Full disclosure: I own an electric car, and I think they are useful for city transportation. However, having owned one for a decade, I can say that it hasn’t been practical or cost-effective. John Hardy believes they are the future, I’ll let you, the reader, decide. – Anthony Watts
The demise of the Western auto industry: Part 1 – the basics
By John Hardy
Preamble
In the West, almost all climate change activists consider Electric Vehicles (EVs) important because they are believed to emit less CO2 per mile. In contrast, many (but not all) climate sceptics consider them a waste of space because they regard them as a solution to a non-problem: they believe that all that EVs are good for is virtue signalling.
Actually, and quite regardless of “the environment”, EVs are poised to inflict the mother of all disruptions on the automotive industry. This can’t be explained (or dismissed) in a soundbite, so this is the first of three posts setting out why this might be so. This first post is mostly background. The second addresses the problem for the established automakers. The third addresses some misapprehensions about EVs.
The LA times reported in 2009 that the outgoing CEO of GM said that the biggest mistake he made was to kill the electric EV1 and throw away the technology lead that GM had acquired[1] , [2]. It isn’t just GM. The turgid response of all the big Western automakers leaves them at risk of being overtaken by agile Eastern competitors in the same way that the Swiss (mechanical) watch industry was overtaken in the 1980s by agile Eastern competitors making cheap accurate quartz watches[3]
What is so great about electric motors?
The internal combustion engine (ICE) is a complex beast which needs lots of air, lots of cooling and which generates large volumes of smelly exhaust. It has a high parts count, is a high maintenance device, and is plagued by noise and vibration. Worst of all it has an absurdly narrow torque band and won’t run at all below (typically) 500 r.p.m. or so. A lot of the complexity and expense in a modern ICE car is focused on minimizing these deficiencies.
By contrast, an electric motor is a model of flexibility and simplicity. Figure 1 shows the floor pan of the Tesla Model S.
The entire drive train consists of two metal cans, sandwiching a fixed-ratio final drive. The motor revs to about 15,000 r.pm. It produces good torque at zero r.p.m. and (in some models) peaks at over 400HP. No clutch, torque converter or variable-ratio gearbox is needed. The motor is an ordinary AC induction motor. It has no brushes and (apart from the bearings) one moving part. It contains no rare earth magnets. The inverter is solid state. No exhaust system, turbocharger, oil pump, coil, distributer, intake air filter, complex vibration damping or heat shields; no pistons, valves, pushrods, camshafts, lifters, catalytic converters……….
The end result is smooth, seamless but ruthless acceleration and whisper-quiet cruising. Some models have a smaller drive train between the front wheels. The two together can accelerate a 4,000lb car at around 1G from standstill to 60 m.p.h. in under 3 seconds.
There is more. The inverter can adjust the motor torque in milliseconds so traction control is far more accurate than for a piston engine. (Elon Musk once Tweeted “Tesla dual motor cars are also all-wheel drive. Main goal of dual motor was actually insane traction on snow. Insane speed was a side effect” [4] ).
The motor can also act as a brake, which recovers energy (much of the energy used to climb a hill is put back into the battery rolling down the other side). The same characteristic makes it possible to drive on just one pedal; press to go, release to stop. It also saves on brake wear (one example was an electric taxi that did over 100,000 miles on the original brake pads).
Why now?
Electric drive dominated the early years of the automobile, and the electric motor has never ceased to be vastly better than a piston engine for driving a vehicle. There were however two big snags and one lesser one with electric drive. All three have been solved in recent years.
The first problem was energy storage. Piston engines may be inefficient, but motor fuel packs a huge amount of energy into a small volume. Once a distribution infrastructure is in place, the fuel is easily and quickly replenished which allowed essentially unconstrained travel. By contrast the lead acid batteries that dominated electric traction until recently were totally outclassed on both counts; too little energy and too much time to replenish.
Enter the lithium ion battery. Compared with lead-acid, this stores maybe three times the energy per unit of weight or volume (some a bit more, some a bit less). It has a far longer life than a lead-acid battery, is tolerant of partial charging, has no significant memory effect problems and (critically) can be charged very fast. 20 minutes for 80% charge is easily achievable with little effect on cycle life using modern batteries if you can suck power out of the wall fast enough [5]
The second big change has been the development of power electronics. Until the 1970s, electric motors were hard to control [6]. At worst they were either on or off. At best, control was lethargic. That all changed with so-called Vector Control. Inside a modern motor controller (sometimes called an “inverter” if the motor is AC) there are a number of huge transistors, capable of switching hundreds of amps. With cunning and some capacitors these can produce virtually infinitely variable output. A modern EV can be inched along at a creeping pace with far more precision than an ICE car equipped with a clutch, and with less effort: no clutch slipping needed.
The third, lesser, but still important change has been the growing capability of digital processors to do complex calculations in real time. Until quite recently, electric motoring has depended upon series (brushed) direct current (DC) motors. These work well at low speeds but they tend to run out of torque at high r.p.m. and are more difficult to cool. The advent of modern microprocessors has made it possible to synthesise three phase alternating current (AC) at the necessary power levels from a battery. This in turn allows the use of simple induction motors – no brushes to wear out and better cooling. An induction motor is essentially a hunk of iron on a stick inside a tube containing some electrical windings. Machines don’t come much simpler. [Some manufacturers prefer permanent magnet motors. They are smaller and lighter yet, but rely on rare earth magnets which creates supply issues. These motors can also terminate themselves in a sudden melt-down if they get too hot. I am not a fan.]
What remains to be done?
Several things need to happen before EVs become acceptable as a complete replacement for piston engine cars: broadly price, range and fast-charge
Firstly price. This is partly an issue of scale. If you make a million of the same model car, cost per car is a lot less than if you make 10,000. The financial services company UBS recently tore down and analysed a Chevy Bolt. Their conclusion? “total cost of consumer ownership can reach parity with combustion engines from 2018” [7]
Secondly range and thirdly fast charge. The average private car in the UK does about 21 miles a day. In the US, it is about 30. Most people do most of their driving either commuting or local driving. The problem is the half-dozen trips a year to visit granny or go on holiday. There is also a small percentage of users who do a high daily mileage as part of their work.
My personal opinion is that a 300 mile range should work fine for almost everyone, so long as fast charge to 80% capacity takes no more than about 20 minutes. This is just based on the idea that I wouldn’t want to drive more than 300 miles without a coffee and a potty stop.
Tesla’s high-end cars are well past 300 mile range. Even the (relatively) humble Renault Zoe which initially had a 130 mile range has (or soon will have) a 250 mile range option. Fast charge has some distance to go yet in practice, but there is no intrinsic problem in reaching a 20 minute charge.
Price, range and fast charge. EVs are a “whole system” problem that goes far beyond just making a better box for the punter to sit in.
Conclusion
This has been a quick run-through of the theory of EVs. If you are not convinced, go and drive one. Trickle along at three miles an hour listening to the birds sing then floor it. By the time you reach 30 you will be convinced.
Part 2 of this series looks at the problems this creates for the established Western automakers, and part 3 considers common misconceptions which lead some people to conclude that EVs will not be viable in the near future.
References
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F#Response_from_General_Motors
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_crisis
[4] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/560900676453433344
[5] Tests run by the author using a 3C charge rate and lithium iron phosphate cells showed a rate of capacity loss only slightly steeper than similar cells at a 0.5C charge rate [1C is a charge rate numerically equal to the Amp-hr capacity of the battery e.g. 40 Amps for a 40 Amp-hr battery]. A 3C is nominally a full charge in 20 minutes (1/3rd of an hour)
[6] http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1325757
[7] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/19/electric-vehicles-cost-conventional-cars-2018/
The two big flaws with the OPs argument are: the battery problems have NOT been solved, and while the US national average daily drive may only be 30 miles, there are enough times in the life of a vehicle that much longer ranges are required. Hybrids can potentially address these issues, however they also give up one of the EVs big advantages: simplicity.
All sophistry! Marketing claims, dodgy numbers and nonsense.
e.g.:
A) The ex CEO of GM referenced is Rick Wagoner who left GM after decades of bad decisions and almost a decade of bad decisions as CEO.
Included in the original article is:
Note the company image reference, not EV sales, profitability or credibility.
B)
The basics of consumer vehicles are extremely similar. Internal combustion machines have three major components that are different from electric vehicles; engine, transmission and differential.
Four wheel drive IC vehicles include a transfer case.
All four components have survived decades of research and improvements. All four major IC components demonstrate excellent reliability and dependability.
Otherwise, both vehicle platforms are nearly identical. Only where a twenty year old internal combustion vehicle is easily operated at minimal maintenance expenses, EV’s have battery life cycle problems. EV electric motors fail to demonstrate long term reliability when the car stops running due to battery health.
John Hardy makes much of noise, vibration and exhaust.
• a) EV’s are responsible for large amounts of exhaust. Apparently, out of sight is out of mind.
• a) Noise and vibration are easily minimized by padding. High end EV cars are heavily padded. Low end EV’s may have near silent engines, but their road noises and vibrations are substantial.
Then why aren’t Electric Vehicles winning races? Car racing is a major sport!
Originally all vehicles participated in car races; but the onlly serious contenders were steam and internal combustion engines. When the Stanley brother dropped out of racing, steam powered engines also dropped out of serious car sales market.
For decades, car manufacturers have used car races and racing as their innovation test bed. Improvements proven on racetracks end up in the cars sold to people.
If EV’s are so dang excellent, prove it in the racing field. Including the Daytona 500 or Europe’s Grand Prix.
This was a lead into a number of dodgy claims.
N.B. John’s references appear to describe 1950s internal combustion cars while ascribing nirvana abilities to EV batteries, engines and power systems.
e.g.:
Most modern IC automobiles are purchased with automatic transmissions. No clutch is in an auto transmission drive train. Yes, people can special order cars with clutches. Except for driving through endless traffic jams, I greatly prefer a car with standard trans and clutch.
Note also, the brief mention of “huge transistors”. Huge transistors on circuit boards where every component should be counted towards the vehicle’s component count.
When a transistor fails, replacing said transistor could be relatively cheap. Only that isn’t how manufactures work. At a minimum, a failed transistor, connection, condenser, chip, semiconductor, diode, potentiometer, capacitor, etc.; means replacing the entire circuit board at minimum.
None of this complexity is mentioned, instead all complexity focus is assigned to the internal combustion engine.
And:
Note how that phrase is slipped in. Yet, none o fthe complex energy cycle is actually addressed.
Starting with that phrase, there is no such animal as a three phase AC battery. Nor is there a single phase (American household current), battery.
Some major generating facility, somewhere, generates electricity. Nuclear, coal, LPG and Hydro electric facilities directly produce high quality extremely consistent single and three phase AC current that is easily flows to households via transmission lines.
Households needing three phase AC power must have an electrician wire the house for the power, have an inspector approve the wiring, then have the electric company run a 3phase line to the house. Not a cheap decision.
Renewables require a different infrastructure for collecting the electrical power and often converting DC current to AC current for supplying the local grid.
Battery chargers use inverters to convert line electricity to direct current for charging the battery.
Electric motors using three phase AC power require an on board inverter to convert the DC battery power to 3phase AC.
Each inverter cycle uses a substantial portion of the energy being converted.
Then there is this hogwash:
1) There is not any “official” method for collecting vehicle mileage in America.
meaning all numbers are somebody’s estimate.
2) The agency in America for official vehicle mileage reports is the Federal Department of Transportation
Inferring from estimates:
in 2015, light vehicles traveled an estimated 5,929,807,000,000 miles.
Where many usage estimates go wrong is taking the total registered vehicles, which does not include farm and other off road vehicles,. That estimate is 256,000,000 vehicles.
There is a major hitch. America only has 218,000,000 licensed drivers.
VMT, “Vehicle Miles Traveled” calculates into 74.52 miles dividing estimated miles by licensed drivers.
N.B. This assume the miles are from 365 days per year.
Using 5 days per week, i.e. 260 days per year leaves a total of 104.6 miles per day per driver.
Of course there are other issues. This ignores the big trips and weekend drives. Rest assured the total each car is driven is well above the specious 30 miles per day claimed by John hardy.
Keep in mind that many households have drivers who rarely drive; leaving the active drivers producing all of the mileage.
Average VMT means while there are drivers who really do drive only 30 or so miles a day. It also means a substantial portion of the drivers, drive far more than 100 miles per day.
Well, Theo, I take it you do not buy into the utopian electric car future.
In any case, it took me a long read to figure that out. Where is the 2,000 word limit?
Comparing Europe and Britain and Singapore and some other places that some folks here do is not a good thing to do when dealing with we Yanks. And the majority of folks that commute do not drive 20 or 30 miles to work or to a grocery.
If I could buy my groceries across the street, take a train to visit my Mom 100 miles away with only a backpack, walk to work or use a tram , then I might consider living within 100 yards of 300 hundred other people and not having a garden.
But that is not the U.S.A. It’s one of the reasons many folks came to the U.S. and are still literally “dying” to get here. The “welfare bonanza” nothwithstanding.
The biggie for the EV is how do you get mega amps for all the chargers?
I cannot fathom the 2 inch diameter cables running up and down the street to the parking lots under the 100 foot tall apartment building to charge all those batteries. ‘course, all those volts and amps will come from “renewable” sources produced with no use of fossil fuels at any step of the way, including delivery of all the materials to the distribution sites. BEAM ME UP!
Gums sends…
Missed the first sentence?
“Where is the 2,000 word limit?”
Dunno what you’re on about.
I’ve purposely lived six blocks from one place I worked. The closest thing to nearby groceries was a pizza parlor one block away; they made truly excellent pizza and strombolis, only. Sadly, they were fire bombed in SE Pennsylvania’s Mafia Pizza wars.
I’ve never lived in an apartment complex/condo unit away from gardens. And I’ve kept a garden even with only a six foot wide section of yard with sun exposure.
My Father did the same, until he signed into an elder care complex. While there he rallied the elderly to force the complex to provide garden plots for residents to keep.
All too many people assume some person’s miles driven to work is only applicable to drivers.
While there are electric trains and commuter vehicles, the vast majority of vehicles, even in Europe, Britain, Singapore are fossil fueled vehicles.
A utopian electric vehicle dream is pure fantasy at this point.
When fuels cells made decent advances twenty years ago, I thought for a very brief time there was a possibility. Only the advances did not reduce carrying a tank of hydrogen fuel much below massive explosion risk.
Until electric vehicles can easily be provided substantial daily sources of energy for all driving needs, my opinion is electric vehicles will primarily remain fantasy.
Lithium batteries sure haven’t lasted ten years of recharges on any computer I’ve ever owned.
Compare :
Burn fossil fuels/make engine turn/make wheels turn.
To:
Burn fossil fuels/make steam/make generator turn from steam/transmit high-voltage electricity (lose power over distance)/convert to lower voltage at distribution center/ transmit short distance/convert to 120v AC/convert to low voltage DC/charge batteries (lose voltage over time)/discharge batteries into electric motor/make motor turn/make wheels turn.
Yet, the latter is STILL more efficient on a well-to-wheel basis than the former.
Never!
Utter BS
A Leaf goes 100 miles on less energy than is in a gallon of gas. How many gas cars go over 100 miles on a gallon again?
Claimed efficiency is approximately 104 mpg.
If a leaf could travel 104 miles without needing recharging; which it can not.
Not a bad efficiency claim for an eggshell with bad crash performances, that benefits from massive Federal subsidies for purchase.
Utilizable room/comfort inside the vehicle is nil.
Battery life? Unknown.
Why are not efficiency losses during charging included in the energy rating? False claims with cherry picked portions of the car’s requirements.
Why not just use a low power motorcycle or scooter? Easier parking and maintenance with no charging requirements.
The 2017 Leaf has a stated range of 107 miles and many people report getting farther. Utilizable room is far from “nil” and the Leaf is far from the only car that didn’t score well on the small front overlap test because it was designed before that was introduced. Battery life is known to be a crap shoot, but at least Nissan is good for the replacement and has even been known to give heavy discounts to out-of-warranty replacements. The EPA MPGe rating does include an estimate of system losses.
“Yet, the latter is STILL more efficient on a well-to-wheel basis than the former.”
For now, maybe. But the forthcoming Mazda diesel/gasoline engine and the GM/Bill Gates linear piston engine will improve ICE efficiency by 1/3 and thereby (I assume) trump EVs.
Both are too late to the party. They’re refining buggy technology at a time when people are moving to horseless carriages.
From Consumer Reports:
Perhaps driving strictly downhill, 104 miles is possible.
Before weather and temperatures are factored into use and before heating/cooling/radio and other electrical uses are factored.
N.B. Several “road tests” described driving a Nissan Leaf efficiently requires speeds that present the Leaf as a traffic obstacle or borderline traffic obstacle.
CR Crash/rollover summary:
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Nissan Leaf introduced in 2011 and redesigned in 2013:
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Visiting the IIHS web site one finds Leaf crash results back to 2011 and small overlap test results back to 2013. All those intervening years without Nissan addressing driver and passenger vulnerability.
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Nissan Leaf crash results:
“Battery life is known to be a crap shoot”!? Well, you’ve been ignoring experts too; e.g. Retired Kit P’s excellent summation.
“even been known to give heavy discounts to out-of-warranty replacements”: That is a major warning sign. Nissan isn’t in the business to “give” heavy discounts. Making that claim especially specious.
EPA has not been trustworthy; especially regarding things eco-loons love.
I specifically said “2017 Leaf”, which is ONLY available with a 30kWh battery, not 24kWh like earlier models were. As such, the expected range of the 30kWh pack is 107 miles. Again, the Leaf was hardly the only vehicle with poor scores on the small overlap, though addressing it would have been welcomed. Still, people continued to overlook that and buy the Leaf and I would expect that the 2018s will score better. Of course, all of this really ignores the fact that in many ways, the Leaf is sort of the worst case scenario of mainstream EVs. Newer options have better batteries, better safety scores, and more range for a price that is less than what the Leaf launched with and the industry continues to improve.
Actually it isn’t flEtser, no matter how much you may wish otherwise.
Thankfully, I don’t have to wish. Most EVs can go 15-20 miles just on the energy used to refine the gallon of gasoline, then more than 100 more on the energy of the gasoline itself.
That is the 2017 Nissan leaf referenced.
The multiple years was in response to your specious claim that the “Leaf” was designed before the tests.
The Leaf was redesigned in 2013; where they overlooked crash results in the redesign.
Multiple sources list the 2017 Nissan Leaf with 24kWH batteries. If you are referencing a larger battery, suddenly, then you should have specified the upgrade from the beginning.
Every one of your claims has been falsified. 100+ miles in laboratory tests fail to achieve anywhere near that amount in the real world. Hills, A/C, heat, hot weather, cold weather, etc. all shrink the vehicle’s maximum range.
Vehicle range that is at it’s maximum on that vehicle’s first day in usage and declines every use afterwards.
When people refuse evidence and continue to make the same bizarre claims; either they are religious advocates or they’re involved in the business. Paid shills are rather common nowadays.
Of course, simply deluded remains a possibility.
fIEtser, then you spout off again with more fantasy:
“Newer options have better batteries,
better safety scores, and
more range for a price that is less than what the Leaf launched with and the industry continues to improve.”
Those crash test results are the latest until 2018 are released.
Nissan Leaf for 2018 is scheduled to have a 75kWH battery. No mention was made of a body redesign for better safety in crash results.
Tripling the size of a battery greatly increases battery weight while reducing vehicle efficiency, handling and likely safety.
“Better batteries” is fantasy. A fantasy claimed by enviro-loons for several decades.
Then you state this little claim:
“the Leaf is sort of the worst case scenario of mainstream EVs.”
Imagine that?
One shouldn’t forget that EV marketing claims explicitly overlook the total cost of charging EV batteries; especially energy loss converting A/C line voltage to DC battery charge. That total power required to charge a battery should be used for determining the energy “efficiency” of a vehicle.
The BATTERY was redesigned for 2013 and a couple of options were tweaked, but the Leaf received no real redesign until the recently-announced 2018 model. I didn’t reference battery size because the 2017 only had one option (at least in the US market): the 30kWh. Any source listing the 2017 Leaf as having a 24kWh battery is wrong because Nissan removed that option and made the 30kWh standard across the entire line for 2017. As such saying “2017 Leaf” implicitly means the 30kWh version.
Furthermore, the 107 miles of range quote is based on the EPA test cycle which generally tends to be way more realistic than others. (For example, the NEDC test from Europe lists the 2017 Leaf as having something like 180 miles of range.) Just like with the MPG rating that gas-powered cars get where some people get better mileage than is listed and some people don’t, some people also exceed the stated range and some don’t. MPG ratings also vary based on terrain and weather conditions, so it’s really rather unrealistic to expect that EVs will always get their stated range when no other car does.
Finally, my the Leaf is far from the only EV available on the market today. Again, newer options, aka not just the Leaf, are available that DO exceed it in every category listed. If you want to ignore that fact, that’s your problem. But that doesn’t make it less true.
More claims and specious excuses; including conflating statements.
I provided links and references.
You, fEItser have only provided wild claims.
Consumer Reported and “Road and Track” reference a 2013 “redesign”.
Your hand waving regarding a “battery redesign” fails to address Nissan Leaf’s bad crash results. In fact, the hand waving appears to solely be misdirection.
Your specious claims for future “better battery” and “better safety” are baseless predictions. Nor has the current Nissan leaf demonstrated either; as those safety tests include 2017.
So again, I never said that they got good test scores and again, the 2013 “redesign” did NOT address the frame. And as I said before, the Leaf is in many ways the worst case scenario of EVs that have been available thus far. The Leaf isn’t the only EV on the market anymore. Other options do exist and they score better in safety tests, have more range, and have better battery management that the Leaf has had up until this point. That is a fact, but you’re still stuck on the Leaf.
Used Prius cars are in demand in Mongolia due to their ability to operate in very low temperatures (as well as for tax reasons and reliability). There are also mountains of used batteries that pose an environmental hazard. There is no defense necessary for a product that consumers really want. Even poor, not well educated Mongolian sheep herders can figure out what make sense for them.
NO DEFENSE IS NECESSARY FOR A PRODUCT CONSUMERS REALLY WANT.
Combined unit sales greater than 1,000 vehicles per year!
At $2,000 to $6,000 per car; plus local dedicated Japanese Engineers…
Be still our beating hearts.
Another specious claim, busted!
It’s a Hybrid, not an EV, don’t you know the difference, it has an ICE engine DOH.
“but those are really just engineering issues”
Let this engineer explain, it’s the battery stupid!
I worked in the power industry. If BEV were even remotely a good idea, I would own one.
If solar panels were a good idea, I would have them.
Engineers like me are not demographic for marketers of junk.
I do have a hobby. Sailing! I have no illusions that it will again be a practical form of transportation. It has an flat head tractor ICE in case the wind stops. If the ICE needs to be replaced, there is an electric drive that recharges the battery when there is enough wind to turn the propeller.
Noticed I used the word ‘if’. If the Ford F-150 stops being the best selling truck and if the Toyota Corolla stops being the the best selling cars, maybe BEV will increase market share.
However, people buy BEV to be different. BEV would stop being ‘cool’.
This unit on the link below will allow ev cars to carry their own 240v AC power supply to charge car batteries. In a car with 2 batteries one will be charged while the other is in use, and swap the charging as and when.
It is based on moving coil bass loudspeaker drive units.
I have been sending it around to many car manufacturers.
Cheers,
Alwyn
This unit on the link below will allow ev cars to carry their own 240v AC power supply to charge car batteries. In a car with 2 batteries one will be charged while the other is in use, and swap the charging as and when.
It is based on moving coil bass loudspeaker drive units.
I have been sending it around to many car manufacturers.
https://youtu.be/af4HkxRggA4
Like many great plans they don’t hold up as the numbers get bigger or conditions get less favourable. While people often don’t go long distance more than a few dozen times a year in the UK (half dozen too small), those long trips are often at the same times that everyone else gets on the roads. Christmas, Easter, kids holidays, bank holidays. Just look at a service station car park on those days. You won’t be usng the loos and having a meal, you’ll be queuing for the chargers and woe betide you spend too long away from your car because there will be a dozen furious drivers when you come back. With a high numbers of EVs on the motorways, even ordinary days would see many more people needing a decent charge.
Imagine if you’re caught in a masive queue on the motorway or it starts to snow. What do you do if you need to go out before you’ve had a chance to charge up? The quality of a vehicle is as much about how well it operates in adverse conditions as at best.
Another thing to remember The EV ranges mentioned are not at highway speeds.
Also the neat ” cans” in the photo are surrounded by 1200 pounds of battery.
What is t environmental footprint of that?
The bottom line is this: If you like EVs, and you think an EV is right for you, then by all means, get an EV.
Just stop asking the rest of us to subsidize it.
Perfect summation, Bartemis!
1000++
And I want to stop subsidizing the gas or diesel powered car industry and the billions it costs in increased health care expenses. Sound good to you?
For EV..ils to become forced upon us and/or commonly accepted, recharging forecourts (whether at a Mac’s or Costco) will need lots of stalls (read lots of acres, which the store..owners / franchisees will be reluctant to cede) and banks of black..belching diesel..gen..sets for when sun and/or wind is off..grid and/or what power is available is rationed..over to essentials like Hospitals. That’s assuming every subscribing Mac’s and Costco can be re..wired to take the demand of bays..full of simultanously recharging EV..ils…… failing which, 100% reliance on belching diesel gen..sets.
The n’bours are going to be really pleased with noise and pollution.
It would be beautifully ironic for Griff to have such an EV..ils’ reharging station next..door to him …. out of the Fry..Pan, into the fire, buddy!
I would like a small two door two seat hatch back to run around town.
They don’t make one gas or electric.
If they did, and they were similarly priced, I’d go with the electric.
Uh – what about heaters and air conditioning especially heaters?
Didn’t read all comments maybe someone covered that part.
I don’t give a flying crap if electric cars are “Good” for the environment or not.
Word search says nobody mentioned air conditioning or heaters.
I found 3 hits for “a/c”
I found 19 hits for “cooling”
A used Nissan Leaf will likely meet your needs, although it does have four doors. 😉
They include a heater and an air conditioner, in newer vehicles it is a heat pump.
Toronto used to have buses that ran on electricity powered by an overhead grid. They were similar to street cars. Could something like this could be installed on major inter-city routes? I guess the electricity flowing through the grid would have to be frighteningly strong.
You can pry my ICE vehicle from my cold, dead hands.
And what use is electric cars in the long distances in Australia? I am talking of long distances without a power pole in sight.
There are old technologies that are being ignored by the manufacturers that can make these electric vehicles better. The will not do it because it will make them energy independent and not need a source of external power.
I challenge you to look up free energy on the internet. Where by using a small electric motor and a flywheel can power a larger electric generator. Since you would be driving a vehicle with electric motors powered by a battery anyway. Having a flywheel system to a generator to keep the battery charged, would require a smaller battery that reduces vehicle weight and can eliminate any outside charging source, by using a small electric motor that keeps running the flywheel/generator as long as the key is on. With the current regulated to keep the battery at optimal temperature variations. Overheating batteries is the main problem with most of these current systems. Causing them to degrade and reduces performance. By incorporating an HVA/C system for the battery pack would be possible with a onboard charging system with a smaller battery and equalize the weight back to the heavier bigger battery.
As with everything there are positives and negatives. Moving weight requires more energy. But an onboard charging system would eliminate any outside charging system and create a longer traveling distance and reduce the long charging times to cooling time if no onboard cooling system is added. By using a HVA/C the H being heating for cold weather startups, that electrons move slower when cold. A negative would be the diameter of the flywheel that needs to be vertical for gravity to make them work. So some car designs may be affected.
Automotive companies are moving away from the ICE with plans to eliminate them in the 2020’s. That places power plants needed more and more to handle the increased urbanization. We – here – realize the farce of renewables that are weather dependant. But Nuclear is never going to be incorporated into vehicles for the common mankind use with all of its regulations. Even though normal gasoline is as explosive as carrying boxes of TNT in your family car. And a big battery pack is extremely explosive when damaged. I like the scene in the movie “I Robot” when Will Smith gets out his crotch rocket and his partner gets panicky that it runs on gas.
Well that’s my 2 cents on this.
Another name for a flywheel is gyroscope.
If you had enough energy in your “flywheel” to drive your car more than a few miles, the car would flip over every time you tried to change directions.
Beyond that, when a fly wheel fails, it always fails catestrophically. It ends up releasing 100% of the energy stored in the flywheel in a matter of milliseconds.
Can you say boom, boys and girls?
If electric vehicles are not subsidized with tax payer dollar$, they will need no dissembling, disingenuous ‘defen$e’.
Free markets and informed, rational consumer are very good at deciding what provides the greatest utility for dollars expended!
Well, if someone gave me an electric car, I might keep it to go to and from work. (About a 15 mile round trip.)
But, I’d most likely react the same as if someone gave me a Picasso. Instead of hanging it on my wall, I’d sell it and buy something I liked.
To each his own.
Auto makers are not primarily engine makers. Engines are a big part, but not the all-and-all of automobiles. Witness the ease with which Prius and others electric/gasoline hybrids have entered the market with little or no disruption. Heavy haul trucks will not be electric for a long time yet — and the same may be true for work trucks of all types.
Auto makers will not be threatened by the shift to electrics as the technology advances and societal infrastructure adapts to their adoption.
For the next decade or so, electrics represent an opportunity to have more offerings to the public which can be parlayed into more sales.
The problem is similar to the adoption of natural gas/propane vehicles….the practicalities have limited their introduction — useful if one has a fleet of vehicles that returns to a central yard each night and doesn’t travel past the fuel range during any one day. But the general pubic needs cars that can be driven all day and fueled up on the run without major delays or hunting around for a rare fueling station.
Same with electric — if it is your “housewife/househusband car” — just used to drop the kids at the local school and run to market, but spending most of its time in the garage plugged in, then all is good.
Most homes are not equipped to charge an electric car quickly — it requires a 240-volt/50 to 60 amp dedicated outlet and special charging equipment — this is to charge overnight — NOT 20 minutes.
” DC fast charging uses direct current (DC) rather than household alternating current (AC) and is very high-powered. This means that only public sites dedicated to DC charging, often along highways, are practical—given the higher cost of the utility having to install dedicated high-power lines.” [ link ]
The shift to all electric cars still requires breakthroughs in energy storage (batteries) and major societal infra-structure changes.
Think of the changes necessary to install an additional 60-100 amps of 240 volt power to every home in your suburban neighborhood — that’s per car, btw, so double for two-cars households. Since most older homes have only 100-200 amp service, and the street power lines are designed for that times the number of homes, it may require rebuilding the entire city distribution grid, in addition to running new service to every electric-car home. Not going to happen fast.
Note: This electric distribution problem occurred in the past with the attempt to shift to all-electric homes — few neighborhoods had the distribution gird necessary to upgrade all the homes to 200 amp service. Now, more is needed “Modern houses are generally built with 200 amp panels, and a lot of the newer ones are going 300-350 amps as more and more electronic devices and fancy and high-demand kitchen devices and increased lighting are used in homes.”
A 15 amp 110v circuit charges my Leaf overnight, typically in about 5 hours for my usage.
A 240v 50A circuit provides around 12kw. An hour of charging at this rate provides about 48 miles of range. Average person drives 30 miles a day.
Houses may be built with larger meters but that isn’t because they are actually using that much power. For example, if a homeowner was actually using 200 amps at 240 volts, as you suggest, it would cost them $138 per day at an average cost of $0.12/kwh. That’s $4,147 per month. Doesn’t happen.
The higher capacity and larger wires provide for lower losses in the conductors and prevent voltage droop when large loads such as air conditioners start up.
Or when charging your electric car with 240 volt fast charge DC charging systems. Obviously houses don’t continuously use all 200 amps of power — but the power must be available. Installing fast chargers on homes will probably require upgrades to the main house feed.
Anthony – There is a possible future solution that eliminates the need for fast-charge. Electric trains and trams do not carry the energy needed for their journey, they draw it in as they go. When roads can supply energy for EVs, then EVs will be able to go any distance non-stop. (They may still have to carry the energy needed for unequipped minor roads, but on a typical long journey this would be a minor part).
MJ,
By “unequipped minor roads,” I presume that you mean the majority of the mileage. Have you ever been out of the city? Who is going to pay for using the ‘non-minor’ roads, and how will the power be metered so that everyone pays their fair share?
Technology has a knack of not matching prediction, so I need to tread cautiously and not actually predict anything!. The concept is that an electric train doesn’t carry it’s power, so maybe an electric road vehicle wouldn’t have to. I don’t see any particular reason why all major roads wouldn’t be equipped to supply power when they have worked out a cost-effective way to do it. I envisage power being supplied from within the road itself (https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/transportation/infrastructure/another-transit-system-tests-inductivecharging-buses), but that might not be necessary (eg. http://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-lunch-or-theft/1805). And I see no reason why each EV’s offtake couldn’t be measured reliably – a tamper-proof meter in the EV would work but there would be better solutions.
One minor detail. Cost.
Second minor detail, safety, High curent or high voltage electricity kills.
First off, powering trains off of overhead lines is mostly in cities and other high traffic corridors.
The vast majority of track miles are not powered. The train carries it’s power source in the engine. Usually diesel/electric.
Secondly, compare the number of road miles in this country to the number of track miles.
Thirdly, cars aren’t trains. Trains go from a to b and back again, over and over. Cars on the other hand go everywhere to everywhere, you will have to modify your power system to allow cars to switch from one road to another, heck you would have to modify it just to allow them to switch from one lane to another.
It’s one thing to just declare something a good idea, it’s another thing entirely to actually make it work.
When I was a kid and visited my Grandparents, they didn’t have trolleys anymore but they did still have buses that ran on overhead electric power. That city no longer has them. Perhaps subsidies will bring them back?
(Maybe even the trolleys?)
‘there is no intrinsic problem in reaching a 20 minute charge.”
Horseradish. Charging is pouring electric energy, the common measure of which is KWh (1 KWh=3.6MJ) into the battery. The rate at which the energy flows is measured by Watts. The relation Watts = Volts × Amps is definitional. A common household circuit is fused at 15 Amps and 120 volts. Ergo, Such a circuit carries not more than 1.8 KW. A dryer circuit is 30 Amps at 240 volts or 7.2 KW. An 85 KWh Tesla could take more than 12 hours to be fully charged.
If you want to charge faster, you must increase the voltage or the amperage of your charging circuit. Get ready to don your rubber boots, rubber gloves, and safety glasses. Further, if you are charging faster you will drain the grid faster. Of course you could install super capacitors.
To move 85 KWh in 20 minutes, you will need a circuit to that can deliver 255 Kw. If you have a 720 volt line you would only need 355 Amps. Of course charging that fast will create a lot of heat, maybe you can cool it with liquid nitrogen.
… and you’ll need a cable with a diameter of ~12mm per wire.
https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Diesel-electric cars, like diesel-electric railway locomotives would make much more sense as they have long range and good torque. Battery operated electric cars need overnight recharging sources which are not solar and frequently not wind driven, so there is no less CO2 emitted. They also have cripplingly short ranges for Australia where 700km.-1000km. is frequently needed.
We are a long way from an electric flying car. If some countries weren’t so paranoid about their borders, we would all be flying our flying cars in a straight line from A to B (and saving vast quantities of fuel in the process).
Airlines are gradually switching over to direct flight, which allows them to fly directly from one city to the next.
In the past they were required to fly from one navigational beacon to the next. Sometimes this resulted in a path that was more or less direct, but most of the time they ended up having to zig-zag a bit.
The ICE converts solid fuel, liquid or gaseous fuels to mechanical energy .
The steam engine converts solid fuel, liquid and gaseous fuels to mechanical energy
This energy is transmitted to the point of use(the wheels for road vehicles) using mechanical or electrical systems.
Electricity is a means of transferring power from one place (where generated) to another ( the point of use)
Mechanical transmission is a means of transferring power from one place (where generated) to another (the point of use).
Electrical transmission systems for vehicles have matured significantly in recent times with the advent of solid state devices and micrcomputers.
The electric motor does not convert solid fuel, liquid or gaseous fuels to mechanical energy( I’ve used thousands of them).
In two weeks I will drive to Chicago to celebrate Thanksgiving. It is about 360 mile from our house to our daughter’s. It takes about 6 hours. I can make it on one 15 gallon tank easily. There will be no drama if I get stuck in traffic in Gary, which happens fairly regularly. I will probably stop at Exit 240 on I69 to gas up (There is a Pilot and a Flying J there) and pee. It will take longer to pee than to gas up. I will do that because gas is very expensive in Chicago. Do that with your electric car.
😎
One of our instrument techs told of when he was in tech school of throwing a charged capacitor into the urinals.
Your techs have a wicked sense of humor.