Via email from Dr. Roy Spencer:
Shots fired at Christy/Spencer building
FYI, apparently sometime after a March for Science went past our building at UAH, 7 shots were fired and hit the floor John Christy is on. (I’m in a different part of the same building). No witnesses. I’m assuming late night Saturday or Sunday.
It seems pretty obvious this was a message being sent. If fired from a pistol, all shots hitting the same floor seems to suggest deliberate aim.
I doubt any media have covered it yet. I doubt the police have even written a report yet. From what I’ve heard, it sounds like the police believe the shots were fired from a passing car, and some shell casings were recovered, as well as fragments of bullets inside the building. You can quote me.
The office of the state climatologist (Dr. John Christy) is in building 7
We’ll update as this story develops.
UPDATE1: Dr. Spencer writes on his blog:
A total of seven shots were fired into our National Space Science and Technology Center (NSSTC) building here at UAH over the weekend.
All bullets hit the 4th floor, which is where John Christy’s office is (my office is in another part of the building).
Given that this was Earth Day weekend, with a March for Science passing right past our building on Saturday afternoon, I think this is more than coincidence. When some people cannot argue facts, they resort to violence to get their way. It doesn’t matter that we don’t “deny global warming”; the fact we disagree with its seriousness and the level of human involvment in warming is enough to send some radicals into a tizzy.
Our street is fairly quiet, so I doubt the shots were fired during Saturday’s march here. It was probably late night Saturday or Sunday for the shooter to have a chance of being unnoticed.
Maybe the “March For Science” should have been called the “March To Silence”.
UPDATE2: Dr. Spencer writes via email:
Local news reports that UAH police have classified this as a “random shooting”. So, the seven Belgian 5.7 millimeter bullets which hit windows and bricks around John Christy’s office from 70 yards away were apparently deemed to be “random” occurrence. (Despite my personal defense training, I probably would have struggled to get that tight a “random” cluster with a semi-automatic pistol.) News story:Nothing to see here, move along.
Marc Morano notes:
Imagine if there had been a big skeptics March near Penn State and Michael Mann’s offices had similar type “random” shooting. Would the media and Mann have said nothing to see here?
Could it be the peaceful, tolerant and respectful left?
Why anyone would be associated with that political party is beyond me…….
The police must be in on it.
Only those officers with the required “Lightning Bolt” SS lapel pins
Hm.
Facts:
1. The campus police (which is the only agency on the job, so far as we know) are under the control of UAH administrators.
2.
(Source: http://www.uah.edu/registrar/commencement )
Not “in on it,” but, motivated to downplay it.
Steven, has it really come to pass that you no longer have anything intelligent to say?
There is a vast amount of possible reasons behind that shooting.
I think we should leave speculations to climate scientists.
I can’t think of even a single ” justifiable reason.”
You don’t need a PhD in Planetary Science to know that a projectile fired upwards in an elliptical orbit, at less than escape velocity, will eventually intercept something solid long before it ever reaches perigee on the other side of the earth’s center. And even an idiot, would probably stop well before trying it seven times.
This kind of intimidation; of respectable Scientists who try to give us a realistic source of data on some climate aspect or other, is cause to regard the zealots, as the scumbags they truly are.
Hard for me to understand why Alabama Police would not be a bit more responsive. Somebody could easily have been hurt or killed.
G
Still, we don´t know.
Inductivism is one of the things to criticize with the proponents of the anthropogenic warming theory, I just think we shouldn´t turn to inductivism.
inductivism??…………bullcrap….7 shots in the same place is aimed
There is no doubt about that.
What we don´t know is if the shots was intended to scare Spencer and Christy.
What level of confidence would you assign to your assumption? IPCC has developed a guidance note that might be helpful to assign a level of confidence.
Guidance Note for Lead Authors of the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report on
Consistent Treatment of Uncertainties
Science or Fiction
April 24, 2017 at 1:37 pm and at 12:59 pm
RE: “What we don´t know is if the shots was intended to scare Spencer and Christy.”
1. Terrorists are not likely to consult the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report to improve their 7 shot groupings.
2. If someone lobbed 7 shots through your window, from inductive reasoning and with an appropriate confidence interval , would you be scared?
heh- well,there ya go.
facts not in evidence will be karlized to fit the narrative – no matter which tribe.
this is because somebody who belongs to a tribe is not in possession of himself.
the typical tribal drone is there because his own vast ignorance terrifies him and he craves affirmation.
so he’s easy prey for anybody who will tell him what to say, think, do.
blaspheme his tribal identity and for him it is an existential threat.
note what happened when i commented on kellyanne’s stupid ‘alternative facts’ that has become a seriously great meme for mockery. (and note that kellyanne is no longer the mouth on the talk circuit cuz of it – i.e., i was right and the hooting monkeys were blind to the obvious because they don’t dare risk disapproval – it would shatter their unstable and fragile self esteem – and they don’t have safe spaces and comfort puppies)
so yeah- this is not the place to argue reason. there are not many on the planet who can manage it and in a political arena, rationality is exceedingly sparse.
come on, then, flying monkeys- i disapproved first and i hope nobody likes it. deal.
Science or fiction, what the hell kind of chart is that? That chart is as stupid as the movie, “50 Shades of Gray”. Can you imagine parents going through a discussion of evidence versus confidence when the car keys AND the resident teen are AWOL? “Why my dear, it is just a random occurrence that both the care and the teen are gone and it is 2:00 AM.” And the idiot guy is just fine, in fact of marrying quality, though he has an arsenal of objects of torture in an upstairs room. Get real.
I agree that the chart is stupid. I was sarcastic. I don´t think the chart should be used within science. That is the chart applied by United Nations climate panel IPCC to express the confidence in their findings.
Science Fiction-So, but you don’t think there is a vast amount of reasons the climate warms and cools. Interesting. I’ll remember your ironic name and know not to waste time or logic on you. I can see detective work (which good science is) is beyond your Ken. All the 10s of thousands of firearm deaths on the streets of America have a vast number of explanations – this, in your mind makes murder a diminishingly small reason for any of them. It’s hard for a police force to ferret put those improbable murderers in your world. Defending this is shameful and stupid.
Science Fiction-So, but you don’t think there is a vast amount of reasons the climate warms and cools.
I actually do think there might be a significant number of reasons (natural variability) why the climate warms and cools. And I think IPCC should have done a better detective work.
I´m not defending the shooting. I just don´t know enough about it to conclude that it was eco terrorism aimed at Spencer and Christy.
Parabolic orbit.
I understand the joke Science, but in all reality this was an attack. It’s not pure coincidence that 7 bullets just happened to show up unannounced in Doctors Spencer and Christy’s office. As they say, “once is happenstance, twice is circumstance, three times is enemy action”. This is clearly enemy action.
I don’t want to sound superficial; I know you were making light of it, but it is worrisome. Bullets are nothing to casually ignore; Spencer an Christy are obviously at risk from radical eco-terrorists.
I wish I could offer more than condolences and my support. I appreciate their efforts but I never had any idea a simple scientific debate might lead to gunfire. It’s appalling.
I agree that there is a risk for eco terrorism, that Spencer and Christy are potential targets, and I agree that this might have been eco terrorism.
jorgekafkazar
April 24, 2017 at 6:51 pm Edit
> Parabolic orbit.
Only if the Earth is flat.
Think of it in terms of odds. On that particular day, someone fired rounds at the particular building, hitting an area around that particular office. So, yes, probably meant to make someone nervous, but that round at 70 yards ought to produce a pattern you can cover with a tuna can if the shooting were really aimed.
Duster: Depends entirely on the skill level of the shooter and how much time the shooter had to get the rounds off.
It’s not a parabolic orbit unless the apogee speed is equal to the escape velocity, around 25,000 MPH. That would be some gun.
The orbit is elliptical.
G
yeah…like didn’t know it was loaded 7 times….and all hit the same floor
…get real
Latitude:
Exacto mondo. This could not have been an accident. To be very honest, I’d have a hard time hitting the same floor of a building at that distance; it was obviously aimed fire.
“Could it be the peaceful, tolerant and respectful (and anti-gun) left?” The left is really hypocritical, not to mention, seriously deranged and apparently dangerous too.
It was ten hours after the damn march, genius. No one was even IN THE OFFICE. LMAO!! The ass probably shot the window himself. Losers.
[???? .mod]
REPLY to mod. – She is suggesting that Roy or John is the one who shot out the window, you see. (I withhold further comment.) ~ Evan
There were meteorologists staffing the NWS offices there 24×7, though they may not have noticed the shots.
Why are you laughing your ass off? Property damage at universities is okay? Mind if someone perforates your home? Let us know when you’ll be out and which windows you want to replace.
Oh, I know; Roy, craving additional notoriety, and being an excellent marksman with a pistol, shot up his own building…
The “moon landing was faked” is far more probable.
How do you know that no one was “in the office”?
I would definitely keep this IP address on file…
Another tolerant liberal heard from.
Carolyn, im not sure. Are you suggesting that Spencer and Christy are credible suspects?
carolyn p, I have an inquisitive mind, so many questions occur to me. Reading your comment I noticed the certainty of your declamations. I really would like to understand how it comes to pas that you know the time of the weapons fire and seem certain that the office was empty. Could you please enlighten us all?
I suspect more of this will come as the rhetoric ramps up. Its going to get worse after the comments about guns as posted in the other article.
The Earth Firsters have been committing terroristic acts that have the potential to kill people for years.
And the anti-technology Enviro-Luddite UNABOMBER:
Chimp, you left out “MK Ultra test subject”. I don’t know if it was a factor in his later mindset or what they did to him but it is interesting.
We can only hope that the family or others around this shooter have the grace and courage of Mr. K’s family and turn them in.
TRM,
Other events in his life could just as well have molded his mind, along with probable autism. People and buildings scared him. He was held in isolation in a hospital aged six months for eight months. His high IQ led to his skipping the sixth grade, which he himself felt affected him negatively, due to not fitting in and being bullied. Murray’s psychological “experiment” at Harvard couldn’t have helped, however.
Yet he managed to do well in grad school, in part because of his focus, producing a highly regarded PhD thesis. But at Berkeley, he was found unable to teach undergrads. That’s when he retired from society, aged 26.
“Its going to get worse after the comments about guns as posted in the other article.”
And of course, this will serve a dual purpose. It will not only serve to terrorize the victims, it will be used to disarm the people who would defend them. It works on so many levels.
These people are frightening not just because they’re willing to use violence, but because they’re intent on the total domination of our once free society.
The FN Five-seven is particularly hated by gun control supporters too. I’m suspicious that it was particularly chosen because of that. the round is very lethal and certain military version of the ammo is armorial piercing as well.
Thanks Paul, I appreciate the support.
I have been wondering when the ill-informed radical left nutters would do something like this. For them they truly believe they are saving the planet and sceptics must be stopped at all costs.
pbweather. You may be right. But don’t underestimate the perfidy and chicanery of the leftists. With their Marxist outlook, everything is war. Occupy Wall Street sprung up to defeat Romney in 2012 and it worked. The Occupy movement rapidly disappeared after Obama was elected. In the 2016 election, the left came up with Black Lives Matter (BLM). This time it didn’t work and Mr. Trump was elected President. Black Lives Matter is fading rapidly.
However, even if the BLM didn’t work and the election is over for now, the war must go on. Perhaps, it is time to make war against the climate “deniers”. Way past time for better, and unbiased, law enforcement.
“Way past time for better, and unbiased, law enforcement”
+ too many to count. Exactly right. When our law enforcement fails to prosecute this sort of aggression, our entire society runs a real risk of outright civil war. I can’t help but believe that is their intention and that’s truly scary.
It is really the Progressives. I had a Trump sign in my front picture window, and minutes after the election was called for Trump, someone came down the street and threw a rock through it ($700.00+). I was changing my sister-in-law who suffers from advanced Huntington’s Disease in front of it, and if it wouldn’t have been for my big “FREEDOM NOT OBAMANATION SIGN” backing up my Trump for President sign, it would have hit her or me. Look at the riots at Berkley to stop the free speech of people the Progressives don’t like. I read that they were considering carrying guns to the next riot, since their rocks, bottles, brass knuckles, and baseball bats weren’t effective enough.
The fact that many of them are now covering their faces is significant.
I believe this is evidence there is a militant faction in force. If we treat them like criminals *now* we should be able to avoid open armed conflict, but we can’t wait for it to get worse, because it will get worse.
We need to nip this in the bud if we still can and we’ll need the ful support of law enforcement. Trump’s proposal, that we engage the National Guard, is a good one. We can’t afford to let this escalate.
It’s no longer a preemptive action; it’s now a response to a military attack on the United States of America and needs to be dealt with in those terms.
All of leftism’s moral arguments end with “…at all costs.” and if you think about it, there’s nothing left to argue. It’s deal-breaker stuff, cuz a conservative or libertarian first response is “but at what cost?”
But to go after John Christy, man there are few his equal. Maybe that was the point. This is really awful.
The Church of Climate Change is a religion of peace.
…unless reality or science crosses them.
Or common sense.
Auto
The preferred method of winning a scientific discourse by leftists – kill the opposition
and you kill their arguments. And the leftists would be howling bloody murder if someone was dumb enough to take a pot shot at Al Gore, and demanding gun control at the same time.
A harpoon in Al’s case.
The left truly believe that “The End Justifies The Means” ! No matter what !
The perp is not only a loser, he’s a skulking coward. You can quote me.
With recovered cartridge cases, there’s a decent chance weapon and shooter will be identified, if local law enforcement officials are sufficiently motivated. I would think this might warrant FBI involvement as well.
Consider yourself quoted
Should definitely qualify as a Hate Crime
I suspect that UAH is a State Government property, and also probably has Federal Government business taking place on campus.
So If the FBI is NOT already engaged, it truly would seem to be time for the Trump Administration to say sayonara to some of those leftovers from the Obama years. The FBI top boss seems to be acting as the Top Idiot of the Bunch.
G
recovered cartridge cases => possible fingerprint evidence. So if the perp’s fingerprints are on file, or ha can be identified by other means, GOTCHA!
Quotation cited. Now we’re all in this together!
@hanelyp
Unfortunately the heat of firing burns off the oils that leave fingerprints, it’s not possible normally to get prints from fired cases. If there’s any unfired ones, from say clearing a malfunction then maybe.
5.7×28 and the weapons that fire it are not cheap. Who knows what that means, but it means something.
The FBI, at least under Obama doesn’t care. You can quote me on that.
brians356 April 24, 2017 at 11:21 am
With recovered cartridge cases, there’s a decent chance weapon and shooter will be identified, if local law enforcement officials are sufficiently motivated.
How do you think they’ll do that? In Alabama permits are not required to purchase guns, they aren’t required to be registered and no owner license is required.
In fact I believe that today the Alabama state senate is debating a bill to do away with the requirement to have a permit for concealed carry.
and fairly well off not a starving grad student. Also hard of hearing today if he or she fired that weapon inside a car.
from the grassy knoll…
Be careful sir. This nation has lost its mind.
No, only part of the population.
Hope your current residence is at an undisclosed location, if not a bunker.
With ferocious watchdog Kenji as your alarm system, all should be well.
Anthony Watts
April 24, 2017 at 10:33 am
Only for those who strongly believe and are convinced above any reason that abusing the power of the constitution is a must do and an acceptable “game” to achieve the and means of clinging to an illusive power……
Not even a part of population, just a stupid and anarchic minority, trying to trigger a kinda of “modern time lynching” and silencing of their assumed opponents….TOO barbaric and very old and out of date fashion….
What do you expect when “highly” assumed estimated personalities engage and do the same in front of a congressional committee, like in the Mannies case….
No much difference there in principle…
cheers
Apparently just those that live in Large Population Centers (The Hillary Voters)
The bunkers are in on it too, especially the central bunkers. And the puliticians and the untelligence ugencies!
END THE FUD
96% of Red county Red voters, in a recent survey (very recent) reported being very happy with their vote.
G
I saw that, WaPo even!
People who believe they possess absolute moral truth are extremely dangerous. There are hundreds of millions of dead in mass graves throughout history to prove it.
“Secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy and censorship. When any government or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, “This you may not read, this you must not know,” the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man who has been hoodwinked in this fashion; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, whose mind is free. No, not the rack nor the atomic bomb, not anything. You can’t conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.” Robert A. Heinlein
DD More, here, I’ll correct that third sentence for you, it should read “When science or any government or church for that matter, . . . ”
There fixed it for yah
Lewis, Chesterton, Orwell. They all foreasaw exactly what is happening. Too bad they weren’t climate scientists.
Ahhh yes, the Myth of the Robber Barons. There’s even a book with that title by Burton W. Folsom, Jr.
Jim
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
– Voltaire
“A witty saying proves nothing.”
– Voltaire
But a dimly witted statement indicates much
“And what of a half wit? Do his buttocks share the same proportions?”
Someone with half a buttocks can only move Half Fast
JMac, I always wondered what a half bathroom mentioned in real estate ads was for. Half @55ed perhaps?
people who are taught absolute ideas tend to act in an absolute fashion
Seems shooting is the appropriate remedy to judge a scientific dispute!
..but shouldn’t they resort to Russian Roulette considering their fixation on election collusion?
I would think for such persons playing Russian Roulette for test purposes, seven shots would be about the right number; well if you can make it that far.
I know that seven is the right number of spokes to have on your car wheels, but seven accidental discharges of a dropped high tech semi-automatic, is a reason to go and buy a lottery ticket.
G
That’s actually the case at the Western Cartridge plant where friends of mine work. Test firing is the best way to compare two experimental bullets or gun modifications.
Context is everything, yes?
Funny, that they’re also the anti-gun crowd.
They are the anti-other people having gun crowd.
Just like they are the anti-other people flying in planes crowd
Anti-other people having heat or an AC crowd
etc
Dr. Spencer,
I am sorry that you are suffering at the hands of the modern variety of socialist fascists. Free Speech, Academic free speech once was a wonderful thing. I just barely remember those days. Old fogies like you who stand in the way of the purification of our world need to be Scapegoated, according to the haters from the left. I suggest you read The Scapegoat by Rene Girard and prepare your hemlock potion. Your bravery is about to be truly tested. People now a days are no different than on November 9, 1938.
What is the difference between Hemlock and Fennell ?? My wife keeps looking at the certified organic Fennel (contains carbon) but I tell her it looks like Hemlock to me.
G
The hard-core greens have had a lunatic militant wing for a long time. Remember Earth First?
Am appropriate name is :Gangrenous Greens” (apologies to L Pickering).
If Dr. Christy had been hit (God forbid!), I wonder if Phil Jones and Michael Mann would have exchanged emails about the oddly “cheering news?”
Maybe not e mails, but on one of their strolls down the hall together…, I have no doubt they would say such a thing.
For one mention of what Mr. Burton is referring to:
Frank K.:
Of all the bits I’ve read, that is the one (if true) that really turned my stomach…”
(http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/breaking-news-story-hadley-cru-has-apparently-been-hacked-hundreds-of-files-released/#comment-227373 )
Well let’s see how Nick Stokes, Griff and Mosher are going to spin this ……
Simple I support police investigating.
Then trust the cops.
Fortunately, apparently the shooter’s aim was just as inaccurate as the climate models he embraces.
They believe in precision, not accuracy.
Like the proverbial Texas Sharpshooter, they empty the clip into the wall and draw the target around the biggest cluster of holes.
Whether from a pistol or a rifle, all 7 shots hitting the 4th floor would almost certainly have been deliberate, and meant to send a messge.
Whatever happened to the ELF group? In prison? they torched some buildings as I recall. Leftists seem to be bolder and bolder, their rhetoric is at a fever pitch.
CAGW Religious Wackos fire shots defending Junk Climate Science!
CACA Terrorist Attack Against National Space Science and Technology Center!
That sounds like they lit a stink bomb and ran. =)
May be a lead-up to Christy and Spencer being forced to leave because, with their presence, the University can’t guarantee keeping everybody “safe”.
beng135 April 24, 2017 at 11:00 am
May be a lead-up to Christy and Spencer being forced to leave because, with their presence, the University can’t guarantee keeping everybody “safe”.
Given that it’s legal to carry firearms on campus I’m not sure how such a guarantee could be made. It’s not very long ago that a faculty member there opened fire on a committee which denied her tenure.
This lead spits into the wind.
============
For Doctors Christy and Spencer:
“Don’t be afraid,” {Elisha} answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”
II Kings 6:16
“For our struggle is not with flesh and blood, but against …. the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of e v i l in the heavenly realms.
Ephesians 6:12
“Don’t be afraid ….
…. the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
I. John 4:4
“Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. For I am with you … .”
Acts 18:9, 10
*********************************
Whether it is:
a Cult of AGW member’s logical response to b r a i n wa s h i n g
or
a stupid tactic by a greed-motivated Enviroprofiteer (or a power-motivated Envirostalinist),
(or, both — the greed and/or power-motivated having sicked the rabid hyena on their enemy)
The result is: A WIN FOR THE SIDE OF TRUTH.
(i.e., such a dumb move only damages the “scientists” for “science” campaign)
Praying for you,
Janice
Just troll through the social media of the local “Antifa” groups. These idiots are actually easy to find.
i’ve been doing a lot of that.
these are children with no clue about fighting or winning.
if you remember the 60’s, you should be able to grok that.
seriously- it’s all ‘I Am Poppy’ shiznitz from kids who wore helmets to ride their hotwheels.
When Science is corrupted into a Religious Ideology, it is Pope Urban ViII telling Galileo he cannot publish his work, because the Church does not approve of it, and subjecting him to the Inquisition for doing so, and subsequently banning sales of it.
This is NOT science. It is a Diktat.
You’ve been duped Sara. The Galileo episode was firstly a scientific dispute (between Galileo and other scientists). It turned into a political dispute when Galileo very publicly belittled and denigrated the Pope that had supported him and allowed him to publish his theory. There was only a very minor religious dimension with regard to personal interpretation of scripture which, after the Reformation, the Church was understandably wary of. The greatest religious opposion to heliocentrism came from Lutherans as Luther himself called Copernicus ‘this fool that goes against the Holy Writ’. The Catholic Church was largely indifferent on the subject of geo/heliocentrism and had approved Copernicus’s work and was taught at Catholic universities when Galileo was a mere glint in the eye.
The Catholic Church was largely indifferent
====================
that explains why so many were tortured to confess and burned at the stake in god’s name.
On 20 January 1600, Pope Clement VIII declared Bruno a heretic and the Inquisition issued a sentence of death.
Luigi Firpo lists these charges made against Bruno by the Roman Inquisition:[31]
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith and speaking against it and its ministers;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and Incarnation;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith pertaining to Jesus as Christ;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith regarding the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus;
holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about both Transubstantiation and Mass;
claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity;
believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes;
dealing in magics and divination.
I don’t see anything in that list dealing with heliocentrism which is what Hoplite was talking about.
Thank you, MarkW, for pointing that out for me. Ferberple probably doesn’t know why he chose Bruno as an example of somebody tortured and killed by the RCC for heliocentrism. As his text shows he was tried for being a heretic and the charges against him were religious and not scientific. The fact that Bruno did support heliocentrism had nothing whatsoever to do with his trial or charges but is the reason why modern anti-Catholics use him as a putative example of the RCC’s ‘anti-science attitude’. The RCC then, as now, is an enthusiastic supporter of science and scientific discovery (as long as it is ethical). From a religious perspective, it regards it as mankind using their God-given reason and faculties to discover the wonder of God’s creation.
This is unacceptable and should be investigated as a attempted murder.
They were not in the building at the time.
The shooter had no way of knowing that nobody was in the building at the time.
Anthony Watts April 24, 2017 at 12:37 pm
It would be nice if the shooter could be caught. If the person belongs to any CAGW group it could get interesting.
Rico laws
designated a terrorist org.
michael
Shouldn’t matter.
They were not in the building.
Wait for the greens to accuse them of shooting at their own offices.
[See carolyn p’s reply making that exact charge in this thread at 2017/04/24 at 6:45 .mod]
Folks
Need to chill and let FBI or state cops do what they do
AGW needs to chill…quit imposing their ideals on society, quit violent tactics (ala Berkeley), and allow time to sort energy technologies out. The changes will happen, eventually, regardless of unnecessary pressure tactics and without need for legislation or Nazi style fascism
Would you be demanding that people chill if it was Mann’s office that was shot at?
ABSOLUTELY, but firing at offices where the opposition group works (Like rioting) ins’t a tactic employed by skeptics or their supporters.
Mosher’s here for damage control as per usual.
Is it normal for the guy doing damage control to shoot himself in the foot?
Another sign warmunists know they are losing. Thank goodness no one was hurt. If police have shell casings, might be prints. Positive ID to weapon is also possible.
The lead projectiles are like fingerprints also, if in good enough condition.
Unless the building is faced with a relatively soft wood, not likely. If they hit stone or concreted the best you can hope for is an isotopic match for bullet metallurgy.
None of this would tell anyone much about the shooter. The ammo is available almost everywhere. IF the police managed to find the gun, they MIGHT manage to match some of the ammo to it, but unless they find the shooter actually in physical possession of the gun, tracing the gun to the original owner is pointless. These green beans may be stupid enough to actually keep the gun with them, but likely not.
Got to agree with Hawkins here. Bullets probably fragmented. However, firing pin indent on primer and recoil markings from bolt face are good ballistic identification recovered casings.
ML, the FN57 handgun used per update 2 is a pretty ‘exotic’ nonstandard semi auto pistol. As an avid hunter and competition shooter in all genras (trap, sporting clays, handgun silhouette, heavy rifle, match light rifle), had never heard of it. Effective range is 50 yards, but the muzzle velocity/bullet mass means it is not a good knockdown handgun. Is used by some non-US police and military, but hard to understand why.
Was probably purchased in the US, so not so hard to legally run down– there cannot have been that many sold in the US. And the shooter supply stores I use don’t carry the 5.7x28mm cartridge AFAIK. Not in South Florida, not in Illinois, not in Wisconsin. True, I did not run out to check Davie’s Bass Pro Shops before posting…
An idiot wants to do something this reprehensibly stupid, smart to do it with a standard issue, likely used and multiply resold outside the national database, garden variety weapon chambered for garden variety ammo. Mostly untraceable. And shooting at windows 60 yards away with any hope of accuracy is not done with an FN57 122mm (4.8 inch) barrel length. On my Wisonsin farm, the minimum barrel length for handgun hunting deer is 8 inches. Mine is a ‘Dirty Harry Make my day’ Ruger Blackhawk .44 mag with custom hunting grips and handloads. For small game (0.22 Rim for squirrels) 6 inches. Shows how stupid these types are. They perpetrate violence without knowing the most elementary military basics about same. Pathetic.
For a bit of morbid trivia, the Fort Hood shooter used a 5.7 X 28
Old Guy,
The shooter would have to be pretty stupid not to police up his cartridge cases.
But then shooting at a building is not only stupid but criminal.
Looks like that ammo can be used in a PS90 rifle also. Some of the rounds do 2,350′ sec.
The cartridge was originally developed for the P90 project, with the pistol coming out later. FN might have intended a pistol all along however, to compete with 9mm for government contracts.
The other option in that cailber are the semi auto P90 clones, their exotic look makes them popular with the younger set. The round was designed as an anti-personnel round for the various European PDW (personal defense weapon) programs. Some security types carry it for it’s armor piercing capability. Those AP rounds are restricted.
This clown should be easy to find. The total sales outside of LE are small.
coincidence (does anyone believe in those) ??
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/24/exclusive-new-study-calls-epas-labeling-of-co2-a-pollutant-totally-false/
Highly recommend that study to all. Is a rewrite of 2016 version one. Better statistics. Is a perfect complement to his very recent Congressional testimony. Is directly aimed at Pruitt’s revisitation of the 2009 EPA endangerment finding.
This song, also for Doctors Christy and Spencer:
“I Will Be with You” (Maranatha Singers)
(youtube)
God bless you Janice … – Phil
Thank you, Phil. Take care, down there.
Investigate. Infiltrate. Incarcerate.
Incinerate.
I hope they had a CCTV system and can obtain some visual evidence. I am sure there will be some social media leads too.
Oppression and bullying in climate science is now at new heights…
If it was someone who works in the same building, they would know where the security cameras are and are not.
A coworker would also know what floor they work on.
ossqss
April 24, 2017 at 11:46 am
There is superb mobile phone tracking and identifying devices that can do and achieve results, especially when the mobiles of the idiots involved were off for the apparent occasion….
cheers
Sadly, it really is worse than we thought.
What’s really telling and sad is that someone fired shots into a school building and it didn’t even make the local news.
I can’t get a single hit on a Google News search. Sometimes it’s actually good not to give other degenerates the idea of copy catting.
Even now, all I see via Google are articles from Breitbart and the Daily Caller.
Roy Spencer has a link to http://whnt.com/2017/04/24/multiple-shots-fired-into-uah-building-over-the-weekend/
Some safe places are more safe than others.
Like I say, all the signs of a cult are there, every single one and they all fit the description exactly. This is just another example of them truly believing any means justifies the ends. Be safe, we’ve gone from scientific discourse an effort to enact the Climate Inquisition, and it’s sadly no joke.
Defense of AGWer co-conspirators: Oh, but, we were only following orders…… yeah……. that’s the ticket…….orders our….. our, uh, our models projected for us. The models told us that we were aiming at a sand dune…… where………. where a giant centipede was about to eat a………a……….. a baby polar bear.
*****************
Yes. I realize this is NOT a laughing matter. My humor is intended to be biting satire designed to expose how e v i l the AGWers really are.
The High Priests of the Climate Doom movement should be held accountable, at least metaphorically. The blame must be laid at their feet for the narrative they weave how evil those are who don’t agree with them.
They deliberately incite those prone to violence to this end. This is absolutely reprehensible.
At some point, we have to recognize that this isn’t a whole lot different than the evil Imam whose call to arms and killing or intimidating for those who are the great satan and/or don’t adhere to their faith, is terrorism. Plain and simple. “Oceans are boiling” and “cattle are being burnt alive”. Talk like that is inciting violence and at some point, it becomes terrorism, as is evident by this news.
What about 350.org? Making videos about blowing up global warming doubters.
And where was the Manniac?
In the recent article and video of deGrasse, he purposefully speaks like a preacher. A religious preacher. Speaking in this manner will have a greater impact on a lot of citizens. The devil worshippers, or skeptics are a threat to democracy. Others also make similar calls for action on silencing skeptics.
Using “the Science” the same way a minister would use “the Word of God”.
Does this really surprise anyone? In good fascist tradition, followers of AGW have been given a socially-acceptable target upon which to vent their hatred, and a noble-cause rational to justify it. And contrary to popular Progressive opinion, THAT’s how Hitler did it.
OMG Think of all the CO2 that was released… and that 7 times. The horror!
The perpetrator should be very ashamed. How insensible of him.
Although it is a reasonable theory that this was a threat specifically directed at those who insist on interpreting our understanding of the drivers of climate change according to scientific methods rather than religion, it is perhaps too soon to be drawing any conclusions. If we skeptics want to preserve a reputation of integrity we should probably wait till more is known.
Seven bullets hit the target. What could that target be Andrew patellofemoral wonders
Why this spellchecker does this grr. andrewpatullo I was typing.
This act has the earmarks of a hate crime, and should be investigated as such.
This is not good on any level… but…
….Maybe it was a bunch of idiots (with no interest in where their bullets went) doing dumb stuff late at night with guns that are freely available in the US.
….Or maybe it was a fringe nutter who has it in for Christy and his ideas. (Yes they exist … “nutters”…on both sides of this debate)
….What it is not (as much as the haters here want to believe), is an act, that would be endorsed by people who peacefully marched on that Saturday.
So, just an idea, perhaps it would be sensible to wait and see what the police find before hanging anyone. Just saying….
Simon, I know your attitudes too well, and you are in no position to counsel us. Your messages are of hate and deceit, and of no value. But it is true that the threats and violence against free speech come from your side. Indeed, i have seen you issuing them. Git ye gone.
Where I was raised, the idiots restricted themselves to shooting traffic signs. I’m not sure I have ever met anyone deranged enough to discharge a firearm in city limits.
Way off topic: What’s going on with NINO3.4? It seems to be bouncing back just as fast as it came down.
How does that compare with the aftermath of prior Super El Ninos?
I’m having trouble finding a graph for 1998 that is directly comparable with the current BOM graph.
So where are all the liberal socialists denouncing it ?? Even YOU did not denounce it in your silly rant !
Guns are not freely available in the US. Everyone has to go through a background check in order to buy one from a dealer.
50 years ago, you could buy guns mail order, and many schools had shooting clubs. Kids would bring their guns with them to school in order to participate.
And despite the fascist fantasies of some, the kids managed to not shoot each other on a regular basis. In fact gun violence was way lower than it is today. (Violence of all kinds was way lower as well.)
‘What it is not (as much as the haters here want to believe), is an act, that would be endorsed by people who peacefully marched on that Saturday.’
Oh, Heaven’s no – they just bait it up and enable it.
And, of course, supply lots of apologist excuses to exonerate themselves from any culpability or blame, no matter HOW obvious.
I find it fascinating how those on the left always declare that those who disagree with them are the haters.
Yeah, they hate those haters don’t they? I wonder if they left their #$#@% cigarettes at the bar.
An act of hypocrisy, of course, but again, a standard method of providing a socially acceptable target for hatred. We’ll CALL them something worthy of hatred (never mind if it’s true or not).
I agree.
PS: I don’t mean to imply that I agree that the people here are haters, just that the marchers are not would-be shooters.
From the signs I’ve seen, a lot of the marchers have enough hate to do something like this.
Nutters on both sides of this debate…
Sorry, I’ve only heard of people on your side who claim to be messiahs. At least they will be sure to take care of the children and grandchildren of those they shoot. After all, they claim to be doing it for them, not for their planet-sized egos and political entitlements.
Would you say the same thing if someone had fired shots into Michael Mann’s building, for example?
“Would you say the same thing if someone had fired shots into Michael Mann’s building, for example?”
Of course I would. I find senseless gutless violence like this totally unacceptable. I am saying let’s wait and see who did this (not that it really matters what side they are on, they deserve to go inside) and when we find out, deal with them accordingly.
Truth is we don’t know who did this and all the pitch fork stuff here is “jumping the gun” so to speak.
Or firebombed and destroyed property at the ‘peaceful protest against an invited right wing speaker at Berkley. That couldn’t be Democrats could it Simon. You ideologues don’t have the decency to ever go against your tribe no matter how heinous some (many? it seems to be developing into) behave.
Your shamelessness won’t be forgotten here. To excuse an obvious act of hatred and criminal. Oh, and your friends aren’t against Dr. Christy’s “ideas” they are against some of the best science being practised in this subject that has been corrupted by Democrats.
I’ve advised lefty friends of mine that the party they follow is no longer the one they think it is. Only the name of it survives. But, I see there is no point in engaging the likes of you.
Gary Pearse
Firstly I am not an American and I couldn’t give a damn about your political bias.
Second, I am not a lefty or a righty as you would put it. I’ve voted both. My point, which seems lost in your one eyed pitch fork fury, is I don’t condone anyone doing this, and nor should any thinking human being. Not left, right, black, white, gay or straight… well you get the idea. So here is a question for you. Would you share my disapproval and call for justice if the same had been done to Michael Mann?
Gary
“I’ve advised lefty friends of mine that the party they follow is no longer the one they think it is. Only the name of it survives. But, I see there is no point in engaging the likes of you.”
So you think the Party Trump now heads is true to the founding ideals of the Republican party? Just curious.
Simon surprise, I’m not American either. And you are correct, Trump isn’t a typical Republican. Indeed, part of the swamp he’s trying to drain has included Washington establishment Repubs.
Even I find it deliciously ironic that this guy, who could never be a friend of mine, is going to be the one to save America and the rest of the world from a totalit@®¿an rule by Champaign soshulists. Like biologists saving the Nile crocodile while the crocs are snapping at their @§§e’s he’ll be saving yours too.
Re Michael Mann, this kind of ridiculous question is an example of the new lefty’s psychological transference tendency and the expected imputing of motives to someone who has just called you out on this kind of thing (although, thank you for tidying up your previous equivocal statement on the act. Perhaps you’ll be easier to save than I thought ) .
You buy into the debunked CAGW theory on highly suspect and not very convincing evidence. Indeed, the projections of the theory give 3 to 4 times the trend of actual observations. Has it been warming? Yes, for 350yrs from a time when the Thames froze over regularly, the Atlantic froze thickly all the way down the New Jersey coast (General Washington’s men rolled cannons over it from Manhattan under the noses of the British Garrison in NY), the Bosphorus also froze over, one third of Finns died of starvation from crop failure, thousand year old villages in the lower Valleys of Switzerland were crushed by glaciers that had descended down from alpine valleys.
How did it get so cold? Well, in the Medieval Warm Period, temperatures were warmer than now, permitting settling and farming in Greenland, cropping of rye, raising of sheep and cattle. Scotland had a winery industry! The descent into the Little Ice Age froze the Norse out of Greenland and many off the farmstead are still buried under ice. Do you see where this all going?
I am a scientist and engineer. I studied paleoclimate as a geology student in the 1950s so I dont take my cues from partisan politics and kumbaya associations. I have many more bits that I could share with you, but if what I have told you here doesn’t twig your interest to follow up on it, what’s the use.
In contrast, remember the phony death-threat-to-warmist-climatologists flap in Australia. I think there were one or two other phony-threat claims from warmists too. (E.g., rude emails that were classified as death threats.) Does anyone here recall the details?
A summary here;
https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2015/11/whos-killing-climate-scientists/
(Here’s an old one…)
To the tune of “Stuck in the Middle with You”
Well I don’t know why I caused such a fright,
I had the feeling that something ain’t right,
I made a scare of some emails out there,
And I’m wondering how my rep now will fare,
Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right, here I am,
Stuck in Yamal on a yew.
Yes I’m stuck in Yamal on a yew,
The “threats” were against kangaroos,
It’s so hard to keep this egg off my face,
Yeah, “Someone invaded their space,”?
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in Yamal on a yew.
We should employ the use of computer models to answer such questions as: “Who fired the shots?, … What was the intent of the shooter?, …”
I’m sure a good computer model would determine that the shots fired were directly linked to tiny rises in the parts-per-million CO2 concentration — you know, leading to increases in global average temperature that have created such stressful climatic conditions, causing usually sane minds to go temporarily insane, leading to episodes of heretofore not witnessed acts of catastrophic stupidity.
I truly believe that increased levels of CO2 have led to increased levels of stupidity, but NOT due to climate stress, as computer models might have us believe. Rather, elevated CO2 levels have merely elevated into view a strange excuse to blame human beings as evil.
Given such realizations of evil, therefore, the shooter (fully embracing his/her own philosophy) would have done better to unload those bullets into him/her self, since he/she is a nasty, carbon-based entity polluting the earth by merely walking on it, and breathing out the trashy CO2 breath that regulates his/her sordid respiration.
I hope this is some random act of violent stupidity, and not from a participant in that goofy march.
PaulH-All you guys downplaying the incident “protesteth too much” . Decency demands you be able to criticize an act of hatred and criminal endangerment that is considerably less in doubt than corrupted climate science. The IPCC would even be forced to give the incident attribution (7 shots at 60yards with a light bullet all slamming into the fourth floor where one of the nation’s most prominent sceptical scientists works along a marching route of CAGW zealots), “highly likely”. Shame. I thought many of you guys to be merely badly informed political partisans worthy of educating in the good reasons for dissenting on crisis climate. But no, you are dyed in the wool tribal supporters of an ugly ideology. I expect Dems lost and will continue to lose decent folks from their party as this violence continues to unfold.
I wonder if the gunman is a friend of people who shoot at power substations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack
Take it as an unconventional tribute to your good work, keep it up.
I am assuming that this investigation is being handled by the UAH Police. Their daily activity log only reports through Sat. 4/22 as of now. Since the only reported incident in the past 10 days was a bicycle theft, a drive-by shooting would rate as a big deal. Hopefully they are receiving some assistance in the investigation.
Thanks for that great reporting, Windsong.
According the Dr. Spencer, the UAH police have already concluded it was “random.” Such a hasty, highly implausible (given the evidence), conclusion makes it clear that they NEED a more experienced, investigatively skilled, police agency to give them a hand, here.
The log as of about 10 minutes ago added this:
(Source: http://www.uah.edu/images/administrative/police/Logs/crime-fire/cr0417.pdf )
At least it’s still “open.” (eye roll)
I took the virtual tour of UAH but it didn’t include Cramer Hall. Nor could I ID it on Google Earth.
This is the trajectory of fascism.
Kristallnacht is coming closer.
Arm and prepare.
5.7mm is an unusual caliber to use in the US.
“High powered, Armour piercing round”
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/fn-herstal-five-seven-5-7x28mm-pistol/
Butch, the article has a few good this but, it’s mainly crap. 5.7X28, is essentially a .22LR, nothing more.
High-powered, compared to what?
http://cj.supraspeed.com/Pics/Weapons/PistolPowerComparison.jpg
Well, I have no expertise on guns…..To me, you put a bullet in, press the trigger, and a bullet comes out…LOL
SMC
Even a well placed .22LR can eliminate your foe. Just hit in between the iris and nose bridge and it will travel through the sphenoidal fissure, along the path of the optic nerve, and bounce around inside the cranium.
Butch, small nit. You put a cartridge in.
High Energy not High Power; Energy is \latex$E = m * V^{2}$, where power is \latex$P = m * V$. The debate over the effectiveness of High Energy vs. High Power is a quagmire.
Should have been,
, where power is$\latex P = m * V$
Paul, what’s the difference?
Honest question, I would like to know.
yes, I was surprised to see that, too. Was expecting 9mm or something similar.
Roy Spencer April 24, 2017 at 2:29 pm
I found this link.
I never heard of it before. It maybe rare enough to trace.
michael
http://armedforcesmuseum.com/belgiums-fn-five-seven-semi-automatic-pistol/
Roy Spencer April 24, 2017 at 2:29 pm
Doc this is no Saturday night special.
One of the big firearm storms here in AZ list it for $1,299
michael
According to WIki, it’s a ground up design, not a wildcat of an existing center-fire cartridge. Also, both the handgun and rifle use the same round, 5.7mm x 28mm, so it’s not possible to tell from the case which was used in this instance. As pointed out under Update 2, a group at 70 yards would be quite a feat for a handgun unless using match ammo and a rest. For a rifle, all in a day’s work.
Depends on the size of the group. I would expect a semi competent shooter to hit a room sized target, say 20LongX10high feet, with a decent pistol and ammo at 70 yards. If we’re talking say 5″ grouping… yeah, that would be a rifle.
FN P90 isn’t a rifle. The 5.7mm is clearly a pistol cartridge. P90 is a submachine gun, billed as a Personal Defense Weapon. It can’t reasonably be considered an assault rifle, since the cartridge is too low-powered. Assault rifles use lower-powered cartridges than the bolt action rifles of yore, but are still in the rifle energy range. The 5.7mm has a rifle-like muzzle velocity, thanks to its small bullet, but its energy can’t compete, again due to small mass.
The 5.7x28mm with its lightest bullet produces 400 ft-lbs of energy (the highest). The 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 cal) round with 62 grain bullet by contrast produces 1303 ft-lbs (not the highest).
Though lower-powered rounds are arguably deadlier against unarmored targets. Instead of a straight penetration, they’re more likely to stay inside the body and “pinball”, making a general mess of everything in their path.
Agreed re grouping. I have experience with both light caliber firearms. That grouping came from a rifle.
Do we know what the size of the grouping is?
All I’ve heard is that all the shots hit the 4th floor.
So when we hear climate alarmists talking about an ensemble of 26 models, what they mean is something like this:
Beretta
Glock
Sig Sauer
Sturm, Ruger & Co.
Heckler & Koch
Colt
Smith & Wesson
Springfield
Walther
FN Herschel
Browning
CZ
Taurus
Magnum
Dan Wesson
Barrett
Kel-Tec
Wilson Combat
Les Baer
Rock Island Armory
Luger
Kahr Arms
Charles Daly Firearms
AMT
Remington
Mauser
Who’d have thought in 100 days Trump would have turned the democrats round to being squarely behind the second amendment!?
Well, just for your record, I own:
3 Berettas, two shotguns and one .40 semi auto model 96
4 Sturm Rugers, 1 rifle and 3 revolvers
4 Colts. Two 1911 ACP, one that fought my godfather fought out of NC after having been shot down, one a competition grade from my uncle, one Secret Service .038 backup, and one .022 target comp. not to mention 2 ruger revolvef other 0.22s.
A bunch of Remington scopex rifles. Gosh, 2x .223, 3x,.308, 1x .306…
And all of this under double,lock and key, and used mainy in my privately owned firing range. Second Amendmend.
Nice collection Rudd!
I prefer, for all purpose useage, the Judge and Circuit Judge (tactical) with PDX1 and Colt long intermixed. Living in Florida can present many varied challenges, so just covering the most bases with one device from snakes to hogs keeps it simple.
Heh. There’s some snowflake reading your post, who just passed out from Progressive Correctness spasms.
My boss, is reading over my shoulder as I type, and he’s highly jealous of your collection.
A decade of scaring the crap out of people has instilled a great fear in many people, many of whom now equate climate skepticism with the Holocaust.
Every act to stop it becomes justifiable.
..It is amazing how intolerant and destructive the “tolerant” left has become….JFK, a true Democrat, would be sickened ….!
“..It is amazing how intolerant and destructive the “tolerant” left has become….”
Leaders on the Left have been preaching hate of their political opponents for a very long time, but it has never been as bad as recent times. For example, we just went through eight years with a radical, divisive, extremely partisan president, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that divisiveness has increased. It happened for a reason.
Preaching hate is bound to spur some really sick psychopaths to violent action. They hear a celebrity or a famous politician promoting violence against someone and the psychopath takes that as permission to act out the violent tendencies they have always felt deep down inside. Suddenly they have a purpose and a target because someone they look up to told them it was ok to satisfy their inner violent desires and it was the right thing to do. This works equally well on radical Leftist, and radical Islamist psychopaths. They get to act out their violent tendencies while serving a “higher” purpose.
The Left is practicing the inciting of the mob, and that tends to stir up the really crazy people in those groups to acts of violence. Leftwing rauble rousers and race baiters and hate mongers should share in the blame and punishment for any violence they inspire. They have been working overtime lately.
I agree entirely – and it’s difficult to understand how it’s not more obvious – but, when you get right down to it, it’s baiting a crowd that already agrees with them.
Maybe showing them a picture of the building isn’t a good idea.
Neal Cavuto interviewed Joe Bastardi on Fox this afternoon at some length. Good interview. Sounded like one or both of them expect the shooting to be covered on tonight’s news. Hope so.
If that were a mailbox or highway sign in the rural west, I would call this unsurprising. I would wonder if there might be a shooting range off in the same direction the bullets came from (I have seen a nice cluster of shots end up where a novice was not actually aiming), or if someone has a beef against UAH and decided to take it out on one of the buildings. There are a lot of possible explanations, and several might be the deranged leftist, but until a person has carefully evaluated a large part of the space of possibilities then everything is just speculation.
I hope we aren’t becoming so crazy.
Going off the fact that people that march in Science marches don’t tend to own guns, I am going with the idea that someone held up in traffic for 1/2 hour during the march shot at the first government building they know of. Just saying.
Sounds like you will go with whatever idea confirms your already held beliefs. Confirmation bias and noble cause corruption are the foundations of the alarmist mindset.
Hum, you of course know that’s what everyone else is doing here. You can’t that stupid.
Reallyskeptical, you even have a “protesteth too much” nick name, like the very undemocratic ‘Deutsches Democratic Republic. Occam’s razor: 70yds, 7 shots with a light bullet all slammed into the 4th floor of a building where one of the most prominent public CAGW sceptics works along the parade route of zealous angry CAGW proponents. You do the math for homework.
Really……? Really,skeptical, I’m really skeptical about that.
This is starting to sound like all the attempts to explain away the Pause.
UAH is in Alabama. I live in Alabama. Mark my words, if the mainstream media picks this up, they will turn it into a “[bubba]: story, and the perpetrators will morph into right wing rednecks……..somehow. The MSM will come up with a reason, no matter how stupid.
[Need more gun control, obviously. .mod]
I’m a terrible typist. Should read, “bubba” story. And there’s and extra “if” in there that doesn’t belong. LOL
I write as an informed student of climate science, and someone who studies both pro-and anti-AGW analyses, and is — currently, science being an ongoing project — firmly in the camp of those who understand the robust physics and empiricism undergirding AGW and its follow-on climate change.
That said, I can completely and thoroughly assure you that the entire climate-science community deplores any and all actions such as the gunshots at UAH. Whoever performed this despicable act is not a representative of the climate-science community, but is instead a deplorable hate-monger who prefers intimidation to data-based, reason-grounded argument.
We’re living in a time when reason is slipping away; when passion and hatred are used as justifications for insult and demonization. It’s time to put a stop to that trend, and return to reason, dialog, and respectful discussion.
Pardon, Mr. Myslewski, but to me, your post is nonsense from beginning to end.
It is preposterous to presume to speak for others, especially when we are thoroughly versed in the less than savory actions and words from those “others”.
As for your “robust physics and empiricism”, let’s see it. Make your case.
We in the skeptic community have endured much from those in your camp, so your call for reasoned and reasonable debate rings hollow, at this point.
Okay, Alan, a few questions, then: First, disprove the physics behind the blockage, absorption, and re-radiation of long-wave (IR) radiation by large, active molecules such as CO2, CH4, N2O, and the like, and how that blockage and re-radiation warms the troposphere in quite easily measurable and quantifiable amounts while concomitantly and measurably cooling the stratosphere, as has been well-demonstrated for many decades.
Second, please explain how it’s meaningless that that warming not only correlates quite smoothly with the steep increase in radiative-forcing CO2 in the troposphere in, say, the last century, as well as being mathematically and demonstrably well-fitted through multiple well-sourced and peer-reviewed analyses to prove that such other forcings as volcanoes, solar activity, aerosols, and other niceties can’t account for the same global temperature rises.
Third, challenge and refute all of the easily correlated temperature measurements from a wide range of independent global sources, such as those by NOAA, NASA, UK Met Office, BEST, the Japan Meteorological Agency, and others over the past half-century or more.
I’ll wait. Thanks.
Okay, Alan, a few questions, then: First, disprove the physics behind the blockage, absorption, and re-radiation of long-wave (IR) radiation by large, active molecules such as CO2, CH4, N2O, and the like, and how that blockage and re-radiation warms the troposphere in quite easily measurable and quantifiable amounts while concomitantly and measurably cooling the stratosphere, as has been well-demonstrated for many decades.
Second, please explain how it’s meaningless that that warming not only correlates quite smoothly with the steep increase in radiative-forcing CO2 in the troposphere in, say, the last century, as well as being mathematically and demonstrably well-fitted through multiple well-sourced and peer-reviewed analyses to prove that such other forcings as volcanoes, solar activity, aerosols, and other niceties can’t account for the same global temperature rises.
Third, challenge and refute all of the easily correlated temperature measurements from a wide range of independent global sources — many using different data-analytical techniques (good overview here: https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/faq/) — such as those by NOAA, NASA, UK Met Office, BEST, the Japan Meteorological Agency, and others over the past half-century or more.
My central point, however, is not whether AGW is verifiable or not — what I’m talking about is that civility should rule our disagreements. Calling my thoughts “nonsense from beginning to end,” you must admit, doesn’t help foster an environment of collegial discussion.
myslewski
Well said. Particularly the last paragraph.
Myslewski:
This:
is nonsense.
1. There is no observed tropospheric hot spot.
For the specific case of global average temperatures, I also add the requirement of spatial consistency between hemispheres. The method makes use of the Vogelsang-Franses (2005) HAC-robust trend variance estimator which is valid as long as the underlying series is trend-stationary, which is the case for the data used herein. Application of the method shows that there is now a trendless interval of 19 years duration at the end of the HadCRUT4 surface temperature series and of 16 – 26 years in the lower troposphere.
(McKitrick, R. (2014) HAC-Robust Measurement of the Duration of a Trendless Subsample in a Global Climate Time Series. Open Journal of Statistics, 4, 527-535. doi: 10.4236/ojs.2014.47050.)
2.
(Source: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/01/21/failed-math-in-1997-noaa-claimed-that-the-earth-was-5-63-degrees-warmer-than-today/ )
In short:
All observed climate fluctuations are well within the bounds of natural variability.
CO2 UP. WARMING STOPPED.
Game over.
Your arguments are not “collegial.” They are junk.
I would not even bother to address them, except to prevent you from fooling others.
Oh, and re:
Read this and weep:
(Available free, here, if you want to be a truly “informed student of climate science”: https://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/tisdale-climate-models-fail-free-edition.pdf )
Not ONE piece of data “undergirds” AGW.
Well Rik, to begin with most skeptics have no problem with radiation physics. Hence, your claim that you have studied the anti-AGW analysis is clearly false. The vast majority of skeptics question the feedback with views all over the place. I seriously doubt you have looked at any of these views.
The warming only correlates with highly modified temperature data. And, given that satellites show no warming signal for over 20 years your claim (demonstrably well-fitted) is complete nonsense. I also see you left out ocean cycles in your list of other variables. There’s a reason your cohorts can’t add them to the list. Ocean cycles correlate almost perfectly with the global temperature changes we’ve seen.
Finally, anyone with any real knowledge of climate knows your list of independent global sources is just so much nonsense. They all use GHCN as the base of their analyses.
Sadly, it appears your brainwashing is complete. You gave in without a whimper.
1) That there is a greenhouse effect from certain atmospheric molecules is generally recognized, although the science even on that point is far from “settled”, whatever that means.
However, the slight effect of more CO2 determined in the lab hasn’t been observed in nature. For one thing, we don’t even know what all carbon sinks are. The world has responded to more plant food in the air by greening, as is to be expected.
IPCC assumes net highly positive feedback effects, which aren’t in evidence. The best observations suggest that feedback from water vapor and other effects in the highly complex climate system up climate sensitivity from the lab’s 1.2 degrees C per doubling to perhaps 1.6 degrees, a far cry from IPCC’s central value of 3.0 degrees C, let alone its high end of the range, 4.5 degrees C. The range of 1.5 to 4.5 degrees C hasn’t been refined since 1979, when it was derived by averaging two guesses and attaching an arbitrary margin of error.
For all anyone knows, net feedbacks might well be negative.
2) Whatever warming actually has been observed in the past century does not even come close to correlating, smoothly or otherwise, with the supposedly observed rise in CO2. Quite the contrary. Earth has cooled, warmed and stayed about the same temperature under rising CO2. There is no correlation.
From around the end of WWI to the start of WWII, ie in the 1920s and ’30s, earth warmed as CO2 fluctuated. The early 20th century warming is scarcely distinguishable from the late 20th century warming. Then after WWII, CO2 rose steadily but the planet cooled dramatically. Indeed, to such a degree that in the 1970s scientists feared a return to ice age conditions. But the PDO flipped in 1977 and earth began warming again. For the next 20 years, increasing CO2 and temperatures accidentally correlated. But then, from the 1990s, GASTA stayed the same while CO2 rose even more rapidly.
On geologic timeframes, there is also no correlation, except to note that warmer oceans release more CO2, ie higher carbon dioxide is an effect of a warming world, not a cause.
3) The so-called “surface data sets” are works of science fantasy. They are not science and cannot pass statistical muster. They are adjusted beyond all recognition without justification. The satellite and balloon records are better, but only go back to the middle of 20th century.
The GIGO computer models are worse than worthless exercises in special pleading. The assumptions behind them aren’t physical or based upon observation. They ignore or downplay important climatic phenomena, such as clouds.
According to the GHE hypothesis, the air should warm first and the surface thereafter. Just the opposite has happened. The predicted tropical tropospheric hotspot is not in evidence.
The AGW hypothesis was thus born falsified and has repeatedly been so anew. Without AGW, there can be no catastrophic man-made global warming. Hence, no worries. More CO2 has been a good thing so far and more would be even better. Best of all would be a tripling to 1200 ppm, ie the level maintained in real greenhouses, to raise healthy and happy plants.
Richard M — well said! Glad you showed up!
You, too, Chimp (and Alan — still praying about you-know-what 😉 and phil)!
Mr. Myslewski,
Your points, 1-3:
1) Your question (1) is
a bit ofa red herring. No one argues that the behavior (effect) of “greenhouse” gases in the atmosphere can’t be explained by physics, within the limits of our understanding. What’s to disprove?The question becomes: How much effect?
(One can’t help but notice that a rather common binary compound with the most significant “greenhouse” effect is missing from your commentary.)
2) You asked for an explanation of “smooth” correlation between temp. records and CO2. That’s another fine logical fallacy. Why? Because there is no extant (Earth) temperature data set which shows correlation with CO2atm. (In the interest of increasing knowledge (and collegial debate,) feel free to look up a list of logical fallacies.)
Maybe I just don’t understand your use of the term “smooth correlation”. Otherwise, maybe the periods Feb. 1997- Nov., 1998 and… well, you get the point. Several extended periods during the last 170 years don’t correlate very well at all, do they?
3) I’m at a loss, here. What is the question? Refute that temp. data sets exist? Accept without question, the seemingly endless adjustments to and other issues with data sets?
If you are looking for someone who doesn’t apparently understand anything about the various data sets,but who is nevertheless a vocal proponent of doom and guilt and the need for forced atonement at the hands of an all- powerful state, (i.e., a CAGW spokes- advocate,) then look no further than Dr. David Suzuki:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/24/climate-campaigner-david-suzuki-doesnt-know-what-the-climate-temperature-data-sets-are/
Ps In the interest of fostering an environment of civility, I’ll not highlight more logical fallacies (in this response.)
pimf- should read: “… the period Feb. 1997- Nov. 2015…”
We don’t have to explain away what doesn’t exist.
There is no smooth increase in temperature that matches the smooth increase in CO2 levels.
Temperatures started rising long, long before CO2 levels started rising. In the era of rising CO2 levels, temperatures have gone up, gone down, and stayed steady for 20 years.
warming not only correlates
=====================
the problem is that the warming began 300+ years ago, before population and CO2 started increasing. so the only cause and effect that is possible is to say that increasing temperatures have led to increasing population which has led to increasing CO2.
in other words, temperature is driving CO2 because it is driving population. If temperatures were to drop, many humans would likely die as food because scarce, leading to a decrease in CO2.
The robust physics and empiricism have been shown not to undergird AGW and its follow-on climate change. Please try harder.
” robust physics and empiricism undergirding AGW”
Now that thar is funny
Rik Myslewski
April 24, 2017 at 3:26 pm
Rik
Making it short…in your first comment you use innuendos to still serve the consensus “pill” by trying to assure all here about the position of any one in climate-science community, when there is no possible means in your support or in your service for such as a claim, not empirically at