Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
“You can have brilliant ideas, but if you can’t get them across, your ideas won’t get you anywhere.” Lee Iacocca
In his essay, “Reflections on Mark Steyn’s ‘A Disgrace to the Profession’ about Dr. Michael Mann” Rick Wallace wrote,
Tim Ball, Fred Singer and others have been countering the AGW meme for a few decades, but to little avail.
He is correct. Yes, there is a slight increase in the number of skeptics as evidenced by the increased readership at WUWT, but it is a fraction of even total Internet users. Even those who read and comment on WUWT articles on the site often say they are not scientists or don’t fully understand the topic. Others demonstrate their lack of knowledge and understanding without the caveats.
Wallace continues,
But why is this? Why haven’t their voices carried? And, conversely, why was The Team so successful in getting their message out? Was it because, possibly for quite other reasons, there was already a receptive audience at hand? That there was an existing matrix of attitudes and beliefs to which the AGW belief system could adhere? And this matrix served to amplify some messages while it filtered out other, conflicting messages.
In a preface to the essay, Anthony Watts wrote,
“Given what happened today in live testimony before the House Science Committee where Dr. Mann was testifying, this review seems germane and timely.”
We can add to the timeliness the recent Washington D.C Heartland Climate Conference held (March 23-24, 2017). The conference was held with the opt
imism created by the election of President Trump and appointment of Scott Pruitt as head of EPA. By some accounts, it was a successful conference that spoke primarily to the science issues and some of the economic ramifications. In doing so, it overlooked, as skeptics have consistently, Iacocca’s challenge. These events will have little impact on effectively slowing the anthropogenic global warming (AGW) juggernaut. It will join the list of events, which I and others expected would crash the vehicle. Just a few key examples
· The 1988 claim by James Hansen before Senator Timothy Wirth’s orchestrated piece of theatre that he was 99 percent certain that humans were causing global warming.
· The 1997 Byrd-Hagel Resolution asked US Senators whether they wanted to vote to ratify Kyoto Protocol. They voted 95-0 not to vote on ratification.
· The 2009 Heartland Institute Climate Conference was presenting skeptical views on a world stage.
· The 2009 leak of 1000 emails from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU). These emails were clearly carefully selected to provide evidence of wrongdoing that the public would likely understand. It didn’t help.
· The 2010 release of 6000 more CRU emails further documented the malfeasance, which Mosher and Fuller summarized in their book Climategate: The Crutape Letters;
“The Team, led by Phil Jones and Michael Mann, in attempts to shape the debate and influence public policy:
Actively worked to evade (Steve) Mcintyre’s Freedom of information requests, deleting emails, documents and even climate data
Tried to corrupt the peer-review principles that are the mainstay of modern science, reviewing each other’s’ work, sabotaging efforts of opponents trying to publish their own work, and threatening editors of journals who didn’t bow to their demands
Changed the shape of their own data in materials shown to politicians charged with changing the shape of our world, ‘hiding the decline’ that showed their data could not be trusted.”
The juggernaut survived these charges that would have shut down completely any other program. The CRU and the IPCC are still operating. This was the same Michael Mann who appeared before a US Congressional House Committee on Science and Technology Hearing titled “Climate Science: Assumptions, Policy Implications, and the Scientific Method along with Judith Curry, John Christy and Roger Pielke Jr. The event received praise from skeptics and people who know and understand what has been going on. They focused on Mann’s character, manner, methods. Julie Kelly wrote a National Review article titled “Michael Mann Embarrasses Himself before Congress” that summarizes most of the skeptic’s perspective. She observes,
‘If the climate-change evangelist can’t be bothered to take a House hearing seriously, why should anyone take him seriously?”
This is incorrect. Mann took it very seriously, was well prepared and exploited it for every political opportunity – he dominated the entire proceedings. He had the advantage of not caring or having to care about the truth. His performance was designed for most of the public who have no idea about what is true. He knows this works because that assumption has driven the juggernaut from the start.
Mann also understood the political and manipulative nature of Congressional hearings. They are charades supposedly seeking the truth, but are really designed to make the politicians look good. They use the opportunity to put material on the official record that supposedly supports their position in the form of appeal to higher and wider or popular authority. Often, the politician simply read their staff-written position paper and don’t even bother with the expert.
My challenge to skeptics is to view the hearing as an uninformed citizen. From that perspective, I would argue that Mann was the most effective and persuasive. He was assertive, apparently provided hard evidence, had the backing of most scientists and scientific societies. He turned the minority status role the organizers gave him into the base for his victimization role. It wasn’t a debate, but he turned it into one and clearly believed, as would most uninformed observers, that he won.
He also believes he won because he marginalized his three opponents by calling them deniers in the pay of corporate entities. They believed they deflected this challenge with the help of the Chair, but that added to his victimization because it placed the Chair against him. The deniers said he was wrong, but because of time constraint offered no alternate explanations. They said the computer models were wrong but didn’t explain how or why. Their answers were properly vague because there are few definitive answers, but that contrasted with Mann’s confident assertiveness. Their vague answers underscored that they were a fringe group, thus justifying their denier label. They said Mann’s claim of increasing severe weather was incorrect but offered no graphs to prove it. They clearly had personal animosity to Mann but denied it when challenged. They provided no motive or even an explanation for why all these thousands of scientists would present false material and information and offered no explanation for their inferred claim that Mann was cheating.
Mann presented his latest research relating changes in the changes in the Jet Stream with severe weather. Nobody at the hearing pointed out that his claims were scientifically incorrect and the result of false computer model simulations. It is evident that Mann and his fellow authors did little historical research on the vast amount of data and literature beginning with the discovery of the Jet Stream during WWII and the work of Carl-Gustaf Rossby. The format of the hearings prevented any cross examination of Mann’s material, so it again made him more authoritative that the “deniers.” Overall, by trying to control the hearings and achieve their result the organizers played right into the hands of a person determined to disrupt the proceedings.
A major reason it appeared to the uninformed observer that Mann ‘won’ was the inability of the “deniers” to provide definitive answers. They are correct but think of the contradiction this creates for the uninformed. This small group of deniers is saying we don’t know the answers, but Mann is wrong.
The sad part is most skeptics would not have done any better. I watched another group of skeptics make a similar disastrous, unable to see the forest for the trees performance, before the Canadian parliament. They were asked questions that none of them could answer all the questions. The answers they gave were scientific jargon that few in the room understood. Worse, their answers indicated bad science by the AGW proponents. If so, was it bad because of incompetence or deliberate malfeasance? Either way, it raises several questions that if left unanswered or unexplained only give Mann credibility. If the science was wrong why and how did it pass peer review and go unchallenged? If it was deliberate malfeasance, how could so few people fool the entire world? Either way, if you make or infer the charge, you must provide an explanation and a motive. I did not hear that in the Ottawa or Washington hearings.
I did not attend the Washington Conference, partly for lack of funding, but primarily because I saw nothing to slow the political juggernaut that is global warming. I offered to make a presentation bringing everybody up to date with my legal situation, but also providing the political context for the lawsuits. Why did three prominent IPCC members, Gordon McBean, Andrew Weaver, and Michael Mann, bring, what amount to SLAPP lawsuits against me. I think there are two fundamental reasons. They could not say I wasn’t qualified, although they tried. I also had an ability to explain the complexities of climate and climate change in a way most could understand. I honed these skills by
- Instructing basic weather knowledge and forecast skills as an operations officer in Atlantic Canada and sub-Arctic and Arctic Canada.
- Teaching a first-year university climatology course for 25 years.
- Teaching a required Science credit university course for Arts students for 25 years.
- Teaching a non-credit university course for Seniors titled “The Way the Earth Works” for 25 years.
- Giving hundreds of public presentations to professional groups in primary industry like farmers, foresters and fishermen whose economies are directly impacted by weather and climate over 40 years.
- Writing a monthly column, Weather Talk” for Canada’s largest circulation farm magazine Country Guide. I was fired after 17 years because of action by a single Board member.
- Writing a monthly column for The Landowner for the last seven years.
- Giving hundreds of open forum public presentations over 40 years.
- Publishing a first-year university textbook on climatology.
A good example of the latter is important because it illustrates the challenge and explains why groups have been so ineffective, as Wallace identifies, in “countering the AGW meme.” Recently, I gave a public presentation in Mount Vernon in Washington State. The organizer warned me that people were in attendance who planned to disrupt the proceedings. There was no disruption, and when I asked what happened, the organizer told me that they left with one person commenting, we have never heard any of this before.
The solution to breaking the AGW meme is not in the science, good or bad because the public doesn’t know the difference. It is in showing how the science was created to achieve a predetermined result, namely the demonization of CO2. Then you must provide a motive. Why would scientists pervert science as David Deming identified in his letter to Science and congressional testimony?
“With the publication of the article in Science [in 1995], I gained significant credibility in the community of scientists working on climate change. They thought I was one of them, someone who would pervert science in the service of social and political causes. So, one of them let his guard down. A major person working in the area of climate change and global warming sent me an astonishing email that said, we have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period. “
I made this challenge to explain climate in a way the public can understand the main theme of my presentation at the First Heartland Climate Conference in New York in 2009. I know from many discussions during the conference that few understood. Those that did were already in the education and communication business; people like Marita Noon who is now working for the Heartland Institute. A major point in my presentation was to accept that whether you like it or not Al Gore’s movie was a remarkably effective piece of propaganda. His latest effort is not even that, but most of the public won’t know. It is ineffective because Gore’s motives and hypocrisy have been exposed, not because public understanding of the science has improved.
Wallace’s charge that Tim Ball, Fred Singer, and others have challenged the AGW meme to no avail is correct. This, despite all the scientific evidence presented over the years up to and including Heartland’s 12th Conference and the recent Congressional Hearing. Little or nothing has changed. What is the solution?
Trump won in the minds of working and middle-class people, which is where the climate war must be won for lasting victory. They only need to understand enough science to know how it was corrupted, but they must know the motive. Until that happens, all the AGW proponents need to say is that Trump is acting to line the pockets of his billionaire friends. Mann demonstrated the technique in his congressional presentation.
Spot the “could” that should have been a “couldn’t ” competition.
To a large extent I’d have to agree w/Tim Ball. The CAGW gravy train is running as fast as ever. Trump may be able to slow it down, but it’s hard to slow down a Juggernaut. However, it still needs to be chipped away at, as that is the only alternative.
Also we need to communicate the waste, fraud, and abuse inherent in green policies justified with AGW. In the USA critics of government spending had some success demonstrating that over time to the public. I know we have some but could do better.
So we should have rejoiced in the K cars at the time and congratulated the poor people who bought them and the government agencies that were forced to take them. This too shall pass.
The reason sceptics haven’t won the war is simply because there’s too much money in ‘climate change’. Too many jobs, too many quangos, too many vested interests and too many reputations; all creaming the system (ie the public) for what they can while they can. The entire racket will continue for as long as the powers that be wish it to.
We are not winning the climate war. In the UK, most people believe what they are told by government, the BBC, the scientific community including learned bodies like the Royal Society and of course, the press. The Guardian pumps out global warming alarmism on a daily basis.
Apart from fairly infrequent articles in the Mail on Sunday and sometimes an article by Christopher Booker, there is nothing to persuade or inform the public about the state of the science.
As most people who visit this site accept, global warming due to CO2 is happening, but we are fairly sure it is not a serious problem and does not justify many of the policies that are in place. Let’s face it, that is a pretty uninspiring message, even though it makes the difference of trillions of dollars.
In my view, only two things can change this state of affairs. The first is for a large number of climate scientists to become whistleblowers and expose all the different problems with the science.
The second is for a significant downturn in global temperature.
Skeptics are out numbered by magnitudes in numbers, layers, roles, nasty aggression and rhetoric.
At it’s base the left is far more naturally driven to be an activist. They have produced massive numbers of advocates and groups while at the same time infecting and saturating every academic & government entity.
That beast is so immense our opposition force is miniscule in comparison.
But we are also less aggressive, less willing to attack, less willing to wage war and crippled by a passive belief that somehow the truth will eventually prevail on it’s own. AKA weak.
The left gets away with salvo after salvo of unchallenged attacks and assertions because there is really no countering force to call them out or sufficiently set the record straight .
Exhibit A is Jane Lubchenco. This “distinguished” professor who has spent decades as a rabid evironmentalist engaged in some of the worst deceit perpetrated.
Yet she has not faced a single expose by anyone anywhere. Let alone here on WUWT.
How is that possible. Is it because it would appear cruel? What is it?
She lied and manipulated her way to Obama’s head of NOAA while enriching her family into millionaires and got removed by Democrats outraged over her dishonesty and ineptness.
Her long rancid track record of fabricating baseless scientific conclusions and manipulating policy makers is as nasty as the Sierra Club or any other fanatic liars.
Oregon State University Professor Lubchenco pumped out some of the worst Ocean Acidification propaganda, invented global warming caused Oregon Ocean Dead Zones, lied about fisheries depletion everywhere, used her deceit to move the NOAA fleet to her state, conspired to get massives research grants and convinced the Oregon legislature to needlessly adopt 5 marine reserves prohibiting any harvesting.
Despite the lousy media coverage Lubchenco was effectively fired from her NOAA position.
She then lied about her exit. That’s what she does. Lies.
JANE-LUBCHENCO-GROSSLY-FAILED-POLICIES
http://fisherynation.com/archives/tag/jane-lubchenco-grossly-failed-policies
“In her resignation email Lubchenco made the gravity-defying claim that she had made “notable progress” in “ending overfishing, rebuilding depleted stocks, and returning fishing to profitability”
Lubcheno is rabid left wing environmental activist who has lied like all zealous environmentalist and used her positions to push a radical agenda while enriching herself.
She lied heavily about depleted fisheries as she tried to impose catch share programs until Democrats insisted she be replaced.
…”if she doesn’t resign, they want the Obama White House to remove her from her job.”
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/two-congressmen-both-democrats-ask-obama-dismiss-his-noaa-administrator
Two Congressmen, Both Democrats, Ask Obama to Dismiss His NOAA Administrator
I think Mann is a very persuasive liar. Keep shining light on his proclamations.
This was a charade, of little importance. All the Congressmen are firm in their opinions by now. This was merely a required display to show the public that the Congressmen listen to all sides.The very fact that Mann was allowed to have his say signals a win for the skeptics.
There are two structural problems for the skeptic side of the AGW debate:
1) A lie boldly told is more effective than truth spoken as uncertainty. Witness the problem of the global panic about vaccines triggered by one apparently flawed study. It is much harder to prove the negative.
2)The MSM has degenerated into blatant clickbait prostitution. Pimps need hookers. Bill Nye, Mann and Gore may be clowns, but they fulfill their function for the press.
The strategists of the skeptic movement might consider some more provocative tactics like reversing the narrative. Like say, (/sarc)
The Global Greening Foundation – dedicated to fostering the growth of plants world wide through increasing their access to CO2. How about promoting using the tech for removing CO2 from the atmosphere and placing the plants high above farms and forests to blow concentrated CO2 down to ground level for the plants. No more wacky than ships blowing clouds up from the ocean.
The Foundation for Humanity – promoting access to cheap energy for all humanity. For the cost of a trip to the shopping mall, you can send a gallon of kerosene to a poor family in Africa so they can cook for a week and not have to walk miles to cut trees for firewood. For an extra $20 we will send a kerosene powered micro-generator so they can charge their smartphone.
There is nothing more exciting to liberal reporters than an idea they absolutely hate. Trump understood this and played them like a violin.
Fight fire with fire.
What the skeptical side needs is a scientific attack dog, preferably of celebrity standing, with something like Trump’s scorn for the rule book, Curry’s grasp of the issues, and Trey Gowdy’s instinct for the jugular.
Tom Anderson, well said! Can anyone think of a way to convince Gowdy to become our spokesperson?
We have some excellent Congressmen and Senators that are up to the task. They asked some fantastic questions and made some excellent points in hearings with Gina McCarthy. I hope those that are replacing the ones that were appointed to positions on the Trump team are as well informed. We lost a few of the better ones.
Or how about, “Coal – recycling trees from their golden age to build a greener world today”
The fact that Congressional dog an pony shows are used to discuss climate science is clear evidence that politics, specifically from the far left, has corrupted the field. Combine this with University researchers and a media that leans decidedly left and the truth will remain obscured until the next inevitable ice age arrives and even then these idiots will blame it on CO2.
During the Reagan and first Bush administration Hansen was considered an alarmist fool for his sloppy research and unwarranted conclusions. When Clinton came to power, he connected with Gore and initiated a petty act of revenge. It was his sloppy research that Schlesinger ‘corrected’ which incorrectly claimed that massive positive feedback amplifies a demonstrably tiny effect into a theoretically large one and that this provided the scientific justification for IPCC’s far left agenda of redistributive economics under the guise of climate reparations.
If the MSM was honorable enough to deliver a truth that contradicts their political perspective, this whole entire mess would disappear overnight. Unfortunately, politics is more powerful than the truth.
To show how gullible people are, a company did a survey in Manitoba and came to the conclusion that most Manitobans are OK with a carbon tax.
There are two explanations: One is a bad survey.
The second is that we have gullible people who believe the MSM, CBC and a newspaper.
The survey should ask questions like: How do you know we are warming, Have you seen data on measurements of CO2 causing warming, Have you seen data on changes in frequency of storms, Have you checked both sides.
There seem to be many calling for realists to become activists.
It was climate activism that created this mess. Contrary activism will only make a larger mess and will change good skeptical scientists into fund seeking counter alarmists ie bad scientists. Two evils cannot be regarded as good.
Error can only be corrected when the public perceives the error as an error. That is what we have been trying to do for years. We must continue to shine a light onto the darkness with no assurance of victory. Degeneration of culture may defeat our efforts completely. We can only try. Society will suffer consequences and that too… seems to be a lesson we repeat over and over. GK
Not winning the war…
a) fight them with reason. convince the scientists. not working.
b) fight them with politics. show the science and the academic/scientific complex is corrupt. not working.
c) fight them with economics. show the public that reducing CO2 will hurt the economy. not working.
d) fight them with propaganda. only bad people do that. we haven’t stooped that low.
what else is there?
Not winning the war
a) CO2 doesn’t cause extreme warming or other climate change
b) a bit of warming is a good thing for us and plants like it. cold is bad.
c) the ocean rising and acidity is exaggerated
d) polar bears are not dying out
need I go on?
Not winning the war
a) climate change is not our fault
b) if we stopped producing CO2 it wouldn’t make any difference
c) we can’t afford to stop producing CO2
d) we can’t stop producing CO2 anyway
resistance is futile.
It’s so ironic. The alarmist are winning the battle for public opinion that we should do something about climate change, BUT there is nothing anybody can do to actually change the climate! We can spend lots of money and lives trying and failing.
Of the blogs I have seen, this one makes the best arguments, and he is not even a skeptic:
https://achemistinlangley.wordpress.com/2017/03/26/on-fighting-climate-change-and-what-it-will-mean-for-bccanadas-energy-politics/
He is a scientist in the Vancouver area and has a number of excellent articles on his blog.
Climate alarmism gets a great push from the left because it fills a big need, namely, a justification for collectivism. The original argument for Marxism was that workers were being exploited by free markets, so governments had to control economic activity. But after WWII there came to be undeniable evidence that workers’ lives were much better under free markets (West Germany, Hong Kong, South Korea) than under socialism/communism (East Germany, China, North Korea). So leftists needed a new moral justification to control the economy, and the bogeyman of CO2 emissions filled the void. The totalitarians have gone from ‘capitalism exploits the workers’ to ‘capitalism destroys the earth’ – both assertions having the same degree of evidentiary support.
The scientific method states that any theory, such as dangerous man made global warming, must be supported by observation. Otherwise it remains a theory….or a guess.
CO2 levels were significantly higher in the past. CO2 has never been observed to be a driver of the climate.
CO2 levels were higher than today in 85% of the past 600 million years.
Corals evolved in a period when temperatures were 10 deg C warmer and CO2 levels were ten times greater,
There is no increase in global storms or their intensity.
Sea level has been rising for 10,000 years, the rate of rise is not increasing.
Polar bear populations are growing and setting record for most size.
When you add the sea ice at both poles together there is essentially no loss of total polar sea ice.
Antarctic sea ice has been growing for decades, broke the record for most ice in September 2014.
Antarctic land ice has been growing since 1992 according to NASA. Since Antarctica has 90% of the Earth’s glaciers, this means the Earth’s glaciers are growing, not shrinking.
There is no increase in record high temperatures. The warming is at night and in winter, and amounts to about 0.8 Deg C since the mid 1800s.
The oceans are alkaline, which is the opposite of acid. The oceans can never become acid, they didnt when CO2 levels were 15 times greater than today. Saying the oceans are acidifying is like saying on a 100 deg F day that cools to 99.9 degrees, that temperatures are winterizing. They are simply becoming slightly less alkaline.
There is no increase in disease due to man made global warming.
and a lot more I probably forgot to add.
And after only a few years of record highs – entirely attributable to ice getting spread out further by changing wind patterns – Antarctic sea ice just hit a record low minimum…
Nobody knows how most polar bear populations are doing: they are not surveyed.
There are significant impacts on the Beaufort Sea, Svalbard and Hudson Bay populations from changes in arctic sea ice. The Hudson Bay population has declined.
you are completely wrong about growing glaciers, I’m afraid
Wrong.
When we talk about changing people’s minds, we are not talking about science. We are talking about marketing.
Nothing has worked so far, except elections.
Most of your battles won are political not scientific. That’s why you don’t make real progress.
You tried to undo Mann 98 with blogs but no science so you let that stand.
You tried to undo Marcott 13 with blogs but no science so you let that stand.
You tried to actually do science once to undo the surface based record with BEST, opps, that affirmed the surface based record.
So Bell suggest you go political.
Good luck.
ReallySkeptical, you state that ‘you tried to undo Mann with no science’ when this entire blog and others like it use science to show how Mann and the rest deliberately abused it. The simple fact of the matter is that Mann and the others are well funded while we are not. Money makes the world go around, and most people simple are too ignorant to discuss AGW.
With an attitude like yours, no one would make any progress. You’re only skeptical on what you personally want to be skeptical on.
Did you say blog?
The IPCC didn’t let it stand; it dropped it.
Trebla, you said:
“I have a question for you. How much compassion do you see from humanity for the plight of the desperate refugees who are fleeing the war-torn Middle East RIGHT NOW?”
I really don’t want to take this off topic, but how much compassion do YOU have for the European women ‘diversified’ by these poor, innocent refugees that are a majority young, fighting age men? Hmm.
Hello! A friendly comment from an actual environmental scientist (I just got promoted to assistant professor, jeeh!)
This is some honest advice for if you want to start actually engaging with the rest of the world instead of just continuing to complain to each other here on the comments page. I hope you will take it in that spirit:
1) If you want to engage with scientists, do the bare minimum necessary and read the basic textbook on atmospheric chemistry and physics. It’s painfully obvious that nobody here has done that.
https://www.amazon.com/Atmospheric-Chemistry-Physics-Pollution-Climate/dp/1118947401
2) stop the bizarre conspiracy theory stuff about the UN. It’s just a big organization that for the most part does boring bureaucratic stuff that is still very important. For example: there is a UN committee to make sure that the signs on airports are the same all over the world, so airplanes don’t crash because the pilots get confused. I understand that it’s fun to pretend the UN somehow wants to take over the wold, but it’s really off putting for everyone else.
3) As the saying goes, the skeptic goes after the science, the troll goes after the individual. By this standard, WUWT is does way too much trolling to be taken serious. Stop the bizarre obsession with a couple of individuals (mr Mann and mr Strong come to mind). The world is a very large place and nobody cares about e.g. some senate hearing where mr Mann did or did not say some smart/dumb stuff.
And finally, let’s not forget Occam’s razor. The most simple reason why the entire world is moving in a direction you don’t agree with is that you’re just wrong 😉
Cheers,
Ben
I have to disagree Ben. We are skeptics due to a basic understanding of the science. The academic climate field with the constant promotion of their alarmist narrative have rendered AGW political where perception trumps reality. Here in Canada, it is the same situation, our educated and political class have also bought into the scary story.
The man-made climate change concern originates with the atmospheric portion of CO2 increasing from 0.028% (measured in ice cores at 280 parts per million) for pre-industrial times to the current 0.04% (400ppm) and the portion of the increase that is from fossil fuel combustion. A 120ppm increase is 1.2 atmospheric molecules per 10,000, so the influence is understandably questionable.
The actual mechanism (the Enhanced Greenhouse Effect) is not in question. The 150 year instrumental record indicates an increase of 0.8 degrees C. to the mean, which coincides with the climate’s recovery from The Little Ice Age (1350-1850AD) that started with the end of the Medieval Warm Period (850-1350AD)
We all know CO2 is a radiatively active (greenhouse gas) molecule. It is largely infrared resonant at an amplitude of 15 microns for which the corresponding temperature is over 50 degrees C. below zero. This is why the AGW play occurs well above the cloud deck (still within the troposphere) where there is no water vapour.
Adding CO2 to the atmosphere raises the ERL (Effective Radiation Level) to a colder level thus disturbing the equilibrium where outgoing terrestrial longwave infrared radiation balances incoming solar shortwave IR. The accepted math yields a forcing calculation of 3.7 watts/meter squared per atmospheric doubling of CO2 (560ppm) from pre-industrial ice core calculated levels (280ppm) which translates to roughly an increase of +1 degree C to the surface mean temperature. To the extent this “increase” can actually change the climate is where the science ends and the supposition begins.
Where the concern kicks in is the positive water vapour feedback hypothesis. The IPCC endorsed numerically modeled temperature projections to 2100 include an assumed feedback response over and above the “known” effect of CO2 (~+1C per doubling of concentration) due to increased water vapour from the Anthro CO2 warming. Water vapour is the most abundant and forceful ‘greenhouse’ gas in the atmosphere, ergo even more greenhouse warming, supposedly two or three times as much as the original increase in CO2.
The higher estimates of climate sensitivity, the origin of the catastrophic scenarios thus the need to mitigate, are based on the the water vapor feedback/amplification “triggered” by AGW. However, there are uncertainties. More water vapor from increased evaporation (itself a profound cooling effect) means more daylight clouds in the lower atmosphere which reflect incoming solar while shading the surface, thus a significant cooling effect to counter the AGW effect along with the nightly warming effect of the low level clouds.
CO2 has risen monotonically since we began measuring it 60 years ago. During this time there have been decadal periods where the temperature mean has risen, fallen and times when it has gone in neither direction. So the instrumental record either does not support AGW theory, or the effect is statistically negligible. Either way the need to impose taxes and costly methods (think wind/solar) to reduce combustion emissions is not justified.
Regards, M.W.Plia.
Except, cooling at night is regulated by water vapor, and that 1F just gets radiated away before water vapor stops the cooling.
This is the flaw in the consensus science. You can see this in the temp change under clear skies, you can see this by how daily min temps, follows dew point temp. This all gets hidden by using average daily temps.
Except, cooling at night is regulated by water vapor, and that 1F just gets radiated away before water vapor stops the cooling.
This is the flaw in the consensus science. You can see this in the temp change under clear skies, you can see this by how daily min temps, follows dew point temp. This all gets hidden by using average daily temps.
Hi MW Plia!
So yeah, your understanding of the physics behind climate change seems to be pretty near to the fundamentals everyone agrees on, although from the specifics it’s still pretty clear you haven’t actually read the textbook (*sigh*). I should point out this makes you an outlier on this website. Regardless, If everyone was as reasoned as you it would be fine. If you don’t agree with the current understanding of water vapor feedback loops, the correct way to go about convincing someone like me is not to just say ‘it’s wrong!’, but to actually dive into the scientific literature and see what everyone else has written about it. There is quite a lot. If you ignore it, then you can reasonably be expected to be ignored yourself.
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you could just download the models yourself and see exactly how the code works and then complain in specifics about exactly what you don’t agree with and support that with actual calculations. Have fun!
http://www.cesm.ucar.edu/
Kind regards,
Ben
Bonbon sez:
“Hello! A friendly comment from an actual environmental scientist…”
My comments:
Your comments show you are not even close to friendly.
You do not include any science in your comments.
You do focus on an appeal to authority — a certain science book that I doubt that you have read, based on the lack of science knowledge in your comments.
You tell everyone to read that science book, but it is not obvious you have ever read the book yourself, because your comments contain no numbers, facts or other data that would make you seem knowledgeable on climate change.
You focus on ridicule and character attacks, like most Dumbocrats do — they consider that “debate”
You seem to think that climate change is well understood, and perhaps explained in ‘the book’ — but if that is your belief, then you are a fool.
I’ll guess that your favorite book promotes CO2 as the “climate controller”.
Unfortunately, there is no evidence in 4.5 billion years of climate history that CO2 was ever the “climate controller”, or even an important climate change variable.
There is evidence from ice core proxy studies that when oceans warm from natural causes, they release, with a lag, some of the dissolved CO2, just like a cold soda pop would do if placed outside on a warm day.
There is no evidence of runaway global warming at any time in the past 4.5 billion years, even with CO2 levels higher than today most of the time — perhaps reaching 10x to 20x higher.
The future climate is unknown, and unknowable, without specific knowledge of what causes climate change.’
Even with specific knowledge of what causes climate change, the variables could change at random, rather than being cyclical, so the future climate still would not be predictable.
The evidence collected so far strongly suggests CO2 is not the “climate controller”, and that’s why average temperatures and CO2 levels have not had a positive correlation most of the time since the “era of manmade CO2” began in 1940.
And if you are really an “actual environmental scientist”, I now rank environmental scientists as two steps below politicians, and one step below used car salesmen (I’m using the the Saul Alinsky-style rhetoric that you Dumbocrats understand so well).
No person with common sense who read your comments would guess that you were a scientist — in my opinion you are not — you are just a leftist dimwit appealing to authority by pretending to be a scientist and promoting a book that no one ever heard of.
Most important: You have no clue what the future climate will be, the author of the book has no clue what the future climate will be, and I have no clue what the future climate will be.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS I KNOW THE FUTURE CLIMATE IS UNKNOWN, AND YOU THINK THE FUTURE CLIMATE IS PREDICTABLE BASED SOLELY ON ESTIMATING THE FUTURE LEVEL OF CO2 IN THE AIR … and never mind that the computer game “CO2 controls the climate” predictions have been grossly inaccurate for the past 30 years!
Dear Richard Greene,
Firstly, you say I’m not friendly, but really, you are the grammatically incorrect unfriendly one here (“you are just a leftist dimwit appealing to authority by pretending to be a scientist and promoting a book that no one ever heard of”). Why would you say something offensive like that? Especially considering this is a standard textbook most college students on this topic are familiar with (yes I’ve read it).
You complain about the lack of science. So let’s get into the chemistry shall we? If you would just turn to chapter six, page 204, you will see there is plenty of detailed discussion about how chemicals other than CO2 influence the climate. Why don’t you take a look and let me know what specifically you don’t understand and we’ll take it from there. Just a little preview of what real science you will find:
Chapter 6 Chemistry of the Troposphere
6.1 Production of Hydroxyl Radicals in the Troposphere 205
6.2 Basic Photochemical Cycle of NO2, NO, and O3 209
6.3 Atmospheric Chemistry of Carbon Monoxide 211 6.3.1 Low NOx Limit 214 6.3.2 High NOx Limit 214 6.3.3 Ozone Production Efficiency 215 6.3.4 Theoretical Maximum Yield of Ozone from CO Oxidation 219
6.4 Atmospheric Chemistry of Methane 219
6.5 The NOx and NOy, Families 224 6.5.1 Daytime Behavior 224 6.5.2 Nighttime Behavior 225
6.6 Ozone Budget of the Troposphere and Role of NO* 227 6.6.1 Ozone Budget of the Troposphere 227 6.6.2 Role of NOx 228
6.7 Tropospheric Reservoir Molecules 231 6.7.1 H2O2, CH3OOH, and HONO 231 6.7.2 Peroxyacyl Nitrates (PANs) 231
6.8 Relative Roles of VOC and NOx in Ozone Formation 235 6.8.1 Importance of the VOC/NOx Ratio 235 6.8.2 Ozone Isopleth Plot 236
6.9 Simplified Organic/NOx Chemistry 239
6.10 Chemistry of Nonmethane Organic Compounds in the Troposphere 6.10.1 Alkanes 242 6.10.2 Alkenes 247 6.10.3 Aromatics 254 6.10.4 Aldehydes 258 6.10.5 Ketones 259 6.10.6 α, β-Unsaturated Carbonyls 260 6.10.7 Ethers 260 6.10.8 Alcohols 261
6.11 Atmospheric Chemistry of Biogenic Hydrocarbons 261
6.12 Atmospheric Chemistry of Reduced Nitrogen Compounds 265 6.12.1 Amines 265 6.12.2 Nitriles 266 6.12.3 Nitrites 266 6.13 Atmospheric Chemistry (Gas Phase) of Sulfur Compounds 266 6.13.1 Sulfur Oxides 266 6.13.2 Reduced Sulfur Compounds (Dimethyl Sulfide) 267
6.14 Tropospheric Chemistry of Halogen Compounds 270 6.14.1 Chemical Cycles of Halogen Species 270 6.14.2 Tropospheric Chemistry of CFC Replacements: Hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) and Hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs) 272
Second note to BonBon, in response to his April 8 comment:
One again you’ve made a long comment, and even after I challenged you, your April 8 comment still provides NO EVIDENCE you are really a teacher who is knowledgable about climate change in any way.
Once again, you throw out your usual logical fallacy — an appeal to authority — and once again the authority is your “bible” — the ‘magic book’ that will tell everyone everything they need to know about climate change.
This time you actually reproduced a table of contents for one of the chapters — oh, are we impressed by that — a ten year old could look up a book title and cut and paste the contents for one chapter here!
I said in my original comment that I did not read the book, but speculated that it would tell me CO2 is the “climate controller” — I disagree with that because there is almost no evidence in 4.5 billion years of Earth’s climate history that CO2 is, or was ever, the “climate controller”.
Now Mr. BonBon, I may have ridiculed you repeatedly in my comment, because you deserved it, but I never claimed to be friendly.
You claimed to be friendly in your first post here, and have not been friendly at all.
I challenge you to post one paragraph at this website that is actually about climate change — tell us your theory of what causes climate change, and the evidence that supports your theory.
We are al willing to listen, but apparently you have nothing to say?
I’m tired of you plugging “the book” and implying how smart you are because you allegedly read it — teach us something mr. teacher … if you really are a teacher of some sort … I can already tell you are not a good teacher because after all your posts here, the only thing you have taught is … if you have not read “the book”, I will not talk to you about climate change, because you are unworthy of a debate.
I have a free climate change blog for non-scientists.
You could use some training, but I’m sure your mind is closed —
if it’s not in “the book”, it can’t be true.
Your biggest failure, and it is a complete failure, is not recognizing that wild guess computer game predictions of the future climate ARE NOT SCIENCE — and after 30 years of wrong predictions, it is very obvious that GCM models assume CO2 is the “climate controller’, and they are WRONG.
http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com
I use my real name online.
I say what I think, and even write it down in a blog.
Oh, by the way, I could not care less
about what you think about my climate blog.
Now it’s your turn to teach us something about climate change — just one serious paragraph about climate change from you — we’re tired of hearing about the book.
If you are knowledgeable about a subject, you should be able to teach it, using simple language, to people who are not … especially if you are a teacher.
Ha, I’m just trying to imagine a student angrily complain at me that I won’t teach him/her something, but simultaneously refuses to read the required reading materials. You just keep that cognitive dissonance train going Mr Greene. Good day!
BonBon
You are obviously a fraud.
You demonstrate no knowledge of climate change.
You repeatedly plug a textbook its not obvious you have read yourself.
You claim to be a teacher but teach nothing in your comments.
You avoid real debate by telling others of they didn’t read THE BOOK they are not worthy of debate.
You are a typical leftist who claims to be smart but is only “smart” in the tactics of ridiculing others and refusing to debate them on any subject.
You claimed to be friendly in your first post and have never been friendly at all.
Based on the content of your comments you could be a 14 year-old boy who never took a science course.
I never claimed to be friendly.
You are, in plain English, a climate skeptics website troll, and a loser — no knowledge, no debate, lot’s of smarmy put downs and insults under a moniker — that’s BonBon
“…there is a slight increase in the number of skeptics as evidenced by the increased readership at WUWT…”
Sad to say that an increase in readership is not necessarily an increase in skeptics. I’ve got people “following” my page on Facebook that are alarmists. 🙁
Reblogged this on Climatism and commented:
IMPORTANT READ. And Dr Ball is spot on – Mann won hands down. Not through “science” but via politics, fake consensus, emotion (victimhood) and being on the ‘right’ side of the debate.
Mann understands that simple rhetoric and climate taking points will always trump science and observations because most won’t and don’t follow the important intricacies of science and observations. Not because they are unable to follow intellectually but rather they don’t have the time nor the need or passion to dig deeper and see the real truth or the other side of the coin.
IMHO the way to ‘unmask’ the ideologically driven “climate change” charade/scam/hoax is to keep pushing *historical* comparisons.
AGW alarmists detest historical perspectives.
In my ‘debate’ experience AGW alarmists will immediately deflect, smear and slime when challenged with historical comparisons.
Thanks for this spot on essay.
The dispassionate science is great for those of us willing to make the effort to understand it. But, to convince people who are busy living their lives, we need to be more direct in how we transmit the message.
For example, Mike Mann’s Hockey Stick was a fake because
* Mann cherry picked data that looked like a hockey stick
* Mann chopped off the last 20 years of paleo numbers because they disproved his hockey stick
* Mann mixed apples and oranges by tacking on 20 years of actual data to his paleo stuff
And, ClimateGate (https://wattsupwiththat.com/climategate/) exposed Mann as a fraud, using terms like “Mike’s Nature Trick” and “Hide the Decline.”
I think these few lines would convince more people than delivering dry data with little explanation.
No it won’t. Skeptics go after the science, trolls go after the people. You’re suggesting more trolling. Case in point: I’ve never read anything by dr. Mann, and I don’t need to because he is just one random scientist out of thousands. Singling him out is just a sign of weakness in the eyes of most people that you need to convince. See my comment above for a bit more detail.