Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I see that Andrew Revkin continues to try to keep the climate pot bubbling. In this case, he’s issued dire warnings about reducing the so-called “Social Cost of Carbon” (SCC). He starts by defining the SCC
This value is the government’s best estimate of how much society gains over the long haul by cutting each ton of the heat-trapping carbon-dioxide emissions scientists have linked to global warming.
Currently set at $36 per ton of carbon dioxide, the metric is produced using a complex, and contentious, set of models estimating a host of future costs to society related to rising temperatures and seas, then using a longstanding economic tool, a discount rate, to gauge how much it is worth today to limit those harms generations hence. (For context, the United States emitted about 5.1 billion tons of CO2 in 2015, out of a global total of 36 billion.)
Now that makes it all sound very scientific, but let’s be clear about these claimed “harms generations hence”.
The Social Cost of Carbon (SCC) is a GUESS about the unknown future economic effects that might or might not result from unknown future temperature changes that might or might not result from unknown future CO2 emissions changes that might or might not happen over the next century.
Now, why is this important? Again, Revkin discusses that:
The contention arises because the social cost of carbon underpins justifications for policies dealing with everything from power plants to car mileage to refrigerator efficiency. The carbon valuation has already helped shape 79 regulations.
The strongest sign of a coming challenge to the social cost calculation came in a post-election memorandum from Thomas Pyle, who was then president of the industry-funded American Energy Alliance and Institute for Energy Research and who now leads the Trump transition team for the Department of Energy. In the memo, he predicted policies resulting in “ending the use of the social cost of carbon in federal rule makings.”
I completely agree with Thomas Pyle. The SCC is a fatally flawed measure which has little resemblance to a traditional cost/benefit analysis. I certainly hope its use is ended completely. It is a chimera, a scientific mirage.
Now, as Revkin points out:
Outright elimination of such a calculation is highly unlikely, according to interviews with a range of experts. The practice of estimating the economic costs and benefits of most government regulations began under an executive order of President Ronald Reagan in 1981. It has continued ever since. Climate-related regulations are no different. Several court rulings have affirmed the process.
However, I think that makes it easier to get rid of. The fix seems easy, and fortunately, Revkin has revealed the way it can be done. Live by the pen and phone, die by the pen and phone … it was created by an Executive Order, and could disappear the same way.
Revkin continues:
But the Trump administration’s aim of lowering the operative “number,” possibly by a lot, is almost assured. In 2013, an economist from Pyle’s energy institute testified in a Senate hearing that under a proper calculation, the social cost of carbon “would probably be close to zero, or possibly even negative.”
In fact, for reasons I discuss below, almost any number could be justified as being the “true” SCC, because the uncertainties are enormous. Revkin goes on:
A deep cut would be both dangerous and unjustified, given the basics of both climate science and economics, said Gernot Wagner, a Harvard economist focused on climate risk and policy. In a phone interview on Tuesday, he said the interagency working group assembled by the White House in 2009 to create the social cost measurement was “a damn impressive exercise at assembling a lot of firepower and done in a way that was about as apolitical as things can go in Washington.”
I love this quote. A person who thinks the SCC is needed and who (coincidentally I’m sure) makes his living studying the SCC says yep, we sure need the SCC, it’s damn impressive …
It brings to mind another of my rules of thumb, which states:
Never ask your barber if you need a haircut.
Revkin goes on to favorably discuss a new paper from the National Academies of Sciences entitled Valuing Climate Changes: Updating Estimation of the Social Cost of Carbon Dioxide (2017) As you might imagine, it’s a plea to keep the imaginary cost of carbon as high as possible.
So … just what is wrong with the “Social Cost of Carbon” (SCC)? Let me renew my long-standing objections to this unscientific construct. Here are my reasons:
• As the title “Social Cost of Carbon” implies, it is assumed from the onset that the costs exceed the benefits. I have seen no evidence that this is known or even knowable. As an example of this bias, the term “cost” appears about seventy times in the document … the term “benefit” only seven times. Thumb on the scales much?
• Once you start “monetizing” non-monetary costs and benefits there is no firm scientific guidance as to what you include, how you value it, who is considered as a stakeholder, whether various stakeholders receive preference, and a host of other choices. This means any result you might come up with will have very large uncertainties.
• It is even worse when, as in this instance, we are doing a cost-benefit analysis that compares both present and future costs and benefits. This introduces a whole new host of uncertainties—how and when and even whether things will change on the input side (emissions), how and when and even whether things will change on the output side (temperatures), what discount rate we will use, whether that discount rate varies over time, and how these possible imagined future physical changes will affect both the real and the monetized future costs and benefits. At this point our uncertainties are what Steve McIntyre used to call “floor to ceiling”. The uncertainties swamp the data.
• It is much, much worse when, as in this case, the imaginary future changes are based on an unproven scientific theorem which to date has produced nothing but an unending string of failed forecasts. Where are the coral atolls supposedly sunk in defiance of Charles Darwin? Where are the 50 million climate refugees we were supposed to have by 2010? Where is the massive threatening acceleration in sea level rise we’ve been promised for thirty years now? Given how wrong the climate models are to date, by the year 2050 they will be off the charts. This pushes the previous “floor-to-ceiling” SCC uncertainties to the level of “surface to tropopause” uncertainties. The signal to noise ratio is ludicrous. Richard Tol surveyed the field and found values from negative (net benefit) through zero to $1500/ per tonne of carbon … on my planet that is not science, that’s throwing darts.
• To date we can show real, observable, measurable BENEFITS of increasing CO2. For example, we can see and measure clear benefits of CO2 through satellite-measured “greening” of the planet. In addition we can show that this has reduced atmospheric transpiration of water by plants, extending the yield of irrigation water. (And as an aside … how much is that worth? You see the problem with “monetizing”?).
But on the other side of the ledger, we have no real, observable, measurable COSTS of increasing CO2 even if we make the unlikely assumption that CO2 roolz temperature.
Where, for example, are the demonstrated climate costs of the ~ 2°C rise in land temperatures (Berkeley Earth data) over the last 200 years? Where are the climate tragedies? Where is the crop loss from that warming? Where are the deaths and the climate catastrophes? Heck, even Richard Tol puts that past temperature rise in the net benefit column. As a result, we are comparing real, known, measured present benefits to imaginary, calculated, unknown future costs based on an unproven theory.
• Nowhere in any of this accounting do I find one of the largest and most important costs. This is how much it has cost us to date to fight CO2. There have been untold billions and billions of dollars wasted on Solyndras and useless studies and “Social Cost of Carbon” government boondoggles and all the rest of the money and human resources wasted. I say wasted because to date I don’t see any benefits from any of this. Green energy has not taken off, it has been a constant money drain. None of the expensive climate models have been able to do better than Phil the Groundhog at predicting the future evolution of the climate. Where are the costs of the endless IPCC quackathons? Where do those billions and billions and billions of wasted dollars go in this cockamamie “Social Cost of Carbon”? To date, fighting the fantasized evils of carbon has been all costs and no measurable benefits … can we get an accounting of that?
For all of these reasons and more, I find this entire “Social Cost of Carbon” enterprise to be a wholly unscientific effort to pretend that we can accurately monetize unknown results of an unknown misty future.
I implore Andrew Revkin and everyone involved in this scientific monstrosity to stop and consider what you are doing. The uncertainties are immense, as mentioned they go from surface to tropopause. The SCC is a transparent effort to justify throwing more taxpayer money down a rathole. And regardless of what value you think the SCC has or should have, you are adding the prestige of your name and reputation to a pseudo-scientific attempt to support and justify the imposition of new laws, restrictions, subsidies, cap-and-trade, carbon taxes, renewable mandates, and other ways to increase the cost of energy.
And increasing the cost of energy, no matter how it is done, shafts the poor more than anyone. Increasing the cost of energy is one of the most regressive taxes imaginable, and there is no opt-out at the bottom of the economic ladder. Rising energy prices hit the poorest of the poor harder than anyone.
Perhaps some folks are willing to support that “Social Cost of Carbon” BS as part of the ongoing effort to screw poor people in the name of a possible distant imaginary idyllic green future in fifty years or so.
Me … not so much …
I invite you to read my previous posts on this subject. The first is from three years ago
Monetizing the Effects of Carbon 2013-01-11
A few months ago [2012] in the New York Times Green Blog they talked about “monetizing” the “social cost” of carbon. The article said:…
The other two are more recent:
The Bogus Cost Of Carbon 2016-12-15
[See update at the end] From the New York Times a while back: In 2010, 12 government agencies working in conjunction with economists, lawyers and scientists, agreed to work out what they considered a coherent standard for establishing the social cost of carbon. The idea was that, in calculating the costs and benefits of pending…
and
Monetizing Apples And Oranges 2016-12-25
Let me start by thanking Richard Tol, Marcel Crok, and everyone involved in the ongoing discussion at the post called “The Bogus Cost of Carbon”. In particular, Richard Tol has explained and defended his point of view, giving us an excellent example of science at work. In that post I discussed the “SCC”, the so-called “Social Cost of Carbon”. There…
In short, the SCC is not science. It compares imaginary future values up to a century out based on an unvalidated theory on the one hand, with measured observed actual present benefits on the other hand. This is scientific and accounting nonsense.
I say get rid of it. Nobody has ever shown one dollar’s worth of actual measurable damage from increases in atmospheric CO2. Given that we cannot point to current damages, we are lightyears away from being able to put any realistic number on the possible future damage from this unproven theory. That’s a sick joke.
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Meanwhile, here on the northern California coast, we sit underneath the “Pineapple Express”, over ten inches (250 mm) in the last three days. This is the rain we were supposed to never see again, because “climate change”.
There’s a big tree down on the road I live on, and it brought down the power pole, so we’re running on the RV generator plus a bunch of extension cables. Hey, life is good … we’re not sitting in the dark, and although the gorgeous ex-fiancee had to walk a quarter mile (half a km) home after work today in the rain because the tree is still blocking the road, she’s here and we’re happy.
Best to all,
w.
PLEASE, if you disagree with someone QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH, so we can all understand your subject.

I’ve long defended Andy Revkin’s curiosity and intellectual integrity, ever since he gave me a forum @ur momisugly DotEarth in 2008, such that the bitter ones called it DotKim, but he’s not without bad error and this is one, not that I didn’t warn him.
The social cost of carbon is negative. AnthroCO2 is a boon, providing mild warming of net benefit, and near miraculous greening of tremendous universal benefit.
And it’s a side effect of the truly miraculous transformation that cheap energy has made upon society, and will continue to provide, provided we have the sense to use it wisely.
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Heh, The Human Cornucopia.
H/t to RG for his ‘Human Volcano’.
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Well, we’re this far into the comment thread and no one’s mention the desperately corrupt and corrupting Lord Stern? Even Pekka, bless his ever lovin’ frightened heart and incandescent mind, balked @ur momisugly Stern.
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More heh, I remember telling Richard T. over at Tom F’s early place, that the science wasn’t settled. I’ve even told him that the economics isn’t settled, and particularly so not @ur momisugly 2 degrees C.
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I don’t believe it is possible with AnthroCO2 to provide so much warming as to become net detrimental. We also can’t exceed greenhouse proven maximal CO2 content for the biome. We simply haven’t enough fossil fuels to do so, vast and growing as the reserves are.
I’ve got to Hat/tip Max Anacker for the numbers about this, though I suspected it long before he provided them.
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Revkin is two-faced. Like “Chuckie” Schumer, Revkin has the principles and ethical backbone of an amoeba.
Given a choice of the two, I’d rather have tea with Andee.
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I’m not sure what your problem with Andy Revkin is. Andy’s a lukewarmer, but thinks CO2 is a serious (though poorly defined) long term problem. People here disagree and I do too, basically, though this will be decided long after we here are all gone. I admit I could be wrong.
I learned a lot by following Dot Earth, and I’m sorry that it’s gone. Andy is an honest broker of information, and has always presented both sides.
The social cost of carbon…… is not the same as a cost benefit analysis rather it is only a cost analysis.
“The practice of estimating the economic costs and benefits of most government regulations began under an executive order of President Ronald Reagan in 1981. It has continued ever since. ”
All they need to do is determine the benefit of carbon and we are good to go. I wonder why this has never been tried?
Here is a hint. Compare New York City to rural Afghanistan .
Reagan was right.
The cost/benefit should be assessed for the consequences (regulations), not the cause (alarmism).
Then the cause can be addressed separately in all peace and quiet:
Alarmists have already accepted Lew flexing his professional ethics to collective diagnosis. They should have nothing against the method being used to analyse alarmism the same way. Then the help can be delivered locally.
While only typing the idea makes my fingers feel filthy, it must be recognised no amount of taxpayers money will be enough to cure the cause, hence remains ineffective.
Given that atmospheric carbon dioxide is demonstrably causing the planet to become “greener”, and given that Greenpeace wants to reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide, should they not be renamed Brownpiece?
This is a measure of the grand delusion of alarmism. Granted the warming and greening are serendipitous, but the human race deserves praise and thanks for the production of AnthroCO2, not fear, blame and guilt.
The spell is only broken one by one, but one by ones seem to wander by one by one’er more, lately.
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First of all let me say I agree with you. These SCC folks seem to have not the slightest idea what they are talking about, It seems ill-advised to do policy planning based on a number that could be anywhere in a range of orders of magnitude..
Example: Canada is a very large country — for practical purposes, it’s the same size as the US and China. But it has one tenth the population of the US, one fortieth the population of China. Why? Because it’ COLD up there. Too cold to grow crops mostly. I’ve done some random checking and I’ve yet to find an analysis of warming that includes doubling or quadrupling of Canada (or Russian) GDP.
Quibble:
I think that’s because “they” chose to define the effect of atmospheric carbon as a cost. Had they instead chosen to define it as a benefit, they would (if they knew what they were doing — which they don’t seem to) arrive at the same number with the opposite sign. And you’d probably see ‘benefit’ a lot more often and ‘cost’ less often. Not a thumb on the scales so much as an arbitrary choice between two somewhat unsatisfactory terminologies.
To all, excellent responses, my compliments!
Don K, I could not agree more with your comment – Canada IS a COLD country. I remember seeing on the Friends of Science web site a link containing a map of western Canada, and how the areal extent of land available for crops would be reduced by a 1 C drop in average temperature. it was truly scary.
And yet we have this wonderful socialist ruling party in the Province of Alberta, Canada, who have implemented a “Carbon Tax” effective January 1, 2017. Funny story, my very wonderful girlfriend’s mother received a check in the mail a day ago for C$100 (US$76.40 at current exchange rates) – this is her “Carbon Tax Subsidy”. I don’t want to know what the cost is of administering this process.
Social Cost of Carbon is quite simply just another form of transfer of wealth, and all governing bodies LOVE to have more tax money coming in. How they spend it is another issue entirely. And yes, even though the wonderful socialist party in Alberta are trying to do their best impression of Robin Hood, the poor will suffer more than the not-so-poor. Great Britain is a prime example of how people have perished due to not having sufficient funds to heat their homes – I believe the estimate for the winter of 2011-2012 was 30,000 deaths. And another 15,000 in the winter of 2015-2016.
Darrell. A Carbon Tax makes more sense for a country like the US which is an energy importer than Canada which isn’t. Renewables have lots of problems, but in most cases they are domestic, not foreign, and that is in the very long run is positive. One effect of a carbon tax is somewhat like a tariff on foreign oil. Also, paying out the carbon tax money as a subsidy to the residents is probably a pretty good idea if one has to have a carbon tax. Otherwise, the money will likely be dinked away on a zillion mostly ill-conceived projects.
DonK, if you make a countries energy more expensive, then it’s exports get more expensive as well.
Also all imports become more competitive as you increase the cost of things made here vs things made elsewhere.
Imports go up, exports go down.
Good way to ruin an economy.
PS: Taxing imports has the same effect, no matter which import you are referring to.
Revkin’s bad faith and cynicism is on full display.
To not have a rational cost/benefit analysis on environmental policies means that the policies are irrational. yet he still supports the status quo.
For Revkin to write his article in such a way as to ignore what the purpose of cost/benefit is supposed to be, and to simply treat reforming the analysis to a rational basis is simply a wraskly Republican evil trick is to deliberately confuse the issue. It is as if he prefers the non-rational non-functioning, ineffective polices which the climate extremists have imposed on us.
SCC is about ground work to allow the real money to get richer and get even more power.
When you control CO2, you control life itself.
This about sums up the whole CAGW farce:
Uncertainty
Uncertainty
Uncertainty
Uncertainty
[…]
(Translation: uncertainty on top of uncertainty on top of uncertainty on top of uncertainty on top of…)
Maybe there’s a turtle down there somewhere, too.
Piper Paul
You say that there is huge uncertainty about CAGW and its purported causes and impacts.
I am not so sure about that.
🙂
Given the recent flooding in northern California, perhaps it is high time we considered the social costs of “hydrogen”.
You miss the point.
SCC was never about carbon. It was about the gap between uncompetitive “renewable” Versus carbon-emitting industries, and finding a way to fill that gap by putting a tax-burden on the latter to subsidize the former. How much was needed ? Answer : 30-50 $ are enough, to begin with (to be risen later, as need be).
So let SCC be 36$. Plus, 36 is a good number. 1 digit is not enough, 3 or more digit are too much. number beginning with “3” look good. odd number make feel odd, and -0 doesn’t look like a normal result of a calculus but something preconceived (which it is, indeed, but don’t want to show), that leave us 32, 34, 36 and 38. 38 (=2*19) or 34 (=2*17) are weird. 32 would have been fine, too.
“Social Cost of Carbon” (SCC) aka : “the tax on carbon-emitting industries to be turned into subsidizes for our otherwise uncompetitive crony-capitalism industries of renewable fun toys. “
Here’s some of the “social” cost of having 6 percent of our electricity in Shiny New Green Ontario generated by wind/solar/biomass. At our house in southern Ontario, we now pay, on average, about 19¢/KWh (about 14.5¢ in US$), up about 85% in the last 10 years, solely due to closing coal-burning plants, building gas plants, cancelling gas plants, building more gas plants, paying the gas burners to stay idle two-thirds of the time in case the wind stops blowing, and subsidizing wind and solar producers by guaranteeing to buy all their output at 18¢/KWh (that is before the cost of distribution).
And on top of all that, because the rising cost of what we still refer to as “hydro” has reduced consumption quite dramatically, dumping the unwanted green power on poor New York at 3¢/KWh. At our property in northern Ontario, which is just down the road from a hydro plant (distribution cost = ± zero), we are paying on average 23¢/KWh.
Mother Wynne envisages a greener future where we will all heat our homes with electricity produced from the wind/solar/biomass when they have ramped up to the point where they can close the nukes that supply 60% of our electric power. No, we will stick with gas, thanks very much for the kind offer. Gas is why the price of electricity isn’t really hurting us that much.
Using green accounting, Ontario electricity is 13 percent renewable, but that’s installed capacity. Actual production in 2014 (the last year we have complete numbers for) was 6 percent. Capacity factor of 6÷13 = 46% which is actually good for renewables. Green accounting, of course, does not include the capacity factor of 35% for the backup gas plants.
Don’t even mention the carbon tax we’re all paying since January 1st this year.
“Social” cost? We’re already paying the cost of not using a small amount of “carbon”. It feels extremely anti-social to this disgruntled observer.
I can only imagine what the cost would be if we didn’t have those three big nukes that supply 60% of our electric power. Or Niagara Falls; hydro supplies 24%. Why can’t Mother tell the world how little “carbon” Ontario is emitting already? Oh yes, now I remember. Nuclear power is bad because…. (isn’t it something about radiation killing people?). And hydro electric power is bad because, well, er, well, just because….
A major and overlooked benefit of carbon is the up welling natural gas
enriching soils dramatically in soils such as the very fertile Kansas and
the Ukraine. Microbes oxidizing the natural gas, fertilizing the topsoil,
the CO2 thus created further fertilizing the crops.
A stark example of the difference between soils fertilized by plumes
of natural gas and adjoining yellow jungle soils not so lucky is
Terra Preta in the Amazon, the difference erroneously attributed to
actions of long dead humans.
A better defined version of hydrocarbon fertilization is the natural gas
powering the islands of life at deep oceans “smoker” vents, first
imagined to be “sulfur” powered.
Good post Willis. I largely agree with your commentary but caution on trying to include what has been spent already when you say:
“Nowhere in any of this accounting do I find one of the largest and most important costs. This is how much it has cost us to date to fight CO2. There have been untold billions and billions of dollars wasted on Solyndras and useless studies and “Social Cost of Carbon” government boondoggles and all the rest of the money and human resources wasted. ”
These are sunk costs and do not belong in the cost benefit analysis themselves. If similar costs can be expected moving forward then absolutely those future costs need to be accounted for, which perhaps was your point.
Of course, these actions (Solyndra, etc) are fair game for any kind of post-mortem analysis of the carbon policy efforts (assuming society eventually sees the light) to try and learn from our mistakes.
MJB January 12, 2017 at 6:39 am
Thanks, MJB. These costs do belong in a cost-benefit analysis, but sadly, it is the tragic cost-benefit analysis of the entire enterprise of climate science … or what I was alluding to when I titled the post the “recursive cost” of carbon.
The bad news is thirty years of intense study of the climate has left us about where we started, still faffing about with the chimera of the so-called “climate sensitivity” and unable to even narrow the uncertainties that surround it. What of value has all of this billions of dollars bought us? Our prediction abilities have improved slightly, but we still cannot predict next years weather, much less next century’s average weather.
So where are the deliverables of this green climate fantasy, which one would hope would be worth an equivalent billions and billions of dollars? Yes, there are a few improvements around the margins, but where is the beef in this sandwich?
Any sane person looking at a real balance sheet of the global climate enterprise and seeing the total amount spent versus the pathetic value of the results would scream “Stop the waste of money!”, but nooo … instead, most of the climate activists are screaming “If we just had a bit more money we could do it! Pay my salary for another decade and we’ll have it!”
w.
The only reason progressive solutions don’t work is the government never spends enough money.
I have a rule of thumb of my own.
Putting the word “social” in front of anything negates it.
To understand what I mean, replace “social” with “not” and the true meaning is the same.
IE “social justice” equals “not justice”.
So “social cost” equals …
Social engineering. Which of course now means, “tricking someone into giving you their password”.
I came to the same rule.
Social science: not science.
Social movement: halt.
Social support: abandonment.
…
I keep trying to find an article about the VALUE of carbon, and, inevitably, the word, “value”, is substituted for the IDEA of NEGATIVE value (i.e., cost), which is an abusive slight of hand with language, in my opinion.
Here, for example, is an article that does this very slight of hand:
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/fr/infd-7wtdj4
There is ZERO talk of any … value whatsoever. Rather, the assumption is AUTOMATIC that there is NEGATIVE value ONLY (i.e., cost).
Here, shaking my head, is another article baiting readers with the notion of VALUING carbon, only to flip flop and add the word “reduction” to the word “value” to discuss “value in REDUCING carbon” :
http://www.wri.org/publication/carbon-value-analysis-tool-cvat
And here you go again, … a long-winded market-analysis type presentation of …“valuation”, which inevitably morphs AUTOMATICALLY into its OPPOSITE concept of “cost”:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/carbon-valuation–2
CONCLUSION: With “carbon”, the word value = the word cost in most people’s minds. This is another twist of deviousness that is the mathemagic of climastrology.
Try to find the following – hope this works:
Craig D. Idso, Ph.D., published a paper in October 2013 entitled, “The Positive Externalities of Carbon Dioxide: Estimating the Monetary Benefits of Rising Atmospheric CO2 Concentrations on Global Food Production” (Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change © 2013, http://www.co2science.org).
The link at the end does not appear to work – my fault entirely. Short answer is that Dr. Idso calculates that increasing CO2 concentration is responsible for almost 30 trillion dollars over the time frame of 1961 – 2050 (actual to 2011, forecast thereafter). That is the equivalent of $4,554/second, …. , for 90 years (that is not a typo). Unfortunately the “green” movement – is it truly estimated at $1.5 trillion/year? – overwhelms this by an order of magnitude, to the tune of $47,532/second.
Ouch. No wonder formal media push climate catastrophe – thars money in them thar hills!!! Money doesn’t talk, it screams or swears (or both).
It does work ….
The link ……
: )
The world has inarguably become richer through the consumption of fossil fuels. Economic growth continues. Therefore, future generations will be richer than we are. They will be less rich than they could be if we divert resources away from productive activity to useless activity, n this case by placing regulatory burdens on economic activity. There is therefore a clear future social cost o carbon regulation. If the government would like to give me a grant, say £250,000, I will produce a formula to work out how geeat that cost is.
Now let us do an analysis of Oxygen (O2), where we totally forget its function in supporting life, and, instead focus (with a great sense of being disturbed) on its horrible effect of oxidizing metal, causing insidious destruction of civilization’s infrastructure, and the woeful free radical damage that it does on human cellular structures and functioning to cause premature death by aging.
And let us do a much needed analysis on Water (H2O — or should I say, “hydrogen”), where we focus on its destructive power in flooding, and its most unfortunate consequence of posing safety risks to young children who stray near deep vats of it, to say nothing of the emotional distress it causes when it falls from the sky on our big outdoor wedding party that we spent, say, $75,000 to stage.
The VALUE of Oxygen is the cost of its damage.
The VALUE of Water is the cost of its damage.
Down is up. Up is down. Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness, or, in the case, of climate assessments, … “empty headed”.
To Robert Kernodle,
That dangerous oxgyen causes billions of dollars of damage!
Oxidation (rust) of iron and steel.
But it does have its benefits !
;-}
SCC is definitely the premier fraud to bring down quickly and this fine essay shows that it is a no brainer to defeat it if logic and common sense still have a place at the table. It is the justification for all the multi trillions that have already been wasted and it’s real purpose of outsourcing to a new world order government is not even being concealed anymore.
The whole AGW exercise was really aimed at bringing the USA political economy down. All of Europe had willingly surrendered to a neomarxbrothers dystopia and couldnt bear the unfavourable comparison to a vibrant innovative and prosperous USA. It was bad advertising for what they were doing. Now we will see the US having to rescue Europe from itself once again, if it isn’t too late for all the other things they’ve do e to themselves.
Perhaps in the aftermath of the crash of this fool’s enterprise, the biggest problems will be dealing with the millions of displaced persons from the AGW wreckage, cleaning up the failed and uneconomic monstrosities erected to “solve” the imagined problem, recreating, repurposing and slimming down research institutions and universities, cleaning up scientific and social science journals and totally rededicating K-12 for proper education.
‘It is a chimera, a scientific mirage.’
True ,but its one on which many careers have been built and much money made hence why it will be protected to the death by those cost/benefit measure on this show all ‘benefit ‘
SCC with emperical climate sensitivity – a net benefit?
In Social cost of carbon – going, going, gone!, the Cornwall Alliance highlights:
See: Kevin Dayaratna, David Kreutzer, and Ross McKitrick “Empirically-Constrained Climate Sensitivity and the Social Cost of Carbon” 2016
See PDF
Just like the IPCC, they started by assuming something not in evidence. In this case, that the non-monetized effects of burning carbon-based fuels is negative. This bias alone invalidates their analysis.
One of the tricks is to count the “cost” at say 2100 but ignore how much this would have slowed economic growth and the rise of people out of poverty. For example, say that CO2 would mean we incur 5% GDP costs in 2100 (which would be a huge number, except that GDP will keep rising in general). If the cost of preventing that harm leads to 10% less GDP in 2100, then we are better off absorbing the cost than trying to prevent it. I can get a 0% deductible on my car insurance, but this is not cost effective and hardly anyone does that.
One of the consequences of taking SCC seriously is EU policy which is banning vacuum cleaners that are strong enough to work properly — ignoring the fact that power does not equal total energy use since people will vacuum longer with such a vacuum. Likewise electric kettles that don’t heat, dryers that don’t dry. New buildings in various places like Germany are so energy efficient that people can hardly live in them–no air circulation, too hot at times too cold at others. These efforts effectively reduce people’s standard of living.
Costs: The US Forest Service has diverted huge amounts of money to studying climate change instead of into research that would help with forest management.
EPA has spent untold millions on reports about climate change and distorted management recommendations (e.g. for water quality) to “account” for future climate with guidance that cannot be followed.
The US Fish & Wildlife service has listed some species based mainly on climate change (e.g., polar bears) even while admitting in other listings that future impacts can’t be predicted. Such listings have economic costs.
“This introduces a whole new host of uncertainties—how and when and even whether things will change on the input side (emissions), how and when and even whether things will change on the output side (temperatures),”
Until a signal of ACO2 can be found in the temperature record there can be no calculation of cost. The only pathway for ACO2 to cause damage is to effect temperature. All of the perceived avenues of cost rely on unnatural warming with the possible exception of ocean PH reduction which so far can not be measured well enough to tell if it is changing let alone find an anthropogenic signal. There are several papers now that demonstrate a lack of reasonable correlation of ACO2 and atmospheric CO2 further undermining any spurious contention that the warming measured is attributable to ACO2.
I think this line of reasoning underscores Willis contention that calculation of SCC is not science.
DMA wrote:
“Until a signal of ACO2 can be found in the temperature record there can be no calculation of cost.”
Don’t hold your breath DMA – you will not find “a signal of ACO2 in the temperature record”, because if it exists it is drowned out by “the signal of temperature in the CO2 record”, which is clearly larger and is dominant.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/12/06/quote-of-the-week-mcintyres-comment-to-dilbert-creator-scott-adams-on-climate-experts/comment-page-1/#comment-23625251
[excerpt]
Atmospheric CO2 lags temperature by ~9 months in the modern data record and also by ~~800 years in the ice core record, on a longer time scale.
Happy Holidays, Allan
Reference:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/31/watch-global-co2-jump-with-el-nino-over-time-then-look-at-the-whys/comment-page-1/#comment-2335540
[excerpts]
To falsify the false global warming alarmist hypothesis, one only has to show that CO2 lags and does not lead temperature, and why, which I have done.
…
My hypothesis was discussed extensively in 2008-2009, because it contradicted the popular notion that increasing atmospheric CO2 primarily caused rising temperature, which was false. Both sides of the fractious global warming debate (the warmists AND the skeptics) bitterly contested my hypothesis.
The close dCO2/dt relationship and resulting 9-month lag of CO2 after temperature is now generally accepted, even among many warmists. The best counter-argument the warmists have suggested is that the ~9-month lag “must be a feedback effect”, which is a cargo-cult argument:
“We KNOW CO2 drives warming (our paychecks depend on it), therefore it MUST BE a feedback effect.”
… Here is one depiction of the subject dCO2/dt vs T relationship, although I think it is slightly different mathematically from my own, which I suggest is technically more correct.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:1979/mean:12/derivative/plot/uah5/from:1979/scale:0.22/offset:0.14
If you want to check my math, the 2008 spreadsheet is here – see Figures 1 to 4.
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/CO2vsTMacRaeFig5b.xls
I used UAH LT and Hadcrut3 for temperatures, and global CO2 concentrations back to 1979. The dCO2/dt vs T correlation holds.
In a separate unpublished spreadsheet I used Hadcrut3 and Mauna Loa CO2 back to 1958 and the correlation still held.
I no longer use the surface temperature data, Hadcrut or other, because I have lost confidence in its accuracy, especially due to all the recent “adjustments”.
In conclusion, I remain reasonably confident that the future cannot cause the past (in our current space-time continuum). 🙂
Regards, Allan
Post Script:
Statistician Bill Briggs also examined my hypo in 2008 using a completely different approach, and supported my conclusion (even though I did not like his methodology much. because it only examined a 12-month lag).
http://wmbriggs.com/post/122/
See also Humlum et al, January 2013, written five years after my icecap.us paper:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921818112001658
Highlights
– Changes in global atmospheric CO2 are lagging 11–12 months behind changes in global sea surface temperature.
– Changes in global atmospheric CO2 are lagging 9.5–10 months behind changes in global air surface temperature.
– Changes in global atmospheric CO2 are lagging about 9 months behind changes in global lower troposphere temperature.
– Changes in ocean temperatures explain a substantial part of the observed changes in atmospheric CO2 since January 1980.
– Changes in atmospheric CO2 are not tracking changes in human emissions.
****************
FOR THE RECORD
The rate dCO2/dt changes ~contemporaneously with global temperature, and its integral atmospheric CO2 lags temperature by ~9 months in the modern data record.
Regards, Allan
“Carbon Dioxide in Not the Primary Cause of Global Warming: The Future Can Not Cause the Past”
by Allan M.R. MacRae, Calgary Alberta Canada
Published in January 2008, updated Feb. 6, 2008
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/CO2vsTMacRae.pdf
Excerpts:
There is strong correlation among three parameters: Surface Temperature (“ST”), Lower Troposphere Temperature (“LT”) and the rate of change with time of atmospheric CO2 (“dCO2/dt”) (Figures 1 and 2). For the time period of this analysis, variations in ST lead (occur before) variations in both LT and dCO2/dt, by ~1 month. The integral of dCO2/dt is the atmospheric concentration of CO2 (“CO2”) (Figures 3 and 4).
The IPCC states that increasing atmospheric CO2 is the primary cause of global warming – in effect, the IPCC states that the future is causing the past. The IPCC’s core scientific conclusion is illogical and false.
While further research is warranted, it is appropriate to cease all CO2 abatement programs that are not cost-effective, and focus efforts on sensible energy efficiency, clean water and the abatement of real atmospheric pollution, including airborne NOx, SOx and particulate emissions.
The tens of trillions of dollars contemplated for CO2 abatement should, given the balance of evidence, be saved or re-allocated to truly important global priorities.
Spreadsheet
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/CO2vsTMacRaeFig5b.xls
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1200189820058578&set=pcb.1200190656725161&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1200190153391878&set=a.1012901982120697.1073741826.100002027142240&type=3&theater
Moderator please:
Figure 1 is shown twice in in my post at 3:05am today.
Can you kindly replace the above two identical Figures 1 with the following:
Thank you.
[graph links snipped in this comment to avoid repeats – done -Anthony]
Nothing says science to lay people like myself than speculation by Committe. Don’t beleive this comports with the scientific method we were taught in school.
Lets hope Trump clears this underbrush.