From The National Post
China will also likely order an end to sales of all polluting vehicles by 2030, the chairman of electric-carmaker BYD Co. said Thursday
The internal combustion engine’s days may be numbered in California, where officials are mulling whether a ban on sales of polluting autos is needed to achieve long-term targets for cleaner air.
Governor Jerry Brown has expressed an interest in barring the sale of vehicles powered by internal-combustion engines, Mary Nichols, chairman of the California Air Resources Board, said in an interview Friday at Bloomberg headquarters in New York. The earliest such a ban is at least a decade away, she said.
Brown, one of the most outspoken elected official in the U.S. about the need for policies to combat climate change, would be replicating similar moves by China, France and the U.K.
“I’ve gotten messages from the governor asking, ‘Why haven’t we done something already?’” Nichols said, referring to China’s planned phase-out of fossil-fuel vehicle sales. “The governor has certainly indicated an interest in why China can do this and not California.”
Embracing such a policy would send shockwaves through the global car industry due to the heft of California’s auto market. More than 2 million new passenger vehicles were registered in the state last year, topping France, Italy or Spain. If a ban were implemented, automakers from General Motors Co. to Toyota Motor Corp. would be under new pressure to make electric vehicles the standard for personal transportation in the most populous U.S. state, casting fresh doubts on the future of gasoline- and diesel-powered autos elsewhere.
The Association of Global Automakers said consumers must be able to afford the cleaner cars that California says are needed to meet its climate goals. The trade association represents Toyota, Honda Motor Co. and other overseas carmakers in the U.S.
“We have been working with California on intelligent, market-based approaches to emissions reductions beyond 2025, and we hope that this doesn’t signal an abandonment of that position,” Global Automakers Chief Executive Officer John Bozzella said in a statement.
California has set a goal to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 80 per cent from 1990 levels by 2050. Rising emissions from on-road transportation has undercut the state’s efforts to reduce pollution, according to Next 10, San Francisco-based non-profit.
“To reach the ambitious levels of reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, we have to pretty much replace all combustion with some form of renewable energy by 2040 or 2050,” Nichols said. “We’re looking at that as a method of moving this discussion forward.”
California has the authority to write its own pollution rules, which dates back to the 1970 Clean Air Act. Those rules are underpinned by waivers granted by the Environmental Protection Agency.
Nichols said the state would likely take a different legal route to enable a possible ban rather than use an EPA waiver, since the Trump administration would be unlikely to approve one. For example, California could use vehicle registration rules or control the vehicles that can access state highways, she said.
Read the rest of the story here.
HT | Earthling2
Has anyone tried to figure out how many charging stations they would need…and how long it would take to install and get them up and running
And how much power the grid would have to be able t deliver to charge all these toys?
That’s the Achilles heel. They do not begin to understand that going all electric with cars means an even more robust power grid as the cars will need charging as needed. Going with green energy means they will pursue industrial-scale batteries, which will easily quadruple the cost of wind and solar. Then, we have the already aging wind and solar that are beginning to need to be replaced. About eight years ago there were some 15000 dead turbines in the US, many more by now, and more to come.
Part of Puerto Rico’s power problems at the moment are not just that the power grid is broken, but the wind and solar installations are destroyed and will take years to repair. A few floating nuclear power plants form the Navy and some diesel generators and they will be back on line. It just takes time to ship all the heavy equipment to an island. Those who are complaining of the government response are just trouble makers taking advantage of the situation.
And how long to fill up 15million cars? I hope there is no need for emergency evacuations.
The grid supply would effectively need to triple to allow for both charging cars and quick charging station back-up batteries. Also to maintain the charge of the battery back-ups that homes would need to have.
As far as charging stations go, they would easily need as many quick chargers as current gas pumps as well as a charging station at every house for every auto. They need to be able to recharge in 10 minutes at stations without compromising the car battery life or integrity.
Here’s a video showing some of that damaged wind/solar infrastructure in PR. It’s hard to tell how much damage there is to the solar facility.
higley – those ‘dead turbines’ were small multiple towered 1980s designs – nothing like modern turbines.
The worlds first dismantling of an offshore wind farm after its expected 25 year lifespan took place successfully this year
And how the massive amount of electrical energy would be generated without using fossil fuels?
What happens when there is the usual traffic jam … how many batteries will run out in situ?
Meanwhile, Griff, small 1980s-era coal and gas plants are still running as they have for decades, while weathering just about every kind of weather you can throw at them. Sure, they don’t work offshore… there’s no rational way to end that sentence.
Even off-shore wind produces a fraction of the power necessary to sustain a first-world industrial or post-industrial economy. There simply isn’t enough energy available, even assuming 100% extraction efficiency.
I did some research for my own edification a few weeks ago on this topic. The figures below are for the entire USA, not for California, but I think you’ll get the idea. I’m not a scientist so feel free to correct me, but I’ll post the links to where I obtained my data.
So, currently, we drive 3.22 trillion miles per year in the US.
The average fuel consumption is 24.8 miles per gallon.
1 GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent) = 33.4 kWh
3.22 trillion divided by 24.8 then multiplied by 33.4 is “approximately” (did it in my head, even if my calculator did go that high I don’t know how many zeroes are in 1 trillion),
Answer: 4 Trillion kwh
Which, coincidentally, is the current annual utility-scale production of electricity in the US.
Let’s be nice and assume a better mpg average of double what the internal combustion engines are getting. An equivalent of 50mpg. That would halve the 4 Trillion kwh number. I haven’t looked into transmission loss, but there would be some for sure. I’d also assume that the national grid would have to be beefed up to carry the extra load.
So let’s put the number at somewhere north of an extra 2 Trillion kwh per year if all IC engines disappeared overnight.
Sites I got data from:
https://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/
(over 120 cool graph and charts)
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427
(Energy data)
https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity1 were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States.2 About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016
Moonbrown should start the ball rolling by declaring that as of Oct. 1 2017, no Ca. State agency will be allowed to purchase or use in any State function any vehicle of any kind that is not powered by electric batteries. And all existing State owned internal combustion engine vehicles must be scrapped by Oct 31 2017, and may not be sold as functioning vehicles.
Problem solved.
G
Referring to that video of the Puerto Rico wind turbines, didn’t anyone think that putting these machines in a hurricane prone area was going to be a ‘disaster waiting to happen’ ?
Philip T.
3.22 trillion miles times the average 0.35 KWh/mile ( small- mid sized automobile on 30 % small hills and 70% flat, in stable moderate (70’s deg F) ambient temperature, at half highway, half urban speeds) is 1,127,000,000 KWh (1.13 Trillion KWh) for the US. Of course both lower and higher temperatures will reduce the power output of the lithium batteries, even causing some to catch fire and explode in summertime desert conditions. As well the energy demands for trucking will make automobile use pale tin comparison.
Certainly grid power generation and distribution will be an issue especially if these cars are being charged at night when most renewables power sources are at minimal production (California Governor Brown has also set a state goal of 100% renewable power generation by 2030.)
Power generation and distribution will be insurmountable, but the real limiting factor will be the available source of lithium for the batteries and production of the batteries to provide automobiles, trucking, and a stable renewable power generation grid. Given that China is making a push for Lithium battery dependent transportation as well, the supplies of available lithium will dwindle and cost of lithium batteries will skyrocket as the limited supply will stimulate extreme demand.
Given the dedication of “Moonbeam” Brown to drive California into energy bankruptcy, there is opportunity for the wise investor in Lithium mining operations, suppliers, battery manufacturers, battery research (Tesla’s batteries are still too low a power density, and too low a production scale to provide the necessary solution.) Also fossil fuel (NG) power generation facilities in the states that surround California will be have high demand, as they will be providing the majority of California’s power even before but defiantly after 2030.
I just pray that some stupid nation, state or politician implements a on the ban sales of internal combustion engine vehicles by 2027.
That will give sufficient time to demonstrate the lunacy of it well before the UK’s own proposed ban due for 2040.
Maybe California needs to go through the very painful learning curve that a ban like this would mean; it might bring a touch of reality to their green fantasies ……..
Delusional psychosis runs in fads.
Brown and his eco-nut cronies will run into the wrath of car-addicted Californians. Libs always push too hard and eventually get a backlash from regular folks. Some places, like CA, it just takes a little longer.
No, California would have too much knock on effect. You don’t use a fully laden school bus as a crash test vehicle.
Maybe South Australia would like to be the crash test dummy again. They are suitably committed to “saving the planet”.
It would certainly curtail any interstate transport of goods that required trucks to stop in California to refuel.
Please not California I live there. How about South Australia? They seem more willing to be the crash test dummies. And I’ll wager they have far fewer cars to replace.
The sad part about CA is that there is good portion of the populace who cannot even afford to maintain well understood inexpensive automobile technology. Who do the politicians expect will be paying to maintain these new computerized electric vehicles?
the sooner the better. long ago i came to the conclusion that the large amount of psychedelic drugs consumed over generations by many californians and those attracted by the hippy culture to the place have created severe mental defects in a large part of the population.
slowing down the spread of these mentally deficient mutants by removing easy transport would be a good thing. why so many apparently decent people want to live among the above mentioned fools i do not know.
Well it’s almost October already, and I still see State owned air polluting vehicles out on the roads in Sunnyvale. I guess Emperor JB isn’t really serious after all.
G
Greens don’t learn. They just say we didn’t go far enough with socialism and green energy. They will never admit they were wrong, just put the blame on someone or something else.
With Agenda 21/2030/Smart growth etc.. we are like people in Communist Soviet going to be stuck in our towns walking or bicycling. The road back to serfdom?
Baby! Haven’t you learned that all alt-Left (socialists) 5-year plans unfold exactly as specified.
Pray do tell me What is going to replace the Hundreds of Billions in gas taxes ??????
My stamps collections are full of 5- or 10-year plans from the time of the Eastern bloc. The bankruptcy of the entire Eastern bloc did not take five years, but this was also foreseen. It will be the same in California. Introduction of a technology “by state” is doomed. And how does California intend to prevent the entry of petrol or diesel cars from other parts of the USA? I always thought there was full mutual freedom in the US? Can this be a state leverage? I think no – blocking highways for certain car types or non-approval of certain car types? Then a new classification of CO2 as a pollutant would be necessary, which would probably be obsolete by Trumps EPA conversion. And this is also the case in the foreseen proceedings before the United States Supreme Court, because there is not only freedom of speech but also freedom of travel and freedom of establishment in the United States. Nothing but propaganda to contradict Trump. This is what the Americans have known since Trump was elected. I would be quite relaxed.
has anyone worked out how few people will live in CA actually if this came to pass.
It’s already the law in California that you can’t legally drive a vehicle here (cept as a short time visitor) (tourist) that does not conform to CA air pollution standards, which are stricter than Federal.
G
Read up on the Cloward-Piven Strategy.
This is right out of their playbook.
I have done some figuring out for my very local area. 21 houses, rural hamlet, UK. Cost to upgrade 11kV transformer & LV (240V) distribution to 21 properties to go all electric for cars c. £400,000 . That is just the electricity supply company work, excludes work in individual house to add charging points of 10kW capacity per car. More if electric heating added (everyone here currently oil or LPG central heating – no gas mains).
solar power plus batteries would cover most of it… ground sourced heat pumps need little power.
Max 10K for panels/batteries per house, cost falling.
Ground sourced heat pumps need little power?
Griff is as delusional as ever.
Ground sourced heat pumps are more efficient than regular heat pumps, provided they are properly constructed and your yard has sufficient room to support one. However they are still the biggest power draw in your average house.
Griff, heat pumps and electrical heating in general are only effective if you have a very well isolated house, which most old houses in the country aren’t. Moreover, your solar panels only show 10% of the summer capacity in mid-winter, besides some “small” disturbances like 20 cm (or more) of snow on them… Thus anyway, you need the backup of the grid and regional/national storage in any form, as solar may be of help during the day, but most cars are at the work centers, where they need the load, together with all the computers, machinery,…
The local grid is designed for about 1.5 kW per every household simultaneous used. If 1 in 4 houses has 6 kW peak solar panels on its roof, that works fine. If every household has 6 kW peak solar panels you need to quadruple the capacity of the local distribution network, as there is little household use during a working day and the cars are at the working place and the household batteries get full. That is where Germany is running into problems by now…
Until the inverter catches fire and burns the house down as recently happened to the elderly parent of a neighbour who had just finished a major home refurbishment.
Sorry Griff,
Just ran the numbers last week (again). My house was priced out 5 years ago at $80,000 for a system that could supply my daily need. In deed the cost of solar panels has come down but the vast majority was for Support as they can’t go on my roof and I have very little yard space so an awning structure with concrete footings would be needed. The current price of solar panels places the cost for me at $72,000 today. The reduction in panels will save me $8,000 today over 5 years ago. Unfortunately it would still take me 32 years of usage to break even on the initial expenditure. Since I am 54 I would break even when I am 86 but then need to replace aging panels again and wouldn’t see Break-even until I die.
Bryan A,
Its even worse. The typical solar panel only has a 20 year life span…in outer space! But, stuck on Earth exposure to weather and detritus take their toll as well. With a 32 year payback, you’d still be owing for these things while they’d be as useful as shingles. BTW the inverters don’t last as long as the panels.
Griff, how do you use ground sourced heat pumps to charge an electric car?
“solar power plus batteries would cover most of it… “
Rubbish.
revd. badger – there are 10kw electric showers in use already. average UK mileage for private cars is 21 i.e. 5-7 Kw hours. you could do that overnight from an ordinary 3 pin plug several times over
“there are 10kw electric showers in use already. average UK mileage for private cars is 21 i.e. 5-7 Kw hours.”
Assuming the average car travels three miles per day.
A statistic about as useful as the one that says the average family has 2.4 children.
and a few electric vehicles with flat batteries on freeways OMG
With ICE vehicles, a kind Samaritan with a 1 gallon gas can, and those cars are back on the road. Electric, not so much.
It’s a good marketing idea though and you could probably sell a million of them – a Jerrycan shaped battery. They’ll sell in California even though they’ll never get used.
You don’t really think they take things like that into account, do you?
Ok. But no using electricity generated from fossil fuels to make this happen. Exporting your emissions doesn’t get you any points.
Hydro-electric and nuclear are also on the do not generate electricity.
And where exactly does the electricity come from?
The same place the money comes from for all other socialist nonsense: Fantasyland
Rainbows, fairy dust, & unicorn farts.
No problem. We put solar panels and a wind turbine on top of the cars. During the day, some of the electricity goes to charge the battery. This will be used when the car runs at night. Of course, the wind of the car’s passage will turn the turbine and generate more electricity. ingenious, eh?
Send me lots of money so that I can develop this concept and iron out a few kinks.
And you could point the headlights at the solar panels to go even faster.
Squiggy9000,
I’m sure there’s a seat on Moonbeam’s advisory panel you’d fill nicely. 😉
California should also ban the use of water, the mother of all greenhouse pollutants.
To Ballbounces, I heard that the rural areas of California are working on succeeding from the socialists…has anyone kept up with that? Part of the reason is California’s massive draining of water from the farmers. And this insane edict from on high may well hasten things along.
Also China is building hundreds if not thousands more coal fired power stations, as is Germany, France, Japan etc. But not Australia, so watch what happens here over the next couple of years, in Australia we are about to wind up in the dark and without power in summer due to the Globalist dream and zero consultation or consideration of their voters!!
I hope they are successful in seceding.
It will be interesting to see what CA does when it becomes more widely known that CO2 is not pollution and has no significant effect on climate.
Stick their collective fingers in their ears and shout: “WE CAN’T HEAR YOU!!! LALALALALALALALA!”
And adding a charging station to a single-family residence would cost thousands of dollars, and might not be possible or even more expensive in areas with underground electric distribution. A minimum of 100 amps more service per residence, which would probably also require new mains, which if underground, would be more expense.
Adding service to apartments would be even more of a clusterobscenity, even if there were enough parking places.
Tesla has a 100 kwh battery. link
Even a slow charge over 10 hours would require 10 kw. The code where I live says that the continuous load on a 15 amp breaker is 1200 watts. So, charging the Tesla would take the equivalent of 8 fifteen amp breakers. It would probably be two 60 amp breakers.
My electric clothes dryer runs off two 30 amp breakers. A 60 amp 220 volt circuit doesn’t seem too crazy.
On the other hand, if I want to charge my hypothetical Tesla in one hour … they’re going to have to run some new wires into my whole new electric panel. Not only that but something tells me that the neighbours are going to notice when I plug the Tesla in. 🙂
My neighbours are pretty competitive. If I get a Tesla, they will all get Teslas. If they all decide to do a one hour charge at the same time, it’s pretty much going to melt the wires. The electric company is going to need a new substation.
Invest in copper futures. The massive profit will offset the 1000% increase in the night tariff.
CommieBob. I expect you know that watts is Volts x Amps so 60 Amps at 220 volts is a bit over 13 Kw which would charge a 300 mile range car from empty in 7 – 8 hours. Your side of the pond average miles per day is around 30 so on average charge requirements would be 7-10 kW-hrs which would be like leaving your dryer on for :30 – :45 minutes
The code won’t let you continuously load a breaker to its tripping point. Off the top of my head, the limit would be 1200 watts on a 15 amp breaker. That extrapolates to 4800 watts on a 60 amp breaker on 120 volts and 9600 watts on two 60 amp breakers on a 220 volt circuit. I rounded to 10 kw for ease of arithmetic.
If you add up the ampacity of all the circuit breakers in the box, you come up with a number that is several times that of the main breaker. You’re allowed to assume that the home owner isn’t going to load every circuit to maximum at the same time. If that happens, that’s what the main breaker is for.
The electrical utility isn’t protected the same way. It is quite possible for fault conditions to cause equipment to explode. The possibility, that all the Tesla owners in a neighbourhood would fast charge their vehicles at the same time, exists and would probably cause problems for the utility. You could probably calculate the probability of a circuit being overloaded and choose how often you are willing to let that happen. If you’re designing a telephone system the calculation is straightforward. I don’t know if they have an equivalent for power systems.
Most chargers are only about 95% efficient. So the power draw will be closer to 10.5Kw.
Fast charge would be even less efficient because of the greater current draw.
How many households in California have only 1 car? Figure a family of four with driving age children and now you have at minimum 4 vehicles that would need a daily charge.
They may not need a full charge everyday but it is reasonable that on any given day all 4 would need a full charge, and probably overnight.
4 x 10Kw = 40 Kwh for up to 10 hours. Assuming a 220 circuit for each and you have (10,000/220)~45 Amps x 4 = 180 Amp continuous load.
Add in TV, fridge, lights, stereo, water heater, clothes dryer, stove, etc., and you’re well over 200 Amps. Most residential panels are rated for 200 Amps with a 150 Amp main breaker.
Lots of gotcha costs not being considered.
A thought experiment: Where people primarily park in the streets, can you imagine the vandalism on those hundreds of thousands charging stations? And lets not forget the massive investments in such charging stations, along with their related electrical generation, transmission and distribution systems.
It’s the charging leads that are going to get stolen first. The charging stations themselves will be pretty robust but covered in graffiti, chewing gum and smelling of piss. Though there might be useful night time industry in breaking them open and stealing copper, even a couple of feet of thick wiring is worth stealing. They nick the odd yard of earth tape from substations and cell towers these days.
As a past engineering manager and CEO of power companies, Rev, we took steps to counter inventive copper thieves: Energize the conductors terminating on newly constructed poles/towers and burying underground cables daily during construction, among other anti-theft measures.
Dispersed, local electrical charging infrastructure will not fare well.
Pissing on charging stations might produce unwelcome surprises.
The locals even stole the cables to the lifting bridge over The Swale!
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/sheppey-railway-cable-crooks-jailed-for-20-months-1-1392535?usurv=skip
This is another issue with EV’s: most people currently driving the least efficient and most polluting IC vehicles live in apartments which often don’t have covered parking. In some older urban neighborhoods apartment dwellers must use on-street parking, so access to charging stations is a major blocker. And the issue of electrical capacity upgrades hits higher-density housing more so than single-family residences.
No one should attach too much credibility to whatever China says it’s “going to do”. It was supposed to have reduced its emissions; yet it admitted a few years ago that it has under-reported them by 17%. It’s supposed to halt them by 2030, but it still is building coal plants at a steady pace besides financing new ones in Africa, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Vietnam. And even if it does halt them, there’s no guarantee it will reverse them in the years following. So when it claims in 2017 it will stop the sale of gasoline-powered vehicles 13 years later, we’d be wise to take a wait-and-see attitude. As for California, it seems that consumer opinion may determine exactly what actions the government takes and how fast. For one, unless the price of electrics becomes more affordable without subsidies, people will continue to steer clear of them.
It isn’t building coal plants at a steady rate.
See IEA link in Charles’ article here recently on China
Certainly they are…All over the world.
Because of (BOO) Builder Owner Operator rules China is building numerous coal powered facilities around the globe. That way China will not only charge the countries for the cost of buillding the facility but also for the energy they produce as Owner Operator.
Another flat out lie Skanky you patronising little twerp, as can be very easily demonstrated by a quick check round the Internet.
Why do you seem to believe that the readers of this blog are so stupid that they will fall for your repeated outpourings of mendacious rubbish?
Have you apologised for slandering Dr. Crockford yet?
“The governor has certainly indicated an interest in why China can do this and not California.”
Well, the answer to that Jerry is simply that China hasn’t done it. You can’t do it because China hasn’t. No one has. It pretty much can’t be done, but that’s an engineering problem Jerry. You need to be able to count past 20 to understand.
Even if China were able to rigorously enforce such a ban, it would only be because it in fact ticks all the boxes defining it as a fully fledged, sophisticated high tech fascist state – the first such the world has actually witnessed.
California talks a lot about grandiose green plans but I somehow doubt that as long as it has a modicum of a democratic system, anyone – even a Moonbeam squared- would get away with an outright state enforced ban. If I’m wrong, it’s in far worse shape than I imagined.
What, didn’t you get the memo? China has decided to do it, so it is as good as done already?
Progressives can be deliberately stupid when they try to push a decision.
I think Donald Trump should decide California stops using carbon by 2030 completely. Then he’d just fail that goal (as everybody does), and progressives would be so happy (because he did something).
According to Griff, political announcements trump the laws of physics.
I can’t pass up the opportunity to quote from The Mikado:
Can he get as far as 5?
Personally I want fusion powered VTOL unicorns by 2030.
I’d accept a car, but I’d rather have a unicorn as long as it could keep up with a 1985 Porsche 928.
Plus 100!
I’m looking forward to seeing the electric cop car and CHIPs motorcycles as they roll out.
“DC motors have the nice feature that you can overdrive them (up to a factor of 10-to-1) for short periods of time. That is, a 20,000-watt motor will accept 100,000 watts for a short period of time and deliver 5 times its rated horsepower. This is great for short bursts of acceleration. The only limitation is heat build-up in the motor. Too much overdriving and the motor heats up to the point where it self-destructs.”
Without governors, high speed chases using EVs may end up in flames!
Steve…the electric cop car and CHIPs motorcycles as they roll out…
How about the occasions when disasters occur, as in Florida or a major fire situation.
I just wanna see all the Electric emergency vehicles, police, ambulance and fire brigade dashing out to the rescue.
‘OOPS! We have run out of power and the closest refill place is 5 miles away! And even if we could get there it would take half an hour to sort it out! Cancel that emergency for the next 30 minutes please Sergeant’
And when the emergency is contained I look forward to all the ELECTRIC Trucks and Electric heavy duty vehicles needed to bring supplies and building repair materials to all the damaged places.
This would be viewed as a trivial matter by our Green DayDream Believers.
Saint Elon will fix any problems.
hover bikes for CHP would be so much cooler…
Electric vehicles in Puerto Rico would be highly useful right now.
How often does the power go out in California.
Even if only done for short periods of time, the thermal stress will cause the motor to break down more quickly. Think of the windings heating up faster than the brackets holding them down.
Robbert
How about those Electric Powered C10 water/borate bombers hauling thousands of gallons of retardant
@MarkW
Electric motors have a listed service factor. Some I have seen are have factors as high as 2. This means they are designed to operate at twice their nameplate current draw continuously. There may be others out there with even higher service factors. The point is, even repeated operation outside the “normal” limits won’t necessarily cause premature failure. As doctors say, “It’s the dose that makes the poison.”
It probably won’t cause immediate failure, but extra stress always reduces the service life.
Maybe California should ban humans from the state. Then, all the damage those nasty humans did to the state will eventually be overtaken by Mother Earth and vanish…
No, because if you do, the moron infection would spread to other states.
Thankfully, California is an easier target for little Kim. Since they don’t want to be part of the US, no need to waste money on any sort of ABM system there.
Lurking,
Maybe but they all could be persuaded to go West. Like lemmings. 😉
Cheers
Roger
http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com
PS I think China is playing such places as California. They have no intention to ban internal combustion engines anyway. That’s why they will be rolling off their chairs when California takes this seriously.
https://www.economist.com/news/business/21728980-its-government-developing-plan-phase-out-vehicles-powered-fossil-fuels-china-moves
“if you do, the moron infection would spread to other states.”
Lurch, how do you think the infection got to California?
150 years ago California had a few natives and some Spanish settlers. If you’re confused about this, watch that Antonio Banderas movie, “The Legend of Zorro”. CA was a mostly Spanish colony before the gold rush.
It was the US Federal Government, under the direction of James Polk, who first imported (exported?) morons to California. It’s been getting worse ever since.
The North American Continent tilts to the SW; everything loose rolls into CA.
That’s Jerry’s plan I think. Well, not really his, his handlers. Jerry doesn’t really make these policies I think, he’s what I’d call a figurehead. He stepped into his dad’s shoes and now he’s the puppet for unknown interests who have enough money to buy him, or at least “support him in the manner to which he’s become accustomed”. You’d need to talk with his agent to find out how much it might cost to change his position on killing everyone in California. Whatever happened to Linda Ronstadt anyway? I had hope for him back then. I still like her but I think it was one of those “who gets the friends” things and I lost out in the divorce. She doesn’t invite me to parties and I don’t even have her eMail address.
It’s odd he appears to be against exporting non-citizens from CA if the overall goal is to convert the state “back” to some idealized Eden like environment occupied by no more than two people. Would there be a male and female or would we prefer male/male or female/female? Choosing a same sex pair would certainly prevent future overpopulation wouldn’t it? One can only ponder why God didn’t think of that in the first place, instead of going the “original sin” route? Or we can follow the insights of Michael Crichton’s “Malcolm” character and have faith in the idea that “life finds a way”. Not “God” mind you; life. Who needs God when you have life? Or did I just write something so essentially stupid it might be considered insightful?
But I digress.
First imagine you’re an idiot. Then imagine you’re Jerry Brown. Ah, but I repeat myself.
Sadly, Linda has dementia. Heard this about three years ago and have seen no news since. Tragic that this vibrant, talented and gorgeous woman should be struggling with this condition. A sad end to a life that brought terrific music to millions. I hope that she is receiving the very best of care and support.
John, none of us choose our ends and all of us meet them. I agree that’s a sad way for a personal icon and great artist to leave, but there isn’t a good way.
I’m sorry to see her leave but glad I lived in her time.
Fred I didn’t want to sound flippant, though I also didn’t want to sound insulting.
This may be more serious than you imagine. California is a pretty big economy, some recon it’s the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world all by itself, just behind Japan.
Jerry’s well and truly out of touch and in a state as populace and also as financially important as CA, he can’t afford the level of arrogance and shear stupidity he’s exhibiting unless he’s spoiling for a fight.
He might just be doing that though, which would be very bad for everyone involved.
Per the ever-editable Wikipedia, downloaded about 2210 Z 20170929: –
“In August 2013, she revealed to AARP that she has Parkinson’s disease, and “can no longer sing a note.” ”
Parkinson’s is not dementia. It is very unpleasant. I lost a neighbour to that a few years ago.
Auto
I was trying to remember when any country, or a state for that matter, commercialized an important product; OK, help commercialize any product.
California helped create a deregulated electricity market in the 2001, but rolling black outs and Ken Lay ended it.
What CA did was not deregulation.
It was at best re-regulation. Replacing one set of regulations with another, even more complicated set of regulations.
Come on California politicians lets take one bridge too far.
A bridge that hasn’t even been finished yet.
When you remove all of the thousands of words spooken and writton about climate change you arre left with just one thing, a gas CO2. Show that unlike the Greenies belief that CO2 retains heat, thus they say the more of it, then the world will get hotter. Instead prove that CO2 is not really a Greenhouse gas as per the phublics image of a convential greenhouse, but instead only absorbs energy and re- radiates it to other gases. There is only one true Greenhouse type substaance in the atmosphere, our old friend H2O, water or rather water vapour as in humjidty.
The whole climate chabge scam is a house of cards, so lets remove the card marked CO2.
Time that Trump used the facilities of the Govt. and publised the truth about CO2, you know like we all breath it out, so how can it possibly be a pololutant.
Michael.
The physics of the greenhouse effect are absolutely proven.
Feel free to try for the Nobel prize proving otherwise.
Wrong once again, Griff. CO2, unlike water vapor, is a non-condensing gas, so it can’t “trap heat” (latent energy) the way H2O can. The best that CO2 can do is to slightly slow down the radiation of a narrow band of IR from the surface into space. This has the effect of modestly raising the minimum night time temperature, which is beneficial, not catastrophic. Only the ignorant and the those that have a stake in the CAGW conjecture don’t understand this. So which are you?
The tropospheric hot spot says otherwise.
Why no Nobel Prize for the person who proved the physics ‘absolutely’?
No one has even considered that emissions might actually be good for the environment, like volcanoes, Co2 is plant food as well as most emissions probably… A “clean” atmosphere could probably kill off all life on earth eventually.
Another shoot, ready, aim from California.
I know that CA is not Florida or Texas, etc; but consider (we should talk about this) that all cars in Florida had to be electric when Irma came to town.
How would that 680 mile escape from Miami to Pensacola work out, in your new electric car – without any traffic jams or weather/debris slowing down the escape?
Note – it’s roughly 164 mi from Key West to Miami. Here’s the top ten:
Kia Soul EV – 93 mile range .
Nissan Leaf – 107 mi
BMW i3 – 114 mi
Ford Focus – 115 mi
Hyundai Ioniq – 124 mi
Volkswagen e-Golf – 125 mi
Chevy Bolt EV – 238 mi
Tesla X – 295 mi ($95,000)
Tesla Model S 85D – 335 mi ($92,500)
Imagine 10 – 20,000 cars stopping in Key Largo (97 mi) needing to recharge – with the Hurricane bearing down on them.
Actually, this is quite doable if everyone has the right car: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/new-mercedes/3021121?snl=1 Batteries dead? Just pull over to the side of the road and replace them. 🙂
Oh, that’s too good. A perfect start to my day. Thanks.
😎
If no one else put that up I was going too.
(I suppose Mercedes will be introducing a new model with trailer hitch so it could haul the replacement batteries with it in case of a “Climate Change” related evacuation. “The Mercedes AA+” class!)
Gary,
Easy enough, the storm took enough time to get there, everyone would just have to bug out a week in advance.
Day 1, go 150 miles, stop and recharge.
Day 2, lather, rinse, repeat
Day 3…
By day 6 you have reached the 750 mile safe zone, your house is looted of all your valuables, and the perp is long gone on their boat.
Or a big earthquake in California that takes down the power grid.
In which case solar PV, batteries and microgrids might well keep the power running.
As happened on some of the islands hit by recent hurricanes…
Griff.. “as happened on some islands…” Really? Ask every person on Tortola, St. John, St. Thomas, PR, Barbuda and Anquilla how they are enjoying life on their microgrids.
Griffie poo, have you bothered to calculate the size of the PV array you would need to charge even one electric car? Much less dozens to hundreds?
Griff – find us a solar panel that survived Maria in Puerto Rico, would you. I’ve been in a cat 5 hurricane (dead center) – and there’s no way.
Wind turbines, anyone?
Not even on Branson’s island Griff, he’d probably busy digging up all the money he sheltered there from tax to buy a big diesel generator and a bunker to put it in.
Consider, to replace Diably Canyon Nuclear generation, you would need to place solar panels from the GG Bridge south to just north of San Jose covering every square inch of ground And that is if the solar array survived the storm itself. Haven’t seen a storm yet that damaged Diablo Canyon though Maria did obliterate Solar Farms in Puerto Rico as well.
To power NYC would take covering Kings, Queens, The Bronx, and half of Long Island in Solar Panels just to power that one small island. Population Density is another major factor.
IMHO
I believe that the only way to truly electrify transportation within the state would be to place 230KV lines in ducts beneth the road surface and power the vehicles through induction. No mileage limit, No refuel/recharge stops.
real comedy gold by griff with this comment.
So, Griff, got a link? Griff? Griff?
Yes. It just doesn’t pencil out does it? It’s not ideological. It’s not based on faith. It just doesn’t work.
You can tow a gasoline powered generator behind the EV. Just let it run non-stop as your driving. 😉
Sadly you’ll have to stop but not as often as with the generator.
These guys are way ahead of you.
http://www.eptender.com/
Paris to Berlin faster than a Tesla (although probably not as comfortable).
http://www.automobile-propre.com/road-trip-ep-tender-plus-rapide-tesla/
This would make another block buster catastrophe movie but the Hollywood will not be making it. It would of course also work as an add for the superiority of combustion engine vehicles but we won’t see that one either, too non-PC for the current zeitgeist.
gary, even better…how do they return….with no power lines
I suppose everyone could buy a generator that runs on gas……..
And because of the extra weight from hauling the generator, plus the extra Thermo2 middleman you’re paying the entropy tax to, you’d end up burning more gasoline to travel the same distance than you would with a traditional ICE vehicle. 😐
As Einstein said re certainties said we don’t know if the universe is infinite but human stupidity is infinite
Yes, but Einstein was wrong about surprising number of things.
Scientists are more often wrong than right. Otherwise, there would be no need for experiments.
I’ve found that people that are really brilliant in one narrow area are usually pretty daft in most others. Einstein was a good example of that, even though his quote about human stupidity was spot on.
It’s the fox/hedgehog dynamic. The ideal “fox” (generalist) knows one aspect of everything. The ideal “hedgehog” (specialist) knows every aspect of one thing. As we learn and grow, we all fall somewhere in between on the scale. Einstein obviously leaned very strongly to the hedgehog side.
The exact quote is more like this
There are two things that are infinite. The universe and human stupidity. And I’m not so sure about the universe.
We shouldn’t confuse goals and solutions. If zero or very low emissions vehicles are desirable, then clearly make that the goal. Electric vehicles are one answer but not the only one.
Didn’t Honda showcase a very low emissions gasoline engine some ten years ago?
Except in La La land, CO2 is an evil emission right up their with CO and NO2. Thus, even the super low emission gas engines sold now also traced back to CA rules, they are useless for this goal. No gasoline engine would work. Fuel Cell car, yes. That emits water. But anything at emits CO2 is not going to be acceptable. Who cares if CA imports electricity from another state burning coal or natural gas to generate the electricity.
It’ll be interesting to see how the UK and France accomplish this since they are ahead of CA on setting this type of mandate.
I think politicians are confusing mandates for invention of new technology. if they mandate it, no matter what it is, of course someone will invent it. Or, more likely, more business and peeps will leave La La land.
The pollution in places like LA is not coming from the cars. It’s coming from the homes and factories.
Cars were cleaned up decades ago.
A few years back I read a report that claimed that cars in CA were so clean that the air exiting the car was cleaner than the air entering it.
The Left in CA is absolutely enthralled with a totalitarian dictatorship which can do absolutely anything it wants. They desperately crave that power for themselves.
“The Left in CA is absolutely enthralled with a totalitarian dictatorship”
I believe that’s entirely true, but it isn’t the reason the Left has taken California.
The electoral process in CA is corrupt and it favors the ruling party. They can’t be voted out because they control who gets on the ballot. California is no longer a member of a democratic republic; it’s now a single party dictatorship not unlike N. Korea.
It’s ironic that Kim is aiming his missiles at his only compatriot.
Shame they are going to need the petrochemical industry for some time yet unless all of these so called zero emission vehicles are going to have steel wheels.
From Wikipedia:
A synthetic rubber is any artificial elastomer. These are mainly polymers synthesized from petroleum byproducts. About 15 billion kilograms (5.3×1011 oz) of rubbers are produced annually, and of that amount two thirds are synthetic.[1] Global revenues generated with synthetic rubbers are likely to rise to approximately US$56 billion in 2020.[2] Synthetic rubber, like natural rubber, has uses in the automotive industry for tires, door and window profiles, hoses, belts, matting, and flooring.
So it looks like a fair bit of carbon black plus petroleum byproducts will be evenly distributed around the planet as all the tyres (tires) wear out.
tyres (tires)
+++++++++
🙂
No, they all will use natural rubber, so that Indonesia (and other countries) will need to cut all remaining tropical rainforests to provide the world with ti/yres…
Unfortunately, natural rubber wears out faster than most synthetic rubbers and can cause latex allergy from a natural protein in it…
Does that mean used cars too? You’ll never be able to sell your ICE car? So what happens to those millions of cars already on the road?
These people are insane.
Eustace, it’s become important to not conflate “these people” with the so called leadership of California.
Californians don’t support this nonsense. We weren’t even asked.
There will be a popular retribution.
Let’s both hope it’s peaceful retribution Dave. There’s an awful lot of money on the table and I’d be lying if I said that didn’t worry me. A lot. A whole lot.
I’m old. I don’t want to see this get out of hand. I had the idea I’d have a peaceful old age without having to blow the brains out of some obnoxious Marxist that wanted to eat my dog.
Just my own personal hopes and dreams.
I meant retribution in the ballot box, Bartleby. Although leftists’ acceptance of Antifa is worrisome.
Clarification: by “these people” I meant the political leadership (if you can call it that).
Unfortunately a majority of the voters keep voting the same idiots back into office.
They call themselves Antifa(scist) yet their tactics come straight from the playbook of Mussolini’s Blackshirts. The irony seems obvious to everyone but them.
California has been taken by economic force. Make no mistake about that. You can do all the California bashing you want but nothing is going to change. The ports of Los Angeles and Oakland have been taken and that’s just the facts Jack.
You folks keep thinking TV. Why the heck not? Your entire country is being taken right in front of your eyes and all you can do is make snarky remarks about Californians and why you’d be better off without them.
Go ahead. Do that. Wait five years. Learn to speak foreign languages.
30 years ago, they were saying the same thing about the Japanese.
Then it was Taiwan.
Then it was Korea.
Now it’s China.
I remember everyone panicking when the Japanese started buying up NY city. All i could think was that they were driving up the price of real estate and ultimately it would have to crash when they stopped buying, its not like they could pick the buildings up and move them to Japan. So in essence they were just sending their money to us for something that we would buy back later at a cheaper price when the market crashed. i was proven right in the end, everyone was afraid of the brilliant Japanese, so brilliant that gave us their money for nothing in return in the end.
so get out of ICE early.
and beachfront property.
If your going to die anyway, why not avoid the rush and kill yourself early.
At 1 foot per century, that beachfront property is going to be there a lot longer than any of us.
What a great idea. Price the poor and working class out of the state and California might finally escape it’s dubious title as the state with the highest proportion of people in poverty or near poverty in the nation (almost 40%). They could gentrify the entire state.
The poor aren’t going to leave because welfare is better in CA than almost anyplace else.
The people who are going to be squeezed out are the same ones who are already being squeezed out, the middle class.
Yep, even the rich in Kalifornia are on welfare, Elon Musk for one.
an apt comment bob, if only people realised that corporate welfare is several orders of magnitude greater than that going to the poorest that actually need it.
That depends on how you define corporate welfare.
Most people who make such statements regard any tax deduction as welfare.
Then they will complain about income inequality.
China’s sudden surge in automobiles is choking its big cities in smog. Their move to electric vehicles in parallel with massive investments in power generation makes sense in that light because it moves the ff combustion out of the city. They also have a very aggressive program to expand nuclear power generation.
The smog in the cities isn’t coming from cars.
It’s coming from industry and the use of coal for heating and cooking.
The chinese are nuts, their crash is coming and it is going to be Yuge.
Bob is correct; the world will not allow China’s mercantilism misbehavior to continue indefinitely.
I think it is a great idea. i think California should adopt all the eco-garbage it can think of. It will be truly amusing to see them come to Washington to beg for food because their 25% unemployment rate is causing mass starvation.
I got an acre of land. Very fertile Pleistocene lake bottom loam. I’ll have food.
Ditto. + 16 acres woodland. Trees are NOT fossil fuel so I can burn them and be GREEN !!!
Only if CA permits you to own a gun so that you can protect that food.
Shifting the location of emission may make sense, especially in high density population centers.
I’m green because I’m forcing someone else to live with the pollution that I’m creating.
The SimCity solution. Put all your industrial zoning and coal power plants on the edge of the map so half the pollution goes to your neighbors, who’re never going to complain about it.
I wonder what are the authorities are planning on doing if mum, dad and the kids travel over the border in their classic gas guzzling 67 Chevy on the way to enjoy a day at the beach.
No beach. Sea level rise wiped it out.
no, no… the beach is still there… but it moved a long ways inland…
At 1 foot per century, that beach isn’t going to be moving far or fast.
They better bring enough gas cans to get the car back to the border. Won’t be any filling stations left in CA.
BYD make EVs in China. Asking them what the future of the ICE is like asking Tesla what the future of ICE would be.
In the NE of China the temperature goes below -20 C regularly. Some places are below -40C. On occasion, I have seen trucks pulled over to the side of a road with the driver building a fire under the sump of the truck.
99% of the people, in my city of 8 million, live in apartments. Overnight parking is in no parking areas and bike lanes. Over 90% of car owners do this
There are over 700 NEW car registrations every day.
I’m not saying it is impossible that new ICEs will be banned in China. I’m just thinking of the logistical infrastructure nightmare of charging points.
Alex, please, don’t confuse the children with facts.
Well, note China just announced that it is requiring all auto manufacturers in China to produce at least 12% of output as EVs or low emissions vehicles…
And if the people refuse to buy them, will just shoot a few of them to motivate the rest.
I have no idea what China will do, but my guess is that they might end up eventually banning (most) pure ICE vehicles, but allowing hybrids which seem a lot more appropriate to frigid interior areas than pure EVs. What will California do? God alone knows. But I have to point out that large areas of Eastern and far Northern California are VERY thinly populated and seem quite unsuited to pure EVs using current or near future technology
I think whenever someone generates this kind of insanity (or like the iron dusting the ocean article) we ought to ask, “When did you decide to hate all humans?” Because underneath it all, that’s what they are saying.
What China SAYS it’s going to do and what it really does are two different things entirely.
Nothing works out as well as having gov’t dictate what the free market only should determine. What could go wrong? Ans: Everything.
So they don’t want visitors to drive there then? Theyre prepared to give up Twinkies, wheat, lumber, sugar, apples, steel,… This foolishness will end long before 2030 anyway.
Papers are coming out admitting temps have been over hyped in models. They say 3fold but that doesn’t include another fold or two added by rigging data. The greening of the planet is going to get too obvious to avoid updating the already startling rate that makes It the most exciting a CO2 story of them all . It is exponential and endothermic (hmmm… coincided with the Pause).
Fads typically last 10 years.
In the 70’s they closed highways on sundays or let you drive only every other day. In the 80’s that was all a thing of the distant past.
Don’t forget all the CO2 created by aircraft traveling to/from CA.
And the USN will be disturbed a bit when they can’t use GAS to power their ships and aircraft,
Not to mention the USCG, USA and USMC.
No wonder businesses can’t wait to leave CA.
Or the cargo ships that dock at one of CA’s ports.
MarkW – Shipping into CA is already dying.
With the widening of the Panama Canal, super size vessels can go to Texas and avoid the high costs of unloading in CA. Ports in Texas have been dredging and widening in anticipation of this already.
If CA starts now to build a dozen or so nuclear stations the power to move an all electric fleet would be coming on-line about the time the number of EVs started to escalate.
Take the amount of gasoline and diesel now used and plan on replacing it. likewise with off-street parking and charging stations. I currently drive an auto that will go 500 miles on its tank of gasoline. EVs may get there in 10 years, about the time the first new nuclear power comes. I doubt there will be a lot of extra power from nearby states because OR and WA are likely to go the same route.
So CA, go for it.
[Full disclosure: a: I visited CA once; b; I won’t be there to see what happens.]
EV’s won’t get there in any years. We have mountains like the Sierras where EV’s will get dumped by the side of the road after 10 miles.
His hesitation on IC engines shows somebody in that government has done the math and doesn’t want to talk about it.
The’re not stupid, the’re ideologues. We’re beginning to see the different revolutionary factions savaging each other. Always happens to true believers; orthodoxy must be enforced, even at the expense of the overall revolution.
“Oh, Lord, make me pure. But not yet”….There have been previous Californian laws about zero-emission vehicles, which also foundered on the rocks of reality.
In any case, the real issue is about traffic congestion, not CO2 emissions.
This is interesting. My final exam in Constitutional Law at Duke University School of Law in 1969 (yes, 47 years ago) had the question posed whether California could constitutionally ban gasoline powered vehicles. I’m pretty sure it would be a burden on interstate commerce and therefore unconstitutional under the US Constitution. In any case it wouldn’t apply to the federal government under the concept of federal preemption of state law.
Well, actually 48, but whose counting?
Certainly NOT the lawyers… They are NO COUNT.
Only advanced degree with absolutely NO math requirement !!!
Apart from working out the fees.
That’s what secretaries are for.
Federal vehicles are not registered in the various States.
If such a ban DID go into effect, auto sales along the Oregon border, Nevada border, and Arizona border of California would jump drastically.
I saw something similar in British Columbia a little over 20 years ago. There were long lines of BC cars crossing the border into Washington to buy gasoline. It was cheaper to spend time driving across the border to buy gas than it was to pay the exorbitant B.C. gas tax.
Governor stupid at it again.
Living in an upper middle class urban area, I’m fascinated by how much SUV’s outnumber electric cars. The enviros have a big hill to climb to ban the combustion engine, from culture and from flat economics. Show us the way California. I will enjoy watching you try to make your poverty stricken state realize the dreams of the rich greens. At least weather is on your side.
We’ll just all buy stickers that says “EV” and put dummy batteries in our trunks, gas for “backup”.
My ICE is already carbon NEGATIVE, it must be, I had to decoke the bores 3 years ago. Masses of carbon in it. , all buried it in the garden to be ecologically sound.
California has over 18,000 diesel busses who’s going to pay the $9B to replace them?
https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/07/31/electric-bus-makers-poised-for-an-l-a-gold-rush/
“L.A.’s transit agency, Metro, has a goal of converting its bus fleet to 100 percent electric by 2030. The agency says it will spend around $100 million a year in contracts.
There are at least 10 companies in Southern California making and selling battery electric buses. The biggest is the Chinese company BYD, which has a factory in Lancaster employing over 500 people, and Ebus in Downey. The Silicon Valley startup Proterra, with a new assembly plant in City of Industry, likens itself to the Tesla of electric buses.”
In other words, they are going to increase taxes tremendously.
They are going to have to increase the size of the lot where they park those buses over night as they are going to have to buy a lot of extra buses so that they can have enough on the road, even when half of them are in the garage being charged.
lol. who ever pay for political lunacy ?
More debts.
BAU
Governor Brown has publicly admitted to ignorance of the scientific method of investigation On several occasions I have offered to tutor him in the scientific method at his office in Sacramento, free of charge. Thus far Brown has spurned my offer. Brown’s thinking about political issues seems to have been molded by his experience as a seminarian for the priesthood of the Catholic church. Rather than being trained in logic, seminarians are trained in the dogma of the Church.
That’s interesting, I am only now beginning to notice how many of the leading and most feverous alarmists have a religious (and legal) background.
Are Cali considering banning internal combustion engines or only allowing registering electric cars. Those are very different things one excludes the possibility of alternatives to electric cars. My future fortune might depend on it, I am considering working on a large windup rubber band car for them. Imagine the pitch only human energy required to use and if you run flat in an emergency you just get out and wind it up.
You’re just winding us all up, aren’t you.
🙂
A real problem for the longer term future of California , and how this policy might be implemented is Lieutenant Governor Gavin Newsom. He will be be running for Governor when Moonbeam retires, and it may be that he is the brains behind this foolhardy legislation and is already the second most powerful politician in the state. Which means if he wins and becomes Governor then it will be be business as usual for how many more terms of leftist loony bin politics. Just look at his track record in San Francisco as mayor.
Of course, he is probably already the ‘brains’ behind much of the direction California has taken the last several years, and Californian politics is probably a lot more screwy than most other states or the federal government. This may just be the start of some very nasty leftist agenda, and if this ICE ban idea is implemented, then what else might he and his comrades want to implement. California is a very nice place to visit, but I don’t think I would want to live there. Especially in the future.
“Banning Engines” whether diesel or gasoline is just a proxy for killing humans, Governor Brown’s most favored group for killing. I would encourage Jerry Babe to just cut loose and declare the beautiful killing of Californians for the purpose of Saving The State Government. Then, Jerry Babe can tell us the income class of those to be killed. Should be great fun! Hahahahahahah
I discovered a Tesla dealership here in Sydney, Australia, while out for a walk one lunch time this week. I saw possibly 30, maybe more, Teslas of various models, some charging, most not. I guess it’s not easy where there is only 3 charging points. Quite a nice looking car inside and out and quite large, which surprised me. What was common about all of them was they were not on the roads being driven. Not a single one.
Here’s a quote from Live Science:
“Large wildfires in the western United States can pump as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere in just a few weeks as cars do in those areas in an entire year, a new study suggests. Oct 31, 2007”
Brown is a lunatic.
Hmm. From the way this story reads, CA would only ban the SALES of ICE vehicles. They can’t simply ban ICEs without running into problems with federal laws, and driving (no pun intended) away millions in tourist dollars spent by car-travelling out-of-staters.
Anyone out there who is still relatively young should look into buying a car dealership in Nevada, close to the state line with CA. Also open up a business that sells private p.o. boxes, so car buyers can register their cars in Nevada. Business would be very, very good.
And the real losers would be the CA car dealerships, and the state and local governments (Nevada gets all the sales taxes!).
In all truth, the sane thing to do would be to first pass a law saying all state and local governments, and all who hold elected positions, must only use EVs, to show the public that it can be done. I suspect the experiment would end there (Governor, “What do you mean my car is being charged? I have to go to a fund raiser. Ride in the staff’s Prius? Are you nuts?).
I think the state would have jurisdiction over vehicle registration requirements and it is illegal to maintain an out of state registration if you or your business reside in state.
And, CTM, anyone relocating into CA would face an extra $80K to $100K in per vehicle costs, including CA’s outrageous registration fees and sales taxes.
Most states require registering any vehicle that is in the state continuously for more than ninety days, or so. Many college kids register their car in the state of their college, not their home state. The location of the car, not the residency of the owner, is (theoretically) the deciding factor. The car’s registration does not need to match your driver’s license registration, either. As long as you had a valid Nevada plate, it would be up to the state of CA to prove that the car was in the state long enough to be registered. A few trips to Las Vegas each year would not only be fun, but thwart any CA efforts to demand registration. CA could try changing the law, but there is really no good solution – people can own cars registered in other states without being a full-time resident, and CA can not change that.
Many people (and I won’t give names) have property in multiple states. We, er, they, register their cars in the state with the most favorable taxes. That’s the way it goes.
If they do succeed in making most of the cars in state electric, gas stations are going to start becoming few and far between.
They’re smoking too much CO2 over there.
Talking of EV’s, how about this?
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-ideas/best-of-travel/electric-planes-could-be-developed-within-the-next-decade/news-story/1dd5355310265a044da2bb4a08d013b6
You won’t get me on one of those.
Will it be fused properly ? Or is that a fail-dangerous mode.
Where’s the San Andreas fault when you most need it !!!
Still building up stress.
Probably waiting for when Moonbeam Brown’s toy train set is done, just in time to twist it in knots.
We won’t need plug in charging stations per se. There will be a coil under the vehicle and everywhere you park will have similar embedded coils – doesn’t matter where you park the batteries will be charging – problem solved. (except possibly the cost and weight of putting copper coils everywhere but a minor detail)
Y’know when it boils down to it, where science really scores is being able to make predictions.
Science means not having to do the experiment over and over again.
Its possible to use science that no one disagrees with to calculate exactly how many extra nuclear power stations and how much lithium neodymium cobalt sand copper all this will take.
This seems not to have been done by the legislature. Or if it has the science has been ignored.
Today’s ‘progress’ is all marked by a significant change of policy. No longer is it to seek out cost effective practical solutions to real problems, no it’s all about tossing billions into projects that won’t solve problems, to see if they will.
The only saving grace is that the problems don’t exist, either.
‘ave not read all the comments here but aren’t we all rather missing something?
It goes…
There are a plethora of battery powered electric tools we can now buy. Besides obviously long life torches (esp using LEDs) but drills, cutters & grinders for professionals and amateurs alike but also sweepers, cleaners and endless things for around the garden.
Lets thank lithium battery technology for making them a semblance of useful.
But anything along those lines of respectable quality (usually) comes with two batteries. The general idea being that one can be recharging while you use the other.
The alert amongst us will immediately see The Problem here – where are the EVs with spare batteries?
Are these cars not things (tools) of ‘quality’ ‘reliability’ and ‘usefulness’
There is the elephant – what would an EV with a spare battery cost – even before the cronies move in and create an (imagined) shortage of something important. Like lithium or neodymium for example.
Is that not what the Chinese are doing here – pre-empting a lithium shortage (or esp neodymium to go in the motors of these vehicles)
The precedent is there already.
Big windmills have ‘problems’ with gearboxes so some windmill makers are experimenting with (and using) permanent magnets, allowing the generator within the windmill to run at very low speed instead of being synchronous (3000rpm for the UK) negating the need for a gearbox.
As soon as they started using neodymium, the price of the stuff rose by a factor of ten. Way up there with gold and platinum.
Government mandates such as these always create a price fixing hell (for consumers) and a price fixing heaven for suppliers.
Will they ever learn – its not looking good is it?
These folks seem oblivious to the coming revolution in energy generation that molten salt modular nuclear reactors wil bring. When you are driven by irrational fears – nuclear energy in this case,
you pay, and you pay, and you pay. Brown may just be the most evil SOB around : this clown put a tax on e-cigarettes , as a response to the many who were switching from tobacco to vaping, always to avoid cancer, costing California lost tax revenue. Brown contradicted the world’s leading respiratory doctors, who have made videos recommending vaping to smokers – Brown claims inhaling flavored water vapor is “dangerous.” So, Gov Brown, how many people did you give lung cancer to today? Brown is one SOB who deserves all the worst.
Whatever technology bring us, molten salt nuclear reactor or whatever, it will take decades to appear in the picture, and even more to make a difference, so it makes sense to plan BAU
Exactly.
the most optimistic assessment I’ve seen of the chances for a thorium reactor gives the early 2030s for a prototype…
@paqyfelc & Griff: If MSR’s are still a decade or two away, it is because the Nixon Administration pulled the plug on development of them back in the early 1970’s in favor of other nuclear programs. Oak Ridge was working on the technology back in the 1960’s already and wanted to continue it. So the MSR lost decades of development time because of Nixon’s decision until it was rediscovered (in 2008 I think).
I’m not claiming here that MSR’s will find their way to commercial reality someday. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But Griff, the solar panel has been around since 1954. According to recent figures from the Energy Information Agency here in the U.S., solar still doesn’t even provide 2% of our electricity needs after 63 years. Compared to nuclear power, that sounds like a pretty awful record now, doesn’t it?
You should be the one to boast Griffy-poo.
Yep and it would take 20 years to build enough wells to drill us out of $120 a barrel oil and even then it won’t work, sept it took 4 years and that’s fighting the government. If the money and will are there the technical problems can be overcome much more quickly.
And E-cigs are a better quitting aid than any kind of nicotine gum/lozenge/patch because the chemical dependancy is only half the story. The repeated habit of bringing the cigarette up to the mouth for a drag has its own pleasurable feedback loop independent of the drug.
If they truly want to lower tobacco use, they should be promoting vaping, not treating it like normal smoking (which its not). But then they wouldn’t be getting as much money from those onerous tobacco taxes, would they?
I am a fan of EVs for reasons unconnected with CO2 (I’ve not seen any sound evidence to connect CO2 with global temperatures), but I am even more of a fan of small government. Let the market decide. By 2040 the electric motor will have kicked the ICE engine into the weeds on grounds of driveability, quietness, comfort and cost. You Americans need to watch your backs though, or the your domestic automakers will fail to make the change and go to the wall like Kodak. Look at stats on lithium ion battery production in 2020 in US and in China
It’s not the drive train that’s the problem.
The engine in your ICE vehicle will last a lot longer than the battery pack in an electric, and cost less to replace when it does finally wear out.
EVs have a lot of hurdles to overcome, so that seems doubtful even by 2040. I wouldn’t worry so much about American automakers, or about “watching our backs”. At this point, they remain subsidized toys for the wealthy, useful only for short trips and thus needing a backup vehicle, not unlike wind and solar power.
The American consumer will, if left alone by grubbing government, will by the highest quality needed at the lowest prices, as always, John. Nobody cares the race or nationality of the fat cat providing for that need.
I like electric vehicles because of the simplicity of the drive train – due to the excellent torque-speed characteristic of the electric motor vs the internal combustion engine. But the battery is the weak point – and there is no Moore’s Law for batteries.
Nevertheless, there are technology breakthroughs from time to time, and we cannot rule them out. For example, fracking of shales, first for natural gas and later for oil, was not foreseen by many energy professionals, and yet it has revolutionized the industry. Maybe someone will make a quantum breakthrough in battery technology – we will see.
A second weak point of electric vehicles is the electric grid, which is apparently incapable of handling the increased burden of many electric vehicles. Furthermore, the grid is being degraded by imbecilic green energy policies that simply do not work, primarily due to the intermittency of wind and solar power. Exorbitant costs for electrical transmission, distribution and overheads are also causing electricity costs to be overpriced. Perhaps one solution is for households to get off the grid entirely, and generate their own electricity from natural gas or propane. With suitable backup systems, this could greatly reduce costs and still provide adequate reliability.
It IS frustrating to see politicians make really foolish decisions about energy. Most politicians are far too uneducated to even opine on the subject, let alone formulate energy policy. For example, it was obvious from the start that hydrogen-as-fuel was a dead end, because of very low energy density. Corn ethanol is also a poor and destructive idea, as are most food-to-fuel schemes, which have contributed to excessive drawdown of the Ogalalla Aquifer in the USA and widespread rainforest clearcutting in the tropics. It was also obvious that grid-connected wind and solar power schemes were costly and ineffective, primarily due to intermittency.
In general, green energy policies have been a costly disaster for society, causing great environmental damage, increasing energy cost and reducing grid reliability. This damage has been high in the developed world but even higher in the developing world, where green energy nonsense has denied struggling populations access to cheap, abundant energy systems.
Fossil fuels comprise about 85% of global primary energy, whereas green energy provides less than 2%, despite trillions of dollars in squandered subsidies. Imagine how much better the world’s poor would be if these vast sums had been spent intelligently on clean water, sanitation and efficient energy systems.
Cheap, abundant reliable energy is the lifeblood of society – it IS that simple. When politicians fool with energy policy, real people suffer and die. That is the tragic legacy of global warming alarmism.
Regards, Allan MacRae
In the long run (in which we all will be dead) distributed and individual generation will be the norm.
If there is one thing you can be sure of, its that distributed and individual generation will never be viable.
Leo, today’s truths will be the future’s jokes.
Really Leo – and on what special knowledge do you base that conclusion?
Jerry Brown is so dumb he probably thinks that getting rid of pylons and burying cables is reducing overheads to zero
V. good!
Well, banning ICE on cars, is only half of the story. People will find way to get around (like : putting some engine-generator somewhere in the trunk to provided needed electricity for the car). Meaning you have to ban ICE not just in cars, but everywhere, imbue the police extensive searching right inside cars and home to look for the banned ICE. etc. Casualties and human rights abuse will ensue, like for every ban on useful things.
Unless turbine cars come back which may be. Or electro-turbined cars (turbine running an electrical generator. Or whatever. Who knows what technology will prevail. If politicians don’t mess things up, that is.
How can I put it to you Guv? I think it’s called Catch22-
http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/agribusiness/dairy/dairy-farmers-go-offgrid-as-power-prices-surge/news-story/3f3b42124b2adef064da266255d03af7
What is sad is that Griff is thick enough to think this is all good and positive. I don’t think he has ever opened an economics text book or considered any cost benefit analysis …. if your glasses have enough rose coloured tint the green schemo-dreamos all make sense.
If political announcements can over turn the laws of physics, surely a law can over turn the laws of economics?
They keep referring to CO2 as “pollution”. The stupid, it burns.
If you’ve ever wondered how the Hitler rose to power look no further than the global warming propaganda filed under “if told often enough”. Only a return of world wide glaciation may, just may, end this one propaganda campaign. Even then, CA will likely still be combating the return of the warming.
Ever seen a non-fossil fuel vehicle? Want to close airports and ports? Ban on exhaust vehicles in urban areas would reduce soot emissions and be beneficial especially for asthma and other lung disease patients which are numerous.
So much for the claim that electric vehicles are the obvious car of the future.
The only way they can get people to buy them is to ban all alternatives.
Eliminating the alternatives is what is happening in electricity production as well. The only way to succeed is eliminat4e the competition. And I wouldn’t call the result success.
This is one time where you really need to let the stupidity grenade go off.
Pointing out the bugs in the system hasn’t dissuaded the state fear-based re-ordering of society. That just looks at technical problems to be solved. Or put another way, how do so many sheep keep jumping off a cliff on the advice of this nut ball? Because it may be possible to jump off the cliff.
Awesome. Governor moonbeam is the best. Give him 10 more terms California you morons.
I wonder how much money Elon is sending to Jerry?
The only reason that a state or a sovereign nation would ban petroleum based transportation is to immobilize the citizens, and force them into the rat warrens we call cities and to use so called “public transportation.” The short range of the electric car dooms it to nearby use only, no long trips. The low power density of the battery dooms it as well since you can’t sit in a traffic jam for an hour and maintain any sense of comfort. SO, if you can’t go anywhere, you won’t know anything “first hand” about any place beyond the 50 to 100 mile radius you can trust your electric to go and return. It falls right in with the UN plan to set aside most of the world for anything but humans with the exception, of course, the wealthy exceptionals. Nice big spacious parks for them to go to without having to deal with “common folk.”
Virtually all public transportation in California involves the use of fossil fuels so all transportation in the state would come to a hault. California already has laws forbiding the use of livestock because of methane polution.
“To reach the ambitious levels of reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, we have to pretty much replace all combustion with some form of renewable energy by 2040 or 2050,”
Complete BS and clearly illustrates why politicians must have no role in science. All we need to do is properly quantify the climate sensitivity and the Paris goals will be met with lots of margin, at least relative to any temperature change caused by CO2 emissions …
What happens to the millions of gas-powered cars now on the road? Everyone in CA would take a huge financial hit. What about the environmental hit from junking them or transporting them?
Sounds good – always wanted to buy a nice Ferrari California for $1000.
:-).
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Ferrari+california&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBCA431CA431&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz6vnt6srWAhVY12MKHY8iCYcQ_AUICigB&biw=1067&bih=465#imgrc=3-rrRAFMIIQUZM:&spf=1506703362207
I think Governor Moonbeam is in the pay of “Big Legos”.
https://youtu.be/_ObE4_nMCjE
Heh, “2030”. No one should bother with things that politicians say will or should happen well outside their terms.
I just went through Irma (eye went over me). Power went out for 36 hours where I stayed and 5 days where I live. Many decided to take to the highways and get out of Florida as the predicted track ran up the Gulf coast or slightly inland from it. The highways were at a crawl on motels available all spoken for in the state. From my home it is 370 miles from the state line. No electric car could have made it to safety. And there are no jerry cans for electrons to extend your range. And when the grid drops out all mobility is lost.
…and places in east naples are still without power
I could never trust a governor who always reminds me of the father in “Arrested Development”.
I see a couple of comments in this thread, about California losing gas tax revenue, because electric cars will not be buying gasoline.
Here’s a copy and paste from
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/01/la-times-what-would-it-take-to-persuade-you-to-buy-an-electric-car/comment-page-1/#comment-2598524
All the governments along the west coast of North America (California Oregon Washington and British Columbia) have been thinking about a mileage tax / toll for electric cars. As more and more fuel efficient and electric cars come on to the roads, governments will be collecting less money in gas taxes. That shortfall in revenue has to come from somewhere.
Example:
Washington Road Usage Charge Pilot Project
Test Drive the Road Ahead
GAS TAX WON’T MEET FUTURE NEEDS
https://waroadusagecharge.org/
It would likely lead to revolution, so I think they should.
You’re talking California. If it is presented as a left idea, it could never cause revolution, they’ll just move into their 300 sq ft apartments and say how green we are!
Can’t wait to see this in operation;
http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/tesla-founder-elon-musk-inks-deal-with-energy-regulators-to-build-worlds-biggest-battery-in-jamestown/news-story/097ac71a1759bb836b79e741a6a37d6f
Why waite? If fossil fuels are so bad the state should immediately ban all goods and services that have anything to do with fossil fuels and that even includes shelter, transportation, food, water distribution, and clothing. People who want to live will have to leave the state immediately. For California, no people means no problems. But such an effort will have no effect on climate change because the climate change we have been experiencing is caused by the sun and the oceans over which Mankind has no control.
The inconvenient truth about banning gas engines
Extended-range EVs with on-board gas generators are an immediate and real-world solution to emissions
France and England have banned internal combustion engines. Oh, the consequences are still a long way off — ink still fresh, the decrees won’t take effect for 23 years — but, in the few short months since Paris and London started this trend, there’s been an avalanche of anti-ICE (internal combustion engine) legislation: Germany (home to the diesel scandal that empowered these bans) is contemplating similar proscriptions. So is Scotland. Even China, home to roughly 47 per cent of the world’s coal use, wants to at least appear environmentally friendly and is contemplating identical restrictions. No one is talking about such blanket bans in North America yet, but the pendulum has swung and my 40-year-old engineering curriculum reminds that momentum, once initiated, is an energy not easily subdued.
What will be the effect of such bans?
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-the-inconvenient-truth-about-banning-gas-engines
Part 2
More inconvenient truths on banning gas engines
High-speed EV recharging stations on highways sound great – until you hear how much they would cost
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-more-inconvenient-truths-on-banning-gas-engines
Cam, costs don’t matter to the copper “scavengers,” who will greatly benefit from more stuff to steal.
To see what our future looks like, look at Cuba today. For a different reason, but there has been a shortage of new ICE vehicles there for quite a while.
Currently there is not a scientific basis for doing something as today’s climate models provide us with no information about the conditional outcomes of events and information of this kind is required for control of the climate system.
I have a feeling that once California’s leftist government tries to implement this madness that the political landscape in Sacramento will see a sudden shift to the right as this is political suicide.
Perhaps this shift can be triggered by publication in a peer-reviewed scientific journal of a proof of the contention that the IPCC climate models convey no information to the EPA or the California Air Resources Board that is predictive of the outcomes of events for Earth’s climate system. To prove this contention would be easy for the right person to accomplish.