Listen up comrade! You WILL buy solar panels whether you like it or not.
As if housing in California isn’t already overpriced and out-of-reach enough, now there’s this hare-brained scheme. From the LA Times:
California heads toward requiring solar panels on all new houses
California is set to become the first state to require solar panels on all newly built single-family houses. The mandate is expected to save buyers money in the long run but also raise their upfront costs at a time many are already struggling to afford a mortgage.
The state’s Energy Commission is scheduled to vote Wednesday on the rules, which are expected to pass and take effect in 2020. The regulations, which would also apply to new multifamily buildings of three stories or fewer, don’t need the approval of the Legislature.
The new building standards — which also include updated insulation mandates — are a piece of California’s ambitious plan to slash greenhouse gas emissions in coming decades. That will require sweeping policy changes to promote renewable energy, electric vehicles and even denser neighborhoods where people have to drive less for daily trips.
“This is going to be a significant increase in the solar market in California,” Kelly Knutsen of the trade group California Solar & Storage Assn. said of the new requirement. “We are also sending a national message that … we are a leader in the clean energy economy.”
…
If the new rules added $9,500 to the sales price of an otherwise $530,000 home, a buyer putting 20% down would need to cough up an additional $1,900 for the down payment, according to a mortgage calculator from online brokerage Redfin.
Monthly mortgage payments would rise by $50 if the buyer took out a 30-year mortgage at 4.39% interest.
Full story here
h/t to Willis for the LA Times article
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Commiefornia.
This is just too silly. Even communists and dictators do not force the purchase of solar panels. This is a religion. A belief in a carbon God. A new line added onto the Book of the Dead. Expect carbon churches, carbon priests, drunk liberal politicians who lecture us on carbon pollution while they pay themselves more before jetting off to carbon conferences. Californian liberals are classic spivs.
Not silly at all Geoff, when you buy a brand new car, you are “forced” to buy a catalytic converter, even though the converter is not necessary to move the car down the road.
Catalytic converters have a demonstrable good. Solar panels have a demonstrable negative. They will never pay for themselves. Power costs will always be higher, no matter how long they are used.
All the regs will do is force people to subsidize an economically non-viable industry. But they will allow Jerry Brown and Mary Nichols to feel pious. And that’s important.
LOL @ur momisugly Pat Frank: “They will never pay for themselves. ”
..
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf
Coeur de Lion:
Looking at the actual paper referenced in the NRL data, they compared a solar installation to a diesel generator. That’s why they had such a short payback.
One of the real problems with rooftop solar is that not every roofline faces east-west. Their mostly random. If your roofline runs north-south, you get practically nothing. Northeast- Southwest, then about 8% efficacy (cosine of 45 times 12%).
@The Lion
Actually… it’s not necessarily easily proven that catalytic converters reduce pollution since they also increase back pressure.
Show the calculation and then maybe I’ll accept that hypothesis. Calculate the engine efficiency with and without the chemical afterburner… show the efficiency with and without the air flow meter in conjunction with the converter… and show the efficiency of the engine if the converter is not tuned properly in the exhaust system.
It is not necessarily true or easy to show that a catalytic converter reduces the overall systemic emissions of running an internal combustion engine vehicle.
unknown502756
“it’s not necessarily easily proven that catalytic converters reduce pollution”
…
Actually one doesn’t need calculations. I suggest you talk to someone that lived in the Los Angeles basin in the 1960/1970’s and have them tell you how bad the air pollution was.
Where your critics are sort of right is that oxygen sensors, and electronically controlled fuel injection and spark management systems required to make catalytic converters work would have reduced pollution a great deal if they were used without a catalytic converter. It is a rather fruitless argument, as the systems were introduced at much the same time, so no real way of sorting out the effects is possible.
@The Lion:
Actually… one does need to do the calculation… smog is a local phenomenon not a global one. Therefore, it’s quite possible that a catalytic converter is simply moving the smog around… displacing it from the tailpipe to the refinery.
So… please have a go… or go away… ’cause you got nothing but hot air.
unknown502756, if you think that catalytic converters do not clean up air pollution from vehicles, I suggest that you take a trip to China, and visit an urban area like Beijing and breath the air in the city. They have lots of 2-stroke scooters and motorcycles that do not have converters.
@The Lion:
Again with the deflection… what? You can’t do the math? You’re not sure where to begin?
You’re arm chairing this discussion… aren’t you? Well… maybe many of us posters here are as well.
But, your claim is still unproven to me by you. Please work on solving the problem at hand before waving your hands in the air about having the solution to the problem.
And… please show your work, neatness counts.
” You can’t do the math? ”
..
One does not need math when the study of history shows that catalytic converters solved a serious air pollution problem, especially in California.
..
The air in LA is cleaner today than it was in the early 1970’s.
..
Not to mention that there are more motor vehicles in LA today than in the 1970’s.
@The Lion:
I tried that excuse with the IRS, surprisingly they didn’t agree.
“One does not need math when the study of history shows that catalytic converters solved a serious air pollution problem, especially in California.”
And forced those of us who DON’T live in Commiefornia to drive less-efficient cars, thereby producing more CO2 and destroying the planet with Climate Change.
I have a database that has been running for close to 20 years. Doesn’t mean the OS wasn’t patched.
“I have a database that has been running for close to 20 years. Doesn’t mean the OS wasn’t patched.”
…
However, the database system would run both with and without the OS patches. It certainly ran before the patches were applied, so the OS patches were not necessary for the running of the DB.
Coeur the DOE propaganda you site is only valid for states that pay top dollar for the electricity that you send back into the grid and do not charge you top dollar for the electricity that you take out. In many states roof top solar panels DO not pay for themselves.
Coeur de Lion
More things than motor vehicles contribute to urban smog. Domestic heating/cooling and power form the largest. Domestic coal burning caused the infamous London pea soupers around the turn of the 19th/20th Century.
Why bring religion into it? It is a totally secular ideology. Nothing to do with religion. Secularist ideologies can be absurd enough without bringing religion into the equation. The next thing people will be saying that Marxism is a religion and that Mark was a religious prophet. And that when he said that religion is the opium of the people he meant that approvingly. And after that we might well have the claim that atheism is a religion.
Pollution was bad.
Cars started using catalytic converts.
Pollution wasn’t as bad.
Ergo catalytic converters caused the improvement.
Do you really believe that you have proven what you wanted to prove?
Lie-on, as always, you focus on what you want to and ignore everything else.
Much, perhaps even most of the pollution in Beijing comes from coal fired cooking stoves.
This is just another way of installing the UN Paris agreement in California by using the sub-national way.
The UN Paris agreement can be accomplished state by state and city by city.
The calculations are way off since it is doubtful the solar panels will be effective for 30 years. My understanding is they degrade over time. Plus, unless one keeps the panels clean they lose efficiency. This is like Obamacare. A regulation that will no live up to the hyped promises. How many of these politicians own stock in the companies set to become rich on this diktat?
Victor D Hanson; (NEW) A Thorough Explanation of California’s Failing Utopian Vision
“Power costs will always be higher, no matter how long they are used.” Quite true. Don’t you wish you had a business model where you have a captive consumer and the less amount of product sold the more you can you can charge. I can see it now, solar panels and installation will become way over priced.
The life cycle of solar panels and neodymium magnets should be taught in schools alongside the carbon cycle and the water cycle.
‘Environmentalists’ would soil themselves if they could be bothered to cheque 😉
There is no “life cycle” for neodymium magnets. It is one of the reasons they call them permanent magnets.
Fascinating. In what ever world you inhabit, there is no abrasion, mechanical or thermal shock. Once a “permanent” magnet is made, it will last forever.
Unfortunately, out here in the world us non-trolls live in, everything wears out.
50 years ago the artwork I brought home from grade school was put on the refrigerator door and held with a magnet. That same magnet today is still stuck on my refrigerator door, but it holds up my grandchildren’s drawings.
…
Tell me MarkW, how long will that permanent magnet last?
Are you truly comparing something in climate-controlled no-load service to something that will endure heating and cooling of the weather daily and be under continuous load it’s entire life?
@The Lion:
Here we are again…
Well… permanent magnets lose their magnetic properties when either heated at a high temperature for a long time or are subjected to sudden and significant shock.
So, are any of those events possible in… say… a massive windmill… Yes! I guess so. Sudden shock and high temperatures can occur in electric motors, wind turbines, and many other applications where permanent magnets are included in the BOM.
So… perhaps let’s do the calculation for enabling active braking systems on an Electric Motor for an EV… does the energy dissipated raise the temperature of the permanent magnet enough to cause a loss in magnetic properties? What is that formula again? Remind me….
And…
What if the mass of the vehicle in question is something on the order of a Semi-Trailer? The energy required to dissipate through the electric motor system in an active braking maneuver for such a large mass may cause the motor to heat rapidly and beyond a temperature for magnetic properties to be sustained…
And then what happens?
Crash! Loss of property and life…
unknown502756
.
1) Most land based “massive wind turbines” do not use permanent magnets. For example, most automotive alternators do not use permanent magnets as their rotors are electromagnets.
..
2) Induction motors in EV’s don’t use permanent magnets: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/30/nikola-teslas-19th-century-induction-motor-ideal-choice-21st-century-electric-car/
Coeur de Lion
Let me get this clear in my head. What you seem to be saying is that ‘permanent’ magnets never degrade or lose their magnetic power. In which case, haven’t we then cracked perpetual motion?
Lie-on, are you really comparing a magnet on a refrigerator in a temperature controlled environment with minimal vibration to magnet in an industrial setting?
Coeur – check it out before cashing any cheques, It is a rare earth product. The extraction of which, in the unregulated countries preferred by storks, is a disgusting, disfiguring, disruptive and dire stain on the planet and those folk who prefer their pollution to be created someplace they can’t see, smell or breathe it.
You are not ‘on a winner’ Coeur.
50 years ago was 25 years before the commercialization of neodymium magnets, so holding up your artwork was old fashioned and probably steel based.
A drive motor for the typical hybrid or typical electric vehicle contains over 1 kilogram of neodymium.
Up to 600 kilograms of permanent magnet per megawatt in all direct-drive wind turbines –
less in gear driven ones granted but still a not insignificant amount when multiplied by n of turbines around the place.
Magnets formed with the industry standard 30% neodymium by weight are extremely prone to corrosion and are brittle, which leads to various failures – spallation, crumbling, etc.
I think the message you are sending is, “Buy old homes and restore. Avoid buying a new home at all costs, so we can have a bunch of unoccupied, new houses on the market that don’t stand a chance in hell of being bought, because they all are sentences in our national message, … monuments to our failed cause based on failed assumptions.”
OR
the simpler message, “We’re too stupid to face reality.”
I read another story a couple of days ago about how the number of people leaving CA is accelerating, and cost of housing is one of the biggest reasons.
Add to this the number of high income earners who will be leaving the state because the rest of us are no longer subsidizing CA’s high taxes to the degree we used to.
The rulers of one party CA won’t be happy until it rivals Chiapas in poverty and wealth inequality, with a few oligarchs atop a heap of Mestizo and Indian peones.
Don’t forget that most of those people leaving California will be bringing with them the same ideas that have destroyed that state, and will use them to destroy whatever state they move to.
You can do the “remodel” in my old California town. Tear down everything except one wall, that way it is a remodel.
But this will increase the sale price of those old homes. Supply and Demand. Once the politicians figure this out a NEW LAW will be written to force all homes to be fitted with solar panels upon sale. The new owners will have to pay. This will cause a over supply of homes as people move out of California. Then who will support the state with the largest percentage of illegal immigrants, the largest percentage of people in poverty, and the largest percentage of welfare recipients in the country?
The only question I have is – what energy saving per month, will this $50 per month cost be offset against?
If it equals $50 – I’d be a bit iffy about it all, if its more than the $50, not problem, but associated with that, would these solar panels last the 30 years that the mortgage does, for them to be paid back over?
The total of $18,000 for the panels – $50 per month X 12months X 30yrs = $18,000……really makes you wonder, if sufficient energy is created over the panels life time.
PS…did I miss something??
You are spot on DBH, although the math used in the article was for the panels to only cost $9,500. If we nearly doubled that cost to the $18k you suggested (which to me sounds like a more accurate figure for a decent size installation based on my admittedly basic research) it would be closer to $100 per month. Most panels have a claimed lifespan of 15-25 years and some die long before that. None of this even begins to cover where these panels are being made, their quality or the pollution generated in their creation.
I have a friend in the bay area with solar panels on his home, they were there when he bought the house and the contract came with the home so he could not get out of it. The rental cost for the panels is basically equal to the cost of electricity that they offset so there is effectively no gain for him. Now that could change if the cost of electricity spikes in CA, which is not at all unlikely.
“and some die long before that”
and all of them will see a gradual drop off in the amount of electricity they produce starting from the first day out of the box.
I would guess that the highest failure rate component would be the inverters.
Depends on what gets dropped onto the panels.
PS: If the seals on the panels fail, the panels themselves will fail in short order.
As an energy analyst in Ca, I’ve been dealing with the CEC for years as they slowly squeeze the consumer. What most people don’t realize is the only reason solar CAN pay off in SOME parts of Ca (not NoCal) is we have a sunny climate, benign weather, and insanely high electricity costs. For those of you in other states, the disclaimer would be ‘don’t try this at home’.
The other part they are looking at is the requirement for a power backup system (Powerwall?)to get ‘credit’ for the solar (another way Musk uses the power of the government to finance his business model). This has happened because back in the Enron days, those electricity price spikes were cause by high cost of electricity during peak use, which was 10am-4pm. When the Utility Commission allowed net metering for solar it seemed like a great idea for the utility companies. Basically they were taking your expensive peak energy in exchange for cheaper energy later. Now, because of all the solar, peak energy use is 4pm-9pm. The utilities are now taking your cheap solar power and paying you back in peak power. The law of unintended consequences always wins.
DBH was using the $9,500 installation cost plus interest. if you think $18k is a closer estimate for installation costs, the total cost would be $26,280 once interest is calculated.
And you can be pretty sure that those mandatory panels will end up being builder grade and not get nearly the longevity or produce the energy that is used in these calculations.
D B H
Just take a look at the UK example. Solar panels were encouraged by subsidising every kW (?) returned to the grid by the panels, guaranteed for 20 years. The market boomed until the price is now 10% of that some 10 years later. The market has entirely collapsed because the cost of installation and maintenance is far more than any return.
When I retire back to Scotland in 5 or 6 years and look for a house, I’ll be targeting those with solar panels installed so I can beat the house price down as I’ll be responsible for removing and disposing of a useless technology which has become a liability.
If Solar was so good, people would be scrambling to buy and install panels. The proof that Solar is worthless is that it takes government power to force people to buy them.
If solar was so good, the electric utility would pay you to put solar panels on your roof!
The laws may have changed, but a few years ago, public utilities began adding a surcharge to the rates paid by solar panel owners, claiming that beneficiaries of net metering didn’t pay enough for grid maintenance.
Pay you? Are you silly? Just change the laws to FORCE people to buy panels. The utilities now get electric, get to regulate this, and get a FREE infrastructure built for them!
And you can be sure that rates given to such people will ALSO be very low, and VERY controlled by the SAME people regulating YOU out of your great kindness to build all that infrastructure that at one time the government and utilities were supposed to build!
Why build all that stuff when you can get the silly consumers to build it for you!!!
Now, you build it, they still take your money!!! – really a dream come true for these folks.
Will the State mandate that you replace your aging panels after about 10years when their efficiency starts cratering?
Panels manufactured today carry a 25 year warranty that insures they provide 90% of rated output during that 25 year span. So, no, you are wrong to say their efficiency craters after 10 years.
That wouldn’t be Solyndra panels, would it de Lion?
Gums asks…
@ur momisugly Coeur de Lion May 9, 2018 at 1:51 pm
Panels manufactured today carry a 25 year warranty that insures they provide 90% of rated output during that 25 year span. So, no, you are wrong to say their efficiency craters after 10 years.
—-
How many of these panels have been around for twenty-five years?
And how many of these companies have been around for twenty-five years without government subsidies?
Those warranties are highly pro-rated, so the company isn’t out much money even if the output craters after 10 years.
Assuming of course that the company that made them is still in business 10 years from now.
Gums, re-read my post, and pay very close attention to the words: “Panels manufactured today.”
MarkW, the output does not “crater” after 10 years.
Forgetting the cost of inverters. While the panels may obtain 90% after 25 years, that’s not equal to the length of the mortgage. And panels have this bad habit of failing and by then where is the panel company? Forget any 25 year warranty. Ain’t gonna happen. And that warranty does not cover the biggest expense – installation costs. More importantly, the inverter costs about the same as the panels, more if micro inverters are used. For a 6KW roof, figure a max output of around 4.5 KW and the cost of a new inverter(s) over $5,000, with inverter lifespans generally around 15 years. Of course, the ones who really suffer are those who don’t have solar roofs and subsidize those that do by paying them for their excess power at retail prices, power that is neither requested nor even usuable, and if used to substitute for reliable power, increases the per unit cost of the reliable power output in an almost linear fashion with respect to capacity. Of course, this also hurts solar roof owners when they require grid power. May as well require those homes to install batteries to help prevent unneeded solar power from being dumped onto the grid. Those batteries will NOT last over 16 years, and by then will have lost probably 25% of their capacity.
1) ” inverter lifespans generally around 15 years” Nope, the only thing that can wear out in an inverter is the cooling fan. They can last 50+ years as long as the fan is turning
..
2) ” For a 6KW roof, figure a max output of around 4.5 KW and the cost of a new inverter(s) over $5,000, ” Nope, just buy 6 of these @ur momisugly $110 each: https://www.amazon.com/iMeshbean-Premium-Inverter-90V-140V-Stackable/dp/B06VV7SRGX/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1525902145&sr=8-7&keywords=Grid+tie+inverter
…
3) Batteries are unnecessary with grid tie inverters.
HAHAHA, 2 1/2 stars on new cheapo chinese inverters, that is funny.
Lie-on, reading comprehension is your friend.
Try reading what I actually wrote this time.
Lie-on really doesn’t know much about the real world. He actually believes that as long as there are no moving parts, something will last forever.
Electronics wear out all the time. The hotter they get, the quicker they break down.
Coeur de Lion wrote:
Don’t think so. Just looked at a bunch of them and their 25 year performance warranty is slightly above 80%.
Couer de Lion… re your comment at 2:46 pm:
You make it sound so simple:
” For a 6KW roof, figure a max output of around 4.5 KW and the cost of a new inverter(s) over $5,000, ” Nope, just buy 6 of these @ur momisugly $110 each:…”
Concerning your point 1: “… the only thing that can wear out in an inverter is the cooling fan. They can last 50+ years as long as the fan is turning.”
Did you happen to read the reviews?… three 1-stars out of five total… here’s how verified purchaser Candace described her experience:
“Quit working after 2 weeks of use. Had smoke coming out of it. Tried to contact company twice about it with no response.”
Your guess is as good as mine with regard to whether the fan was assisting with the smoke-clearing phase of this unit’s life cycle, but I believe that 50 years is being rather optimistic.
Greg F and MarkW: enjoy reading this: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/testing-thirty-year-old-photovoltaic-module
Nick, my 2KW grid tie inverter is 13 years old……and it works fine.
MarkW says: “He actually believes that as long as there are no moving parts, something will last forever.”
…
The AM radio in my 67 Camero still works fine. There are a couple of moving parts in it, and it gets vibrated when I drive the car. How long will this electronic device work?
Nick Werner does not understand the concept of “infant mortality” or “burn in” when it comes to electronics.
MarkW, this thing is about 50 years old and works: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-transistor-radio-portable-Crown-Radio-Japan-1960s-RARE/222969065859?hash=item33e9fdf183:g:ICUAAOSw8S9a780m
..
..
How long will it last?
My radio in my car packed it in after 5 years. Get it your experience doesn’t form the average for a product you need to check the experience of everyone.
Yes LdB, your experience with your radio is abnormal. I’ll bet the battery in that vehicle outlasted the radio, and the power flow through the battery was 100 times as large as what flows through the radio.
Your AM radio doesn’t experience the thermal stress power electronics do. The fact that you think your AM radio is even relevant speaks volumes about your ignorance.
Coeur de Lion doesn’t understand the thermal fatigue or any of the other parameters of power semiconductors that change over time.
Greg F, please explain to me why a complex CPU chip made by Intel, with a 75/100/125 watt power dissipation can run for eight or ten years? That little chip is pretty small and doesn’t seem to degrade over time. We have servers running Linux that sometimes go THREE YEARS without rebooting.
PS Greg F, our network equipment is even more reliable than our servers. Why do the power supplies in that stuff work well for such long periods of time?
“Coeur de Lion May 9, 2018 at 6:49 pm
We have servers running Linux that sometimes go THREE YEARS without rebooting.”
That’s because you are not running Windows. But what has rebooting a Linux server got to do with inverter electronics breaking down over time?
“Coeur de Lion May 9, 2018 at 6:53 pm
PS Greg F, our network equipment is even more reliable than our servers. Why do the power supplies in that stuff work well for such long periods of time?”
Power cycling is the biggest killer of this kind of equipment. It’s usually turned on and left on. Still, does not compare to an inverter.
Coeur de Lion, my liver is older than most of the things you listed, and it still works. As with warrantied solar panels, I’m sure the manufacturer will still be around in another 50 years to make good on any failings that might occur.
Promises are cheap. (Except those that we are also forced to buy from climate modellers.) While I don’t doubt that reliability could be improving, that doesn’t mean that any given manufacturer/installer will actually do so. The economics of the marketplace, even an ‘honest’ open market, can often drive quality down in pursuit of quantity and low prices. Right now, that is where the arrow seems to be pointing, IMO.
If the government of California wants to enforce purchase of solar panels perhaps they should also enforce some genuine standards or guarantee them for the lifetime of the new house? Or maybe try and establish a credible second-hand market. Unfortunately, history suggests these would also end in failure, and right now the private sector is still stuck in ‘Tesla Mode’. That is, the market is not mature enough to be credible, partly because many of the buyers are either technical “enthusiasts” or subsidized, or both. In the UK, previous governments tried to jump-start the solar and wind energy markets, with the idea that the subsidies would help establish an industry that was invested in product development and quality improvements with a long term view. But all that really happened is that many market players simply raked in the short term profits. It’s almost as if they too didn’t believe that there was a significant long term potential that warranted serious investment. They simply took the money and ran, like some of the cowboy installers who were really just a bloke with a ladder.
You are totally missing the point.
Failure rate. A certain percentage will fail. Semiconductor failure rates have a bathtub curb. There will be a higher percentage of failures at the beginning and at wear out (about 100 years). There are still a percentage that will fail over time. If the probability of a CPU failing over a 10 year period is 1 in 1000 and you only have 10 CPU’s it is not likely you will see a failure. Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it never happens.
Well it does. The fact that it still works doesn’t mean nothing has changed. If the changes are large enough you will get a failure.
The CPU doesn’t go through the thermal stress a power semiconductor goes through as the CPU stays in a relatively narrow temperature range. In a power semiconductor the temperature swings are much larger. Since the different materials composing the semiconductor have different values for thermal coefficient of expansion temperature changes create stresses where the different materials bond. This means there is a higher chance of failure from thermal cycling for any semiconductor.
Updates often require reboots. What you are saying is no updates for 3 years. No security holes plugged for 3 years. Who ever made that decision should be looking for a new job.
LMAO @ur momisugly Greg F: ” at wear out (about 100 years)”
..
This means that the CPU chips they made in 1918 are going to start wearing out today?
..
“and you only have 10 CPU’s ”
…
I have well over 4000, and have RETIRED more of them due to obsolescence than from failure.
..
“The CPU doesn’t go through the thermal stress a power semiconductor goes through as the CPU stays in a relatively narrow temperature range.” …….BULL$hit…..the power supply and CPU’s both exhibit very low failure rates.
..
“This means there is a higher chance of failure from thermal cycling for any semiconductor. ” …..which shows everybody here that you have totally missed the point. Most power electronics are not cycled…..they run 24×7.
…
” What you are saying is no updates for 3 years. ”
…
This shows all of us you are computer ignorant. In the world of IT, if something is working, there is no need to “fix” it. Ever hear the saying, “let the sleeping dog lye?”
PS “” What you are saying is no updates for 3 years. ”
…
I don’t know how old you are, but when the Y2K thing happened, there was a serious problem getting COBOL programmers to fix code that was running for 10+ years.
Now your just being a troll.
No you don’t and no you haven’t.
You have short memory. We were talking power inverters. It doesn’t mater if they are running 24/7. What maters is how the temperature changes. The temperature is dependent on the load. With a solar power inverter the semiconductor temperature drops at night as there is no power being generated. The other extreme is around noon when the inverter is running full tilt. That is what thermal cycling is.
Not installing patches is gross negligence. IT is not a world you are even remotely familiar with.
Greg F: “Now your just being a troll. ”
…
1) No, I’m just pointing out your “wear out (about 100 years)” is a baseless assertion.
..
2) Your English sucks….it’s “you’re” not “your”
..
3) “If the changes are large enough you will get a failure. ” Do we have to wait 100 years for this to happen? I don’t think we have 90 year old CPUs to investigate.
..
4) ” No security holes plugged for 3 years” You are defiantly not versed in IT. For example, the computer engine control system in my 2001 Chevy hasn’t had an update since it left the factory. I don’t think it has ANY security holes. Have you updated the software in your car? When was the last time you updated the firmware in the disk drive in your laptop/desktop?
de Lion says: “Nick Werner does not understand the concept of “infant mortality” or “burn in” when it comes to electronics.”
Maybe I don’t or maybe I do. I prefer to let readers reach their own conclusions.
FWIW, I’m an experienced electrical engineer. I may have formed my own opinion of de Lion but don’t see much virtue in sharing it.
I had followed de Lion’s link to a product he introduced with “Nope, just buy 6 of these @ur momisugly $110 each” and I read the information provided there. Thinking that might be the purpose of de Lion supplying a hyperlink.
From the description of the 1000 Watts Grid Tie Inverter: “Normal AC Output Power: 900W”.
Of the five reviews, all from verified purchasers, zero said the product was capable of 900W output. One person got 850W, another ‘70%’ [presumably 700W], a third said “overloads and wattage goes from 750 to 0 then slowly back to 750 watts on 1000 watt solar panels”, and two are getting 0 because the device quit/stopped working.
Readers are at liberty to set their expectations for the ‘1000 Watts Grid Tie Inverter’ on de Lion’s subsequent comment about his experience with the AM radio in his ’67 Camaro. As am I to consider whether one non-moving-yet-still-operational electrical device in somebody’s ’67 Camaro adds any more information about the inverter than the non-moving coil in my ’94 Camry that failed one night while it was parked in my driveway.
@ur momisugly lion
“1) ” inverter lifespans generally around 15 years” Nope, the only thing that can wear out in an inverter is the cooling fan. They can last 50+ years as long as the fan is turning”
Bullshit.
You have really no idea about real world electronic components and how they react under varying high frequency, high loads in varying temperatures.
That your old AM radio still works (low power low stress device) does not say anything about high power electronics.
Please, stop projecting your ideal world onto the real one. It just does not fit.
“Updates often require reboots. What you are saying is no updates for 3 years. No security holes plugged for 3 years. Who ever made that decision should be looking for a new job.”
That rather depends on what/where the servers are being used. If the servers are in a closed & controlled environment (ie not connected to the wider world of the internet) you wouldn’t need to frequently update to plug holes that simply aren’t applicable to what you are doing with the servers (for example, no need to plug remote access vulnerabilities if there is no ability to remotely access the servers in the first place). whereas if they are open to the outside world, then you are quite correct that not updating for 3 years is a seriously major security risk.
Lie-on, is that the extent of your statistical abilities.
One device lasted 30 years, therefore all will last forever.
I see lie-on doesn’t understand the difference between software and hardware.
The fact that a Linux server can go 3 years without re-booting is a testament to how well the OS was written. It says absolutely nothing about how long the CPUs will last.
Couer de Lion:Panels manufactured today carry a 25 year warranty that insures they provide 90% of rated output during that 25 year span.I recently paid for a new roof which was advertised as having a 20 year warranty. Unfortunately, that warranty had small print conditions which said I had to pay for an annual inspection of the roof installation for the insurance to continue. The warranty was not ‘free’ and the 20-year cost of the ‘inspection’ would have paid for a new roof 20 years down the line.
You sound very much like the original mug.
“4) ” No security holes plugged for 3 years” You are defiantly not versed in IT. For example, the computer engine control system in my 2001 Chevy hasn’t had an update since it left the factory. I don’t think it has ANY security holes. Have you updated the software in your car? When was the last time you updated the firmware in the disk drive in your laptop/desktop?”
You said you have Linux servers that have good 3 years with out rebooting which prompted the “No security holes plugged for 3 years?” question. so unless your car is running a Linux server, it’s rather irrelevant to the point.
“As with warrantied solar panels, I’m sure the manufacturer will still be around in another 50 years to make good on any failings that might occur.”
Yeah, why don’t you ask Solyndra about how good their warranties are?
What’s the difference between the Mafia and government? Only one thing, one. 15,000 hours of forced indoctrination to justify the state, paid for by theft. Sally, most humans are too childish to see it for what it is.
Who’s this Sally person that you are talking to?
We have a well known – and pretty effective – charity here in the UK, and perhaps abroad, too, I believe – the ‘Sally Army’.
Founded in 1865.
Salvation Army – https://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/
Might this be the reference?
Possibly?
Auto
Is it the game of Aunt Sally as played by children ?
or maybe refering to Aunt Sally’s Policy Players Dream Book
“My Dear Aunt Sally” is also part of the mnemonic PEMDAS, used to help remember the order of operations in algebraic equations.
PEMDAS = Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally = Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction
Ha! Thanks for that. Keeping me in my toes. This swipe feature blows.
*Sadly
Government of Canada, 2017-07-27
‘Sky Watchers’ Guide: Chapter 3′
Scroll down to: “The Effect of Latitude On The Sun’s Rays”
Re: How much of the sun’s energy an area receives and why.
https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/sky-watchers/publications/guide/chapter-3.html
As long as you feel like you’re making a difference, that’s what matters most.
I always wondered about the Iran deal, why didn’t Obama force even-sunnier Iran to have solar panels instead of enriching uranium to provide cheaper nuclear power for their citizens. They still have the pallets of European cash, don’t they?
I thought the power company had to approve you to hook up to the grid?
About buying old homes. Just pass a bill to require panels when you sell. Heck. Just require all homes to retrofitted with panels.That would really send a message.
What is it with this socialist greenie reflex to dictate to the proles more state driven constrains on ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’? This arbitrary and capricious requirement comes from a regulatory board? And doesn’t need legislative approval? You gotta be kidding me!
Green Police: “Sign ze solar panel papers, Old Man!”
Old Man: “I cannot signs ze papers….”
Green Police: “Why will you not sign ze solar panel papers, foolish Old Man?!!”
Old Man: “Because you have broken both of my hands!”
Loller!
Greens don’t break hands. They hit you with a stick until you either comply, move away, or stop voting for them. 🙂
I call BULLSHIT! on the fuzzy math provided with this article. The same fuzzy math that sold the crap sandwich known as Jerry’s high(sic)-speed, positive-cash-flow train between Fresno and Visalia.
I have heard the average cost of the solar mandate as closer to $30k for the average house size built in CA. BTW … where WERE the most basic details of this mandate in the article? How many kW per sq.ft. of Home is being mandated? What if the solar orientation of your home/site is less than optimal?
I just finished a NEW home in the EBMUD water district, and the required water service “capacity fee” for our home (with mandated fire sprinklers +$ 35k) and (mandated separate landscape water meter +$7.5k) cost my client +$65k. So … before construction even STARTS … it cost my client +$110k Add to that the “Greenpoint Silver Rating” … over and above a recently bolstered Title-24 regulation (minimum building envelope and lighting requirements) +$25k … not to mention the local city “developer fees” +$35k … by the time all the permit fees and “mandates” are paid … my client was $200k poorer. But hey! Only RICH … FILTHY RICH Googleaires can afford a house in CA anyway.
Just tell the clients who move elsewhere and leave their politics back in Commiefornia. Don’t come to FLorida!!! Recommend Texas, heh heh.
They ruined Boulder Colorado, which had been liberal for decades, and a year or two ago even the old, liberal residents up there whined about that.
Gums sends…
TYPOS:
Just tell the clients to move elsewhere and leave their politics back in Commiefornia. Don’t come to Florida!!! Recommend Texas, heh heh.
Gums corrects…
On top of that, US solar panels pushed Trump to add a 30% tariff on panels imported from China — a death knell to a ridiculous idea.
Each additional regulation sounds like a small burden. On the other hand, when you add up the cost of a zillion reasonable sounding regulations …
I like the following idea:
As far as I can tell, it’s through the House and is in the Senate. link
It’s time to severely restrict the ability of bureaucrats to create new regulations on a whim.
Yup. The administrative deep state needs to be reined in.
Administrators’ salaries should be tied to how much they don’t spend, rather than hurrying up to squander whatever is left over at the end of the quarter or year, less their budgets be cut.
“That act would cut back on executive overreach by requiring that any federal regulation imposing $100 million in increased costs on the private sector would have to be approved by Congress before going into effect”
Even if that act becomes law, you’d be amazed at the accounting acrobatics that would ensure that each new regulation would have an estimate of less than $100 million in increased costs.
Your $35k number is closer to what my daughter paid for her solar installation in Wash D.C. Of course she only paid about half that with the federal and district subsidies.
Cool, so the rest of us paid for the other half… With CA mandating it, you may get half covered by the State – but that still means you’re paying for it…:)
Dan, actually the smart ones don’t pay for it because they get on the gravy train. The rest of us who don’t get stuck with much of the bill. Same goes with electric car subsidies. The upper class gets the subsidies and we get the shaft.
I don’t know where you get a $30,000 solar system is now $9500, but I don’t recall seeing this. And if you want all rate levels off your bill instead of just tier 4 power, the cost is $60,000.
Exactly. But HOW MANY panels are being MANDATED? At what kW/sq.ft.?
Even if a panel has a current price of $9,500, when you factor in the effect of supply and demand, plus the natural result of mandating that every home have one, $30,000 sounds like it may be on the low side.
I am surprised that CA does not require a permit to have children, exceptions for undocumented parents of course
Ok – so reading the full article, I was somewhat satisfied that the energy produced would offset the monthly payments – right up until I saw the Sierra Club chiming in and supporting it….at which point my BS detector started causing me grief…..and I’m left questioning the whole idea now.
NB…I have for many years suggested this very thing, that new builds should be made with solar panels – both PV and water – water being the better pay-back in my opinion. But from what I have started to understand, the question of total lifetime cost/savings/benefit, now makes my view now somewhat weaker….darn it all.
Why not let people decide for themselves what they want? Why do you feel the need to force your choices onto others?
MarkW
Plus shedloads.
If it makes sense [note – the subsidy levels will vary in space and time] – then folk will go for heat pumps, solar, wood-burning stoves, mirrors, hydro and even wind or whatever
Let folk decide.
And if your pet boondoggle doesn’t cut the mustard, well, so be it.
Auto
‘Why not let people decide for themselves what they want?’
That’s not the progressive way. See, sometimes people make choices they don’t approve of.
Funny that they always seem to put themselves in position of authority, as opposed to those ruled over.
MarkW
If they can’t mandate something, they tax it. If they can’t tax it, they ban it.
I have a product idea for electric and hybrid vehicles. Picture a line of lens covers for the front and rear turn signal lamps on Prius, Volt, Leaf, etc. vehicles. The only transparent parts on each lens cover are the letters V I R T U E. This would allow the the electric vehicles owners to ‘virtue signal’ at every turn……
You need to distinguish between hybrid and pure-electric vehicles.
Hybrid vehicles have a gasoline engine and a battery which stores energy dissipated by braking, which can be used to drive the wheels when the car is moving slowly, which results in excellent fuel economy. By checking the odometer between fillups, my Prius got over 43 miles per gallon on the last tankful (338 miles on 7.8 gallons). It doesn’t have to be plugged in, so it consumes no additional fossil fuels burned by the electric company.
A pure electric vehicle may not burn any gasoline where it is driven, but recharging the batteries consumes fossil fuels burned by the power company to generate electricity. Depending on the efficiency of the power plant, the electric vehicle may end up burning more fossil fuels per mile driven than a gasoline-powered car.
If someone wants to be really “green” and burn less fossil fuels, a hybrid vehicle reduces total CO2 emissions much more than a plug-in electric vehicle does.
It captures some of the energy lost in braking, not all of it.
The slower the car goes, the less effective regenerative brakes become. There’s also all the conversion losses in the system.
BTW, my Fiat gets over 50mpg.
You are current in your comparison of a “pure” EV vs. a Hybrid. It’s strange and confusing that the term “Plug-in” is also used to refer to Hybrids.
However, your sense of “Green” does not seem to include the emissions from the production of your Prius battery. Your Prius battery is probably equivalent to at least a year or two of gasoline emissions. So, once the battery’s manufacturing “carbon footprint” is taken into account… your “Green” Prius is about the same as any other old car… just quadruple the sticker price.
Of course, a little hyperbole is necessary for the humor bone… but you get the idea – maybe?
My 1980 Honda Civic got well over 40mpg. What’s the big deal? Why the need for all these poisonous, flammable batteries? PS … don’t EVER get in a fender-bender in your Prius … cause your Insurance Co. will JUNK IT … with even minor damage.
Depends where you live.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/
Made me laugh!
This just in (actually, it won’t be in until after this regulation passes) – California’s utilities which are contractually required to provide a guaranteed rate of return are struggling to provide adequate returns in the current environment. A new $50 grid connection fee will be assessed to each month’s utility bill. Additionally new fees will be placed on usage at times of high demand.
Did they “learn” from Germany?I think in Germania its also a must for new buildungs…
It makes less sense in Germany than in California. Germany is at higher latitude (lower sun angle), and has much cloudier weather than California.
Depends on what part of the state you are talking about. Northern CA is not far south of Germany and gets pretty cloudy most of the year.
San Francisco is famous for being cloudy as well.
You are right,but Germany want to be the best green guy in the world…totally stupid!2 years ago there was some weeks nearly no sun and no wind.But the idiots dont realize it.
“a significant increase in the solar market ” < this
Lobbyists for the solar companies have earned their pay this month.
MarkW
Lobbyists = anti democracy. Minority groups foisting regulations over the majority, encouraged by backslapping and bachanders.
This is very much a laughaloud.
Sure, significant. Please gimme my napkin, I’m drooling. Message yes. This is not about money, just a moral message.
The whole environmental/energy mandate agenda in California is being pushed by a few zealots and propagated by Socialist politicians who believe they are supporting the people. Governor Brown is acting like Obama did and the only difference being the Liberals have a lock on state politics and can’t be challenged. Wasn’t always that way but is now and will be into the foreseeable future. California will eventually eat itself.
Now here’s the thing. While this guy tries to scare you and make you think there is a bunch of upfront costs. Get the facts first! Did you know that there are 0-down options and that a large portion of the costs are reduced with the federal tax incentives? Even in states like Washington where the normal cost of energy is low, homeowners are as much as 80% of the total cost of their systems. I encourage you to find out the facts as soon as possible and don’t believe this negative garbage. Going solar is the smartest long-term investment a homeowner can make in my opinion. But don’t take it from me, find out for yourself and get a free proposal from the experts.
This government subsidy stuff is like the government reaching into your left pocket and taking $100 instead of reaching into your right pocket and taking $80…and then telling you that they are saving you money.
My take on government subsidies is that it is like the government reaching into your left pocket and taking $100 then saying “We are going to help you pay for your Home Solar System with this money” and then stuffing $20 in your right pocket.
0 up front options always cost more over the long run since you are financing everything.
As to crowing about federal subsidies, if solar was as good as the trolls claim, it wouldn’t need to be subsidized.
You seem to be happy that you are able to steal enough from your neighbors to cover 80% of the cost of your little toy.
This is the same line every solar salesman tries to pitch.
Of course, there is no choice involved here, is there?
We’ve already been through this charade … in the 1970’s. Many people tried photovoltaic solar … and after about 10 years most decided to disconnect the useless contraptions on their roof. And guess what!? The solar panels of today are made … the. same. exact. way. Using the same chemical reaction to generate electricity, in the same type enclosure. This isn’t “new” technology. The CONSUMER made their decision … solar panels were only for those who cared to signal their “greenness”. The rest of the marketplace couldn’t be bothered.
Then …
PG&E in cooperation with the eco-zealots at the State PUC … jacked-up everyone’s electric rates with their multi-tiered system of GOVERNMENT-sponsored economic punishment (disincentive). THAT is the ONLY WAY to create market demand for solar panels littering everyone’s roof … to CRUSH everyone under unnecessarily HUGE electric rates … to FORCE (the “correct”) behavior. Behold the command-control Deep state Marxist bureaucrats!!!
All of these eco-policies are a CRUSHING regressive TAX on the poor and middle class. The eco-government cabal are NOT your friend.
Kenji demonstrates his ignorance of photovoltaic solar panels. He posts: ” Using the same chemical reaction to generate electricity”
…
They do not use a chemical reaction kenji, please get educated before showing your lack of understanding.
Lie-on complaining about other people’s ignorance. Now that’s funny.
Tell me again how electronics last forever.
Yeah … I guess you’re right … breaking covalent bonds is NOT a chemical reaction. Such bonds have nothing to do with the properties of materials. And Silicon Si is definitely NOT on the periodic table. Sheesh.
https://ocw.tudelft.nl/wp-content/uploads/Solar-Cells-R3-CH3_Solar_cell_materials.pdf
Why is it ALWAYS true … that the man who calls another “ignorant” is often so glaringly ignorant themselves ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_reaction
Kenji, the covalent bonds in the silicon crystal lattice are not “broken” when the PV panel is producing electrical energy.
.
.
https://www.livescience.com/41995-how-do-solar-panels-work.html
Coeur de Lion you really have no idea what you’re talking about. The link you provided doesn’t support your assertion. The covalent bonds are “broken” when a photon raises the energy state of an electron enough to free it.
Actually Greg F, I do know what I am talking about. If the covalent bonds within the crystal silicon were “broken” the crystal would fall apart. That does not happen. There is no “chemical reaction” taking place in a PV panel. If a chemical reaction was taking place, why does the panel continue to work for 10, 15, or 20 years? Why don’t the byproducts of the “chemical reaction” not build up and prevent the continued functioning of the panel. You are dead WRONG to assert that a CHEMICAL reaction is taking place in a PV panel. It is an ELECTRONIC reaction that is taking place, not a chemical one.
…
You really are lost if you think it’s a “chemical ” reaction.
Greg F, when an electrical current flows through a copper wire, there is no “chemical reaction.” The same sort of thing is happening in a silicon crystal when it generates electrical power when photons strike it.
You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. Go back and read the link I posted. It explains how it all works. For the crystal to “fall apart” all the bonds would have to be “broken” which is clearly not what is going on. In fact if you did break all the covalent bonds we would call it melting.
Never said there was a chemical reaction. That is why it is called solid state physics. I expect an apology for your false assertion.
Never said there was a chemical reaction. That is why it is called solid state physics. I expect an apology for your false assertion.
What is happening I already explained. Go back and read the link I provided. It explains how a photon frees an electron from a covalent bond.
“I expect an apology for your false assertion.:
…
That ain’t gonna happen buster.
..
” The covalent bonds are “broken” when a photon raises the energy state of an electron enough to free it.”
…
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
…
The bond is not “broken” when an electron is raised to a higher state.
…
And the movement of “holes” is not the breaking of covalent bonds.
…
Your understanding of chemical bonds and electronic phenomena is confused. The movement of either an electron in a crystal lattice, or the movement of a “hole” in the same lattice is NOT the breaking of a covalent bond. Your chemistry professor should flunk you.
Greg F, I suggest you look at the chemical energy involved in a Si–Si bond, and the amount of energy required to release an electron from a silicon crystal. These two numbers will show you that the photon hitting a PV panel is no where near enough to break a Si-Si bond.
Of course it isn’t. Nor can you quote where I said anything about it being a chemical reaction. So in essence you made a false accusation and are not man enough to admit your mistake. Good to know.
Greg F: posts: “The covalent bonds are “broken” when a photon raises the energy state of an electron enough to free it.”
…
Except that the energy required to raise the electron is less than the energy released when the covalent bond was formed. Therefore the bond was never BROKEN.
..
So your assertion that the chemical bond was broken is false.
….
You posted: “where I said anything about it being a chemical reaction”
…
The breaking of a covalent bond is a chemical reaction. ……
…
So, I ask you to make mind please and get it straight.
Greg F, your problem is that you don’t understand covalent bonds. A covalent bond involves the sharing of PAIRS of electrons between two atoms. Removing ONE of the PAIR to create a semiconductor “hole” does not break the bond.
It’s called solid state physics. The amount of energy required is called the band gap. The amount of energy required is measured in eV (electron volts).
Which is clearly wrong. You just are not a big enough man to admit your mistake.
ROTFLMFAO @ur momisugly Greg F
..
To break the covalent bond, you have to remove BOTH electrons of the pair.
..
Doesn’t happen in a PV panel.
..
Nice try buddy. Solid state physics is not chemistry. If you broke the covalent bonds in the crystal lattice, the crystal would fall apart.
This makes no sense at all. So lets start with what covalent bond is
Do you get that? The electrons are part of the covalent bond. Remove a electron and the covalent bond is broken. Can you follow that? When light of the correct frequency hits one of the electrons it is freed, the covalent bond is broken.
PS: The energy required to “raise the electron” has to be the same as the “energy released when the covalent bond was formed” or you’re violating conservation of energy. Take a damn physics course.
Greg F posts: “A covalent bond consists of two atoms “sharing” a single electron”
..
WRONG
..
WRONG
..
WRONG
..
“A covalent bond, also called a molecular bond, is a chemical bond that involves the sharing of electron pairs between atoms”
…
PAIRS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covalent_bond
…
NOT A “SINGLE” electron a PAIR of them.
…
Which is why removing ONE doesn’t break the bond.
Greg F, from your link: “Therefore, between each atom and its 4 surrounding atoms, 8 electrons are being shared. The structure of a semiconductor is shown in the figure below.”
…
8/4=2
..
2 electrons per bond.
davebrownnetworks
Since excessive subsidies for domestic solar have been reduced in the UK, the solar market has collapsed. There are still subsidies mind you, just not excessive, and they can’t make solar a viable proposition.
Admittedly, solar isn’t ideal at our latitude, but wind should be, being that we’re an island nation perched on the edge of the Gulf Stream. However, onshore turbine planning applications have plummeted as the subsidies have also dried up.
Renewables are a white elephant under any circumstances. Turbines are 14th Century technology for 21st Century problems. Solar only works where the sun shines regularly, and even then for only 12 hours (less) per day. A winter’s day in the UK will see 8 hours of daylight at best, just when we need energy the most.
Surplus energy can’t be stored and if sold back to the grid, without subsidy, can’t produce a return large enough to justify the cost of solar or wind installation because fossil fuel derived energy is still cheap.
To short circuit that, renewables are foisted onto the public, driving up electricity costs to pay for the white elephants and the media is used to trumpet that renewables are now as cheap as fossil.
Utterly dishonest, manipulative, conniving smoke and mirrors.
And the ones who suffer? The poor, who are invariably elderly who have a choice of heating or eating, during miserable UK winter’s, and more are dying every year because of this heartless, socialist drive to combat the myth that human emitted atmospheric CO2 is the cause of climate change.
And whilst the developing world is chopping down valuable forests to provide essential heating and cooking fuel: with 200,000,000 deaths anticipated by 2050 from the smoke inhaled from indoor fires, the West wrings it’s hands over deforestation, hands out toy solar ovens, lights and offers entire villages a single stand pipe for clean water instead of funding viable fossil fuelled power stations.
This is what you people are not only condoning, but promoting with your virtue signalling solar panels for the wealthy West.
I hope your proud of promoting the deaths of 200,000,000 people.
I realized Jerry Brown was something of a space cadet during his first term as Governor. He proved it with his appointment of Adriana Gianturco to Caltrans, the state roads agency, who declined to build roads on the rationale that any reduction in congestion would not be permanent.
The real issue is that the other Democrats in California as trying to make Brown look rational, and that they actually get elected.
Do the regulations require continuing maintenance of said solar panels?
I guess California’s already high home prices were not going up fast enough for Jerry Brown. This will help raise home prices, beyond the reach for many. Women, minorities and gays will be hardest hit, as usual.
Every NEW home (and remodel of more than 50% of existing floor area) HAS TO BE FIRE SPRINKLERED. Nevermind, that this will do NOTHING to curb CA wildfires (when was the last wildfire that started from a house fire … answer ZERO). And the internal fire sprinklers will NOT save your home from the wildfire. So WHY did the State mandate Fire sprinklers for every single Home in CA? Search me … ? I have no clue … except to say that the pipe fitters UNION were strong proponents for the draconian Fire Code change.
California, where they have repealed the law of diminishing returns.
“So WHY did the State mandate Fire sprinklers for every single Home in CA?”
Is it because firefighters will no longer want to enter a house if it has a solar power system that could electrocute them?
you all do realize that most developers will install the cheapest system allowed by the regulation.
what are the specs for the regulation. if there is no wattage per sf
from what i can find the regulation requires 2watt hr per sf of roof so a 30×50 house=~1500sf of roof(basically)…or 3000 watt hr required. so IF i am doing this right.. a 270watt panel would “generate” 270 watt hr per hr… so 3000sf roof/270watts per panel = 12 panels.
developer buys bulk 270watt panels – bulk pallet cost for 6264(plus shipping) -27 panels so each house would take – ABOUT- half a pallet, so 3132 cost for a 3240 watt system (just panels)
fast research says a family of 4 uses ~50kWH per day… a 3240 watt system would provide- about
75% – based on 12hr of sun a day of the power required for said family-based on the system actually GENERATING 3240 watts per hr 12 hr a day.
Recheck your solar insolation….even So. California on gets 6 full sun hours daily on average over the year. You’re off by a factor of 2.
I wonder how much they will be producing up along the north coast where there is fog virtually every morning?
Even in sunny Colorado, 300 days a year, 4.2KW a day is expected from each KW of panels installed.
Depending on how much they increase the insulation requirements in the new standards, that could end up costing even more than the mandate for solar panels.
Given the mild climate for most of the state, more insulation will never pay back the investment. Much like solar panels.
UNLESS ! … PG&E in conjunction with the CAPUC (who is supposed to be protecting the consumer) … continue to JACK UP electric rates. This is the endgame for this mandate … to CRUSH the middle class consumer under usurious electric rates. To DESTROY anyone who dares to operate their “old” “used” home without solar panels. The State is determined to NEVER build another Power Plant in the State of CA … ever … not a single one … while simultaneously flooding the State with illegal aliens.
A State as “technologically advanced” as the State of CA should be providing CHEAP, PLENTIFUL, electricity to every business and consumer via a network of Nuclear Power plants. Sadly … we’d rather force everyone to wear sweaters indoors and give up all their disposable income to a power company that employs more PR shills than actual electricians … generating power for their customers.
If people are stupid enough to live there, they deserve what they get.
In a prior life, I would agree with you.
However, let’s say your entire family lives there… and you have kids… and you would like your kids to see and know their grandparents… now what?
The problem is really that the general public no longer has any power over the government. The Great American Experiment is not over yet, but is very much in danger. And CA residents are one of the most endangered citizens in the USA.
I don’t judge CA citizens… it’s the corrupt government that’s the problem.
I understand your point, however … know when to cut one’s losses.
I abandoned the CA ship 6 years ago. Yes, the government is bad. But the liberal insanity — at least along the coast — is too much.
Yep, and we need to pass a law that prevents them leaving ….. thus exporting their stupidity across the nation.
you guys aren’t getting it. This is rich Californian’s way of keeping “those people” out. AND all the while they get to say it’s just “for the environment.”
Think about it. It’s actually amazing this wasn’t done before. They don’t want to live among the people they import to clean their houses and whatnot. But they can’t keep them out in any legal sense. So, say it’s for “green” energy, your rich friends LOVE YOU and you drive the riff raff to Nevada. Perfect!
Nailed it. Add to that the vicious fight that builders and developers face in each and every upper middle class CA community … from the mean-faced, hysteric, NIMBYS. A Commissioner in a N.CA city where I presented a project actually said that … “the city should consider making the (rather common) ranch home neighborhood into a “historic preservation zone”. Yep. Just to DEFEAT a very reasonable home addition … the sitting Commissioner suggested that the entire neighborhood be “frozen in time” to prevent any changes.
The landed gentry move-in … and the drawbridge goes up.
kenji
Ah! The UK model of planning consent then.
Dilapidated, damp, crumbling, inefficient, Victorian buildings, tediously recycled, at extortionate prices, because there’s a ‘green belt surrounding London and many other cities that can’t be built on for fear of urban sprawl.
A housing shortage because developers must go through years of site research because the greens fear for butterflies, and historians for their precious artefacts.
And yet floods of immigrants are allowed into the country on the premise that no one here will do the mental jobs, perhaps because they were driven to higher education in some obscure subject, and if they dare earn over £21,000 per year, their student loan repayments cripple them, and they can’t pay their mortgage or rent on aforesaid crumbling Victorian pile.
So they remain unemployable and might achieve the state maximum benefit payment of £26,000 per year.
Am I making sense so far.
No, thought not.
This is what’s in store, be warned.