AltUSNatParkService

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach — crossposted from my blog, Skating Under The Ice

Let me start by saying that I’m a huge fan and frequent user of our National Park System. I’m also a dedicated and lifelong conservationist, concerned with our natural environment that is the basis of all life. So please don’t take the following as being opposed to true environmentalism. I’m not. I’m opposed to political activism under the name and imprimatur of the National Park Service.

After the Trump Administration told the Department of the Interior to shut down all their Twitter accounts because they were being used for partisan political purposes by Democratic government employees, some National Park Service employees got in a huff about how their rights were being violated. So they put together a new Twitter account called AltUSNatParkService. Here’s the header on their page, in case they change it:altusnatparkservice

I cracked up when I saw that, I thought “Man, they just hung themselves out to dry, they just blew it bad!”.

Setting that question aside for the moment, under the aegis of this new account they are all about the climate and other virtue-signalling subjects, viz:

altnatpark-2

They’re organizing meetings and the like because of these fears. Gotta say … I’m getting tired of people trotting out their fears and using these fears to justify all kinds of actions. I get it that folks are afraid. And I know that the fear they feel is real. But that is not sufficient reason for me to automatically take their fears seriously and buy into their fright, particularly if nothing untoward has happened to date. It’s just baseless fears.

In any case, they’ve shot themselves in the foot. They are putting themselves out as  if they represent or are part of the real National Park Service, both by their name and even to the extent of using the official arrowhead emblem of the Park Service on their Twitter site, as seen above. Clearly amateur hour. Here’s more about the arrowhead, it’s not some random symbol.

What is the origin of the National Park Service arrowhead?

The arrowhead was authorized as the official National Park Service emblem by the Secretary of the Interior on July 20, 1951. The components of the arrowhead may have been inspired by key attributes of the National Park System, with the sequoia tree and bison representing vegetation and wildlife, the mountains and water representing scenic and recreational values, and the arrowhead itself representing historical and archeological values. Read more about the history of the arrowhead and other elements of NPS visual design.

Why is their using the arrowhead a huge mistake? Because using it is not just a bad idea. It is a crime to use the official NPS “arrowhead” emblem without specific permission from the NPS:

Use of the NPS arrowhead symbol and badge is governed by 36 CFR Part 11Unauthorized use is a criminal offense, punishable in accordance with 18 USC 641 and 701.

And because that defines it a Federal crime (USC for “US Code”), that lets the Administration call in the FBI to identify the anonymous folks behind this account. And being NFS employees they can hardly claim ignorance of the law. When they sign on, in their New Employee Handbook they are given links to the following:

Documents Containing Selected Topic

As a result, it should be very easy to find and fire these government employees for cause, because they are falsely representing themselves by using the official NPS arrowhead, and they know or should know that’s both illegal and wrong. However … civil service laws may get in the way.

And if the civil service laws do get in the way, I sincerely hope Trump adds those laws to his list.

The best part to me about these kinds of spontaneous outbursts of righteous indignation is their generally Darwinian nature … and after eight years of government employees being allowed to run wild as long as it was the approved liberal and Democratic style of wild, I suspect we’ll see more of these outbursts before we run out of candidates for the Bureaucratic Darwin Award.

The tragedy in this is that it detracts from majesty and mystery of the parks that these folks are supposed to protect, and makes them into a political football. That we don’t need.

w.

PS-If you are commenting please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU ARE DISCUSSING. That way we can all understand just what your subject is.

UPDATE: 1/27/17 9:45AM

It seems they had to abandon use of the official park service logo shortly after this post by Willis was published:

altusparkservice-fixed2

And this is what their Twitter page looks like now:

altusparkservice-fixed

Alt-Idiots. They probably aren’t aware of the Acceptable Use Policy for the government run Internet accessible network. That will be their next challenge.

-Anthony

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Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 8:30 pm

It takes some folks a little longer to catch on…

Darrell Demick
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 26, 2017 10:15 am

Just finished moving my entire retirement portfolio into the pulp and paper industry.
Gonna be a big demand for “pink slips” in the near term ……

Rich
Reply to  Darrell Demick
January 26, 2017 12:10 pm

I hope you included Depends in your portfolio. Gonna be some pants wetting/shitting going on too.

Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 26, 2017 12:53 pm

“Never underestimate the power of a large group of stupid people!”Einstein

Danny Thomas
January 25, 2017 8:33 pm

“Use of the NPS arrowhead symbol and badge is governed by 36 CFR Part 11. Unauthorized use is a criminal offense, punishable in accordance with 18 USC 641 and 701.”
Just an indication of ‘too much regulation’. Maybe it’s an atlatl and not an arrowhead at all.
Life is too short to get worked up (on either side) about the minutiae.
Will be happy when we move on and return to discussing the science. We’ll never agree on the politics and associated.

Pauly
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 25, 2017 9:10 pm

“Just an indication of ‘too much regulation’.”
Incorrect Danny. For most government organisations, these symbols are covered by laws equivalent of copyright and intellectual property rights that protect individuals and businesses from having their work copied, stolen, used for illicit purposes, or simply to defraud others. Much like it is an offence to impersonate a member of the police or a military service, or to wear medals representing battle honours that were never conferred.
These symbols are fundamental to the trust these organisations are given by the people of their country. So it is not about too much regulation, because these symbols matter. If you are still unsure about it, check with your nearest veteran.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 25, 2017 10:01 pm

Willis,
While I respect your capability I respectfully disagree. This is not science, today’s or otherwise. Science is why I read here. Very little recently has been so oriented. In fact, IMO, you’re promoting today’s ‘science’ (by your own apparent definition—-> politics). Please utilize your abilities alternatively (or not, your choice).
As we do agree it’s unacceptable, promotion seems like a less than viable use of energies. It only leads to ‘yeah…….our team. Boo, theirs’ which has received much derision under prior administration. This isn’t useful. Your opinion may vary and is valid as is mine. But they’re both just opinions.
We’ve complained for years about the injection of politics and yet here we’re doing the same. Can we not do heighten the discussion? Please ignore this. It deserves not the attention.
Looking forward to reading that which excludes the ‘we won, get over it’ meme. The rest is deletion material. Having been a participant for a relatively short time (+/- 3 years) chastisement of interjection of politics has been a rampant theme. Please don’t provide greater reach under current administration. Bad behavior (no matter the side) does not deserve a larger distribution.
My regards.
Danny

markl
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 9:00 am

Sometimes you have to swim through the crap to get to the clear water.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 25, 2017 10:57 pm

Willis,
Again, and completely with respect: “The climate alarmists have long used the government to spread their radical ideas about the climate. Having often called for the government to get out of the climate advocacy business, I am overjoyed that this is occurring.”
Some radical (IMO), some viable (also IMO).
Where I’m ‘overjoyed’ is when reasonable folks have reasonable discussion about reasonable topics. This topic, IMO, does not deserve the attention. I’m not a fan of promotion of bad behavior (either side).
Trump won. Time to move on. Give the man a chance. Speak up against that which one disagrees, sure. But a post? On this?
How does this post help save ‘billions of dollars’? I don’t see it. This is a gnat.
Should you speak up? You bet. I’ll stand with you if I agree or not w/r/t content. Just as I’ll stand with the scientists in white coats in the middle of a non violent ‘women’s march’ while I whine vociferously about exclusion of the ‘right to lifers’s as that is equally ‘a choice’ under the heading of pro ‘choice’.
“The climate alarmists have long used the government to spread their radical ideas about the climate. Having often called for the government to get out of the climate advocacy business,” yet here we are advocating for an alternative. Advocacy is advocacy and (again IMO) it’s politics informing science. Just once (actually perpetually) the science should inform the science. Politics be damned. WUWT can indeed be more of the same when it comes to a forum for political views. What’s the point? Your voice seems to be saying let’s involve the politics. My voice is saying the politics will never be settled let’s focus on the science. Eventually, filtering out the politics, the science should become settled. It’s not as of today, and interjecting politics to a greater extent insures it won’t.
I respect your view and your input. I don’t think one of us must be ‘wrong’. But continuation of the same only from the other side expecting different results…………well……….you know.
Palestinians and climate sensitivity are ‘off topic’, IMO.
Willis, I appreciate and read your participation. This does not equate to your always being ‘correct’ in your views. I may be off base, but you may be too.
I thank you for the interaction. Would there be more reasonable disagreement as opposed to ‘you’re wrong, I’m right’ (or vise versa) global temperatures may be reduced. 😉

Jeff Mitchell
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 25, 2017 11:04 pm

Willis, you used the following Edmund Burke quote “For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.” I’ve always felt that “necessary for good men to do nothing” is an oxymoron as doing nothing is usually not considered a trait of a good man. Rather, evil will triumph if no one stands against it. Good men, like you, ARE standing against the deceit and corruption of the climate change crowd.

Frederik Michiels
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 12:48 am

imvho: science is a debate. i agree that there is also a political side.
but radically censoring is touching at the right of freedom of speech.
if rightfull AGW skeptics wish to be associated with that, i pass.
just ponder that little detail

JohnKnight
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:55 am

So, let them break the law, Frederik?

DHR
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 5:08 am

Danny Thomas,
“This topic, IMO, does not deserve the attention.” Then why are you giving it so much?

Danny Thomas
Reply to  DHR
January 26, 2017 8:16 am

DHR,
Fair point. Please make note that my ‘attention’ comes in the form of a couple of comments from a post on a very well read website. Distinction?
Had the post not been presented, the comments would not have followed.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:46 am

Frederik, nobody is denying them the right to say whatever they want. However they can be prosecuted for falsely claiming to represent the government while using that free speech.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 11:07 am

Danny is ordering us to shut up. I’d call THAT bad behaviour. Do not feed the troll.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  jorgekafkazar
January 26, 2017 11:32 am

Jorge,
Ordering? I made a suggestion to Willis. He can accept or reject. It seems there are just better uses for ‘one of the best science sites’ with a header stating “The world’s most viewed site on global warming and climate change’.
If you care to ‘feed the troll further’ please share what the beneficial result will be at the end of this thread. Greater edification? Expanded knowledge? Bouncing a ball?
Regards,

Hivemind
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 25, 2017 10:49 pm

It isn’t minutiae. Misuse of Government symbols allows people to impersonate Government organisations, which is exactly what these people are trying to do. Protecting the symbols is fundamental to protecting the integrity of Government operations.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  Hivemind
January 25, 2017 11:00 pm

Hivemind,
Respectfully intended. As a citizen, I pay for it and own it.
As my T-shirt reads: “I AM, We the people”.

Greg
Reply to  Hivemind
January 26, 2017 12:36 am

“… but you can never take our free time”.

Oops, there goes the other foot.
I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that these fools set all this up on work time.
Willis, maybe a direct link to their Twit page and a quick scan of the times they are posting would be of interest.

MarkW
Reply to  Hivemind
January 26, 2017 6:16 am

Danny, then I can go around telling people that I am an FBI agent?
After all, we the people pay for the FBI.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 8:23 am

Mark W,
They clearly state they are ‘alt’ and even comment the ‘official site’ had been ‘taken’.
You can wear FBI ‘branded’ clothing. Stating one is an agent is a different kettle o’ fish.

MarkW
Reply to  Hivemind
January 26, 2017 11:22 am

I can only wear FBI branded clothing if I pay the royalty fee when I buy it.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 11:51 am

MarkW,
Royalty fee? To whom (or what)?
Back to the NPS.
Cannot find the ratified version, but please see section 5.4 and 6.0: https://www.nps.gov/policy/DOrders/DO-52D–45-day.pdf
In part, 5.4: “Within the body of published media when the use is descriptive or referential. This may include, for example, books and news media that reference the National Park Service, provided that it does not imply NPS authorship, review, or endorsement.)
When the Arrowhead is used in these ways, the context must not imply affiliation with or endorsement by the NPS. In addition, the Service may insist that it be accompanied by the registered trademark symbol (®) and/or a credit line or disclaimer stating (for example): “[This organization] is not affiliated with the National Park Service and our [products, services, activities] are not licensed or endorsed by the National Park Service.”
Entities outside the NPS may, with permission, use the Arrowhead to graphically identify a hyperlink to an NPS website, provided that:
 The context does not imply affiliation with or endorsement by the NPS;
 The graphic is accompanied by the registered trademark symbol (®); and
 A disclaimer similar to the example in the previous paragraph is included.”
This is referenced and follow from: https://www.nps.gov/policy/DOrders/DOrder52A.html
An example in action which you may find of interest: https://www.doioig.gov/sites/doioig.gov/files/JonathanJarvis_Public.pdf (cited specifically on page 11 but the balance in an interesting read.)
Now of course we can nitpik from here if this use has been trademarked, disclaimed, and meets the subsection 5.4 requirements but there it is.

Phil R
Reply to  Hivemind
January 26, 2017 8:29 pm

Danny Thomas,
I’ve read your comments and respect your position, but seriously? Do you work in government? Many (if not most) of us who work in the private sector would be fired immediately if we did anything against company policies, and especially if we broke the law. Government employees work also according to rules and law and don’t have any special dispensation to ignore whatever they want to. are you saying that because they are government employees, their free speech rights allow them to break the law with impunity, but since I’m not a government employee I can’t? Sorry, you’re wrong, or you need to get me a government job.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  Phil R
January 27, 2017 6:47 am

Phil R,
Thank you. No I’m not a government employee, have never been. I assure you’d that if an employee of a private firm on their own time (making assumptions here) created an Alt-Exxon or Alt-Greenpeace site I would equally support their right to free speech and opinion. Caveat that they not publish proprietary.
I don’t suggest impunity, but neither do I suggest greater censoring.
IMO (FWIW) much like the marches this will likely wind up much ado. It’s what changes (if any) in real world that come about that matters.
I don’t follow any of the groups by the way. I respect that they choose involvement. Just like I respect Willis’ choice to ‘sound the alarm’ over the chosen methods. I just think there are improved ways for each to go about their business and Willis, to his credit accepted that criticism while agreeing to disagree and we’ve moved on.
Appreciate your viewpoint.

davideisenstadt
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 3:29 am

the atlatl was a tool that increased the utility (the speed, and range) of thrown spears, it wasnt a tip of a projectile.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  davideisenstadt
January 26, 2017 6:16 am

But the points of atl-atl projectiles (often called darts) do resemble arrowheads, albeit usually larger.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  davideisenstadt
January 26, 2017 7:25 am

David,
Thank you for the clarification. I should have use the term atlalt dart or atlatl dart point.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  davideisenstadt
January 26, 2017 7:57 am

Dart is to atl-atl as arrow is to bow.

MarkW
Reply to  davideisenstadt
January 26, 2017 11:22 am

An arrow is an arrow is a dart. It doesn’t matter whether it’s launched from a bow or an atlatl.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  davideisenstadt
January 26, 2017 11:28 am

Mark,
Atl-atl projectiles are shaped quite differently from arrows. They can look more like spears or javelins than arrows. Atl-atls are also called spear-throwers.
Crossbow arrows are called bolts because they too are shaped differently from arrows.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  davideisenstadt
January 26, 2017 11:56 am

A hunting dart might be nine feet long.

MarkW
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 6:14 am

Try using the McDonald’s symbol on your web site and see how long it takes before the lawyers are knocking.
The AGW has been about politics from the beginning.

Hans
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 6:31 am

Try using the Olympic rings and they will come a knockin as they have done several times in the past.

Phil R
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 8:31 pm

+many

texasjimbrock
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 6:30 am

An atlatl? Your eyes must be giving you trouble. An atlatl is a spear-thrower.

Reply to  texasjimbrock
January 26, 2017 5:33 pm

Maybe it’s an alt-atlatal?

Chuck in Houston
Reply to  texasjimbrock
January 27, 2017 6:43 am

James Schrumpf – “Maybe it’s an alt-atlatal?”
Too funny. +1

Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 6:40 am

I recently had an exchange like this with an engineer at another website, who was all enthusiastic about new technology to control certain power-plant emissions (i.e., CO2 emissions). I brought up the issue of the basis of such technology’s being in question, and he accused me of focusing on politics rather than science.
My question to him was, as it is to you, … when politics dictates HOW science is applied, how can we NOT focus on politics in the same context of science ? We simply cannot separate the politics, since politics ENABLES science to operate in the real world. When politics abuses this, then it abuses/misuses/substitutes for science, and this is an insult to science that needs to be dealt with, before science can progress.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Robert Kernodle
January 26, 2017 12:21 pm

When politicians force people to give up their money either in taxes or costs due to regulation, it is incumbent on those politicians to to insure it is necessary and at the least cost. If you believe in CAGW then spending is ok, if you don’t believe then the spending is not ok.
I would have asked the engineer to elucidate on the benefits of higher CO2 to see if he had ever considered those or just took the word of the politician that there are no benefits and only costs.

Phil R
Reply to  Robert Kernodle
January 26, 2017 8:34 pm

Erm…politics does NOT enable science to work, in the real world or anywhere else.

Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 6:50 am

I went on the Yellowstone NP site to find this. I believe all the National Park sites and brochures promote this. The park rangers are trained to put out human caused climate change information as a given:
https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/global-climate-change.htm

Reply to  J. Philip Peterson
January 26, 2017 7:17 am

I believe that this year snowfall in the western National Parks is above average:
http://cams.jacksonholewebcams.com/tetonvillage/tetonvillage.jpg
https://www.nps.gov/features/yell/webcam/oldFaithfulStreaming.html
There are many live webcams of the NPs.

Reply to  J. Philip Peterson
January 26, 2017 7:26 am
Phoenix44
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 8:55 am

But it is the politics that is the problem. Frankly, if climate change was just science, i wouldn’t be very interested – other bits of science i find more interesting than endlessly arguing about models.
But the science is influencing politics, and that is why it is vital to get the science right.

Reasonable Skeptic
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 9:12 am

Hi Danny,
I come from the opposite position. To me, the science is the science and alarmists can trot out study after study after study to win any scientific debate by sheer volume.
I am more interested in the process that creates science. If you can demonstrate that the process that creates science is flawed, you can win the debate and get people to understand that the reality of climate science is far more open for discussion than they were led to believe.
This is an example of advocacy masquerading as a scientifically run agency and is thus important for people to understand. They are exposed to a tiny part of the process that is guiding the understanding of climate science by the voters.
Just my perspective 🙂

Phil R
Reply to  Reasonable Skeptic
January 26, 2017 8:45 pm

Reasonable Skeptic,

I am more interested in the process that creates science. If you can demonstrate that the process that creates science is flawed…

With respect, no “process” creates science.” Science itself is not a “thing” to be created. Science itself IS a process, or a method of study to investigate the natural or physical world.

If you can demonstrate that the process that creates science is flawed…

Then you have demonstrated that science itself is flawed and an never win the debate.

Phil R
Reply to  Reasonable Skeptic
January 26, 2017 8:47 pm

D*mnit. Where’s the edit?
and can never …

Duane Truitt
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 12:24 pm

Exactly, Danny.
I’ve been visiting and reading on this website off and on for several years … I would have stopped long ago if I knew it was going to turn into the Official Donald J. Trump Promotional Website, as it seems to be these days.
And, as far as promoting worthless shit to argue over, as the author of this post is doing, does he really mean to suggest that the best use of government resources is to criminally prosecute private citizens for unauthorized use of an NPS graphic?
Oh, and by the way, posting the very same graphic on your web site here makes both the author and the website owner equally liable for unauthorized use of the NPS logo.
Really???

Phil R
Reply to  Duane Truitt
January 26, 2017 8:48 pm

Stop reading and go somewhere else.

Phil R
Reply to  Duane Truitt
January 26, 2017 8:49 pm

Oh, and no, it doesn’t. Fair use (dumb*ss).

Duane Truitt
Reply to  Duane Truitt
January 27, 2017 7:13 am

Phil R seems to be a typical Trumpian blowhard, who seem intent on suppressing any speech they don’t like revealing them for the authoritarians that they are.
and btw … fair use applies, if it applies .. applies just as much to private citizens exercising their free speech rights as to blowhard anti-warmist rants here … sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander.

Tom O
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 12:35 pm

Interesting. Law is NOT regulation. And whether or not you find this as minutiae or not something to get worked up about, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have significance to others. Your opinion is, your opinion, and unless the blog owner thinks it doesn’t belong here, then it does.

Jan
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 2:50 pm

(It does not look like an atlatl. I’ve used one.)

observa
Reply to  Danny Thomas
January 26, 2017 4:56 pm
gnomish
January 25, 2017 8:34 pm

don’t prosecute. that will simply cost.
fire them.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  gnomish
January 25, 2017 8:55 pm

When ethics rules are violated, the usual ‘out’ is to resign with a deal to avoid prosecution, from what I have saw as an IL state employee.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 9:00 pm

“Have saw”?… kinda’ says it all for a retired state employee, doesn’t it? Remind me next time I poke fun at anybody’s typo…

gnomish
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 9:03 pm

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/641 this one seems a big stretch to apply it.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/701 this one is dead on point.

MarkG
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 9:36 pm

No, don’t be a Cuck. That’s exactly what’s got us into this mess.
The snowflakes need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, pour encouager les autres.

gnomish
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 10:32 pm

stuff your cuck
read the statutes and see that the fine/imprisonment is trivial.
but if you’re into virtue signalling instead of cost effectiveness, so be all you can be.
competing to be a joke will at least get you a participation trophy.

MarkW
Reply to  gnomish
January 26, 2017 6:18 am

Prosecuting the first sends a message to the rest.
Then they self deport.

NW sage
Reply to  gnomish
January 26, 2017 5:28 pm

“However … civil service laws may get in the way.”
Doesn’t the Hatch Act apply here. It prohibits ANY federal employee (there are some specified exceptions) from participating in any political activity on the job or while performing their duties. Since the warmists have succeeded in making the ‘science’ of climate change – or not – a political issue it seems the Hatch Act is fully applicable. The punishments for Hatch act violations are specified in the act.

Deano
January 25, 2017 8:37 pm

I sincerely hope that the new administration takes the opportunity to make an example of these clearly law-breaking individuals using these official symbols of the NPS for their petty political gain… just my take on it..

RD
January 25, 2017 8:40 pm

Well said, Willis. **true environmentalism.** I for one would enjoy reading of your thoughts on this topic if you were inclined.

RD
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 25, 2017 10:23 pm

Thank you, but the link is broken.

RD
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:15 pm

Terrific read and thoughts, thanks.

Jim Watson
January 25, 2017 8:48 pm

The saying used to be “everyone’s a comedian.”
Now it’s “everyone’s an activist.”

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Jim Watson
January 25, 2017 9:20 pm

I’m still trying to achieve comedian status. Guess I’ve some catching up to do.

Reply to  Jim Watson
January 26, 2017 3:36 am

We are all Spartacus !

Phoenix44
Reply to  Jim Watson
January 26, 2017 8:58 am

I think the problem lies more in what Willis alluded to – everybody nowadays thinks their feelings are not just a guide to what is right and virtuous, but to what others must take seriously.
The elevation of feelings over reason and the increasing importance of self in people’s thinking is surely part of the reason we are in such a mess.

markl
January 25, 2017 8:57 pm

Sigh, politics again. The Left/Liberals/Democrats/Progressives have infused their ideology into everything and everybody in government service. We the people don’t count. The day of reckoning is nigh.

Cam_S
January 25, 2017 8:57 pm

If the park rangers are unionized it may be hard to fire / dismiss them. However, they could be reassigned. Like studying polar bear scat in Alaska, or some other chilly, and isolated place.

Leonard Lane
Reply to  Cam_S
January 25, 2017 10:12 pm

Maybe it is time to give federal employees a choice. Civil Service or unions, but not both.

Samuel C Cogar
Reply to  Leonard Lane
January 26, 2017 5:23 am

Civil Service Laws were originally enacted for the sole purpose to protect federal, state or local government employees from politically motivated firings or terminations.
And that is why all government jobs (including public school jobs) have a “tenure policy” of three (3) years. If a newly hired employee is not terminated within 3 years ….. then he/she acquires “tenure” ….. then newly elected “4-year-term” Mayors, Governors or Presidents cannot selective fire or terminate the employees that were hired by the previous “office holding” elected politician.
Thus said, Civil Service Laws protect employees from politically motivated firings or terminations ……. but they do absolutely nothing to prevent the politically motivated hiring or employment of incompetent, unqualified, uneducated and/or “do-nothing” individuals.

markl
Reply to  Samuel C Cogar
January 26, 2017 8:22 am

Civil servants should not have any “political reason” to be fired. Tenure for any job produces mediocrity.

Yirgach
Reply to  Leonard Lane
January 27, 2017 8:18 am

Samuel,
The swollen Greek bureaucracy is a perfect example of Civil Service abuse. Every time the government changes, they refill all the government jobs, but never let go the current place holders. Of course everyone votes for their fav party in the hopes of perpetuating the scam. Sound familiar?

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Cam_S
January 26, 2017 11:11 am

Warm polar bear scat.

Steve Lohr
January 25, 2017 9:03 pm

Once you have signed on to be a latter day Ed Abby, you do stuff.

J Mac
January 25, 2017 9:13 pm

Whooo Boy….
That’s the equivalent of shooting yourself in one foot…..
and then reloading for another try at ‘quick draw’ from the holster on your other hip!

Wayne L
January 25, 2017 9:16 pm

Three quarter of a million followers and only 22 likes?
Heard about the fake twitter accounts

Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 9:18 pm

I don’t think any company, organization, or public entity would take it lightly to have their trademark or logo used by employees to support a personal cause, particularly one which undermines the elected government.

David Chappell
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 4:37 am

Forgive my ignorance of things Twitterish but that screenshot says “Joined: May 2015”. That, to me, implies that this is not a new account.

MarkG
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 25, 2017 9:37 pm

The great thing about Twitter is that you no longer need to go hunting for the Commies in the government, because they post it to their Twitter feed.

KenW
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 26, 2017 12:06 am

Imagine some rogue employees at a company like Apple were to try a stunt like this – using a company Logo to criticize the CEO. They would be found – and Security would be escorting them off the premises within hours. That would just be the start of their legal misery.
——————
Of course, something like this could only happen if the company had enough really dumb employees to form a Critical Mass. Few functioning companies have the necessary concentration. The Stupidity Enrichment Process requires public financing to be viable. Some government departments are weapons grade, therefore prone to meltdown. The social media ban is like the first crude containment structure at Chernobyl. Decontamination will take much longer.

commieBob
Reply to  Pop Piasa
January 26, 2017 12:43 am

… civil service laws may get in the way.

This seems obviously to be a case of trademark infringement. Civil (and criminal) law should help here.

January 25, 2017 9:41 pm

These are the sorts of delta bravos who were coning off turnouts on county roads near Mt Rushmore during the government shutdown to maximize the inconvenience for taxpayers on holiday.
Under Obama they had support and encouragement to play partisan politics. Hopefully Trump will fire them.

Timothy Soren
January 25, 2017 9:44 pm

Prosecute

Geoff Sherrington
January 25, 2017 9:58 pm

So that readers should not conclude that those who visit here have all been through an green stage and/or an epiphany, my own path has led to strong rejection of the need for national parks and world heritage area. They are another method of centralist control of land and its use. In practice, some work out well but others become neglected sources of weeds, fire, pests. The park mechanism globally is used to restrict valid land uses like mining.
Credentials. Representing my then corporate employer, I caused action to delay an imminent inscription of Kakadu Australia onto the world heritage list. Be keen to know if anyone else can claim to have tamed the monster to that extent.
Geoff

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
January 26, 2017 9:31 am

“Valid land uses” also include tourism, camping, and preserving natural wonders for future generations. Perhaps it’s different in Australia, but the US National Park system is one of the few pieces of the government I’m happy to support through my tax dollars.

Geoff Sherrington
January 25, 2017 10:00 pm

Darn … should not conclude …
Geoff

Geoff Sherrington
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 25, 2017 11:30 pm

Ta Willis.

Hocus Locus
January 25, 2017 10:03 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen, someone has been practicing politics in this establishment.
It reeks of sulfur.

peyelut
January 25, 2017 10:06 pm

Tweeted @POTUS with a Heads up, incorporating phrase “Criminal Activity”. The beauty of a Private Sector President is the tendency to hire motivated, energetic staff rather than beaureaucratic ‘ornaments’. Perhaps the information will be followed up on.

January 25, 2017 10:08 pm

It will be interesting with the hiring freeze that has been announced to see how many of these activists keep it up.

Jeef
January 25, 2017 10:09 pm

I’m a socialist. You’d call me a commie in the States because your government choices are either ‘right wing’ or ‘more right wing’. Seeing the bile spewed by the (alt?) right in the climate change debate, just because it suits their agenda, alienates me. Am I a snowflake? No. I just don’t deny anyone their right to an opinion or a voice, however wrong I think it might be. The climate change fight must be won by changing minds, not digging trenches. It’s not a Dem/Rep thing, and I’m saddened that some people think it is.
The science might influence policy, but it doesn’t support either camp, just their ulterior motives. With Obama it was a desire to ‘do something’, leave a legacy, if you will. Make something (unspecified) better. With Trump it’s the stocks and shares he owns or controls, or those of his friends. A naked cash grab.
I’ve followed WUWT since the early days. Back then, opposition to the generally accepted warming meme was fragmented, and this was a welcome addition to science over politics. Looks like it’s going the other way now. When I see how political WUWT has become, especially over this election period, I do wonder why I still follow it. Then I remember it’s because I believe in the huge uncertainties involved in climate science, and my belief in absolute science and facts over conjecture and opinion. I’ll still follow the site, but I’ll fight my corner if it gets too political. This issue, and in particular, this site, should be above that, not be a cheerleading camp for an orange narcissist.
Yours,
A long-term reader and contributor to comments

Jeef
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 25, 2017 11:26 pm

smh I called nobody dumb, I just suggested there’s a surfeit of crowing republicans here recently. The comments back my preposition up, especially those directed at me instantly. Used to be a time people would consider their response over maybe a day or two, but now if you don’t conform to the norm there’s an instant slapdown. I’m old school, yeah, but once upon a time this site was about kindred spirits, and look at what my original post has provoked. Nothing but preconceived opinions based on political factions.
Call me a poser, fine, but my opinion on climate science is based on facts, not opinion, and your (less than) subtle put-down of (your idea of) socialism, your suggestion that the fight has been politicised, not factual, implies a political position over a science one.
Existential angst? I have none, by the way. Therapist, likewise. These comments demean you. You could and should do better to support your position instead of attempting to mock someone else. You invite everyone to quote exactly what they disagree with in your posts, yet you put words in my mouth in your own response. I never called you, or any other WUWT poster, dumb.
Geologist, by the way. I think long term, and that’s why I back the pragmatic view of climate change.
Keep posting, by the way. Most if your stuff is enjoyable and on point.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:27 am

I think Obama was continually labelled as being a Communist by many individuals who on the face of it were reasonably intelligent. Anyone who reads this blog will have seen numerous examples, so it’s a fair comment to say many US citizens on the right of the political spectrum do not really understand the nature of left wing politics. The idea that US politics is shifted to the right in comparison with the rest of the world is accepted as fact by political analysts. Obama in the UK would have been a centrist with some right wing views. Certainly not a Socialist.

Bryan
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:28 am

Willis says
“This is doubly true given that every socialist national economy ever tried has crashed and burned with huge human suffering”
The average standard of living of people in Sweden and Denmark is much higher than that of the USA.
Most American right wing wingnuts would consider these Nordic countries are socialist.
Give over your diatribes against Palestinians.
The Palestinians are the modern equivalents of the Sioux and Cherokee natives.
There is an ongoing colonisation of their lands.
These ventures of yours into general right wing rambles does nothing for the climate skeptic case.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:36 am

Sometimes Willis you write really good stuff, at other times you just completely lose the plot and fire from the hip insulting anyone who has a view which disagrees with your own. Read your responses carefully as written to Jeef. They are packed with inventive and gross insults, yet you draw the flag of victimhood around your self as if you and your Nation are the ones who have been insulted. Come on Willis, you can do better than this, I know you can because I have seen it.
All jeef did was to post his observations and you give him a hard time and try and make him out to be some sort of vindictive idiot.
What was that again about free speech and it’s facilitation?
I know you will will scream blue murder at myself also for writing this, but sometimes free speech has to resist being browbeaten into submission by powerful voices.

Jeef
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:54 am

Willis, you’re incredibly defensive . I had a much longer post that I deleted, to save you wasting your time parsing it to try and justify your pomposity..

Bob Boder
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:42 am

Jeef
The biggest problem with socialists is that they want to make everyone else live as socialists. Our schools are indoctrinating our children into crazed activist for socialism and the CAGW religion. Just try and discuss it with kids these days, they don’t want to hear a different point of view they jump right to you being a racist, sexist Nazi. No one hear is trying to indoctrinate anyone, we are defending our freedoms, I don’t care what you believe, its your choice, but just because you believe it doesn’t make it so. Socialism and CAGW are just another religion.
I don’t care that you are a socialist, not a problem go start a community of like minded people and live in your socialist paradise, nothing is stopping you. Just leave me to live my life the way I want, free to choose my system and live my life not under your rules. That’s the beauty of as society founded on individual freedom, personal liberty and a free market. Inside this system you can live however you want, you want socialism live it. In your system of government control everyone has to live your way. They have a word for this, its called dictatorship and its evil.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:58 am

Bryan
“The average standard of living of people in Sweden and Denmark is much higher than that of the USA.
Most American right wing wingnuts would consider these Nordic countries are socialist.”
Neither of these countries are true socialist (Sweden tried and pulled away when it didn’t work) countries and both of them derive the fast majority of their wealth by selling goods to non-socialist countries.
Can you find an example of one socialist country that ever created any wealth (I mean economic wealth, not individual)? You know the wealth that you need to redistribute to make everyone else happy? They all do the same thing they slowly devolve into a stagnate economy, that makes everyone equal. equally poor, equally oppressed, equally sick, equally brainwashed, oh ya except for the very few people at the top (some are just more equal then others).
North Korea is the perfect example, totally brainwashed and totally poor, maybe even most of them are happy, but they are not free, they can’t do what they want when they want, they can’t think how they want, they can’t live a life that is different then what the state demands and they produce nothing for the world, goods, arts, science anything. they just exist.
Read what I wrote to Jeef, you don’t need to convert me to live a socialist life, just find like minded people and go live it.
My guess is like all the communes created in the 70’s it will fail because it will turn out that only a few dedicated people do all the work for the rest of the people who convince them selves that they do enough. Then they’ll be arguing and fighting and finally no more commune. People need to work for their own lives its what gives meaning to the effort.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:27 am

Let’s see, Obama wanted government to take complete control of the medical industry.
The only reason why ObamaCare didn’t go that route was because the political will was not there yet.
I love it when left wingers declare that they aren’t communists, they just want to impose communist like policies.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:30 am

Bryan, you really shouldn’t embarrass yourself like that.
If the US was a uni-cultural society with vast oil riches, we would have a higher standard of living as well.
Scandanavians in the US have a standard of living as high or higher than Scandanavians living in Europe, so it isn’t socialism that causes their high standard of living, it’s their work ethic. Which I might add, is starting to break down, just as it does everywhere else when socialism is imposed.
As to the Palestinians, their lands aren’t being stolen because those were never their lands in the first place.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:30 am

Jeef, I love it when you left wingers admit defeat, but try to pretend that you have actually won.

MarkW
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:31 am

pretend, not defend, should do a better job of editing on the fly.
[Fixed. -w.]

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 7:59 am

Mr. Eschenbach,
I’m curious, what kind of government do you term the European economies? Particularly Scandinavian?
What about China?

Mark - Helsinki
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 9:27 am

US debt before Obama from all former administrations $9 trillion US debt after socialist Obama, $20 trillion
Socialists and economics go together like fire and ice

JohnKnight
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 11:22 am

Bryan,
“The average standard of living of people in Sweden and Denmark is much higher than that of the USA.
Most American right wing wingnuts would consider these Nordic countries are socialist.”
Rather confusing set of sentences, to my way of thinking . . Do you consider them socialist countries? If not, why are you telling us they (in particular) have a high standard of living? Are you implying that merely having people believe a country is socialist, boosts the standard of living there? . . Or what?

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 11:22 am

Brian and Gareth-
From his actions Obama tried to govern as a totalitarian socialist much like the USSR. He did not negotiate much within his own party and he could not negotiate at all when he did not have the majority in congress. His solution was that he had “my pen and ‘phone” and governed by Presidential executive orders, completely by passing the congress if possible. His goals were socialist- control of the country by government, not by the established democratic process. His political goals were personal- what he wanted to do was the right way to go, regardless of what anyone else thought and he was nearly totally resistant to changing his views. While he didn’t hide what he actually thought he was very judicious in his public comments and the press was extremely hesitant to report candidly, much less highlight his statements.
Brian- Sweden is a constitutional monarchy with a strong parliamentary democracy. The monarch has little actual power. Denmark is a constitutional monarch with a democratic parliament. The Monarch is head of state, but with little explicit power.
Anything socialist about either country is merely the results of parliament. It is not a national policy.
The defintion of socialism is some sort group ownership of the means of production, which can range from small local groups owning a business up to and including ownership of all business by the people in common. Nationalization of ownership is not necessarily included.
In the US socialism has come to mean the government redistributing tax proceeds through various social programs, tax credits, and tax refunds. Depending on how you view it it includes everything from oil depletion allowances to direct payments to individuals for specific reasons.

Reply to  Jeef
January 25, 2017 11:05 pm

Do socialists all resort to name calling, or are you just special?

MarkW
Reply to  Karl Baumgarten
January 26, 2017 6:32 am

It’s not like they have actual data to support their position.

Mark - Helsinki
Reply to  Karl Baumgarten
January 26, 2017 9:28 am

It’s more of a faux moral left stance, they deem themselves ideologically moral so anything that disagrees with them is therefor immoral

Bob Boder
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 4:11 am

Gareth
“I think Obama was continually labelled as being a Communist by many individuals who on the face of it were reasonably intelligent. Anyone who reads this blog will have seen numerous examples, so it’s a fair comment to say many US citizens on the right of the political spectrum do not really understand the nature of left wing politics. The idea that US politics is shifted to the right in comparison with the rest of the world is accepted as fact by political analysts. Obama in the UK would have been a centrist with some right wing views. Certainly not a Socialist.”
That’s what they would have thought in communist Russia too, the fact that the EU has gone totally left in the past 30 years doesn’t mean that left is now center. The US would have been considered totally left in the 1800’s compared to Europeans of the time, yet the US is dramatically left of where it was then. None the this means anything (though what you post rarely does) this country brought the idea of individual liberty to the masses and brought with it wealth and prosperity to them as well, this is not left or right it is something out side the battle for control, its the battle for no control. The European elite have been fight this for ever, first with dictatorships and now with leftist government brainwashing but its the same battle.
Unfortunately for us (meaning free people everywhere) the US is losing this battle.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 4:19 am

JEEF
“The climate change fight must be won by changing minds, not digging trenches. It’s not a Dem/Rep thing, and I’m saddened that some people think it is”
There is no climate fight, because anyone that knows anything about the climate knows that there is no C in AGW. The fight is over liberty and governments attempt to use scare tactics and brainwashing to commit actions (none of which would help the environment even if there was a C in AGW) that take away freedom and invest control and power to the government and more importantly to the elites that control it.

AGW is not Science
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 9:42 am

Couldn’t agree more. Not only isn’t there any CAGW, and for that matter probably any AGW, but merely a little AW of a localized nature due to land use changes, etc., but the supposed “solutions” of the Climate Fascists wouldn’t do a damn thing about the supposed “CAGW” EVEN IF THEY WERE RIGHT about the pseudo climate science. It’s all about CONTROL (of energy use, which by extension allows control of EVERYTHING), and always has been.

Joe Civis
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 12:00 pm

Exactly!!!
Cheers!!
Joe

Darrell Demick
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 12:56 pm

Bob Boder and AGW is Not Science, very well put. My sincerest compliments.
Onward!!!!!!

Samuel C Cogar
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 5:44 am

Jeef – January 25, 2017 at 10:09 pm

It’s not a Dem/Rep thing, and I’m saddened that some people think it is.
The science might influence policy, but it doesn’t support either camp, just their ulterior motives.

Jeef, it appears you quickly forgot what the ell you were complaining about, to wit:
First you claim ….. “It’s not a Dem/Rep thing” …… and then your very next statement you claim ……. “The(ir) science …. supports ….. just their ulterior motives

MarkW
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 6:23 am

I’ve always found it fascinating the way commies define everyone who isn’t a commie as some version of right wing to far right wing.
It all goes back to their delusion that theirs is the only legitimate form of politics and economics.
It’s also one of the reasons why they are so willing to criminalize any dissent to their rule.

Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 12:07 pm

Yep.
Here is my political spectrum. Where do you stand on it?
0——————————————————————————-maximum individual liberty

Leonard Lane
January 25, 2017 10:19 pm

Jeef, you said: “The climate change fight must be won by changing minds, not digging trenches.”
Have you considered that changing minds is a two way street? And can you tell me of any socialist country that hasn’t become a tyranny or that is not well on its way to become one?

Jeef
Reply to  Leonard Lane
January 25, 2017 11:01 pm

Leonard, this is a site that leans toward open community on climate change. That’s what I read it for. I owe you no explanation on geopolitics, which is a different topic altogether.

Felflames
Reply to  Jeef
January 25, 2017 11:45 pm

So the answer is :”No, but I can’t admit that or my worldview collapses?”
Would that be a fair assumption?

Jeef
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 12:03 am

No, my world view is still people-first. That’s socialism, buddy.

markl
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 9:12 am

Which “people first”?

blcjr
Editor
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 2:40 am

“No, my world view is still people-first. That’s socialism, buddy.”
Tell that to the undertrodden of Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, and so on. Every “socialist” country seems to end up with a leadership that enriches itself at the expense of its populace. Of course, that happens in other systems, like ours (in the US, where life-long politicians who have never held a major private sector job still end up millionaires). That just shows that “.gov” — and most organized institutions — are easily co-opted by people who put themselves first, not the people the supposedly serve.
I’m a Christian. As a young man (I’m now in my eighth decade), I was attracted to socialism for what seems to be the same reason you are, that it ostensibly was “people-first.” That was how I understood the gospel of Christ. It is still how I understand the gospel of Christ. But I now understand that no human organization is capable of being truly “people-first.” Putting people first cannot be done by government fiat. It can only be done by individuals, one person at a time. Some types of government allow the freedom for that to happen. The socialism I have seen in my lifetime is not one of them.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 5:36 am

Jeef
January 26, 2017 at 12:03 am
Nope. Socialism means putting the state first and its subject people last.

JonasM
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 6:12 am

“But I now understand that no human organization is capable of being truly “people-first.” Putting people first cannot be done by government fiat. It can only be done by individuals, one person at a time. Some types of government allow the freedom for that to happen. The socialism I have seen in my lifetime is not one of them.”
Truer words have never been spoken.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 6:14 am

The people whom socialists put first are themselves.

MarkW
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 6:35 am

Sorry Jeef, but capitalism is the only economic system that puts people first.
Socialsm puts government and the control of people first.
Under capitalism, the only people who get rich are those who do a good job of making products and services that people want to buy. And the only way to make these products and services is to cooperate with others to create companies.
Under socialism, wealth comes from political power, and the ability to force others to live as you want them to.

Cube
Reply to  Jeef
January 26, 2017 7:50 am

Jeef- You misrepresent. Socialism is not “people first” in any way, shape or form. Socialism is “government first, but con the rubes by telling them we love them.” As far as Sweden being socialist is concerned, Sweden is owned lock, stock, and barrel by a handful of powerful families. They have controlled their homogenous population through the illusion of socialism. This will rapidly unravel as they allow significant immigration from regions which don’t understand the rules.

Catweazle666
Reply to  Jeef
January 27, 2017 2:34 pm

“No, my world view is still people-first. That’s socialism, buddy”
No, that is exactly NOT what Socialism is.
Socialism puts ‘The State’ first, last and middle, and the people are just a disposable commodity that can be sacrificed wholesale on the journey to the Glorious Socialist Workers’ Republic.
How many deaths of your own people were you lot responsible for in the 20th century?
In excess of 200,000,000 wasn’t it, betewn Lenin, Stalion, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and their vile ilk?

Reply to  Leonard Lane
January 26, 2017 1:44 am

Yes, The UK, Sweden, Holland, Germany , France, Norway and many others have Socialist governments or have had them in the past without becoming tyrannies . It’s a very common theme in Western countries outside the US.
I agree that changing minds is a two ways street, thats why when posts are written by people who are not sceptics, they should not be treated as insults and be subject to insults and ad hominem attacks. There are rarely posts by the non-sceptics on this blog which are treated with any respect or consideration by all posters. Even here, on this thread, there are lots of opportunities to note such behaviour. Willis has shown an extreme example, but a review of Griff’s posts will show a rich vein of such behaviours which are all too common.

Ziiex Zeburz
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 3:25 am

Gareth Phillips,
I am not a European, But, have lived ( or Worked ) in all the countries you list above.
European Socialism is 100% them and us, ( us being the political classes ) Latest example ? a contender for President of France, his Wife was employed by him in his office,(hours not important, work load is, his quote) 500,000 euros+ a year ? yep socialism is full of idiots, your chose .

Newminster
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 4:12 am

Gareth, you and Willis are arguing at cross-purposes because you don’t have a common definition of “socialism”.
Willis — the definition you apply (Socialism is where the government owns the farms, the fishing boats, and the factories.) does not truly reflect how the average European thinks of the word. It might perhaps help if we used the phrase “social democracy”. France currently has what it calls a socialist government; Sweden has for most of the last half-century been one of the most “socialistic” countries in Europe. Britain had “socialist” governments in the 40s, 60s, and 70s.
The important thing with all these countries is that, like the US, they have always (at least during the lifetimes of any of us on this site) had multi-party political systems and held regular open and fair general elections. In other words the “socialist” countries of Europe are socialist to the extent that their electorate wishes them to be.
Your view of Socialism is a bit different since you appear to equate it with left-wing dictatorship, a view I wouldn’t disagree with personally but which can be inhibiting when discussing politics with someone from our side of the pond!

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 5:22 am

Governments do own factories in European countries.

MarkW
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 6:37 am

Without being tyrannies? Tell that to the EU and those governments that joined it without giving their citizens a voice in the issue.

MarkW
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 6:39 am

In most European governments, the only difference between the parties is which politicians get to use government to get rich.

January 25, 2017 10:32 pm

I’ll still follow the site, but I’ll fight my corner if it gets too political. This issue, and in particular, this site, should be above that, not be a cheerleading camp for an orange narcissist.

You might start by not using ad hominems, it might even get a dialog going because I agree with SOME of your points. ( I wonder btw what your reaction would be if I said ” a black thin skinned narcissist” FI)

Jeef
Reply to  asybot
January 25, 2017 11:03 pm

I might, but I’ve responded in kind to the comments levelled the other way, right or wrong. Your use of a substitute in your argument is negated by your own comment, sorry.

Ben D
January 25, 2017 10:44 pm

Seems the Rogue NPS has been joined by Rogue NASA and EPS, but I don’t see how they could have gotten so many followers in such a short time? “As of Wednesday evening (Jan. 25), Rogue NASA has 209,000 followers; AltEPA 41,600 and 883,000 at AltUSNatParkService”
“Rogue NASA, EPA, NPS Twitter Accounts Launched to Protest Trump Directives”.
http://www.universetoday.com/133042/rogue-nasa-epa-nps-twitter-accounts-launched-protest-trump-directives/
.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:45 am

It depends on whether you wish to fight for what you believe or go with the flow.

Steve Fraser
Reply to  Ben D
January 25, 2017 11:18 pm

There is a joined date in 2015.

Ben D
Reply to  Steve Fraser
January 25, 2017 11:34 pm

AltNASA, Rogue NASA, and AltEPA all have a January 2017 join date, how the “Unofficial “Resistance” team of U.S. National Park Service”, AltNPS, got to have a join date of May 2015 I do not know?

Mike the Morlock
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 12:04 am

Hi Willis, there may be something more to this. Reading their invitation reminded me of something. Are there not concession contracts with private companies in running the parks? Things like lodging gift shops and “advertising”?
If they are Employees of the park service are they violating contracts by “advertising” on a rogue park service site. Is it also a form of identity theft.
I think if this is illegal they should be tried and convicted and have it on their personal record there after. So anytime they fill out a application they will have to list it.
michael

Samuel C Cogar
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:13 am

@ Mike the Morlock

Are there not concession contracts with private companies in running the parks?

Mike, there sure are,
And iffen those Rogue Nasa, AltEPA, etc., sites are the efforts of contract employees of those private companies ……. me thinks they could be in big trouble. The AG could sue them individually or inclusively along with their employer …….. or the newly appointed Agency heads could cancel said “service contracts” and they would be out of a job.

michael hart
January 25, 2017 11:23 pm

I’m genuinely curious about the thinking behind these actions.
Do they perhaps think they might get away with politically thumbing their noses at the legal authority of the new administration if they do it on-mass in sufficient numbers? Or has perhaps youth combined with the previous admin and the strident anti-Trump MSM led them to actually believe that Trump and Congress doesn’t have any legal authority to lay the smack down, should they wish to do so?

Newminster
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 5:16 am

How about the Left’s overweening sense of entitlement, Willis?
In your country, as in mine, electing a Conservative/Republican government is immediately met with howls of rage and cries of “how could they be so (include expletive of choice here) STUPID?” After the East Berlin rising in 1953, Bertolt Brecht is reported to have proposed that perhaps the Communist regime should consider dismissing the people and appointing a new one!
The main culprits over decades have been the media who have taken it upon themselves to decide what is right and proper thinking and what is not. The argument about BBC bias on these shores (and doubtless similar accusations on your side of the ocean) misses the point. They aren’t biased; it’s just that they determine the limits of neutrality and objectivity and therefore where the “centre ground” is.
The people you are talking about have spent years telling everyone how the world works according to the tenets of the “progressives” which as every “right-thinking” person knows represent reality and suddenly find that the organisation they work for is now obliged to disown reality and start preaching myths and untruths. And it’s too much for them to understand so they find some way of by-passing the new system until normality is restored.
Bravery and “heads above parapets” doesn’t come into it. Think more of WW2 Japanese devotion to the emperor or perhaps Pavlov’s dogs. Or Manson’s cult.

January 25, 2017 11:40 pm

It’s illegal to use any of the official U.S. government seals. Photos, etc., government works are in the public domain (although you will see some on Flickr that claim copyright, if it’s a government work, they cannot have a copyright), but the seals are not – they’re official stamps of the offices they represent; using them implies official stamp of approval.

Ore-gonE Left
January 25, 2017 11:43 pm

Those that think you can remove all politics from science will forever be with Alice in Wonderland. Critical thinking be your guide.
Thanks to you Willis for employing critical thinking. A pleasure to read your posts.

Steve R
January 25, 2017 11:47 pm

No point in prosecution. Just terminate.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve R
January 26, 2017 6:42 am

If they are covered under civil service rules, the only way to terminate is to prosecute.

Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 6:59 am

MarkW is unaware of reality: http://work.chron.com/can-fired-civil-service-jobs-19492.html Please review the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 before making a fool of yourself again.

TA
Reply to  Steve R
January 26, 2017 2:46 pm

I read where two VA employees were fired a couple of days ago.

Ore-gonE Left
January 25, 2017 11:51 pm

Congrats to Anthony!!! I see the site hit 300 million plus views.

RBom
January 26, 2017 12:45 am

Off topic but cannot help to pass along.
The National Southern Wall Corporation (title not settled on yet).
Annual funding: $20 billion (to start).
Startup date: likely FYI 2018. FYI18 will include headquarters, financial, legal, personnel-management and recruitment departments in DC with engineering, research and testing facilities (across US states) in FYI 19. Initial construction to begin in FYI 2020. Completion target FYI 2024.
Folks we (the USA Government) are not returning to the Moon, not going to Mars or the Asteroids.
NASA will be divested of its regulatory authorities and units, to be re-instated and divisions of the Commerce Department, and facilities sold off to the highest bidder or bidders (SpaceX, Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic for instance). Other NASA units will be divested to other Commerce Department divisions or sold to private interests.
If SpaceX, Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic want to go to the Moon, Mars or Asteroids, they as welcome to and on their own dime! God’s speed.

Perry
January 26, 2017 12:45 am

Freedom of speech & freedom of action require courage of the highest order, because they were created with spilled blood & are defended with spilled blood. Socialism decries personal sacrifice, because it seeks to reduce people to the lowest common denominator. There is no freedom without responsibility, the corollary that freedom is the willingness to accept the result of one’s speech or actions & it is not the same as liberty. Socialists are free to try & debase humanity, but they should not come crying when others decide the the basement is not a sensible place to live & deliver socialism a reality kick in the pants. Have more self respect.

Reply to  Perry
January 26, 2017 1:53 am

“Socialism decries personal sacrifice, because it seeks to reduce people to the lowest common denominator.”
Good Lord where on earth did you find that information? Millions of people have died over the years fighting for Socialist principles, rightly or wrongly. From the volunteers in the Spanish civil war to the Cuban revolution. If Socialist governments are really that bad, how is it that they are elected and dismissed on a regular basis in Western countries outside the US? I suspect your posting is an elegant example for Willis of not understanding the difference between Democratic socialism, socialist governments and totalitarian communist regimes.
Remember, the US have lauded Socialist leaders in the past when it has been in it’s own interests.

Perry
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 4:07 am

You are an idiot Gareth. First, you should no call yourself Gareth, but use the unpretentious Gary like the common proletariat that you profess to be & second, do you remember the un-lamented GDR? A voter there had the choice of a number of candidates, but they all had to be card carrying members of the Communist party. Being socialist in the US is enter a social contract in order to suppress the blue collar worker. IMO, you’d vote for any Unitary Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist state that would have you, (but only if you were Gary).
You should also have written: “US politicians have lauded Socialist leaders etc”. President Donald Trump is NOT a politician & he’ll outclass B E B Obama.

Samuel C Cogar
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 6:33 am

So claimith: Gareth Phillips – January 26, 2017 at 1:53 am

Millions of people have died over the years fighting for Socialist principles, rightly or wrongly. From the volunteers in the Spanish civil war to the Cuban revolution.

Good Lord yourself, …… just where or who in hell did you learn that information from?
“DUH”, Castro didn’t launch the Cuban Revolution for the purpose of converting Cuba to a Socialist country. The Cuban Revolution was instigate to depose a Dictatorship ruled by Batista et el.

Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 9:22 am

@ Samuel.
“DUH”, Castro didn’t launch the Cuban Revolution for the purpose of converting Cuba to a Socialist country. The Cuban Revolution was instigate to depose a Dictatorship ruled by Batista et el.
Maybe that is so Samuel. But they fought for the revolution at the Bay of pigs and tried to spread revolution across the world. Do you think the North Vietnamese did not fight for Socialism or Communism? How about Mao’s people? Cambodia? the Red army? Shining Path ? I hope you get the point now that saying no-one has ever fought for socialism is just an ‘ alternate fact’ There is no truth in it.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 10:08 am

Gareth
“Maybe that is so Samuel. But they fought for the revolution at the Bay of pigs and tried to spread revolution across the world. Do you think the North Vietnamese did not fight for Socialism or Communism? How about Mao’s people? Cambodia? the Red army? Shining Path ? I hope you get the point now that saying no-one has ever fought for socialism is just an ‘ alternate fact’ There is no truth in it.”
Fought to impose Socialism. When they had socialism they did not fight for it the killed for it. There is at least 200 million dead people in your indignant little bit of proof here. Way to prove your point.

Reply to  Perry
January 26, 2017 9:17 am

“You are an idiot Gareth. First, you should no call yourself Gareth, but use the unpretentious Gary like the common proletariat that you profess to be”
Perry, you are a sad piece of work. I wonder what people will think of you, someone who has no valid contribution to a debate, but falls back on attacking the ethnicity of a mans name. You are beneath contempt.

JohnKnight
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 1:59 pm

Gareth,
“I wonder what people will think of you, someone who has no valid contribution to a debate, but falls back on attacking the ethnicity of a mans name.”
Well, I’m a people ; ) and I have no idea what “attacking the ethnicity of a man’s name” means . . but I do think you’re full of crap, and are faking any real interest in the site, other than starting trouble . . if that helps ; )

Jbird
January 26, 2017 12:45 am

As a tax paying US citizen I for one do not want to see any unauthorized use of official government emblems regardless of who is doing it – left, right, conservative, progressive, Democrat or Republican. That is why emblems like the US Forest Service are protected to begin with. Although laws were probably broken, just ask for resignations in lieu of prosecution. Don’t waste taxpayer dollars on legal action, but make sure that all of those involved resign.

Danny Thomas
Reply to  Jbird
January 26, 2017 7:29 am

Jbird,
One can purchase a USMC emblem or a National Park Insignia and attach same to a laptop or a Kia.
Seems this is just one to relax and move on.
Regards,

MarkW
Reply to  Jbird
January 26, 2017 11:29 am

Unless you can show that they are paying royalties, then your point is moot.

Rhoda R
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2017 8:39 pm

More to the point, they – as Civil Servants – were deliberately trying to under cut their boss. There is absolutely NOTHING new about an Administration wanting to control what its various components are saying publicly. This is because any communication from a governmental component is assumed to be the official stance of the Administration. These people are in open mutiny and counterfeiting an official site to to it.

Peta from Cumbria, now Newark
January 26, 2017 1:12 am

Maybe worth looking at the BBC page on this..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38745829
To someone ‘speed-reading’ or just quickly scanning the news, it completely gives the impression its from the official Parks Service.
See the word ‘also’ used when the BBC introduce the Alt park service. It was only ‘also’ in that ‘also’ I broke wind while picking my nose this morning. Now why didn’t they mention that?
Weasel words all down the line.
This is exactly the tactics (similar name, stolen graphics etc) that scammers, spammers and phishers use in email to empty folk’s bank accounts – and how much (fake?) uproar would there be then?
As we saw with Obama’s petulant last few weeks, Michelle’s [trimmed] face at Don’s inauguration – the sorest of losers and most childish of behaviour.
And you what I’m gonna say – sugar.
See what sugar does – take at look at the average modern kid kick and scream when it doesn’t get the candy it thinks it wants.

January 26, 2017 1:22 am

Maybe out US friends could confirm if this report is true ?
“Great stuff!! Public outcry in the US has meant that the Department of Agriculture has lifted an order banning scientists & employees of its research arm from publicly releasing their work. See? Fighting back makes a difference. Good work US scientists & environmentalists… and your rogue viral Twitter accounts!”

Bryan
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 1:58 am

Willis
Read the replies to your current post.
Do you think insulting all those who are to the left of you helps climate skepticism.
You are coming across like a right wing Jihadi ,a sort of political Islamic State bigot.

MarkW
Reply to  Bryan
January 26, 2017 6:48 am

Wow, disagree with a leftist and you become a right wing jihadi.
As always, those on the left do not believe that there is any legitimate opposition to themselves. That’s why instead of arguing the facts, they immediately start trying to de-legitimize their opponents.

Pat Frank
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 4:15 pm

In any case, the Sioux stole their lands from the Arikara recently…” good point, Willis, and central to that argument.
Archeology and forensic anthropology has shown that Native American societies were four to ten times more violent than modern US society, and that the pre-Columbian violent death rate was far higher than during the 20th century, even counting American war dead.
That, and the cannibalism that was endemic throughout the American southwest (not just the Aztecs), put paid to any morals argument that singles out Europeans.

January 26, 2017 2:02 am

“Since they are not socialist countries, I’m not sure why you think people would call them socialist. I certainly don’t. A socialist country is where the government owns the farms and fishing boats and factories, the means of production.”
You also appear to be very hazy regarding Western views of Socialism Willis. Let me give you an example. Tony Blair was the leader of a socialist party. The UK’s labour party. They did not even consider collectivisation of farms, shipping and fishing industries. Socialist parties in the past have Nationalised the UK’s coal, rail and steel industries, but this is not collectivisation as practised in Communist countries.
In Europe we are proud of the post war benefits socialism has brought to our communities, we are also happy with the fact that they can be elected and unelected at the whim of the people. Sweden and the UK are classic examples of Western socialism in practise. There are lots of essentially Social Democratic parties in the West Willis, I just suspect that due to the size of the US and limited every day interaction with other countries, most US citizens don’t understand that. They equate Socialism( as you do) with collectivisation, Gulags and Stalinism. probably a belief cultivated in the 50s and 60s by people like McCarthy and subsequent politicians.

MarkW
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 6:52 am

Yes, Europeans do have the option of dismissing a socialist government, unfortunately for them, all the alternative parties are also socialist.

Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 12:00 pm

Gareth, you might read a little more history. According to that wise, unbiased common source, Wikipedia, defines socialism as “common(social) ownership of the means of production.” That includes everything from a local co-op up big employee owned companies. According to footnote (2) “Nationalization in itself has nothing particularly to do with socialism and has existed under non-socialist and anti-socialist regimes. Kautsky in 1891 pointed out that a ‘co-operative commonwealth’ could not be the result of the ‘general nationalization of all industries’ unless there was a change in ‘the character of the state’.”
Many countries of different political persuasions have nationalized various or all industries. Even Pres. Harry Truman tried to nationalize the steel industry in the US. Obama and the Democratic congress were more successful creating a national health care system by doing it legally through a Democrat super-majority congress.

Ziiex Zeburz
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:38 am

Great post Willis,
Unfortunately, God also made idiots. !

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:00 am

“Oh, that’s good. You come in accusing me of being too stupid to know the difference between socialism and communism, accuse me of spouting bile, and now you say I’m defensive?”
Willis, you have already confirmed that you do not understand the difference between Socialist government and Communist ones. That is not due to stupidity, it is due to you living in the US where systems of governments different to your own are a long way off and rarely encountered. In the rest of the world that is not the case, as a result we are much more familiar with changing patterns of politics. In the US you have two main parties, in Europe we have dozens. Lack of experience does not equate to idiocy. Don’t be so self deprecating.

George Tetley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:46 am

Jeef, Holidays are cheap in Venezuela, go to this socialist utopia and report back, ( ops verboten ) maybe Willis is wrong and then we will all join you in luxury at no monetary cost

Michael C. Roberts
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 2:30 pm

A bit of musical interlude, to keep everyone from getting too upset over the controversy of whether socialism/communism has or ever will succeed:
“Heresy” by RUSH

And no, I can’t think of successful communist endeavor…..
Best Regards to all,
MCR

January 26, 2017 2:53 am

Willis, When you are in a hole, stop digging.
Jeef did not insult me or you, in your heart you know that.
“Perhaps you put up with that kind of an attack. I don’t. I punch back. So yes, my responser to Jeef was to slap him across the face as hard as I could.”
The undercurrent of physical violence aimed at anyone who you think may have disagreed or insulted you is truly concerning Willis. If you behave that behind the screen of the blog, I wonder how you behave in real life? Hopefully you don’t carry a semi automatic.
Free speech is something you have flagged up on numerous occasions Willis. We have discussed it at length as you will recall here and on your blog. We discussed the potential limits of free speech and whether free speech carries responsibilities. The first time was a fair few years ago.
So if someone uses their right of free speech, and is then grossly insulted and decides not to involve themselves in further discussion, has the principle of free speech been compromised, or should everyone be like you and react in a verbally violent manner to any issue they disagree with?
“Go ahead, Gareth … show us how you can browbeat me into submission”
Yeah right, ‘Go ahead and make my day” etc. I won’t rise to your intimidating challenges Willis, I’ll dismiss them for what they are, bully boy tactics.
By the way, I’m proud of being called a snowflake. There are many of us, far more than you realise. And together we can form an unstoppable avalanche, we can overwhelm the negative politics seeking to oppress and tear the West apart. You get my drift? Remember, when a government promotes lies instead of truth and seeks to gag free speech, they hate more than anything the individuals who insist on continuing with the truth.

davideisenstadt
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 3:42 am

Gareth…we are still waiting for that unstoppable avalanche from the accumulated snowflakes in Europe… why dont you start in the EU, and clean your own house first? That would be a start.
Your ignorance and condescension are on display for all to see.

George Tetley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 3:50 am

The currant head of the British Labor Party is an ex Communist

MarkW
Reply to  George Tetley
January 26, 2017 6:54 am

As is the current head of Germany.

MarkW
Reply to  George Tetley
January 26, 2017 6:55 am

The “currant head”?
Is he in a jam?

Perry
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 4:15 am

Ex PM B’liar was what we in the UK term a champagne socialist. One day the gods will catch up with him. Preferably with an empty champagne bottle & make of that what you will.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:04 am

Willis, I have just checked with the Oxford English dictionary, which I’m sure you will recognise as being the definitive source of explanations in the English Language.
Socialism
noun. 1[mass noun] A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Now think about that definition. Does it mention Government? Nope. Does it mention collective farms? Nope.
If you regard anything owned by the government as a symbol of Socialism, I imagine you regard NASA as a Socialist enterprise given that it is owned by the US Government. What it does mention is community. That leads us to further discussion on what is a community.
I think the point you miss is that very few countries are completely Socialist, very few are not. It is classic rigid thinking of this sort which tends to get you painted into a corner. Things can tend to one side or the other, but there are very few examples of complete 100% adherence to one belief system, as I have pointed out numerous times in relation to climate change.
At present the US has a hard right government with a highly unpredictable leader who’s understanding of facts are somewhat different to what we have all been used to. Does that make it a Totalitarian regime ?
it patently does not and is unlikely ever to be so due to strong governance systems. Same principle for Socialism in Western Democracies. Black and white thinking is the curse of good discussion.

MarkW
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 6:56 am

Regulation is ownership without having to pay the property taxes.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 1:22 pm

You are apparently not old enough to have experienced the “space race”. NASA did not start as a “means of production”. It was started in order to make sure the US was maintaining a lead in access to space so that we could insure our security. Your position is what we in the US often see in Europeans, that is, you aren’t responsible for your security, the US has been and still is!

January 26, 2017 3:01 am

“Socialism is an economic system where the government owns the means of production, meaning the farms, the fishing boats, and the factories. Despite your claims, I know of no Western country that does that. Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried, with a huge cost in suffering and death”
So I take it that in you view the UK has never had a socialist government?.

mwh
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 6:32 am

In the UK weve had plenty of ‘socialist’ governments, loads of ‘socialist’ politicians, a plethora of socialist programmes (introduced by labour and conservative alike)…….but at the end of the day we have never been a socialist state. Having a socialist government means that their policies will move in that direction. When the Conservative John Major government handed over to the champagne (how apt) socialist Tony Blair, Labour Government we did not automatically become a socialist state – that would take decades to happen or a civil war.
Willis (for fear of being misinterpreted I am ENTIRELY agreeing with you [we have a bit of history!]). I fear for your blood pressure – you should let your peers fight more of your battles for you – I am sure there are many willing lurkers here who would step in and help – myself included.
However my enjoyment of all that you write continues…….from here on in I am an ardent conservamentalist – with that word and your explanation in the link you so accurately define me

Bryan
January 26, 2017 3:10 am

For what is worth the best examples of a successful economy come where publicly owned and private businesses work together.
For example, the Apple iPod, apart from the software and concept it relies on technology developed by state enterprises and defence/semi state contracts
GPS,touch screen,small effective battery,compact hard drive and so on.
On the national park issue, sure some of the employees pushed their luck.
They will I’m sure not be surprised if their actions lead to some form of disciplinary proceedings.
I will have more respect for them if they accept the outcome without claiming victimhood.

January 26, 2017 3:19 am

I think possibly the problem you have encountered Willis is that you see Socialism as a single entity, it is either is a hard socialist system or it is not. Classic black and white thinking. The US as a country runs on a system of Democracy and Capitalism. But the capitalism varies between the hard right Capitalism of Trump, and the softer Capitalism of Obama. The democracy varies, the US is a democracy, but not a perfect one because the value of your vote varies dependent of where you live.
It is the same with Socialism, it come in many forms. We have the Classic Social Democratic parties which are the most common, to harder left wing parties as seen in Italy and Eastern Europe. The UK’s Clement Attlee was an avowed socialist who set in motion many of the things the UK are proud of . Franscois Mitterand was also a confirmed Socialist and proud of it. None of them indulged in collective farming or totalitarian regimes.
Do you see the error you are making? Politics is a much more vibrant issue in Europe with lots of variation. You cannot say a republican party always behaves like Trump and you cannot say socialism is always of the same essence. What you quote sounds like Russian Socialism which they claimed was communism. But is China socialist or Communist? The answer is of course it is neither.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 5:42 am

Gareth
“I think possibly the problem you have encountered Willis is that you see Socialism as a single entity, it is either is a hard socialist system or it is not”
Actually the only problem Willis has is that he is still trying to explain anything to you, it is almost impossible to have a logical argument with someone that has no basic understanding of anything.

Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 9:53 am

Bob, I realise your understanding of political theory is very basic. But here is a little bit of education.
Contrary to what Willis believes, both Republicanism and Socialism are both political systems. There are numerous subdivisions, Thatcherism, Reaganism, Moaism, Stalinism, Blairism etc etc. These are all political systems. However they are mostly variations on broad areas of politics.
For instance, Stalinism. Leninist, Marxist, Moaist are all subdivisions of far left politics. They are different enough to have fought wars over who is right.
Thatcherism, Reaganism, Blairism, Repubilcanism are all sub divisions of Capitalist right wing movements. They have much in common, but are also different enough to have fought wars over.
There is another branch, Fascism which has subdivisions of Nazisim, but hopefully there is not too much of that around.
So when Willis describes Socialism, what is he talking about? It would be the same if I said a country was Capitalist, it’s too broad a brush to give an accurate description. The UK is currently Capitalist, as is Sweden and the US, but they are very different political systems.
I’m aware political theory is not a popular subject in US schools, but I sincerely believe that if the US was not so isolated and understood the wide range of political beliefs across the world, they would not end up with daft ideas such as building a 1000 mile 30 foot tall wall instead of a high speed rail link.
You and Willis may care to read this link on a right wing view of Republicanism
http://www.conservapedia.com/Republicanism
and then contrast and compare with this.
http://home.uchicago.edu/rmyerson/research/chinaforum.pdf
Political theory is a fascinating subject and has been part of my work for quite a few years, I can highly recommend it.

MarkW
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 11:31 am

There’s pure communism, and everything else is a form of capitalism.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Gareth;
“Bob, I realise your understanding of political theory is very basic. But here is a little bit of education.
Contrary to what Willis believes, both Republicanism and Socialism are both political systems. There are numerous subdivisions, Thatcherism, Reaganism, Moaism, Stalinism, Blairism etc etc. These are all political systems. However they are mostly variations on broad areas of politics.
For instance, Stalinism. Leninist, Marxist, Moaist are all subdivisions of far left politics. They are different enough to have fought wars over who is right.
Thatcherism, Reaganism, Blairism, Repubilcanism are all sub divisions of Capitalist right wing movements. They have much in common, but are also different enough to have fought wars over.
There is another branch, Fascism which has subdivisions of Nazisim, but hopefully there is not too much of that around.”
You have zero clue what your are talking about. Socialism is an economic system, Communism is an economic system, Capitalism is an economic system.
The rest of your garbage is just that.
Nazis, Maoist and Stalinist are political ideologies based on state control of the system, i.e. they are political systems based in socialism.
Republicanism is and political system of representative government. Does not have to have a defined economic system
Democracy is a political system of everyone one has a vote.
The US was founded on the principal of individual liberty and freedom of self determination for all and that since government is a coercive force and hence it is evil. However it was recognized that there are some things only a government could do so its a necessary evil. So the choice was made to have as limited a form of government as could be achieved. A representative republic seem like the best choice to allow for liberty and a means to limit the size and power of government. Since individual liberty was the goal it was also understood that only a free market economic system would allow for that any other system requires the government to be the controlling factor.
Every thing you spew is crape all the different ism you throw out there are all degrees of the same thing, the other side of the coin is what the US was founded on the individual over the state.
Gareth you got upset when some one else called you an idiot, I think made its time you look in the mirror and consider the possibility, nothing you says is even coherent, let alone logical or intelligent.

Bryan
January 26, 2017 3:31 am

In the UK there was quite a large state sector that worked well.
Railway,steel works,mines,energy supply and distribution,telephone and communications,the national health service.
The basic infrastructure up till Thatcher was largely provided by state enterprises.
Thatcher may be popular with right wing americans but she is very unpopular here in the UK.
The UK state was able to build several nuclear power stations but now since Thatcher building a new Nuclear power station is apparently beyond our ability.
We have to rely on Chinese and French state owned enterprises for our new power plants.
Several uk contracts in water management, power supply,railway franchises and so on are now in the hands of (ironically) foreign state owned entities.

Perry
Reply to  Bryan
January 26, 2017 4:18 am

Corbyn is unpopular within his own party. Look what another Gareth has to say about him.
https://order-order.com/2017/01/26/labour-stoke-candidate-corbyn-ira-supporting-friend-hamas/

Reply to  Perry
January 26, 2017 6:06 am

Corbyn is a disaster for the British left, and that is the opinion of a dyed in the wool life long lefty.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Bryan
January 26, 2017 5:55 am

Bryan;
if you want to live the socialist life by all means go do it! you don’t have convert anyone to your cause go find like minded people set up a commune and live it. just leave everyone else alone.

MarkW
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 6:57 am

Socialists can’t go off on their own to form their perfect societies.
They need workers so that they can steal what the workers produce.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 7:11 am

MarkW
“Socialists can’t go off on their own to form their perfect societies.
They need workers so that they can steal what the workers produce”
Please be quite, I am hoping they will at least try, I like laughing at people who think they know everything when they totally fail,

MarkW
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 11:32 am

I’ve been told that I’m trite.
This is the first time I’ve been told that I’m quite.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Bob Boder
January 26, 2017 2:08 pm

MarkW
Sorry I suffer from sever dyslexia and my spelling and grammar has and always will be horrible. But shut up and let them be idiots, was what I meant.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  Bryan
January 26, 2017 6:01 am

You are sadly mistaken about Thatcher. You need to widen your circle of acquaintance.
At the time of her death, 50% of Britons rated her “Good” but only 34% “Bad”, and that in a poll by the Loony Leftwing rag Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/09/opinion-sharply-divide-margaret-thatcher

Bryan
Reply to  Gloateus Maximus
January 26, 2017 6:16 am

Gloateus Maximus
Thatcher had to be unceremoniously dumped by the Tory Party when they realised she was so unpopular that they could not win a General Election with her as a leader.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  Gloateus Maximus
January 26, 2017 6:20 am

That is not why she was dumped.
The male grandees in her party got tired of being bossed around by her. They could control little Johnny Major. They were willing to lose the election to be free of her control.

mwh
Reply to  Bryan
January 26, 2017 6:45 am

That is not exactly true is it Bryan, because she is also enormously popular in the UK for what she achieved. Perhaps divisive would be a better word she was certainly that. Trump will probably be the same – but change from elitism and narcissism to pragmatism is what is being voted for in the UK and the US, patronising people by denigrating what they voted for in overwhelming numbers, will only result in their views becoming ever more greatly entrenched.
I have noticed on both sides of the pond that liberals and socialists (in fact just about anybody but particularly our urban elites) only believe in democracy when they are on the winning side. I think its why socialism has a tendancy to fail as it is based on so much hatred of the previous winning side.

Bob boder
Reply to  Bryan
January 27, 2017 2:55 am

Bryan,
Worked really well in Germany in the 30’s too

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 5:40 am

“Gosh, that’s heavy. I mean, that is so profound. So deep. It is almost philosophy. But … which government are you talking about? Which lies are you talking about?”
It can be anybody Willis, right, left anyone you like. In this case it happens to be Trump, but he by no-means unique.
“Finally, do you flatter yourself that you are one of the “individuals who insist on continuing with the truth”? Because if so, there’s bad news … the government doesn’t care about you in the slightest.”
You are correct Willis, I am only one. But like a snowflake, millions of us collectively have a force. We have a voice and when we speak the sound is deafening. How long will Trump be able to hide his tax returns? How long before he admits his wall idea is just daft. The many voices of the blizzard gathering around the world will one day force him to seek shelter. That’s why we have trade unions and political parties . Here is a new word for you. Solidarity.
Remember it when you scoff at single voices.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 26, 2017 6:52 am

Here’s a thought: How about I take the name, “Gareth Phillips”, and create an “Alt Gareth Phillips” to write my future replies here at WUWT. Is everybody okay with that ? Better still, why don’t I find a photo of Gareth Phillips to use as my avatar which has “Alt Gareth Phillips” underneath, separated completely from the photo, of course, which makes it even more okay to use, right ?
What ? Bad idea, you say ? Publicity rights violation ? Whoever heard of such a thing ?!

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
January 26, 2017 1:13 pm

Mr. Philips- The USA is a democratic Republic- democratically elected state governments elect the President, Vice President, and Congress. It was not founded on a particular type of economy- free market, state-controlled, socialism, etc. Reganism is not a political system, neither is “Trumpism” or Rooseveltism. All the US Presidents have operated under the same democratic republic system. Except possibly Barack Obama. He has attempted to subvert the division of powers and move some governmental power to the president that is not constitutional.
Socialism is not a political system, but an economic system with the means of production controlled “socially”. All of the “communist” countries either quickly devolved into totalitarian oligarchies or were so from the start. As such they have no real political system. Most of them have republic, democratic, socialist, peoples, islamist, or similar terms in their names.
Capitalism, is an alternate to socialism(capitalism does not preclude socially organized companies or economies) as pointed out elsewhere can work under any political system if the system allows it. Complete socialism can only work under limited conditions. Many religious order are organized totalitarian socialism. It only works when all the members are completely dedicated to the cause. In countries complete socialism, as in Venezuela,eventually collapses due to corruption, inflation, and lack of money.
Wars between Thatcherism, Reaganism, Blairism, Republicanism? The USA was never at warm with Britain no matter who was in charge. Neither did Thatcher, Blair, or Republic. Your meaning is completely lost on this one.
Nationalization of the means of production, or as Willis say- farms, fishing boat, and factories(and probably the railroads). Just look at the USSR for how effective that was.

January 26, 2017 3:56 am

I see a lot of people here claiming that what the parks services are doing is illegal, newsflash – it’s not.
The agency members are federal employees and therefor have various “whistleblower” protections. What they are doing IS covered by these protections weather the incoming administration likes it or not.
“The OSC note lists some examples of things that are protected: “For example, one prohibited personnel practice explicitly shields employees for blowing the whistle on any effort to ‘distort, misrepresent, suppress’ or otherwise censor any government ‘research, analysis, or technical information’ that the employee reasonably believes could, among other things, pose a substantial and significant threat to public health or safety or constitute a violation of law, rule, or regulation.””.
The attempted gagging by the administration is in fact what is illegal. The law is firmly on the side of the dissenting employees.

MarkW
Reply to  James Firth (@Buggritall)
January 26, 2017 7:01 am

I love it when idiots try to pretend that they know what they are talking about.
1) One of the requirements of the whistle blower statutes is that you have to report your concerns to the proper authorities.
2) You can’t pretend to be speaking for your boss when “whistleblowing”.
3) Mis-appropriation of official government symbols is a crime.
4) There is nothing illegal about your boss telling you to stop pretending to speak for the company when you have no authority to do so.

Reply to  James Firth (@Buggritall)
January 26, 2017 7:17 am

The “that the employee reasonably believes could” will be tested in court.
If someone spouts verifiable rubbish, ie can not back it up, then they will get their just desert.

Reply to  James Firth (@Buggritall)
January 26, 2017 7:24 am

You are just wrong on all counts. There are long standing SOPs for interacting with media as a federal employee in quasi offical ways. You confuse that with private citizen free speech ‘unaffiliated’ with fed gov job. Here there is deliberate affiliation, and it is and never was allowed. Using EPA/NASA/ NPS official logos is a statutory crime, or didn’t you read the main body of the post? New sherrif in town. Get used to it.

Rhoda R
Reply to  ristvan
January 26, 2017 9:03 pm

Thank you ristvan. I worked thirty years for DOD and we were required to interact with the media, etc. using specific protocols. Government employees do not have 1st A rights while on duty and they are precluded from making political statements while identified with their organization in any way. There is nothing new in that. What is new is that this Administration felt that it had to issue the ban because the various components have gone rogue.

JMA
January 26, 2017 4:00 am

The Alt site is OK by me. Free discussion is what we all should be aiming for, using data and logic, not petty regulations.

Reply to  JMA
January 26, 2017 6:56 am

But it’s blatant trademark infringement !

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
January 26, 2017 6:57 am

Oh, I forgot to sign it — Alt JMA

Reply to  Robert Kernodle
January 26, 2017 12:18 pm

8 U.S. Code § 701 – Official badges, identification cards, other insignia
Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 731; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(E), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2146.)

Rhoda R
Reply to  JMA
January 26, 2017 9:05 pm

Nothing petty about that particular regulation. Believe it or not, these Civil Servants DO NOT speak for the Administration, which is what they are implying with their ‘alt’ site.

jpatrick
January 26, 2017 4:13 am

Anthropologists don’t really use the term “arrowhead” anymore, if they ever did. The proper term is Projectile Point.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  jpatrick
January 26, 2017 5:15 am

The Interior Dept. officially calls its symbol an Arrowhead.

MarkW
Reply to  jpatrick
January 26, 2017 7:02 am

I have friends who live near Lake Projectile Point is southern CA.

Perry
January 26, 2017 4:25 am

Sharp stick, flint tip, bodkin point. They’ll all shaft you.

Gerry
January 26, 2017 4:27 am

My understanding of the Trump directive (via Sean Spicer) is that the Agencies are directed to respond to their staffs twitter outpourings in line with the agency guidelines, rather than turn a blind eye …….btw…..Looks like the CO2 haters have been directed to attack this site …….jeez jeef what does it feel like to be a puppet ?

R.S. Brown
January 26, 2017 4:39 am

Willis,
I urge you and the good folks responding to READ the current (as of 1/27/17)
U.S. Department of Interior’s official web page on :”climate change”.
https://www.doi.gov/climate
You’ll understand why some National Park Service employees, as the foot
soldiers for Interior, feel abandoned and betrayed.
The page reads like an executive summary of a warmist’s manifesto and
action plan. All the rhetoric fits under the Department’s official logocomment image?itok=iMN4I9ez

Griff
Reply to  R.S. Brown
January 26, 2017 5:04 am

Or an accurate summary of actual scientific fact and findings…
shutting down comment from govt employees/scientists because it contradicts a political position is shameful.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 5:13 am

It’s a pack of lies.
The Obama regime silenced the real scientists who have so easily shown CACA to be a fr@ud.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 5:45 am

Griff
go find your polar bear

urederra
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 6:59 am

They can express their personal opinions as long as they do it at their homes with their own money and in their spare time. What they cannot do is to use the name of public institutions, public logos and public resources to disseminate political propaganda while they are on duty.

MarkW
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 7:04 am

This from the guy who approves of having skeptics shut down.

Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 7:04 am

shutting down comment from govt employees/scientists because it contradicts a political position is shameful.

Shutting out research findings that contradict the authoritative commentary of govt employees/scientists is more shameful. Now it’s their turn.

mairon62
January 26, 2017 4:47 am

The National Park Service is long overdue for a huge management overhaul. Over half of the park employees are ideologically on the same page as the uni-bomber. I was talking to a Park Ranger at Mt. Rainier in Washington State and his position was that the park should be closed to humans to preserve it as a pristine ecology. Meanwhile the gift shop has sourced most of the trinkets from China because the made in usa trinkets only yielded a 500% mark up and now they’re getting 1000%. Same with the food service contracts from ARA with that nasty, overpriced $5 hotdog yielding less than $1 going to the vendor and $4 of pure profit going to the Park Service; yum. Oh, and the park signage? That has to be a special White Pine that only grows in Virginia, so overpaid Federal Employees, by law, must ship signs, White Pine only, to parks 5,000 miles away in Alaska; what ever happened to “not bringing wood into the forest”? No resource is so scarce that it can’t be wasted by a central bureaucracy. Love the nature, but the greedy fools that mismanagement it? Not so much.

Gloateus Maximus
Reply to  mairon62
January 26, 2017 5:18 am

The USFS (Ag) and BLM (Int) are just as bad.
Or worse, in the case of the BLM.

Griff
January 26, 2017 5:02 am

“This site has never been just about the science part of climate science. It is also about the political aspects of climate science”
Seems to me its more than a bit tilted towards a political view of climate and ignoring the science lately?

Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 5:43 am

It’s been heading that way for some time Griff. It is to a large extent a cheer leader for right wing politics. There are occasional voices who buck the trend, but they are usually shouted down by the good ‘ole boys.

MarkW
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 7:07 am

Translation: Like a good socialist, I cannot believe that these right wingers are still allowed to voice their opinions.

Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 9:31 am

MarkW, it’s not giving their opinions which is an issue, it’s the way it is done with threats and insults. That is never a good basis for informed debate.

MarkW
Reply to  Gareth Phillips
January 26, 2017 11:34 am

Since they are breaking the law, what’s wrong with pointing out the consequences of that?

ECB
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 5:47 am

Climate science was politicized 30 years ago. There is definitely jubilation in the air at the prospect of the politics being kicked out the door by new science advisor, hopefully Dr. W. Happer.

Bob Boder
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 5:50 am

Griff
“Seems to me its more than a bit tilted towards a political view of climate and ignoring the science lately?”
But it still allows people like you, who knowingly slanders and lies about scientist who have the nerve to do research that doesn’t fit the CAGW mantra, to spew your garbage.
Go meet your polar bear, you creep.

MarkW
Reply to  Griff
January 26, 2017 7:06 am

There’s a lot of political activity at present.
So there is a lot to comment on.
I love it when you whine about what others are talking about. You might as well just admit defeat. It would be more dignified.

Gloateus Maximus
January 26, 2017 5:11 am

This would be a good time for Trump to say, “You’re fired!”

January 26, 2017 5:14 am

thanks Willis, your replies are as good as your article.
cheers

Jbird
January 26, 2017 5:45 am

I have a senior pass to the national parks, and although I haven’t visited a park in a few years, it used to be that you couldn’t go on a walking tour with a ranger or some other guide without getting a lecture about how global warming was destroying the park. Similarly, it seemed that all of the displays in the visitor centers were devoted in whole or in part to “educating” the public as to how they were destroying the environment and the park with human carbon emissions. It became tedious and I quit visiting.

J.H.
January 26, 2017 6:27 am

In the tradition of that arcade game Mortal Kombat….. FINISH THEM.
They abused their power and positions, they pursued activism above that of facts and truth, they have brought conservation and science into disrepute….. Yes. Finish them.

Owen in GA
January 26, 2017 6:27 am

Actually, if they use national park service symbology and web contacts on their page and then take a political opinion for or against any issue that is contradictory with the political leadership’s positions, they are in a position to be immediately terminated. If they post on their personal twitter accounts and their profile says they work for NPS that is perfectly fine. They just can’t cause ANY misrepresentation of for whom they are speaking. That is a clear termination offense even in our messed up Civil Service System.

Jerry Henson
January 26, 2017 6:41 am

First of all, Garth, the US is not a Democracy. Democracy is mob rule.
This is the reason for the electoral college system.
As far as the US taking land from the occupying people, I suppose that
we should not have given the lands which we stole from the Third Rich
to countries which are known, again, as France, Belgium, etc.
The socialist tendencies which the US exhibited with President Truman’s were
Marshall plan were decried by many, but allowed western Europe back in
the game, economically speaking.
The standard of living in the US is somewhat lower than it could because of
the enormous burden of the defense which most of the “free” world shares
only lightly.
I am a capitalist, but do not believe in unbridled capitalism. I want a
somewhat level playing field as the Clayton, Sherman, Robinson-Patman acts,
etc. attempt to limit monopolies and cartels.
Thinking that AGW is is actually a science question is a mark of the success
of Maurice Strong’s ilk and his tools to establish global domination through
the UN.
I would be very happy if the question were only scientific, but it is not. When I
started reading about climate, it was because my daughter was coming home
from school, saying that we must stop using hydrocarbons because the CO2
was going to cool the atmosphere, and start the next Ice Age.
When that didn’t work out for the anti-capitalists, the same people did a
180 and we have AGW. Both were an attempt to stop the US version of the most
successful and productive economic system the world has ever seen.
In my opinion, the people who oppose capitalism fall into two main but very
different categories, those who are afraid of competition, or those who seek
power.
Trump is a capitalist. Reagan was a capitalist. My hope is that Trump will
attempt to better Reagan. His history leads me to believe that he will.
The world will be better off if he does.

Bob boder
Reply to  Jerry Henson
January 26, 2017 9:06 am

Jerry
You left out those who like to have other people wipe their backsides.

Resourceguy
January 26, 2017 6:49 am

How about an AltAlt National Park system that addresses user and citizen complaints about the parks like limited accommodations and camp sites, excuses for grizzly bear attacks on hikers at Glacier, and forest non-management.

Arbeegee
January 26, 2017 6:51 am

Last Summer I was dismayed by an all-out political lecture from the National Park Service when visiting Alcatraz and finding myself and the rest of my tourist group under fire in the name of prison reform billed as an Alcatraz history lesson. I was a Canadian tourist for petesake.