Why climate predictions are so difficult

From Climate Etc.

by Judith Curry

An insightful interview with Bjorn Stevens.

Frank Bosse provided this Google translation of an interview published in Der Spiegel  -Print-Issue 13/2019, p. 99-101.   March 22, 2019

Excerpts provided below, with some minor editing of the translation.

begin quote:

Global warming forecasts are still surprisingly inaccurate. Supercomputers and artificial intelligence should help. By Johann Grolle

It’s a simple number, but it will determine the fate of this planet. It’s easy to describe, but tricky to calculate. The researchers call them “climate sensitivity”.

It indicates how much the average temperature on Earth warms up when the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere doubles. Back in the 1970s, it was determined using primitive computer models. The researchers came to the conclusion that their value is likely somewhere between 1.5 and 4.5 degrees.

This result has not changed until today, about 40 years later. And that’s exactly the problem.

The computational power of computers has risen many millions of dollars, but the prediction of global warming is as imprecise as ever. “It is deeply frustrating,” says Bjorn Stevens of the Hamburg Max Planck Institute for Meteorology.

For more than 20 years he has been researching in the field of climate modeling. It is not easy to convey this failure to the public. Stevens wants to be honest, he does not want to cover up any problems. Nevertheless, he does not want people to think that the latest decades of climate research have been in vain.

“The accuracy of the predictions has not improved, but our confidence in them has grown,” he says. The researchers have examined everything that might counteract global warming. “Now we are sure: she is coming.”

As a decision-making aid in the construction of dykes and drainage channels the climate models are unsuitable. “Our computers do not even predict with certainty whether the glaciers in the Alps will increase or decrease,” explains Stevens.

The difficulties he and his fellow researchers face can be summed up in one word: clouds. The mountains of water vapor slowly moving across the sky are the bane of all climate researchers.

First of all, it is the enormous diversity of its manifestations that makes clouds so unpredictable. Each of these types of clouds has a different effect on the climate. And above all: they have a strong effect.

Simulating natural processes in the computer is always particularly sensitive when small causes produce great effects. For no other factor in the climatic events, this is as true as for the clouds. If the fractional coverage of low-level clouds  fell by only four percentage points, it would suddenly be two degrees warmer worldwide. The overall temperature effect, which was considered just acceptable in the Paris Agreement, is thus caused by four percentage points of clouds – no wonder that binding predictions are not easy to make.

In addition, the formation of clouds depends heavily on the local conditions. But even the most modern climate models, which indeed map the entire planet, are still blind to such small-scale processes.

Scientists’ model calculations have become more and more complex over the past 50 years, but the principle has remained the same. Researchers are programming the earth as faithfully as possible into their computers and specifying how much the sun shines in which region of the world. Then they look how the temperature on their model earth adjusts itself.

The large-scale climatic events are well represented by climate models.

However, problems are caused by the small-scale details: the air turbulence above the sea surface, for example, or the wake vortices that leave mountains in the passing fronts. Above all, the clouds: The researchers can not evaporate the water in their models, rise and condense, as it does in reality. You have to make do with more or less plausible rules of thumb.

“Parametrization” is the name of the procedure, but the researchers know that, in reality, this is the name of a chronic disease that has affected all of their climate models. Often, different parameterizations deliver drastically divergent results. Arctic temperatures, for example, are sometimes more than ten degrees apart in the various models. This makes any forecast of ice cover seem like mere reading of tea leaves.

“We need a new strategy,” says Stevens. He sees himself as obliged to give better decision support to a society threatened by climate change. “We need new ideas,” says Tapio Schneider from Caltech in Pasadena, California.

The Hamburg Max Planck researcher has therefore turned to another type of cloud, the cumulonimbus. These are mighty thunderclouds, which at times, dark and threatening, rise higher than any mountain range to the edge of the stratosphere.

Although this type of cloud has a comparatively small influence on the average temperature of the earth, Stevens explains. Because they reflect about as much solar radiation into space as they hold on the other hand from the earth radiated heat. But cumulonimbus clouds are also an important climatic factor. Because these clouds transport energy. If their number or their distribution changes, this can contribute to the displacement of large weather systems or entire climatic zones.

Above all, one feature makes Stevens’ powerfully spectacular cumulonimbus clouds interesting: They are dominated by powerful convection currents that swirl generously enough to be predictable for modern supercomputers. The researcher has high hopes for a new generation of climate models that are currently being launched.

While most of its predecessors put a grid with a resolution of about one hundred kilometers over the ground for calculations, these new models have reduced the mesh size to five or even fewer kilometers. To test their reliability, Stevens, together with colleagues in Japan and the US, carried out a first comparison simulation.

It turned out that these models represent the tropical storm systems quite well. It therefore seems that this critical part of the climate change process will be more predictable in the future. However, the simulated period was initially only 40 days. “Stevens knows that to portray climate change, he has to run the models for 40 years. Until then it is still a long way.

Stevens, meanwhile, rather fears that it is the cumulonimbus clouds that could unexpectedly cause surprises. Tropical storm systems are notorious for their unpredictability. “The monsoon, for example, could be prone to sudden changes,” he says.

It is possible that the calculations of the fine-mesh computer models allowed to predict such climate surprises early. “But it is also conceivable that there are basically unpredictable climatic phenomena,” says Stevens. “Then we can still simulate so exactly and still not come to any reliable predictions.”

That’s the worst of all possibilities. Because then mankind continues to steer into the unknown.

end quote.

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Michael Ozanne
April 3, 2019 7:54 am

[img]http://carbon-sense.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/garbage-in.gif[/img]

April 3, 2019 8:08 am

Predictions are hard, especially about the future.

Caligula Jones
April 3, 2019 8:08 am

“Why climate predictions are so difficult”

I’m surprised nobody has this yet. As usual, Yogi Berra said it first:

“It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”

Reply to  Caligula Jones
April 3, 2019 8:39 am

It’s even worse than that :

How can models which are unable to reconstruct basic past climate fluctuations, which are fed with garbage data, have any predicting ability about the future ?

It would be truely amazing if they could.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Petit_Barde
April 3, 2019 9:16 am

Well, we live in a world where the MSM can get so much wrong, be infested with so many experts who can, like economists, correctly predict 11 of the last 3 recessions, and still people will spoon up the soma.

BTW, that’s a reference to “Brave New World”, a novel I maintain is far more accurate than “1984”…

Oh, and Uri Geller is back in the news, so not only can frauds find work, they can maintain their fame for literally decades.

Joel Snider
April 3, 2019 8:14 am

I don’t know – a complex system with hundreds of variables of which we don’t even know what they all are? Combined with wide-spread bias – and no little amount of intentional manipulation?

DocSiders
April 3, 2019 8:22 am

In my experience with models, I’ve observed that when you have as few as 3 variables none of which are independent of each other (i.e. feedbacks exist), prediction of outcomes is nearly impossible unless 1 of the 3 variables utterly dominates the other 2 variables in amplitude or the period of prediction is very short (relative to the inverse of the oscillation frequency of the lowest frequency variable).

And this is for “ideal” variable behaviors with no uncertainty (no errors). Add even very low levels of uncertainty to the behaviors and the outcomes of “runs” becomes wildly inconsistent and unpredictable.

Cloud behavior is utter chaos compared to any “controlled 3 variable model”. And the basic science of the drivers of cloud formation and cloud behavior is not well understood yet. You cannot model what you don’t know about…though modeling exercises can certainly be used to help you learn (gain knowledge).

Then, even if clouds should ever be “tamed” within simulations, the entire climate is way more complex! We’ll need about 10 orders of magnitude more data (to characterize geographical regions and various altitudes) and probably dozens of orders of magnitude more computing power.

It’s really fun running models and working with them. Coupling them to sophisticated graphics generators can produce fascinating visual representations.

unning climate modeling projects has value in assisting us in gaining knowledge in lots of ways but it is disturbing that climate models are being used as political tools for asserting knowledge and certainty that absolutely isn’t there.

I scoffed out loud when first I learned that modelers were making confident predictions about climate using models.

I hope I’m wrong about this someday…but I’m pretty certain someday won’t be any day soon. I’m thinking maybe 20 to 30 years. At least 15 years will be needed to test the models.

Rocketscientist
April 3, 2019 8:29 am

RE cumulonimbus clouds:
“If their number or their distribution changes, this can contribute to the displacement of large weather systems or entire climatic zones.”
…um, I would have thought that cumulonimbus clouds were the ‘weather system’ or at least a significant manifestation of it. They don’t cause it they are an effect of it.

Nash
April 3, 2019 8:33 am

“The accuracy of the predictions has not improved, but our confidence in them has grown,” … Isn’t that the opposite of science? Oberservations, collect facts, organize and draws conclusion based on what you found regardless of initial hypothesis .. well, at least what I was taught in HS.

James R Clarke
Reply to  Nash
April 3, 2019 9:49 am

Yes. Climate Change science is not as robust as a poorly done, grade school science fair project. At least the kids try to follow the scientific method. Current climate change science is an assault on the scientific method.

n.n
April 3, 2019 8:39 am

Two possibilities. One, incompletely, or insufficiently, characterized and unwieldy. Two, incorrectly characterized, which leads to not only wrong but divergent conclusions. Either way it’s chaos. The models are hypotheses that have shown no skill to forecast or hindcast without significant heuristic overrides.

SAMURAI
April 3, 2019 8:42 am

CAGW advovates’ get-out-of-jail-free card will be their feigned ignorance of clouds’ effects on global climate.

When CAGW finally crashes and burns, CAGW advocates will simply blame their misunderstanding of clouds to explain why their stupid climate models were so devoid from reality and why they wasted so many $trillions for no reason whatsoever.

I don’t know how many people will buy this BS excuse, but the CAGW advocates will never admit to orchestrating one of the biggest and most expensive hoaxes in human history…

I’ve looked at clouds from both sides now,
From up and down and still somehow,
It’s clouds’ illusions I recall,
I really don’t know clouds at all..

observa
April 3, 2019 8:55 am

“That’s the worst of all possibilities. Because then mankind continues to steer into the unknown.”

Well you could go to church on Sundays like some do and show a bit of humility.

Jim Butts
April 3, 2019 8:59 am

Of course it’s the clouds. And clouds have almost nothing to do with CO2. Must be the sun spots and cosmic rays.

Paul Linsay
April 3, 2019 9:36 am

Some comments by one of Gavin Schmidt’s former grad students. Real Climatologists

When I (Duane Thresher) was at NASA GISS I pointed this out to Dr. Gavin Schmidt, current head of NASA GISS (anointed by former head Dr. James Hansen, the father of global warming) and leading climate change spokesperson. His response was, “We just have to hope they are on the same attractor”, literally using the word “hope”. They are almost certainly not so a climate model can’t predict nature’s climate.

Similarly, some climate modelers study whether climate systems have multiple equilibria — different possible steady-states. If there are multiple equilibria then you can’t predict which equilibrium will occur and thus you can’t predict climate.

There’s a third issue that I have: boundary conditions. For example, ENSO is due to the Pacific trade winds blowing the warm equatorial waters to pile up in the archipelagos of East Asia. When they stop, the water flows east and warms the atmosphere. It’s a big effect that seems to happen with a rough period of about five years and has nothing to do with CO2, it’s been going on for 100s of years. This doesn’t happen in the Atlantic because there’s no place on the coast of South America where the warm water driven by the trade winds can pile up. No Atlantic ENSO because of this. The only real difference here is geography. There must be a bunch of other such effects, though not so obvious, that are also due to geography and strongly affect the temperature of the atmosphere.

Walt D.
April 3, 2019 9:45 am

Global warming forecasts are still surprisingly inaccurate. Supercomputers and artificial intelligence should help
There are some problems that appear relatively innocuous, which cannot be solved by a super computer, now or ever.
Example – calculate the energy levels of the molecule FeS .
Climate Science has at least 2 other problems.
1) Oversimplified models.
2) Insufficient data. (Including historical data).
Even if these 2 difficulties are solved, we will still have computational problems that may be intractable on a classical computer, even a super computer.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Walt D.
April 3, 2019 10:10 am

Actually, the only thing AI could possibly bring to this discussion, (beyond a Terminator scenario…) would be knowing what it doesn’t know, then knowing how – if it could – find out what it doesn’t know.

I won’t hold my breath.

ScienceABC123
April 3, 2019 10:18 am

Lack of accuracy in climate change forecasts makes it clear we do not understand the climate mechanisms as well as we think we do.

On a side note… I think the 10 day weather forecast in my area is being produce by a man who doesn’t want his wife planning his weekends. Every weekend for the past three weeks he predicted significant rain, and we got but a drop.

Mark Luhman
April 3, 2019 10:37 am

“Global warming forecasts are still surprisingly inaccurate. Supercomputers and artificial intelligence should help. By Johann Grolle” No never, the equalizer is time, no matter how smart you are or your computer program is cannot defeat time, by the time you consider and calculate all the variables in climate you might have and accurate prediction the only problem is by the time you get done with the computer run no mater how powerful, fast or smart your computer is, you will complete the predication millions of years after it happen.

James R Clarke
Reply to  Mark Luhman
April 3, 2019 4:26 pm

I am not sure why people believe that computer models know something that humans don’t. The model is a mathematical representation of human understanding. It doesn’t know anything.

Computer models are useful tools for many reasons, including the testing of a hypothesis and identifying our ignorance quicker, but that only works if the humans are willing to admit that they are ignorant.

Indeed, the climate models have been very good at showing us that the hypothesis of a CO2 driven climate is wrong, but they are not coming up with a better hypothesis on their own. The model only does what it is told to do. It knows nothing!

Latimer Alder (@latimeralder)
April 3, 2019 10:39 am

‘Because then mankind continues to steer into the unknown’

Seems to me that whether the average temperature of the Earth is 287K or 289K is not really a matter of much consequence unless one is foolish enough to live within a foot of High Water.

If you do, my advice is to move.

Climate change or not, its a dumb place to build a house.

And yes, I’m looking at you Miami and New Orleans.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Latimer Alder (@latimeralder)
April 3, 2019 11:01 am

Indeed.

Here in Toronto, one of our local radio alarmists loved the idea of a local councillor who wants to sue the oil companies because of CAWG. Worrier-dude went on about “50 year floods becoming 10 year floods” on the Don River, etc.

I don’t call in to these shows, but if I did, I’d remind him that the oil companies would hire experts and ask the city:

1) why are you building anything on a flood plane; and,
2) why does the Don River take a 90 degree turn when it hits Lake Ontario, and do you think that MIGHT be an issue?

Don River
Toronto, ON
43.650672, -79.347188

James R Clarke
Reply to  Caligula Jones
April 3, 2019 4:39 pm

My life, health, well being, freedom, enjoyment of life and so on, are completely dependant on fossil fuels. Can I sue the people who are sueing the oil companies for doing me irreparable harm?

I think I have a much stronger case than they do.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  James R Clarke
April 4, 2019 8:14 am

That’s about it.

To paraphrase the late, great Julian Simon, it must be great to be able to have solved all the world’s problems so that we can argue about who can use the women’s washroom…

Seriously, every “green” person I know lives in a modern city where they would be living a “Walking Dead” episode if the power was out for more than Earth Hour. I mean, look at the panic over the loss of avocado toast if Trump shuts the Mexican border…

The modern world owes its leisure to conspicuous consumption. At least some of us are able to admit it without shame.

Alasdair
April 3, 2019 10:43 am

Predictions are particularly difficult if the hypothesis generating the predictions is predicted to be proved wrong.

April 3, 2019 11:08 am

I tend to try to reduce things down to simplistic terms. Many multiple star systems are ternary; one star orbiting around a binary. We can determine the masses and distances, and have a firm grasp of gravitational forces. Nothing is unknown, per se, but try determining the orbit of a planet in that system. It is affected by only three, moving gravitational forces, yet the problem of plotting its orbit becomes intrinsically difficult. Predict where that planet will be in 40 years? Good luck.

The climate has more than three variables, we are uncertain of the magnitude of each force, do not know the feed-back from each or how the variables respond to each other, and aren’t even sure we know all the potential variables and forcings. Predict where the climate will be in 40 years? Good luck.

Erik Pedersen
April 3, 2019 11:34 am

So we know, weather and climate systems are chaotic and not linear, therefore they are impossible to predict more than few days ahead. To predict or make projections of global climate many decades ahead is utterly nonsense…

Weylan McAnally
Reply to  Erik Pedersen
April 4, 2019 1:31 pm

Truly accurate weather forecasting (not just temperature) is only somewhat accurately predictable a few hours in advance. As an example, two weeks ago in North Texas it was predicted on Friday that there was an 80% of significant rain on Saturday. The vast majority of North Texas received almost zero rain.

When N. Texas received over 12 inches of snow in 2010, the forecast that morning was for a light accumulation of 1 to 2 inches.

Even with current technology we cannot ACCURATELY predict weather more than 24 hours in advance.

Scott
April 3, 2019 11:52 am

“But it is also conceivable that there are basically unpredictable climatic phenomena,” says Stevens.

I have some experience with complex financial models involving many variables. It only takes one bad assumption about a variable: for example, GDP growth, tax rates, interest rates, market share, or how quickly inventory turns to blow up the financial forecast.

With climate, you not only have to be confident you KNOW all of the variables, but that you know how all the variables will behave, correlate and change under various states of nature in what is a chaotic system. I’m not at all confident all the relevant variables have been identified, let alone fullu understand how they all behave and interact with each other.

It has always struck me as arrogance and hubris on steroids.

April 3, 2019 12:07 pm

I was looking for fun on an AR5 ‘state of the art’ climate model.

A comment from there “Occasionally (every 15-20 model years), the model will produce very fast velocities in the lower stratosphere near the pole (levels 7 or 8 for the standard layering). This will produce a number of warnings from the advection (such as limitq warning: abs(a)>1) and then finally a crash (limitq error: new sn < 0")". Translation: the 'state of the art' climate model is pure crap.

In the code, I found 'Celsius' spelled wrong, systematically. They spell it 'Celcius'. The code is plagued with conversions back and forth between Kelvin and Celsius, instead of working with Kelvin only. They describe very complex processes on Earth in a very simplistic manner, the chance of correctly simulating reality like that is practically zero.

Not the first and not the last attempt to look into climate models (one example, here at the end: https://compphys.go.ro/chaos/ ). It's always fun to look into them, it's actually much worse than one exposed to computer models, numerical methods and so on, can imagine. It's way much worse than thought 🙂

April 3, 2019 12:49 pm

I read about the difficulties of using numerical analysis and super computers and wonder, is there a better way? I may be one of the last students who had to learn how to use an analog computer to solve difficult problems requiring integration and differentiation. They do take a lot of planning but they do work to model real world analog systems.

Here is a link to a short article about designing one. https://www.clear.rice.edu/elec301/Projects99/anlgcomp/

The thing about analog computers is that they require one to characterize the signals with a mathematical equation. Wouldn’t that be nice to see. Anything that is “fudged” would be apparent, but it would also be a flashing signal to identify what the modelers don’t know. Instead of playing games with data and coding, scientists would be forced to put their ideas and hypothesis down on paper in the form of mathematic equations. Just imagine having to define in equation form the relationships between radiation, temperature, humidity, convection currents, clouds, atmospheric compositions, and all the characteristics affecting our earthly climate. Just imagine, there would be one input, radiation, from which all things would flow until temperature (or more accurately, heat) could be seen.

When you think about the millions (or billions) being spent on supercomputers, I wonder what kind of analog computer could be made that would quickly, as the article says, let you see what the output would be. As new equations were formulated for different items, aerosols perhaps, we would be getting closer and closer to an accurate science based concept of climate.

Would it be so terrible to have “scientists” actually do science rather than game programming?

ferd berple
April 3, 2019 1:02 pm

“But it is also conceivable that there are basically unpredictable climatic phenomena,” says Stevens
=≠======
It is well known outside of climate science that you cannot reliably predict the future of a complex time series.

And the reason gas nothing to do with climate science. No matter how well you understand climate science.

The problem is that we have no practical mathematical solution to the problem.

Computationally the problem sizes blows up to overwhelm any computer no matter how fast. Doubling the speed of the computer does not double your forecast horizon. Rather it is like CO2. The more you add, the less effective it becomes.

The problem for climate science is that they have gone down a computational dead end.

William Astley
April 3, 2019 1:35 pm

The GCM (general circulation models) climate models have more than 100 parameters that requiring ‘tuning’. The GCMs do not agree with reality and do not agree with each other.

As noted, the GCM cannot be falsified due to political reasons.

We need to have some cooling to change the paradigm.

https://notrickszone.com/2018/12/06/scientists-falsified-climate-models-do-not-employ-known-physics-fullydont-agree-with-reality/

The standard model of physics, for example, is subject to falsification. If it fails to make correct predictions in controlled experiments, it is false. Projections are not good enough there. Even in astrophysics, models explain phenomena that are normally subject to falsification through broad questions asked about multiple occurrences of similar physical circumstances, even in highly data-starved contexts. What makes climate models fundamentally different is that they are presented as being unfalsifiable. Even when they deviate from actual observations, they are not superseded by a better competing model. Deviations simply invite some retuning. Moreover instead of replacement by better models retuning leads to all models becoming more alike.”

Climate Models Don’t Agree With Reality
Problematically, even when they are re-tuned, climate models still yield widely divergent outputs both from one another and compared to observational evidence.
Many new scientific papers have been published in recent months that document the failure of climate models to simulate the Earth’s climate. A sampling of 10 peer-reviewed papers from 2018 are highlighted below.
In several cases, scientists have reported that none of the modern-day climate model results are consistent with real-world observations. In some cases the models yield opposite results (i.e., warming instead of cooling, rising instead of falling, etc.).
It is increasingly being recognized that climate models “not only don’t agree with each other when it comes to dynamics, they also don’t agree with reality” (Essex and Tsonis, 2018).

Unfalsifiable Models

….The refusal to discard climate models that conflict with observations is apparently rooted in politics. Kundzewicz et al. (2018) point out that the “hard” science standard that says results should be quantitatively validated with a measured degree of certainty before formulating policy initiatives is deemed “unrealistic and counterproductive” today. That’s why climate modeling thrives in the modern “soft” political world – a realm where the rigors of observation and falsification — the scientific method — need not apply.

Christopher Chantrill
April 3, 2019 1:43 pm

“But cumulonimbus clouds are also an important climatic factor.”

So, the “scientists” are starting to catch up with Willis “it’s the intertropical convergence zone” Eschenbach.

I guess it was bound to happen sometime.