such globalist fiascos.

The petrodollar is a floating global exchange currency.
The US got out of the Great Depression with first Glass Steagall, then the RFC , the nearest to a national bank FDR could manage at the time. Bretton Woods enabled the WWII reconstruction. The US economy boomed. Since 1974 it declined. Hence Trump’s election program. He is being harassed at every move. For MAGA this issue needs to be addressed.

Anyway interesting how oil gets everyone here into a Dollar discussion – coincidence not!

Reply to  bonbon
April 26, 2019 2:13 am

In other words Trump should start a New Bretton Woods this time with China and Russia on board. Her is now free of the British Russiagate attempted coup.
As regards your patronizing remark, have a look at Trump’s Wednesday tweet on Larry Johnson :
“Former CIA analyst Larry Johnson accuses United Kingdom
Intelligence of helping Obama Administration Spy on the 2016
Trump Presidential campaign. @OANN. WOW! It’s now just a question
of time before the truth comes out, and when it does, it will be
a beauty!”

It is time for a New Bretton Woods! Then let’s see about the Petrodollar. It is lawful that London is having a total fit.

George
Reply to  bonbon
April 25, 2019 4:51 pm

I for one am looking forward to a Fission Dollar. I’m hoping they glow in the dark to make dropped bills at night easier to find.

HD Hoese
April 25, 2019 9:05 am

Ecologists, in applications at least, have been trying to apply environment (takes energy and mass to run one) costs at least since the 50s when two brothers, H. T. and Eugene Odum started using the term “Ecological Engineering.” Their father was a sociologist and some of their students are still around. “Ecosystem Services” is the modern term, often used to justify restoration projects among other things. The important “service” now is to take care of the demons nitrogen and carbon dioxide no matter what it costs.

Interesting ideas they are, difficult to manage and apply. Old wildlife and fisheries managers seemed more down to earth, trained they were alongside scientists, like geologists, not sociologists.

Vangel Vesovski
April 25, 2019 10:42 am

I am sorry but where is the evidence that shale oil gas production is economical? You can’t find it in the SEC filings from the sector. In fact, I could not find a single pure shale producer that has been able to generate enough free cash flow to finance its capital budgets. All of the production outside of the tiny core areas has been financed by adding massive amounts of debt to the balance sheets. That turns the reserves into resources and does little to falsify the Peak Oil hypothesis.

Note that I am not saying that we will run out. And I am positive about natural gas because the Middle East should have plenty of fields that have not yet been discovered because nobody was looking for them when the gas was stranded. My issue is with sneaking in refinery gains, natural gas liquids, and even some unconventional barrels into an aggregate and hiding what is actually going on. When the next contraction comes, the American shale miracle will be exposed for what it always was, a con game. And when all eyes turn to fields like Ghawar, the naive optimists will find that its production has already peaked. It is time to learn how to count and how to think. Let entrepreneurs produce what we need by using coal and nuclear and get the politicians out of their way.

Arthur G Foster
April 25, 2019 10:46 am

RGL: “Can you define a US Dollar?”

I’ll give it a shot. The ‘dollar’ is the basic monetary unit of the United States.

That’s all. ‘Monetary’ is the adjective meaning “having to do with ‘money.'”

‘Money’ is a convenient means of transacting commerce, the value of which means is
agreed upon by the transacting parties. That’s all.

The description of money and its history is a bit more complex; these are some highlights:

While various commonly valued items could serve as money, like salt, animal skins, and so on, the materials of highest value per mass but still in reasonable supply have been metallic, mainly gold, silver, copper, and iron, though not always in that order of evaluation (by weight). Various stages in the evolution of money may be described:
1. Units of weight (e.g., ‘talents’) were agreed upon, by progressively larger communities.
2. Items were produced convenient for carriage, like perforated disks or rings that could be strung and worn as jewelry.
3. Forgoing perforation, at around 600 BC the weight of the disks was stamped on one side, then two, then with a symbol of the authority of the stamping entity or government. When the weight and content of the coin could be trusted, denominations evolved with names. Until modern times there was some equivalence between the stamped value of the coin and its melted value, but of course there was no absolute value for anything. For example, within a few decades of mining the silver of Potosi its global value declined by half.

In the absence of such convenient means for exchange, promissory agreements served as well. These could be verbal, made in the presence of reliable witnesses if necessary and/or in literate societies, notarized with a written document.

Paper money combines the utility of both means of exchange, first appearing (in the US) as the equivalent of a promissory note for the value of a dollar or so many dollars of silver (hence tied to the value of silver), then floating independently of any material backing, but rather dependent on the trust of the issuing bank or government.

As paper money has no intrinsic value, but functions in practice as a promissory note, it paved the way for digital transactions, then bitcoins, which exist in cyberspace and human minds, but function just as well.

The takeaway: supply and demand is a law of nature, not of economists. Nothing has invariable intrinsic value. Without trust paper money is no better than toilet paper, and in time of famine you can’t eat paper, or gold. –AGF

John Endicott
Reply to  Arthur G Foster
April 25, 2019 12:17 pm

in time of famine you can’t eat paper, or gold

well you can (paper easily enough – just chew and swallow, gold however would take some creative methods, like shaving off really small flakes to swallow), but digestion issues and lack of nutritional value means that eating it won’t do you any good

Geo
April 25, 2019 1:18 pm

I must say, as I sit here in CP building in a city and state that will not be named…bravo.

The main problem with Green believers is they are so utterly ignorant of basic facts, costs, economics, engineering reality, etc. etc. If solar or wind made sense, believe me brother, every energy company in America would install windmill and solar panels on their offshore platforms. Every damn one. They’ll do ANYHTING to save a buck or two on production costs.

We invented money precisely so we wouldn’t have to be bothered with silly things like EROEI.

Steve O
April 26, 2019 8:09 am

“Analysing this energy balance between inputs and outputs, however, is complex because the inputs are diverse, and it is not always clear how far back they should be taken in any analysis. For instance, oil expended to move coal to a power station, or electricity used to enrich uranium for nuclear fuel, are generally included in the calculations. But what about the energy required to build the train or the enrichment plant?”

Taking a comprehensively exhaustive approach is much easier than it appears to be. There is a conversion rate between electricity and money. Money can be turned into electricity, and electricity can be turned into money.

To include the “energy content” of the office supplies used by the company that manufactured the train, simply translate the shipping cost into an equivalent amount of electricity.

Steve in Ottawa
April 27, 2019 7:40 am

I’m just going to throw this out there for consideration:

Everything in this physical world has to satisfy physical law. EROEI is just a restatement of the second law of thermodynamics. Locally, I can consume someone else’s energy and not account for it in my ledger. Globally, all local energy ledgers have to add up or else a physical law is being violated.

Regarding money, the “value” of money is defined as the slope of the Global GDP/Global Energy Consumption curve, similar to figure 7 of https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/06/26/poverty-and-energy/

with the starting point running through (0, 0), not (20,000, 10,000) as it does in figure 7, i.e. No energy, no GDP is a fundamental physical boundary condition.

In principle, in a fully free market, since the price (in constant dollars) of any good or service contains all the economic information about that good or service, once you know the price of money, in joules, you can simply convert the price of the good or service into joules. From there you can immediately see how much energy a particular good or service costs and if it’s an energy supply (wind, solar etc) you can calculate how much it produces. From there you know if it is a drain (Jout/Jin 1). In other words EROEI.

Obviously, there isn’t a fully free market, so locally prices don’t necessarily reflect the true energy cost, but globally, GDP and Energy consumption must equal the sum of all the local monetary and energy expenditures.

Anyway, that’s how I see it. If it stimulates new thoughts on the subj of energy and money, great.

Cheers,

Steve