By Larry Kummer. Posted at the Fabius Maximus website.
Summary: Trump’s election, solidifying the Republican’s dominance at all levels of the US government, has disheartened climate activists. A new article in The Atlantic attempts to build support, but only shows the weakness of their beliefs. Perhaps the skeptics have won this round of the climate wars, but only the weather will determine which side is correct.
For 29 years advocates for public policy changes to fight climate change have struggled to convince the US public to support their agenda. They have failed. Polls show it ranks near the bottom of American’s policy priorities, and the increasingly dominant Republican Party has little interest in their recommendations.
It’s taken a while, but it looks like climate activists have worked through the process of accepting their failure. Paul Rosenberg’s January 2 article at Salon and now Meehan Crist’s article at The Atlantic suggest activists are moving into the fourth stage of the Kübler-Ross process, depression — and their leading edge is moving into the final stage of acceptance — and finding new crusades to wage.
Rosenberg’s article is discussed here. Crist’s article is less interesting, mostly just the usual throwing chaff into debate. But it is revealing in its own way. The opening is a classic tactic by climate activists.
“There has been a subtle shift recently in the rhetoric of many conservative pundits and politicians around climate change. For decades, the common refrain has been flat-out denial — either that climate change is not happening, or that any change is not caused by human activity. Which is why viewers might have been surprised to see Tucker Carlson of Fox News nodding along thoughtfully on January 6 as climate scientist Judith Curry, a controversial figure in climate science, explained, ‘Yes it’s warming and yes humans contribute to it. Everybody agrees with that, and I’m in the 98% [of scientists who agree]. It’s when you get down to the details that there’s genuine disagreement.’”
The first point is an outright lie, evident from his failure to cite any examples. Only a tiny fraction of skeptics believe that “climate change is not happening,.” The climate is always changing. As for the second, there is a fringe among climate skeptics who believe that “any change is not caused by human activity.” But the debate for the past 29 years, since James Hansen warned the Senate in 1988, is and has been about how much of the past warming is anthropogenic — and about forecasts of future temperatures. That’s true not just of skeptics (both scientists and laypeople), but among mainstream climate scientists as well. Let’s review the evidence, starting with what Curry said to Tucker Carlson.
CURRY: “…what you’re seeing is this dominant theme of human caused climate change — which is where all of the research is being directed. And far too little funding and effort going to understanding natural climate variability. That’s my concern. …It’s been warming for several hundred years. The key question is how much of the recent warming, say for the last 50 years, has been caused by humans. My interpretation of the evidence is that we really can’t tell, and I don’t see a clearer signal that is caused by humans predominantly.
“…Humans are contributing something, we don’t know how much. From the evidence that I’ve seen, I don’t think that it’s the dominant cause. …It’s warming, humans contribute to it. Everyone agrees with that, I’m in the 90%. It’s when you get down to the details that there is genuine disagreement that is really glossed over in the media.”
The Summary of Policymakers in IPCC’s AR5 Working Group I said “It is extremely likely (95 – 100% certain) that human activities caused more than half of the observed increase in global mean surface temperature from 1951 to 2010.” More relevant to attempts to control CO2 emissions, chapter 10 said “more than half of the observed increase in GMST {global mean surface temperature} from 1951 to 2010 is very likely due to the observed anthropogenic increase in GHG {greenhouse gas} concentrations.”
In a 2012 survey of approximately 6,550 scientists studying climate change, 66% believed that greenhouse gases caused over 50% of this warming. Only 12% believed GHGs caused less than 51% of this warming. Another 10% said “unknown”, 9% said “don’t know”, and 3% said other. More interestingly, they asked how confident these scientists were in their conclusion that over 51% of the warming resulted from increased GHG: 34% were virtually certain, 32% were extremely certain, 20% said very likely, 8% said likely, Curry clearly holds a minority opinion, but has company among other climate scientists.
But activists such as Crist have good reason to focus on past warming: there is little agreement about forecasts of future warming. That is so important to hide that there are few surveys of scientists about this key point. The dynamics of future warming are the “details” that Crist tries to conceal. Curry explains at her website.
“Our ability to predict the effect of increasing CO2 is very limited. The IPCC AR5 puts the value of equilibrium climate sensitivity between 1.5 – 4.5 C, with ‘likely’ confidence, implying significant probabilities outside this range. Referring to this as very limited ability to predict the effect of additional CO2 on climate is not only defensible, but it is in accord with the IPCC’s own conclusion on this.”
After a long discussion of past climate (ignoring the key issues), Crist gives this astonishing quote.
“But according to Maureen Raymo of Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, we know why climate changes naturally, and non-human activity can’t explain the rapid changes observed in the past century. “The Ice Ages happen due to subtle changes in the sun-earth distance that unfold over thousands of years, and which can lead to sometimes rapid climate change, when thresholds are crossed.” These cycles are still happening, but “the same factors that cause these huge Ice Age swings could not possibly be invoked to explain the warming we now see.”
Crist does not tell us who says that the same factors causing the “huge Ice Age {temperature} swings” explain the present warming. To say that climate scientists understand the cause of the massive ice ages is irrelevant to explaining the relatively tiny 2% increase since the mid-19th century (CO2 levels increased steeply only after 1950). But Crist’s analysis gets even stranger.
“As Gavin Schmidt, Director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Principal Investigator for the GISS ModelE Earth System Model, put it, ‘In science, nothing is ever known perfectly. Is there remaining uncertainty in the exact value of gravity? Yes. But to something like the fourth decimal place. It doesn’t matter. So the question is: Is the remaining uncertainty relevant to any policy decision anyone would want to make? And the answer is: no.’ …
“According to Schmidt, ‘To say that science isn’t settled on things people are still researching is totally irrelevant. Does the earth orbit the sun? There’s no substantial ambiguity about the answer to that question, despite the fact that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of scientists working on gravity. There are lots of interesting things about gravity, it’s just that that is not one of them. There are lots of interesting things about climate change, and adaptation, and interactions between air pollution and clouds, but they’re just not relevant to the question, which is: Is what’s going on related to humans? And the answer is: Yes, it is.’”
It is absurd to consider scientists’ understanding of gravity, with their history of remarkable predictions (e.g., the New Horizons space probe’s journey to Pluto and beyond), equivalent to their understanding of climate — with a history of false or unproven predictions. It’s the kind of exaggeration which has produced three decades of failure for climate crusaders.
There is a second level to this. Public policy decisions about climate change — and the massive efforts proposed to fight it — require forecasts of future warming with proven reliability. Equating climate science with gravity is propaganda, not evidence. That Schmidt resorts to such rhetorical tricks shows the weakness of his belief.
Crist concludes with one of the oddest statements I have seen from a climate activist.
“The recent shift in conservative rhetoric exploits legitimate scientific uncertainty that most scientists agree is irrelevant to crafting responsible climate policy. Despite overwhelming evidence, many conservatives are still willing to ignore scientific consensus and stall political action.”
Crist quotes one scientist, and from this concludes that “most scientists agree”. That’s a guess, or a lie, or perhaps “fake news”. As for his last sentence, what is this “scientific consensus” about the need for policy action? Crist does not tell us, let alone give any evidence for it. As with Schmidt’s claims, that these are strongest claims Crist can give for his beliefs show their weakness.
Crist begins by mocking a distinguished scientist, but in 1900 words she presents no rebuttal to Curry’s concerns.
Are activists grieving for their failure?
In December 2015 I wrote that Activists go thru 5 stages of grief for the climate change campaign. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. We all have heard years of denial and anger. There was a brief period of bargaining, with activists attempting to deal with skeptics. Now we are in depression, and for a few — acceptance, as they find new crusades to pursue. Several recent articles support that theory. Crist’s conclusion, citing as his authority that not-a-climate-agency, the US military, show depression and perhaps acceptance.
“In September 2016, carbon-dioxide levels in the air crossed the dreaded 400 ppm threshold, and we are not likely to dip back below that level in our lifetimes. Crossing this red line signals an irrevocable shift toward an increasingly unrecognizable planet. …According to the Pentagon’s 2014 Climate Change Adaptation Roadmap, climate change will cause catastrophic changes to Earth’s ecosystems and wreak havoc on human populations, including famine, mass migration, and war. A carbon tax may be too little, too late, …”
Our dysfunctional response to climate change shows the decay of America’s ability to see and respond to our environment. We need a reality-based community. It won’t build itself. It won’t happen soon.
See Curry’s interview. Judge for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wed1xoB0fcM
For More Information
For more information about this vital issue see The keys to understanding climate change, see my posts about forecasts of the future world, and especially these posts about the campaign for public policy action to fight climate change — how it went wrong and how it can be fixed…
- Ten years after Katrina: let’s learn from those predictions of more & bigger hurricanes.
- Manufacturing climate nightmares: misusing science to create horrific predictions.
- Can the Left adapt to the Trump era? Watch their climate activists for clues.
- Good news for the New Year! Salon explains that the global climate emergency is over.
- The bottom line: How we broke the climate change debates. Lessons learned for the future.
- Important: Climate scientists can restart the climate change debate – & win.
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It should be very worrying that prof. Curry does not know what is the warming impact of CO2. If she would know that number, anything else is related to natural causes. The original quality control in science has been that a scientist will carry out the same calculations as presented in a new theory, if he/she has any doubts. So, the question is, if Curry has carried out these kind of calculations? Has anybody else carried out? What are the results?
Or, is there any climate change science? Is it only question of opinions. It looks like that.
There is no evidence of any measurable warming impact of the measured increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.
What portion of zero is attributable to mankind is ergo moot.
We can disagree about the temperature increase but there has been warming. Alarmists and IPCC say t hast it is all because of CO2.
“there has been warming”
There has been warming since the Little Ice Age. Prior to that, the Medieval Warming Period, the Roman Warming Period, the Minoan Warming Period, and the twin peaks of the Holocene Optimum were all warmer.
Most of the Eemian inter-glacial periods was warmer than the Holocene.
53 million years ago the Arctic Ocean was a swamp.
The planet was once a molten ball of magma.
To claim that there has been warming one must first declare the “since”.
There is no warming that can be attributed to CO2 increase. The ice core records show that warming precedes CO2, not the other way around. The so-called “warming” has been flat for 18 years, while CO2 continues to climb.
Everytime I post on the Fabius Maximus website I get banned. His arguments boil down to Experts tell me this, I don’t question experts, you aren’t a climate scientist (whatever that is), so I’m right you are wrong.
I pointed out that is a science is understood, it can be modeled.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/climate-science-on-trial-if-something-is-understood-it-can-be-modeled/
I pointed out all the problem with the NOAA Data.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/02/12/climate-science-behaving-badly-50-shades-of-green-the-torture-timeline/
I challenged him to refute a single challenge to the “science”
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/01/17/climate-science-on-trial-the-smoking-gun-files/
I may not be a “climate scientist” but I have far more experience with multivariable modeling and quantum physics than those boys at the IPCC appear to have.
BTW, Fabius Maximum is the Roman General chosen by the Fabian Socialists as their role model. Basically, Fabians seek to undermine and deceive instead of facing the debate head on. Fabian Maximus was defeating Hannibal by avoiding to fight him, just like Climate alarmists avoid real debates about man-made climate change.
BTW, just watch, the Editor from Fabius Maximus will respond to this message saying everything I said was a lie. Typical, predictable and expected.
Did you try posting a comment with a quote from Judith Curry?
Sheri,
I would post a comment from CO2 citing any scientist. Certainly one citing Curry (btw, who disagrees with most of his claims in the thread discussed), who I personally know well. She’s the climate scientist I cite the most frequently..
Instead he makes big claims, When called on them, he moves on to make new and equally big (often bogus) claims.
Life is short. There are many place he can chatter to his heart’s content. The FM website isn’t one of them.
I don’t know if I actually quoted her, but I sourced her website and the comments from Bates post on her site. The guy will only accept “agree with me or you’re gone.” I am always getting “moderated” for raising legitimate questions. It is easier to censor than debate.
Sheri, this post references Judith Curry’s post. It was simply ignored and I was “moderated.”
I pointed out all the problem with the NOAA Data.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/02/12/climate-science-behaving-badly-50-shades-of-green-the-torture-timeline/
Editor of the Fabius Maximus, you claim:
“Instead he makes big claims, When called on them, he moves on to make new and equally big (often bogus) claims.”
Please provide an example where I make “big claims” and don’t back them up? Everything I state is extremely well documented and backed up. Here is the website to back everything up. As I’ve said before, refute a single claim I make.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/
Facts are, any science that is valid and “settled” can demonstrate their theory through a model. The IPCC Climate Models don’t even come close to accurately modeling the climate, not even close. You are defending a settled science that can’t even hindcast, let alone forecast. That is a legitimate comment. It may be a “big and bogus” claim to you, but that is game over for any objective person seeking the truth. I would be interested in your explanation why you support a “settled science” that can’t even produce a valid model. I won’t hold my breath. As I’ve said, it is easier to run from a valid debate.
BTW Mr Watts, feel free to re-post my article that addresses the issue was are discussing and let the people decide if I’m making big and bogus claims.
Feel free to cross post any of these posting. If I am making big and bogus claims, I’d like someone to point them out to me.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/
“Everytime I post on the Fabius Maximus website I get banned. His arguments boil down to Experts tell me this, I don’t question experts, you aren’t a climate scientist (whatever that is), so I’m right you are wrong.”
He laid that sh1te on me precisely once – apparently the fact that I disagree with Gavin Schmidt makes my opinion worthless, so now I just regard him as yet another waste of bandwidth with a grossly inflated idea of his own importance in the scheme of things and don’t bother with his prolix prognostications.
In any case, there is no point whatsoever attempting to discuss science with someone who is scientifically illiterate.
Yep, welcome to exile. Thanks for the comment.
The other thing he does is his false attempts at equivalency between left and right politically.
He will admit that the left has flaws, but every time he does so he has to soften the blow by pointing out that the right has similar flaws, even if he has to make up the evidence to prove it.
Yes, the comment editor a Fabius Maximus is a authority expert drone, his choice of expert of course. When he loses a point he quickly launches and ad hom attack and deletes your posts.
He’s even put up links and posts that undermine the very points he’s claiming to make. On the mirror board at the site we scuffled over the dating of the politicization point of climate science which he dates as “the 1980’s”. This is patently false, I provided numerous links to much earlier periods of carbon tax ambitions over “pollution” and the 70’s “ice age” agenda which is an ancestor of the current warming/change agenda.
It’s curious that the site does put up seemingly moderate to even skeptical content only to have a bully and thug on the moderation. You can visit the thread yourself to see the many straw man and accusatory methods involved.
One of my themes that I’ve had with Anthony here as well, the sanctity of Dr. Curry and her ingrained luke warm histography of the climate agenda and the over stating of the significance of actual hard science both now and at any point in the warming agenda history. It’s was and is mostly politics which both luke warmers and advocate warmers remain in yes……..deep “denial”.
Coincidently, and this only came in passing, he carries the major torch for New Deal Keynesianism and Paul Krugman as the perverse inheritor of the mantel for that cause as well.
So we’re back to the thematic point, aside from irrational green/left agenda we are saddled with parties who support them as resistance of the most nuanced kind with an orthodox all their own. “it’s about science” the mantra plays out. I’m sorry, the Happer/Linzen/Trump wing matters. The Fabius Maximus and WUWT Curry worship society are past peak editorially on the core of the Climate War.
co2islife February 15, 2017 at 3:38 am
You are so wrong on Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cunctator and the so called “Fabian Socialist” Roman politics did not work that way.
First he belonged to the Patrician faction of Roman society not the Plebeians
Hannibal destroyed every army the Roman Senate sent against him. By avoiding battle Fabius Maximus bought Rome that most precious gift time. Also Roman field commanders were elected. Next the army was not Manipular legion at that time, it was still based on the Hastatii, Principes and Triarii formations. Thus the soldiers were citizens of various age and economic status within the Republic. Since they were called away for year after year to stand on a hill merely watching Hannibal, Fabius Maximus grew unpopular in favor Of the upstart Scipio.
Fabius Maximus pinned Hannibal in Italy, for ten years. During that time Scipio took Spain and prepared for the final invasion of Carthage.
No comparison between Roman political factions and our political parties/NGOs
michael
You missed the meaning of my comment. Facts are that Fabian Socialists are named after him. Their tactics are deceit, deception, and undermining by not debating. They chosen symbol is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. That was my point, I wasn’t trying to give a history lesson.
Avoiding debate isn’t unique to Fabius Maximus, it is common for the left. I’ve faced it many times. Here is a recent example of Dr Willie Soon at the American Freedom Alliance. No one would debate him. I wonder why if this is settled science. It should be easy to win the argument.
https://youtu.be/TVdKuNLmcCc?t=4m23s
Climate activists’ final act, as they move into the last stage of grief
sounds like the commies at jonestown prior to the last coolaid
seriously it does , read the wiki on jonestown
The solution to the confusion over the characterization of skeptics as “deniers” would be removed if you labelled them correctly as “lukewarmists.” It is the alarmists who have claimed that “deniers” deny any human effect. That simplfies their arguments immensely.
They’ve been depressed from the very outset – primarily by their diet of sugar washed down with alcohol.
Its got all the classic signs – muddled thinking, buck-passing, unwillingness & inability to both argue a point or defend it, inability to take on new ideas and endlessly call on consensus, scientists and The Computer Says. Nobody in their right mind will pick a fight with A Computer – they know that and try to capitalise on it.
They cannot argue a point and if you try to push the point, fists will fly – just like drunks on a night out.
Not at the very least, the huge over-reaction to an imagined problem – the over active startle response characteristic of dope-heads and others on depressant substances.
Something to think about –
Maybe some of us (50% of UK womenfolk certainly) will know about anti-depressants, Prozac, Fluoxetine etc.
OK.
So how can 20 milligram daily of that stuff cure depression when doctors will say its OK to consume 20 grams per day of a known depressant such as alcohol.
Oh yes drinkers will pipe up loudly, 20 gram per day maybe doesn’t harm the body, but, what damage does it do to the mind?
To an entire population……………
this is totally off topic, but inspired by your screen name, Peta from Cumbria. Joe Bob Briggs is a very funny writer from Texas, but he also makes good points. His most recent piece was basically about how, over the last 3 centuries or so, all of Cumberland (now Cumbria) packed itself up, left England, and moved to Kentucky.
http://takimag.com/article/a_brief_history_of_the_redneck_joe_bob_briggs/print#axzz4YlHw3upe
If you haven’t been to the area, you probably wouldn’t know that the biggest river in southern Kentucky is the Cumberland. There’s a reason for that.
“They cannot argue a point and if you try to push the point, fists will fly – just like drunks on a night out.”
Well that’s the sort of reception I get from skeptics when I challenge their points with links to science papers…
Griffie, a link to a Sierra Club press release is not a link to a scientific paper.
Nor is a link to the Guardian or Wikepedia – two more of Grifter’s go-to authorities on climate “science”.
Neither are indirect references to AWEA, CanWEA and EWEA information. Remember what you posted regarding Dr. Arlene King in Ontario, Canada?
MarkW & catweazle666
GOSH DARN IT – YOU’VE PROVEN GRIFFS POINT: every time he is silly enough to make a stupid statement on WUWT, somebody hurts his feelings by pointing it out.
I vote we give Griffy a participation trophy if he agrees to go away.
I will admit that I did not read the Crist article, however from the analysis, I think Larry has mis-catagorized her stage. She seems to be in the bargaining stage – pleading to just accept any part of their narrative. I think she has a long way to go to get to acceptance. There is no acceptance in her writing.
Phil,
You might be right. These things are subjective at best, and difficult to determine from one article. We need to see the trend in her — and other activists — over the next year of so. That’s why I describe this as a theory:
Climate, what is it?
Oh you say, addressing stupid peta from Newark (the Nottinghamshire one), “Climate is the 30 year average of weather”
Alright then I say, “What’s the answer, what is today’s ’30 year average?”
Furthermore, I say BS. You/anybody hasn’t got that answer and not least, hasn’t got a frigging clue about how to work it out. Admit it. And furthermore, temperature is not climate.
Why do I say that?
Picture yourself cast into an entirely new (to you) location, somewhere & *anywhere* on this Earth.
You may wonder, will I survive here?
So, you look around, at the plants, the animals, you feel the temperature compared to the height of the sun, you examine the dirt, are you on a hillside, facing which way, are the trees bent over, are there trees, are there lakes, how fast are the rivers & streams running etc etc etc
Within a few hours of doing this, you ‘know’ what the Climate is at your new location. And the biggest clue is surely The Plants around you.
You DO NOT need to stand around measuring temperature to 1/1000 of a degree, playing with a supercomputer and drawing endless tedious straggly little graphs for 30 years to tell you about The Climate.
2nd big idea from me today – Maybe plants control the climate.
Maybe we get it all wrong when we say “Oh I know why plants don’t grow in the Sahara, its got cr4p climate.”
Its the other way round, the Sahara has a cr4p climate because there are no plants there.
For muddled, slow and depressed minds, its far too big an idea. Too much hard work. Lets just blame everybody else via their ’emissions’
“And furthermore, temperature is not climate.” This is why “climate change” is more appropriate than “global warming.”
“This is why “climate change” is more appropriate than “global warming.”
The only way “climate change” would be appropriate is if the climate never changed until now.
The Earth’s climate has been changing since the beginning of time, long before humans came on the scene.
“The Earth’s climate has been changing since the beginning of time, long before humans came on the scene.”
And has resulted in the extinction of millions of species of plants and animals. It would be nice if this particular course of it, caused by homo sapiens sapiens, did not result in the extinction of said species. It would also be nice if it did not cause widespread human suffering and death, or the loss of significant amounts of the population’s wealth and possessions.
If you’re trying to argue that GW is no big deal because it has happened before, I would question your logic.
“If you’re trying to argue that GW is no big deal because it has happened before, I would question your logic.”
No, I’m just arguing that GW is natural, because there is no evidence that humans are causing the Earth’s climate to warm or change.
If you have some evidence that shows otherwise, I would be happy to consider it.
All the points and counter points are based an the unsubstantiated conclusion that warming is bad.
Griff:
=====
Is that really the case? [that most skeptics accept climate is changing all the time] The majority certainly don’t believe it is warming… therefore though they claim to believe it always has been changing, they don’t think it is changing right now…
=====
The transition from permanent global warming drought conditions to global warming flood and rain conditions in south east Australia where I live occurred in the middle of a long period when the global averaged temperature–a mathematical abstraction–didn’t change in a statistically significant way.
The global averaged temperature, the abstraction you erroneously conflate with “climate change,” is just an index with no predictive utility. It tells you nothing at all about what’s happening in the real world at any location; it’s just the number you’re left with when you average out thermometer readings, adding post-normal adjustments to make every year then”hottest year evah” until we submit to the cult and pay our tithes.
But it tells you nothing about the world, Griff.
That’s why our permanent global warming drought came to an end (in floods, just like California), why snowfalls became no longer just a thing of the past, why global warming winters started getting colder instead of milder, why Antarctic sea ice extent continued to increase, why Arctic sea ice extent continued to fluctuate, why Alpine snow conditions in 2008 were “best in a generation,” all happening while “global averaged temperature”–that meaningless metric– remained essentially flat.
Maggie Thatcher started banging on about this garbage 30 years ago, before China started ramping up CO2 output at a fantastic rate. And here we are at a petty sub-optimal 400ppm, with more or less the same kind of weather we had back then.
Btw, Griff: belief is a religious endeavor, not a scientific one.
I don’t believe the abstraction of weather over time we call “climate” is “warming.”
A good example of how skeptics believe climate is changing all the time, as opposed to the warmists who think in only a straight-line functions, take the drought in California.
The much-repeated warmist position was that the drought was now permanent, and that climate change was the culprit, and water shortages would be the result from now on.
Skeptics never denied that there was a drought, but also believed that it was most likely due to natural cycles, which cause the climate to always change from day to day and year to year. If the warmists were correct, then permanent water shortages needed to be dealt with. If the skeptics were correct, then the drought conditions would at some point reverse and turn back to wet conditions, with no action needed by man to help it along.
So hmmm, which position ended up being the correct one?
It seems to me the basic state of California and Australia in the warming world is drought and drought with heatwaves – interrupted by extreme precipitation.
For example: We may find California may be having the same amount of rain over a ten year period, but getting no rain for 9 years then 10 years worth in a short period is not the same as the good old average rainfall we used to get, with just about ‘enough’ every year…
what do you mean “used to get”??? Look at any 100 year chart for California and the southwest, and you will find that pattern has *always* been the long term norm.
You seem to be one of those people who think that all history began in year 2000.
WWS, you have to remember being a warming alarmist, like Griff, requires one to be completely ignorant of history. It’s why the medieval warm period and the little ice age had to “disappear”, its why the past has to keep being adjusted colder, etc. because history shows that their “unprecedented” narrative has many precedents.
Drought and flood has always been normal for California.
‘the same as the good old average rainfall we used to get, with just about ‘enough’ every year…”
What total, complete and utter drivel!
Crass, even by your standards.
You really believe that there was a time when everywhere on Earth – particularly California – got just about ‘enough’ every year?
Yes, from your abysmal posting history I really do believe you really are that stupid and ill-informed!!
Griff February 15, 2017 at 8:20 am
My first trip to California was in 1979. The restaurants were not serving water unless asked, instead they were recommending their local wines because of the ahem, drought.
so whats new?
michael
Griffy
It seems to me that the geology of California is more important than the weather/climate/whatever-we’re-calling-it-this-week.
The 1940 population of CA was about 7M (2016 is 38M) and they were already running out of water. Read you history.
@ur momisugly Editor of the Fabius Maximus website February 15, 2017 at 12:10 am
Your comments also show that Spell-grammar catchers cannot catch stupid pomposity, yet, either.
T-Man
T-man,
“cannot catch stupid pomposity, ”
We are all awed by your logic!
If you have an objection, why not state it? I’ll bet you can do better than schoolyard insults.
Sigh. What takes center stage is an argument over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is no visible marker in the trend that identifies unusual human-caused separate from expected natural interstadial warming, ergo invisible angels. And the amount of that warming is tiny, ergo how many angels are dancing. In addition, the catastrophic portion is also tiny, ergo the head of the pin. It is appropriate to call those who fund the research into this fantasy pinheads.
We know there is more CO2 and that the CO2 comes from humans. We know it is warming and that CO2 is the only reasonable cause of the warming.
Argument from ignorance.
Strangely appropriate for Griffie.
There are dozens of reasonable explanations for the warming.
The mere fact that the world has warmed more, and faster in the past is sufficient to disprove your belief that it must be CO2 this time.
“Reasonable” ?
Really ?
Who is WE?! You, Santa, and the tooth fairy? Did I leave someone out? GK
And there in a nutshell is the CAGW argument, as vacuous and unscientific as it is. No wonder the “likely” value of the amount of warming due to CO2 (the critical parameter in the whole CAGW conjecture) is 1.5C – 4.5C. That’s quite a spread for something that is supposedly calculated from basic physics. I wonder how much bigger that spread would be for the “highly likely” value? Might even include zero.
Oops, meant to say “due to doubling of CO2” above.
Combustion products of organics are primarily H2O and CO2. From your ‘statement’, we can equally assert
“We know there is more H20 and that the H20 comes from humans. We know it is warming and that H20 is the only reasonable cause of the warming.”
Your ‘train of causation logic’ fails the most basic of tests.
B O L L O C K S !
Is that going to be the go to phrase for the next few weeks? ;*)
MarkW February 15, 2017 at 12:15 pm
Is that going to be the go to phrase for the next few weeks? ;*)
yes. 😀
Griff,
We also know that the warming started long before the modern increase in atmospheric CO2. So your correlation = causation argument is a bust. Then we are presented with the great leap of induction of CO2 being “the only reasonable cause of warming” dismissing natural climate variability. So who is the climate denier here?
No wonder Griff posts anonymously
How do you know that global temperatures are a function of atmospheric CO2 concentration and not vice versa?
MarkW “There are dozens of reasonable explanations for the warming.”
Can you name one?
Griff reminds of a cat walking past a dogs home where the dogs are contained behind a chain link fence. The cat only has to wink and the dongs go crazy trying to bite their way through the wire. Griff is one powerful person.
@Robert Kernodle: Your graph shows an increase of 23 ppm for CO2 over a period of 8000 years; we’re talking about an increase of 120 ppm over a single century, 400 times faster. The two situations are not comparable. That’s why the “historic data” touted by GW skeptics does not apply; the Earth has never before had a planet-wide industrial civilization releasing tens of gigatons of new CO2 into the atmosphere every year.
Gareth,
Great intellectual fact filled rebuttal – not! So all you still have is fear and loathing. Maybe I should add to that insults and lies.
No, you’re arguing that at some time in the distant past there was a very different (slower) global warming. That casts no light whatsoever on the current situation.
There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed and published papers that make it clear that GW is caused by human activity. Read some of them. I’d suggest the journals Nature and Science; they tend to publish more simplified papers that non-specialists can understand.
My university makes these journals and about ten thousand others available to alumni over the Internet; yours may also, if you attended a college.
We know there is more CO2. We do not know it all comes from Man.
You need a course in science 101.
Where else? I’ve heard no other suggestions for sources for the extra 25 gigatons of CO2 per year, or any fraction thereof.
YOu just said it. We do not know. There is a lot more we do not know than we know. And until you can understand that, you will always get it wrong.
It is not an admission of fault to say you do not know. It is an honest assessment.
But we do know; it’s coming from human activity. You’re making the claim that that’s wrong, that a significant portion of it is coming from somewhere else. Apparently you have no idea where, you just want to claim it’s from somewhere we don’t know about.
I suppose it’s brave of you to admit you don’t know, but it utterly invalidates your claim. Of course we were already aware that there’s a great deal more that you don’t know than that you do know.
Tag it and bag it. If you cannot, you not only are lying, you clearly are clueless. We can suspect. But so far, not even mann has proven it. Because the proof does not exist.
It is suspected. But it is not known. if it was, you could easily point out every extraneous molecule of CO2 that was a result of man’s activities, versus natural. Yet you cannot. Why? No one can.
You have a lot to learn about science. If you suspect something, you create an hypothesis. Then you test it to see if it holds up. None of which has been done. A man-made CO2 molecule is identical to a naturally occurring one.
Your ignorance is on display.
Science does not include the concept of “proof.” That is found only in mathematics and courts of law.
We can measure the amount of CO2 produced by human activity and the amount by which the CO2 in the atmosphere increases; they match. No additional source is needed to balance the books.
Heh.
False equivalency. I can prove your finger prints are not mine. And that is science. So your flippant remark is not only wrong, it is a non sequitur. Second, I did not challenge you to tell me how much CO2 humans expel. I said identify the molecules. You are now saying you cannot. You can only tell us how MUCH, which was never in the debate. Stop trying to move the goal posts.
And my final statement still stands. You have a lot to learn about science.
Interesting choice of example; fingerprinting is extremely inexact and error-prone. When I was at Univac we worked on the new FBI fingerprint DB out in West Virginia. Our judicial system is considering discarding the use of fingerprinting.
I take it you know nothing about mathematics or the law, don’t understand what “proof” means.
If you pour a quart of water into an already-full bucket and it overflows a quart, you don’t need to show that the water molecules that came out were the same ones you put in. It is beyond question that you caused the bucket to overflow.
If there’s anything at all to genetics, none of your grandchildren would stand a chance of being admitted to Brown.
Heh.
Sorry Bob – your waffling is still a non-sequitur. The RECOGNITION of the differences between fingerprints may not be ironclad (it does have the human factor), however the FACT that my finger prints are NOT the same as yours is not debatable. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. You interject the fallacy of man into what is clearly a PROOF. Not of a scientific theory, but of a scientific FACT.
And once again, on the CO2 issue, we are NOT dealing with quantity, but identification. You do not seem to be able to grasp that simple concept. I do not care if you drown yourself in a quart of water. You made a clearly false statement, and I called you out on it. The issue is not quantity, but identity! Try to read that slowly so you can understand it. So far you have failed miserably.
Which is not a good testament to your professors or alma mater.
Now, you want to try again to prove which molecule is human originated and which is natural? Think at least before you answer for a change.
Good example; you displayed a proof that you are not a scientist, and in fact know nothing of science.
No, I simply demonstrated you do not know the difference between hypotheses, theories and facts.
But then you already declared that by trying argumentum ad verecundiam. No one asked, or cares where you had your safe space or have your safe space.
You’ve never heard of carbon-13 and carbon-14, have you? Here’s a very simple explanation, targetted at about 7th-grade level. Read all 12 pages, and then there will be a quiz.
Non sequitur again. I did not ask you for the Baskin Robbins flavors of carbon. You said you knew which molecules were from Man and which were from natural (I know a contradiction that will go over old bob’s head) sources. Man does not create one flavor and one flavor alone. Nor does nature.
Have you had ANY science courses? Either that, or you simply cannot understand the written language. You have YET to answer the initial challenge, and you keep trying to change the subject! Very badly I will add.
You didn’t read the NOAA article I assigned you, did you? Understandable.
Sorry, I only accept assignments from scholars, not BS artists. But then you would not understand that given your background and education. All you know are BS artists.
Yes, they are not stupid enough to qualify for that low institution. I guess it is somewhat good that it is around to admit the less intelligent, as you demonstrated.
Heh.
Religion? Where did that come from? I’m talking about the way science works.
You think that when Einstein hypothesized special and general relativity, it was religious? That’s hilarious. Have you ever met an actual scientist, or taken any kind of science course?
No, you are not. You have lied about the null hypothesis. That is not science. You have stated beliefs as facts. That is not science. Science does not work that way. Where did you get your education? Seriously, you need to learn about science. My admission that I do not know is a lot more intelligent than your false proclamation that you do know. I at least understand how it works, you believe you know everything, and in so doing, prove you know nothing.
When Einstein hypothesized, he did not KNOW! He suspected. He formed an hypothesis and then set out to disprove it, and encouraged all to disprove it! But he died not knowing. Why? Because his theories are not proven! They simply (for the most part) have not been DISPROVEN! And that is how science works.
What you are doing is shamanism. It is not science.
Brown University. My advisor was Leon Cooper, Nobel Laureate for the BCS Theory.
Thanks – I will make sure none of my grandchildren waste their money at that lousy place.
It is odd watching the twists and turns. We will see lots of comments and posts that say skeptics do not question that man is adding to atmospheric CO2, then we get his sort of argument. Just like statements hat skeptics do not dispute warming, or the greenhouse effect, then we will get arguments about hoe IR cannot warm the atmosphere. It is clear that there are plenty of commenters here that question all these things.
As for this one, we KNOW that CO2 is rising (as much as we know anything). We KNOW that man is putting a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. The simplest conclusion is that the extra CO2 comes from man. Now simple isn’t always right, so we do need to check. We don’t just accept the simplest answer. The only way that the increasing CO2 is not coming from man is that it is coming from somewhere else. So scientists have looked at all the places where it could be coming from, and non of them can explain the CO2 with current knowledge.
That does not prove the case as current knowledge is not complete. However, it establishes the man-made theory as the only reasonable one to accept. All loose ends are tied up and we do not have to invent explanation for which there is no evidence. The man made explanation is consistent with all the data and theories we have.
Sure, it might be beamed in by aliens, or maybe there is a fundamental flaw in our understanding and spontaneous matter transmutation is occurring, or maybe there is some other massive source that we are unable to detect for some reason, that just happens to approximately coincide in magnitude with human sources and has occurred at the same time and the sinks are therefore much bigger than we understood them to be. These things are possible, but there is no good reason to believe they are true.
@seaice1: your two recent comments (null hypothesis and CO2 source) are much too cogent, logical, and reasonable for this forum. Remember, mindless parroting of questionable sources is the standard.
“but only the weather will determine which side is correct.” Wouldn’t that be the average of the weather over a variable base period? Weather is only relevant when it shows the planet warming. Otherwise, we’re just confusing weather and climate, aren’t we? (sarc)
“Summary of Policymakers in IPCC’s AR5 Working Group I said” The summary of policymakers is a POLITICAL document NOT based on the science. Plus, the 95% probably has no mathematical or scientific definition—they might as well say “We really, really sure we’re right so believe us. We’re the powerful and we need our jobs and we’re experts on political things”. It has no scientific standing whatsoever.
I like how Gavin compares the certainty of a mature science (gravity and the earth circling the sun) with a new science (climate change) and implies it has equal certainty. He should compare the science of climate change to the state of science prior to Newton.
Regarding: “To say that climate scientists understand the cause of the massive ice ages is irrelevant to explaining the relatively tiny 2% increase since the mid-19th century”: 2% of what? A 2% increase of absolute temperature is about 6 degrees C.
Very good article FM. Judith’s Curry is a classic and courageous scientist having walked back a somewhat more extreme position as the Pause advanced, Climategate exploded and the main CAGW actors got ugly and vindictive. Curry and Pelke Jr. and I’m sure others with moderate, reasonable positions on the status of Climate were pushed out of their disciplines.
It’s not hard to imagine the nasty world this would become if the Totalitarian elites who adopted climate change as their enabling tool were to succeed.
“… only the weather will determine which side is correct.”
100ºF in Mangum, Oklahoma on February 11, 2017. Warm weather.
Bob Munchk,
“100ºF in Mangum, Oklahoma on February 11, 2017. Warm weather.”
I’m sure you know that every day extreme high and low temperature records are set somewhere. Individually they tell us nothing about climate trends, and have zero influence on the public policy debate (which is the subject of this post).
“100ºF in February, in the middle of the US:” spelling my name wrong — good answer.
Bob,
Try reading the text of the comment, not just your name.
Putting effort into spell-checking comments is spending more time on them then they deserve. Who cares?
Tony Heller claimed on Twitter records show it was 99F in Oklahoma in February, 1918.
Good for Tony Heller.
So the 2017 record was caused by increases in CO2 in the atmosphere, according to Bob (I guess that’s what we are to read into his posting). But what caused the 1918 record 99 degree day? That was before we had added any noticeable amount of CO2. There’s no shame is saying you don’t know. But in that case, isn’t it equally possible that whatever it was, caused the 2017 record high temperature? That is the crux of the natural variation argument.
“I guess that’s what we are to read into his posting”
It’s interesting that you would make that assumption. What is your basis?
“But what caused the 1918 record 99 degree day?”
Global warming.
“That was before we had added any noticeable amount of CO2.”
What is your definition of “noticeable?”
OK Bob, I’ll give it one more shot before just giving up on you as a troll.
Your original comment was about a record high temperature in the middle of the US in Feb. Giving the context of the larger conversation it was reasonable to assume you were asserting this was caused by increased CO2 in the atmosphere (aka Global Warming). But rather than argue semantics, why don’t you just explain what your point was?
For the rest of your reply, Global Warming caused warming? Since that would be tautological, I assume you mean warming due to increased CO2 in the atmosphere. Please correct me if I’m wrong and define what you mean by Global Warming.
I said “noticeable” because if I had said “no CO2”, that would have been factually incorrect. Maybe “negligible” is a better term, meaning so little that it made no measurable impact on the average global temperatures.
“why don’t you just explain what your point was?”
That last weekend it was very hot in Oklahoma in the middle of the winter.
“Please correct me if I’m wrong”
I lack the stamina.
“define what you mean by Global Warming.”
An increase in the amount of thermal energy stored in the Earth’s biosphere.
‘Maybe “negligible” is a better term’
Only if you define it. Otherwise it’s just another way of saying it’s your opinion.
OK Bob, you are obviously a troll, just out to waste the time of serious people like myself. I will ignore you from now on. I suggest everybody else does too. Not sure how you get your jollies by doing this, but I refuse to participate in your silly games anymore.
I try not to use adolescent jargon like “LOL,” but I did indeed laugh out loud at that. You’re a member of a tiny and shrinking cadre of people who think they understand science and are smarter than most people who do it for a living. I do enjoy reading the attempts of you and your fellows trying to convince each other that your arguments make sense and that you’re winning the discussion. They don’t, and you aren’t; you’ve long since lost.
Anyone who Paul Penrose disagrees with is a troll by the looks.
You seem to believe that you have said something intelligent.
How much was the old record beaten by? Check the records for nearby days and nearby cities.
You will find that temperature spikes are not at all unusual.
Just because you are ignorant of reality is not proof that you are correct.
“The National Weather Service says the high in Mangum on Saturday reached 99 degrees to tie a record set Feb. 24, 1918, in Arapaho as the highest February temperature ever in Oklahoma.”
http://newsok.com/record-tying-high-temperature-for-february-in-oklahoma/article/feed/1166453
99F in Mangum OK, Feb 11 2017
99F in Arapaho OK, Feb 24 1918
Note – 99F, not 100F. Tied the previous high temp record that occurred in Arapaho OK in Feb 1918.
It was ‘warm weather’ in Oklahoma a century ago also…….
bobmunck February 15, 2017 at 7:27 am
“… only the weather will determine which side is correct.”
100ºF in Mangum, Oklahoma on February 11, 2017. Warm weather.
So did you consider it a pleasant day? Little to hot for me , whats it like today?
michael
One warm day for one city is proof of global warming.
On the other hand two brutally cold winters in a row, for the entire US, is just weather.
“100ºF in Mangum, Oklahoma on February 11, 2017. Warm weather.”
Yeah, now a couple of days later the low-pressure front has passed Oklahoma and Mangum is about 60 degrees. Nothing to see here. Oklahoma gets this weather all the time, decade after decade.
“Republican’s dominance at all levels of the US government”
The Flynn lynching shows the statement above to be pure fiction.
Jst1,
“The Flynn lynching shows the statement above to be pure fiction.”
It is an objective fact based on partisan affiliation of executive and legislative elected officials at the local, state, and Federal level.
Even if the Flynn incident showed power of the Democratic Party, which I doubt, it just means that there are two parties — that neither has tyrannical control over the government.
NO. It shows that the permanent government has it’s own ways of exerting power, regardless of which party is in charge.
Hogwash. It is an objective fact that classified information was illegally released by partisan criminals within one or more of the NSA, CIA, or FBI.
jst1 February 15, 2017 at 10:25 am
NO. It shows that the permanent government has it’s own ways of exerting power, regardless of which party is in charge.
If there was such a thing why would “they” bother? Since this permanent gov. is always going to be in conflict with either party why Flynn?
No any permanent gov only survives by hiding or remaining nonthreatening. The costs to those who instigated this will be greater than any gain from forcing General Flynn to resign.
They must have Pyrrhic king of epirus as a role model
michael
“No, any permanent gov only survives by hiding or remaining nonthreatening. The costs to those who instigated this will be greater than any gain from forcing General Flynn to resign.”
I think the leakers are probably Obama appointees who are still working in the government bureaucracies.
I think this will backfire on whoever did the leaking. There are only so many people who were privy to this information, so they won’t have to look too far.
All Obama appointees should be suspect. They are not on Trump’s side, and may do something to harm his agenda if given the opportunity. Trump needs to clean house throughout the entire bureaucracy. It’s infested with radical Obama leftists.
J Mac. Be careful what you claim to be objective fact. ” It is an objective fact that classified information was illegally released by partisan criminals within one or more of the NSA, CIA, or FBI.” (emphasis mine).
It is not objective fact that the individuals were partisan.
The permanent bureaucracy of the Deep State is conducting a guerrilla campaign against the Trump administration on all fronts, of which the Flynn lynching was just one skirmish.
The weather has already determined which side is correct and it ain’t the alarmists. They are a dead cause walking, zombie-like, and they are still very, very dangerous.
Karl,
“The weather has already determined which side is correct and it ain’t the alarmists. ”
The weather is highly variable. No matter what the climate trends, we could get a few big tropical storms hitting cities during the next year or two. Blamed, of course, on climate change. That might panic people into supporting activists’ programs.
Similar things have happened many times in the past, and can again.
“In September 2016, carbon-dioxide levels in the air crossed the dreaded 400 ppm threshold”
I thought 350 ppm was the dreaded threshold (as in 350.org). Which Rubicon are we not supposed to cross?
When the dreaded 350 ppm threshold was “reached and breached”, it became a mere threshold and tossed down the memory hole (wonder if the wunderkinds have 400.org, 450.org, 500.org parked? Not gonna risk looking….)
The “dreaded” part is only added to the NEXT totally NOT made up measure…
Is Griff a stage of Grieff ?
Inquiring minds want to know !…/grin
‘don’t grieve, organise’
Would it be fair to force the same scaremongers who told us (based on all that science) that there was a permanent drought in California to take some responsibility for moving a public policy forward that meant they didn’t fix a dam because the money was better spent on, I dunno, a conference in an exotic locale?
Forget climate alarmism, that is so last century.
There’s a new alarmist scare they can all migrate to – Asteroid Impact.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4227220/Earth-NOT-ready-asteroid-impact-expert-warns.html
‘It may not be the greatest risk or highest profile short term risk confronting earth, but if you make an assessment of what insurance premium it is worth paying in order to reduce impact, you would come up with a figure of several hundred million euros a year – which the world should be spending to reduce this risk.’
They just have to follow the money….
Problem is they can’t blame asteroid impact on man’s actions, and thus can’t use it as a means of controlling their fellow man.
lawrence,
Asteroids are a real and serious threat, and illustrate the complexity of dealing with shockwaves — low probability, high impact risks. There are many of them, so looking at them individually doesn’t work well (we could go broke fast by “adequately” funding them all). As we should all have learned from the climate wars!
Here are some posts looking at this “threat from the sky”: https://fabiusmaximus.com/tag/asteroid/
Lawrence,
Asteroids are real. They have hit the earth before. They still exist and we have already cataloged many earth orbit crossers, but certainly not all. These are all objective facts. From these it is reasonable to extrapolate that asteroids will strike the Earth again. We don’t know when, or how big they will be. So while it’s probably a good idea to keep a lookout for anything large enough to do real damage, the general prescription of increasing our technology and becoming a multi planet species still applies. Most of these threats, including extreme climate change (like ice ages) are best dealt with in the same way.
We had a big air burst over Russia just a couple of years ago.
Had the rock been a few feet bigger or come down over a more populated area, there would have been deaths from it.
I don’t expect there will ever be Acceptance (stage 5). Nothing comes close to the political and economic power would-be leaders can derive by manipulating our production of CO2.
R Taylor,
“I don’t expect there will ever be Acceptance (stage 5).”
Follow the money. Climate activism is well funded. Continued failure to achieve public policy action will eventually result in the money being re-allocated to other campaigns.
Look at the high profile climate activists. Many of them are in effect paid activists. As budgets change, so will they. Don’t cry for them! They’ll find new crusades to work.
The IPCC has said several times that most climate scientists agree humans are the cause for more than half the warming over the last 100 years. If climate computer models are in line with that vast majority opinion that they claim then the climate computer models would still show some warming if their simulation of human impacts on climate is removed. Because the consensus they claim is not that humans are responsible for ALL the warming, just more than half. So shouldn’t they show the predictions with no human impact along with their predictions with human impact so we can see what delta they are predicting caused by human activities? Since they don’t show predictions with human activities removed people will assume the prediction would be a ZERO increase in global average temperatures with no human impacts, which is not consistent with what they say is the overwhelming consensus.
” the consensus they claim is not that humans are responsible for ALL the warming, just more than half.”
“All of …” is a proper subset of the set “more than half of …”
That is true, but why would you use a phrase that implies something 1/2 of what you really mean, especially in scientific matters? If they really meant ALL or NEARLY ALL, then by scientific practice that is exactly what they should have said, rather than “more than half”, which implies something closer to 51%. Using this type of deceptive language is something that politicians would use, not scientists.
” why would you use a phrase that implies something 1/2 of what you really mean”
Why do you assume that they meant something other than what they said? The message was that human activity is the largest component of warming, the majority of it, and therefore the best place for us to put our effort into. They weren’t trying to convey that it is 50.001% or 75% or 99.999% or 100%. You’re reading something into their statement that isn’t there, and then criticizing what you yourself invented.
bob, do you have a point? Or do you just enjoy making yourself look pedantic?
“do you have a point?”
I’m pointing out that what Steve said in his comment was wrong. Did you not realize that?
“Or do you just enjoy making yourself look pedantic?”
A little precise language makes a nice contrast to the sloppy thinking and writing found in this kind of blog.
We can say with absolute certainty that scientists do not understand the main factors that control climate change. The evidence is the pause, the absence of a hotspot and the failure of many alarmist predictions. The latest models which constitute the best simulation of climate are failures as judged by normal scientific standards.
However, climate science is not normal science. The shocking state of basic measurements, the lack of scientific transparency, proper archiving and quality control suggest poor discipline and sloppy methodology. The culture of cherry picking, data manipulation, deletion of data, intimidation of critics, pal review, bullying of journal editors and publication of misleading results are not accepted in normal science.
Yes, you listed the situation pretty well. I hope that this situation could be solved by starting the investigation about the temperature data sets of GISS. Thereafter everything starts to go forward pretty much with its own weight. Let us hope that Trump can do it. Just official investigation about the GISS versions.