Location of large mystery source of banned ozone depleting substance uncovered

From the University of Bristol

The compound, carbon tetrachloride, contributes to the destruction of the Earth’s ozone layer, which protects us from harmful ultraviolet radiation.

As a result, the production of carbon tetrachloride has been banned throughout the world since 2010 for uses that will result in its release to the atmosphere. However, recent studies have shown that global emissions have not declined as expected, with about 40,000 tonnes still being emitted each year.

The origin of these emissions has puzzled researchers for many years.

Alongside collaborators from South Korea, Switzerland, Australia and the USA, researchers at the University of Bristol aimed to quantify emissions from eastern Asia.

To do this, they used ground-based and airborne atmospheric concentration data from near the Korean peninsula and two models that simulate the transport of gases through the atmosphere.

Their results, published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, show that around half of the ‘missing’ global emissions of carbon tetrachloride originated from eastern China between 2009 and 2016.

Lead author, Dr Mark Lunt, from the University of Bristol’s School of Chemistry, said: “Our results show that emissions of carbon tetrachloride from the eastern Asia region account for a large proportion of global emissions and are significantly larger than some previous studies have suggested.

“Not only that, but despite the phase out of carbon tetrachloride production for emissive use in 2010, we found no evidence for a subsequent decrease in emissions.”

In fact, emissions from certain regions may have increased slightly since 2010. The results from the study show the emergence of a new source of emissions from the Shandong province of China after 2012.

Mean spatial distribution of posterior emissions from Numerical Atmospheric dispersion Modelling Environment inversions during (a) 2009–2010, (b) 2011–2012, (c) 2013–2014, and (d) 2015–2016. Darker colors represent regions of highest emissions, which are concentrated in eastern China. The borders of Jiangsu and Shandong provinces in China are outlined in gray.

Whilst the results of this and earlier studies in Europe and the USA now explain a large part of the global distribution of carbon tetrachloride emissions, there are still large gaps in our knowledge. Furthermore, recent reports have suggested that very large amounts of this gas may be emitted inadvertently during the production of other chemicals such as chlorine.

Dr Matt Rigby, Reader in Atmospheric Chemistry at the University of Bristol and co-author, said: “Our work shows the location of carbon tetrachloride emissions. However, we don’t yet know the processes or industries that are responsible. This is important because we don’t know if it is being produced intentionally or inadvertently.”

He also added: “There are areas of the world such as India, South America and other parts of Asia, where emissions of ozone-depleting gases may be ongoing, but detailed atmospheric measurements are lacking.”

It is hoped that this work can now be used by scientists and regulators to identify the cause of these emissions from eastern Asia. Ultimately, if these emissions can be avoided, it would hasten the recovery of the stratospheric ozone layer.

Dr Lunt said: “Studies such as this show the importance of continued monitoring of ozone-depleting gases. There is a temptation to see ozone depletion as a problem that has been solved. But the monitoring of man-made ozone-depleting gases in the atmosphere is essential to ensure the continued success of the phase-out of these compounds.”

###

The paper:

Continued Emissions of the Ozone‐Depleting Substance Carbon Tetrachloride From Eastern Asia

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2018GL079500

Abstract

Carbon tetrachloride (CCl4) is an ozone‐depleting substance, accounting for about 10% of the chlorine in the troposphere. Under the terms of the Montreal Protocol, its production for dispersive uses was banned from 2010. In this work we show that, despite the controls on production being introduced, CCl4 emissions from the eastern part of China did not decline between 2009 and 2016. This finding is in contrast to a recent bottom‐up estimate, which predicted a significant decrease in emissions after the introduction of production controls. We find eastern Asian emissions of CCl4 to be 16 (9–24) Gg/year on average between 2009 and 2016, with the primary source regions being in eastern China. The spatial distribution of emissions that we derive suggests that the source distribution of CCl4 in China changed during the 8‐year study period, indicating a new source or sources of emissions from China’s Shandong province after 2012.

Plain Language Summary

Carbon tetrachloride is one of several man‐made gases that contribute to the depletion of the ozone layer high in the atmosphere. Because of this, restrictions were introduced on the use of this ozone‐depleting substance, with the expectation that production should by now be close to 0. However, the slower than expected rate of decline of carbon tetrachloride in the atmosphere shows this is not the case, and a large portion of global emissions are unaccounted for. In this study we use atmospheric measurements of carbon tetrachloride from a site in East Asia to identify the magnitude and location of emissions from this region between 2009 and 2016. We find that there are significant ongoing emissions from eastern China and that these account for a large part of the missing emissions from global estimates. The presence of continued sources of this important ozone‐depleting substance indicates that more could be done to speed up the recovery of the ozone layer.

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142 thoughts on “Location of large mystery source of banned ozone depleting substance uncovered

  1. Would this be the same China that has tripled their CO2 emissions since the UN/IPCC was formed? With the UN/IPCC’s blessings?
    ..and the same China that now emits twice as much CO2 as we do?

    That we would have to cut our emissions to zero just to break even?

    • And is it the same China that is lauded by the BBC , all the newspapers in UK, and all our politicians as leading the world in tackling global warming . So much so that we in the West must bow our heads in shame, and empty our pockets in an attempt at rehabilitation.

      • … the same China which is now held by the freedom loving left as a model for govt which we should follow if we want to “cure global warming”.

        The same Montreal Protocal which was based on drawing a straight line through two major volcanic events and pretending that ozone reduction was due to CFCs.

        • … the same China which is now held by the freedom loving left as a model for govt …

          You can have a lot of freedom in China. You can do all kinds of crap and you probably won’t get caught. The trouble is that, if you do get caught, you can be executed. link

          • Not when they get their ‘social scoring’ system fully implemented. China has plans to deploy over 250 million cameras and monitor their version of the Internet. Fairly soon almost everything a Chinese citizen does/says and who says what in their presence will be recorded and monitored and a ‘social grade’ will be assigned. That grade affects your job, travel, cost of goods, stores you may go to, educational opportunities, etc. It even extends to the what people around you say, if a family member of yours is critical of the Govt in your presence, your ‘score’ is impacted. It’s a nightmare.

      • …and the same China that believes in sea level rise so much

        That they are spending $trillions building artificial islands all over the South China Sea..
        ….lower than Miami and New York

        • They are building artificial island to extend their sea borders and exclusion zones, it has very little to do with climate.

          • But, if they actually thought the sea was going to rise much, they would’ve built up their artificial island to sit higher out of the water today.
            You’re welcome.

          • it has very little to do with climate.

            exactly, the islands they are building are lower than the Maldives
            …the Chinese do not believe in sea level rise at all

          • Much of the plastic that China dumps in the sea originates from other countries such as the UK. Who paid China vast sums for “recycling”. Dumb koalas.

    • @Latitude said “Would this be the same China that has tripled their CO2 emissions since the UN/IPCC was formed? With the UN/IPCC’s blessings?”
      Confusing ? Are you suggesting that the UN/IPCC blessed China emissions of CCL4? I think you are talking only about China being given relief from meeting CO2 standards, not CCL4?
      Re CCL4 – what relief would you suggest? International sanctions? To my knowledge there were no punitive actions defined in the Montreal Accords for violators, … or where there. If so China should be assigned maximum sanctions for failure to meet Montreal !!

      • I’m not suggesting anything…

        I’m saying flat out….the only thing the UN/IPCC has accomplished..is increasing the world’s emissions..and increasing the level of CO2 in the atmosphere

        …the UN/IPCC doesn’t even believe the crap science they are pushing

        • You are right, China, not the West, will provide the world the first obvious example of Orwell’s 1984. And it’s happening, gradually, right before our eyes, while the democrats applaud.

    • Latitude, I get your point, but this research paper is a load of absolute garbage from start to finish.
      Another deception, like CO2 changing the climate of the Earth. Only this time it’s aimed at China and Asia, and India etc instead of the West.

    • yup! that’d be the one;-)
      and I am damned sure this isnt NEW news by about 2 or 3 years
      i remember reading an item where they tracked it back to a chinese company claiming green credits for removal or recycling? some product that in the process created this emission in higher degrees than the original product left alone would have..
      there was some huge amount of money filtered off for their greenery..
      aargh brain farts as to where i read it right now..

  2. And yet we are still just getting along fine, generally getting richer, healthier and living longer.

    • If you think Americans are getting healthier and living longer you need to look again. Even the French are getting fat now as they adopt US eating habits.

      • US life expectancy is greatly skewed by accidents, etc. Remove that and our health habits don’t have nearly the influence some wish they did.

        • US life expectancy is greatly skewed by . . .

          All such comparisons need an addendum. Same for Greg’s comment. I’m neither fat nor unhealthy. The USA is a big diverse country.
          For example, what lengths are gone to in each country to bring newborn babies (and pre-born, too) through life threating medical issues? In the USA, the expectation is that babies will live, so folks try hard to make that happen. Not so in some other places.

          • The first day in a new-born’s life is the most dangerous. When babies die at birth or soon after, Japan and some other countries do not count the death in their life-expectancy figures. The U.S. does. So the world needs to have one standard if we want to compare life expectancy.

        • life expectancy is greatly skewed by ….. one’s inherited DNA.

          but in the 20th and 21st Century, life expectancy has been greatly skewed by ….. one’s lifestyle choices.

          deaths due to drug overdoses now exceed deaths by vehicle accidents.

      • Back to grasshoppers and honey, I say. Or at least chocolate covered ants. Sorrels, Docks and Lambsquarter for your greens. 🥗🦗🐜😉

    • It needs to be mentioned that the scientist who “showed” that CFC’s broke down the ozone layer recanted 20 years later, admitting to having been paid by Dupont Chemical to produce his false results. In fact, ozone layer ozone is subject to solar UV interacting with N2 gas in the cold upper Antarctic atmosphere.

      However, we persist in demonizing CFCs and CCl4 despite the fact that the demonization of CFCs was a plot by Dupont Chemical to rid the world of their out-of-patent refrigerant and replace it with their patented, more expensive refrigerant. Now that this “new” refrigerant is out of patent, Dupont seeks to have it, an HFC, also banned to allow another alternate can be imposed.

      • Please post some evidence of your assertion.
        I recall the period and followed it closely.
        I have never heard any credible version of that story.

      • Reacanted? Source please.

        Was the science at the time settled? No.
        Was DuPonts CFCs division profitable at the time? Debatable. (relevant patents expired 1979)
        Did Dupont leverage environmentalist connections to get CFC legislation enacted? Yes.
        Were DuPont instrumental in drafting the Montreal protocols? Yes.
        Would DuPont come to profit from the regulatory changes? Yes.

        More info: BUSINESS STRATEGY AND THE ENVIRONMENT, VOL6, 276±286 (1997)
        THERE’S MONEY IN THE AIR: THE CFC BAN AND DUPONT’S REGULATORY STRATEGY

        https://eng.ucmerced.edu/people/awesterling/SPR2014.ESS141/Assignments/DuPont

        • Lurker
          Nice link, thanks.

          You will note that the reduction in polar ozone over Antarctica directly coincides with the increase in global temperatures. Cause and effect.

      • If that is true this guy should be treated as a serial killer. The number of deaths from fridges and freezers catching fire thanks to flammable coolants has run into hundreds in the UK alone.

        • that plus the insanity of placing sealed backs on plastic crap fridges so they dont get air and cannot be got to with a fire extinguisher at all.
          as well as the best BFC extinguishers also being banned for “polluting”

    • HFCs don’t like the North Pole – presumably because it’s to warm.

      So they migrate to the Southern Hemisphere – and after crossing the equator, they start their climb to the mesosphere.

      Then after arriving in the mesosphere – despite their weight – they regroup over the South Pole, wait for spring and then start their death dive towards Antarctica.

      It’s an endless battle – it occurs every spring and in the end the ozone always wins.

      Rumor has it they’re plotting a preempt attack on Sun.

      • Exactly. Those dastardly molecules!
        The ozon hole has nothing to do with the much lower temperature at the South Pole…

  3. If the map is trustworthy and accurate, we have a rather specific location that ought to be investigated.

    • As it may be put in a “R. October” theme:

      “Are you telling me, you just found out you being missing another
      “modeled hot spot” out there …for quite a while?!)…another one??!!, really?!!!!”

      cheers

    • It’s accurate and there have been many arrests in China but the problem is large and organized. It is mainly CFC-11 and CFC-12 used by plastics companies.

  4. That’s a very large and heavy particle to be reaching the upper atmosphere. How was this proven exactly? Apologies, this is the first I have heard of this.

    With that put out there, it should be relatively easy to prevent it from occurring using a charged field or grating on the exhaust of any plant that’s outputting this molecule.

    Please do correct me if I am misguided on any of this.

    • I’ve said this on WUWT before, but here it is again:
      Chlorofluorocarbons are heavier than air. The ozone layer is above the tropopause. Any questions?

        • O3 is created by the dissociation of O2 by Ultraviolet Radiation from the Sun. Hence there is little Ozone over the poles due to the incident angle of the Sun being low with subsequent low solar irradiance. Ozone levels decline over the poles in each respective winter as there is no UV radiation to create Ozone. O3 is an unstable molecule with a half life that is dependent on temperature. At 20 C its 3 days. At -25 C its 8 days. The temperature of the Stratosphere is ~ -3 C, so the normal half life of Stratospheric Ozone is presumably about 5 days. And it’s being continually regenerated by the Sun. A true renewable resource.

        • “It’s not heavy enough.”

          Molecular Mass
          (approximations)
          O2 ~= 16*2 = 32
          O3 ~= 16*3 = 48
          N2 ~= 14*2 = 28
          Ar ~= 40*1 = 40

          Thus
          Air ~= .78*N2+.21*O2+.01*Ar ~= 29

          C ~= 12
          Cl ~= 35.5

          Thus
          CCl4 ~= 12+35.5*4 = 154

          Yes, O2 (32) is heavier than air (29). It’s in the stratosphere.
          Yes. O3 (48) is heavier than air (29). It’s in the stratosphere.
          Both these molecules are on the same order of molecular mass as air.

          CCl4 (154) is about 5.3 times heavier than air (29), and about 4.8 times heavier than oxygen (32). CCl4 (154) does not compare to O2 (32) or O3 (48). The idea that CCl4 can be injected into the stratosphere from natural mixing processes in the troposphere and then stay there is folly.

          The ozone layer is not at the bottom of the stratosphere. It is formed from O2 being bombarded by solar UV, and so naturally it is higher. How does an ~5x heavier molecule migrate up through still stratospheric gases to reach ozone layer? Folly.

          • coaldust,

            if you put a few drops of a perfume on the floor, just wait a few minutes and at the other side of the room you will notice the scent of the perfume, although some of its substances may have a molecular weight going into the thousands…

            Sand that is orders of magnitude heavier than air is lifted for thousands of km from one place to the next.
            Brownian motion together with uplifting air, like tropical thunderstorms, can lift any heavy molecule even into the stratosphere…

          • Coaldust,

            Ozone also exists in the troposphere, although not generally in a well-defined layer.

            And not just big molecules, but fairly large, massive particles, even microbes, can be and are wafted high in the sky. Water droplets in clouds have to get pretty big before they fall, with size dependent upon T and other conditions.

          • Not folly, it’s standard physics of gases, diffusion and turbulent transport. What makes you think the stratosphere is ‘still’, the winds there are in the range of 100 mph.

          • The problem with the idea of CCl4 mixing/diffuing up to the ozone layer, which is more or less in the middle of the stratosphere, is that the stratosphere resists *vertical* mixing. This is why it is stratified and why it is called the stratosphere. How can a heavy molecule mix vertically in a part of the atmosphere that resists vertical mixing? Color me unconvinced.

          • Coaldust,
            When diffusion is the only mixing agent in the atmosphere the partial pressure of CCl₄ drops 5.3 times faster than the air pressure.
            For example at ~6 km height the air pressure is half the value at the surface, the partial pressure of CCl₄ is 2.5% of the surface value (= 0.5^5.3).

          • The problem with the idea of CCl4 mixing/diffuing up to the ozone layer, which is more or less in the middle of the stratosphere, is that the stratosphere resists *vertical* mixing. This is why it is stratified and why it is called the stratosphere.

            No, it resists thermal mixing because it is heated from above, diffusion and turbulent transport still mixes molecules in it however. That’s why it’s called the homosphere, because the composition is constant up through about 60 miles.

            How can a heavy molecule mix vertically in a part of the atmosphere that resists vertical mixing? Color me unconvinced.

          • Sand that is orders of magnitude heavier than air is lifted for thousands of km from one place to the next.
            Brownian motion together with uplifting air, like tropical thunderstorms, can lift any heavy molecule even into the stratosphere…

            You can accurately time the next red tide…by watching the Saharan dust move across the Atlantic

          • Interesting. Thanks for the lesson.
            I didn’t doubt it could reach the altitude, just wasn’t sure how likely it would be.

      • Isn’t H2O lighter than air?…..if it is, should it all float to the top of the atmosphere and escape into space?

      • @coaldust

        Diffusion doesn’t care what the bulk density of a vapor is. Those molecules will wander wherever they want to.

        • Diffusion doesn’t care about bulk anything. It is the mass of the individual molecules that matters in a gravity well. Ever seen liquids of similar properties separate? Yep, gravity.

          Yes there will be some diffusion, but significantly heavier molecules will tend to be closer to the earth.

          • The atmosphere is a gas not a liquid and the physics of molecular motion is much different. The observation is that atmospheric composition is constant up to about 60 miles.

    • That’s a very large and heavy particle to be reaching the upper atmosphere. How was this proven exactly? Apologies, this is the first I have heard of this.

      It’s transported via turbulent transport and diffusion, the lower part of the atmosphere in which gas molecules are subject to such mixing is termed the ‘Homosphere’.
      “The homosphere is the lower of the two and the location in which turbulent mixing dominates the molecular diffusion of gases. In this region, which occurs below 100 km (about 60 miles) or so, the composition of the atmosphere tends to be independent of height.”
      This does not include condensible gases such as water.

      With that put out there, it should be relatively easy to prevent it from occurring using a charged field or grating on the exhaust of any plant that’s outputting this molecule.

      Depending how it is being released into the atmosphere there should be a method of scrubbing it. When I was an undergrad carbontet was an almost universal solvent for cleaning up in the orgo labs. It was the pervasive smell when you walked in!

    • David,
      It will take you only 1/2 hour of internet searching and reading to learn more than you need to know.
      Just don’t read only a couple of things. This is an old issue.

    • David.,

      If wind and air circulation can lift far heavier sand dust from the Sahara and dispose that in my country at 3000 km away (the same for sand from the Mongolian desert into Arizona…), then it is no trouble for air molecules to lift off CO2 and other heavier molecules from ground level up to the stratosphere (with heavy thunderstorms)…

      Only when in stagnant air, as is the case in the formation of ice cores from firn, there will occur a slight (less than 1%) increase of CO2 at the bottom of the still open pores over 40 (or more) years time, just before closing the air bubbles (for which enhancement is compensated in the measurements). The same for the heavier isotopes in N2, O2, Ar,… in ratio to their atomic/molecular weights. The change in 15N/14N ratio is used as reference for the enhancement.

      See further Brownian motion at:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion

  5. If CO2 were a problem…but it’s trumped all hollow by the solar cycle. See the ‘Hunger Stones’ essay. The hunger stones provide a time series that has not been fudged.

  6. Gee, who would have thought the culprit would be the People’s Republic of China, apparently the Shanghai area, polluting the planet? [sarc]

    China wants to become the greatest power on the planet. They want the 21st Century to be the China century. They see nothing wrong with using every means necessary to reach that goal. At least some of their leaders believe it is only fair since Western powers ripped them off in the 18th and 19th Century.

    Just think about fentanyl. Why would China be the number one producer and exporter of illegal fentanyl in the world? They are using the opium analogy.

    • Indeed, they probably use the same logic as the opium traders from Boston did, it was a way to make money. Certain irony there.

  7. Eastern Asia! Why is there so much walking on eggshells when it comes to China? Global planners must have decreed that we soften any criticism of this country and give them passes on every transgression. The Totes having adopted the China Model for global governance, we wouldnt want to display any “uncertainties” now would we? I know, I know Moshe, everything is models, its all legit.

  8. Now that CO2 is rapidly running out of steam, O3 is again the bogeyman.
    All from the “Endangered Atmosphere” conference decades ago.

  9. This doesn’t include major volcanic eruptions.

    This report doesn’t explain how a heavy, ground-hugging chemical could get up into the stratosphere in significant amounts to affect the ozone layer. In fact, it was widely used as a fire extinguisher because of its ground-hugging properties.

    Meanwhile, major volcanic eruptions such as the Pinotubo eruption injected megatons of highly unstable HCl and HFl into the stratosphere, as well as CO2, where the lighter halogens with their high attraction to carbon could displace the oxygen in CO2 to make halogenated carbons—CFl4, CCl4, CFl2Cl2, and similar combinations. How then are volcanos not the major source of halogenated carbons in the stratosphere?

    By the way, stratospheric ozone is created by absorbing certain UV rays, naturally breaks down with a half-life from minutes to hours depending on weather conditions, so what would you expect to find in the atmosphere over Antartica during their winter?

    • This report doesn’t explain how a heavy, ground-hugging chemical could get up into the stratosphere in significant amounts to affect the ozone layer. In fact, it was widely used as a fire extinguisher because of its ground-hugging properties.

      As I pointed out above, like all the gases in the homosphere it’s mixed by turbulent transport.

      Meanwhile, major volcanic eruptions such as the Pinotubo eruption injected megatons of highly unstable HCl and HFl into the stratosphere, as well as CO2, where the lighter halogens with their high attraction to carbon could displace the oxygen in CO2 to make halogenated carbons—CFl4, CCl4, CFl2Cl2, and similar combinations. How then are volcanos not the major source of halogenated carbons in the stratosphere?
      Because HCl and HF are water soluble and get washed out of the atmosphere.

      By the way, stratospheric ozone is created by absorbing certain UV rays, naturally breaks down with a half-life from minutes to hours depending on weather conditions, so what would you expect to find in the atmosphere over Antartica during their winter?
      As well as being created due to UV radiation O3 is also destroyed by UV. Consequently during the Austral winter you’d expect O3 to remain ~constant, as is observed. Then in the spring you’d expect stratO3 to drop due to release from the PSCs and UV.

  10. I thought it was CFCs that were gobbling up the O3, which is great up high, but bad down low, but now it’s good ol’ CarbonTet? I can’t keep up with this nonsense. We should be worried about 40,000 tonnes of CCl4 when mega-tonnes of Cl2 are exuded by the oceans on a regular basis. But the Cl only attacks O3 over the poles, and only when the sun don’t shine? I’m confused!

    • But the Cl only attacks O3 over the poles, and only when the sun don’t shine? I’m confused!

      You are indeed confused! Ozone is destroyed when the sun shines (specifically UV). It is worse over the poles in spring when any PSCs start to break down releasing Ci compounds and UV reappears

    • It is apparently due to micro ice crystals in the high polar atmosphere. An interesting recap of Molina and Sherwood’s work and the supporting evidence is given here: https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/ozone_depletion_10.

      Note that the process is 90% dependent on models and while there is qualitative evidence there is not that much quantitative evidence. It seems chemical ozone depletion is correct but whether it is the major problem it is presented as is not certain, only time and further understanding will tell.

  11. I’m surprised they did not blame the Syria govt.. Usually blamed for any existence of chlorine in the air.

  12. carbon tet : an excellent degreasing agent for mechanical work. My last precious stock ran out a few years ago. At least we know where we can go to order it now. 😉

      • ha, many years ago I got a summer job in southern Germany.

        They had a big open vat of trike heated to have a cloud of vapour that we dunked machine parts into. The vapour condensed onto the cold parts and washed them. Very nice smell 😉

        Zero workplace security, so I just held by breath when I went near it. worked for 60s then ran out of the ‘shop to breath. The managers office was on the way out but I think he knew not to ask me why I kept running in and out.

        I’m sure they still have to work like that in China

  13. The ozone problem is another big scam. It preceded the CO2 scam. Both were UN driven. Many countries ignore the prohibition of production and use of so called ozone depleting chemicals. Argentina being a prime example. I wouldn’t be surprised if all of South America ignore the rules. Of course China ignores the rules as well as other Asian counties. Only the North western democracies are saps enough to continue abiding by this scam. As others have pointed out , ozone depletion has nothing to do with these chemicals. One has to ask a fundamental question. Why would an ozone hole only show up in the Antarctica? There are no factories in Antarctica.

    • Alan,
      Explain why there is heroin in New York City. There are no opium poppy fields in Central Park. Okay, maybe there are.

      Seriously, the atmosphere is dynamic.

    • Those ‘others’ that you refer to, like you, don’t know what they’re talking about. I have pointed out in this post why the hole forms at the S Pole.

    • ditto that bro, i’m in Thailand and once the man came to fix the air-con, sure enough it was good’ol freon.. GOOD I want something that works, not some shitty chem that sets my apartment on fire while i’m on the fking 25th floor [scream!]

  14. When I was a pre-teen in the late forties, my two neighbourhood buddies and I would go to the dry cleaners to get a small vial of carbon tet. to kill insects for our collections. No problem. The owner knew us and was glad to donate to the cause. How times have changed.

    • Interesting link , thanks.

      What is the ozone hole?
      Each year for the past few decades during the Southern Hemisphere spring, chemical reactions involving chlorine and bromine cause ozone in the southern polar region to be destroyed rapidly and severely.

      So before they even define what it is supposed to be they start attribution claims.

      It is calculated from the area on the Earth that is enclosed by a line with a constant value of 220 Dobson Units.

      So, it’s not a “hole” it’s an “iso-ozone” contour.

      The value of 220 Dobson Units is chosen since total ozone values of less than 220 Dobson Units were not found in the historic observations over Antarctica prior to 1979.

      The definition of “hole” is based on what it was when systematic observations were started. The usual mentality of if anything changes it “abnormal” and humans are defacto cause.

      Also, from direct measurements over Antarctica, a column ozone level of less than 220 Dobson Units is a result of the ozone loss from chlorine and bromine compounds.

      Circular logic.

      Their attitude and bias is so strong they do not even pretend to be objective. This is not science it is climate activism.

      • What is the ozone hole?
        Each year for the past few decades during the Southern Hemisphere spring, chemical reactions involving chlorine and bromine cause ozone in the southern polar region to be destroyed rapidly and severely.
        So before they even define what it is supposed to be they start attribution claims.

        It is calculated from the area on the Earth that is enclosed by a line with a constant value of 220 Dobson Units.
        So, it’s not a “hole” it’s an “iso-ozone” contour.

        No it’s the region in the atmosphere where a hole forms in the ozone layer, typically between 14 and 20 km atmosphere.
        https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ozwv/ozsondes/spo/iadv/SPO_2018-10-19.21.png
        The ozone concentration drops over the span of ~6 weeks from the maximum (green line on graph) to ~0 in that region.
        The 220DU contour outlines the region where such a depletion occurs.

        • thanks for the link but what I quoted was what they provide as definition under “What is the ozone hole?”

          If you have a better definition, maybe you could suggest they post that instead.

          • Who is they? Also not much wrong with the definition, the following might be a little clearer:
            Each year for the past few decades during the Southern Hemisphere spring, chemical reactions involving chlorine and bromine cause ozone in the southern polar stratosphere to be destroyed rapidly and severely.
            This is an observation, not a supposition.
            The elimination of the ozone layer in that region causes the total ozone to drop below the 220 DU level. Therefore the satellite measure of the total ozone allows us to evaluate the extent of that region.

    • That’s OK. Agit prop from the progressives. Just trash that. But when a president says we need to mitigate CAGW ‘by all means’, I truly wonder what he thought ‘all means’ might mean.

      And this is a president from the conservative end we have. We’re doomed.

  15. The ozone layer is generated continually by the sun UVs (thousands of TW) hitting O2 which represent 21% of the earth atmosphere, and destroyed continually by other UVs hitting O3 and O3 self-destructing. The ozone layer results from an dynamic equilibrium between the sun and the atmosphere, there is no way some ppb of any chemical product can interfere with it. This equilibrium is changed at the poles which receive far less UVs during winter, and lack of air mixing at the south pole result in a fall of ozone at the end of winter. If you look around the ozone hole you find an excess of O3 (450du) because of the impossible mixing with the antarctic air.

    • The ozone layer results from an dynamic equilibrium between the sun and the atmosphere, there is no way some ppb of any chemical product can interfere with it. This equilibrium is changed at the poles which receive far less UVs during winter, and lack of air mixing at the south pole result in a fall of ozone at the end of winter.

      You should read up on photochemistry and reaction kinetics because it’s clear from this that you don’t have a clue about what happens.

      • Enlighten us, then, with your vast knowledge of photochemistry and reaction kinetics as they apply to Stratospheric Ozone Depletion theory. Please include your hypothesis, experimental methodology, your data, your analysis, and your conclusions. Also, please tell us from where you have a degree in Chemisty or Chemical Engineering and what level your degree is (BS, MS, PhD). In other words convince us with by using the Scientific Method and show us you have credibility in the field of Chemistry or Reaction Kinetics. I have a BS in Chemical Engineering from THE Ohio State University so I and other knowledgeable people on this board will be able to comprehend your response.

        • PhD in Physical Chemistry, thesis on reaction kinetics, ran a top laboratory on laser diagnostics using photochemistry for 20 years plus. Wrote over 50 scientific papers on these two subjects.

          The following diagram shows that the hole in the ozone layer at the south pole occurs between 14 and 20 km altitude where in the spring the former maximum is eradicated. This altitude range is the region where the temperature drops below -79ºC allowing Polar Stratospheric Clouds to form. These clouds are formed from aqueous nitric acid solutions. HCl and ClONO2 react on the surface of the cloud particles liberating Cl2, since this is winter and there is no sunlight the chlorine is unreactive. Additionally some of the HNO3 particles precipitate out of the atmosphere thereby removing NO2 which would otherwise produce NO2 which would deactivate any active chlorine. In the spring when sunlight returns the Cl2 is photolysed producing chlorine radicals which react with O3 and produce Cl2O2 (via ClO) and O2 as a product. This Cl2O2 is then photolysed to regenerate Cl which can then react with O3. As a result each atom of chlorine can remove thousands of molecules of O3 before it is finally deactivated by some other reaction. The various Cl species are observed in the stratosphere using ground-based, aircraft, balloon and satellite instruments.

  16. 40,000 tons is hardly a significant amount of pollution on a global scale.
    Nice detective work, and a good insight into China’s game playing.
    But a trivial impact on anything.

    • It’s certainly significant when compared with the concentration of atmospheric CCl4 of the order of parts per trillion.

      • 40kt over several years in an atmosphere that masses in the Trillions of tons, and is exposed to water, clouds, UV, biome, minerals, etc.
        So yes, 40kt is trivial at most.

  17. “we don’t know if it is being produced intentionally or inadvertently” Already lined up for an excuse before the investigation so China will get another pass at destroying the environment. But it’s all a conspiracy theory….. isn’t it?

  18. Errrrrr, hello Bristol.
    It was a joke. By DuPont

    They set up a huuuuuge party in Montreal where everyone could get stupid and have a good time.
    Nothing intrinsically wrong with that but in the midst of all the fun, DuPont dropped A Stinker – a massive and blatant scientific-sounding porky-pie. Concerning ozone and a refrigerant gas that they manufactured and that was going to go ‘out of patent’ in the near future.

    And nobody had the brains, the guts or where-with-all to stand up and say “Sorry, I don’t get it”
    Nobody.
    Net result now is that every refrigeration device now made has about 50% of the efficiency of devices made prior to the Montreal Party.
    How many years later and you, Bristol, still haven’t got it.
    Suggest you try thinking for yourselves and NOT relying on what NASA says.

    And my today adventure took me to a tyre depot. Hooda thunk I’d find ozone there but I did.
    2 little metal bottles, like camping gas (Propane or Butane) but a blue/green colour.

    The Small Print on a small label told us “12kg of R134a”
    Lovely, for fixing air-cons.

    But the Large Print, on an unmissable, self-important& huuuge white sticky-on label told us that these bottles contained:
    “A Greenhouse Gas controlled and authorised by the Kyoto Protocol”

    Kyoto?

    • Refrigerators mostly use isobutane in Europe and are always bursting into flames. That’s what started the Grenfell tower fire. The cladding probably released some CFCs and HFCs.

      • Yep, thanks for pointing that out. That kind of thing is the insanity that you get when you pretend that the existence of the human race and all life of Earth depends on something being done. Priorities get turned upside down and some very stupid and unnecessary things are deemed “necessary”.

        We have the eco-warriors to thanks for that catastrophe.

  19. “The results show that the source of carbon tetrachloride is located in the northeast near a chemical plant in the study area, whose pollutant concentration is diminishing from northeast to southwest. The main reasons to the pollution are that factories discharge waste water at random, leakage of open channel and culvert, sewage
    irrigation and the vulnerability of geological conditions in this area.”

    http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/82/1/012058/pdf

  20. One sentence in that report I don’t think can be right:

    Furthermore, recent reports have suggested that very large amounts of this gas may be emitted inadvertently during the production of other chemicals such as chlorine.

    Chlorine is produced by the electrolysis of a salt solution (mostly NaCl, sometimes KCl), there is no carbon source present to form CCl4, so that is not directly possible…
    It may be formed by the chlorination of other compounds, of which vinyl chloride monomer (for PVC) is the largest industrial production, but that is not directly from chlorine manufacturing…

    • I doubt that’s it’s only use. It’s also likely a byproduct of some other process. Chemistry is funny that way.

  21. This man made chem is 10% of chlorides in the troposphere that deplete ozone? I seriously doubt that! this is just like the freon scam:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc2M_FKyvaE

    chlorine is blasted out of volcanoes all the time and it depletes ozone, then the sun just manufactures more ozone .. all of this stuff is a scam, the amount of chlorides humans put into the atmosphere is nothing and these hevy molecules are less liky to go up that high.

  22. @Bill Marsh
    October 29, 2018 at 10:02 am
    “Fairly soon almost everything a Chinese citizen does/says and who says what in their presence will be recorded and monitored and a ‘social grade’ will be assigned. That grade affects your job, travel, cost of goods, stores you may go to, educational opportunities, etc”
    It’s already in place:

    https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/1056811593177227264

  23. This is a perfect opportunity to study where the carbon tet goes, and what happens to it. We have a known source near sea level. Take samples via plane and balloon to track it. The weather models for wind can give a good direction to start with. We could use this for some real science, including determining how much carbon tet gets into the stratosphere, and can we see a depletion of the ozone above the plume, etc.

    • Actually this is the opposite of what they did to locate the source, they made measurements at various locations and used weather model to trace it back to the origin.

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