By Andy May
On Bret Stephens facebook page, I complimented Mr. Stephens on what I thought was a very good column. I also noted that the eminent climate scientist Dr. Richard Lindzen had said similar things. To this a George Smith replied, in part, as follows:
“Few “skeptics” have been debunked as much as Lindzen and Spencer.”
Link to comment here.
If you follow the link you will see it is followed with a google search for “Lindzen debunked.” No support, no data, no peer reviewed references, just anything that says “Lindzen debunked.” This is “internet slime” at its worst. We see a lot of this sort of reprehensible behavior around climate science, often by people who have no scientific background at all. But, I am a scientist with 42 years’ experience and have been studying and writing about climate science for years, so I do want to address some of the scurrilous attacks found in this google search.
The first reference in my search led to desmogblog, here. This post is by an anonymous author who calls himself “climate nexus.” The climate nexus group, including Jeff Nesbit and Robert Tanner, does not include anyone with scientific training that I could find. They seem to be a team of professional writers and political hacks.
Their arguments appear to be as vacuous as their resumes. First they claim that climate models are accurate. This has been disproven by Dr. John Christy for the recent past and by Liu, et al. for the entire Holocene epoch. In the figure below (source Javier, here) proxy global average temperatures for the whole Holocene (last 11,500 years) are shown in black. Computer model temperatures calculated by Liu, et al. (2014) are shown in green, carbon dioxide and methane concentrations from ice cores are also shown. For the Neoglacial Period, temperatures go down, but the computer model temperatures go up, so does the carbon dioxide level. Quite obviously, for the Holocene, neither CO2 nor the computer models are predictive of temperature. This has been called the Holocene Temperature Conundrum.

Figure 1 (source here)
Below we see Dr. Christy’s graph comparing computer model temperatures with satellite and weather balloon measurements. I should mention that the satellite and weather balloon measurements are completely independent of one another and support each other:

Figure 2 (source here)
All of this “hottest year on record” nonsense is absurd, we are talking about very small changes in the average temperature. The surface temperature records are only accurate to +-0.2°C at best and almost all of the last 35 years of satellite and weather balloon data fit between -.2°C and +.2°C. The exceptions are the 1998 and 2015 El Ninos and a few other anomalies. Also, see the discussion of temperature accuracy by Lindzen here and especially his figure 1. See below:

Figure 3 (Data sources here and here)
There is a secular warming trend that has persisted since the end of the Little Ice Age in the 19th century. But the Little Ice Age was a very cold period where multiple solar and ocean cycles hit their lows all at once. This is a period of cold that is unlikely to occur again for a very long time, except in a major glacial episode. We should be grateful we are coming out of it. In the Little Ice Age the cold was devastating, glaciers advanced and destroyed villages. The Little Ice Age cold was blamed, in part, for plagues. The public at the time often blamed the cold on Jews and witches and murdered supposed witches by the tens of thousands because they thought the witches were controlling the climate and causing the cold, see the story here. The figure below is a 1486 woodcut of a supposed sorceress conjuring up a hailstorm. It is from Professor Wolfgang Behringer’s excellent book A Cultural History of Climate.

Figure 4, “Anthropogenic Climate Change” (source here)
Then, as now, the public chose to blame people for climate change without proof. We really have not advanced very far in the last 500 years.
For more details about the cause of the Little Ice Age, see the post by Javier here, especially the top frame of figure 6. We can easily see the minimums of the Eddy cycle and the Bray cycle occurring in the Little Ice Age, along with the Wolf, Sporer, Maunder and Dalton solar minima. Coming out of such a cold period we would expect dramatic natural warming.
Desmogblog posts the following comparison of supposed projections by Lindzen and Hansen to an unnamed observation record of global temperatures. Their reference is a blog post at Skeptical Science. Below is the graphic, showing the supposed “comparison.”

Figure 5, the misleading graph in Desmogblog here.
When we go to the source article at skepticalscience here, we find that Dr. Lindzen did not make any temperature predictions in 1989 or in any other year. The line shown above is the author’s (Dana Nuccitelli’s) interpretation of someone’s (Eugene Mallove’s) notes of a lecture given by Dr. Lindzen in 1989. We do not even have Dr. Lindzen’s own notes of the lecture! Below is the actual comparison of Hansen’s 1988 projections to the GISTEMP dataset of surface temperatures.

Figure 6 (source)
Ignore the Lindzen lines, they are made up. Hansen et al., 1988 provided three scenarios. His scenario A is way off, scenario B isn’t bad until the pause (see here) begins about 2000, then it overshoots actual temperatures by quite a bit. They stop the GISTEMP graph in 2008, so we don’t see how bad it actually gets. See figure 2 for a better picture against more accurate measurements. Scenario C is probably the best, but it is not a problem for mankind. Either way, the graph in DeSmogblog is misleading. I would accuse the team of scientific malpractice if they were scientists, but they are not.
They go on to say Lindzen’s Iris effect from tropical clouds has been debunked, which is nonsense. Lindzen’s idea (see here) is alive and well and the subject of vigorous debate, as are all good ideas in science. No one knows whether clouds are a net positive feedback or a net negative feedback on global temperatures, evidence goes both ways. For interesting discussions of clouds and their effects on climate see here and here. I favor Lindzen’s idea personally, as do many scientists, but others disagree. Only time will tell.
Then they go on to my friend Dr. Willie Soon, who was viciously attacked in the New York Times by a Greenpeace written slander piece published on the front page of the paper, disguised as reporting by Justin Gillis and John Schwartz, for more details see here and here.
As for Dr. Roy Spencer, one of the inventors of satellite atmospheric temperature measurements, the idea that he has been debunked is absurd. He is the team leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer for NASA’s Aqua satellite. His landmark original algorithm for measuring temperature, in the early 1990’s, did not properly take into account satellite orbital decay for sure. But, this was fixed 20 years ago! Why beat a 20-year-old drum! Dr. Spencer is an evangelical Christian, but in the United States we are not supposed to discriminate based on religion, one is free to have their own beliefs. So far as I know, and I’ve read most of what Dr. Spencer has written on climate, his views are very mainstream. None have been debunked, although not everyone agrees with him on all issues.
I write for blogs, including my own, but I try and document what I do and keep it as accurate as possible. Doing google searches for a phrase like “Lindzen debunked” and then picking out headlines that agree with your preconceived ideas and posting them without checking them is disgusting. Just my opinion.
It’s more than disgusting, it’s lazy and dishonest. It should immediately disqualify one from even being acknowledged as an adult in the room.
Of course, there’s always the Jon Stewart defense, in which claiming to be a stand-up philosopher shields one from all criticism because “Hey, I was only joking around.”
No, you are wrong, it is not just your opinion 😉
Scientists do not “debunk” so every time you see that term you know that you are not dealing with a scientific argument but political opinion and slurs.
Since there are far more idiot alarmists with minimal to zero science training who think it is the divine duty to “debunk” anything that looks like may challenge their pagan belief system, it is obvious that doing a google search for “Lindzen debunked” will turn up a metric ton of uninformed trash and handful of disingenuous crap like desmegblog or Nazi cross-dressers youth movement at SkS.
‘debunked‘ means alarmists made two grammar mistakes in ‘defunded‘
Hey now…
Great post Andy! Desmog and SkepSci are truly despicable.
I plotted GISTEMP on top of Hansen’s model as it was published…
The recent El Niño pushed it up to Scenario B last year. Otherwise, it mostly tracks C, the scenario in which CO2 stopped rising.
And GIS temp data is the hottest of the hot and most adjusted. UAH is the coldest and is still down at Scenario C
GISTEMP is the closest current temperature series to the observed temperatures Hansen used in 1988.
No surprise, since, until he retired recently to go into activism full time (as if he wasn’t already), Hansen was responsible for cooking up GISTEMP, which is a pack of lies.
Where does Hansen pull the estimated temperatures for the Eemian out of? Maybe you shouldn’t answer that. All the estimates for Eemian temperature, I’ve seen, have it maxing about 2 degrees above the current global average, and is backed by other evidence, like ice-free Arctic summers. But he is saying that the entire temperature range was slightly less than 0.5 degrees, and all between 0.5-1.0 degree above the average temp during 1960. No science is safe from Warmist revisions.
I don’t know where he got that estimate. It’s definitely low for the Eemian and looks low for the Altithermal (Holocene Climatic Optimum) too.
Thanks David.
In Figure 1, the Holocene CO2 appears to be inversely related to the Proxy Temperatures. Has someone investigated the statistics on that?
Desmegblog were, of course, the co-conspirators in the Peter Gleick fraud, being the original publishers of his falsified “Heartland” dossier.
GISTEMP has more makeup on it, than you would need to turn Miss Piggy into something like this
http://www.wonderslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Amber-Heard-Most-Beautiful-Woman-2016.jpg
And I always thought that you cannot put lipstick on a pig.
There is a whole galaxy of lovely models here:
http://cmip-pcmdi.llnl.gov
PCMDI’s CMIP effort is funded by the Regional and Global Climate Modeling (RGCM) Program of the Climate and Environmental Sciences Division of the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office of Science, Biological and Environmental Research (BER) program.
Coupled atmosphere-ocean general circulation models allow the simulated climate to adjust to changes in climate forcing, such as increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. CMIP began in 1995 by collecting output from model “control runs” in which climate forcing is held constant. Later versions of CMIP have collected output from an idealized scenario of global warming, with atmospheric CO2 increasing at the rate of 1% per year until it doubles at about Year 70. CMIP output is available for study by approved diagnostic sub-projects.
Phase three of CMIP (CMIP3) included “realistic” scenarios for both past and present climate forcing. The research based on this dataset provided much of the new material underlying the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).
http://cmip-pcmdi.llnl.gov/cmip5/index.html
CMIP5 is meant to provide a framework for coordinated climate change experiments for the next five years and thus includes simulations for assessment in the AR5 as well as others that extend beyond the AR5. CMIP5 is not, however, meant to be comprehensive; it cannot possibly include all the different model intercomparison activities that might be of value, and it is expected that various groups and interested parties will develop additional experiments that might build on and augment the experiments described here.
Hansen: Funded by Big Beanz?
http://www.climatedepot.com/2015/02/22/why-was-media-silent-flashback-nasa-james-hansen-received-250000-from-partisan-heinz-foundation-endorsed-dem-john-kerry-for-pres-in-2004/
Good post. Share your opinion about internet slime.
Over at Climate Etc, Judith and I posted back to back on Lindzen’s adaptive iris on May 26, 2015. Go to Climate Etc and type adaptive iris into the search box. Both posts are first listed. Judith wrote about her dialog with Lindzen on adaptive iris-a behind the scenes look. Has never been debunked. I wrote about the then new Mauritsen and Stevens paper showing that when included in a GCM, adaptive iris lowered sensitivity strongly. One of the pieces of missing physics.
Rud, you have lived in the backwards U.S. for too long. You are not qualified to tell whether anything has been debunked. You have to take Mr. Smith’s word for it, just like progressives did in Germany and the Soviet Union – and do here now.
CG, I lived 2 years in Japan and 6 in Germany, plus speak passable French and fluent German. Plus 3 Harvard degrees (which might be a negative given they hired Oreskes). Just an overeducated stoopid ‘Murican Deplorable. To some, anyway, like apparently the GS character Andy May links to.
From the Urban Dictionary
TOP DEFINITION
debunk
A word used by people unable to see reality from a point of view other than the one they were indoctrinated into from childhood. It represents the be-all and end-all arguments that close the case once-and-for-all on further discussion of the issue and makes tin-foil hat wearing buffoons of anyone who refuses to see the logic of their disinformation.
Nice work Andy,
One point worth noting is, is I’m not sure is reasonable to use the Marcott reconstruction in fig. 1 as representative of an accurate measure of historic climate.
All post hoc proxy selections aside, is it safe to say Marcott was selected for it’s gross divergence from models?
Marcott (Science 2013) is OK up to MWP. Resolution is a few hundred years. Marcott 20th century hockey stick not ok because he fiddled coretop dates. Essay A high stick foul in ebook Blowing Smoke. See essentially the same essay at Climate Etc posted as Playing Hockey, Blowing the Whistle.
Yep. Marcott is a decent reconstruction for most of the Holocene. The maddening thing is that they very well knew that the 20th century Hockey Stick was inconsistent with the resolution of their reconstruction and included it anyway.
DM, a clear case of academic misconduct concerning the ‘modern’ era. I laid out the forensic evidence in the essay. Marcott gutted his Ph.D thesis in order to join the warmunist club.
The Marcott curve in my plot has the coretop dates as published by the original authors. The reconstruction still has issues as it is very heavy on alkenone records that are problematic and tend to low the overall temperature range. But so far that’s everything we have got. It is the only Holocene global reconstruction published.
I have no faith in Marcott 2013 as an accurate representation of the past 20K years. He was on thin ice is redating his proxies. Furthermore, if you look at the individual proxies, the anomalies are all over the map. His result might be attractive, it might even be near the truth, but how he got there…..
Marcott 2013 should never be shown without the error bars in Temperature AND Time.
DeSmog is a PR site. They even admit it in the about us section, or used to. They are admitted shills and it is not worth wasting much time on them.
And WUWT?
Do you have any evidence, or are you just trying to be mendacious.
RS, I guest post science critiques here, albeit not as often as at Climate Etc. WE posts original science here.Moreover, moderation allows critique here (post pub review) unlike desmog blog, SKS, and RealClimate. And you know it, and hate it, but cannot stop it. Even your handle is a lie.
WUWT is written by a meteorologist.
Christopher:
You say
No, WUWT is published by a meteorologist. For example, the above WUWT article was not written by the WUWT publisher.
More importantly, climate is ‘average’ weather so a meteorologist is an expert in it and, therefore, is very appropriate to choose what to publish on WUWT.
However, the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was Chaired by a railroad engineer.
Please explain whatever point it was you were trying to make.
Richard
Who is paying the supposed shills on WUWT?
And even if WUWT is the same, that simply means Desmog is as cbone claims, so you agree with that?
At least when WUWT publishes a PR article it is blatantly obvious, “A public service announcement on temperature” is a good example.
Of the two co-founders of Desmogblog, one is a person who openly admitted that when he started the place, he knew nothing about climate science and yet also declared that skeptic climate scientists were liars, which he based essentially on the writings of a person who turns out to be the other unnamed Desmog co-founder (self-admitted 8 seconds into this audio interview https://soundcloud.com/sciencepope/ross-exposing-coal-media ), a person who is part of what I term the epicenter of the smear of skeptic climate scientists. Please see: “James Hoggan’s Monster Journalistic Due Diligence Lapse” http://gelbspanfiles.com/?p=2728
Hansen’s Scenario A is what has verified. Actually, emissions have been much higher than “business as usual”, so I give Hansen an A+ … not for skill but for Scenario.
Sometimes, Hansen apologists will claim that Scenario B is what actually happened. But that is only because the earth’s CO2 uptake has been much higher than expected. So, emissions were higher than expected, uptake was higher than expected so CO2 remaining in the atmosphere is about what was expected. Two wrongs, in this case, make a right. And two Wrights make an airplane.
Anyway, estimating atmospheric concentration of CO2 in the future is a major source of forecast error that is rarely, if ever, discussed. So even if the models are good (they aren’t), then the forecast can be way off anyway.
BTW… the temp trend has been just 40% of the Hansen Scenario A in 29 years. That’s a 2.5 to one over-forecast. I don’t recommend wagering a few trillion dollars on forecasts with that track record and a sample size of one.
I assume we’re talking Hansen’s 1988 congressional presentation here. IIRC, the lines had labels. Scenario A was Business as usual. Scenario B was some emissions reductions. Scenario C was holding emissions at some early 21st level forever. I assume there’s something somewhere that describes the assumptions in more detail, but I’ve never encountered it.
Anyway, it seems to me we should be tracking between A and B. We’re actually tracking way below B.
Bottom line. Hansen was probably sincere. But he was wrong.
Don K
If Hansen was sincere — it was an ego driven sincerity. He always had to lead his own parade — which always lead him to marching off cliffs
Eugene WR Gallun
Here are Hansen’s scenarios from his 1988 paper(“Global Climate Changes as Forecast…”):

Apparently we’re winning, bigly, because the only thing I’ve seen coming out of the Warmist camp lately is slime and slander. When all your opponent has is logical fallacy, it’s time to just smile and nod, then ignore them.
Yup. My conclusion also. Bigly.
Well Andy May; I am going to presume that YOU DO know how to cut an paste text from items on the web, including posts here at WUWT.
Why don’t you take a few moments to teach yourself HOW to do that.
Then see if you can use that new skill to cut and paste the ENTIRE sentence or paragraph from which you cherry picked the fake news item that you have just posted here.
Willis E. is constantly telling (his) critics to cite THE EXACT WORDS ; all of them that are being criticized. The reason Willis does that is he is tired of being taken to task for things he did not say; and justifiably so.
Same goes for me. Use the exact words; all of them in the context.
I never ask any one for an apology; they have already amply demonstrated just how much I would consider their opinion to be worth.
G
PS If I was not the ” a George Smith ” you are writing about; I usually go by ” george e. smith”; not ” a George smith “, then good luck to whomever it was.
G
[The mods want to know what metal a George Smith uses on his anvil … .mod]
PPS
I have no idea who is Bret Stephens nor have I any knowledge of his facebook page; nor have I ever visited or posted anything there about anything or anything else, nor have I ever visited or posted anything on any other social network.
So I have no idea just what quotation Andy May is bitching about.
G
george e smith,
Perhaps you need to consider how common the name George Smith is…with or without any other initials involved. Then maybe consider how personal and illogical assumptions often bias our ability to respond with reason and intellect.
Or maybe just how clicking on the author’s provided link would have easily helped you realize, just like the rest of us, that Andy wasn’t talking about something YOU posted elsewhere. (Your 2nd and 3rd responses indicate that it did occur to you after your first post that he COULD be talking about someone else, but you are still being “bitchy” about it)
If anyone here deserves an apology, it’s Andy, but to paraphrase, you’ve “already amply demonstrated how much he should consider your apology to be worth”.
Well Aphan you just struck out.
As it happens, I did click on the link that was supposed to take me to the exact item being referenced; I was curious to see what someone would post under my name.
It took me to nothing of the kind; just a home page; that said nothing about anything but invited me to log in; which I didn’t do. I expect a link to go where it says it will. There was no information about anything on the page that the link went to.
Yes I know how common the name George Smith is. I am registered at every motel on the planet; maybe only for an hour or so.
That’s why I use my middle E (Effiiciency).
And sometimes I add a legal disclaimer, that I am Not George Elwood Smith who was the 2009 Nobel Prize winner in Physics, for his invention of Charge-Coupled devices; while he was at Bell Telephone Laboratories. Our careers crossed paths for around 40 years, but we never actually met. But I was often mistaken for him; at conferences, even before he became a Nobellist. (No when I tried to register for the conference).
And as for posting elsewhere; there is precisely one web site on the entire internet, ; that is NOT WUWT, where a post by me could be read. And If I posted anything related to climate or physics or other science, the readers there would wonder what the hell I was talking about and wasting their time.
So no I posted nothing anywhere else. If I posted anything about any of those realist scientists; it would have to have been somewhere here at WUWT, in which case Andy could have found and linked to that. (if it exists).
Willie Soon has been defending himself from the CAGW “debunkers” since before I first became aquainted with his work. His well known review paper with Sallie Baliunas of hundreds of peer reviewed papers from every corner of the globe, demonstrating the the mediaeval warm period and the little ice age were indeed global phenomena, and not local weather events was savagely attacked.
At the time Michael Mann’s infamous hockey stick paper which apparently first aired in the first IPCC report was clearly labeled as a NORTHERN HEMISPHERE phenomenon.
After the Soon / Baliunas review paper, the “Northern Hemisphere” title magically evaporated from Mann’s already peer reviewed paper, and he has tried to palm it off as a global happenstance ever since.
So if you can find anything I might have posted at WUWT relating to CAGW “debunkers ” that would still have exactly whatever I actually wrote; that is if I ever wrote anything bout that subject.
But I certainly have posted nothing like that anywhere else, and if I had it would have fully identified me by my real name; not ” a george smith “.
I’m not ashamed to own anything I post as G, nor for that matter as g . Some of the stuff we read here is just too funny to leave uncommented; it keeps me awake from glancing at some of the donnybrooks that plague a lot of the threads here.
G & g
“””””…..
Andrew Burnette
May 3, 2017 at 3:00 pm
Andy May, You have nothing to apologize for. george e. smith lost his marbles over nothing. …..”””””
Well Andrew I did click on that link ( ….. here …..).
And it took me to NO citation of any kind. Somebody’s facebook page maybe but with nothing readable on it.
So I still don’t know exactly what it is that the parallel universe ‘ a George smith ‘ wrote.
Nor do I care.
G
Sorry George. I did include a link to the other George Smith’s comment. I don’t know him either, but that was the name he used. I didn’t think he was you.
George, I just checked the link at the top of the post to the comment, it works fine for me. Give it a try, I doubt it is userid sensitive.
Andy, Prof Richard Lindzen is one of those realist climate scientists I would like to meet some day. And (Willie ) Wei Hock Soon, I have had the distinct pleasure of exchanging several informative e-mails with (eons ago, when he and Sally Baliunas were regular subjects on Tech Central Station (I think that was it). Willie’s book on the Maunder Minimum and the sun-earth connection is one of the books I take to bed with me.
And TCS was also the place I first exchanged notes with Dr. Roy Spencer; as I recall, a ditty about a “climate cocktail party” with 2500 guests, and everybody trying to get to talk to Dr. Roy, or John Christy, but they were blocked (in 3-D) by 13 concentric spheres of other guests, So Dr. Roy was not even aware that Christy was present.
Of course it was my conjured up way of pointing out that one atmospheric CO2 molecule was on average 13 molecular layers away from its nearest neighbor CO2 molecule on average, so there was no conceivable way they could in any way gang up on us in a combined effort. They have to act alone as isolated molecules. unaware that there is another of their species out there somewhere.
So there’s no way I would slam any of those scientists, but someone might have posted as me saying the CAGW worry warts are dissing folks like that, and not citing any credible evidence.
I don’t do any sort of social networking, or belong to any such network. I am a paid up member of OSA, and SPIE, both Optical Science societies; OSA being a part of the AIP.
Other than that, I have eaten all of the breadcrumbs behind me so that as far as I know it is impossible to trace me back to anyone real.
I think I once went through 30 some odd pages of google references to George E. Smith, and eventually found me at my alma mater.
On the way, I found my hero GES who was a Pearl Harbor survivor from the Battleship Oklahoma, that was sunk, and he swam through burning oil to Ford Island, suffering incredible burns; but he lived to a ripe old age.
My skin is thick too, because I once burned all of it off both arms, trying to win the Darwin Award, when I was in Grade school.
So no harm, no foul; I don’t mind the flak, it often means I’m over the target.
G-eorge
Andy May, You have nothing to apologize for. george e. smith lost his marbles over nothing. He could have easily clicked the link you provided and seen that the George Smith you so thoughtfully wrote about is probably a sham Facebook account.
So for Andrew Burnette: A “quote” attributed to me; by Andy May elicited these assaults here at WUWT, by persons who don’t even know me; And in your view, I should just let it ride without complaint.
“”””””…..
Peter Morris
May 3, 2017 at 1:09 pm
It’s more than disgusting, it’s lazy and dishonest. It should immediately disqualify one from even being acknowledged as an adult in the room.
Of course, there’s always the Jon Stewart defense, in which claiming to be a stand-up philosopher shields one from all criticism because “Hey, I was only joking around.”
Reply
Greg
May 3, 2017 at 2:49 pm
“
Doing google searches for a phrase like “Lindzen debunked” and then picking out headlines that agree with your preconceived ideas and posting them without checking them is disgusting. Just my opinion.
No, you are wrong, it is not just your opinion 😉 …… “”””
Well in your dreams Andrew.
People start calling me names over something I didn’t say; I’m going to take umbrage at that
G
George, if andy attributes anything said here at wuwt to a “george smith”, then we would/should all assume that it was you that he meant. (after all, you’ve been posting here like FOREVER) Wasn’t andy’s intent, as he said a few comments above this one, but your complaint is most certainly reasonable…
Holy Moly. That was embarrassing. Does anybody know if that was OUR ‘george e. smith’ or is somebody punking him?
FYI: The website was Facebook. If you’re not a member, Facebook requires you to register/sign in. It happens. People keep linking to websites that require membership or a subscription to view an article. (WSJ comes to mind.) Annoying. ‘George Smith’ was obviously a different George Smith, and nobody here gave you a thought … until you started this … whatever this was.
Oh. And here is the comment from Facebook, if you’re still interested (and if I do this right) …
He doesn’t even spell very well.
Thanks teaparty.
george e. smith:
You say
Hmmmm.
For somebody who does not care you have written many words in a lot of posts which contain much ranting.
Perhaps you would benefit from you making an apology for your misunderstanding?
Richard
Richard, george has at least as much seniority here at the wuwt comment page as you do. What would you be thinking if andy had attributed what was said not to a “george smith” but, rather, to a “richard courtney”?
afonzarelli … “attributed?” Andy May did not make up the name … and he linked directly to the comment and the commenter’s name. It’s not Andy May’s fault that george e. smith is not a member of Facebook and that he couldn’t see the comment.
This is one big screw up … and not by Andy May. I’m assuming that george e. smith is going to wake up in the morning and realize he had a temporary “brain malfunction” … and will apologize to Andy May. I hope.
afonzarelli:
You say to me
Your point about “seniority” could be debated but I choose to ignore it because it has no relevance: the issues would be the same if a person had never made a comment on WUWT.
When people – usually trolls – claim stuff on the web was about me then I am “thinking” I need to state that the person mentioned was not me. Indeed, that is what I have done on the occasions when such assertions about me have been made on WUWT.
Importantly, my points were that the behaviour of george e. smith indicates he does “care”, and I suggested he may benefit from making an apology for his misunderstanding that the above article from Andy May is a personal attack on him.
Richard
“… the issues would be the same if a person had never made a comment on WUWT.”
Richard, seniority is THE issue here. Think for a moment if the name had been a “richard courtney”. You’ve been around here a long, long time. (you a ROCK STAR!) So if andy had done that, it might have been nice if he’d shown some deference and specified that it was another “richard courtney”. i can’t say whether or not you personally would have expected that, but i think readers here at wuwt, certainly myself, would expect that. (and had it been a problem for you, as it was for george, i think that would certainly have been understandable) It’s no different here in the case of george. He’s no less endearing to long time readers at wuwt than you are. A little deference here would have been appropriate. NOW, that that didn’t happen is certainly no big deal and andy owes no apology. By the same token, george owes no apology for taking umbrage. (kind of a freak thing here really, like walking down the street and getting hit by a meteor… ☺)
Tea Party, me being “the fonz”, i’m not exactly the most articulate person in the world (i think richard got my drift)…
Got a point in amongst all those caps? And not accepting an apology is just arrogant childishness – who exactly do you think you are?
Well, most of what’s printed in the mainstream press is just there to provide a headline to be repeated (the rule of journalism is that most people don’t read beyond the headline, and those that do rarely read beyond the lead). Climategate was ‘debunked’ in multiple headlines. Doesn’t matter what’s real – just what you can get the bobble heads to go around repeating.
Sort of like the 97% ‘consensus’.
The only ‘dubious’ Spencer paper I am aware of was Spencer and Braswell in Remote Sensing 2010, which caused such a kerfuffle the editor resigned.
The only ‘dubious’ Lindzen paper I am aware of was Lindzen and Choi (revised) 2011.
Both reported observational sensitivity below 1. Both have suspect time lag assumptions about cloud feedback. Neither comports with several more recent observational ECS estimates such as Otto 2013 or Lewis and Curry 2014.
“Neither comports with several more recent observational ECS estimates such as Otto 2013 or Lewis and Curry 2014.”
Otto 2013, Lewis and Curry 2014 and most other observation studies assume ALL the HadCRUT warming is AGW. Do you disagree with Andy’s post above in part,”There is a secular warming trend that has persisted since the end of the Little Ice Age…” or do you agree if even half the warming since 1850 is natural then observational studies need to be chopped in half? If so, wouldn’t that put them directly in line with Lindzen and Choi?
BTW, I believe HadCRUT makes zero adjustment for UHI and cooled the past significantly with changing assumptions about SST measurement methods. Where am I going wrong?
IF Drs Lindzen, Soon, Christy and Spencer (+) had ever actually been “debunked” then, I think, their own personal integrity and desire to understand would welcome the corrections. They are genuine scientist. They would not continue to endorse or promote “what they got wrong”.
Climate Seancetist such as Mann (et al) on the other hand….
Shazaaam !!!
G
There’s a typo in the first sentence; “complemented” shoud be “complimented”
[Updated, thank you. .mod]
Good review of what passes for commentary by the green blob.
On figure 1, why did you plot Marcott’s temperatures and Liu’s model predictions on a different scale? It makes it difficult to compare the two graphs.
I was more concerned that all the curves could be seen well. The first version of the graph had all the curves at different levels, but it was too tall and not friendly for internet display.
“Dr. Spencer is an evangelical Christian, but in the United States we are not supposed to discriminate based on religion, one is free to have their own beliefs.”
I don’t understand why this mentioned. Did Nutella or someone make a comment about it?
Latitude, Roy has been criticized for supporting intelligent design as ‘scientific’. That ‘scientific’ support is why Beisner’s Cornwll Alliance gave Roy a special award at last year’s Heartland conference.
ID isn’t scientific. It is creationism dressed up in fancy misunderstandings. See my example discussing the ‘Irreducible complexity’ of the eye in ebook The Arts of Truth. The eye evolved. Three separate times. And if God is an intelligent desiner, whyndidmhe give cephalopods the best eye design?
Spencer supporting ID has nothing to do with his excellent physics work on the UAH temp product. But it can and has been used to question his larger scientific judgement. Hence Andy May’s comment.
I suspect that more than one of those who figured out and engineered and built the Saturn rocket that sent the first man to the Moon were Christians who believed what is now called “ID”. Maybe a few of other “Faiths” and even agnostics could be thrown in. ( https://youtu.be/V5EPymcWp-g )
What mattered, as far as “science” is concerned, is not what they believed about how the Moon got there but how honest and accurate they were with dealing with the observable facts.
sent the first man to the Moon were Christians
=======
the Founding Fathers definitely believed in ID. Does that mean the US Constitution is debunked?
For perspective on the Spencer smear jobs, it’s good to bear in mind that e.g. Newton was deeply religious and saw God as the master Creator. Not only that, he was a convinced practitioner of alchemy. [Based on evidence, Spencer’s sideline is high level photography].
Crucially, neither one of those “non-scientific” persuasions prevented Newton from providing mankind with some of the most insightful and pertinent science of the past 500 years. And there is no evidence that whatever Roy Spencer believes in, has any bearing on his work as a bona fides atmospheric scientist.
In that sense, both gentlemen fundamentally and very positively differ from the many ideologically motivated scientivists, who continue to provide us with their environmentalist religion served up as [pseudo] climate science.
Thanks Rud. Latitude: In the interest of making the post brief, I did not include references or links to all the criticism of Dr. Spencer, Dr. Soon and Dr. Lindzen that I saw. But, there are several critical posts in the blogosphere that make a big deal about Dr. Spencer’s religious beliefs. Some idiot Senator (I forgot which one) even brought it up when he testified to the Senate. To me, it’s totally irrelevant. His excellent scientific and engineering work stands on its own, nothing to do with his religion.
ferdberple, according to most liberals, it does.
Any time you want to know what ID is about go to their website to investigate for yourself. But here’s a
“heads up”, when a critic equates ID with creationism you can be sure that they are ignorant of the facts
or our deliberately trying to mislead you. Quite often its deliberate ignorance because they can’t accept
the the implication of ID as opposed to science of it.
Lal, nope. I understand ID’s arguements completely. And they are wrong. Wrote it up simply in The Arts of Truth. The long version is a highly recommended book, Parker’s In th Blink of an Eye (2003). The creationist mistake is in the definition of evolutionary fitness. Fitness is always in the context of ‘at the time’. The eye is only irreducibly complex if you assume the whole thing had to emerge at once with present functionality as we now know it, whichnwould require an intelligent designer. That misunderstands the essence of evolution.
In fact, the eye evolved three times in three different ways, but interestingly all at about the same time driven by the ‘arms race’ just after the Cambrian explosion (of animal species). 1. Arthropods (insects, now extinct trilobites, and crustaceans) have compound eyes. Vertibrates have eyes with cones and rods behind the retina (and its blood supply), which is why humans are prone to macular degeneration. Cephalopods (squid, octopi) have rods and cones in front of the retina facing the lens, making them more robust and more sensitive. All three eye types sense light using the molecular descendents of the opsin proteins found in planarium flatworm ‘eyespots’ regulating planarian circadian rhythms. A nice example of evolutionary conservation (one of many involving the eye, such as the misnamed eyeless gene).
Several of Nutella’s fellow travelers have over the years used Spencer’s religion to smear him – tar and feathers insinuating that his faith makes his [demonstrably bona fides] science suspect.
I will be getting my ordination from ULC shortly and therefore the correct title will be The Reverend Badger. Perhaps we can get a bulk discount and all take the title, that should confuse them.
Everytime an article like this one appears. I feel sick to the stomach and again I wonder what can be done about these ‘situations’. To me there is a three pronged attack, first these ‘warmers’ should be castigated to their faces wherever they are, that they are liars and document the process.
Secondly improve the education of our children with (English, maths, science, history, logic and politics) and finally do nothing, why? because the solution is occurring albeit slowly and unrelenting and that is the emergence of MSR which can provide unlimited power using the right type of reactor.
Two of these attacks are basically occurring, but the education of our children, remains the weak link.
Regards
Climate Heretic
PS /endrant. Got it off my chest. Going to have my morning coffee.
Like you I initially was attracted to the idea of Molten Salt Reactors however the chemical soup has many many reactions going on with something like about 80 compounds which are not desirable from the point of engineering the containment,pipework,pumps,etc. Change any parameter even slightly and the composition of the soup can become much worse. The theoretical idea of pumping it through a facility to extract the nasties as an ongoing process looks tricky. Scaling up the small scale experimental units is not easy.
Hanging your hopes on Molten “Soup” Reactor may turn out to be a bit of a CLANGER.
It’s all explained in my book “Slaying the Soup Dragon”.
Super critical CO2 in a passively regulated (pebble bed?) reactor might solve most design issues. the lower pressure and temperature of SCCO2 yields better efficiency than pressure water, and the passive design uses thermal expansion to shut down the reactor in case of loss of coolant.
CO2 has so many unrecognized benefits.
Is this true for the simple once through proposals of Thorcon Power and Terrestrial energy?
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Regards
Climate Heretic
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Irrelevant of whether the depiction of Lindsen or Hansens 1988-9 predictions are correct or not I am fascinated by the inability of climate historians and commentators inability to agree on what the climate has done in the past. The inclination for warmist fanatics to rewrite and alter historical data and circumstances to justify their position doesn’t give me much confidence of them being able to predict the future. If you can’t be certain of the past you definitely can’t be certain enough of the future to justify spending trillions of dollars and reducing global GDPs in pursuit of changing a future that no one can be certain is going to occur. Furthermore, are humans so arrogant to think that these sacrifices will actually make a difference. The only difference it will make will be that the diversion of funds from welfare programs to climate fraudsters hurts people now.
The worst word usage in this whole climate science debate is the use of the word “debunked”.
For some reason your comment made me think about the names of racehorses and I suddenly came up with this great idea for us to all club together and buy one and give it a suitable name to promote our cause.
We could then make money to fund our activities by placing bets on whether it gets shot before, during or after the first race.
I will pony up my share of the cash for a race horse…with a few conditions.
One is, that the horse’s mother has to be a mudder.
Well, Mann was debunked.
multiple solar and ocean cycles hit their lows all at once
No cyclomania, please. There is no evidence that any of those ‘cycle’ are the cause of anything. Curve and Cycle fitting are not substitutes for knowledge.
There is plenty of evidence that solar minima cause lower temperatures. Depending upon which dates you choose, the LIA suffered three or four solar minima. The longest and deepest, the Maunder, c. 1645 to 1715, coincides with the coldest decades of the LIA.
Plausible mechanisms explaining this correlation have been proposed.
“There is no evidence that any of those ‘cycle’ are the cause of anything. Curve and Cycle fitting are not substitutes for knowledge.”
Those cycles as the likely cause of climate change are all over the scientific literature, and therefore they constitute knowledge. You are just trying to impose your opinion on others.
So is AGW, and they therefore constitute knowledge…
You are just trying to impose your opinion on others.
No, just trying to make them think instead of being gullible.
Mr Svalgaard,
I notice you didn’t respond to Javier on this part:
“Those cycles as the likely cause of climate change are all over the scientific literature, and therefore they constitute knowledge.”
You know it is there because you quoted the very next sentence:
“You are just trying to impose your opinion on others.”
I agree with Javier, it is published many times now as it is gaining traction, that there are indeed real cycles in play.
That something [like AGW] is all over does not make it true…
Like Lincoln’s dog.
As you said in another comment:
“Scientists should not have to stand to abuse for holding a scientific point of view, whatever it is. Usually it happens when they stand against a strong consensus.”
‘strong consensus’ = all over the scientific literature.
“So is AGW, and they therefore constitute knowledge…”
Of course AGW constitutes knowledge. Incomplete and partially incorrect knowledge also constitutes knowledge. Or do you support the view that Galen of Pergamon did not constitute medical knowledge at the time?
“That something [like AGW] is all over does not make it true…”
Doesn’t make it false either. You are trying to use the “guilt by association” fallacy. AGW and solar-climate cycles hypotheses are unrelated.
“As you said in another comment:
“Scientists should not have to stand to abuse for holding a scientific point of view, whatever it is. Usually it happens when they stand against a strong consensus.”
‘strong consensus’ = all over the scientific literature.”
And I respect your scientific position on this matter (even thinking you are wrong), while the opposite is not true.
Leif,
Goes to the heart of something Willis pointed out here recently:
• Nobody knows why the globe was generally warmer in Roman times
• Nobody knows why the globe generally cooled after Roman times
• Nobody knows why the globe generally warmed up again in Medieval times
• Nobody knows why the globe greatly cooled after Medieval times, leading to the “Little Ice Age” in the 1600s/1700s.
• Nobody knows why the Little Ice Age didn’t descend into a real Ice Age.
• Nobody knows why the earth started generally warming at about 0.5°C per century since the Little Ice Age.
• Nobody knows why this warming continued through the 20th century.
• Nobody knows whether the ~ 0.5°C warming of the 21st century is 100% natural and just a continuance of the warming of previous two centuries, or whether some or all of of the warming is due to humans.
• Nobody knows why there has been a two-decade “hiatus” in the ongoing three centuries of warming.
“Cyclomania” being out – that would include Curry’s “stadium wave” – what’s the driver? Can’t be Roman SUVs.
Instead of sniping at anything/everything you disagree with, why not suggest a credible working hypothesis?
[No disrespect to Willis, I do hold a PhD in a relevant subject matter and am always up for a good scientifically coherent argument]
With nine ‘nobody knows’, credible working hypotheses are hard to come by. I’ll suggest simple stochastic, internal variations, which could even be quasi-cycles for a short time.
Can’t be Roman SUVs
Is not worthy of a “PhD in a relevant subject matter”, and thus places you in a category to be ignored.
Tetris:
I believe that I can offer a credible working hypothesis for all of the points listed in your post:
i have an essay posted on-line “Climate Change Deciphered” (Use the DuckDuckgo search engine and enter the Title), which has been empirically validated multiple times.
It simply states that the control knob for Earth’s climate is the amount of Sulfur Dioxide aerosols present in the atmosphere: reduce them, and it warms up. Increase them. and it cools down.
This has been true for the past 160 years, where the emissions have been largely anthropogenic in nature. However, most large volcanic eruptions eruptions inject sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, causing cooling until the emissions settle out.
All that is needed for the listed time periods is for little volcanic activity during the warm periods, and significant volcanic activity for the colder periods (already proven for the Little Ice Age)
This mechanism has been operating for millions of years, and has undoubtedly led to most, if not all, of our various Ice Ages.
I did google your article Burl, which I read and I also see you wrote a guest essay here back in May 2015. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/05/26/the-role-of-sulfur-dioxide-aerosols-in-climate-change/
But your statement above leads me to believe that your premise for your hypothesis that SO2 is responsible for most ice ages for millions of years, well, is pretty far off the beaten track, if not over the cliff. “This mechanism has been operating for millions of years, and has undoubtedly led to most, if not all, of our various Ice Ages.” Sorry, but after a statement as outlandish as that, I can’t take anything you write seriously.
Ron Williams:
Just a simple extrapolation. If present day large volcanic eruptions cause cooling by injecting dimming Sulfur Dioxide aerosols into the stratosphere, any volcanic eruptions in the distant past would have had the same effect.
Volcanic activity in the past was far greater than now (consider the Deccan and Siberian traps, for example), so sufficient cooling to trigger an Ice Age is really unavoidable.
I find myself in partial sympathy with the point raised by Leif, and correct to point the caveat out.
But then again, in ancient times, people knew that there were tides, that tides were a cyclical event and could be predicted with certainty even though they had no comprehension of why and how they occurred. They did not know or understand the driver behind tides, but this did not prevent the observation of what appears to be a cyclical event from being useful and one that could be used as a predictor of things to come.
The bottom line is that we only have a sketchy handle on the past, and do not well know or understand the processes involved in driving change. we have a lot of learning and understanding to do before we are in a position to reasonably predict the future.
Richard Verney:
Climate is really quite predictable, if the correct parameters are considered. If you have not done so, search for “Climate Change Deciphered” on DuckDuckgo.
“• Nobody knows why the globe…” Which leads me to believe it my take hundreds of years of date collection before climate change is understood. What we do know is there ain’t no “Hot Spot” and without water, water vapor and cloud formation our landscape would look like the Moon’s.
Burl Henry May 4, 2017 at 5:38 am
If you had stated Burl, that the climate swings since 1850 to date were caused by natural and forced SO2, then I perhaps would have taken a keen interest in digging deeper into this. After all, you haven’t discovered anything new here with global dimming/brightening. Aerosol cooling is fairly well established, although my understanding is that it is a short lived phenomena after a major vulcanism event. If accreting from human sources, then might be a very small influence in the background over time, but probably not a driver of climate unless we had multiple vulcanism events that occurred on a much higher frequency. We already have a global consensus that CO2 is that new ‘control knob’ on weather/climate, so probably best if we unwrap that one before tackling your hypothesis.
What I take issue with is that you claim this has been the cause of most of the ice ages on earth. If you think your hypothesis for SO2 causing ice ages is better than well established century old theories on orbital forcing doing so, then I think you are a bit off your rocker. And I think most here would probably agree with that, as the comments from your guest essay here at WUWT a few years ago already point out.
Ron Williams:
You said “If you had stated Burl, that the climate swings since 1850 to date were caused by natural and forced SO2, then I perhaps would have taken a keen interest in digging deeper
into this”
But Ron, this is exactly what I had said. “Natural” decreases in tropospheric SO2 levels associated with business recessions, cause temperatures to temporarily increase. And “forced” decreases due to environmental concerns also cause temperatures to increase. These increases, however, are NOT temporary, although they can be temporarily off-set by net increases in global anthropogenic SO2 aerosol emissions, La Ninas, or a large volcanic eruption.
And here, the IPCC diagram of radiative is in error, since it has no component for warming due to the REMOVAL of cooling SO2 aerosols from the atmosphere (which peaked at approx. 131 Megatonnes in 1972-74). The expected warming from their reduction due to clean air efforts precisely matches the rise in average global temperatures 1975-2011, leaving NO possibility for any warming due to CO2, in spite of the global “consensus”.
And rather than CO2 being the “control knob on weather/climate”, I have shown that the control knob is actually SO2. Recognition of this fact can halt, or even reverse, climate change at very little expense. Failure to do so will subject the Earth to ever-increasing temperatures.
And, yes, I do believe that SO2 is most probably the cause of our Ice Ages. To believe otherwise would require that earlier massive volcanic eruptions would have injected no dimming SO2 aerosols into the stratosphere (where they can take years to settle out). Multiple eruptions, from the same or other volcanoes would quickly result in areas of un-melted snow that would change the albedo of the earth, and accelerate cooling (the Deccan eruptions reportedly lasted for 500,000 years).
Far from being “off my rocker”, those who believe in “well established century old “theories” of orbital forcing” causing Ice Ages are the ones who are misguided. The massive effects of volcanic eruption cooling simply cannot be ignored.
My SO2 theory has been empirically tested and validated. What more, in your mind, is needed for its acceptance?
One further comment: I have established that all El Ninos 1850 – 1970 have been associated with business recessions (that is, reduced SO2 levels). Since about 1970, there have been some which are not associated with a recession, but are caused by
intentional reductions in SO2 levels. All, therefore, are man made.
It was Willis who lined up the nine “nobody knows”, not me – I merely thought them interesting because he’s largely right.
I duly note that Leif’s engrained ivory tower arrogance is still present in full splendor – twinned with no sense of humour. The PhD is in an eminently CAGW/CACC relevant subject matter, backed up by some 25 years of science and technology related due diligence – something that teaches you to recognize Leifian “no cyclomania” type hand waving for what it is. Likewise to be ignored until Dr Svalgaard comes up with a constructive contribution.
It is well known that the Milankovitch ‘Cycles’ are caused by the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn as well as Sun/Moon cycles over vast time scales. Why the mania about cycles, as I have heard you repeat here several times. Honest question? It is these orbital cycles that are causing long term climate fluctuation with our current interglacial in a glacial period.
In Dr Christy’s Fig 2, one of the CIMP5 model runs (just one!) seems to follow the observed temperatures reasonably well. Its hard to read the legend, but which model run is it, and what are its parameters?
Dave R: I believe it i the /Russian one.
It’s obvious the Russian model hacks the climate to support President Trump’s position on the Paris Climate Accord. Russian/Trump collusion has been ongoing, and bends U.S. policy to Putin’s will.
Trust me; I know Susan Rice.
Ron Clutz tells more about a model that fits: https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/temperatures-according-to-climate-models/ . His findings are interesting.
An excerpt:
” Above, I showed how one CMIP5 model produced historical temperature trends closely comparable to HADCRUT4. That same model, INMCM4, was also closest to Berkeley Earth and RSS series.
Curious about what makes this model different from the others, I consulted several comparative surveys of CMIP5 models. There appear to be 3 features of INMCM4 that differentiate it from the others.
1.INMCM4 has the lowest CO2 forcing response at 4.1K for 4XCO2. That is 37% lower than multi-model mean.
2.INMCM4 has by far the highest climate system inertia: Deep ocean heat capacity in INMCM4 is 317 W yr m^-2 K^-1, 200% of the mean (which excluded INMCM4 because it was such an outlier)
3.INMCM4 exactly matches observed atmospheric H2O content in lower troposphere (215 hPa), and is biased low above that. Most others are biased high.
So the model that most closely reproduces the temperature history has high inertia from ocean heat capacities, low forcing from CO2 and less water for feedback. Why aren’t the other models built like this one?”
Wim: +10!
So let me understand this – the IPCC model run with parameters way outside “normal” ranges – which resulted in it being excluded as an outlier in some cases – is the only run that most closely matches observed data?
What does that say about the parameters used for the other 101 model runs? Or for the averages of those parameters?
“What does that say about the parameters used for the other 101 model runs? Or for the averages of those parameters?”
WR: What would be expected is that the other models would be adapted. But a lesser role for CO2 and H2O feedback and a much more important role for the oceans is probably meeting ‘principal problems’.
Like ‘money’?
If other principal problems exist, I would like to know which ones.
So this run, with low CO2 feedback, low H2O feedback, and higher (2x) ocean effect are the comparable model parameters. Isnt that the basis of the debate about why most of the IPCC models are off track?
Why not back calculate forcings from this model run, which seems to be fairly close to real world data in the first place?
In a Facebook debate once, an old School Friend (I’m 52) argued that Prof. Lindzen could not be given any credibility because he is a Christian and therefore unable to understand or accept or “do” Science.
I gave up trying to convince this B grade intellect what Science actually is. He was a very average intellect at school, and nothing has changed. Yet such people are allowed to vote. That disturbs me.
“argued that Prof. Lindzen could not be given any credibility because he is a Christian . . . .”
He must have meant Spencer or Christie.
Then again, he might have meant Canadian born US “educated” evangelist Katherine Hayhoe. Oh, wait … that can’t be right ‘cuz Hayhoe, not unlike the Pope, faithfully adheres to the tenets of the climatically correct “bible” 😉
In their minds, Science has become a Religion and it is a jealous one. They follow their high priests, accept the dogma, and never question the appeals to authority. The precautionary principle, neo-Malthusian ideas (without actually reading Malthus), and self-loathing of western culture and accomplishments are their guidestars.
The rational methods and procedures that used to refer to science probably need a new name.
Lindzen is Jewish. I know because I spent a day with him reviewing the climate chapter of The Arts of Truth. We chatted about his impending retirement over lunch at the faculty club.
DeSmog is a joke but i have noticed that if i ignore all the insults and sneers and argue strictly along the terms of the scientific method the trolls run away.
I started a couple of days ago and all that I have had is sneers and insults. When I hold firm and insist that they state a hypothesis and define falsification criteria etc they get very upset and call me a troll.
The trick is not to let them divert the debate onto some random sea ice measurement etc. Just start at the basics and they cannot get past first base.
It shows how lame science teaching has become.
https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/04/27/another-leading-climate-scientist-cancels-new-york-times-over-hrting-climate-denialist-bret-stephens#comment-3283254727
LewSkannen – I agree entirely. I’ve had quite a number of exchanges with ‘believers’ in the letter pages of local newpapers, and they never produce any figures or references to back up their comments in response to mine – nor do they never take any notice of the points made, simply repeating their belief in ‘the science’.
Whoops – I meant say ‘nor do they ever’ – my apologies!
Claiming falsely that someone has been debunked is character assassination and thus libel. It is high time someone takes one of these liars to court. If it is good enough for Michael Mann to go to court over reputation attack, it is good enough for us. A successful attack might just make the lefties think twice, not they are actually capable of original thought.
For too long the left have been getting away with idle smears on reputations-it is time someone stands up to them and give them a taste of their own medicine. It might make them think twice before engaging in character assassination.