Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Over at the Notrickszone, there’s much buzz over a new paper entitled Molar Mass Version of the Ideal Gas Law Points to a Very Low Climate Sensitivity, by Robert Holmes. The Notrickszone article is headlined with the following quotation from the paper:
“In particular, formula 5 (and 6) as presented here, totally rules out any possibility that a 33°C greenhouse effect of the type proposed by the IPCC in their reports can exist in the real atmosphere.”
– Holmes, 2017
And here’s the abstract:
Abstract: It has always been complicated mathematically, to calculate the average near surface atmospheric temperature on planetary bodies with a thick atmosphere. Usually, the Stefan Boltzmann (S-B) black body law is used to provide the effective temperature, then debate arises about the size or relevance of additional factors, including the ‘greenhouse effect’. Presented here is a simple and reliable method of accurately calculating the average near surface atmospheric temperature on planetary bodies which possess a surface atmospheric pressure of over 10kPa.
This method requires a gas constant and the knowledge of only three gas parameters; the average near-surface atmospheric pressure, the average near surface atmospheric density and the average mean molar mass of the near-surface atmosphere. The formula used is the molar version of the ideal gas law. It is here demonstrated that the information contained in just these three gas parameters alone is an extremely accurate predictor of atmospheric temperatures on planets with atmospheres >10kPa. This indicates that all information on the effective plus the residual near-surface atmospheric temperature on planetary bodies with thick atmospheres, is automatically ‘baked-in’ to the three mentioned gas parameters.
Given this, it is shown that no one gas has an anomalous effect on atmospheric temperatures that is significantly more than any other gas. In short; there can be no 33°C ‘greenhouse effect’ on Earth, or any significant ‘greenhouse effect’ on any other planetary body with an atmosphere of >10kPa.
Instead, it is a postulate of this hypothesis that the residual temperature difference of 33°C between the S-B effective temperature and the measured near-surface temperature is actually caused by adiabatic auto-compression.
Dang … “adiabatic auto-compression” as a permanent energy source. Is it patented yet?
Please forgive my sarcasm, I just get tired of endless claims of endless energy … onwards. Here is a look at the various planetary atmospheres:

And finally, here is his math that leads to his mystery formula. From the paper:
Molar Mass Version of Ideal Gas Law Calculates
Planetary Surface Temperatures
The ideal gas law may be used to more accurately determine surface temperatures of planets with thick atmospheres than the S-B black body law [4], if a density term is added; and if kg/m³ is used for density instead of gms/m³, the volume term V may be dropped. This formula then may be known as the molar mass version of the ideal gas law. The ideal gas law is;
P V = n R T (1)
Convert to molar mass;
P V = m/M R T (2)
Convert to density;
PM / RT = m / V = ρ (3)
Drop the volume, find for density;
ρ = P / (R T / M) (4)
Find for temperature;
T = P / (R ρ/M) (5)
[VARIABLES]
V = volume
m = mass
n = number of moles
T = near-surface atmospheric temperature in Kelvin
P = near-surface atmospheric pressure in kPa
R = gas constant (m³, kPa, kelvin⁻¹, mol⁻¹) = 8.314
ρ = near-surface atmospheric density in kg/m³
M = near-surface atmospheric mean molar mass gm/mol⁻¹
Now, I agree with all of that. Well, other than the strange form of the last equation, Equation 5. I’d simplify it to
T =P M / (ρ R) (5)
But that’s just mathematical nitpicking. The underlying math is correct. That’s not the problem. The problem is where it goes from there. The author makes the following claim:
In short, the hypothesis being put forward here, is that in the case of Earth, solar insolation provides the ‘first’ 255 Kelvin – in accordance with the black body law [11]. Then adiabatic auto-compression provides the ‘other’ 33 Kelvin, to arrive at the known and measured average global temperature of 288 Kelvin. The ‘other’ 33 Kelvin cannot be provided by the greenhouse effect, because if it was, the molar mass version of the ideal gas law could not then work to accurately calculate planetary temperatures, as it clearly does here.
I’m sorry, but the author has not demonstrated what he claims.
All that Robert Holmes has shown is that the atmospheres of various planets obey, to a good approximation, the Ideal Gas Law.
… So what?
I mean that quite seriously. So what? In fact, it would be a huge shock if planetary atmospheres did NOT generally obey the Ideal Gas Law. After all, they’re gases, and it’s not just a good idea. It’s a Law …
But that says exactly NOTHING about the trajectory or the inputs that got those planetary atmospheres to their final condition. Whether the planet is warmed by the sun or by internal radioactivity or whether the warming is increased by GHGs is NOT determinable from the fact that the atmospheres obey the Ideal Gas Law. They will ALWAYS generally obey the Ideal Gas Law, no matter how they are heated.
And more to the point, this does NOT show that greenhouse gases don’t do anything, as he incorrectly claims in the above quote.
Look, we could start up ten million nuclear reactors and vent all their heat to the atmosphere. The planet would assuredly get warmer … but the atmosphere wouldn’t stop obeying the Ideal Gas Law. The variables of density and temperature and mean near-surface atmospheric molar mass would simply readjust to the new reality and the Ideal Gas Law would still be satisfied. You could still use his Equation 5 version of the Ideal Gas Law to calculate the temperature from the other variables, regardless of whether or not the atmosphere is heated by nuclear reactors.
So I’m sorry, but the underlying premise of this paper is wrong. Yes, planetary atmospheres generally obey the Ideal Gas Law, duh, why wouldn’t they … and no, that doesn’t mean that you can diagnose or rule out heating processes simply because the atmosphere obeys the Ideal Gas Law. They will always obey the law regardless of how they are heated, so you can’t rule out anything.
Best of another sunny day to everyone,
w.
MY USUAL POLITE REQUEST: When you comment, please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT so we can all understand what you have an issue with.
Don132 February 15, 2018 at 1:16 am Edit
I GAVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, JUST BELOW THE LINE YOU QUOTED, OF WHY IT WOULD VIOLATE THE SECOND LAW! Instead of haring off on yet another tangent, how about you pay more attention to what you read?
w.
Well, if you have a sphere open to space (instead of a container) plus convective overturning as is unavoidable in a real atmosphere you do get a pressure gradient AND a temperature gradient without violating the second law.
Jim Masterson February 15, 2018 at 10:08 am
>>
Willis Eschenbach
February 14, 2018 at 5:25 pm:
Because it would violate the Second Law.
<<
Jim: "Except that atmospheres, which are usually modeled as “closed systems,” need not obey the second law. The second law only applies to “isolated systems” or systems where isolation can be assumed. The Universe obeys the second law, but the Universe is assumed to be an isolated system."
Thank you, Jim. It might be a good time to sort this out so we have no more disputes over this. Does Willis agree with this? Does anyone else dispute this?
Also, I find it confusing that these threads are all over the place so that it's hard to keep arguments grouped neatly together. I suppose there's no way around that.
Well I found this:
“The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy can never decrease over time for an isolated system, that is, a system in which neither energy nor matter can enter nor leave. The total entropy can remain constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state (equilibrium), or is undergoing a reversible process.”
On that basis a planet is not an isolated system because energy and matter are free to enter and leave.
It also seems that a planetary atmosphere in hydrostatic equilibrium is not a breach of the 2nd law and nor is adiabatic ascent and descent which are fully reversible.
“The total entropy can remain constant in ideal cases…”
Stephen, pay attention to that phrase I clipped here from your clip, ideality is not of this world. There are always losses, always some sort of friction, no real process is reversible where you can just run the film backwards. There are no descending columns in the real world of fluid convection.
And by the way, Willis, since I was able to figure out who wildeco was long ago, and I also noted when “Frolly” stated clearly “aka Holmes,” I suggest you might be the one who needs to pay more attention to what you read.
Well aren’t you the shining star! Should we give you a participation trophy?
Me, I refuse to spend even one instant trying to find out who is hiding behind what new alias. Anonymous people are of no interest to me, I’m only interested in their scientific ideas.
If you wish to spend your time suspecting people and trying to figure out if they are really someone else, that’s your choice, but that doesn’t give you the high moral ground you think … me, I prefer to do science and write it up, and as a result, I don’t spend one second on your kind of detective work. I take people at face value, I assume that they are not scummy sockpuppets … so sue me.
w.
Willis, it’s a simple matter of paying attention to what you read. I don’t spend nearly as much time on this site as you do, I can assure you of that, except for the present instance, and yet I noticed who wildeco and Frolly were. It was obvious: Frolly, for example, signed off as “aka Holmes.” It takes no “suspicion” at all to notice that.
You know what? I don’t give a rat’s arse either way. But if want to accuse me of not paying attention to what I read, as you did, then right back at ya.
Please knock off the attacks on my character or my attention and the gratuitous mockery. I prefer to keep the conversation elevated; what do you prefer?
Don
You are right; the rudest and most obnoxious person here is Willis.
I find it hard to distinguish between him and the climate fanatics I often have to ban from my channel, actually.
By starting another thread, Willis’ comment removes his comment from the previous thread, but it belongs it that thread. This is confusing.
Willis Eschenbach February 14, 2018 at 5:25 pm
Don132 February 14, 2018 at 2:06 pm
Would Willis be so kind as to explain why a pressure gradient in a gas does not imply a temperature gradient?
Willis: “Sure. Because it would violate the Second Law. If it did, all we’d have to do is build tall insulated cylinders filled with air, and run a heat engine off the temperature difference between the top air and the bottom air … which is a perpetual motion machine forbidden by the laws of thermodynamics.”
We could not build a perpetual motion machine because “it is impossible to extract an amount of heat QH from a hot reservoir and use it all to do work W . Some amount of heat QC must be exhausted to a cold reservoir. This precludes a perfect heat engine.” This has nothing to do with the the tall insulated cylinder itself. It appears to me that your statement was a distraction. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html#c3
You may want to defend your position regarding the 2nd law, and that’s OK; I’m patient, too.
In any case, and more importantly, I’ve queried you about your mysterious cylinder again elsewhere: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/02/06/ideal-gases/comment-page-1/#comment-2744961
It’s up to you to explain what you mean regarding expansion, pressure and temperature so we can clear this up. Just as I was willing to concede the Badger argument, I’m willing to concede here as well, if you’re correct.
Don132, I give up. I have explained this over and over. I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
w.
You are evading. I’m not asking you to understand it for me; I’m simply asking you to define your terms clearly and distinctly. Let’s try again: when a parcel of air expands, it cools. By what mechanism is this cooling accomplished? Expansion, great, yes, I get it. Tell me whether or not you believe that expansion means decreasing pressure, and that is the mechanism whereby an expanding parcel of gas cools according to the gas laws. Or if this isn’t it, then define this mechanism of how expansion works to cool a gas, please.
Furthermore, we once again seem to be dancing around the confusion between internal energy and temperature.
Don132 February 15, 2018 at 2:55 pm
Huh? This is all laid out in the ideal gas law. Other things being equal, if V increases, T goes down. I was unaware you were suffering any confusion about this. I can assure you I’m not.
What you don’t seem to get yet is that inside an insulated, sealed cylinder at steady-state, V is not increasing anywhere, nor is P. No expansion, no cooling.
Since I haven’t said one single word about internal energy, not one, I have no clue what you’re dancing around. Again I have to say, QUOTE WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO! This is getting very old, your inane assumption that everyone can understand what you are thinking. We can’t. You have to spell it out.
w.
Simple, simple question Willis: when V increases, WHY does T go down? Please explain. By what mechanism does an increase in V cause a decrease in T?
I know the answer. Do you?
Internal energy, which no, you have not used but perhaps should, is the “isothermal” temperature of those atoms residing in an isothermal gas, which gas will nevertheless not have the same temperature if the pressure decreases. Don’t believe it? Put your hand in the thermosphere.
But please, I beg of you, answer the question of why V causes T to go down, this is far more important than our dispute over an isothermal atmosphere.
You’re absolutely right, Willis, I do have to spell it out, and so do you. That’s my tactic! We need to be crystal clear about what we’re saying or this will all descent into a food-fight.
Don asks: ”when V increases, WHY does T go down?”
Depends on the conditions of the precise thought experiment. Consider a precise gas universe:
PV=nRT=conserved quantity of energy=constant in this universe
You start with the diagram as shown in Fig. 1 of “Refutation of Stable Thermal Equilibrium Lapse Rates” the perfectly insulated column of ideal gas (“adiabatically isolated column of an ideal gas”), a universe to itself, BUT divided into two halves vertically, all the ideal gas on the left side V1. Vacuum on the right side.
Inside this container universe energy is conserved by 1LOT.
Now punch a hole in the partition and allow the gas freely to occupy both chambers for larger gas volume V2. Because the gas is ideal, its temperature does not change when its volume increases (no heating or working has been done on or by the gas, P*V = constant)!
Why? Since P*V = constant to conserve universe energy then so is n*R*T and as n, R are constant so then is T constant. Well, only if you want to buy the IGL and 1LOT. NB: in this process the entropy of this universe does increase.
If you really do this experiment where there is no such thing as ideality, T does change slightly as measured but that is not the subject of top post: Ideal Gases.
Clear? Crystal.
Willis, you are shouting again. It is unbecoming, and rather sad. I think we should just leave you to it, inside your tin sphere. Cheerio, Brett.
Man, if that’s all it takes to rid this thread of folks like yourself, I’LL SHOUT SOME MORE!
w.
Willis, the author is quite right, actually. I did the same analysis of Venus’s dense CO2 atmosphere with identical results, showing that the gas law (I actually used Gay-Lussac’s law) alone would account for the high temperatures at the surface, and it would swamp any possible greenhouse effect from the CO2. Also, I pointed out that the atmosphere was not a closed system, so convection would quickly remove heated gas from the surface, greatly lowering the temperature that one would find if the atmosphere were confined.
davidbennettlaing February 15, 2018 at 11:46 am
There are dozens of authors quoted in this thread. Even if I knew which author, what are you claiming that they are right about? Holmes makes 2 claims. One is that the Ideal Gas Law works. Duh.
The other is that the Ideal Gas Law “totally rules out any possibility that a 33°C greenhouse effect of the type proposed by the IPCC in their reports can exist in the real atmosphere.” Wrong.
In short, what I am saying is GET UP OFF OF YOUR DEAD OKOLE AND QUOTE WHATEVER IT IS YOU ARE BABBLING ABOUT! What is it about following a simple polite instruction that you can’t seem to grasp?
w.
This is in reply to Willis 2/15/18. I don’t know why Don 132 came up.
Willis, why must you be so uncivil? I meant Robert Holmes.
davidbennettlaing February 15, 2018 at 6:15 pm Edit
Don132 came up because you uncapped your electronic pen WITHOUT telling us what you were talking about.
Are you really this dense? I asked you to QUOTE what you were referring to, to spell out whatever it is that you blithely claim is “quite right, actually”. But nooo … you’d rather whine about my tone than quote whatever it is that you think is “quite right”. That might be interesting. This is just complaining.
As to why I get uncivil, I am faced with a constant parade of people like you, charming folk who are either unwilling or unable to comply with my polite request to QUOTE WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE REFERRING TO!!!
Since you insist on not following a polite request, why on earth would you think you are entitled to whine that someone treats you less than politely?
w.
Willis, a proper response to davidbennettlaing might have been:
“Sorry, I do’t know which author you mean. Please quote exactly what you’re referring to– this is my standard request to avoid misunderstandings.
Can you please describe your work with Venus more? How exactly does it refute what you claim it does?”
I point this out because it seems you’ve been getting a bit rude lately. And yes, I can quote it. So can others.
Willis
“The other is that the Ideal Gas Law “totally rules out any possibility that a 33°C greenhouse effect of the type proposed by the IPCC in their reports can exist in the real atmosphere.” Wrong.”
.
Willis, you appear to be in total ignorance about my paper. Except of course for this one cherry-picked sentence which you must have read and then copied it here out of context – and without all the backing arguments. On top of that you have, and continue to repeatedly misquote what I actually said, even in the one sentence you do cite. I did NOT say that the “IGL totally rules out…” etc. In fact I did not even use the IGL in any of my calculations, only a derivative of it.
Are you sure you are an open-minded skeptic, who regards the IPCC’s reports as exaggerated?
Don had asked:
I said it would violate the Second Law if it automatically implied a temperature gradient.
Jim responded to my answer above by saying
Jim Masterson February 15, 2018 at 10:08 am
Thanks, Jim. I illustrated my claim by saying, in the rest of my sentence which for some reason you didn’t quote:
If you have a problem with that example, let me know.
Now, can an open planetary system have a decrease of temperature with height in the atmosphere? Sure … unless there are no GHGs in the atmosphere as in my proof. In that case, the atmosphere becomes isothermal.
However, the question was whether a pressure gradient automatically and always implies a temperature gradient as was claimed, and the answer is no, it doesn’t. To verify that, I showed it doesn’t work in a closed system. You can indeed have different parcels with different pressures at the same temperature, the temperature is not implicit in the pressure.
w.
“If you have a problem with that example, let me know.”
The problem is these devices have been constructed so are in compliance with 2LOT. Don and Willis should be interested to know that heat engines run off the temperature difference between the top air and the bottom air are not perpetual motion machines forbidden by the laws of thermodynamics since they have been routinely constructed and shown to work. In addition to atm. air, they can also be constructed in the ocean & the process is called Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC).
Also the ideal tall air cylinders are now proven to become non-isothermal at thermodynamic equilibrium, Maxwell’s lower entropy isothermal thesis has been improved in modern times.
Trick February 15, 2018 at 2:24 pm
Say what? Point us to the tall sealed insulated cylinders of air where the heat difference bottom to top is driven by gravity alone, which is what these folks claimed and which is what we are discussing. I say they don’t exist.
Yes, you can exploit existing temperature differences using a heat engine, whether in the air or in the ocean. What you can’t do is drive the temperature differences by gravity in a sealed insulated container as folks are claiming
w.
”If it did, all we’d have to do is build tall insulated cylinders filled with air, and run a heat engine off the temperature difference between the top air and the bottom air … which is a perpetual motion machine forbidden by the laws of thermodynamics.”
is what we are discussing.
”I say they don’t exist.”
Right, “they” are only theoretical. You add “driven by gravity alone”. I am not sure what you mean by doing so.
The thought experiment in “Refutation of Stable Thermal Equilibrium Lapse Rates” is a heat engine driven by gravity alone. The heat engine will cease at thermodynamic equilibrium with a certain T(z). It doesn’t exist as no real column is adiabatic (“adiabatically isolated column of an ideal gas”) – every real column is diabatic.
”What you can’t do is drive the temperature differences by gravity in a sealed insulated container as folks are claiming.”
What you can show theoretically is to drive a temperature difference T(z) in a gravity field in a perfectly sealed, perfectly insulated container as the modern theory has proven at thermodynamic equilibrium i.e. maximum entropy (ref. Bohren 1998 Chapter 4.4).
>>
Thanks, Jim. I illustrated my claim by saying, in the rest of my sentence which for some reason you didn’t quote:
If it did, all we’d have to do is build tall insulated cylinders filled with air, and run a heat engine off the temperature difference between the top air and the bottom air … which is a perpetual motion machine forbidden by the laws of thermodynamics.
If you have a problem with that example, let me know.
<<
If you want to argue thermodynamics, Willis, I’m game.
The Kelvin-Plank statement (of the second law): It is impossible to construct a device that will operate in a cycle and produce no effect other than the raising of a weight and the exchange of heat with a single reservoir.
The Clausius statement: It is impossible to construct a device that operates in a cycle and produces no effect other than the transfer of heat from a colder body to a hotter body.
Those two statements are equivalent, actually. And there is this:
A perpetual motion machine of the first kind would create work from nothing or create mass-energy, thus violating the first law. A perpetual motion machine of the second kind would violate the second law, and a perpetual motion machine of the third kind would have no friction and thus run indefinitely but would produce no work.
Now the thermodynamic definition of heat: the form of energy that is transferred across the boundary of a system at a given temperature to another system (or the surroundings) at a lower temperature by virtue of the temperature difference between the two systems.
I looked those up in my thermodynamics text, just to be sure.
Your statement:
doesn’t really match the actual definition.
So why would your tall cylinder violate the second law? Of course, you’d have pump a fluid between the two sections of the cylinder–against gravity. Now that may cut into the efficiency of your heat engine. You do know that thunderstorms routinely utilize that temperature difference and create an incredible amount of work from it? Do thunderstorms violate the second law?
The second law is also defined as ΔS ≥ 0 for an isolated system. Your cylinder doesn’t define a system, boundaries, heat and work flows, nothing. It’s hard to say if your example violates anything, let alone the second law.
Jim
Jim 4:23pm: “the form of energy that is transferred across the boundary of a system at a given temperature to another system (or the surroundings) at a lower temperature by virtue of the temperature difference between the two systems.”
And the discrete physical form of energy transferred is the KE of the two systems constituent particles (atoms, molecules) where heat is only a measure of that transferred energy. Most modern thermo. texts will have a sentence that heat does not exist within any system, object, body. You should check closely for that line in your text.
>>
Most modern thermo. texts will have a sentence that heat does not exist within any system, object, body. You should check closely for that line in your text.
<<
Thank-you Trick, and I’m aware of that. I already informed Don of that earlier here: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/02/06/ideal-gases/#comment-2744117.
Jim
Yes Jim, and your comment was very helpful, thank you. I was paying attention, and I’m now researching that in more detail.
“So a bucket of very hot water contains no heat.”
Fine modern science Jim. Too many forks in these comment threads to follow or follow-up.
Just like a very cold bucket of water contains no cold.