'Why haven't we done something already?': California mulling ban on fossil-fuel vehicles

From The National Post

China will also likely order an end to sales of all polluting vehicles by 2030, the chairman of electric-carmaker BYD Co. said Thursday

LOS ANGELES, CA – JULY 07: Traffic flows under the Mulholland Bridge on Interstate 405 which is slated to be demolished during the 11 miles shut down of Interstate 405 on July 7, 2011 in Los Angeles, California. The interstate 405 will be closed for 53 hours due to a freeway widening project starting July 16. Los Angeles city officials are advising residents to stay home or stay away from the area over the weekend fearing massive traffic jams of what has become known as “Carmageddon.” (Photo by Kevork Djansezian/Getty Images)

The internal combustion engine’s days may be numbered in California, where officials are mulling whether a ban on sales of polluting autos is needed to achieve long-term targets for cleaner air.

Governor Jerry Brown has expressed an interest in barring the sale of vehicles powered by internal-combustion engines, Mary Nichols, chairman of the California Air Resources Board, said in an interview Friday at Bloomberg headquarters in New York. The earliest such a ban is at least a decade away, she said.

Brown, one of the most outspoken elected official in the U.S. about the need for policies to combat climate change, would be replicating similar moves by China, France and the U.K.

Governor Jerry Brown of California discusses climate action at ‘We The Future’ at Ted Theater on Thursday, Sept. 21, 2017 in New York. Stuart Ramson/AP Images for UN Foundation

“I’ve gotten messages from the governor asking, ‘Why haven’t we done something already?’” Nichols said, referring to China’s planned phase-out of fossil-fuel vehicle sales. “The governor has certainly indicated an interest in why China can do this and not California.”

Embracing such a policy would send shockwaves through the global car industry due to the heft of California’s auto market. More than 2 million new passenger vehicles were registered in the state last year, topping France, Italy or Spain. If a ban were implemented, automakers from General Motors Co. to Toyota Motor Corp. would be under new pressure to make electric vehicles the standard for personal transportation in the most populous U.S. state, casting fresh doubts on the future of gasoline- and diesel-powered autos elsewhere.

The Association of Global Automakers said consumers must be able to afford the cleaner cars that California says are needed to meet its climate goals. The trade association represents Toyota, Honda Motor Co. and other overseas carmakers in the U.S.

A BYD Co. E6 electric taxi, center, stands in traffic at an intersection in Taiyuan, Shanxi province, China, on Tuesday, Sept. 13, 2016. Qilai Shen/Bloomberg

“We have been working with California on intelligent, market-based approaches to emissions reductions beyond 2025, and we hope that this doesn’t signal an abandonment of that position,” Global Automakers Chief Executive Officer John Bozzella said in a statement.

California has set a goal to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 80 per cent from 1990 levels by 2050. Rising emissions from on-road transportation has undercut the state’s efforts to reduce pollution, according to Next 10, San Francisco-based non-profit.

“To reach the ambitious levels of reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, we have to pretty much replace all combustion with some form of renewable energy by 2040 or 2050,” Nichols said. “We’re looking at that as a method of moving this discussion forward.”

California has the authority to write its own pollution rules, which dates back to the 1970 Clean Air Act. Those rules are underpinned by waivers granted by the Environmental Protection Agency.

Nichols said the state would likely take a different legal route to enable a possible ban rather than use an EPA waiver, since the Trump administration would be unlikely to approve one. For example, California could use vehicle registration rules or control the vehicles that can access state highways, she said.

Read the rest of the story here.

HT | Earthling2

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Latitude

Has anyone tried to figure out how many charging stations they would need…and how long it would take to install and get them up and running

Rhoda R

And how much power the grid would have to be able t deliver to charge all these toys?

higley7

That’s the Achilles heel. They do not begin to understand that going all electric with cars means an even more robust power grid as the cars will need charging as needed. Going with green energy means they will pursue industrial-scale batteries, which will easily quadruple the cost of wind and solar. Then, we have the already aging wind and solar that are beginning to need to be replaced. About eight years ago there were some 15000 dead turbines in the US, many more by now, and more to come.
Part of Puerto Rico’s power problems at the moment are not just that the power grid is broken, but the wind and solar installations are destroyed and will take years to repair. A few floating nuclear power plants form the Navy and some diesel generators and they will be back on line. It just takes time to ship all the heavy equipment to an island. Those who are complaining of the government response are just trouble makers taking advantage of the situation.

Gary Pearse

And how long to fill up 15million cars? I hope there is no need for emergency evacuations.

Bryan A

The grid supply would effectively need to triple to allow for both charging cars and quick charging station back-up batteries. Also to maintain the charge of the battery back-ups that homes would need to have.
As far as charging stations go, they would easily need as many quick chargers as current gas pumps as well as a charging station at every house for every auto. They need to be able to recharge in 10 minutes at stations without compromising the car battery life or integrity.

I Came I Saw I Left

Here’s a video showing some of that damaged wind/solar infrastructure in PR. It’s hard to tell how much damage there is to the solar facility.

Griff

higley – those ‘dead turbines’ were small multiple towered 1980s designs – nothing like modern turbines.
The worlds first dismantling of an offshore wind farm after its expected 25 year lifespan took place successfully this year

Trebla

And how the massive amount of electrical energy would be generated without using fossil fuels?

What happens when there is the usual traffic jam … how many batteries will run out in situ?

Archer

Meanwhile, Griff, small 1980s-era coal and gas plants are still running as they have for decades, while weathering just about every kind of weather you can throw at them. Sure, they don’t work offshore… there’s no rational way to end that sentence.
Even off-shore wind produces a fraction of the power necessary to sustain a first-world industrial or post-industrial economy. There simply isn’t enough energy available, even assuming 100% extraction efficiency.

Philip T

I did some research for my own edification a few weeks ago on this topic. The figures below are for the entire USA, not for California, but I think you’ll get the idea. I’m not a scientist so feel free to correct me, but I’ll post the links to where I obtained my data.
So, currently, we drive 3.22 trillion miles per year in the US.
The average fuel consumption is 24.8 miles per gallon.
1 GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent) = 33.4 kWh
3.22 trillion divided by 24.8 then multiplied by 33.4 is “approximately” (did it in my head, even if my calculator did go that high I don’t know how many zeroes are in 1 trillion),
Answer: 4 Trillion kwh
Which, coincidentally, is the current annual utility-scale production of electricity in the US.
Let’s be nice and assume a better mpg average of double what the internal combustion engines are getting. An equivalent of 50mpg. That would halve the 4 Trillion kwh number. I haven’t looked into transmission loss, but there would be some for sure. I’d also assume that the national grid would have to be beefed up to carry the extra load.
So let’s put the number at somewhere north of an extra 2 Trillion kwh per year if all IC engines disappeared overnight.
Sites I got data from:
https://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/
(over 120 cool graph and charts)
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427
(Energy data)
https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity1 were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States.2 About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016

george e. smith

Moonbrown should start the ball rolling by declaring that as of Oct. 1 2017, no Ca. State agency will be allowed to purchase or use in any State function any vehicle of any kind that is not powered by electric batteries. And all existing State owned internal combustion engine vehicles must be scrapped by Oct 31 2017, and may not be sold as functioning vehicles.
Problem solved.
G

ImranCan

Referring to that video of the Puerto Rico wind turbines, didn’t anyone think that putting these machines in a hurricane prone area was going to be a ‘disaster waiting to happen’ ?

Gene

Philip T.
3.22 trillion miles times the average 0.35 KWh/mile ( small- mid sized automobile on 30 % small hills and 70% flat, in stable moderate (70’s deg F) ambient temperature, at half highway, half urban speeds) is 1,127,000,000 KWh (1.13 Trillion KWh) for the US. Of course both lower and higher temperatures will reduce the power output of the lithium batteries, even causing some to catch fire and explode in summertime desert conditions. As well the energy demands for trucking will make automobile use pale tin comparison.
Certainly grid power generation and distribution will be an issue especially if these cars are being charged at night when most renewables power sources are at minimal production (California Governor Brown has also set a state goal of 100% renewable power generation by 2030.)
Power generation and distribution will be insurmountable, but the real limiting factor will be the available source of lithium for the batteries and production of the batteries to provide automobiles, trucking, and a stable renewable power generation grid. Given that China is making a push for Lithium battery dependent transportation as well, the supplies of available lithium will dwindle and cost of lithium batteries will skyrocket as the limited supply will stimulate extreme demand.
Given the dedication of “Moonbeam” Brown to drive California into energy bankruptcy, there is opportunity for the wise investor in Lithium mining operations, suppliers, battery manufacturers, battery research (Tesla’s batteries are still too low a power density, and too low a production scale to provide the necessary solution.) Also fossil fuel (NG) power generation facilities in the states that surround California will be have high demand, as they will be providing the majority of California’s power even before but defiantly after 2030.

Old England

I just pray that some stupid nation, state or politician implements a on the ban sales of internal combustion engine vehicles by 2027.
That will give sufficient time to demonstrate the lunacy of it well before the UK’s own proposed ban due for 2040.
Maybe California needs to go through the very painful learning curve that a ban like this would mean; it might bring a touch of reality to their green fantasies ……..

Delusional psychosis runs in fads.

Dave Fair

Brown and his eco-nut cronies will run into the wrath of car-addicted Californians. Libs always push too hard and eventually get a backlash from regular folks. Some places, like CA, it just takes a little longer.

Greg

No, California would have too much knock on effect. You don’t use a fully laden school bus as a crash test vehicle.
Maybe South Australia would like to be the crash test dummy again. They are suitably committed to “saving the planet”.

… why China can do this and not California.”

Duh, because it is a communist dictatorship, that’s why. They also have a REAL pollution problem that their population is choking on REAL traffic and industrial pollution. . They are not doing what they are doing because of some hypothesised effect in a hundred years from a failed climate model.

Bryan A

It would certainly curtail any interstate transport of goods that required trucks to stop in California to refuel.

rocketscientist

Please not California I live there. How about South Australia? They seem more willing to be the crash test dummies. And I’ll wager they have far fewer cars to replace.
The sad part about CA is that there is good portion of the populace who cannot even afford to maintain well understood inexpensive automobile technology. Who do the politicians expect will be paying to maintain these new computerized electric vehicles?

bitchilly

the sooner the better. long ago i came to the conclusion that the large amount of psychedelic drugs consumed over generations by many californians and those attracted by the hippy culture to the place have created severe mental defects in a large part of the population.
slowing down the spread of these mentally deficient mutants by removing easy transport would be a good thing. why so many apparently decent people want to live among the above mentioned fools i do not know.

george e. smith

Well it’s almost October already, and I still see State owned air polluting vehicles out on the roads in Sunnyvale. I guess Emperor JB isn’t really serious after all.
G

don rady

Greens don’t learn. They just say we didn’t go far enough with socialism and green energy. They will never admit they were wrong, just put the blame on someone or something else.

Santa Baby

With Agenda 21/2030/Smart growth etc.. we are like people in Communist Soviet going to be stuck in our towns walking or bicycling. The road back to serfdom?

Dave Fair

Baby! Haven’t you learned that all alt-Left (socialists) 5-year plans unfold exactly as specified.

Ziiex Zeburz

Pray do tell me What is going to replace the Hundreds of Billions in gas taxes ??????

Hans-Georg

My stamps collections are full of 5- or 10-year plans from the time of the Eastern bloc. The bankruptcy of the entire Eastern bloc did not take five years, but this was also foreseen. It will be the same in California. Introduction of a technology “by state” is doomed. And how does California intend to prevent the entry of petrol or diesel cars from other parts of the USA? I always thought there was full mutual freedom in the US? Can this be a state leverage? I think no – blocking highways for certain car types or non-approval of certain car types? Then a new classification of CO2 as a pollutant would be necessary, which would probably be obsolete by Trumps EPA conversion. And this is also the case in the foreseen proceedings before the United States Supreme Court, because there is not only freedom of speech but also freedom of travel and freedom of establishment in the United States. Nothing but propaganda to contradict Trump. This is what the Americans have known since Trump was elected. I would be quite relaxed.

Bill Treuren

has anyone worked out how few people will live in CA actually if this came to pass.

george e. smith

It’s already the law in California that you can’t legally drive a vehicle here (cept as a short time visitor) (tourist) that does not conform to CA air pollution standards, which are stricter than Federal.
G

This Jim G, not the other Jim G.

Read up on the Cloward-Piven Strategy.
This is right out of their playbook.

The Reverend Badger

I have done some figuring out for my very local area. 21 houses, rural hamlet, UK. Cost to upgrade 11kV transformer & LV (240V) distribution to 21 properties to go all electric for cars c. £400,000 . That is just the electricity supply company work, excludes work in individual house to add charging points of 10kW capacity per car. More if electric heating added (everyone here currently oil or LPG central heating – no gas mains).

Griff

solar power plus batteries would cover most of it… ground sourced heat pumps need little power.
Max 10K for panels/batteries per house, cost falling.

MarkW

Ground sourced heat pumps need little power?
Griff is as delusional as ever.
Ground sourced heat pumps are more efficient than regular heat pumps, provided they are properly constructed and your yard has sufficient room to support one. However they are still the biggest power draw in your average house.

Griff, heat pumps and electrical heating in general are only effective if you have a very well isolated house, which most old houses in the country aren’t. Moreover, your solar panels only show 10% of the summer capacity in mid-winter, besides some “small” disturbances like 20 cm (or more) of snow on them… Thus anyway, you need the backup of the grid and regional/national storage in any form, as solar may be of help during the day, but most cars are at the work centers, where they need the load, together with all the computers, machinery,…
The local grid is designed for about 1.5 kW per every household simultaneous used. If 1 in 4 houses has 6 kW peak solar panels on its roof, that works fine. If every household has 6 kW peak solar panels you need to quadruple the capacity of the local distribution network, as there is little household use during a working day and the cars are at the working place and the household batteries get full. That is where Germany is running into problems by now…

Nigel S

Until the inverter catches fire and burns the house down as recently happened to the elderly parent of a neighbour who had just finished a major home refurbishment.

Bryan A

Sorry Griff,
Just ran the numbers last week (again). My house was priced out 5 years ago at $80,000 for a system that could supply my daily need. In deed the cost of solar panels has come down but the vast majority was for Support as they can’t go on my roof and I have very little yard space so an awning structure with concrete footings would be needed. The current price of solar panels places the cost for me at $72,000 today. The reduction in panels will save me $8,000 today over 5 years ago. Unfortunately it would still take me 32 years of usage to break even on the initial expenditure. Since I am 54 I would break even when I am 86 but then need to replace aging panels again and wouldn’t see Break-even until I die.

rocketscientist

Bryan A,
Its even worse. The typical solar panel only has a 20 year life span…in outer space! But, stuck on Earth exposure to weather and detritus take their toll as well. With a 32 year payback, you’d still be owing for these things while they’d be as useful as shingles. BTW the inverters don’t last as long as the panels.

Griff, how do you use ground sourced heat pumps to charge an electric car?

catweazle666

“solar power plus batteries would cover most of it… “
Rubbish.

John Hardy

revd. badger – there are 10kw electric showers in use already. average UK mileage for private cars is 21 i.e. 5-7 Kw hours. you could do that overnight from an ordinary 3 pin plug several times over

catweazle666

“there are 10kw electric showers in use already. average UK mileage for private cars is 21 i.e. 5-7 Kw hours.”
Assuming the average car travels three miles per day.
A statistic about as useful as the one that says the average family has 2.4 children.

paul

and a few electric vehicles with flat batteries on freeways OMG

MarkW

With ICE vehicles, a kind Samaritan with a 1 gallon gas can, and those cars are back on the road. Electric, not so much.

Jeff Labute

It’s a good marketing idea though and you could probably sell a million of them – a Jerrycan shaped battery. They’ll sell in California even though they’ll never get used.

Joel Snider

You don’t really think they take things like that into account, do you?

Ok. But no using electricity generated from fossil fuels to make this happen. Exporting your emissions doesn’t get you any points.

Larry

Hydro-electric and nuclear are also on the do not generate electricity.

And where exactly does the electricity come from?

Don

The same place the money comes from for all other socialist nonsense: Fantasyland

Louis Hooffstetter

Rainbows, fairy dust, & unicorn farts.

RoHa

No problem. We put solar panels and a wind turbine on top of the cars. During the day, some of the electricity goes to charge the battery. This will be used when the car runs at night. Of course, the wind of the car’s passage will turn the turbine and generate more electricity. ingenious, eh?
Send me lots of money so that I can develop this concept and iron out a few kinks.

F. Leghorn

And you could point the headlights at the solar panels to go even faster.

rocketscientist

Squiggy9000,
I’m sure there’s a seat on Moonbeam’s advisory panel you’d fill nicely. 😉

BallBounces

California should also ban the use of water, the mother of all greenhouse pollutants.

Irritable Bill

To Ballbounces, I heard that the rural areas of California are working on succeeding from the socialists…has anyone kept up with that? Part of the reason is California’s massive draining of water from the farmers. And this insane edict from on high may well hasten things along.
Also China is building hundreds if not thousands more coal fired power stations, as is Germany, France, Japan etc. But not Australia, so watch what happens here over the next couple of years, in Australia we are about to wind up in the dark and without power in summer due to the Globalist dream and zero consultation or consideration of their voters!!

MarkW

I hope they are successful in seceding.

It will be interesting to see what CA does when it becomes more widely known that CO2 is not pollution and has no significant effect on climate.

Joe Wagner

Stick their collective fingers in their ears and shout: “WE CAN’T HEAR YOU!!! LALALALALALALALA!”

Tom Halla

And adding a charging station to a single-family residence would cost thousands of dollars, and might not be possible or even more expensive in areas with underground electric distribution. A minimum of 100 amps more service per residence, which would probably also require new mains, which if underground, would be more expense.
Adding service to apartments would be even more of a clusterobscenity, even if there were enough parking places.

commieBob

Tesla has a 100 kwh battery. link
Even a slow charge over 10 hours would require 10 kw. The code where I live says that the continuous load on a 15 amp breaker is 1200 watts. So, charging the Tesla would take the equivalent of 8 fifteen amp breakers. It would probably be two 60 amp breakers.
My electric clothes dryer runs off two 30 amp breakers. A 60 amp 220 volt circuit doesn’t seem too crazy.
On the other hand, if I want to charge my hypothetical Tesla in one hour … they’re going to have to run some new wires into my whole new electric panel. Not only that but something tells me that the neighbours are going to notice when I plug the Tesla in. 🙂
My neighbours are pretty competitive. If I get a Tesla, they will all get Teslas. If they all decide to do a one hour charge at the same time, it’s pretty much going to melt the wires. The electric company is going to need a new substation.

The Reverend Badger

Invest in copper futures. The massive profit will offset the 1000% increase in the night tariff.

John Hardy

CommieBob. I expect you know that watts is Volts x Amps so 60 Amps at 220 volts is a bit over 13 Kw which would charge a 300 mile range car from empty in 7 – 8 hours. Your side of the pond average miles per day is around 30 so on average charge requirements would be 7-10 kW-hrs which would be like leaving your dryer on for :30 – :45 minutes

commieBob

John Hardy September 29, 2017 at 1:46 am
… 60 Amps at 220 volts is a bit over 13 Kw …

The code won’t let you continuously load a breaker to its tripping point. Off the top of my head, the limit would be 1200 watts on a 15 amp breaker. That extrapolates to 4800 watts on a 60 amp breaker on 120 volts and 9600 watts on two 60 amp breakers on a 220 volt circuit. I rounded to 10 kw for ease of arithmetic.
If you add up the ampacity of all the circuit breakers in the box, you come up with a number that is several times that of the main breaker. You’re allowed to assume that the home owner isn’t going to load every circuit to maximum at the same time. If that happens, that’s what the main breaker is for.
The electrical utility isn’t protected the same way. It is quite possible for fault conditions to cause equipment to explode. The possibility, that all the Tesla owners in a neighbourhood would fast charge their vehicles at the same time, exists and would probably cause problems for the utility. You could probably calculate the probability of a circuit being overloaded and choose how often you are willing to let that happen. If you’re designing a telephone system the calculation is straightforward. I don’t know if they have an equivalent for power systems.

MarkW

Most chargers are only about 95% efficient. So the power draw will be closer to 10.5Kw.

MarkW

Fast charge would be even less efficient because of the greater current draw.

Matthew R Epp

How many households in California have only 1 car? Figure a family of four with driving age children and now you have at minimum 4 vehicles that would need a daily charge.
They may not need a full charge everyday but it is reasonable that on any given day all 4 would need a full charge, and probably overnight.
4 x 10Kw = 40 Kwh for up to 10 hours. Assuming a 220 circuit for each and you have (10,000/220)~45 Amps x 4 = 180 Amp continuous load.
Add in TV, fridge, lights, stereo, water heater, clothes dryer, stove, etc., and you’re well over 200 Amps. Most residential panels are rated for 200 Amps with a 150 Amp main breaker.
Lots of gotcha costs not being considered.

Dave Fair

A thought experiment: Where people primarily park in the streets, can you imagine the vandalism on those hundreds of thousands charging stations? And lets not forget the massive investments in such charging stations, along with their related electrical generation, transmission and distribution systems.

The Reverend Badger

It’s the charging leads that are going to get stolen first. The charging stations themselves will be pretty robust but covered in graffiti, chewing gum and smelling of piss. Though there might be useful night time industry in breaking them open and stealing copper, even a couple of feet of thick wiring is worth stealing. They nick the odd yard of earth tape from substations and cell towers these days.

Dave Fair

As a past engineering manager and CEO of power companies, Rev, we took steps to counter inventive copper thieves: Energize the conductors terminating on newly constructed poles/towers and burying underground cables daily during construction, among other anti-theft measures.
Dispersed, local electrical charging infrastructure will not fare well.

Nigel S

Pissing on charging stations might produce unwelcome surprises.
The locals even stole the cables to the lifting bridge over The Swale!
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/sheppey-railway-cable-crooks-jailed-for-20-months-1-1392535?usurv=skip

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7

This is another issue with EV’s: most people currently driving the least efficient and most polluting IC vehicles live in apartments which often don’t have covered parking. In some older urban neighborhoods apartment dwellers must use on-street parking, so access to charging stations is a major blocker. And the issue of electrical capacity upgrades hits higher-density housing more so than single-family residences.

Edward Katz

No one should attach too much credibility to whatever China says it’s “going to do”. It was supposed to have reduced its emissions; yet it admitted a few years ago that it has under-reported them by 17%. It’s supposed to halt them by 2030, but it still is building coal plants at a steady pace besides financing new ones in Africa, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Vietnam. And even if it does halt them, there’s no guarantee it will reverse them in the years following. So when it claims in 2017 it will stop the sale of gasoline-powered vehicles 13 years later, we’d be wise to take a wait-and-see attitude. As for California, it seems that consumer opinion may determine exactly what actions the government takes and how fast. For one, unless the price of electrics becomes more affordable without subsidies, people will continue to steer clear of them.

Griff

It isn’t building coal plants at a steady rate.
See IEA link in Charles’ article here recently on China

Bryan A

Certainly they are…All over the world.
Because of (BOO) Builder Owner Operator rules China is building numerous coal powered facilities around the globe. That way China will not only charge the countries for the cost of buillding the facility but also for the energy they produce as Owner Operator.

catweazle666

Another flat out lie Skanky you patronising little twerp, as can be very easily demonstrated by a quick check round the Internet.
Why do you seem to believe that the readers of this blog are so stupid that they will fall for your repeated outpourings of mendacious rubbish?
Have you apologised for slandering Dr. Crockford yet?

“The governor has certainly indicated an interest in why China can do this and not California.”
Well, the answer to that Jerry is simply that China hasn’t done it. You can’t do it because China hasn’t. No one has. It pretty much can’t be done, but that’s an engineering problem Jerry. You need to be able to count past 20 to understand.

tetris

Even if China were able to rigorously enforce such a ban, it would only be because it in fact ticks all the boxes defining it as a fully fledged, sophisticated high tech fascist state – the first such the world has actually witnessed.
California talks a lot about grandiose green plans but I somehow doubt that as long as it has a modicum of a democratic system, anyone – even a Moonbeam squared- would get away with an outright state enforced ban. If I’m wrong, it’s in far worse shape than I imagined.

Hugs

China hasn’t done it

What, didn’t you get the memo? China has decided to do it, so it is as good as done already?
Progressives can be deliberately stupid when they try to push a decision.

Hugs

I think Donald Trump should decide California stops using carbon by 2030 completely. Then he’d just fail that goal (as everybody does), and progressives would be so happy (because he did something).

MarkW

According to Griff, political announcements trump the laws of physics.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7

I can’t pass up the opportunity to quote from The Mikado:

Ko-Ko: (to Mikado) It’s like this: When your Majesty says, “Let a thing be done,” it’s as good as done — practically, it is done — because your Majesty’s will is law. Your Majesty says, “Kill a gentleman,” and a gentleman is told off to be killed. Consequently, that gentleman is as good as dead — practically, he is dead — and if he is dead, why not say so?
Mikado. I see. Nothing could possibly be more satisfactory!

Can he get as far as 5?

Personally I want fusion powered VTOL unicorns by 2030.
I’d accept a car, but I’d rather have a unicorn as long as it could keep up with a 1985 Porsche 928.

Louis Hooffstetter

Plus 100!

Steve Fraser

I’m looking forward to seeing the electric cop car and CHIPs motorcycles as they roll out.

noaaprogrammer

“DC motors have the nice feature that you can overdrive them (up to a factor of 10-to-1) for short periods of time. That is, a 20,000-watt motor will accept 100,000 watts for a short period of time and deliver 5 times its rated horsepower. This is great for short bursts of acceleration. The only limitation is heat build-up in the motor. Too much overdriving and the motor heats up to the point where it self-destructs.”
Without governors, high speed chases using EVs may end up in flames!

RobbertBobbert

Steve…the electric cop car and CHIPs motorcycles as they roll out…
How about the occasions when disasters occur, as in Florida or a major fire situation.
I just wanna see all the Electric emergency vehicles, police, ambulance and fire brigade dashing out to the rescue.
‘OOPS! We have run out of power and the closest refill place is 5 miles away! And even if we could get there it would take half an hour to sort it out! Cancel that emergency for the next 30 minutes please Sergeant’
And when the emergency is contained I look forward to all the ELECTRIC Trucks and Electric heavy duty vehicles needed to bring supplies and building repair materials to all the damaged places.
This would be viewed as a trivial matter by our Green DayDream Believers.
Saint Elon will fix any problems.

Griff

hover bikes for CHP would be so much cooler…

Electric vehicles in Puerto Rico would be highly useful right now.
How often does the power go out in California.

MarkW

Even if only done for short periods of time, the thermal stress will cause the motor to break down more quickly. Think of the windings heating up faster than the brackets holding them down.

Bryan A

Robbert
How about those Electric Powered C10 water/borate bombers hauling thousands of gallons of retardant

D. J. Hawkins

@MarkW
Electric motors have a listed service factor. Some I have seen are have factors as high as 2. This means they are designed to operate at twice their nameplate current draw continuously. There may be others out there with even higher service factors. The point is, even repeated operation outside the “normal” limits won’t necessarily cause premature failure. As doctors say, “It’s the dose that makes the poison.”

MarkW

It probably won’t cause immediate failure, but extra stress always reduces the service life.

Maybe California should ban humans from the state. Then, all the damage those nasty humans did to the state will eventually be overtaken by Mother Earth and vanish…

Lurking

No, because if you do, the moron infection would spread to other states.
Thankfully, California is an easier target for little Kim. Since they don’t want to be part of the US, no need to waste money on any sort of ABM system there.

rogerthesurf

Lurking,
Maybe but they all could be persuaded to go West. Like lemmings. 😉
Cheers
Roger
http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com
PS I think China is playing such places as California. They have no intention to ban internal combustion engines anyway. That’s why they will be rolling off their chairs when California takes this seriously.
https://www.economist.com/news/business/21728980-its-government-developing-plan-phase-out-vehicles-powered-fossil-fuels-china-moves

“if you do, the moron infection would spread to other states.”
Lurch, how do you think the infection got to California?
150 years ago California had a few natives and some Spanish settlers. If you’re confused about this, watch that Antonio Banderas movie, “The Legend of Zorro”. CA was a mostly Spanish colony before the gold rush.
It was the US Federal Government, under the direction of James Polk, who first imported (exported?) morons to California. It’s been getting worse ever since.

Dave Fair

The North American Continent tilts to the SW; everything loose rolls into CA.

That’s Jerry’s plan I think. Well, not really his, his handlers. Jerry doesn’t really make these policies I think, he’s what I’d call a figurehead. He stepped into his dad’s shoes and now he’s the puppet for unknown interests who have enough money to buy him, or at least “support him in the manner to which he’s become accustomed”. You’d need to talk with his agent to find out how much it might cost to change his position on killing everyone in California. Whatever happened to Linda Ronstadt anyway? I had hope for him back then. I still like her but I think it was one of those “who gets the friends” things and I lost out in the divorce. She doesn’t invite me to parties and I don’t even have her eMail address.
It’s odd he appears to be against exporting non-citizens from CA if the overall goal is to convert the state “back” to some idealized Eden like environment occupied by no more than two people. Would there be a male and female or would we prefer male/male or female/female? Choosing a same sex pair would certainly prevent future overpopulation wouldn’t it? One can only ponder why God didn’t think of that in the first place, instead of going the “original sin” route? Or we can follow the insights of Michael Crichton’s “Malcolm” character and have faith in the idea that “life finds a way”. Not “God” mind you; life. Who needs God when you have life? Or did I just write something so essentially stupid it might be considered insightful?
But I digress.

Fred Brohn

First imagine you’re an idiot. Then imagine you’re Jerry Brown. Ah, but I repeat myself.

John V. Wright

Sadly, Linda has dementia. Heard this about three years ago and have seen no news since. Tragic that this vibrant, talented and gorgeous woman should be struggling with this condition. A sad end to a life that brought terrific music to millions. I hope that she is receiving the very best of care and support.

John, none of us choose our ends and all of us meet them. I agree that’s a sad way for a personal icon and great artist to leave, but there isn’t a good way.
I’m sorry to see her leave but glad I lived in her time.

Fred I didn’t want to sound flippant, though I also didn’t want to sound insulting.
This may be more serious than you imagine. California is a pretty big economy, some recon it’s the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world all by itself, just behind Japan.
Jerry’s well and truly out of touch and in a state as populace and also as financially important as CA, he can’t afford the level of arrogance and shear stupidity he’s exhibiting unless he’s spoiling for a fight.
He might just be doing that though, which would be very bad for everyone involved.

Auto

Per the ever-editable Wikipedia, downloaded about 2210 Z 20170929: –
“In August 2013, she revealed to AARP that she has Parkinson’s disease, and “can no longer sing a note.” ”
Parkinson’s is not dementia. It is very unpleasant. I lost a neighbour to that a few years ago.
Auto

I was trying to remember when any country, or a state for that matter, commercialized an important product; OK, help commercialize any product.
California helped create a deregulated electricity market in the 2001, but rolling black outs and Ken Lay ended it.

MarkW

What CA did was not deregulation.
It was at best re-regulation. Replacing one set of regulations with another, even more complicated set of regulations.

Ben Gunn

Come on California politicians lets take one bridge too far.

MarkW

A bridge that hasn’t even been finished yet.

When you remove all of the thousands of words spooken and writton about climate change you arre left with just one thing, a gas CO2. Show that unlike the Greenies belief that CO2 retains heat, thus they say the more of it, then the world will get hotter. Instead prove that CO2 is not really a Greenhouse gas as per the phublics image of a convential greenhouse, but instead only absorbs energy and re- radiates it to other gases. There is only one true Greenhouse type substaance in the atmosphere, our old friend H2O, water or rather water vapour as in humjidty.
The whole climate chabge scam is a house of cards, so lets remove the card marked CO2.
Time that Trump used the facilities of the Govt. and publised the truth about CO2, you know like we all breath it out, so how can it possibly be a pololutant.
Michael.

Griff

The physics of the greenhouse effect are absolutely proven.
Feel free to try for the Nobel prize proving otherwise.

Paul Penrose

Wrong once again, Griff. CO2, unlike water vapor, is a non-condensing gas, so it can’t “trap heat” (latent energy) the way H2O can. The best that CO2 can do is to slightly slow down the radiation of a narrow band of IR from the surface into space. This has the effect of modestly raising the minimum night time temperature, which is beneficial, not catastrophic. Only the ignorant and the those that have a stake in the CAGW conjecture don’t understand this. So which are you?

The tropospheric hot spot says otherwise.

Nigel S

Why no Nobel Prize for the person who proved the physics ‘absolutely’?

Eliza

No one has even considered that emissions might actually be good for the environment, like volcanoes, Co2 is plant food as well as most emissions probably… A “clean” atmosphere could probably kill off all life on earth eventually.

markl

Another shoot, ready, aim from California.

I know that CA is not Florida or Texas, etc; but consider (we should talk about this) that all cars in Florida had to be electric when Irma came to town.
How would that 680 mile escape from Miami to Pensacola work out, in your new electric car – without any traffic jams or weather/debris slowing down the escape?
Note – it’s roughly 164 mi from Key West to Miami. Here’s the top ten:
Kia Soul EV – 93 mile range .
Nissan Leaf – 107 mi
BMW i3 – 114 mi
Ford Focus – 115 mi
Hyundai Ioniq – 124 mi
Volkswagen e-Golf – 125 mi
Chevy Bolt EV – 238 mi
Tesla X – 295 mi ($95,000)
Tesla Model S 85D – 335 mi ($92,500)
Imagine 10 – 20,000 cars stopping in Key Largo (97 mi) needing to recharge – with the Hurricane bearing down on them.

Clay Sanborn

Actually, this is quite doable if everyone has the right car: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/new-mercedes/3021121?snl=1 Batteries dead? Just pull over to the side of the road and replace them. 🙂

Oh, that’s too good. A perfect start to my day. Thanks.

Gunga Din

😎
If no one else put that up I was going too.
(I suppose Mercedes will be introducing a new model with trailer hitch so it could haul the replacement batteries with it in case of a “Climate Change” related evacuation. “The Mercedes AA+” class!)

Bryan A

Gary,
Easy enough, the storm took enough time to get there, everyone would just have to bug out a week in advance.
Day 1, go 150 miles, stop and recharge.
Day 2, lather, rinse, repeat
Day 3…
By day 6 you have reached the 750 mile safe zone, your house is looted of all your valuables, and the perp is long gone on their boat.

Joey

Or a big earthquake in California that takes down the power grid.

Griff

In which case solar PV, batteries and microgrids might well keep the power running.
As happened on some of the islands hit by recent hurricanes…

rbabcock

Griff.. “as happened on some islands…” Really? Ask every person on Tortola, St. John, St. Thomas, PR, Barbuda and Anquilla how they are enjoying life on their microgrids.

MarkW

Griffie poo, have you bothered to calculate the size of the PV array you would need to charge even one electric car? Much less dozens to hundreds?

Griff – find us a solar panel that survived Maria in Puerto Rico, would you. I’ve been in a cat 5 hurricane (dead center) – and there’s no way.
Wind turbines, anyone?

Nigel S

Not even on Branson’s island Griff, he’d probably busy digging up all the money he sheltered there from tax to buy a big diesel generator and a bunker to put it in.

Bryan A

Consider, to replace Diably Canyon Nuclear generation, you would need to place solar panels from the GG Bridge south to just north of San Jose covering every square inch of ground And that is if the solar array survived the storm itself. Haven’t seen a storm yet that damaged Diablo Canyon though Maria did obliterate Solar Farms in Puerto Rico as well.
To power NYC would take covering Kings, Queens, The Bronx, and half of Long Island in Solar Panels just to power that one small island. Population Density is another major factor.

Bryan A

IMHO
I believe that the only way to truly electrify transportation within the state would be to place 230KV lines in ducts beneth the road surface and power the vehicles through induction. No mileage limit, No refuel/recharge stops.

bitchilly

real comedy gold by griff with this comment.

D. J. Hawkins

So, Griff, got a link? Griff? Griff?

Yes. It just doesn’t pencil out does it? It’s not ideological. It’s not based on faith. It just doesn’t work.

EW3

You can tow a gasoline powered generator behind the EV. Just let it run non-stop as your driving. 😉
Sadly you’ll have to stop but not as often as with the generator.

Nigel S

These guys are way ahead of you.
http://www.eptender.com/

Nigel S

Paris to Berlin faster than a Tesla (although probably not as comfortable).
http://www.automobile-propre.com/road-trip-ep-tender-plus-rapide-tesla/

NoBS

This would make another block buster catastrophe movie but the Hollywood will not be making it. It would of course also work as an add for the superiority of combustion engine vehicles but we won’t see that one either, too non-PC for the current zeitgeist.

Latitude

gary, even better…how do they return….with no power lines
I suppose everyone could buy a generator that runs on gas……..

drednicolson

And because of the extra weight from hauling the generator, plus the extra Thermo2 middleman you’re paying the entropy tax to, you’d end up burning more gasoline to travel the same distance than you would with a traditional ICE vehicle. 😐

Eliza

As Einstein said re certainties said we don’t know if the universe is infinite but human stupidity is infinite

Yes, but Einstein was wrong about surprising number of things.

Scientists are more often wrong than right. Otherwise, there would be no need for experiments.

Paul Penrose

I’ve found that people that are really brilliant in one narrow area are usually pretty daft in most others. Einstein was a good example of that, even though his quote about human stupidity was spot on.

drednicolson

It’s the fox/hedgehog dynamic. The ideal “fox” (generalist) knows one aspect of everything. The ideal “hedgehog” (specialist) knows every aspect of one thing. As we learn and grow, we all fall somewhere in between on the scale. Einstein obviously leaned very strongly to the hedgehog side.

MarkW

The exact quote is more like this
There are two things that are infinite. The universe and human stupidity. And I’m not so sure about the universe.

John Haddock

We shouldn’t confuse goals and solutions. If zero or very low emissions vehicles are desirable, then clearly make that the goal. Electric vehicles are one answer but not the only one.
Didn’t Honda showcase a very low emissions gasoline engine some ten years ago?

Except in La La land, CO2 is an evil emission right up their with CO and NO2. Thus, even the super low emission gas engines sold now also traced back to CA rules, they are useless for this goal. No gasoline engine would work. Fuel Cell car, yes. That emits water. But anything at emits CO2 is not going to be acceptable. Who cares if CA imports electricity from another state burning coal or natural gas to generate the electricity.
It’ll be interesting to see how the UK and France accomplish this since they are ahead of CA on setting this type of mandate.
I think politicians are confusing mandates for invention of new technology. if they mandate it, no matter what it is, of course someone will invent it. Or, more likely, more business and peeps will leave La La land.

MarkW

The pollution in places like LA is not coming from the cars. It’s coming from the homes and factories.
Cars were cleaned up decades ago.
A few years back I read a report that claimed that cars in CA were so clean that the air exiting the car was cleaner than the air entering it.

TonyL

I’ve gotten messages from the governor asking, ‘Why haven’t we done something already?’” Nichols said, referring to China’s planned phase-out of fossil-fuel vehicle sales. “The governor has certainly indicated an interest in why China can do this and not California.

The Left in CA is absolutely enthralled with a totalitarian dictatorship which can do absolutely anything it wants. They desperately crave that power for themselves.

“The Left in CA is absolutely enthralled with a totalitarian dictatorship”
I believe that’s entirely true, but it isn’t the reason the Left has taken California.
The electoral process in CA is corrupt and it favors the ruling party. They can’t be voted out because they control who gets on the ballot. California is no longer a member of a democratic republic; it’s now a single party dictatorship not unlike N. Korea.
It’s ironic that Kim is aiming his missiles at his only compatriot.

birdynumnum

Shame they are going to need the petrochemical industry for some time yet unless all of these so called zero emission vehicles are going to have steel wheels.
From Wikipedia:
A synthetic rubber is any artificial elastomer. These are mainly polymers synthesized from petroleum byproducts. About 15 billion kilograms (5.3×1011 oz) of rubbers are produced annually, and of that amount two thirds are synthetic.[1] Global revenues generated with synthetic rubbers are likely to rise to approximately US$56 billion in 2020.[2] Synthetic rubber, like natural rubber, has uses in the automotive industry for tires, door and window profiles, hoses, belts, matting, and flooring.
So it looks like a fair bit of carbon black plus petroleum byproducts will be evenly distributed around the planet as all the tyres (tires) wear out.

tyres (tires)
+++++++++
🙂

No, they all will use natural rubber, so that Indonesia (and other countries) will need to cut all remaining tropical rainforests to provide the world with ti/yres…
Unfortunately, natural rubber wears out faster than most synthetic rubbers and can cause latex allergy from a natural protein in it…

Eustace Cranch

Does that mean used cars too? You’ll never be able to sell your ICE car? So what happens to those millions of cars already on the road?
These people are insane.

Eustace, it’s become important to not conflate “these people” with the so called leadership of California.
Californians don’t support this nonsense. We weren’t even asked.

Dave Fair

There will be a popular retribution.

Let’s both hope it’s peaceful retribution Dave. There’s an awful lot of money on the table and I’d be lying if I said that didn’t worry me. A lot. A whole lot.
I’m old. I don’t want to see this get out of hand. I had the idea I’d have a peaceful old age without having to blow the brains out of some obnoxious Marxist that wanted to eat my dog.
Just my own personal hopes and dreams.

Dave Fair

I meant retribution in the ballot box, Bartleby. Although leftists’ acceptance of Antifa is worrisome.

Eustace Cranch

Clarification: by “these people” I meant the political leadership (if you can call it that).

MarkW

Unfortunately a majority of the voters keep voting the same idiots back into office.

drednicolson

They call themselves Antifa(scist) yet their tactics come straight from the playbook of Mussolini’s Blackshirts. The irony seems obvious to everyone but them.

California has been taken by economic force. Make no mistake about that. You can do all the California bashing you want but nothing is going to change. The ports of Los Angeles and Oakland have been taken and that’s just the facts Jack.
You folks keep thinking TV. Why the heck not? Your entire country is being taken right in front of your eyes and all you can do is make snarky remarks about Californians and why you’d be better off without them.
Go ahead. Do that. Wait five years. Learn to speak foreign languages.

MarkW

30 years ago, they were saying the same thing about the Japanese.
Then it was Taiwan.
Then it was Korea.
Now it’s China.

Bob boder

I remember everyone panicking when the Japanese started buying up NY city. All i could think was that they were driving up the price of real estate and ultimately it would have to crash when they stopped buying, its not like they could pick the buildings up and move them to Japan. So in essence they were just sending their money to us for something that we would buy back later at a cheaper price when the market crashed. i was proven right in the end, everyone was afraid of the brilliant Japanese, so brilliant that gave us their money for nothing in return in the end.

Griff

so get out of ICE early.
and beachfront property.

MarkW

If your going to die anyway, why not avoid the rush and kill yourself early.
At 1 foot per century, that beachfront property is going to be there a lot longer than any of us.

Sean

What a great idea. Price the poor and working class out of the state and California might finally escape it’s dubious title as the state with the highest proportion of people in poverty or near poverty in the nation (almost 40%). They could gentrify the entire state.

MarkW

The poor aren’t going to leave because welfare is better in CA than almost anyplace else.
The people who are going to be squeezed out are the same ones who are already being squeezed out, the middle class.

Bob boder

Yep, even the rich in Kalifornia are on welfare, Elon Musk for one.

bitchilly

an apt comment bob, if only people realised that corporate welfare is several orders of magnitude greater than that going to the poorest that actually need it.

MarkW

That depends on how you define corporate welfare.
Most people who make such statements regard any tax deduction as welfare.

don rady

Then they will complain about income inequality.

China’s sudden surge in automobiles is choking its big cities in smog. Their move to electric vehicles in parallel with massive investments in power generation makes sense in that light because it moves the ff combustion out of the city. They also have a very aggressive program to expand nuclear power generation.

MarkW

The smog in the cities isn’t coming from cars.
It’s coming from industry and the use of coal for heating and cooking.

Bob boder

The chinese are nuts, their crash is coming and it is going to be Yuge.

Dave Fair

Bob is correct; the world will not allow China’s mercantilism misbehavior to continue indefinitely.

Walter Sobchak

I think it is a great idea. i think California should adopt all the eco-garbage it can think of. It will be truly amusing to see them come to Washington to beg for food because their 25% unemployment rate is causing mass starvation.

I got an acre of land. Very fertile Pleistocene lake bottom loam. I’ll have food.

The Reverend Badger

Ditto. + 16 acres woodland. Trees are NOT fossil fuel so I can burn them and be GREEN !!!

MarkW

Only if CA permits you to own a gun so that you can protect that food.

nn

Shifting the location of emission may make sense, especially in high density population centers.

MarkW

I’m green because I’m forcing someone else to live with the pollution that I’m creating.

drednicolson

The SimCity solution. Put all your industrial zoning and coal power plants on the edge of the map so half the pollution goes to your neighbors, who’re never going to complain about it.

I wonder what are the authorities are planning on doing if mum, dad and the kids travel over the border in their classic gas guzzling 67 Chevy on the way to enjoy a day at the beach.

The Reverend Badger

No beach. Sea level rise wiped it out.

Griff

no, no… the beach is still there… but it moved a long ways inland…

MarkW

At 1 foot per century, that beach isn’t going to be moving far or fast.

MarkW

They better bring enough gas cans to get the car back to the border. Won’t be any filling stations left in CA.

Alex

BYD make EVs in China. Asking them what the future of the ICE is like asking Tesla what the future of ICE would be.
In the NE of China the temperature goes below -20 C regularly. Some places are below -40C. On occasion, I have seen trucks pulled over to the side of a road with the driver building a fire under the sump of the truck.
99% of the people, in my city of 8 million, live in apartments. Overnight parking is in no parking areas and bike lanes. Over 90% of car owners do this
There are over 700 NEW car registrations every day.
I’m not saying it is impossible that new ICEs will be banned in China. I’m just thinking of the logistical infrastructure nightmare of charging points.

Dave Fair

Alex, please, don’t confuse the children with facts.

Griff

Well, note China just announced that it is requiring all auto manufacturers in China to produce at least 12% of output as EVs or low emissions vehicles…

MarkW

And if the people refuse to buy them, will just shoot a few of them to motivate the rest.

Don K

I have no idea what China will do, but my guess is that they might end up eventually banning (most) pure ICE vehicles, but allowing hybrids which seem a lot more appropriate to frigid interior areas than pure EVs. What will California do? God alone knows. But I have to point out that large areas of Eastern and far Northern California are VERY thinly populated and seem quite unsuited to pure EVs using current or near future technology

wouldrathernotsay

I think whenever someone generates this kind of insanity (or like the iron dusting the ocean article) we ought to ask, “When did you decide to hate all humans?” Because underneath it all, that’s what they are saying.

Joey

What China SAYS it’s going to do and what it really does are two different things entirely.

Clay Sanborn

Nothing works out as well as having gov’t dictate what the free market only should determine. What could go wrong? Ans: Everything.

Gary Pearse

So they don’t want visitors to drive there then? Theyre prepared to give up Twinkies, wheat, lumber, sugar, apples, steel,… This foolishness will end long before 2030 anyway.
Papers are coming out admitting temps have been over hyped in models. They say 3fold but that doesn’t include another fold or two added by rigging data. The greening of the planet is going to get too obvious to avoid updating the already startling rate that makes It the most exciting a CO2 story of them all . It is exponential and endothermic (hmmm… coincided with the Pause).

Fads typically last 10 years.

feliksch

In the 70’s they closed highways on sundays or let you drive only every other day. In the 80’s that was all a thing of the distant past.

EW3

Don’t forget all the CO2 created by aircraft traveling to/from CA.
And the USN will be disturbed a bit when they can’t use GAS to power their ships and aircraft,
Not to mention the USCG, USA and USMC.
No wonder businesses can’t wait to leave CA.

MarkW

Or the cargo ships that dock at one of CA’s ports.

EW3

MarkW – Shipping into CA is already dying.
With the widening of the Panama Canal, super size vessels can go to Texas and avoid the high costs of unloading in CA. Ports in Texas have been dredging and widening in anticipation of this already.

John F. Hultquist

If CA starts now to build a dozen or so nuclear stations the power to move an all electric fleet would be coming on-line about the time the number of EVs started to escalate.
Take the amount of gasoline and diesel now used and plan on replacing it. likewise with off-street parking and charging stations. I currently drive an auto that will go 500 miles on its tank of gasoline. EVs may get there in 10 years, about the time the first new nuclear power comes. I doubt there will be a lot of extra power from nearby states because OR and WA are likely to go the same route.
So CA, go for it.
[Full disclosure: a: I visited CA once; b; I won’t be there to see what happens.]

EV’s won’t get there in any years. We have mountains like the Sierras where EV’s will get dumped by the side of the road after 10 miles.

Gary Pearse

His hesitation on IC engines shows somebody in that government has done the math and doesn’t want to talk about it.

Dave Fair

The’re not stupid, the’re ideologues. We’re beginning to see the different revolutionary factions savaging each other. Always happens to true believers; orthodoxy must be enforced, even at the expense of the overall revolution.

michael hart

“Oh, Lord, make me pure. But not yet”….There have been previous Californian laws about zero-emission vehicles, which also foundered on the rocks of reality.
In any case, the real issue is about traffic congestion, not CO2 emissions.

David Oliver Smith

This is interesting. My final exam in Constitutional Law at Duke University School of Law in 1969 (yes, 47 years ago) had the question posed whether California could constitutionally ban gasoline powered vehicles. I’m pretty sure it would be a burden on interstate commerce and therefore unconstitutional under the US Constitution. In any case it wouldn’t apply to the federal government under the concept of federal preemption of state law.

David Oliver Smith

Well, actually 48, but whose counting?

Ridiculous

Certainly NOT the lawyers… They are NO COUNT.
Only advanced degree with absolutely NO math requirement !!!

Nigel S

Apart from working out the fees.

MarkW

That’s what secretaries are for.

Dave Fair

Federal vehicles are not registered in the various States.

Alan D McIntire

If such a ban DID go into effect, auto sales along the Oregon border, Nevada border, and Arizona border of California would jump drastically.
I saw something similar in British Columbia a little over 20 years ago. There were long lines of BC cars crossing the border into Washington to buy gasoline. It was cheaper to spend time driving across the border to buy gas than it was to pay the exorbitant B.C. gas tax.

Governor stupid at it again.

Living in an upper middle class urban area, I’m fascinated by how much SUV’s outnumber electric cars. The enviros have a big hill to climb to ban the combustion engine, from culture and from flat economics. Show us the way California. I will enjoy watching you try to make your poverty stricken state realize the dreams of the rich greens. At least weather is on your side.

We’ll just all buy stickers that says “EV” and put dummy batteries in our trunks, gas for “backup”.

The Reverend Badger

My ICE is already carbon NEGATIVE, it must be, I had to decoke the bores 3 years ago. Masses of carbon in it. , all buried it in the garden to be ecologically sound.

California has over 18,000 diesel busses who’s going to pay the $9B to replace them?

Griff

https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/07/31/electric-bus-makers-poised-for-an-l-a-gold-rush/
“L.A.’s transit agency, Metro, has a goal of converting its bus fleet to 100 percent electric by 2030. The agency says it will spend around $100 million a year in contracts.
There are at least 10 companies in Southern California making and selling battery electric buses. The biggest is the Chinese company BYD, which has a factory in Lancaster employing over 500 people, and Ebus in Downey. The Silicon Valley startup Proterra, with a new assembly plant in City of Industry, likens itself to the Tesla of electric buses.”

MarkW

In other words, they are going to increase taxes tremendously.
They are going to have to increase the size of the lot where they park those buses over night as they are going to have to buy a lot of extra buses so that they can have enough on the road, even when half of them are in the garage being charged.

paqyfelyc

lol. who ever pay for political lunacy ?
More debts.
BAU

Governor Brown has publicly admitted to ignorance of the scientific method of investigation On several occasions I have offered to tutor him in the scientific method at his office in Sacramento, free of charge. Thus far Brown has spurned my offer. Brown’s thinking about political issues seems to have been molded by his experience as a seminarian for the priesthood of the Catholic church. Rather than being trained in logic, seminarians are trained in the dogma of the Church.

NoBS

That’s interesting, I am only now beginning to notice how many of the leading and most feverous alarmists have a religious (and legal) background.

LdB

Are Cali considering banning internal combustion engines or only allowing registering electric cars. Those are very different things one excludes the possibility of alternatives to electric cars. My future fortune might depend on it, I am considering working on a large windup rubber band car for them. Imagine the pitch only human energy required to use and if you run flat in an emergency you just get out and wind it up.

You’re just winding us all up, aren’t you.
🙂

Earthling2

A real problem for the longer term future of California , and how this policy might be implemented is Lieutenant Governor Gavin Newsom. He will be be running for Governor when Moonbeam retires, and it may be that he is the brains behind this foolhardy legislation and is already the second most powerful politician in the state. Which means if he wins and becomes Governor then it will be be business as usual for how many more terms of leftist loony bin politics. Just look at his track record in San Francisco as mayor.
Of course, he is probably already the ‘brains’ behind much of the direction California has taken the last several years, and Californian politics is probably a lot more screwy than most other states or the federal government. This may just be the start of some very nasty leftist agenda, and if this ICE ban idea is implemented, then what else might he and his comrades want to implement. California is a very nice place to visit, but I don’t think I would want to live there. Especially in the future.

JBom

“Banning Engines” whether diesel or gasoline is just a proxy for killing humans, Governor Brown’s most favored group for killing. I would encourage Jerry Babe to just cut loose and declare the beautiful killing of Californians for the purpose of Saving The State Government. Then, Jerry Babe can tell us the income class of those to be killed. Should be great fun! Hahahahahahah

Patrick MJD

I discovered a Tesla dealership here in Sydney, Australia, while out for a walk one lunch time this week. I saw possibly 30, maybe more, Teslas of various models, some charging, most not. I guess it’s not easy where there is only 3 charging points. Quite a nice looking car inside and out and quite large, which surprised me. What was common about all of them was they were not on the roads being driven. Not a single one.

Archie

Here’s a quote from Live Science:
“Large wildfires in the western United States can pump as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere in just a few weeks as cars do in those areas in an entire year, a new study suggests. Oct 31, 2007”
Brown is a lunatic.

Jtom

Hmm. From the way this story reads, CA would only ban the SALES of ICE vehicles. They can’t simply ban ICEs without running into problems with federal laws, and driving (no pun intended) away millions in tourist dollars spent by car-travelling out-of-staters.
Anyone out there who is still relatively young should look into buying a car dealership in Nevada, close to the state line with CA. Also open up a business that sells private p.o. boxes, so car buyers can register their cars in Nevada. Business would be very, very good.
And the real losers would be the CA car dealerships, and the state and local governments (Nevada gets all the sales taxes!).
In all truth, the sane thing to do would be to first pass a law saying all state and local governments, and all who hold elected positions, must only use EVs, to show the public that it can be done. I suspect the experiment would end there (Governor, “What do you mean my car is being charged? I have to go to a fund raiser. Ride in the staff’s Prius? Are you nuts?).

MarkW

If they do succeed in making most of the cars in state electric, gas stations are going to start becoming few and far between.

They’re smoking too much CO2 over there.

Patrick MJD
The Reverend Badger

Will it be fused properly ? Or is that a fail-dangerous mode.

AndyG55

Where’s the San Andreas fault when you most need it !!!

MarkW

Still building up stress.

drednicolson

Probably waiting for when Moonbeam Brown’s toy train set is done, just in time to twist it in knots.

Gerry Cooper

We won’t need plug in charging stations per se. There will be a coil under the vehicle and everywhere you park will have similar embedded coils – doesn’t matter where you park the batteries will be charging – problem solved. (except possibly the cost and weight of putting copper coils everywhere but a minor detail)

Or run a wire mesh above the freeways and have the cars fitted with poles like dodgem cars.